Position groups that got a facelift in 2026

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1:24Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, we're chatting about the position groups around the NFL that just were made over this offseason, the groups that have changed the most and how that might mean we should recalibrate our expectations for those groups specifically and the units that they play for. I think this is a good thing to do every offseason because we have these kind of lingering understandings of what certain position groups feel like. And when they're totally remade in a single offseason, we should change our overall expectations for what that unit can be. We talked about at the beginning of the show, but the Bears offensive line from last year, I think is a really good example.

2:03Robert Mays: We started this show with like three or four different offensive lines that might have that different sort of feel. So really enjoyed this conversation with Dave and Derek. Let's get to it right now.

2:23Robert Mays: Every offseason, there are certain position groups around the league that just feel completely different than they did the year before. And I think it's important for us to clock those as we move through the offseason because it can and should, in a lot of situations, change the way we talk and think about a team. An example from last year, like the Bears offensive line, right? Like the Bears offensive line was completely remade last year, and it helped in part remake what the Bears were. And there are a lot of offensive lines we're going to talk about today, but I wanted to take some time, Derek, today just to kind of take a step back and think about some of the position groups that look entirely different than they did a year ago, whether it's guys coming back from injury, draft picks, free agent signings, and just sit with them a little bit as we kind of revamp what our expectations might be for those unit for those individual position groups and the units that they're a part of.

3:14and I actually prefer this framing over who are the most improved units because I think that that one's an easier one where it's just like I don't know some team traded for one superstar and obviously they're going to be better some of these are just like they're swapping out four of your five starters and I don't know if that makes them better but it makes them a hell of a lot different and maybe it's a stylistic thing or maybe we've just never seen this combination of players or whatever it's going to be like I think this framing opens up to like I don't know if this is better. It might just be a different color of the same thing.

3:42Robert Mays: Why I like doing this is that we have just certain ideas of like what position groups are. Even like the other day, Derek, on the mailbag, when we were talking about the Giants offensive line, and we kind of had to remind ourselves like the Giants offensive line feels different now than it's felt over the last couple of years, because in your mind, you have that week one Giants game from like three years ago just seared into your brain. And so I think it's important to just reconsider what they are, because sometimes we have these lasting images of what these groups can feel like. And for a lot of these, that's just no longer going to be the case.

4:14Robert Mays: The component parts are completely different.

4:15Derrik Klassen: And I really enjoy how many of these are a little bit sneaky because they're bound to be, and we're going to hit on them, but there are teams who do something, they either do a lot or they do something really big. And so it registers with you immediately. Oh, Dexter Lawrence is in Cincinnati now. Everybody knows that. And everybody understands that it's going to have some ripple effects, But there are at least a few on here that I think challenge your perception where once you dig into it and remind yourself how their offseason has gone, you're like, oh, yeah, that looks a hell of a lot different, even if it didn't register with me as it was happening.

4:47Robert Mays: So let's start with one that made a bit of news today. The Chargers signed David Njoku one year up to eight million dollars. And it's not just the Chargers tight end room, Derek. The way that I wanted to frame this is the Chargers like inline operation, like the in the formation players for the Chargers this year are just going to be extremely different. The two inline tight ends, like the non-pass catching options, you have Charlie Kohler and David Njoku there, and all three interior offensive linemen are going to be swapped out. And we're not leaning all the way into this part of the conversation, but some of these will include the fact that if guys were hurt last year, then our image of those position groups are colored by the fact that those guys weren't playing.

5:30Robert Mays: And for the Chargers, both of those tackles were hurt for a huge chunk of the year. And so even if those guys, Joe Walton, Richland, Slater were on the roster last year, the entire, again, into the formation, inline group of players for the Chargers this year is going to be very, very different than it was a season ago. I kind of want to start with the guard play because I feel like, you know, know the tackle play last year for them obviously a bunch of guys are getting hurt but the guards were they were not very good obviously and I knew you know they were obviously taking risks with the Becton signing and stuff like that but part of it is like yeah those guys were used to playing next to all-star tackle play and missed some of the uh missed those guys for a lot of the year and then the center play in Los Angeles was just not very good and so the the guys that those mid-tier you know lower replacement level guard players were flanked by were also not helping them a ton and So now you have your your star tackles back and then signing Tyler Biotish, who is again, I don't know if he's one of those like superstar standards, but he's a far, far more stable guy than they had had at that spot.

6:29Really, probably for the entirety time that Justin Herbert has been there. And then you bring in this is unnecessary.

6:35Robert Mays: Corey Linsley erasure that I'm not. Linsley was good in the beginning. It's been a while, though. It's been a while.

6:40Derrik Klassen: That feels like a so long ago. Yeah, that feels like a different era of Justin Herbert chargers.

6:46Robert Mays: Yeah, the Bozeman thing, swapping out Bozeman for Biotis, is even if it's just one position, I think it's important to remind ourselves how much of an upgrade that's going to be, even like you said, even if Tyler Biotis isn't a superstar-level player. Like, the moment they got him, almost immediately after Washington released him, that's a moment from the Chargers offseason I think you can get really excited about. The question is going to be what happens at those two guard spots and what that ends up looking like. I mean, the idea that you're bringing over Cole Strange from the Dolphins is one of those spots.

7:19Robert Mays: Obviously, Mike McDaniel knows a lot about Cole Strange. But the fact that you're taking a college center and likely moving him to guard, there's just so many different considerations with what that interior is going to look like and some of the lingering questions that we're going to have until we actually see it in practice.

7:35Derrik Klassen: It is funny because there's a unit we're going to talk about later in the show where a college guard might be playing center. And I feel really great about that. But asking a college center to play guard is it's not as common and it's not as normal. And we talk about how specific the skill set is for center and you can get away with being a little bit less of an athlete. Some centers are a little bit smaller. Jake Slaughter doesn't really fit that description, but it's it's interesting enough and unique enough. I brought it up a couple of weeks ago. It's just something that makes you wonder how it's going to work.

8:06Derrik Klassen: But looking at this in totality and especially I really wanted to talk about this after David Njoku signed on Monday, because the Chargers all of a sudden, this is one of the sneaky teams for me. It reminds me of moving into my house where our couch and our coffee table were the only thing that we really liked enough to bring with us. And you get there and you're like, all right, this looks empty and not very accommodating or hospitable. Like, what are we going to do here? And you kind of have to take a step back and be like, all right, Facebook Marketplace is going to have some good deals. My sister-in-law's got a chair that we can have.

8:42Derrik Klassen: And over enough months, you're like, look, look how this came together. Look how much better this looks without having to invest that much. And that's that's really how I feel about the Chargers. I mean, Biotis and Charlie Kohler were two exciting or excuse me, two signings that I was really excited about. You bring in Njoku after a couple months. I don't love any one thing on the offensive line in particular, but between Cole Strange and then obviously Jake Slaughter, but the two the two day three guards that they drafted as well. I'm like, all right, we can address this through sheer numbers.

9:13Derrik Klassen: Hopefully you get Alec Ingold to come with Mike McDaniel for Miami. So you can do your goofy fullback stuff. But between Alec Ingold and now the tight end room, that's going to be wild. By the way, the Dolphins ran 21 or 22 personnel 35 % of the time last year. So you're going to have a lot of options to do stuff like that. And of course, a Mike McDaniel offense is going to add plenty of speed between Keaton Mitchell and Brennan Thompson, too. I know I went further than the inline options.

9:40Robert Mays: But it's important to think about just like what the offense is going to feel like overall. I'm curious, Derek, are you buying this? Like, are you buying these changes in totality? Is this enough for you to be excited about what the Chargers offense can look like, considering Mike McDaniel is going to be in charge of pushing the buttons with this thing? I think because it's Mike McDaniel. Yes. And I do feel like they picked a lot of the right like skill sets. Like Strange is a good mover. And Slaughter, I think, is actually a really good athlete for the center position. He's just kind of like Dave said, he's a very bizarre center body.

10:11He's a bigger guy. He's longer. He's like thicker in the lower body, which is just kind of a weird center body type. So I kind of get why they're moving him at guard. And I could actually see him being like a good second and third level mover in like more of a zone based scheme there. And then obviously Biotis, I think, can tie it all together. And then bringing in Njoku, who is not the athlete that he was maybe four or five years ago, but is still a good movable piece. Like Kohler is a good blocker. ingold is a far more athletic uh fullback than they had previously with um scott matlock that that's very different types of players very different kind of full it's funny like both of

10:45Robert Mays: the it's the ravens going from kyle use check to patrick ricard it's yes it's the opposite now well it's funny too because it's the greg roman like 21 22 personnel offense is like one thing and then mike mcdaniel is going to use a lot of the same personnel technically like in terms of like what the numbers are but it's just going to look and feel so much different and so I'm excited about that I think the other small part of it I'm buying with the slaughter pick it insulates them pretty well if Biotis does get hurt now he's a guy who like does not really get hurt he's he's been an iron man for pretty much the entirety of the time that he's been in the league in terms of like not missing a ton of games but if he does you at least have a good backup plan here like okay this guy played center in college we're not going to be dead in the water of the way that we felt like we were last year at that position.

11:30Derrik Klassen: I don't even want to get too far ahead of myself and say, I think the Chargers offense is going to be an elite sort of unit. I just think they have the potential to be so interesting. Like the stuff that they have available to them between the bodies and the size. I mean, they've got, they now have the personnel with like Kohler and being a team that's probably going to use a fullback very often. We didn't get to see the best of Amari and Hampton last year. And so I think they have the personnel to lean into that. If the offensive line is relatively healthy and they could be a very smash mouth team.

12:05Derrik Klassen: But they also have so many guys with juice. I mean, they drafted the fastest receiver in the draft. And even if Brennan Thompson's not a volume guy, like he's there for a reason. Keaton Mitchell is there for a reason. Lad McConkie is not a slow guy. And then they've got field stretchers like Quentin Johnson and Trey Harris. Like this is a team that seems like it could be very amorphous and change its approach widely based on what they want to do and who they're game planning against. And I just think it could be very, very fun to watch.

12:37Robert Mays: Yeah, this is one of those units that, again, you have a certain understanding of what you think the Chargers offensive line is based on last year. And I just think for a bunch of different reasons, it's going to feel much, much different this year than it did a year ago. Let's stick with some offensive lines. The Browns offensive line is entirely remade. Like we've got essentially five new starters for the Browns offensive line. Spencer Fano left tackle, Zion Johnson at left guard. Speaking of the Chargers, Elton Jenkins at center, Tevin Jenkins penciled in as the right guard right now. And then Titus Howard back at right tackle.

13:06Robert Mays: For reference, last year, we had Cam Robinson play the majority of snaps at left tackle. Joe Petonio played the whole season at left guard, but he was the only one. Ethan Pochich was hurt for half the year at center. Wyatt Teller missed a handful of games. And then Katie Leveston played the majority of the snaps at right tackle because even if Jack Conklin's been on that team for the last several years, it's been a while since we saw a high-volume Jack Conklin. So you're really looking at five new guys for the Browns offensive line next year, Derek. This is one of those units that I hope it's better.

13:39Robert Mays: You hope it ends up being better, but the fact that it's five new guys, obviously it's going to have a much, much different feel in Cleveland next year. Where I'm trying to wrap my head around it is like the tackles almost have to be better, right? You draft the first round pick there and then Fano's really talented. I know he's moving from right back to left, but I think he's talented enough to handle it. And then you bring in Titus Howard, who has been pretty good at tackle, pretty decent at tackle for a lot of the time that he's been there. So that should be better. But I think the guards are also taking a step back.

14:08You're going to Tevin Jenkins, who has not been a longtime starter in a couple of years now. Zion Johnson, I think, was pretty shaky and just got moved off of the offensive line that we were just talking about with the Chargers, who needed a little bit of interior help. So I, this is the unit where, like you said, it should be better, but I kind of just throw my hands up with this one. Like I, this is a unit where there's so many different moving pieces and so many players that outside of how excited I am for the tackles. I just don't really know what to make of the interior. Like, like this is a unit where the vacillations could go, could go anywhere almost.

14:41Robert Mays: I'd also mentioned they drafted Austin Barber in the third round. Is he somebody that could potentially be in the mix at guard? That's just one thing to mention. I think I feel we'll see what happens at the right guard spot. The Zion Johnson part of this is interesting because I think the argument for why Zion Johnson is worth paying what the Browns paid him in free agency this year, obviously you have the second contract thing where you're hoping his best football is in front of him. But I do think he played better down the stretch than he did for the majority of last season. And like you mentioned, Derek, the play on either side of him last year was a mess for most of the season.

15:15Robert Mays: And so if you can make an argument that by playing next to Spencer Fano, even if he's a rookie and Elton Jenkins has a just solid piece, and then you get the version of Zion Johnson we saw over the last four or five weeks last year, is that something where, again, his best football is in front of him? And that spot looks a little bit better midway through this season than your opinion of Zion Johnson from the first four years of his career might lead you to believe. The center one is, to me, one of the more interesting ones, because even if Elton Jenkins is a name that we know and are used to, he hasn't played a ton of center in the NFL, and he got hurt for a majority of last year.

15:50Robert Mays: So that's one where even if he's been around for a very long time, I still think there's a little bit of guesswork in terms of how well that part of it specifically is going to work out. Yeah, 100%. And I feel like when they moved him to center in Green Bay, he was not happy about it. No, and I don't think he looked very comfortable at it. No. And so that was why when they signed him, I was like, they're really signing him to play center or like he agreed to be center. Maybe he's more comfortable with it now than he was. And he's totally OK with doing that. Or maybe teams were more uncomfortable moving him back to guard after having not seen it.

16:22I don't know. But how this interior shakes out, I think I do just have a lot of questions. Titus Howard to me is like, don't really have to think about it. He's going to be solid. And then again, I like Fano, but the interior, I just, this feels like this could be a totally average, solid middle of the pack interior. But I feel like if a lot of these guys play towards their lower level, like it could be one of the worst in the league. If again, Jenkins gets banged up and like maybe Austin Barber doesn't look very good in relief duty. Maybe Elton Jenkins doesn't really play up to what his potential level could be.

16:52Maybe Zion Johnson defaults back to what he had been for the first four years of his career. Like it, it does feel like the bottom is pretty low for this, even if the ceiling is, is pretty solid.

17:01Derrik Klassen: What would, what would be success for this group is what I come, come to where like you had to remake this entire thing. And for me, I think like Spencer Fano and Zion Johnson are the two for me that stand out. Spencer Fano, because he's a top 10 pick. Zion Johnson, I believe they gave him five years, right? Or was it four? You can't get out of it for at least two or three years. I mean, it's a healthy contract.

17:24Robert Mays: I mean, it's three years, 50 million.

17:26Derrik Klassen: Oh, it's only a three-year deal?

17:27Robert Mays: For Zion Johnson. But there's 33 of that is guaranteed.

17:30Derrik Klassen: Yeah, I think it's two full years of that guaranteed. It's a hard deal to get out from, even though it's a shorter deal. So those are the two that stand out to me. I mean, I know Titus Howard got a sizable amount of money as well, but that's a tackle salary. And I also, I think I feel better about him as a player. And Elton Jenkins was, what, two years, I believe?

17:48Robert Mays: And so, yeah, Elton Jenkins was two years at 12 million. and Titus Howard was two years,$45 million, with 35 of that guaranteed for Titus Howard. The void years on the end of all these are wild. It's how the Browns operate these days, but there's a ton of them on each one of these contracts.

18:04Derrik Klassen: If Spencer Fano is a hit, and at least one of these deals just isn't a disaster, that feels like a good starting point for me. Like I said, I feel confident about the Titus Howard deal. Even if he's not a top-tier offensive tackle, I just I would guess that's not going to completely submarine what you're trying to do here over the next two or three years.

18:25Robert Mays: What do you think is a realistic expectation, Derek? Like is middle of the pack, like if they're the 17th best offensive line in the league, do you think that's a reasonable expectation? That to me feels like a 90th percentile type of outcome. That's fair. And so I think it's probably more realistic that they're like 22 where it's not completely sinking the team, but it doesn't really feel like a strength for them. And, you know, maybe the young players are still up and down or Zion Johnson's a little bit volatile, like 20, the 22 range where it's not. Oh, my God, nuclear bad. But I'm not sure this is helping us every week is kind of where I fall.

18:59Robert Mays: My the one curiosity I have is that obviously with Jenkins and Howard, we've seen them play a bunch of different positions. I mean, Tyus Howard played both guard spots, mostly left guard for the Texans last year. But he had one game at right guard. I think he spent the first half of the season a tackle last year and then moved to guard for the back half of the season. And so, I mean, he can play multiple positions. We know Allen Jenkins can play multiple positions. If a couple of these draft picks are potentially in the mix more than we think they might be, is it a situation where Jenkins plays guard and Parker Brailsford plays center?

19:31Robert Mays: The fact that you do have some flexibility with those guys, I think, just adds another layer of interest to me because are these pieces more movable than we're treating them right now? that might be their ideal outcome if parker brails for an i don't know enough about him we'd have to go ask dane uh if he can somehow be like viable enough that he takes the center spot and then the right guard spot can be jenkins where again i think he's more comfortable at guard this probably feels pie in the sky but like they could that that probably is the ideal outcome well the stakes just

20:00Derrik Klassen: also aren't that high for the browns right now we know what this year is for cleveland and that's not to say you're gonna bench starters that are making a lot of money for no reason but if you need to shuffle for some reason because somebody's struggling or somebody inevitably gets hurt that's damn near a guarantee with an offensive line it's nice to know that you've got a few young interesting pieces that you can plug in there and if this year is just a lot about finding a five that you feel good about that's going to be there for at least a few years yeah I'm way on board

20:29Robert Mays: with that another unit the team that lost Titus Howard and gained Wyatt Teller is the Texans who also are going to have a very new look offensive line this year I was going to bring them up

20:39Derrik Klassen: because that's the difference is the Texans were in a similar situation last year. And it was like, no, but you have expectations like your playoff caliber team. You've got a defense that could almost get you to the Super Bowl. This is not the time to say, well, I hope we have a best five at some point during the season. So and it's so great that the Texans. Decided not to do that again this year. I'm really happy that the Texans threw some resources at the problem this time around.

21:08Robert Mays: right now i'm curious how many new starters we'll see on the texans offensive line i think and that question comes down to whether keelan rutledge ends up playing center for them early and right now he's penciled in to do that based on i talked to people there right after the draft i was like do you think he can play center quickly and i think they believe he can from a mental standpoint i don't know if that's like the day one plan so i wonder if he actually starts at guard and starts as depth for Wyatt Teller, who's been consistently banged up. And we see Jake Andrews in there again to start the season.

21:41Robert Mays: Obviously, the more exciting outcome here is that Rutledge plays from day one at center and you have a completely remade offensive line. I just don't know how quickly that happens.

21:49Derrik Klassen: I do think it's important to pump the brakes a little bit with Keelan Rutledge. And I've been a cheerleader of his since he got drafted. It's hard not to fall in love with his approach and his all about ball style. He he had another clip over rookie minicamp weekend where he was like, yeah, I don't I don't own a pair of slacks. I wore jeans to my wedding. And I was like, this guy is going to be a Hall of Famer. This guy's incredible. That's not actually how it works. Like just because he's a very fun down to business prospect doesn't mean it's going to be that simple. So I think that's worth pointing out that he did.

22:23Derrik Klassen: I mean, I mentioned it that Keelan Rutledge is who I was talking about with Jake Slaughter. Jake Slaughter practiced at center. He did. He did it at the senior bowl. he was a right guard for his last two years at Georgia Tech he hasn't done this a lot at the NFL level I think it's at worst it's at least worth saying let's see how this goes let's not just assume this guy's a rookie pro bowler at center how much better do you think the Texans offensive line is right now than it was at the end of last season Eric so that one's kind of tricky to to figure out i think smith hmm i think they are better i think they are obviously better i would say like oh man am i drinking the kool-aid if i don't like that i don't think this is a hard question to answer they're definitely better i don't know if it's a shitload better i'm trying to say are they like can they get into like the top 10 of offensive line because i think when you make as many additions as they do that is rich that's what i'm saying but like i think where this actually gets complicated for me is not necessarily the additions they've made because I like the additions like I still think White Teller has good ball in him Brighton Smith if he's healthy he can play I really like Rutledge as a prospect I'm curious to see how much better Ariante Roussery gets yeah because I think he was quietly solid last year as a tackle but because the overall offensive line health was still pretty middling in Houston and then there were just so many other bigger name tackles that were kind of overlooking him in that class like Armand Membu kelvin banks will campbell was a big name that people were talking about like it just nobody really gave a shit that ariante ursury was playing like pretty solid ball and so i'm curious to see how he develops i think my thing with this offensive line it's just so clearly an attitude move like rutledge rutledge and teller just want to put two hands in your chest and drive you into the dirt and then brayden smith himself is a guy who can really move people and so i'm just for a team that tried to get so heavy and like more downhill, more duo, more like gap style runs last year.

24:19I'm excited that they went out and got like all the exact body types that you would want to do that.

24:24Robert Mays: I think it's a 100 % an attitude thing. I feel like this is a, how can we make our offense feel a little bit more like our defense? And can that manifest on the offensive line specifically? I think that's absolutely what it is. My fear is if Wyatt Teller gets banged up, which he's done consistently over the last few years, if he misses half the season and you're moving Rutledge in there as you're starting left guard. Now, how much better is it than last year's group? Really? You have a rookie playing where you had Titus Howard playing. It's all going to come down to how much better nursery is.

24:54Robert Mays: And then how much of an upgrade Braden Smith is over that Trent Brown, like Blake Fisher combination at right tackle. And that probably is an upgrade. It absolutely is. But if, if, if Teller gets hurt, and then you're maybe not upgrading two different spots at left guard and center compared to what you had last year, how much better is it actually going to look? I guess that's my fear. That's

25:15Derrik Klassen: health for Braden Smith and Wyatt Teller is certainly worth bringing up. And that I didn't even mention Braden Smith's health, but that's absolutely something that's worth mentioning. If they're healthy, though, I like this so much. And Trent Brown becoming your swing tackle in a perfect world, obviously. But if Ursary is playing well enough to keep that job and hopefully better and Braden Smith is healthy, having Trent Brown as your swing tackle is a very nice place to be. And that's one thing I noticed when I was looking at this, where I was like, man, Trent Brown as OT three. He's got to be one of the better swing tackles if that's where he winds up, right?

25:50Derrik Klassen: Like if he plays a significant chunk of the season as your swing tackle.

25:54Robert Mays: I don't know how great I would feel about that. He's 33. Like he played last year, but it had been a while since he was like a consistent contributor to a team. He started seven games last year.

26:05Derrik Klassen: I'm having a guy with that many snaps and that many starts as your third tackle is not there are teams that have them, but it's not something you can bank on in the NFL. Like that, like tackle play is extremely good. Tackle play is extremely hard to come by. I think I think you're.

26:24Robert Mays: Ascribing more certainty and safety to that than I probably would be. That's what I would say.

26:30Derrik Klassen: It's still better than asking him to start because that's the state of your offensive line, which was the case last year. Well, last year it was asking him to play because Blake Fisher couldn't. Right. It's better than going into the year and being like our young player sucks. If he has to play three or four games, it's probably fine. But I do lean on the side of like somebody that big, once they start to get a little bit older, like the cliff could just, you snap a finger and they're just like, don't have it anymore.

26:53Robert Mays: That's kind of where I'm at too. But again, I think overall, the overall depth, the amount that they've invested in it, there is a reason to believe that this will be better than it was last year and that this unit will feel and this unit and the offense will feel much different. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about the last offensive line that we're going to hit. So summer's just about here. And my older daughter, she just turned five. She keeps asking my wife and I, when are we going on vacation? When are we going on vacation? When are we going on vacation?

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31:22Robert Mays: the Arizona Cardinals also are going to have several new offensive linemen this year, really three last year. Paris Johnson only played 12 games, which I think is worth mentioning. So he missed five games last year. He'll obviously be back at left tackle. They signed Isaac Salamado at guard. They still have Yelta for a hold at center, but then Chase Basontas is going to be playing right guard, presumably. And then Elijah Wilkinson is probably be playing right tackle for them. Wilkinson had to play last year. He's been somebody that's bounced around. It's like a swing tackle for a very long time.

31:49Robert Mays: But at the very least, we're going to have three new starters for this Cardinals offensive line, Derek. And then we're going to have Paris Johnson, hopefully for more than 12 games. So overall, Arizona is going to feel different up front than they have really over the last couple of seasons, especially a guard. I'm really again, this kind of goes back to an attitude thing where I think say O'Malu is a guy who can move people. And part of what the big thing with the Sontis was like, he I think is a fine mover at the second level and stuff like that. And he can find his moving targets and all that.

32:16But his big thing was just like, I think his hand technique and his lower body power when he is really getting into people was just, it was really, really striking. And so I think for them, trying to get that style of attitude along the interior and then having a center who you can actually move. So you can do a lot of these like guard down blocks and nose in the end for a hole can get out into space, like being able to do a lot of that stuff, which they did relatively well in 2024. obviously in 20 we were excited about that and then 2025 it kind of all fell apart and so I'm excited for where they're going with this Wilkinson is not the like sexiest signing in the world but he played like serviceably well for Atlanta last year like he perfectly fine plug

32:54Robert Mays: and play starter so he was a perfectly fine plug and play starter last year that that's my problem with this is that he I was really impressed with him last year especially early in the season because I was terrified about what that was going to look like for Atlanta you're down to your offense at your third right tackle, essentially before the season even starts, how's that going to go? And I thought he acquitted himself very well. But we're talking about a guy who right now is 31 years old. He's been in the league since 2017. And he's been a back half of the roster guy for a good chunk of that.

33:28Robert Mays: And so walking into the season with him as your day one starter at right tackle, it was part of my frustration with the process for the Cardinals in the first round of the draft just because I think those guys are hard to find. But overall, I think that you have to admit that they are in much better shape, especially on the interior than they have been in a very long time there. I'm fully willing to admit that.

33:51Derrik Klassen: This whole show is about like mental images and like breaking yourself of those memories. And you're right, considering what happened to the Cardinals and the injury or excuse me, the Falcons and the injuries they had to deal with Elijah Wilkinson did play serviceably, but I just feel like I have horror memories of the Rams game, which ironically the Falcons wound up winning. Remember that crazy Monday night or at the end of the year, but it was a rough night for Elijah Wilkinson. And that's like burned into my brain. I think it's fair to point out over to overall, he played better last year than what my memory is telling me from that one game.

34:27Derrik Klassen: I do agree with you. Cause I, when you draft Jeremiah Love and when you could have potentially had a Fano or a Francis Maui Noah, I think that's what I wanted the Cardinals to do. But across the entirety of the offensive line, if Elijah Wilkinson is your right tackle for the time being, this is serviceable. I, I'm not going to back off the fact that I think there are things you could have done rather than take a running back at this point in your roster build. Even if, you know, even if you don't get the price that you want, I think you could have traded back and felt better about adding a pick and still taking an offensive lineman.

35:03Derrik Klassen: And then you'd feel really good about this. But I do think it's very fair to say for where the Cardinals are and for how we view them, I think overall, this offensive line is better than it would get credit for on the outside.

35:15Robert Mays: I think overall, the offense period is in pretty good shape. My problem, and I think that there There were so many different conversations happening with the Jeremiah Love thing in the top five. And I actually do think for 2026 specifically, the Cardinals and that supporting cast is actually set up okay. And the right tackle being the biggest question. My bigger question is what's it going to look like two years from now? You know, with the long-term considerations and how you've put this thing together. And two years, because now next year, you're likely going to be using a first-round pick on a quarterback next year.

35:48Robert Mays: So you're probably not going to be using that first-round pick on a tackle. So where is that tackle going to come from? So in the short term, when you look at the upgrades to the offensive line and just how exciting the pass catchers are overall, like there is a world where this does come together as a pretty good supporting cast. I think that's a different conversation than was this the best use of your resources on a multi-year level as you think about the long-term future of how you're building the team. I think I probably agree with that aspect of it in terms of potentially trading down and like you just take whatever price you can get.

36:19But in my mind, if they did that, they almost certainly should have just taken a defensive player because I think their front was so like, you know, dearth of talent. And so I think either way, they probably weren't going to have their tackle right now. I think the other thing that I at least enjoy about the Wilkinson signing is like they are paying him peanuts. He's there for free, basically. And so if he's. But that cuts both ways. Right. No, exactly. Exactly. But like if he's if if both of the guard spots are significantly better or at least like some degree of better, let's say 20 percent better than they were last year, because I think they struggled at that spot.

36:52And the right tackle spot is not really any worse than what they got out of like Jonah Williams at certain stretches. It was mostly Cal and Beecham last year. Yeah, and Beecham had been a problem for them for like three years. And so if he's at least like a hair better than that and they're paying him nothing, I think that's fine. I don't just agree with that.

37:10Robert Mays: And I actually do think that's it for this exercise specifically. That's the right way to think about it, where the right tackle play, even if you have questions about Elijah Wilkinson, may not be worse this year than it was last year. And so, again, let's separate these things. It was this the best way to build the offensive line on the offense overall this offseason? Maybe not. Are the Cardinals set up way better potentially this year than they were last year in the year before? That also, I think, can be yes. And so that's kind of where I sit with this. The Salamala thing is just like, again, in 2026, they're going to be better.

37:44Robert Mays: This is his age 33 season. So like that being the move they made in free agency, is he still going to be playing at that level two years or a year from now when you bring in a rookie quarterback? Like that to me is like, again, the multi-year element of this and how much better are they in the short term? Those are two different conversations because I think they're absolutely better in the short term. Whether this was the best approach on a multi-year level, that's I think that's my the question that I sit with. The other one I'd throw out, I mean, we talk about the Cardinals. The defensive line is also going to look a lot different just based on who they lost and who they brought in.

38:18Robert Mays: Tomlinson and Calais Campbell both got like 500 snaps last year. And they brought back Roy Lopez in the interior this year. And so just the interior of the Cardinals defensive line with losing Tomlinson and Campbell, bringing back Roy Lopez, and then Walter Nolan being hurt, there's going to be a very different feel to certain elements of the Cardinals defense too, in part because of how banged up they were last year.

38:40Derrik Klassen: Cardinals are a quarterback away from being a team that I could get pretty excited about in totality. And by pretty excited, I just mean scrappy. I'm intrigued by the scrappiness, but the quarterback thing is, it's just, it's a year away.

38:56Robert Mays: I'm still in wait and see mode. I think there are enough questions about the offensive line and at certain elements of the defense. And again, like at a multi-year level, who's going to be rushing the passer for them next year when Zayvon Collins and Baron Browning and all those guys are gone. I mean, even those guys barely do that.

39:13Derrik Klassen: Intrigued by, and I think they're going to be a good team, are completely different things. My bar for being intrigued by a team is just not very high, clearly.

39:22Robert Mays: Speaking of defensive lines, the Bengals' defensive line is also a group that has been completely remade this offseason. Dexter Lawrence, Jonathan Allen, Boye Amafé, Cassius Howell, all in there, all likely to play pretty big roles considering what the investments looked like. This is one that is very much at the core of the exercise where like the Bengals defensive line and the bodies on the defensive line, Derek, we have to rethink what our expectations should be for what the Bengals are up front. If it doesn't feel drastically different this year than it felt last year, this team is in really big trouble.

39:57They are in massive trouble. Dude, and so here's actually speaking of that, Here's where I got with this. At first, I was like, well, they traded for Dexter Lawrence. Mafe's really fun. They draft Cassius Howell. Like, OK, we're going, we're going, we're going. And then I look at Dexter Lawrence in the middle of a front that has a lot of now like race car type of pass rushers and linebackers behind them that we are not certain can play. Like the Bengals and it feels a lot like the like outside of Jonathan Allen, who I do think is a better defensive tackle than any of the other ancillary pieces that the Giants had.

40:29outside of that it feels very very much like the giant situation and even then like i think there's reason to be excited about like the the mafe signing and stuff like that those guys are not brian burns and abdul carter and so it's just even that it starts to the more i looked at it the more i was like i'm actually not certain how much better this is going to be even if i was really excited when they obviously made the trade for dexter lawrence can i spin it for you in a positive way can i try to talk you into i still want to be i still want this to be good i still want to buy it A couple things.

41:00Robert Mays: B.J. Hill is like a serviceable NFL player. Like when B.J. Hill was the best player on your defensive line, which at times it did feel like he was when Trey Hendrickson was hurt last year, that's not a place you want to be. If he's the sixth best player on your defensive line, you're in a much better position. And right now, if things break right, that might be the case. And so I do think that when you bring back some of the guys from last year, there are starters that become depth pieces, and maybe you can get a little bit more excited about that. And then the body types on the edge, like the fact that you still have Miles Murphy, Shamar Stewart, you still have those bigger body defensive ends to kind of pair with, and Mafe's not a small guy, but Mafe's got some juice, Cassius Howell has some juice.

41:43Robert Mays: I do think that the collection of bodies and the potential waves you could throw at teams, if you see maybe a smaller step forward from Miles Murphy, even though I thought he played better last year, and then Shamar Turner, or Shamar Turner, Shamar Stewart does get better in year two. I do think the combination of all of it does leave you with the potential for this to feel much, much different and come together in a way that actually does make sense. That's a good point. Like the body types thing, because the Giants didn't really have that. Like a lot of the Giants guys are smaller and not really like super stout edge setters.

42:16I mean, Brian Burns is a good run defender, but in a kind of different way. And then the depth, again, like the Giants defensive tackle depth was just not very good outside of Dexter Lawrence. Yeah, it was zero. And so the fact that the Bengals do have three, four guys potentially deep that are not, maybe not the sexiest players, but like BJ Hill can get into the backfield and do some stuff. So you brought me back around from Doomerism a little bit. I think when I was just looking at the starting like pass rush unit, I was like, man, this feels just a lot like the Giants. But I do think that that's a good argument with the depth and the body types.

42:46Derrik Klassen: Well, I think there's a key difference too. And it's what gets me on board with this is I'm not asking the Bengals defense to actually be good. They just have to be something that can get in the way on occasion, which they so many times were not. Like, the Giants did not have an offense like this. The Giants could not reasonably expect their offense to score 28 to 34 points a week. The Bengals can. So, like, I'm not, I don't need that big of a leap. I just need you to be, I do think for what they spent on Dexter Lawrence, I always joke, I just need you to be regular bad. I need the Bengals to be a little better than regular bad.

43:26Derrik Klassen: So here, but not, they don't need to be great.

43:28Robert Mays: Here's my pushback to that. If the Bengals defense is regular bad, what do you think the actual expectations are for the 2026 Bengals? What do you think you can accomplish if the defense is only regular bad? Win the division? I don't know. That feels like a lot to me. I think I the reason that I'm like kind of pushing on this a little bit is that I this is something I've often said where it's like, all right, if the offense is top five and the defense can get to regular bad, is that enough for you to be like a real player? And I wonder if we're at a place now where that's just not good enough with like how good the defenses are on the best teams in the league and how consistently good those defenses have been over the last four or five years.

44:14Robert Mays: Are we at a place where if your defense is still just regular bad? Are you serious?

44:19Derrik Klassen: I think that's a valid point. And I'm just, and I probably should be for what they've spent and wanting to keep a franchise quarterback of Joe Burrow's caliber happy. I'm not all the way. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not thinking or talking about the Bengals as being a Superbowl contender. I think that stuff needs to be there for you to contend to win the Superbowl. But we talked about this on a show recently. Let's get the Bengals back to a place of respectability before we worry about that and i do think with a mediocre ish bad ish defense i mean this team could win the afc north i i and and obviously joe burrow's got to stay healthy that's been a big problem as well i think

44:59Robert Mays: it's two separate questions with a mediocre to bad defense could they win the could they win the afc north and does this defense have a chance to be better than mediocre to bad sure i i i kind of wonder if they do because on top of the defensive line stuff brian cook at safety and like a human being that can tackle people on the second and third level of the Bengals defense is a really nice change of pace for me on the third level. Yes, the linebackers would still make me wake up in a cold sweat. But I thought the corners played pretty well last year. I thought DJ Turner was great. Like, is there a world where the remade Bengals defensive front can actually turn the Bengals into like the 12th best defense in the league?

45:38Robert Mays: I'm not totally ruling that out as a real possibility.

45:41Derrik Klassen: It's an optimistic viewpoint, but it's not completely insane to think that Dexter Lawrence could be that guy, the guy that we remember from a couple years ago, who's a defensive player of the year candidate before he gets hurt. And a, if Dexter Lawrence is that guy, all bets are off because I just think it makes life that much easier on the rest of your front. If Boye Mafé plays like he's worth that contract, I love, I wound up loving this landing spot for Jonathan Allen, because before Dexter Lawrence gets there, you're like, he's like, he's still a good player. But is he the Jonathan Allen that you remember from Washington?

46:17Derrik Klassen: I would argue no. But if Dexter Lawrence is playing next to him for as many snaps as I would guess, I think it's going to let him do what he still does best, which is just penetrate and cause havoc in the backfield. So I think this is the type of situation that could extend Jonathan Allen's good years. And so, yeah, if If Shamar Stewart takes another step forward, if Miles Murphy keeps playing well, if Cassius Howell gives you something, I mean, we just listed like six guys. Again, it's an optimistic viewpoint, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that this is a really, really impressive front.

46:52So the Panthers last year were 15th in points allowed as a defense. Can they be that good? I still have my doubts about that. And obviously points allowed is not a perfect metric. that depends a lot on who you're playing and all that stuff and it's not as sound as epa or dvoa

47:08Robert Mays: but like there's a 22nd in defensive dvoa 23rd in weighted defensive dvoa even then i'm not sure the bangles are going to be a whole lot better than that i i think they could be i think part of it is if they either had a new defensive coordinator or one i was excited about you could get me there to like 15th 16th in the league something like that like if lou was still there You could maybe get me there.

47:33Derrik Klassen: They scapegoated Lou, and now you're telling me that if they had Lou, you'd be more excited about this? Well, yes, I think he's good.

47:40Robert Mays: I'm with him on this, and I'm dancing around this as like an idea. But I think, and I'm trying to like go back and think about the mistakes that I made and that we made in kind of projecting things last year and projecting things moving forward. I'm wondering if we're at a place where if a new coordinator comes in and that guy isn't immediately a difference maker, immediately, year one, instantaneous, first glance, like that guy is making the players on this defense better, should we have any faith that it's going to happen in year two? Like obviously incremental gains can happen, but if it is an abject disaster, even if you're making the players considerably better, what should your realistic expectations be for that group in the second season under that coach.

48:25Robert Mays: I think that overall, I probably want to be doing a better job of reining in those expectations, even if the talent level is getting significantly better.

48:35Derrik Klassen: It seems so wild to set that sort of time limit. Like we used to think two or three years wasn't enough time. And to say one, like, you know, after one year, but at the same time, I watched the Spingles defense. I can't give them too much of a vote of confidence, even if the personnel is that much more better.

48:55Robert Mays: This isn't a situation where like, if you're not a top five defense that year, that you're not doing a good job. It's that if you are, you have to be again, better than a disaster. And I think this is the case with both the Jets and the Bengals this year, where it's like, all right, we swapped out a ton of players. Are these units going to be better with, I know the Jets defensive coordinator is different, but Aaron Glenn is going to be calling the defense. Like after what we saw last year, how much faith do we have in this group to maximize even what is a better collection of players. I think it's just a question worth asking a little bit harder than I have over the last couple of years because I think it's led to some missteps in projecting what these teams are going to be.

49:34Robert Mays: And I just, I 100 % agree with Derek and his concerns here. That's kind of where I'm at. It's just harder to see the ceiling this way, I think.

49:42Derrik Klassen: I can't get all the way there with this. And some of that is because the Bengals have burned me in previous years. But like I said, I think, and we have we have very recent examples of you know we talked I think we talked about the Seahawks where they had eight different things click into place that not everybody was expecting to happen and it turned them into even if you were optimistic about the Seahawks and thought of them as like a playoff team it turned them into way better of a team than most

50:10Robert Mays: people anticipated ahead of time I mean I thought last well two things one they finished 10th in defensive DVOA Seattle did in 2024. Yeah. Even if the first stretches of the first half of the season, it looked a little bit ugly and they were figuring stuff out. They trade Furnace Jones, things kind of start falling into place. They still finished 10th that year, but I think a lot of people thought they could be the best defense in the league last season.

50:32Derrik Klassen: No, I mean, I mean, multiple things. I mean, I include JSN in that as well, like JSN just turning into,

50:39Robert Mays: but that's year one of a play caller. That's year one. And so that's the thing is these like really surprising leaps forward often happen when a guy is there in year one. And there are examples, but like a lot of the examples I hang on to when it comes to, all right, solid in year one, insane in year two, are like the 2015-2016 Falcons. But even like the 2015 Falcons were like the 14th best offense in the league. And so it doesn't have to happen all at once immediately, but I think asking a team with the same coordinator, offense or defense, to go from being one of the three or four worst in the league, to decidedly above average, even with an infusion of talent.

51:17Robert Mays: I just want to be a little bit more skeptical and cautious when we're projecting those sorts of leaps forward.

51:24Derrik Klassen: And that's why I'd set the ceiling for the Bengals at more like, I mean, bottom half of the league still. Like if the Bengals could be up around 20, that would be a massive success story, in my opinion. To your point, is that good enough to, I mean, I think that would be good enough to get them back into the postseason. But is that where you're trying to go?

51:43Robert Mays: I actually do want to go look and we'll do something like this this offseason. I do want to go look at where a lot of these defenses have been finishing for teams that are playing in the final four, getting deeper into the season like this. Because there used to be a world where the Chiefs could be the 22nd ranked defense by DVOA and then you'd have Spags in the playoffs. The Patriots could be the 27th best defense in the league and then they would do some weird shit in the playoffs. And I just wonder, is that a vestige of our previous era we shouldn't be counting on anymore as we think about these team ceilings?

52:13Robert Mays: But that's an entirely different conversation. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a few more of these.

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53:55Robert Mays: all right this is one that Derek demanded that we have in here and that is the Rams cornerback room and how much different that group is going to look this year than it looked a year ago I just completely forgot that Kobe Durant played 990 snaps for this team last year and Emmanuel Forbes played 900 on the outside and so you have 1800 combined snaps from two guys that But Forbes is still on the roster, but in an ideal world is not a part of this rotation in the same way that he was last year. And so we have Jalen Watson and Trent McDuffie taking over both of those spots. And so I think the cornerback room for this team, Derek, is going to feel considerably different in 2026 than it felt a year ago.

54:35It's going to feel a lot different. I mean, they were the smallest outside cornerback duo in the league last year. And I know that McDuffie is not a big guy either, but he is at least a better player than Kobe Durant. Kobe Durant is fine, but he's like McDuffie is a much better player of that similar archetype. And then obviously, you know, Watson is a much bigger guy than they had on the other side there with Emmanuel Forbes. So I'm excited about this because I think when they first started to do this, I was like, OK, the corners are going to be better. But I'm not sure like trading as much as they did for McDuffie, where I think he's more of a nickel and they're going to play him outside.

55:08I was a little bit iffy on it. And it's like, man, you're just running back the same outside duo, outside cornerback duo that the Chiefs just ran. and the Chiefs kind of struggled a lot on defense. But again, this is why it's like the situations matter. The Chiefs couldn't rush the passer. The Chiefs could only rush the passer if they brought five and six. And even then, those weren't getting home in the same way that Spags was able to in previous seasons. And so now you come to a spot where they can win with just their base four, let alone all the funky shit that they throw where they're bringing an unconventional four and sometimes their five-man pressures are really, really good.

55:40And so them now letting these two corners who, I think Watson is a guy who can play really aggressive, like one-on-one man coverage, kind of get your hands on people. McDuffie, I think will do that for a guy his size, but I think to me is more just like his trigger and his instincts are kind of phenomenal. But if he's able to do that now in a defensive system and, you know, being more surrounded by a pass rush that is actually going to allow him to jump stuff and be aggressive and he only has to buy less time and coverage than he was previously in Kansas City, I'm pretty bought in on where this is going and also to like the other three dbs in this room are really good

56:14Robert Mays: like their safeties and nickel play are pretty damn good i think that's the other part of it too is that in kansas city when mcduffie wasn't playing in the slot and shamari connor was playing there so much you just had questions about what the safeties looked like independent of whatever your worries about the pass rush were and i think that this group overall is just so much more solid in both of those areas for the rams and the other part of it is like i'm just wondering how much we do see McDuffie inside in certain personnel groupings like this team played 347 snaps in dime last year that was almost 100 more than any other team in the NFL and so I wonder does he bump inside and do we get those 300 snaps from Emmanuel Forbes instead of 900 and so do you still have the optionality there on the back end like I just think there's so many different ways this could play out that are good for the Rams independent of your two starting corners being better on day one than they were a year ago.

57:04Derrik Klassen: You talk about fun play callers, like Chris Shula is going to find fun ways to use all of these different guys. Yeah, I'd be pretty surprised if Trent McDuffie is just out on an island all season long and isn't bouncing inside and outside and doing different stuff and the Rams are going to be using three safety packages on plenty of occasions and I just, I expect it to look very fun and different. My thing, it's just, it's very easy to look at the Rams and be like, oh, you upgraded your biggest weak spots on a team that was already loaded. It's a meme at this point, but it is just funny that they didn't feel that way about linebacker at all.

57:41Derrik Klassen: They never will. That's just never going to happen. Even with the small spend, I'm not asking you to go drop $40 million on a linebacker. It doesn't have to be Devin Lloyd, but... I think their linebacker play far cleared the bar

57:54Robert Mays: for what they want out of that position last year.

57:58Derrik Klassen: It was not bad, but if you're doing all this shit to gear up and you're clearly sending the signal of Super Bowl or bust, I have to assume you could have done something there.

58:09Robert Mays: When you consider what it has looked like in previous years and what they got out of that position last year, I think they feel just fine. I've given up with them.

58:16Derrik Klassen: What are you talking about? Derek's given up. Listen, I'm the I want good linebackers on all my favorite teams, yada, yada, yada. I was trying to trade Jordan Brooks to three different teams. Dave, you and I were trying to trade Jordan Brooks to the Dallas Cowboys. I've just given up on the Rams. They're going to do what they do, And it's, I think I've given up because you can't really blame them, right? Like they clearly have had a lot of success on defense over the years doing this. Even if the linebacker plays like, they're kind of just getting by. And I will say Landman played better last year than I thought he was going to.

58:46And even Spades had flashes, but it's still to Dave's point, one of the weaker parts on the roster.

58:51Derrik Klassen: I'll blame them in January when they're getting trucked by somebody.

58:54Robert Mays: I'm just saying. By adding those corners, I'm in a spot with the Rams where if they stay relatively healthy, I'm more worried about some of the relative weaknesses on offense than I am about the relative weaknesses on defense. Like if I were a Rams fan right now and I was concerned about what would hold them back from winning a Super Bowl, it would be we didn't add a third pass catcher and our tackle depth is not what it was last year. McClendon's a starter instead of a depth piece. They drafted a tackle in the third round. But again, I'd just be more worried about where the offense could hold us back than I would be about the defense.

59:26Robert Mays: And I just have to be there considering what last year looked like.

59:28Derrik Klassen: Here's a hot take for you. being a fan of a team in this situation, not fun. I mean, it's going to be fun if the Rams win the Super Bowl, but knowing that the expectation is the Super Bowl and knowing that you've got to win 12 plus games to win this division or else you'll be back in Seattle in January trying to deal with that again. And knowing that your quarterback's older and your receivers are older and you didn't do a lot to bolster that depth, of course, it's going to be fun. Of course, they're going to be very good. but like it's, it's a long and grinding season with high expectation.

1:00:07Robert Mays: I call bullshit on this. I've watched so much terrible football in my life as a fan of a team.

1:00:12Derrik Klassen: It's a stressful place to be.

1:00:14Robert Mays: It is a stressful place to be. If they didn't already have one in their back pocket, Stafford and McVay, then I think it might be a different conversation. I know this group has not won one, but if I'm a Rams fan, I'm coming into this season feeling like I'm going to have a pretty good time every single week. on the spectrum of what the experience can be watching your football team even if you have those expectations the 2026 los angeles rams are on one side of the spectrum of course you should

1:00:41Derrik Klassen: be excited and of course the season looks like it's going to be very fun for you but just knowing like nothing that happens before christmas can determine whether this season was like a success

1:00:55Robert Mays: There are 24 teams where nothing happens this season, period, going into the season. Nothing they can possibly do matters.

1:01:02Derrik Klassen: It's just, it's easier to find the joy when the expectations are a little bit lowered, you know? I would push back on that.

1:01:11Robert Mays: As a fan of a team that's had no expectations many times, there are a lot of moments where it's hard to find the joy in those sorts of teams.

1:01:17Derrik Klassen: This is still what you aspire to, don't get me wrong, but I'd be shitting bricks if I was a Rams fan. of like just understanding the expectations and all of the different ways that it could go wrong and anything less than winning the Superbowl is not gonna like, you're not going to feel like you just gotta enjoy the ride, man. You can't enjoy the ride in this situation. There is no enjoying the ride when Stafford's 38 and you came as close as you did last year.

1:01:44Robert Mays: Let's hit two more of these. The Steelers wide receivers, Derek, are going to look a lot difference than they did a year ago. Calvin Austin was the second highest snap getter receiver last year for the Steelers. He got 480 snaps. What did Calvin Austin sign for a free agency? Peanuts. It was like a million bucks. It was nothing. 1.5 with a max value of max value of 4.5. He got 500 snaps for the Steelers last year. Next on that list was Roman Wilson at about 200 MVS and Adam Thielen. Those were the four guys after DK Metcalf. I was joking with our producer Katie before the show. I remember the Adam Thielen snaps because it's like they traded for him.

1:02:24And there was, you know, the whole weird stuff with the, you know, him getting out of Carolina. I don't remember hardly a single thing about MBS being a stealer. And I know that he was because he's one of Aaron Rodgers' buddies. But I remember almost none of those snaps.

1:02:38Derrik Klassen: Was it MBS that they just kept targeting at the end of that Browns game? I think it was. Yes. And was like personally offended that they wouldn't stop throwing at him. I was personally offended by a lot of things the Steelers receivers did last year. Correct. And I think what's funny, too, about the way that they ran the offense last year, where you mentioned Calvin Austin only getting however like 500 snaps. He played like 43 percent of the snaps that he was out there. So like their second wide receiver was playing less than half of the snaps. That's crazy because they were the big let's put, you know, 13 personnel offense on the field all the time.

1:03:12And part of that was because they did have good tight ends. the other part of it was they just did not have other functional receivers you would want to even put out there and so the fact that now they go and trade for Michael Pittman who is not the sexiest receiver but is like more than capable as a flex wide receiver too can play us a big slot a little bit and then getting Jeremy Bernard who we talked about this on draft night I think Metcalf is really good as like a field stretcher and some of these quick iso routes and I think that Pittman is good as like a move possession get into zones type Jeremy Bernard can do a little bit of everything but he is now there like, just give somebody the ball and hope that he can make a play.

1:03:47And this offense really outside of like Jalen Warren didn't really have that last year.

1:03:51Robert Mays: I just like the fact that you have two guys who their biggest selling point is we can count on them to be a functional adult at wide receiver. Like that is this biggest selling point with Michael. They're very different players, obviously, but that is the biggest selling point, in my opinion, for Michael Pittman and Jeremy Bernard. And to put both of those guys, and to me, it's two different things. One, it's a contrast to what that group felt like last year, but it's also the types of players I want playing next to DK Metcalf. Like, all I want is guys that I can just rely on because as explosive and as exciting as DK Metcalf is, there are moments where he's frustrating.

1:04:27Robert Mays: We've talked about this. Like, there are elements of his game that can be frustrating. And so kind of riding the highs and the lows of the DK Metcalf experience while having two guys that just are reliable, and like that is the biggest selling points of both of them. I see the vision for what this is supposed to be and how this is supposed to come together independent of the fact that it just needed to be better this year. Do you trust that it will? Because I love the way this, I love the way the receiver gets back to a quarterback conversation that I don't want to have again.

1:04:56Derrik Klassen: I like the way that the receiver core, all the pieces compliment each other. Michael Pittman is fantastic over the middle of the field. He's had the fifth most targets over the middle of the field among all receivers with 50 plus targets on the season. And that's something that the Steelers haven't really had. Rodgers loves to throw slants, but outside of that. You're telling me. Yeah, exactly. Outside of that, though, he doesn't target the middle of the field that often. He only threw 24 passes in intermediate range, like 10 to 19 yards down the field over the middle. Does having Michael Pittman mean that he will?

1:05:29Derrik Klassen: No. No. It'll be more spot and stick, but it's not going to be more like. That's for you, the listener, to decide. I don't want to have this conversation again. Jeremy Bernard is, okay, well, here's something that actually will happen if Aaron Rodgers is their quarterback. Jeremy Bernard's a really good yak guy. And that is how the Steelers got all their yards last year was yak.

1:05:52Robert Mays: And so considering they threw what percentage of their total passes behind the line of scrimmage. Right. Listen, I do not think this offense is going to be good. But if you are trying to build the Aaron Rodgers offense for one last ride, It's an 11 personnel offense where two of the wide receivers are like, can they just be in the right spot and catch the football and run forward once I give it to them? And at least Michael Piven and Jeremy Bernard can do that. Again, I don't really trust that you're going to get high enough ceiling out of the quarterback for that to mean anything. But I at least do think that, like, that's how you should probably try to try to build the thing.

1:06:24Derrik Klassen: Not to write off the Aaron Rodgers experience entirely, but you made a point that I've been thinking about a lot the other day, Mays, which is eventually it won't be Aaron Rodgers. That's kind of where I'm at. And this is more about what next year looks like to me. I still think it's a fine receiver core even without that. Like if it's not Aaron Rodgers, if it's just insert X quarterback. No, that's my point is whatever the next quarterback is, whether it's a draft pick or the next middle tier reclamation project guy, whatever, this is a nice receiver core that will be in place for that guy.

1:06:57Robert Mays: All I've thought about with the Steelers this offseason and what they're building is, is this going to be a hospitable place for whatever big swing they take a quarterback in 2027? I hope it's a big swing. Like, I hope that there is somebody that has a theoretical upside that we are excited about that will be playing quarterback for the Steelers next year.

1:07:15Derrik Klassen: I want you to close your eyes and imagine it's like week 11 and Rodgers tweaked his thumb and Michael Pittman's been playing really well and Jeremy Bernard is having a fantastic rookie season. and we're pounding the table on a Thursday afternoon for the Drew Aller experience. I want it now.

1:07:36Robert Mays: I don't even care how ugly it is. You're not going to get it now, though.

1:07:38Derrik Klassen: Like, you're not going to get it. Assuming Aaron Rodgers signs, which whenever that happens, it's not going to happen right away. So I'm just daydreaming of an excuse to get excited about the Steelers.

1:07:51Robert Mays: It's beyond the receiving court to me. Like, the offensive line, that group coming together, and then again, what did it even look like next year? like the fact that every single piece of that offensive line i mean both zach frazier and mason mccormick will be in the final year of their deals in 2027 ahanator will be in year two like this is a multi-year proposition for the steelers their entire offensive infrastructure i i can get behind it it's just the one lingering shitty question we all have to keep asking ourselves i don't like the answers to it last one here the cowboys secondary is going to look and feel considerably different this year than it did a year ago.

1:08:29Robert Mays: We have theoretically Caleb Downs probably playing a lot of nickel for this team, which Allen Thompson and Lee Hooker both at safety. Last year, we had Reddy Stewart, Kyrie Elam, and Trayvon Diggs played more than 1 ,300 snaps combined for the Cowboys secondary. Donovan Wilson was the, I think, the biggest snap getter on the entire defense and played 900 snaps at safety. He is still a free agent right now. And so most of this group, like four of the five pieces in terms of the actual day one, getting most of the snap starters are probably going to be different in 2026 than they were a year ago, Derek.

1:09:08And I mean, you didn't even mention the guy who I felt like when I was watching the Cowboys during the season, I was like, man, this is this is how bad it's gotten. Traquase Bridges and like Kalen Carson, when they were getting some of those snaps, because those guys were already like fourth or fifth down the chart. And then they had a bunch of injuries and like it just got really bad for that secondary. Kobe Durant is one where it is both true that the Rams were right to move on from a player like that if they are trying to like really advance their window and really try to make a push as a Super Bowl defense.

1:09:36And the Cowboys are much better off for having a player like him than they had last year, because I do think Durant, there's there's some size concerns that you're going to have with him. But I do think in like a zone based type of like Fangio ish system that you're probably going to get with Christian Parker. I think Durant actually fits that really, really well. And I think Downs is a guy where it's probably going to look like I think the ideal outcome here is that it looks a lot like when Brian Branch moved full time to the nickel where they're like similar ish body types and not the sexiest athletes, but they are just so damn smart and they're very sound tacklers.

1:10:07And so I think that he could give you that, which, again, is not something they've really had in that defense on the back end for a while. And then I think Thompson is just a really nice like he can play the post. He can play down in the box a little bit, but I think just a movable safety in that style of defense is going to go a long way for them. Like, I'm buying a lot of how they've retooled this thing.

1:10:25Robert Mays: I mean, just movable safeties in general. Like, we're at a place now where, in these defenses specifically, it's just really important that both of your safeties can do a little bit of everything. Like, having those guys be more interchangeable pieces that have overlapping skill sets, and you don't know which guy is going to be coming down into the box every single time you line up in some of those umbrella-type looks. that's really important. And Jalen Thompson is somebody that has played. I mean, you look at what they did in Arizona over the last several years. We're not only talking about two safety sets, we're talking about three safety sets.

1:10:55Robert Mays: He is used to playing in an amorphous defense where you're asking him to do a little bit of everything. And that's exactly what's going to be happening here.

1:11:02Derrik Klassen: This includes more than just the secondary, but across their defense, if you look at the Dallas 2-deep, 18 of the 22, 23 guys that you would be leaning on the most on defense have been there for a year or less. And you combine that,

1:11:20Robert Mays: it's the contrast we were talking about with the Bengals, you do have a new defensive coordinator. And so again, there is this like theoretical upside along with how many component parts you're changing out where if you told me the Cowboys were a shockingly better defense than they were a year ago, I think that's an argument that I could get behind because along with the players that you're changing out, the guy that's pulling the levers is also different.

1:11:43Derrik Klassen: Similar to the Bengals, we joked about this on a previous show. I mean, they drafted Jayshon Barham. They said they're going to play him off ball to start. We'll see how that goes. They traded for D winners. I still don't, I don't love the linebacker situation as it stands right now, but you can't argue with the totality of, of the, of the work that they've done, just revamping and replacing everything. And strangely enough, other than, I guess, I mean, defensive tackle, just because Quinnen Williams is there really. but the the secondary and the safety group is probably what i feel best about which was such a nightmare for them for most of last year yeah the defensive line has also changed out a lot of

1:12:22Robert Mays: pieces that's one of those where i look at the defensive line it's like how much better is it really yeah that you're asking you're asking rashaun gary to turn back the clock like two or three years to really get back to a level for me to get excited about what the front four is supposed to look like and i think you really need something from alki lawrence right yeah you really need somebody you really need something from alki lawrence i think for the front to come together i think maybe this is putting a little bit too much on caleb downs from day one i think there's a little bit less guesswork and imagining like what the best version of the secondary can look

1:12:53Derrik Klassen: like yeah and well but i think it's i think it's fair to put that much expectation on caleb downs like that's how we've talked about him as a prospect and that's what i've heard about him every step of the way from when he was a freshman at Alabama to what you're hearing coming out of the Cowboys facility since he got drafted. So it is a lot to live up to, but I'm comfortable putting that on him based on what we know about him as a player and the versatility that he brings and the IQ that he brings to this as well.

1:13:23Robert Mays: I love the contrast with the offense, which has no new players. Not a single addition to the starting 11 players in the offense for the Cowboys. Marquez Valdez-Scanling is in Dallas now. I'm not this is Ryan Flournoy disrespect like it's not gonna be a starting player and I just

1:13:40Derrik Klassen: know I just wanted to tie it back to MBS no Ryan Flournoy is gonna blow up I mean he already has depending on who you ask but I got high expectations for him the argument for why that Dallas's offense

1:13:50Robert Mays: will feel better and I'm sure we'll hit this when we're doing buying and selling it's offensive line injuries it's that being healthier up front better up front guys developing up there it's a little bit different to me than like the conversation we had about the Falcons last year where the Falcons did absolutely nothing to improve their offense or add to their offense last year the only thing that the falcons missed in 2024 was ryan newsle played like half the season for drew dolman other than that they were remarkably healthy across the board like there was no reason to really think the falcons offense would be different and potentially better than it was the year before for the cowboys i think you could actually squint and start making that argument well and like the other difference too is like we did that with the falcons and the cardinals last year right where it's like they They didn't really change anything.

1:14:30And they were interesting units that we wanted to take that next step. The Dallas offense is already a rocket ship. Like they're already extremely good. And so the fact that, again, if we can bake in maybe just a little bit of improvement second year in the system, them staying healthy, all that stuff, like there's reason to believe that even if it's not perfect, it's still a top 10 offense. All right.

1:14:51Robert Mays: That is all we've got for the meals. The muse. That is all we've got for the most remade units in the NFL heading into next year. I like doing this. It's a good like offseason reset to kind of recalibrate expectations for some of these teams because it is really difficult to just eject your previous understanding what some of these groups look like as you project these teams moving forward. Tomorrow, we're going to chat a little about the sneakier additions that teams made this offseason and some of the ones that might have a bigger impact than we might have thought at first glance. That's tomorrow.

1:15:25Robert Mays: We're going to move some buy and selling, some offseason a little bit later in the week. We've got a full week coming your guys' way. For now, appreciate you listening. Talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time. Business is booming, but you know what really helped? Zero, the accounting platform for small businesses. I used to think spreadsheets were just part of it. Ugh, but real-time cash flow? Wow. Invoices that chase themselves?

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