TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Bears, Raiders and 49ers beat writers

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1:02Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's our second beat writer notebook of the weekend. I did not end up going to Las Vegas for Raiders Niners joint practices, unfortunately. Had some stuff going on at home where I had to be at home. But I still wanted to talk to our beat writers there because I'm so interested in both of those teams. So we did that. Chatted with Deshaun Reed, chatted with Matt Barrows, just about the state of both of those teams. And then me and Kevin Fishbane got together at Hallis Hall to go over my personal insecurities, fears, hopes, dreams as they relate to this version of the Chicago Bears.

1:35Robert Mays: We're kicking it off with Kevin. Let's get to that conversation right now.

1:44Robert Mays: Joining us now from Hallis Hall in Lake Forest, it is one of our Bears writers at The Athletic. I have to say that again. Ken Fishbane, how are you doing, man? I'm good. It's good to be back on with you. Could be back in another Bears training camp where hopes are high, I guess. I mean, my first question, and it's always tough. I have a ton of respect for this media core. It is. I was literally thinking this while I was watching the press conference with Ben today. It's crazy how many people are in that room compared to other teams. It's wild, like the amount of people who cover this team. But I think the questions asked and the answers is an incredibly high level discussion for a press conference setting.

2:20Robert Mays: You guys do a very good job and he's willing to engage with you in a way where you do get something out of that, where I think that's not always the case. So I appreciate that. But there's also a lot of coverage of this team based on what the press corps looks like. And I think a lot of the tone of it from afar has been that the offense has been a mess. And so I am curious, as someone who is here every day and has watched this, is the sky is falling mentality around all this right now warranted in your mind? Well, I mean, we are prone to gallows humor around here. Yes. And I think I told you, I joked with you last week.

2:58I said, here we go, Rob. We can talk about another Bears first-round quarterback who's having a shaky second training camp with a new head coach and new scheme and the defense is playing well. And, hey, that backup quarterback is looking pretty good. And are we worried of this first-round pick? Like all those things. It's like hard to – like we can – you know, logically say Caleb Williams is not Justin Fields is not Mitch Trubisky. Like I, I will say like, those are different people. These are different coaches they're dealing with, but it's hard to sit here in this building and go through some of this stuff year after year and not be like, shoot, I remember what happened last time.

3:37Yeah. I've seen this movie before. Yeah. And what, what, what I think that what I always try to write and always try to say is I think the difference is Ben Johnson. I think that, you know, Ben Johnson is not Matt Eberfuss is not Matt Nagy and I think that matters um this offensive line is not the offensive lines that those other guys had and then the question is Caleb what what is Caleb Williams so to answer your original question I I think it's been up and down I think it's been bumpy at times bumpier than you'd expect probably my my biggest concern is I feel like Caleb Williams has not been as accurate as he was last year just like the precisions of his throws last summer stood up more than this summer now i don't know if that is a hyper analysis and i'm not taking into account x y and z um but that that's the only thing that's like i'm a little like i kind of feel like i've seen him miss more throws than i'm used to but like there have been some really good practices i mean you were just out there with me and you know the way he handled the end of half drill he made some big time throws and that's what he's capable of so i'm just i'm fascinated to see as we all are what it looks like obviously on September 8th and how much his run game is going to support him how much his defense is going to support him and and then how much some of these playmakers are going to support him because unlike those other two guys in their second seasons maybe Mitch in 18 like he does have a lot around him there's no doubt I mean that room is crowded

5:00Robert Mays: and it's a good problem to have but it's still something to sort through which we can talk about here in a second we don't have to go over the whole Ben Johnson thing again it was the correct process in the moment, right? When where you are as an organization with the quarterback, his timeline, needing to get him to the right place, picking a guy who has been the coordinator of one of the best offenses in football for multiple years without an elite quarterback, it's the right pool of people to choose from, right? This was the correct process. If this doesn't work, I'm at least okay with how they went about finding the coach and why they landed on him.

5:30Robert Mays: Two specifics from this practice, and I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but I'm going to anyway, that I think lead me to have confidence in what the structure of this looks like. That two-minute drill that you're talking about. And today was like an unscripted practice. They're calling it live. And so it felt more like a game. And so there was a third and eight or a third down where there was a pressure look from the defense. There's trips to the left. Caleb is looking at the pressure look, flashes a little hand signal to Colcomat, little quick out, balls out immediately. They get the first down.

5:58Robert Mays: And so I think that the flexibility built into the offense and his feel for that, that's a good moment. There's another third down where they line up in a spread formation. It's three by one to the left side. And he looks at the defense, sees the spacing. They shift into a more condensed formation, but he has a man's own tell based on that. Immediately finds Ole Maynard Zaccheaus underneath. He gets the first down. Those little details of how I'm making the game easier on the quarterback, those are the things you're going to see. And so that creeping up more and more and even just seeing a little bit of that on day one, It's like the details of this offense are going to set the quarterback up for success.

6:35Robert Mays: I don't know when I've ever been able to say that with any sort of confidence at this stage. And I think if you're trying to convince yourself of how it can be different, that is the basis of how it can be different. I want to get to all that. But one quick thing, Zacchaeus, he's been one of the more impressive guys. And you got to see him and made one of his better days. Super useful player. Just like he's there when you need him to. He catches everything thrown his way. Eventually, it's going to be Luther Burden in that role, presumably, when Burden gets there. But when they made that signing in March, before drafting Luther Burden, that was a guy where it was like, Washington did not want to lose him.

7:15And the Bears got him, and he just kind of has been the safety valve for Caleb Williams. I thought Roman Duns had one of his better practices today as well. There was a ball that was maybe not fully on target. that it was one of those where he just went up and grabbed it, which is what he did in college so often. But you're right because we look at – we always talk about this. The best play callers put their quarterbacks in the best positions to succeed. And you want your play caller to cater his offense to the talent around him and not force his guy to play in his system and all those things.

7:45And it's just like if Caleb Williams – the theory of the Bears is we are making training camp as hard as possible for him so that when the regular season comes and it's Brian Flores in week one and it's the Lions defense in week two and on and on and on. He's like, oh, this is fine because I had to deal with Dennis Allen and this nonsense all summer. So that's their kind of they're prefacing it with that and then just giving him these answers, giving him these options and trying to find ways for him to make it easy.

8:16Robert Mays: The push and pull and how they're weighing this is very interesting to me because in talking to somebody on the offensive staff today and trying to get a little bit more detail about, OK, this idea of we're giving him everything and then we're going to pare it down. What does that entail? And what I was told is essentially they haven't repeated stuff. It's all new almost every single day. And when you're doing that, you can't get better at anything. It's mostly about learning what you're bad at. And that's what Ben Johnson said this morning. He's like, we're still in the process. And the reason that we're doing it this way is that we have no idea what's going to work and what doesn't.

8:49Robert Mays: And we're deciding what we're going to pare down when we get an understanding of we're good at this, we're bad at this. I'm curious how you find the balance. How much time do you need to start working on the things you're good at in order to get really good at them by the beginning of the regular season? But we're still three weeks away. But if you're trying to be optimistic about maybe why it's looked uneven, is that they haven't tried to get good at anything. It's solely figuring out what is going to work and what's not. And so hearing that, I can try to spin it in my mind of, okay, I feel a little bit better about what I've heard about some of the bad practices and how uneven it's felt.

9:23And my question to them would be, do you need to see a practice in which Caleb Williams is just automatic? In which Caleb Williams just, you know, pew, pew, pew, and just hitting guys left and right and leading drives downfield and building a ton of confidence and putting up touchdowns and getting first downs. Like, do you need to set up a practice for him to do that by putting in some of the things that you know he's good at? Like, is that important to you to see? To build confidence, too. Right. To like have him see the ball go in, I think will be helpful. Yeah. It's the basketball. it's seeing the ball through the net seeing you know the proof positive what you're doing we haven't seen a practice like that there have been some good practice there have been some not so good there have been some ones that are herky-jerky and so like i sit here and i'm like i would just love to be able to tell everybody who's not able to be here this was the day this was the day that caleb williams became quarterback but that is probably not the way they're looking at it i don't think it is whether they should or not i think is an important question and like i don't know like i don't know if like if that's just to me being like again sitting here through all these different quarterbacks who have come through here and been like i was waiting for the day that mitch would put it all together you're waiting for the day justin put it all together and you're kind of like all right well now it's caleb is there going to be these days where you can get to because like what's the number like the number one question that you get when you're walking around town is how's caleb going to be yeah how are the bears going to be and when people ask me i'm like well i can only judge off what i see at training camp and like i haven't seen enough practices for me to feel super confident this thing is going to click early.

10:51That might be okay. My whole thing, Robert, and you would have a great perspective on this because of covering the whole NFL, is what should our patience level be with Caleb Williams?

11:03Robert Mays: I think it has to extend into the regular season and a decent amount into the regular season. I think so too. When you look at Goff and you look at all these different guys who have these just different career arcs and like Jaden Daniels and what CJ Stroud done is it like screwed up the paradigm in a way like this is hard and this what Caleb Williams had to go through from going from Matty Bruce and Shane Waldron to Ben Johnson and Declan Doyle like that's a huge shift for somebody who's 23 years old and and every you know everything that he's going going through so it's like I want to be able to sit here and say let's see this let's see this out but then you look at the roster moves Ryan Poles made you look what's around him you look what other quarterbacks are doing it's like well how much how long can do we have to wait for us to be able to say yes he's the guy, they're good to go.

11:47They can move forward.

11:48Robert Mays: I mean, I don't know if you even have that this year. I think what I want to see them start to turn a corner is probably midway through this season. I think that's enough time where you're like, we know what we're good at. We know what he's good at. We know how to put him in the best positions to succeed. So I want to ask you, when the season ended last year, did you feel I know the Bears have their guy? No. Right. And when people ask me last year, they're like, what are their expectations? I would always say to them, you want to know in January, you want to feel the way that Texans felt. Now, maybe that's too high of a bar, but you want to feel the way the 2023 Texans felt at the end of the season.

12:21No matter what happens, we have our guy. And you just couldn't. It was hard to feel that way about Caleb. He saw a lot of good things amidst a mess last year. And so now it's like it's almost like take two. You want to get to January and be like, okay, we know the head coach is here, and now we know we've got our guy.

12:37Robert Mays: And I think that's a fine timeline. If it takes that long, I think that's okay. But if you're telling yourself right now, we know he's the guy, You're lying to yourself based on what last year looked like. I completely understand how it unfolded the way that it did because the circumstances were so bad. But I think the circumstances are good enough now based on multiple seasons of Ben Johnson being the architect of one of the best offenses in football, combined with the personnel that they put around him, even if it's imperfect in some ways. I think there's enough here to know by the end of this season which arrow the direction, which direction there was pointed.

13:07Robert Mays: And the Bears have never had anybody like this with Ben Johnson. There's no doubt. They truly never hired someone with this background ever. in my lifetime. There's never been a guy who was the architect of his former offense as an offensive coordinator hired to be the head coach. Matt Nagy was the offensive coordinator for Andy Reid. No one with this background has ever been the Chicago Bears head coach in my 37 years on this planet. Honestly, the closest thing that ever got to that in terms of a play caller might have been Adam Gase, which sounds wild when you when it came out of my mouth. But when they brought when John Fox brought Gase here in 2015.

13:39But that's it's a Peyton Manning thing. Yes. Like

13:41Robert Mays: Like with anybody who's been pushed off of that Peyton Manning tree, Gase, Mike McCoy, like it's there's been a lot of missteps pulling off of the Peyton Manning tree is all I'll say. Right. But it is somebody who like people, you know, yeah, you had to acknowledge the Peyton Manning thing. But at least you're like, OK, this guy knows what he's doing. We've got this proof that knows what he's doing. But you're right. I mean, the Ben Johnson thing, like you just look at what the Lions did and it's like, wow, like that. He did it. He did it the highest possible level in football. And I like Jared Goff.

14:10Robert Mays: Jared Goff is not one of Peyton Manning or Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. I think it's totally fine to say that. Let's talk about the personnel on offense and some of the questions that need to be answered. When you're talking about when the switch, when they turn the switch, when it's like, all right, now we're starting to prepare for the regular season. Seeing Ozzy Trappio at right tackle today, that's a signal in my brain of we're starting to get there. Because if he's going to be your swing tackle, you need to see him start getting reps at right tackle so he can play it if Darnell Wright gets hurt.

14:38Robert Mays: And so that, to me, is a sign of how the left tackle thing might be trending. Where if Ozzie's getting snaps on the right, he might be the swing guy. And when Braxton Jones gets healthy, it might be his job to lose. So I think that's really the only unsettled spot on offense as it currently stands right now, correct? Correct. What you would love to see is Braxton Jones get every single first team rep at left tackle, if that's the case. Which didn't happen today. You had Theo Benedett, who is an undrafted guy out of Canada who didn't play last year. Super curious about why they did that today. and to bet on his credit like one of the first practices out here i remember him stepping in as the second team right tackle i was like oh okay that's like for him that was a big step to be in the mix to be one of the guys who makes the roster that's how we were talking about when we first week i'm like that's a big deal for this guy and now he's someone suddenly like the guy who was fourth in the left tackle competition was out there with the starters today and maybe there's just today maybe his crying on my god she comes back from the most recent injury he has he mixes in i just like you want your left tackle who's going to be your left tackle in week one to be getting as many reps as possible maybe braxton jones doesn't necessarily need as many because of his experience i don't know but uh that that was interesting today to see what they did with ozzy because you wanted to come out of the preseason game and show up today and have one guy be the guy at left tackle maybe that's asking too much but that would have been nice for them to come on preseason game and go, oh, yep, we know that Braxton's our guy or we know that Ozzy's our guy.

16:11Instead, it's, okay, we need to get Ozzy's to work on the right side. He's not ready to be our starter yet. This Canadian guy, Theo Benedict, is showing some spark and Braxton Jones still needs some work. And that's not, I mean, again, all the matters is the guy in week one does a good job. Maybe it doesn't matter how you get there, but you'd like to see that guy get more reps.

16:29Robert Mays: This team has done a lot over the course of this training camp in the interest of competition. They've done some weird stuff, right? Like they could say whatever they want. When Jalen Johnson's healthy, Tyreek Stevenson is starting across from Jalen Johnson. It's not Nashon right. But I think that they've been really conscious of this. And they've been conscious of this in the messaging and how they've handled practice reps. And so I'm inclined to think there's something involved there where like in the interest of competition, we're going to do something a little bit weird. If I had to put money on it right now, I think Braxton Jones would be the starting left tackle in week one.

16:56Robert Mays: And I think that's OK. People on the outside that maybe don't understand this roster quite as much, I think, are looking at this and being like, well, oh, a second round pick might start at left tackle. And kind of ignoring the fact that Braxton Jones has been the starting left tackle for the last two years. If Braxton Jones is your best offensive lineman when healthy, that's a problem. If he's your fifth best offensive lineman when healthy, that's OK. And I think that's probably the direction this is headed, where Trappio will be the starter starting next year when Braxton Jones moves on. But for right now, the guy with experience, there's at least a backstop and a floor that he's going to give you at that spot.

17:29Robert Mays: And I can get on board with that. Best case scenario for the Bears is Braxton Jones starts every game at left tackle, does a fine job, signs a four year,$120 million deal somewhere else. You get the comp pick and you feel really good about Ozzie starting in 20. I think that's exactly right. That would be that would be the best case scenario from a roster standpoint. And obviously, the way that you feel good about that is knowing is making sure you feel good about Trapillo or Amagotchi or and or Amagotchi. You got two day two picks back there. And the hope is that Kieran can be the swing tackle moving forward.

17:59Robert Mays: And I think that's a totally fine thing for this to all play out in the receiving core. I think it's mostly going to be a matter of how when does Luther get on the field? And how often does he play with those other two? The way that they see the skill position talent is the way that I understand it is. Even if Luther and DJ both have this real run after catch ability, Luther's route running allows him to play in the slot and be a little bit more of a nuanced player than DJ might be. So the idea because when they drafted him, I was like, there's a little redundancy here, but they don't necessarily see it that way.

18:30Robert Mays: So I think having Luther, DJ and Rome all play together, they don't really see an issue in that and 11 personnel. And I assume as we get a little bit deeper into the season, that will be the trio that we see more often than not. Yeah, I think so. I mean, Burden is just going to be a playmaker. He went to the second best journalism school in the Midwest. Now I think it was a journalism major, but should note that just for our listeners. I appreciate that. But yeah, I mean, the after the catch stuff, it is fun. I know it's practice and they're not hitting. Well, they did do some hitting today, but like when he catches the ball, the way he turns and goes like that first step is really, really fun.

19:05I mean, you saw it at Mizzou, especially in 2023. So, yeah, I think that that he's that guy. I think they know they can put DJ anywhere. Yeah. In the backfield. We've seen a lot of in Canada.

19:15Robert Mays: That's another thing. It's going to be so nice to watch DJ Moore deployed in the way that DJ Moore should be deployed. Again, an imperfect player, but Ben Johnson knows how to use him in a way the previous staff obviously did not. How are you going to feel about the wide receiver screens? Fine, because I think that they'll be well designed. I think they'll be well applied. This isn't John Shoup world. I feel good about how those are going to look. It drives Bears fans nuts. There was a time that they did it with Justin because it's like he and Caleb, they've got to get the ball out quick, and this is the best way to do it.

19:45And then people go crazy because they've got to get tackled four or five yards behind the line. But if you watch Detroit and you watch some of these ways they do it, if it's designed up well and you get the ball in these guys hands and it makes things easier for Caleb, he can make those throws. And the other thing, too, is with Caleb's arm angle, he can do a lot of different things with those plays. I just I think it's born to prepare Bears fans that you might see some wide receiver screen. You should.

20:06Robert Mays: With these pass catchers, you should see some of those because those can be explosive plays. The tight ends. I'm not really worried about it. I think that Cole is somebody that you probably need to manufacture space for. Colson is somebody that can create his own separation. And so in 12 personnel, I actually think this idea, when you're living in 12 personnel, the goal is for if they line up in nickel, we can grind them down with the two tight ends. If they line up in base or some sort of big nickel, we have a tight end that we think is a matchup advantage on that bigger nickel player. I think with these two guys, if Colson is who they think he is, that is a realized thing for this offense in a way where it's theoretical for other offenses so how many snaps he's going to get and how it all shakes out i don't really care i think that their 12 personnel has a chance to be a strength of this team in a way that it's not for a lot of other teams if it's cole or colson and 11 and who gets more snaps and all that other shit i don't really care at this point colson is smooth and yes it's been it's been fun to watch him i think He has been as advertised and he does not look like a rookie out there, which is a high compliment.

21:09I want to see him obviously in games and see what he does. But you can see how different the two of them are a little bit and how you can use them both of them. And one thing Ben Johnson has talked about before is the early part of his NFL career being in Miami in the same division as New England. And the way that New England deployed tight ends. Now, he was talking about this through the lens of how the Patriots would find different ways to beat you every week. who the matchup was. And I always, oh no, I'm blanking on the running back's name. Jonas Gray? Yeah. Was that the guy who showed up against the Colts?

21:41Nobody had heard of him. He ran the ball like 30 times. I always think about that game. And Ben Johnson was on Miami staff for those years when the Patriots were just dominant on offense. And they had Gronk, obviously, and then they mixed in some other tight ends there in 13, 14, 15. But he saw that, and he saw the way that offense just used so many different guys every week. And I think that a lot of that has kind of shaped his perspective on how to how to attack teams. I think that's right.

22:06Robert Mays: And I think that as you try to figure out like roles and workloads for fantasy in this team, I think, has real potential and people trying to tap into that. It's going to be frustrating. I was like Belichick was known for as a fantasy. It was the worst. And I think that's what's going to happen is it's going to be different every week based on what's going on. And I do think that all the pieces can come together in a cohesive way that makes sense to me. The running back spot is the curiosity. After DeAndre Swift, how do you think this all ends up shaking out? Well, I'm really glad that I got a lot of praise sent to me about Kyle Mononga when he was drafted.

22:37So I was kind of like, I would respond to people. I go, we're talking about a seventh round pick. I loved watching Mononga. I watched a lot of Big Ten football, too much Big Ten football, some might argue. And I love the guy in college. But I understood his seventh round pick. And I go, guys, he's a seventh round pick. Let's slow down a little bit. But then you've seen him out here and he pushes the pile forward. He doesn't go down at first contact. He's been, you know, Roshon Johnson's out right now. Roshon has had injuries throughout his career. Now, I say that saying I was really eager to see Roshan Johnson because you'd want to talk about another guy who came out of the draft with a lot of praise.

23:08I mean, talking about him on the field and off the field is just the perfect guy. So I think if Mononga is your, you know, I think you're OK with those two.

23:19Robert Mays: It does seem like it might be trending that direction where he might actually be Roshan out. Well, especially if Roshan can't get back on the field or can't get back right away. I think that's something to watch. I think, you know, Bearish Hands can be excited about it. I think the address just had a fine camp. I know it's really hard to judge running backs in training in a training camp setting, but I think he's been fine. I know. Look, he's never going to be what they paid him. That's fine. And I think it probably hurt that he was in the same class as Saquon and Jacobs and Henry and the guys that obviously were dominant last year.

23:50And he wasn't. But if you go watch the run against Washington, run against Green Bay, I know I'm cherry picking like London. you know when they when the offense was playing well you saw what deandre swift could do so i but you need i just don't think that he could be you know i don't know 250 you don't want to be 250 carries no like that's where you you're gonna asking mononga iroshan johnson to be that guy to really make this it's like i mean it's a totally you can't compare it to montgomery and gibbs like that's how far away this combo is going to be but you have to look at that as like a reference point of what Ben Johnson wants.

24:27Robert Mays: You need an innings eater, right? And I think that's the back they don't have right now unless Benunga kind of takes that role. And it seems like he might. On defense, there are just fewer questions to me, right? Like Jalen Johnson, based on everything Ben Johnson said today, it sounds like he's on track to start week one. And they're going to start, I think, folding him into some practices at some point to get him some mental reps. But he's a veteran. He'll probably take to it. I do think Tyree Stevenson won that other outside corner job. Kyle Gordon's supposed to be back. We know who the linebackers are.

24:53Robert Mays: We know who the safeties are. the defensive line has a lot of new bodies this year. I think the argument is probably we're going to come in waves, even if we have no stars. I can talk myself into the defense being pretty good, and I don't think there's a lot of unsettled personnel questions with that group. Do you have any? Where do you sit with that? No, I mean, I want to know what their answer is for number three defensive end, because if you're going to slide sweat or O'Dangbo inside on passing downs, you need that guy, whether it's Austin Booker, Dominic Robinson, to be good. but do you want to take Grady Jarrett or Jervon Dexter off the field on those downs too like I don't think with Grady it's probably more about workload over the course of the years an older player and I think that third defensive end spot is probably the one that's worth bringing up like because Booker was really good in the preseason opener but I think I think they like Dominique Robinson the front office does and so really impressed with him he had a really good spring he's a good summer um they've always known he's an incredible athlete you know played quarterback wide receiver before he moved to defensive end so maybe they're getting the most out it's interesting seeing guy like him guy like Noah Sewell who's had a good summer you know guy like Booker guys from the previous coaching staff who were just kind of like these day three picks who were not doing enough in the regular season they're now having these strong summers so now you got to see in the regular season my biggest reason for hope on the defense is the three guys I would highlight as being some of the best performers this summer are Montez Sweat, Tremaine Edmonds and Jaquan Briscoe.

26:18The first two, you need them to play at the level of their salary. Just based on resource allocation, you need them to be very good players. And Sweats has had moments of dominance. And he hasn't missed a practice. Same with Edmonds. He's had some moments where he's flashed. And you're like, okay, that's the Tremaine Edmonds that they signed. Maybe again, you go back, probably overpaid. I hate saying overpaid. Forget I said that. Because it's free agency. It's what you do. But he's only 27. Like I simply there's room for him to he doesn't have to you the way you were talking earlier about Braxton Jones.

26:51You know, Jermaine Emmons is on a higher level and he's getting paid on a high level, but he doesn't need to be the best player in your defense. And then Brisker has been flying around. And I just think that was somebody when he came out. There was so much excitement about what this guy could be as a playmaker. Unfortunately, the biggest worry with him is you just can't control it. There's just nothing you can do about it. You just have to kind of hope and pray that he avoids another concussion. and he's talked about he switched helmets and he wants him. He knows to keep his head out of the play, but it's been fun to see him playing like the player he was supposed to be.

27:22So the fact those three guys are having good summers, the fact those three guys have been out there every day, I think is really positive.

27:28Robert Mays: I think the ceiling of the pass rush will ultimately go a long way in determining how good the defense is. And if that group can play more than the sum of its parts, if Montez Sweat can be, if not a dominant rusher, then like a definitive number one rusher, like somebody defenses have to consistently worry about. and all the other pieces fall into place, and you get better play from Dio than you got in Indy, which is the entire point of signing second contract free agents, is that you're trying to project into the future. I can squint and see them being a really good unit. I get that. I don't think there are that many holes personnel-wise, even if the ceiling is probably limited because there are no dominant players up front.

28:01Robert Mays: If this can be the eighth best defense in the league, this is all going to be about what Ben Johnson gets out of the quarterback. And again, like we said at the top, it's the same movie we've seen over and over and over again. And I just personally have to think that this one ends a little bit differently because I can't approach it any other way. And look, they had the best defense in 2018. And we saw the wonders that did for Mr. Biscayne that offense. And we also saw an offense that year that took the took the league a little bit by surprise. I think a lot of people didn't really know what to expect out of Matt Nagy.

28:32And they benefited from an incredible season for Tariq Cohen and offensive line health and a lot of different things. So now you have a guy you feel good about. and if they can be a top 10 defense again it's just it's field position you have the special teams too it's a good special teams unit so i look this you the bears fans have always wanted a quarterback they can win because of not a quarterback they just win with and i think williams is undoubtedly talented enough to be that guy that he you can put he could put the team on his shoulders but right now you want to give him as much support as possible as he grows into this thing and i think that they built this roster in a good way and we didn't we touched on it earlier but the tooney dolman jackson trio in the interior i think is just gonna make such a massive difference for him no doubt i mean how many times did you watch him especially late last season he's escaping the pocket way too early because he just didn't trust the guys in front of him and i think that's gonna really really help um the run game obviously but also just giving him that comfort that he can make some place in the pocket the pieces are there the pieces are there

29:35Robert Mays: at the skill position talent. Look at this. We went from the start on the offensive line. But none of this matters if the quarterback doesn't come together with a play caller. And I think I have reason to believe that can happen, but we're in wait and see mode until it does. Kevin Fishbane, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always good to see you. We'll do this very soon. All right. Thank you. See you. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for? The one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded? I found it. And trust me, it's not what you expect.

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33:36Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Raiders writer here at The Athletic, Deshaun. Deshaun, great to see you, man. Thanks for having me, man. Good to see you again. How are you doing? I'm bummed that I could not come to Las Vegas this week. I was originally going to come there for Raiders Niners joint practices. I could not do it any longer based on some stuff going on at home with our new dog. So I missed that. But I still wanted to talk to you and Matt Barrows, our Niners writer, because I had already planned on doing it. And I'm fascinated by this team. So that's one of the reasons I was bummed that I actually couldn't make the trip.

34:06Robert Mays: I want to start on a big picture level here. The Raiders over the last couple of seasons, you're bouncing between head coaches, you're bouncing between general managers. It didn't feel like there was much of a cohesive or coherent direction. I think that's fair. I don't think that's not ungenerous to say about where the Raiders were. You bring in Pete Carroll, you bring in John Spitek. And I think even if Pete Carroll's this deep into his career, the hope is that you're moving towards stability. And so I'm just curious on a day-to-day level, as somebody who's covered this team for multiple years, what differences have you felt between the Pete Carroll Raiders and some of the teams that you have covered over the last couple of seasons?

34:42I think the biggest difference so far this year is everything they've done has made sense, which I know sounds like a little bar, but given that they've had as many head coaches and GMs as they had since I've been covering a team, which isn't that long. That's that's progress for them. Right. And I think they were very intentional in offseason about making sure that they got their GM and head coach on the same page. They had all these kind of weird situations arise from firing people in the middle of the season and things of that nature. And going back to this offseason, initially, they just fired Antonio Pierce.

35:13People might forget, you know, initially they were keeping Tom Telesco around. And the plan was, you know, to hire a new head coach and have them work together in sort of an arranged marriage. But then they huddled together. And by they, I mean, Mark Davis and minority owner, you know, quotation marks around minority owner, you know, Tom Brady, you know, got together in Vegas and had some meetings and talked about it. And they decided that it'd be best to start with a clean slate. And that's when they moved on from Telesco and moved forward with their process. And, you know, everybody knows, I'm sure you guys are Bears fan, you know, you know, they went hard for Ben Johnson, did not get him.

35:46But they did have a plan, you know, that wasn't, you know, all their chips weren't on the same table. You know, he landed on, you know, Pete Carroll and then obviously brought in John Spitek, who has a lot of history with Tom Brady from playing together at Michigan, also working together with the Bucs when they won the Super Bowl down there. And so there's a lot of alignment from top to bottom there. You know, there's familiarity with the GM. Everybody knows who Pete Carroll is. You know, so even though Spitek hasn't worked with him in the past, he respects him given his accomplishments. And so I think they started off from a good place.

36:13And then when you turn to the roster, you have Max Crosby being that leader and that figurehead on the defensive side of the ball. And then you fix, you know, the biggest problem that this team had from a roster perspective, quarterback and getting Geno Smith and also a guy that sets the tone on that side of the ball. And so, you know, this roster still needs a lot of work, in my opinion. But when you kind of just look at their big ticket moves, you know, since, you know, this year began hiring Pete Carroll, Spitech trading for Geno Smith, extending Max Prosby on a deal that's already aged really well.

36:41When you look at some of these address your contracts out there, everything sort of makes sense. Like, does that mean this team is going to be a playoff team this year? Like, probably not. But I do think that they can start trending in a positive direction and you can kind of see the vision for what they're building for, you know, moving forward.

36:55Robert Mays: Does it feel different day to day? Just even being at training camp, what the practices feel like? I mean, there are elements that just feel different this year because Pete is there and it just feels like a more, I don't know, buttoned up NFL type of operation. It feels more professional, I guess is the way I would put it. You know, it feels like everybody kind of knows what they're doing and they're all, you know, working towards the same thing. And I want to say, like last year on Antonio Pierce, like the team culture was already in a good place. Like it was very positive. You know, he had that part down.

37:25The players really rode for him all the way until the end. It's just sort of those ins and outs of being a head coach that he just didn't have a great grasp on yet. And I mean, the gap in terms of experience between him and Pete Carroll is so vast that you would you're not surprised by that. But that stuff matters, you know, and it comes through and the way that they constructed their coaching staff, their day to day operations, all of that. But at the same time, it's not like it's all serious and business and buttoned up. Like the start of every practice, for example, they do this weird little like drill where the coaches are like losing their mind.

37:56They usually play like some kind of hard rock or like a loud rap song with an aggressive beat or something. And then they're just like running around. Somebody has like a giant Pete Carroll fat head. He's in there running around. And it's like just an energy drill, you know, kind of just and they have the basketball. You see the basketball hoop in the indoor facility. They still do the shit like that, like the Pete Carroll kind of fun, loosey goosey stuff. And he's, you know, I saw him at one practice, he like jumped in a tush push for some reason. Like he didn't tell anybody he's going to do it.

38:22And he got stuck on the bottom of the pile. So you see stuff like that, that like, you know, feeds into the team chemistry stuff. But he's also like, he's been doing this for a million years and knows what he's doing from an operational standpoint. So you kind of have the best of both worlds with him.

38:37Robert Mays: This offense, I think, is an object of fascination, curiosity for a lot of people heading into this year. You know, Geno being dropped into a situation where your best pass catcher is a tight end from last year. You draft a running back in the top 10. It's just an interesting collection of pieces that I actually have some hope for on the other side. Like, I think this can be a fun offense to watch. What have the early returns been just watching Geno day to day with this collection of pass catchers with Chip Kelly? Yeah, so I think it's been a little bit up and down throughout training camp. And I think a lot of that has to do with what I think is going to be the central issue or, you know, kind of deciding factor for this offense is that offensive line.

39:14And then that was a unit that, you know, it was really rough last year. They were one of the worst run-blocking units in the league, and they didn't pass for Techwell either. And he didn't really do much about it in the offseason, which I think surprised a lot of people, including myself. Like, they signed Alex Kappa. That was really their only, you know, addition of note, and he's already pretty much been working with the backups at this point. And so it's basically the same group of guys from last year. And so you're putting a lot of stock in the offensive line coach, with Brennan Carroll, Chip Kelly, and Pete Carroll collectively being able to coach that group up.

39:42I don't know how good that's going to work out. And when we saw with Geno Smith the last couple years with the Seahawks, they had a really rough offensive line and couldn't really run the ball. And that's when we saw his interception numbers start to go up, and he kind of fell off from that first breakout year that he had with the Seahawks. And so that's kind of the big question, and that's been sort of the fulcrum of this offense to this point. I do think they've gotten, I mean, obviously it's a massive quarterback upgrade in Geno Smith. He's a guy that can make difficult throws Even when it might not look open He can navigate pressure in the pocket He's mobile enough to escape and move around And mitigate that Ashton Gentry is a talented back Not just working out at the backfield But you've seen him splitting out wide Working from the slot Running legitimate downfield receiver routes Kind of like you see from a guy like CMC or Camara So they're going to use him in that way Brock Bowers obviously was an all-pro And Jacoby Myers, he's a guy that's Probably not a number one receiver But he's a really, really good number two receiver and a consistent guy from that standpoint.

40:38So they have those pieces, like you were saying, on offense. And Chip Kelly, I think, has shown some growth from the first time that he was in the NFL. But that offensive line is sort of that big question mark. It's like, are they going to be able to make this all work? Can they run the ball? Can they protect Geno Smith? I think that's still a question that's kind of hovering over this group.

40:54Robert Mays: I have some faith in the offensive line and the individual pieces on the offensive line. I thought DJ Glaze, who's their right tackle, he was a third-round pick last year, had some nice flashes as a rookie, justified bringing him back as a starter at right tackle and just kind of figuring out what the interior would look like. And I'm going back and watching the offensive line in the second half of last season. I actually liked a lot of what they got from Jordan Meredith, who was playing guard for them last year. And then when they signed Alex Capo, when it seemed like they were going to move Jackson Powers Johnson, their second round pick from last year over to center, it felt like Meredith would be the odd man out, but he's been playing center for a vast majority of this training camp.

41:27Robert Mays: And they've actually moved Powers Johnson to guard. Have they explained the thought process behind why they thought that was their best five, even though it seemed like Powers Johnson had been drafted to play center? Yeah, so part of it, and like, you know, JPJ, you know, was drafted to play center, and he prefers to play center. I mean, he's been pretty candid about that publicly. But, you know, like they're trying to get the best five out there. And I think with Meredith, while they liked what he showed last season, Pete Carroll, he just thinks he's too small to play guard, like he said in the press conference.

41:59And so he thinks he's a really good player, but center will be a better spot for him. And when you're kind of taking it into account Like Jackson Powers Johnson You believe he's a better player than Alex Kappa At this juncture, his career And so it just makes more sense to slide him over Because they believe he could be as good of a guard As he is a center In their mind, they think he could be an all-pro player At either position at one day If he develops properly And so slide Meredith over to center Moving him over to guard Which we saw him play last year He started games at left guard and right guard Jackson Powers Johnson So it's not foreign to him It's not something he hasn't done before at the NFL level So, you know, I think that's how that group of five came together.

42:35I know a lot of people have been worried about, oh, do they not like JPJ? Like, it's nothing like that. It's just a matter of, you know, what unit gets your best five on the field.

42:42Robert Mays: And that's not surprising because, again, I thought Meredith actually showed pretty well last year. And him being one of their best five, I can totally understand that based on what we saw from him last season. The pass catchers, we know what Brock Bowers is going to be. I think Jacoby Myers is a very nice player with better quarterback play. I think he can be productive. how they're figuring out these other two outside receiver spots and the way that this is shaken out. I mean, you did your 53 man roster on the athletic this week and you had Dante Thornton, who is their fourth round pick from this year, just penciled in as a starter with Trey Tucker.

43:12Robert Mays: I mean, that's a ton of speed outside and it feels like that's kind of how they're constructing that room. But it's a little bit of a surprise, no, to have a fourth round pick, just have that clear of a path to a starting role here on August 11th is when you wrote that. Yeah, especially considering than they drafted a receiver in the second round. That's what got a lot of people's attention in Jack Besh. But part of the reason why I think Besh has fallen behind in that competition, because it's pretty much been since OTAs, Dante Thornton, Trey Tucker. That's been the start of two outside receivers since then consistently.

43:43And so it was decided pretty early on. Yeah, it's been that way since they got here, essentially. But with Besh, when you look at his college tape, whether he's at LSU or TCU, really his best snaps came when he was kind of in that big slot role right and you already have a guy in Myers who's essentially a slot receiver you have Brock Bowers when he's not there Brock Bowers is your slot and so where are the snaps at for Besh right unless he can be a guy that can consistently win outside and his game you know he just doesn't have those that speed you know to be able to pull away from defenders on the outside to beat guys off the line of scrimmage in that way and so he's a little bit redundant with Myers and I think that's been the issue whereas Thornton while he didn't have much college production.

44:25He's 6 '4", 6 '5", and ran a 4 '3 flat. So, you know, he obviously has the measurables. He's somebody that Geno Smith is very comfortable with, you know, throwing up those jump balls with him. And Trey Tucker, you know, is kind of the inverse of that. He's smaller at like 5 '9", 5 '8", but he also has 4 '3", 4 '4", speed. And he's become a more nuanced route runner as his career has gone on and has had a pretty good training camp as well. And so both of those guys are speed guys on the outside. You have Myers as sort of that, you know, slot guy working on the inside. there just hasn't been room for Besh.

44:55And I think this group that they have is really light in terms of being, you know, proven production. Like Trey Tucker has been an okay player throughout his career, like more like a receiver three or four. And now you're, you know, banking on him to be a starter. And Dante Thornton, we haven't seen him play yet at this point. And so I get why people are worried about that outside receiver spot. And we kind of saw that against the 49ers today in joint practice. Those guys were, you know, they were pretty much pressing them almost every snap. And those guys were struggling a little bit to get off of that.

45:21And so we'll have to see how that goes when the season rolls around. But that seems like that's going to be the plan. Like, I don't see that group changing at any point before the season gets here.

45:28Robert Mays: And Myers is a free agent after the season, correct? So you essentially have a succession plan with Jack Besch there. This is probably should have started with this one talking about the offense. What is this thing going to look like? Like Chip Kelly first go around as like an offensive coordinator in the NFL after all the time he spent in college. structurally like what do you think the dna identity kind of the things this team hangs its hat on an offense what should we expect from that i have full disclosure i've not watched their preseason game yet so i've not gone back and studied it so just structurally i'm very curious about this i'll tell you now don't waste your time watching it because you'll get nothing out of it like they basically ran nothing they ran shotgun the entire game they didn't take a single snap under center like they just ran the most vanilla thing in the world so you didn't see anything in a preseason game, you won't see anything on Saturday.

46:14But in terms of what the offense is going to look like, I think it's changed a lot from what people probably are accustomed to when they think of Chip Kelly, those earlier years in the NFL, or even with Oregon. And we saw it a little bit at Ohio State last year at the college level. But I think particularly given the lack of receiver depth, you're going to see a lot of 12 personnel with this group. Brock Bowers we talked about, but also Michael Mayer. He's a guy that people forget. A couple years ago, he was the consensus number one tight end coming out of college and expected to do big things.

46:41Hasn't quite panned out yet. Last year, he had some personal issues. He was away from the team for about six games. He stays back now. He's in a better place mentally and emotionally and physically and seems to be back to himself. And they're expecting big things out of him. And so I think they're going to roll with that 12 personnel group pretty often. I think they led the league last season in 12 personnel usage. It just wasn't very effective. So they're hoping that that's better for them this year. And then anytime you draft a running back with the sixth overall pick, obviously you're planning to run the shit out of the football.

47:08So it's going to be a lot of running the ball. They kind of switched to this zone-based blocking scheme, which they experimented with last season. It didn't go well with Luke Getze as their offensive coordinator. Then they kind of switched back to the gap schemes. Now they're going back to the zone scheme. And I think the makeup of their offensive line, that kind of fits their guys best. Like they kind of have those lighter, more athletic offensive linemen. They don't have those big bruising type guys outside of probably JPJs and all that guy that fits that mold. And so I think it's going to be, you know, kind of more old school than most people would probably expect for Chip Kelly.

47:38A lot of running the ball, a lot of heavier personnel usage. He's still going to mix it up, of course. You're going to see that 11 personnel and splitting it out wide and kind of those little screens and short passes and getting guys the ball out in space and allowing them to create. But I think that's kind of what it's going to look like for him. Chip Kelly's kept it pretty close to the vest in preseason games and even in practice. He's not doing anything too crazy to this point. But it's going to be a lot different than probably what most people are expecting out of Chip Kelly.

48:07Robert Mays: Bowers as a GNO believer, Gentie with somebody who likes Jacoby Myers and somebody who believes this offensive line can be a solid group, right? There's going to be no stars here, right? Colton Miller is a good left tackle. I think that they have some young promising pieces. If you can get to middle of the road with that group, I think that's a win. You combine it with everything else. I'm excited to watch the Raiders offense. I cannot say the same about the Las Vegas Raiders defense. And I think that Patrick Graham has done an excellent job as a defensive coordinator for pretty much his entire tenure, whether it was the Giants, whether it's been with the Raiders.

48:37Robert Mays: There's a reason that Pete Carroll retained him when they came in with the new staff this year. It's hard to upgrade from a defensive coordinator of Patrick Graham's caliber. My question is what the hell the personnel is going to look like? Obviously, you move on from Christian Wilkins. And I bring back Malcolm Koontz, hurt last year. He's back in a one-year deal, really flashed in 2023. He's a player worth betting on. Other than those two guys, Max Crosby and Malcolm Koontz coming back from injury, what part of this defensive front should I feel even decent about because it's nothing but questions here like as you look at position even the corners on this team I understand the story you're trying to tell yourself with that the interior defensive lineman on this team and the depth on the defensive line it feels like you're holding on to your hat is anybody surprised where I should feel better about this than it looks on paper not really and I mean okay good you know I think the elephant in the room here is obviously the Christian Okins situation.

49:35Like, you know, last year they signed him to a massive extension. You know, they expected to have this monster defensive line with Malcolm Koontz and Max Crosby. And I don't think anybody really blinked at that contract. Like it made a lot of sense, but it just didn't pan out. I mean, he only played five games last year, had that Jones fracture. And then it became this weird situation this offseason where, according to sources, You know, the team believed that he needed a second surgery in order to repair that foot and be able to play. And they discovered that in March. But he didn't want to get the surgery.

50:05And that remained the case by June. And then that's when they voided the guarantees in his contract. Ultimately ended up releasing him in July after some other things happened off the field between him and some teammates. And, you know, that was a guy they were banking on. I mean, Christian Wilkins. I mean, you know, people kind of I know he's only had like one pro ball in his career, but he's one of the better defensive tackles in the league. I mean, pass rush upside He's an incredible run defender And so to take that out Kind of unexpectedly at this last minute It was after free agency, it was after the draft That you knew that you weren't going to have him around They just weren't really prepared for that And so you kind of just have a bunch of guys around At defensive tackle, you know what I mean?

50:43I mean, you have Jonah Lulu And J.J. Pagouse And Tonka Hemingway, a bunch of guys that are either Rookies or guys that haven't done anything yet Adam Butler, I would say, you know The last couple years, he's been a nice player for them as a rotational sort of pass rusher. I do like Adam Butler. I think it's like a penetrating

50:59Robert Mays: pass rusher. He's got something to him, but that's really where the list ends. Yeah. That's it. And he's not really known for run defense either. And so I think that's a huge concern, especially when you factor in their linebacker position. Like if it was 2019, you feel great about their linebackers. But today I think it's Jalen Smith, it's Jamal Adams, Devin White, Landon Roberts, Jermaine Pratt. So it's like a bunch of guys that like, they were good at some point, but But are they, how good are they in 2025? Like, I don't know, you know. So I think that middle, kind of the spine of the defense all the way through.

51:33I feel pretty good about Jeremy Chan. I think he's been a good player. But there's some real concerns. And you saw that, I mean, right off the bat against the Seahawks. I know it's preseason, but they gave up 170 yards to the Seahawks against, and that was with their backups playing. Like, they didn't even play their starters. And so it would look pretty rough. And I think that's going to be, like, a huge concern for this defense is, what's the answer there? Because I don't really know what it is.

51:54Robert Mays: seems like a landon roberts has kind of established himself as the starter at my climb back which i totally understand what a landon roberts is like he's a downhill thumper you can rely on him on early downs we know what a landon roberts is at this point how real is this jamal adams thing because it seemed like he got signed as almost like a curiosity with p carroll kind of giving him a shot they move him to linebacker they explicitly tell him they're moving him to linebacker and by all accounts even things that you've written it sounds like he has a real shot to like get playing time at that weak side linebacker spot next to a landon roberts Where are we at with that right now with Jamal Adams?

52:26Yeah, I mean, he's in the mix for the starting job at Will Linebacker, which sounds kind of crazy to say given he's never played the position before this season. But it made sense in theory. I mean, you know how athletic he is, his instincts, how effective he's been as a blitzer throughout his career coming down from that safety spot. He gained a little bit of weight, so he's heavier and able to throw his weight around in the box a little bit more. But he looked pretty natural out there in his first preseason game against the Seahawks' old team. I think he had three sacks, or three, not three sacks, three tackles, and also had a pressure on Jalen Milrow.

52:55And so it looked pretty good. And they just don't, I mean, another part of it is they just don't really have a great answer there otherwise. I mean, it's Devin White who's coming off of a rough couple of seasons of his career. Jermaine Pratt, you know, I think is the guy that, you know, when he signed kind of at the end of OTAs, it was expected that he would probably just take a hold of that job because I think he's been a pretty solid player with the Bengals the last few years, give or take. He's probably better in pass coverage at this point in his career. But he hasn't really been doing too much in training camp since he got here.

53:24And I think he's left it pretty open still. And so Jamal Adams, like, you know, there's nothing guaranteed. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's a starter week one. Like, he's definitely going to be in the mix there. And I think also another part of the equation, like, they don't really have a nickelback, which is another issue for this defense. They lost the Hives, but they let him walk in free agency to the Packers. And they didn't really replace him. So Jeremy Chin has been lining up at Nickelback a lot, but he's not always going to be there. When he's not there, it's been Darnia Holmes, who, you know, I mean, at this point in his career is not doing much for you.

53:53So we've seen him like work some three linebacker sets in there, which like I don't really know how much that's working in 2025, you know, either. So, you know, it's going to be weird. Like, so he might just end up playing kind of in some funky lineups that Patrick Graham has to get a little bit creative to try to fill in some gaps on his defense. But it seems pretty likely that he's going to have some type of role on his defense at linebacker.

54:14Robert Mays: When Jeremy Chin steps down to play the nickel Who's the other safety? So it was Lonnie Johnson Yeah, that's what I'm saying, Lonnie Johnson Did go out for the season, so who the heck is even back there? He might come back, he might So they say he broke his tribula You know, it sounds like there's a decent chance he might Return somewhere around like the mid-season mark But still, that's a lot of games, you're gonna have to do Something without him So far, it's been Chris Smith Who was a good college player with Georgia But, you know, the Raiders drafted him a couple years ago And hasn't done anything in NFL He's just been a special teams player.

54:44And so, yeah, that's it. That's it right now.

54:47Robert Mays: So all you need to know about how particular Pete Carroll is with the cornerback body types that he likes is that I think you could make a real solid argument that this was one of the more unsettled cornerback rooms in the NFL when it came to proven talent. Even the guy, it seems like they're betting on more than anybody else. Eric Stokes, formerly of the Packers as a first round pick, has really struggled to stay healthy over the course of his career. So it was a precarious situation from the start. And then they traded a guy who played a lot of football for them last year, Ja 'Cory and Bennett, for defensive tackle depth because he's not big enough to play for Pete Carroll.

55:22Robert Mays: So now you're rolling with Darian Porter, potentially, who is a third round pick. Eric Stokes, who, again, how many games has Eric Stokes played over the last few years? And Darnay Holmes, who you just said, they're trying to keep off the field because they want to put another linebacker out there. Tell me why I shouldn't be terrified about this I don't really have a great answer for you If you are a Raiders fan, why you shouldn't be terrified Because it's all traits, right? That's it It's guys that are 6 '3", ran 4 '340s at some point in their life They're athletic Peaky girl guys That's pretty much how they built out their cornerback room DeCamion Richardson is another player Who he started out of necessity last year He was really rough It was a rough go for him He's been in the mix on the outside as well With Stokes and Porter trying to, you know, jockey for positioning.

56:09As of late, and, you know, it's like a new thing as of this week, Q Blue Kelly has also been in the mix at getting the starting snaps at cornerback. So it's not the most impressive collection of names. And the Ja 'Cory and Bennett trade, like I think it was very clear, like from practice, you could tell, I mean, he was running with like third stringers at some point, he just wasn't in the plans. It wasn't performance-based though, because he looked really good to me. And last season, he only played 10 games because he had a torn labrum, but you look at some of his advanced statistics, like some of those numbers, like yards per target allowed, he was like, he had the same number as like Pat Sertan.

56:45So, you know, he was like really good last year. And so just trade out a guy like that because he's 5 '10 and not 6 '3, like, I don't know, that kind of struck me as odd, especially given how precarious the rest of the group is. And if the pass rush isn't amazing, like, I think this is going to be a group that gets picked on pretty much every week because, you know, Eric Stokes at this point in his career, like he's okay at best. You know, Darian Porter, you like the physical skill set. But I mean, the guy has hardly played cornerback. Like in college, he had more special team snaps than he had snaps at cornerback because he was a converted wide receiver.

57:18So like I know he had Tariq Willen in the Seahawks and that worked out great. Like maybe he's Tariq Willen. But, you know, it's just it's hard to imagine that this is an issue this season. Right. And so I think it's going to be something you kind of have to take their lumps this year.

57:31Robert Mays: So let me walk through what I see as like the ideal two-year plan for this version of the Seahawks based on what they did this offseason. This year, you just want the offense to be a good offense from day one. Like if they're not a top 10 offense, then somewhere in the middle of the league and where it's like, all right, this is proof of concept. The offensive line gels. Some of the young receivers show flashes. Brock Bowers emerges as a star. Ashton Jensie does the same. And we're a competitive offense from the start. And we can build on this moving into 2026. we have 80 ish million dollars in cap space next year we'll be able to spend a little bit to microwave the defense and by the time we get to next season we'll have enough firepower on both sides of the ball to be competitive in the afc do you think that is a fair representation of how they're thinking about the way the next couple years should go yeah i think if you gave them some truth serum like that's the answer right i mean all you have to do is look at their moves this offseason like they had a ton of cap space this year and they really didn't make that big splash move outside of obviously trading for geno smith and giving him a 35 year old quarterback right right but like they didn't really do anything else you know even though they knew they had these issues at offensive line at cornerback at nickelback linebacker um more depth of defensive tackle they're just like you know we'll just save this money and roll it over to next year anytime a team does that that lets you know they're not really pushing all their chips into the table and i think that's smart because they took over a roster that just there's so many holes on both sides of the ball like unless you just have the greatest draft of all time and nail every free agency sign in this team just they're not going to be able to compete for a playoff spot this year especially in this division which might be the best division in football you could argue um and so you also don't know your roster i mean think about when jai spite gets hired think about how little time you have to actually evaluate where the holes are coming in and writing a bunch of checks and trying to solve every problem you don't even know where those problems exist and so i think we see a lot of misguided decisions when you're trying to accelerate it that quickly them taking a step back and saying our swing is going to be the quarterback because we want some stability.

59:24Robert Mays: We'll figure the rest out in time. I'm totally okay taking that sort of approach. Yeah. And I think also part of it is this free agency class was pretty weak. I think by all considerations. Yeah. So it's like, you're just going to go give guys a bunch of money just to say you're giving guys a bunch of money. Like when has that worked out for anybody, let alone the Raiders with all their free agency misses? We just talked about one earlier in the show. So I think it makes more sense to try to do that next year in terms of going out and getting a few guys. Um, and then, you know, also part of it in terms of like it not being like a super long-term rebuild, Pete Carroll is going to be 74, you know, this year.

59:56And so like, this isn't something where it's like, they're just pushing it down the line. Like you have to go for it pretty soon when you hire a coach that old. And so I think it is a year or two type of thing. Like, all right, we're going to free agency this year. We need to get some guys in the draft, you know, obviously fill up whatever holes remain from there. And then you feel like you hope that you're in a position where you can go for it and compete in that division and hopefully make some type of playoff run. So I do think it was a two-year vision kind of from the jump. Like, obviously peter i know he said it like the first week of training camp he's like oh i've been winning 10 games for 20 years cool but like this raiders team like if they win 10 games like you know he's he's one of the five best coaches in the league again you know all of a sudden if they're

1:00:34Robert Mays: winning 10 games chip kelly and uh patrick graham are going to be very strong head coaching candidates come january especially patrick graham i get it i'm excited about the chip kelly thing i love geno i think that they have some interesting talent on offense but patrick Graham was going to have to cook for this team to be competitive in 2025. I'm open to that idea because he is a fantastic coach, but there's just, there's not a lot of talent walking through that door on that side of the ball. And we've seen him do it before. I mean, that 2023 team, you just look at the roster. Like you wouldn't have thought it would be anything crazy on defense.

1:01:04And he had a top 10 defense. So I guess before, so I won't rule him out. You know, he's one of the better defensive coordinators in the league, in my opinion, even though I know the numbers don't look great last year. So he could do it, but you know, the odds just given the state of his roster, like they're just so thin in some of these spots. It's going to be, like I said, it's going to be tough sledding.

1:01:19Robert Mays: The floor on offense is going to be so much higher, though. And again, this is going to be a group that I'm actually looking forward to watching. And I cannot say that about the last couple iterations of the Las Vegas Raiders. Tashaun Reed sincerely appreciates the time, my friend. Great to talk with you. We'll do it again soon.

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1:02:04Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is one of our San Francisco 49ers writers here at The Athletic, Matt Barrows. Matt, great to see you. Good to see you. Excited to do this. A team that I think justifiably a lot of people believe is going to bounce back in a big way this year that starts with just better health period so that's where I want to begin this conversation I just want like a health check for the San Francisco 49ers offense as we record this on August 14th Christian McCaffrey healthy Trent Williams healthy where are we at with Juwan Jennings right now because there was a thought that this was a calf injury slash contract situation Kyle Cal Shanahan has repeatedly said that's not the case.

1:02:43Robert Mays: If Juwan Jennings is hurt right now, when can we expect to see him back? Cal Shanahan has said that this is similar to something that he dealt with at this time last year. Now, we never got, you know, they don't have to put out official injury reports. So we never heard calf last year. We heard more oblique issues. but Shanahan's point is that this is something he's dealt with in the past it kept him out of practice in the past it didn't affect him at the start of the season so that's what the 49ers are expecting and so he's a big part of this offense because there's not going to be any Brandon Ayoub to begin the season and there's not going to probably be any Demarcus Robinson, who's been a really good, steady contributor in practices.

1:03:37So they're going to start the season with John Jennings and Ricky Pearsall as their one and their two. It's really unclear who three through five are at this point because of those issues. And because the guy who looked like he was going to be the three, Jordan Watkins, fourth round pick at Ole Miss. He suffered a high ankle sprain last week and he's out a month. And that's going to take him out of the September 7 opener in Seattle. So if you're talking about, you know, injuries and the biggest concerns heading into the season, I think that wide receiver is far and away number one.

1:04:18Robert Mays: Without Bayouk, it was always going to be fragile. And now it feels even more fragile missing those two guys. my assumption we're going to see a lot of 21 and 12 personnel from the san francisco 49ers early in the season would you say that is a fair solution to this problem that you guys have seen so far yeah for sure uh 12 personnel i mean their biggest uh free agency addition was luke farrell a um who's that tells you a lot about their offseason plans right not not he doesn't he doesn't catch passes he's a blocker through and through he's like having a third offensive tackle on the field, I can only assume that 12 personnel is going to become a big deal for this team and that he's going to be out there.

1:04:59Obviously, George Kittle is out there. Kittle has been the best looking guy this summer on the field, certainly for the offense. So that's sort of a saving grace for this team. He's been really hot. He and Brock Purdy have been in sync. Christian McCaffrey has been in the offense. They're not using him a lot this summer for obvious reasons, but I do think that he's healthy. They're just not going to overuse him in August so that you don't have him in January. So, I mean, when you have those two, plus Brock Purdy, plus Trent Williams, I think that the offense is still going to be effective, but boy, it's not full throttle at this point.

1:05:45Robert Mays: how has Ricky Pearsall looked over the course of practices because obviously he had that flash late in the season he's a huge part of their plans not just from an availability standpoint at the position I think in a lot of ways what Ricky Pearsall brings to the offense is an indication of the evolution of this offense we saw that start last year which is more drop back and how opened up things were and Ricky Pearsall is just a different sort of receiver skill set than Kyle Shannon has really sought out and I think it really speaks to where this group is going so he's a key component of that receiver groom coming together and I think the vision for the offense coming together so what have we seen from Pierce all over the course of two and a half weeks of camp here so far it's been good and I think you're right it's hard to overstate his importance for the future and the immediate future given what I just said I mean he's going to be the starter they're going to have to rely on him to to get open and to to catch a lot of passes early, his forte is route running.

1:06:43He's sort of the separator, the make sharp cuts, create space between him and the defender, gives Purdy a good target. And to his credit, he had such a disjointed season last year for reasons we all know well. He spent a lot of time with Purdy in the offseason. They worked out together in Florida. They're both from Arizona. They worked out together there. They started to really get that chemistry together. And they both came away from the 24 season saying, yeah, there's room to grow there. So I think that was a big step in the right direction. You know, I was about to write back in the spring, right before OTA started, that the single most important guy in OTAs for the 49ers is Ricky Pearsall.

1:07:32And lo and behold, he had a hamstring injury right off the bat, knocked him out of all the spring practices, knocked him out of the beginning of training camp. But he came back a couple of weeks ago and he's been good. He's he's shown up. I think some of that is fresh legs. You have to always keep in mind that the new receiver is going to look splashy because he hasn't been working out for 10 straight days. But I do think that those skill sets that Shanahan identified are there. They need somebody who can beat man coverage. Lots of man coverage last year after Brandon Ayuk went out and after CMC went out as well.

1:08:18So they need somebody to do that. And I think that's the wave of the future. That's how they're going to marry this offense to Brock Purdy's strengths and Brock Purdy's weaknesses. He's not a big arm. He's not Josh Allen who's going to find the slightest opening and fire the ball in there. He needs open receivers. He's a timing-based quarterback. And so I think the thing with Pearsall is, and you saw the Denver Broncos doing this to him in the joint practice last week, they got their hands on him. They roughed him up. They rerouted him. He's got to be able to run through that and keep that timing that he established with Purdy together even when there are all sorts of obstacles in his way.

1:09:04Robert Mays: Last receiver question. Any sort of clarity on a timeline for Brandon Ayuk? Not clarity. Kyle Shanahan did give the most specific timeline recently. He said around week six, and he said that as a sort of a catch-all for anyone who's coming off a 2024 ACL. So there are three guys on this team that have that, brandon iuk being the uh the most prominent among them and so he said yeah i always think about week six for those types of guys i i don't think that i was going to be there for the first four games i think my my sense is that he comes back he sees um i forget what the term is where they say that you you can you can start practicing with a team the ramp up period yeah in the window they call it the practice window is open i think they'll open his practice window after week four and then he'll practice with the team in week four and week five and then maybe it's week six maybe it is week six i think they play washington um somewhat ironically since that's the team that he wanted to get traded to last year uh in week six so that could be iuk's uh 2025 debut now then then we go through the process of is this the real iuk how long does it take for iuk to to look like iuk his 2023 self.

1:10:24So, I mean, that's probably another two or three weeks. So basically second half of the season is when you might see the quote unquote real Brandon Ayuk.

1:10:36Robert Mays: And the real version of this offense, because I think his role in all of this allows everything else to come together. The Christian McCaffrey being healthy part, but not really being a huge part of practices. Should we be worried at all about his physical state heading into this season? Do you think that we will see a version of Christian McCaffrey similar to the one that we saw in 2023 when he came into training camp healthy? I do. Now, that's because I've been watching him in the spring and in the summer. And when he's out there, he looks like himself. He's 29 years old. He has a history of these types of injuries.

1:11:13I mean, is he going to play 17 games? I don't know. You know, the older you get, especially at that position, the more prone you are to having something. So I just know that he looks good right now and that the 49ers are happy about that. I don't remember him getting a whole lot of run in the 2023 summer and preseason either. he worked out heavily in in the spring that year and that was just sort of remember he had come in in 22 he was still sort of finding his timing in this offense zone running offense it just takes a lot of practice to do that I think he was doing that in 23 in the spring but I feel like he mastered that in the spring and in the summer I don't want to say he was on autopilot but he was he was not you know pushing the accelerator down hard in 23 and yet he had the season that he did and I think it's very similar to what he's doing now the guys behind him I know there's a lot of

1:12:18Robert Mays: injuries there right now I think they just brought back Jeff Wilson because they're so banged up there is that a situation where you think Isaac Aurendo has a pretty clear path to the number two job there do you feel like Jordan James who they drafted in the fifth round could potentially be in the mix if McCaffrey were to miss time yeah Jordan James is is hurt too he's got a a broken finger that required surgery so he's out they're both out for at least a couple more weeks here um I think Renda looked looked good when he was practicing um I guess that the silver lining is that he's a guy that's had all sorts of lower body injuries hamstring injuries throughout his college career and last year as well and this is a shoulder issue that happened on a on a kick return drill um so you see him out at practice he's doing a lot at practice he's not going to fall out of shape it's not going to be that long ramp up when he's back so i i do think he'll be the number two um you know the guy who's looked really good is the undrafted um rookie uh cory Kiner out of Cincinnati and um you know if he plays ahead of Jordan James this would you know fit perfectly into the 49ers pattern of you know they they draft uh Joe Williams in 17 but it's Matt Breida the undrafted guy they draft Trey Sermon but it's um Jordan uh Mason yeah exactly there's a long history of under drafted guys outperforming more highly drafted players especially at running back and it's falling into place you know ty davis price is a uh trace sermon both the third rounders that got outplayed by somebody drafted after them and it um i'm not saying that jordan james is getting outplayed he's just not he's just not there at this point and i think i saw trace sermon and ty davis price at some point this week i saw ty davis price is on the packers right now so that was a moment where i saw him and then i i guess trace sermon's on the steelers now.

1:14:15Robert Mays: I thought he was still on the Colts, but he's actually on the Steelers. I do remember seeing him at Steelers training camp. So those guys are still around, just no longer a San Francisco 49ers. As someone, I just want you to what is your response to someone like me who looks at the way this team approaches the offensive line every year and finds it frustrating? The idea that Aaron Banks is going to move on, it's like, all right, Ben Bartsch, you're the next guy up. We're just going to get by with this again. And it's an organizational philosophy. They clearly believe in the way that they approach it.

1:14:47Robert Mays: How do they communicate to you guys why this is the way they want to build and construct this offensive line every year without a lot of high end resources? They communicated that they feel as if playmakers are more important than linemen. that if it's a choice between a lineman in the first round and a wide receiver in the first round, they're going to go wide receiver if their evaluations are the same. Because they think that the gap between that playmaker in round one and the playmaker that they can get in round four or round five is significant. They think that the gap between the offensive lineman they can get in round one in the offensive lineman they can get in day three is not as wide and that they can coach that guy up to be a good player.

1:15:45Now, is that has that borne fruit over the years? You could argue, make a great argument that their issue at right guard cost them the Super Bowl back when they played the Chiefs in Miami in 2019 season and in Las Vegas in the 2023 season. Big mistake by the right guard, Spencer Burford in that game in overtime, cost them a touchdown. And then Patrick Mahomes goes down the field, scores a touchdown, they win the game. So, I mean, that philosophy of playing it cheap at right guard in particular, and I know they've got Dominic Pune there right now. They didn't play it cheap with him. He was a second-round pick last year, but he sort of fell into that role.

1:16:32I think that they had drafted him thinking that he would be the bank's replacement at left guard, and he had to make an emergency substitution last year at right guard, and it worked out very well. But the point is that they're not going to pay a lot of money for guards. It was not a surprise when they didn't pay earned bank because they hadn't paid any guard previous to then. This is where they save money. They save money at guard and they save money at safety. And that's where they go cheap. And that's that's their philosophy. And there are a lot of fans. Robert, I can tell you that you are among thousands and thousands of 49ers observers who say, why isn't this team drafting an offensive tackle high?

1:17:21I mean, Trent Williams is 37 years old. Trent Williams has not started a full season since dot dot dot 2013. So more than a decade of him missing, you know, a few games here and there. My point being is that, you know, his his backup is probably going to come in this season. And who's his backup this season? It's the guy I just talked about. It's Spencer Burford, who's now a tackle because it didn't work out a guard. So they moved him to left tackle. So, I mean, that whole storyline is sort of fraught if you've been paying close attention. So that's a big question going into this season. And, you know, one that they've answered, but whether they've answered it adequately, I guess that depends on the listener.

1:18:13Robert Mays: I think it's important things to point out for this reason. The best version of this Niners offense, if things fall into place, this could be the best offense in football. We know that. I just think it's a little bit more fragile than you want it to be. More coin flips have to come up heads than you probably want for them to realize that path. And so I get all the justified excitement around this group heading into the year. But a couple of those coin flips go the other way. And this team may be kind of fighting upstream a little bit more than you want it to be. So something to keep in mind as we kind of build our expectations for who this Niners team is going to be on offense.

1:18:45Robert Mays: That's all that time on the offense The defense is actually where the biggest questions are So we get to the defensive line Obviously they spend a ton of draft capital On the defensive front coming into this draft They draft Michael Williams, the 11th overall pick CJ West in the fourth round Alfred Collins in the second round Kevin Gibbons, I believe, just went on IR He's been a mainstay for them on the defensive line A defensive tackle for a long time I mean, do we just assume that for most of this season Michael Williams, CJ West, and Alfred Collins Are going to be the guys that we see the most with Nick Bosa?

1:19:15Robert Mays: Are they going to rely on the young guys to that level? Yeah, there's Jordan Elliott, who's another veteran at defensive tackle. I think they'll lean on him early on for sure. But I mean, it goes back to what we were just talking about. You know, why didn't they spend more money bulking up the offensive line? Were more resources doing that this offseason? Well, they revamped the entire defense practically. You know, three quarters of this defensive line is going to be new. It's a new weak side linebacker. That's the Drake Greenlaw position. Young, young secondary. I mean, they could have one newcomer, Jason Pinnock, from the Giants playing at one spot to open the season, and then a fifth round rookie, Marquis Segal, playing at the other safety spot.

1:20:04So a lot of changes on defense, including the defensive coordinator, which is a change with a big asterisk since he's he's been here before Robert Sala um but yeah that's that was the focus of the draft is the defense first five picks were defensive players and um you're right you're going to see a lot of those guys playing early Mikel Williams and probably CJ West he got injured today hyper extended his knee in Las Vegas um so he won't be in this upcoming preseason game against the Raiders, but he's played well to this point. He's been a quick learner and has shown the strength and the savvy to, I think, reassure the 49ers that he can play early as well.

1:20:53Robert Mays: You mentioned the safeties and all the uncertainty there. Is that a situation where Jair Brown, is he penciled in as a starter or is that entire room kind of uncertain with Malik Mustafa still being out? Yeah, the whole room is uncertain. Pinnock has been out recently with a heel injury i actually think that he's the the safest bet to start interesting he played for sala uh with the jets he was a cornerback at that point um he got cut got picked up by the giants and then saw liked him enough to bring him back so he's a safety now um played a lot for the giants in recent years absolutely that just kind of underscores where this team is at that spot i I mean, they just had a joint practice with the Broncos where Talano Hufanga looked really good for Denver.

1:21:41He was their guy in that secondary. He and Malik Mostafa looked really good together. Talano Hufanga was a free agent. Malik Mostafa, in the season finale, hurt his ACL. So he's one of those week six guys that I was describing earlier. So they have to sort of kind of fill things in until then. And I think, I mean, I would guess that the day, the week one opening safeties are Jason Pinnock, who I just I just talked about, and this guy Siegel, who's a fifth round rookie. And that would sort of fit into this idea of, OK, we're going to take our lumps early this season, but we're going to get quality time out of some of the younger players.

1:22:27And we're going to win enough games in the first half of the season that in the back half, we're going to be better for it because of all the receiver dynamics that we discussed, because these rookies are going to be more experienced. And because the back half of the schedule is way easier than the first half of the schedule. a lot of home games a lot of games against teams that were bad in 2024 i think that's what shanahan and the 49ers are thinking did has jair brown just kind of fallen out of favor with the

1:22:58Robert Mays: staff there is that a reason that we're seeing a little bit of a shake-up he's been injured too because okay everyone's been injured um and um he was drafted when steve wilkes was the defensive coordinator on the 49ers the the coaches have a lot of say in and who gets drafted um he was their top pick that year. That was one of the seasons where the top pick went in the Trey Lance trade. So Wilkes got, you know, a pretty good sway in who he wanted to bring in. He brought in Jair Brown. He hasn't been great to this point. And I wonder if he makes the team. I wonder, you know, if they could get a sixth or a seventh rounder from the Jets, which is where Steve Wilkes is now whether they would do it um but um you know he's certainly in the mix to start because like I said everybody else is injured right now he's he's he'll start Saturday against the Raiders for example he'll start with Siegel um next to him but um yeah I think that once Pinnock comes back he's probably the veteran of the group in there and that Siegel is sort of the the rising star and the corner seems a little bit more settled in part because their third round pick up and stout has apparently been in the mix at the nickel spot from the beginning right so it's going to be him on the inside with diamador lenore and renardo green at the two outside corner spots is that pretty much settled at this point i'd say it's pretty much settled this point the 49ers will never admit that they're they've circled a rookie to play in week one but he's been good he's been consistently good he too is injured at the moment um i don't think he'll play against the raiders uh but um out of central casting for a nickel cornerback small feisty quick um likes to likes to chirp on the field he's full of energy uh exactly what you would want in in a nickel cornerback they've been fantastic at identifying guys at that spot i'm talking about kaywon williams when lenore was playing in there it's something that they've been able to cycle through pretty efficiently since kyle shanahan got there now eight years ago my god we're all getting so incredibly old but we're relying on a lot of young guys on that San Francisco 49ers defense.

1:25:12Robert Mays: Chris Kosarek and Robert Sala have their work cut out for them this year, but they needed to do something because things had fallen off there in a big way. No, for sure. And that's part of the reason why they brought Sala back. He's got, he's got experience rebuilding defenses. He did that. He did that here in 17, his first year as DC. And of course he did that when he became head coach of the Jets. Matt Barrows, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. We'll do it again very soon. Sounds good. Talk to you guys. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Kevin Fishbane, to Tashaun Reed, to Matt Barrows.

1:25:50Robert Mays: Really enjoyed all of those discussions. I hope you guys did as well. Just a quick reminder, tomorrow on the Athletic Football Show, the first episode of Building the Beast with Dave Hellman and Dane Brugler, our new draft show. Kind of new, right? Dane's had a draft show before, but we're really launching it because we just think this is the perfect version of how to unleash Dane on all of you. Him and Dave have worked together in the past. Dave is a huge college football fan, and we are pumped about what this version of Dane's draft show is going to be. Obviously, the beast comes your guys' way every single April.

1:26:21Robert Mays: This is how the beast gets built. All the work that Dana's been doing over the course of the season, you guys are going to get a front row view of it. Very excited about having that be part of our plans. Hope you guys are as well. So be on the lookout for that. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

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