Sneaky big second-year player X-factors

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2:07Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Me and Derek Klassen are digging into year two players today. I think we spend so much time talking about guys as prospects heading into their rookie years. And it's just impossible to keep track of everybody over the course of that first season. Some guys are immediate contributors. Some guys are being rotated into the lineup. But those guys that you drafted in the first, second, even the third round heading into year two, you're expecting them to be big parts of your plans. And so that's the pool of players that we took a long look at today.

2:42Robert Mays: Me and Derek each picked three-ish guys heading into year two that we think can swing their unit one way or the other. Sometimes this is about realizing your ceiling as a unit. One of my guys was Christian Mahogany from the Lions. If Mahogany is a plus starter, is the Lions offensive line, again, a top five to seven unit in the league? Sometimes it's about setting a floor for your unit. If you can get one more guy that's an acceptable starter, does an offensive or defensive line come together in a way where it allows the entire offensive or defense to kind of be the unit that that team wants it to be?

3:19Robert Mays: So we picked three guys that we think, based on how they play this year, could push their unit either positionally or on that side of the ball one way or the other. Really enjoyed this conversation with Derek. Let's get to it right now.

3:39Robert Mays: Derek, I'm excited about this one today. This is an idea that we landed on a couple weeks ago and we were figuring out how we wanted our pre-season training camp podcast to look. And I just think this is a group of players we don't talk enough about. Just think about how much time and energy we spend breaking down guys as prospects. And then over the course of their rookie years, there's just no way to keep track of everybody. And I think we kind of forget guys that didn't necessarily burst onto the scene as rookies as they move into their second year. So going back, considering this pool of players and considering how they may shape the NFL season, I'm really excited about digging into this today.

4:17Yeah, I think during the course of the NFL season, you only have room for like a dozen, a dozen and a half rookies who are like actually making a difference. And you know, there's going to be some guys who get thrown into the lineup here and there, but you kind of just forget about them or push them to the side. It's only the guys, it's only the rookies that start to pop as like, ooh, can he make a Pro Bowl as a rookie that you start to think about? And it's these other guys who down the line need to matter, but maybe in their first year, they don't.

4:41Robert Mays: And there's always the adage that the year one to year two jump is the biggest jump that you're going to take. And then I don't think we consider or talk about that enough. Whether that's true is something we can probably save for another discussion. But the fact that that's one of the old football cliches and then we don't spend enough time on the second year guys is probably a fault of mine. Well, again, and then we only do that for the guys who were like, oh, he was almost a pro ball as a rookie. Can he make all pro next year? And so we spend like me and Deontay did a show on that for defenders for that literally like a month ago.

5:11But we just forget about some of these guys who maybe they didn't have the rookie or maybe they were injured for some of their rookie year and are coming back now.

5:18Robert Mays: Before we dig into this, I don't want to get us too far off track, but I had to mention this to you because you're his biggest fan in this country. I think at Chargers camp yesterday, I left very, very excited about Deion Henley. That's all that's that's all I'll say to you. I left very excited about Deion Henley based on what I heard about him. And then he did his media availability yesterday. And I talked to him yet last year. I went to L.A. as part of something I was working on and, you know, chatted with him in the locker room for a while and just came away extremely impressed. He might be the most charismatic man in America.

5:50Robert Mays: So there's just a lot of stuff lining up in favor of Deion Henley heading into this year. Yeah. One more box for him to check in terms of, you know, he might need to wield some of that charisma to get himself some votes from some of these voters. You know, on the ESPN poll, he got like only a handful of votes for one of the best linebackers in the league. So he can play, you know, five percent better next year. We'll some of that charisma. We'll get him into the Pro Bowl. The quote that I will say from a defensive coach I talked to yesterday is he can be as good as he wants to be. And I think that that is probably the case with somebody that has his tool set.

6:23Yeah, I mean, just there's not very many linebackers who are that long, that fast and like already this good in coverage as a young player. It's just there's like three other guys and he's he's in a pretty unique position.

6:34Robert Mays: We got a lot of guys to talk about today, though. So let's dig into this group. Let's talk about the second year players we think could potentially swing their respective units in 2025. Why don't you kick us off? I actually don't know who yours are, so I'm excited to be surprised by what this group looks like for you. So I'm going to cheat a little bit with the first one and go to like it's going to be multiple guys. any of the Falcons defensive linemen that they drafted last year. That's so true. I did the same thing where I was like almost landing on Rook Ororo and I was like, well, there's like three of them.

7:07Robert Mays: So how do you pick between them? And he's the one who played the most, right? So he's probably the best one if you had to just pick one. But like they drafted three last year with Rook Ororo. They drafted Braylon Trice, who it's not his fault. He didn't have a good rookie season. Obviously, he missed a lot of it with injury. And then they also drafted Brandon Dorliss, who didn't play a lot of last season. either. And so I think going into, you know, especially post draft, we've done a lot of, oh, well, they're going to really need some of these young DBs that they drafted to step up. And they really need these two first round pass rushers to do something.

7:36And it's like, that's true. But they also don't really have any clearly good defensive linemen right now, especially now that Grady Jarrett is out of the building. And so they need guys like Ruka Roro to step up. I think he is probably the biggest one because, you know, doorless is a little bit more of that like can kind of play three tech and kind of play five tech and kind of be a big end Braylon Trice to me is more like a Sam Hubbard like good run defending defensive end too Ruka Roro is like truly your defensive tackle put him in the middle he has to be your guy and he kind of has just a I think he has a very niche skill set in the fact that like he's very quick I think he has like a skinnier lower half so he's never really going to win with power but if you watch some of his pass rush reps, some of the ways that he's able to like slice, you know, from the backside on like outside zone, you can see how a little bit more development could, could make him a little bit more of an explosive player.

8:29Robert Mays: So interesting seeing how these light box, light box teams approach this position group, because I think some teams like look at the Rams, for example, Kobe Turner, Braden Fisk, you're penetrating defensive linemen, even Bobby Brown. And some of the guys played one technique for them last year, aren't huge space eating players. They go again, a quicker guy. That's how they've tried to solve this problem is with penetration. You look at the Chargers, who play a ton of light boxes, they don't have a penetrating guy. Their smallest defensive tackle in that room weighs like 325 pounds, and it's not surprising that the Falcons, as they've tried to solve this problem, have gone with more smaller, penetrating-type bodies.

9:08Robert Mays: We want to be disruptive rather than eating space in order to solve this problem. And I think if you look at their group, it really points to that idea. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like to me, sometimes just watching some of those defenses, it's like an itchy way to live. It makes me, you know, because you're there's less rules, right? Like you're kind of just creating chaos and hoping that our second level, our second level fitters, our third level fitters just do a good enough job at it. And obviously, I think if you coach those guys well enough, like you look at the D 'Amico Ryans' defenses, like they play a lot like this, where it's some lighter bodies.

9:39They're just making chaos. And well, our linebackers run a four four and they're going to go find somebody. And you can get away with that. It's just a really risky way to live, especially if those penetrators aren't consistently actually getting there. And so I think that's why Ruka Roro has to go from like, OK, he was fine as a rotational player last year, but he is really stepping into a role where now with Grady Jarrett gone. You know, I'm not saying he has to be a pro bowler for all this stuff to work, but like he has to be a clearly good and useful player for them on a down to down basis.

10:09What is your level of confidence that can happen? not that high unfortunately and it's for a few reasons right one of it like he is going to have to learn a new defense this year with with Olbert coming in so I think that's going to just mess things up a little bit for any young player the veteran in the room in Grady Jarrett is gone which I think is going to hurt some of these young players and then I just to him he is again I look at his body type and I struggle it just feels like some of his bad plays are always going to stick like he to me is again skinnier lower half I think there are a lot of moments where when he's trying to like get a knee down and really hang on to double teams and when teams get four hands on him he just does not have the the bulk to do that um and I know that we just talked about like oh well he's mostly going to be a penetrating player that's true but at the end of the day you're still going to have to take on four hands at once at some point like it's going to happen and so if those plays are worse then you're getting value out of the place where you are getting in the backfield, that's a little bit what I worry about with him.

11:09Robert Mays: Even if some of the, here's what I'll say about the front. And this is honestly one of the biggest questions I have, like as I go through this entire trip that I'm taking, I go to Atlanta. I can't even keep track of it all anymore. I think it's on Sunday. I'm in Atlanta that it's, it is easily the most aggressive move of, of my, of my training camp travels is my red eye flight from Seattle to Atlanta and then going straight to Falcons practice, which is just going to be an absolutely miserable day. But I'm very interested when I spend some time down there to talk to their defensive staff about how they see this stuff playing out with Jeff Olbrich's background and the way that they played last year and then the body types.

11:45Robert Mays: They built the defense around some of these body types that fit the old scheme. But even if it's going to be a little bit different structurally, I wonder if the way they play blocks, like you said, you talk about D 'Amico Ryan's defenses. Well, Jeff Ulbricht's defenses have the same DNA as D 'Amico Ryan's defenses. So I wonder even if some of the structures change, the ways and the techniques and how they're playing some of this stuff, is there going to be enough carryover where a guy like Rookororo is not going to have to rewire his brain heading into year two? I mean, that's a really good point.

12:16Like, I think, you know, to kind of tap into like that defensive tree a little bit, if they, I think the best version of what you're going to get from Rookororo is like some version of like Javon Hargrave, where again, he is sometimes if you get double teams on him, it's going to be a problem. But he's so explosive consistently that he's just creating enough chaos for everybody around him. He can really dent, you know, some of these guards on some of these plays. So that I think is what they're shooting for. It's just, again, we didn't see that much from him. You know, he only played like half of the games last season, and it's not like he was in there for 90 percent of the snaps when he was.

12:49So it's just there's a lot of projection here with, again, a front that just has almost

12:54Robert Mays: no verifiably good players yeah it's it's all an idea it's all projection thrown a lot of resources into it it's all an idea at this point for atlanta let's get to my first one here i have a lot you could say 10 offensive linemen on this list by the way if you wanted to go with like a million off do you have any offensive linemen on yours um so i have i brought like five options and it's i'm gonna like go with the flow of the show and see how i feel about who i want to pick and one of is an offensive lineman, so maybe. So I'm going to start with Christian Mahogany because I think there are a couple different offensive linemen I'm going to throw out here.

13:29Robert Mays: And I think their situations are all a little bit different. You know, with one of the other ones, it's can we find one more certifiable starter to lift the floor of this unit? With Christian Mahogany, it's more about can the Lions recapture the ceiling of that unit or get close to it, even with some personnel changes. So Christian Mahogany right now is slated to be the left guard for the Lions. The way that they're lining up in training camp, Tate Rallage, who they drafted in the second round, they're going to try him at center. They're going to see if this works with him at center. And it's an interesting choice for them.

14:00Robert Mays: And we'll talk about it a lot. I talk about it with Colton Pouncey on the show that's going to come out on Saturday here. But them having Frank Ragnall and understanding the benefits of a high ceiling center, I think that's why they're seeing what Tate Rallage can do there rather than finding a floor at that position with Graham Glasgow. But Mahogany seems like the clear favorite to start at left guard. And he started two games for them last year. He started the Bears game in the regular season and then the Washington game in the playoffs. And I went back and I watched both of those games today and I left extremely impressed.

14:31Robert Mays: Like there is just so much to like about what he's bringing to the table already. And it was funny that the next offensive lineman I talk about is Blake Frischer. And so going back and studying both of them back to back, even independent of the players themselves, watching how well coached the Lions offensive line is versus how not well coached the Texans offensive line is. It's a very jarring experience. So it's hard to separate what is the individual player bringing to the table and what is the coaching. But when I watch Mahogany, he's extremely athletic. He's powerful. He's really good in space.

15:05Robert Mays: And he was playing, especially in his first start against the Bears, just with an incredible amount of awareness for a rookie player in his first start. When you watch him, he's finding guys in pass protection. You know, he's looking for work when he's uncovered the way that he's moving off of double teams and climbing to the second level. The timing on it is very good. His aiming points in space are very good. And then you combine that with a real physical skill set. Like he is a big, powerful man who moves really well. And I think that he has a real ceiling at the position. So now when you're looking at that Lions offensive line, if this is a guy who, as I believe a sixth round pick, isn't just a stopgap player for you, but can be like a plus starter.

15:48Robert Mays: And then Ratlidge comes in with, again, a ton of physical skills. And then Glasgow, if he's your fourth or fifth best offensive lineman again, are we at a place where even if this isn't this unit it's been over the last couple of years, it can still be a top seven, eight offensive line in the NFL and be a driver of the Lions success. After going back and watching Mahogany, I don't think that's off the table because I think he has a chance to be a very good player. think about everything you just said to describe Christian Mahogany where it's like big guy 320 pounds powerful pretty good mover into the second level kind of sounds like the left guard they had two years ago in Jonah Jackson when they were the Lions might have been the best offensive line in football that year and I think last year they took a slight step back in part because like Jackson was missing and they had to insert Graham Glasgow at left guard and again Glasgow's like a serviceable player.

16:38He's a floor setter. Yes, but he doesn't bring the pop that a guy like Jonah Jackson or in this case, hopefully Christian Mahogany can bring. So I think them it's not just that he is hopefully an upgrade over Graham Glasgow as he continues to play a little bit more. It's that I think he fits the identity of like what the offensive line wants to be. And I think they lacked a little bit last year. And so, again, 2022 and 2023, this was an offensive line that could truly move whoever they wanted to. And I think last year you actually saw them be a little bit more of a zone operation because I just think they knew they couldn't do as much of that last year.

17:12And I think and so if Mahogany can bring a little bit of that, that, you know, some of that power back, I think they can be a little bit more of a diverse run game again, which that's when we've seen the best of guys like Jameer Gibbs and David Montgomery.

17:24Robert Mays: So incredible watching them be able to slot different players in there again. Mahogany comes in and those two games and the offensive line doesn't really miss a beat. Like it's a similar sort of group, even with a rookie six round pick coming in and having to play. And some of it is just the timing that that group plays with. Like when you watch him and like Taylor Decker work together on double teams, how just in tune he is with when he has to come off of that stuff, when he has to climb to the second level, how square he is in those moments. Like it's funny because when you watch him, he's a little bit sloppy and a little bit overaggressive in some areas, but not in others.

17:59Robert Mays: like sometimes young players when they're in space, they're looking for those kill shots. Like that's what they want. And he's actually very in control in those moments. But sometimes in close quarters, he would get a little bit over aggressive. He'd get a little bit sloppy. You get a little bit over his feet. And so if there was all, if every single instance of him was, oh, we got like a bull in a China shop here. Like we got, we got to reign this in. I think I'd be a little bit more concerned, but it's not, it's only in specific instances. And And then you watch what he was in the regular season game and then what he was in the playoff game.

18:31Robert Mays: And that stuff got cleaned up, like literally over the course of like six to eight weeks. He was so much better, like keeping his feet, keeping his feet moving and true past sets. And so even that level of improvement from the first glimpse to the second just makes me really hopeful about what he can be going into his second year. And the tight area stuff is always just harder. Like it's because things are happening so much faster that you can understand why that would be hard for a young player. Whereas to me, the stuff where you're going for kill shots at the second level, taking wrong angles like that to me is almost just it's like not that it can't be fixed, but it to me is more like an inherent misunderstanding of the position at times.

19:10Like I think that's been part of the frustration with a guy like Zion Johnson. Right. It's like he physically has all of the tools to be a good player. But sometimes you see him climb to the second level and he's just like overshooting a guy because he's just trying to take him out. And it's like you didn't need to do that. And I think obviously the Lions coaching staff has gotten it through to a lot of these young players. that if you just do your job, everything's going to sort itself out.

19:30Robert Mays: That is such a good comparison. Because when I watch Mahogany, and I think that he is already filling in a lot of the gaps that Zion Johnson hasn't been able to up to this point in his career. Mahogany keeping his eyes out for when a stunt is going to be coming back to him in his first start, that's something that we're now three years into Zion Johnson's career, and that's not happening very often. And again, I think that goes back to coaching and just how well prepared this unit is. But when you combine that aspect of it, Hank Fraley coming back with a guy in Mahogany who has real physical skills, I think that this is a unit that is going to be closer to the top of the league than the middle, even with some of the changes that they're undergoing this year.

20:13Robert Mays: And I think Mahogany is going to be one of the guys that drives that for the Lions. All right, before we get to the rest of these, let's take our first quick break. Look, we've all got a ton of passwords and we all have our own password related struggles. For me, the thing that I just can't stand the most when it comes to passwords is being sure that I've got one remembered. Absolutely certain. Type it in. Not right. Maybe I didn't capitalize a letter. Type it again. Not right. Maybe I accidentally skipped over a number. Type it in. Not right. That is the one that I just cannot stand. And let's be honest, how many of these can you actually remember off the top of your head?

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23:33Robert Mays: All right, Derek, what's your next one here? all right so mine is less about is this unit going to be good and more about can this player help them achieve the ceiling that they want to and that to me is uh bill's safety cole bishop i we how many times did we talk last year about how man this bill's defense has a lot but the safeties are just not not helping them out especially in like run defense right like they're tackling especially in what was it that colts game where jonathan taylor went crazy like i still have nightmares about it it still makes me wake up in a cold sweat isn't it funny how there are just some like random, almost inconsequential games every season where you just there's something burned into your memory about it.

24:11And for that, it was it was the realization that like, oh, the bill safeties might not be good enough when they need them. And so that's why Cole Bishop needs to be really good. And I went back and watched him. I tried to find out like, OK, how much better can he really be than some of the other guys that they were playing at safety last year? And I think when I watch him, there is some stuff that I like. I think you can clearly see that he's taken well to the coaching that Sean McDermott has done. This has always been a safety room where you have to be smart to play in the safety room. When they were at their best with Jordan Poirier and Micah Hyde, they were some of the sharpest dudes that you've ever, not ever, but they were some of the sharpest safeties in the league.

24:48And I do think Cole Bishop has brought some of that. I think especially on the back end, he does a really good job of making sure he's staying on top of routes, which is really important. This is a defense that kind of lives on like, we don't want to give up the explosives. And I think he clearly understands that and he's done a good job of that. There also were just instances where. I think if he gets, you know, the term, if he's even, he's leaving. If you get even with Cole Bishop, you're probably going to outrun him. And I know he ran really well at the combine, but like functionally, when you watch him on the field, I think his speed is probably average.

25:21And so maybe that can come into play a little bit. And then I thought his run defense and tackling was a little bit of a mixed bag. Like he is extremely better than I expected you to say. Well, and it's better than we got from the Bill safeties last most of the Bill safeties last year. Right. We're like so he's he's really willing to come down and to hit and even to take on guards. Like there are some instances where they ask him to be like to roll down as the hook player. And then, you know, when you're rolling down into the hook, you're playing like the B gap and run defense. And he's willing to take on guards and help with that stuff.

25:51So I think he brings that level of physicality. I just don't love the way he tackles. He does a lot of stopping and breaking down, which is just a huge pet peeve of mine. Like I run through the tackle and so maybe he can improve on that next year. So he is a little bit of a mixed bag. But I saw enough there that I don't know if he's ever going to be a difference making player. But I do believe that he can be some degree better than what they got last year. And that that could be enough to unlock some of the other pieces on the defense, especially if the front is what we want it to be.

26:19Robert Mays: So that was that's the exact point that I was about to bring up is that you hope that these safeties with the amount of investment they've put into the front. And with the amount of like potentially penetrating, disruptive players they now have as part of that rotation. And a lot of them are young. You know, it may not come together in year one, but they've got a much deeper rotation there now than they had last year. Are we going to have the safeties left out to dry in space as often in 2025 as we had in 2024 if the front is better this year? And I think that is the bet they're probably making.

26:53it probably is and again if even if it's around the same level of getting them hung out to dry but Cole Bishop is just 10 % better at taking the right angles and and taking on tight ends if he really needs to than some of the previous safeties were again that's not going to be enough to make the bills a top five defense again but it might be enough to help them go from how they're going to get blasted in January again to like oh no they they might be able to hang and might have some answers.

27:18Robert Mays: What did you think about him just in terms of that disguise centric DNA that that back end wants to incorporate just him being a player where you can do a lot of the things in coverage on the back end of your defense? Yeah, I mean, I think they intentionally draft and sign safeties who don't have a superpower and are a little bit of the jack of all trade types. And I do think he fits into that. Like, I think in those moments where, you know, obviously they do a lot of starting in too high and then they'll rotate into into whatever they want to do and whenever he has to come off the hash and get into the center field again I think he does a really good job of staying on top of routes and understanding like you know where he needs to be and making sure he's not giving up the big plays I think he does a decent job of that when he has to come down and be a run defender I thought he did a good job of that the only the the biggest criticism I would probably have is I think when he was playing some of their cover two and some of their quarter stuff when he had to drive on outbreakers.

28:15I think he was a little bit slow to do that. But again, if that's something that he can fix a little bit, just get a little bit more comfortable seeing those route combinations in year two. I could totally see him again, not where he's going to drive on a bunch of those and pick five of them off a year, but at least squeeze that air a little bit and take away some of those completions.

28:33Robert Mays: That defense in general, just another group I'm interested to ask people about because there's so many young players. And so just getting a gauge and I'll be there early August. So we've all been practicing for a couple of weeks. I've had pads on for a little while, just getting a gauge of like, all right, where is so-and-so, you know, how, who on the defensive line do you feel like is going to be a bigger part of things early on than maybe somebody else? I think it's just a group with a lot of moving parts and questions. And I think they've done a good job of kind of intentionally turning over a lot of the rotational pieces, especially up front that it's a group that I think could go a bunch of different ways.

29:07Robert Mays: Like if you told me the Bills had the sixth best defense in the league this year because some of those young guys hit, I do think that's potentially on the table. And that's just not really the type of group we were talking about last year. Well, exactly. And not even just in terms of quality, but it's I felt like for the first like three ish years of the Josh Allen era, you kind of didn't have to think about the Bills defense. It was just a lot of the same actors and you just knew they were going to be the seventh best defense in the league. Didn't have to think about it, knew what they were going to run.

29:34and that was going to be that, but they really have over the last two years undergone a huge, huge makeover. And this might be the year that it starts to finally coalesce.

29:43Robert Mays: My next one here, speaking of kind of fringe AFC contenders, I'm going with Chris Jenkins from the Bengals. I think that he's indicative of a larger idea around this Bengals defense. And that's that the young guys under Luanna Marumo either didn't play enough or didn't play well enough. And we need to shift that as we move into the owl golden era. And with the Chris Jenkins thing, you can't really say the first part. I mean, he played like 550 snaps last year for this defense. He just didn't play very well. And as we're trying to project the Bengals defense in 2024 into 2025, and how can this group go from a bottom five-ish unit to merely below average in order to make good on what the offense can be?

30:27Robert Mays: Guys like Chris Jenkins, I think, have to fuel that. And you go back and you watch him, and I don't know how much you watched him last year, but it's an interesting deployment of the defensive tackles in that system for a couple different reasons. They're doing a lot of funky pressure stuff on passing downs. And when you're doing that, I was talking to a defensive coach about that this week, where when you have that sort of approach, if you're running a simulated pressure, and say you're dropping one end off, the front is inherently going to have to shift one direction. Like you're not just penetrating in the gap that you're lined up in.

30:59Robert Mays: So you're setting your defensive lineman up to not really be disruptive players if you're playing that way. And so when you look at the Bengals, they did a lot of that. And Chris Jenkins had 11 pressures and 500 snaps. So maybe you can explain away some of the lack of pass rush production. But when you watch, when you think about that sort of unit and the guys being used that way, you're space eating, run blocking players. Like that's what you are doing. That's what you are being asked to do. And I just don't think he did that very well. And the couple of games I went back and watched in the back half of the season, you know, the Denver game maybe isn't the best indication.

31:36Robert Mays: He's having to play against Quinn Miners and that Broncos offensive line, but they got pushed around in that game. And so if he's not going to be a difference making pass rusher and he's not going to be somebody that's stout against the run, what is he supposed to be? And so I think him being a question mark and a lot of these youngish players on the Bengals defense being question marks coming into this year, the answers we get on them in this version of the defense is ultimately going to determine not only what the Bengals defense can be, but what the Bengals can be, period. Yeah, he to me is I mean, he's really the only like young player now who's he's even like reporting to camp.

32:15Obviously, Shamar Stewart isn't so like they really do need him. miles murphy is moderately young still that's that's a good point i just feel like we've been doing the miles murphy thing for a bit too long he's in year three so he doesn't apply to this conversation yeah he doesn't get to apply um but chris jenkins to me is like the password stuff is actually a good point that especially if you're a young player and you're constantly being deployed in a system like this where they're asking you to stunt a lot uh to twist a lot it's not just that those plays are kind of inherently designed to get somebody else you know open so to speak in in terms of the pressure.

32:48It's also like then you just get fewer regular pass rush snaps to like hone your skill and develop that. And so I think you could start to explain away why that hurt him and maybe them bringing in Al Golden and running some simpler pressure packages is going to help him there. I think the run defense is more important. And the reason I say that is that I think if you squint and want to believe that this Bengals defense can be decent, it's because the secondary has some promising young players, right? Like with with, you know, Dax Hill, DJ Turner, like some of those guys, like if they can really play to their level, that would help them a lot.

33:22It would be nice if those guys could be in like more true, you know, passing downs where, you know, the offense has to pass instead of just if if the run defense is going to constantly allow the defense to be in second and four. And then you can't even pressure. And then the secondary is just left out to dry all the time. This defense is probably going to be bad again. And so that's why Jenkins, I think, really does need to step up as a run defender. And it's like. He Robert, you remember when we were doing all of through the draft season, we were talking about Kenneth Grant, and I think you struggled with him a little bit.

33:54And I did as well, because he was a 330 pound guy who didn't always take on blocks the way that you would expect of a 330 pound guy. I think Jenkins obviously is a little bit smaller. He's closer to the 310 range. but I feel a little bit of that with him where he has the requisite size and you see the flashes of strength where he should be a guy who can who can take on blocks effectively whether it's you know down blocks on gap stuff getting four hands on him on duo whatever it is and I think he just consistently struggled with that and I think that was why you know I think two years ago we felt like this Bengals linebackers core was good enough and I think last year with the deteriorating defensive line and just a lot of young players we felt like they weren't good enough anymore And obviously part of that Logan Wilson had missed some time as well.

34:34But I think them not having the sturdiness out of some of their young defensive tackles, Chris Jenkins included. I think that really, really started to just have this cascade effect of the defense from the bottom up.

34:47Robert Mays: It's funny how those two things play off of each other, because you go back and you watch Chris Jenkins from last year. And there are plays where the linebackers aren't triggering fast enough. And that allows the double team part of combos to stay on the defensive line longer than they should. and so it's making his job harder because the linebackers aren't coming downhill the way that they should. And so it all plays off of one another. And I think that when you look at Chris Jenkins, it's funny that you mentioned him and Kenneth Grant. I mean, he played Kenneth Grant's role in that Michigan defense opposite Mason Graham a year before Kenneth Grant did.

35:18Robert Mays: And I do think that he has the requisite skillset to hold up as that sort of player. I just think when you watch a lot of the young guys on that defense, and maybe I'm projecting a little bit, but I think you can see some of this. you would kind of see the gears turning. Like they're just not playing fast. They're not playing with urgency. Like I think there's a lot of thinking going on, even from a defensive line perspective, because of all the things they're asking those guys to do from a slanting, stunting, reading blocks perspective. And so just allowing those guys to kind of weaponize their skillsets, play a little bit faster, play a little bit more confident, play a little bit freer.

35:53Robert Mays: I do think there's a path forward for somebody like this. I don't know what his ceiling is as a pass rusher, But I think the hope is exactly like you said, BJ Hill, TJ Slayton, McKinley Jackson, Chris Jenkins. If that's your rotation of four interior players, I don't think there is a eight sack guy among those players. But if you can have four interchangeable pieces, you know, Slayton being and McKinley Jackson being more run stuffing than Chris Jenkins is. If you can have those four kind of interchangeable pieces consistently be solid run defenders where you're in more second and eights than second and fours, then the vision of the defense starts to come together.

36:32Robert Mays: I don't think he has to be Chris Jones or Braden Fisk or Kobe Turner in terms of the pass rush production for this to come together. He just has to become a reliable piece in the way that some of these young Bengals defenders just haven't been to this point. I want to ask you that like we did with Rook Ororo. What is your confidence level that Chris Jenkins does get to that kind of level? I think it can happen. I think that he can become one of those types of guys again, where maybe it's not a disruptive, penetrating type player, but he can eat up space, take on double teams, just be a reliable player in the way that they need him to be the same way he was at Michigan.

37:09Robert Mays: Right. Like he was never drafted to be a star, but he was a top 50 pick. And if your top 50 picks aren't making up the foundation and the connective tissue of these units, then it's a nonstarter. Like you just have no shot if these guys consistently are not contributing to who you want to be on that side of the ball. And I think that's why, in my mind, he's just indicative of a larger question about this Bengals defense. Yeah, definitely. All right, we got two-ish more that we're going to hit before I say like eight other names as we close this out. But before we do that, we're going to take one more quick break.

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39:46Robert Mays: All right, what's your next one here? I'm a little bit torn between two NFC West players, but I think I'm going to go with the one that I kind of most wanted to see work out because I think it would make that team the most interesting. I'm going to go with Renardo Green, the corner out of San Francisco. Interesting. Was Byron Murphy the other one? No, actually, but it was a trench player in the NFC West. Byron Murphy, I've already chalked up to like, he's going to be good. So it almost like doesn't. I'm just like, he's explosive. Mike McDonald's good at his job. I don't even think about that one.

40:20But Renardo Green. So I think obviously this offseason, we've done so much talking about how the Niners completely retooled their front. I mean, they drafted four guys, I believe, up front. Obviously, their first round pick and Mikel Williams was a front player. We talked so much about how the run defense was bad last year. They bled a lot of depth along the pass rusher, all that stuff. And while all of that is true, and I do think the front is probably the most important part of the Niners kind of fixing the puzzle here on defense, I do think that the secondary is, you know, they're relying on a lot of younger players now.

40:53Malik Mustafa filling in for Talanoa Hufanga Jair Brown is only going to be a third year player and now Renardo Green I think they kind of need to be a really good second outside corner and he played about half of last season and when I went back and watched him he has some obvious limitations because of the way that he's built you know he's he's a guy who's just under six foot he's pretty skinny he's like 186 pounds and you see that sometimes like on on some of those dig routes where where guys are pushing off right at the break and cutting in he's probably going to lose a step because he just doesn't have the physicality to do that and then there are some moments where you know if a guy's running a bullet slant in press coverage you can kind of just shove him away and I think that that's going to cause some issues for him but I do think his ability to mirror guys whether it's in press coverage whether it's down the field a little bit to really keep up at the catch point which to me was the most impressive part you know he is a skinnier smaller guy.

41:49But when he needs to find the ball at the catch point, I thought he actually did a really, really good job and was really aggressive punching the ball out and locating it and all that stuff. And then as a run defender, you know, it's he's only 186 pounds, but he uses all of it like he's pretty active when he needs to tackle on screens and and come in and fit the run. So he's I don't know if he's ever going to ascend to the level where he becomes their number one corner and is a great player, but if he can take any degree of step forward and we expect Lenore on the other side to be a quality player, this secondary goes from just a lot of moving parts going into last year to like, Hey man, they've got some pretty good young players here.

42:28All right.

42:28Robert Mays: So I'm picking up on something with you. We, we, we had a segment on one of our previous shows. We didn't end up getting to that was going to show your excitement about Michael Williams. are you like sneaky optimistic about the Niners defense overall with Salah I feel like that you're building to that I'm I'm coming around to it like the more I like I think going into the draft and going into the offseason I was like god they have nobody and then the draft happens and I'm like okay I love Michael Williams but it's it's a lot of young players here and then I watched the defense a little bit more I think about how I believe Salah is still a good coach like I you know we talked about that a number of times during the season I was like he got fired because everybody else was incompetent in the whole Aaron Rodgers thing.

43:10But I think he is a good coach. I think bringing him back into the fold, hopefully Fred Warner is probably going to be healthy. And I think that's going to go a long way. If Malik Mustafa can stay on the field, like that's going to go a long way. I just there is some projection because it's, you know, like seven of their starters are going to be guys who are on rookie contracts, basically. But I trust the coaching and I like a lot of the young players they drafted. So I'm kind of getting there.

43:33Robert Mays: Yeah. I mean, how the interior pieces come together and how quickly those guys can be competent as rookies. I think that's the biggest question. And then obviously Michael Williams, because obviously they traded for Bryce Huff, but the whole thing about Bryce Huff is he's not an early down player. It's fun to me when you watch, when you look at that combination of Michael Williams and Bryce Huff, to me, it tracks and makes a lot of sense for 2025 specifically, because I think Michael Williams, based on the length and the way that he plays. and sometimes we do this too quickly where we say oh his floor will be this right like early on he'll this x will give him a floor but with michael williams i do think you can make a case that the length will give him as a floor as a run defender as a rookie and then you combine that with bryce huff's skill set and if you like kind of make an amalgamation of those two guys across from nick bosa it actually turns into a really serviceable number two edge player and then you combine that with some of the young pieces in the secondary.

44:31Robert Mays: And it's like, I don't know, I can kind of get there. Like, I don't think that they're the fifth best defense in the league, but I think they can be significantly better than they were last year. Exactly. Like they don't have to be the, you know, when they were at their peak three, four years ago, they don't have to be that, but if they can be better and I don't know, out of the five young guys that they're going to be asking to make serious contributions this year, if two of them are like clearly good players, I think this defense could be kind of above average. And if we if this defense gets to like kind of above average and then the offense goes back to something close to what it's been when they're not all just decimated by injury, this is a really good team again.

45:10I think this is like a kind of a tangent. This is the team I most regret the things I said like a month ago.

45:18I kind of think this team is going to be really good again.

45:21Robert Mays: I will say, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle where I think I have been too quick over the course of this offseason spring and summer to just give them the benefit of the doubt. And I think you probably been too quick to overreact to what last year was. It's likely some blend of those two. Like, I don't think they're immediately going to go back to being one of the best three offenses in the league if they're a little bit healthier. But I also think there's a lot of earned equity from what this team has put together over the last five or so years. Yeah, exactly. And now again, like with the offense, it's always been easy because Kyle Shanahan, right?

45:55But now with the defense, it's like, well, we have proof of concept that Robert Sala being here has been good for them. So it's I can buy into it again.

46:02Robert Mays: My last one here. And again, I'm doing another offensive lineman. You can say so many offensive linemen if you wanted to for this exercise. Here's a few more that I didn't get to, but absolutely could have. Patrick Paul in Miami. If Patrick Paul comes in and is a good left tackle or like a quality left tackle from day one, and that allows the slotting on Miami's offensive line to make more sense. Is this a group that can kind of sneak up on us, surprise us, give Miami a little bit more flexibility offensively and have that offense again when the quarterback is healthy, be one of the best units in the league?

46:37Robert Mays: I think that's on the table for them. Olufushanu, right? If Olufushanu comes in and takes a big step as a second-year player, that Jets offensive line has a lot of pieces that are easy to get excited about pretty quickly. Rookie right tackle is a whole different conversation, but if the rookie right tackle can be your fifth best starter as a top 10 pick in year one, that's a group that I think can sneak up on some people. Jackson Powers Johnson. if he's going to be a better player in year two with some of their young pieces on that offensive line what's that group going to look like and then tyler guyton and douse like tyler guyton has all the physical talent in the world i mean him and patrick paul both exceptional athletes can be and i think guyton showed this in year one is a very good mover in space just sloppy and inexperienced they bring clayton adams in in year two or in year two for him i think that some Some of the ways they might be able to weaponize him in the run game.

47:32Robert Mays: You combine that with, again, young pieces on the rest of the offensive line. I think there's a ceiling for that group. The one I'm going with, though, just because this unit has been a source of fascination over the last couple of years in bad ways is Blake Fisher in Houston. And with Guyton, I think it's, again, how much are we realizing the ceiling for that group? You know, how can he be like you already have Tyler Smith? We already have Cooper. B.B. is like a solid option. I think that the calculus is different in Dallas. For Houston, it's how many question marks do you have, right? How many guys do you know what they are?

48:09Robert Mays: And I think that's where my mind goes with Blake Fisher. Going back and watching some of his starts from the back half of last year, I'm not overly excited about him, right? I don't think there's really a ceiling with him as a player, but I think you can argue that he can get to a certain floor. He's not overly powerful. He's not a great athlete. But sometimes when you're taking those offensive linemen in the second round, what you're seeking out is, can we get starting level play? Can he be somebody that's reliable at that spot? And when you watch Blake Fisher play, he's really long and he does have decent foot quickness.

48:48Robert Mays: He can get to his spot. And so if he can weaponize that length and kind of clean some of this stuff up heading into his second year, and he can be a guy where in true dropback situations, he's a reliable pass protector. That helps start to change the calculus of what this group can be and what we can expect from the Texans offensive line this year. So you can say a 6-7 offensive lineman if you wanted to. He was the guy I landed on just because that Texans offensive line has been front of mind for way too long. I mean he in terms of how much could this change a team's fortune is the most important one so he's definitely the best pick for it I'm glad you bring up the length like because I think this is not a novel idea but length to me for offensive tackles like that's your margin for error exactly that's the floor setter to me if you have it it can get you out of problems it can get you out of trouble and so the issue with when I watched Fisher though is I felt like um and this makes sense for a rookie and especially one in an offensive line that did not seem to be coached very well.

49:50He just was mentally slow a lot. I felt like like on some of the offense, like obviously their pass protection stuff was just terrible last year. But even in the run game, just, you know, really committing to getting to certain spots at the second level, like he could do it physically. They were just it seemed like his head was always spinning. And again, for a guy who was thrown in maybe when he wasn't ready in an offensive line that was already terrible around him. I understand how all that stuff could hurt. So I think next year what you're looking for is if he if he can speed things up mentally a little bit and just get to a spot where he doesn't feel like he's swimming.

50:23I think that combined with the length you can again, I don't know if he's going to be a pro bowl tackle for you, but if he can get from struggling rookie to OK, this is a completely fine right tackle to have out there. He's the 17th best right tackle in the league, and that's going to be perfectly acceptable. I think that's a huge, huge win for this.

50:41Robert Mays: This Texans offensive line. That's exactly the type of range that you're looking at. And he's not the same player as this guy just because his frame is a little bit different. But the guy I go back to when I'm thinking about what's the best case scenario here, just in terms of slotting among tackles in the league, it's like what Donovan Smith eventually became for the Bucs. Right. And they're both second round picks. So it's like, can you get to a place where I don't have to worry about you, where I'm not sitting up at night being like, oh, my God, like what is Blake going to do against Joey Bosa tomorrow?

51:10Robert Mays: If that's not how you're living as Nick Cayley this year, I think that's a win for the Texans. And I do think that's potentially on the table. I don't think he's ever going to be a top half of the league tackle just based on the physical traits he's bringing to the position. And that's a dangerous combination where the fact that you're technically a little bit unsound and you're not bringing a high ceiling to the party, it's always a little bit of a concern. But I do think that with the length and with some of his movement skills, he can be somebody with a solid enough floor where it's giving you at least one more, if not spectacular than acceptable answer on an offensive line that has a lot of questions.

51:50yeah and again you're they're kind of shooting for acceptable for a lot of these guys but if he can get there if one of one of the other young players can get there and then cam robinson is what you paid for then like the offensive line does go from completely terrible to like okay we can be the 22nd best offensive line in the league and we can actually have a functional run game this year we can actually protect cj stroud enough so fisher is definitely a good pick before i i gotta say we you there was one offensive lineman i was certain you were going to bring up and you didn't, which was the other NFC West guy I was talking about, which was Isaiah Adams from the Cardinals.

52:25Robert Mays: Oh, that's a really good one. Yeah, that's a really good one here. Here's what I'd say about that. I think it's a similar discussion to the Blake Fisher discussion where you're shooting for a floor with Isaiah Adams. If you can get to a place where he's as good for you as Will Hernandez was two years ago, I think that's a positive outcome for the Cardinals. And so that to me isn't quite as exciting or sexy of a discussion, but I do think he's probably worth mentioning. Yeah, he just, I was, you know, I was just surprised when you ran through like seven guys, because I know you've talked about Isaiah Adams a number of times before.

53:00So I was just, I thought for sure when we were doing this show, he was going to be one of your guys.

53:05Robert Mays: There are plenty of others that we can mention. Like a Marius Mims applies to this conversation. Like if, if a Marius Mims can be a star, it changes the calculus of the Bengals offensive line. Troy Fontenou, if Troy Fontenou can be a good player And then you start to change the slotting of the Steelers offensive line. The one that I did not mention just because I don't want to spend more time thinking about it than I have to, because it'll make me uncomfortable. What is Roma Dunze in year two? Right. That's going to be a potential pivot point for the Bears offensive line. And the guy that actually was the catalyst for wanting to do this that we did not mention, but I think is worth at least throwing out there.

53:42Robert Mays: What is Dallas Turner in year two for the Vikings? this is a guy they moved heaven and earth to get and then wasn't a big contributor in year one has all the talent in the world if dallas turner can come in and be a splash player for that vikings defense combined with what they have on the interior now does that front suddenly become like the scariest thing you have to worry about on a week-to-week basis as an offensive coordinator yeah turner i just threw my hands up because at least with some of the other guys that didn't play much it's like okay that was probably injury or they were a fourth round pick so of course maybe they didn't play that much um and then at least some of the other guys it's like okay ruka roger only played like eight games but that's more than dallas turner gave us so at least i had something to go back and watch with turner you kind of just you just have to throw your hands up and hope the next year he can be better in that and that floor is gonna is gonna be able to get something out of him yeah a lot of the guys we picked i think this is just a natural way to do the exercise we're like first and second round picks mahogany is obviously an exception but he's going to be a starter.

54:41Robert Mays: And so that it's, they're treating him from a development perspective and a timeline perspective, like he is a day to pick. And so that's the fact that we chose from that bucket, I think is pretty telling. Those are the types of guys that you expect to be impact players heading into year two. So, you know, we, we had three each, but we ended up mentioning at least like 12 or 13 guys on this show, which is always the goal. Yeah. I started with like a dozen and had to whittle it down from like, is this guy too good already to even have this discussion? And then it was just like kind of had to whittle it down from there.

55:14Like I started with like Edron Cooper at one point, but I was like, he already played a lot and it's like kind of good. It's,

55:19Robert Mays: it's not in the spirit of the exercise because I think what we're talking about here is guys that could potentially kind of go either way and what that would mean for the unit. And I think Edron Cooper is probably too far to one side of the spectrum already. All right. Really enjoyed that. Hope you guys did as well. We will be back tomorrow on Saturday with our first beat writer notebook of the offseason. I'm going to be making 24 training camp stops. We've got beat writers, I think, at about 20 of those teams. So each Saturday over the next month or so, we're going to be collecting those conversations that I'm having and dropping them into the feed.

55:57Robert Mays: We've done that at times over the years. Very excited to get back to those. So tomorrow is going to be our first version of that. We've got Colton Pouncey from the Lions. we've got Daniel Popper from the Chargers. I'm hoping to talk to John Machoda today. And then we're going to have those coming to you weekly all throughout training camp. So very much looking forward to that. And then we will be back with four shows again next week before dropping that training camp notebook on Saturday. So be on the lookout for plenty of stuff coming from us over the next month or so for now. That's all we got.

56:30Robert Mays: I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

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