TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Bengals, Colts and Packers beat writers

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2:06Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. It is our next Beat Writer Mailbag coming to The Athletic Football Show feed. God, I've enjoyed doing these and seeing everybody on the road. It's been really, really fun. This week, had stops in Cincinnati, Indianapolis, and Green Bay, chatting with our Bengals writer, Paul DeAndre Jr., our Colts writer, James Boyd, and our Packers writer, Matt Schneidman. Just a heads up, get some interesting background noise on a couple of these. The charm of doing these on the road, on the sidelines sometimes, you're dealing with a lot of unsettled factors. So please bear with us on some of that.

2:40Robert Mays: The audio quality is fine. It's just we're going to have a little bit of stuff going on in the background. There was a tour that walked into the Green Bay Packers visiting locker room when Matt and I were recording in there. So the joys of podcast recording on the road for the athletic football show, but really enjoy the conversations with all three of these guys. Let's get to them right now.

3:03Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Bengals writer here at the athletic Paul Daner jr. Paul, how you doing, man? What's up? Good to see you here. Great to see you. It's good. It's good to be here. I'm happy to be in Cincinnati. Always enjoy my visit here. I feel like I've come. This has been part of the trip every year for a very long time. Being as close as we're on the way for you every time. There's nowhere you can go that we aren't on your way. It's very true. If you're coming back from the East Coast, it's on the way. It's really close to Indianapolis. And so that's typically the ones I pair together is the Indy Cincinnati swing, which is kind of going to be like that this time.

3:35Robert Mays: Excited to be here because there are a lot of things I want to ask you about. I feel we can talk about the Trey Henderson stuff at the end. You and I have talked about this so much that I'm not. I'm not allowed to talk about Trey Henderson if I don't do a deep sigh first of exhaustion. but I'm happy to talk about it. Let's talk about it at the end because I'm actually more interested in some of the other stuff than I am in that just because we've hit it so many times this offseason. Let's start with the offensive side of the ball. I feel like this is a team where it's kind of harder to come up with questions, curiosities, unanswered elements of who this team is supposed to be on offense.

4:06Robert Mays: So as you're thinking about last year's version of the Bengals, that was a top five offense by virtually any measure, incredibly productive throwing the ball. where are the areas you're most interested in and how they can potentially take another small step heading into this year you know for everything that they were last year they didn't run the ball as efficient as you would think of a top five offense i mean they were okay and then when chase brown took over they got a little more juice but even chase brown who when he took over the job the second half of the season and he was fifth in the league in yards from scrimmage over that span was only 4.2 yards per carry, which for a dynamic back, like he turned out to be, was kind of like what happened here.

4:47Well, so they now, Frank Pollock is no longer here. He was not just offensive line coach. He was run game coordinator. Dan Pitcher's in year two. He has come in with a lot of smart people on his staff, and they all kind of gather around the table and said, let's talk about this. Let's talk about tinkering with this. How can we build? last year, if you remember this time, it was Zach Moss's game with Chase Brown and maybe a 50 full figure out what that is, right? I was always a Chase Brown believer. I want that written in pen. Well, you're not alone in this building. I can tell you that many people were saying that, but the bottom line is though, they didn't build that run game for Chase Brown's skillset.

5:28They went in and started from scratch a little bit and said, here's what we did. let's twist it all to fit more what chase brown is what do you think that looks like i think it's more diverse i think there's you know you're gonna get the downhill shotgun stuff but i think they can do longer runs because he can get there faster he can hit the hole quicker you can bring back some of the wide zone stuff if you want to but i just think they can do things that take a little bit more time you saw in their preseason game against philly they run a little toss to the outside and he cuts it up behind the guard for a nice gain.

6:05And it's not that they weren't doing that type of stuff, but I do think those are the types of things that before their offensive line, you know, bigger, slower, they didn't want to have elephants on parade out there. And so it was a little bit now I think with him, they feel like there's a possibility to scheme up ways that they can have a little bit more of a dynamic running game based specifically around

6:29Robert Mays: I think that makes a lot of sense. And then we look at the personnel up front and that becomes a big question as well. No doubt. I think that there were stretches to me. I think this has been painted from the time Joe Burrow got here as the line was always awful. And I think there were stretches where there was confidence, like when Alex Kappa was playing at a decent level. And last year, it really fell off. I think both guard spots, you were getting really poor play. The right tackle was in and out of the lineup. The left tackle was banged up a little bit. But as we look at that group this year, Dylan Fairchild played his first preseason game a couple days ago at left guard.

7:01Robert Mays: Showed out pretty well. There's a rotation at right guard. How do you think that group shakes out? And what do you think the correct expectations are for that group? I'm glad you talked about the guard play last year because it's like you're changing it out. And, yes, there's questions there. It's hard to be as bad as you were last year. Like Kappa fell off the shelf. Cordell Volson got benched. And if it weren't for other injuries, he probably would have been out sooner. You know, it was so bad in those spots and they still were able to be what they were. But it was about so much about Joe Burrow creation.

7:36And he got so good at playmaking, which was his kind of thing that he charged himself with last year. And you saw a lot of that in the way their offense was creating dynamic plays off script so often. But, you know, and if you ask Dan Pitcher about this, he'll tell you this specifically. He stays up all day, all night, thinking about how to continue to be that dynamic, but not have Burrow have to do it like that as much. And that kind of comes back to guard play. And they can scheme things up. There are things they figured out last year in the way that they are to marry up the run game a little bit better with a little more play action type stuff.

8:13Movement on the line to kind of throw rushers off the set. They can do that stuff to scheme it up a little bit. But inevitably, they're in empty so often. They're in just five-man protection so often. It's going to be about just winning a little bit more often up there at those guard spots. I think there's very much reason to believe Amarius Mims can be a real dude. He showed that last year. The metrics don't give him enough credit for how good he probably actually was. I think he can be a real guy. Orlando Brown, before his injury last year, was playing like a real guy. Ted Karras is fine at center.

8:47those guard spots what fairchild does what the patrick ford combination turns out to look like are probably going to determine the stability and their ability to be dynamic without burrow having

8:58Robert Mays: to do something magical every week what does the right guard situation look like right now is there any sort of reaction to that it's kind of like who cares yeah it's not great i mean it's it's what it is it's guys that probably shouldn't be starting they're like that you like them as your six yeah are who they are. Lucas Patrick and Cody Ford, are you like them as your six, but one of them is going to start. Okay. Unless they go do something, which they've needed to go do something for four months at right guard. It's been the most frustrating part of their off season to me, because I think a lot of people would believe that I'm looking at the defense and lack of aggressiveness and spending in free agency there.

9:32Robert Mays: It's actually the right guard spot where I was like, there were guys like there weren't great answers, but like there were the the Bectons and the Zeitlers. And there were players available at that spot if you wanted to spend a little money and they didn't do that. And now I'm sitting there looking at that one position on offense being like, if this was even passable, I would feel so good about the upside of this group overall. Yeah. And it's hard to say that too. And you like Dylan Fairchild at left guard, but when you also have a rookie on the other side, it makes it feel best about. Well, that's the problem.

10:06If you had Dylan Fairchild in a battle with Cody Ford and Lucas Patrick as three of them fighting it out, and you're like, man, Fairchild really rose up, that's great. And you have something solid on the other side or whatever. You feel so much better about it. And it's not just that, though. It is the depth behind it. And I know that you go around however many camps you've been to. I bet all of them are like, man, our offensive line depth. It's this time of year you hear it. But I don't know what's happening behind those two tackles. And they both had injuries last year. Marius Mims is kind of part of his scouting report is injuries and not getting able to stay on the field.

10:38And Cody Ford kicking out to play tackle in a pinch that they really envision him at all. But that might be their best option right now.

10:48Robert Mays: That's like a 2021 idea. Yes. They don't have that. So you not only do you have the issue at right guard of you're just hoping that one of them, I mean, you know what those guys are, you know what you're probably going to get there. You're going to get some, like, you hope somewhere between the 40th and 50th best guard in the league is probably a good scenario there. And then you have hoping that Orlando Brown and Amari Spins don't get hurt because then you start really seeing a significant appreciation. Neither of those really got addressed. And to me, when I think about this team, and I know we'll talk a lot about the defense and the concern there, that stands out to me.

11:24Robert Mays: I think it should because they need the offense to be a hyper elite unit. If in order for this to all come together, this can't be the eighth or ninth best offense in the league. And when you think about variance, offensive line depth is a huge part of that. So it's absolutely worth mentioning. And it was bad last year. So it's like they can be what they were last year with a bad offense line. Burrow can do that with the weapons and the continuity they have, the ability to scheme it up and make it make it a little easier on their offensive linemen. That's going to be a big part of it working better.

11:52Like that's part of it. But it just feels like, God, you just needed a little more aggressive on the offensive line, and you would have felt a little bit better about it.

12:00Robert Mays: I've always appreciated some of the subtle tweaks this offensive staff has made from year to year. It's not big. It's not flashy. It never will be because of what the quarterback wants to do. And I think that's led to this group not getting enough credit for how they've tinkered consistently. And last year, to me, it was all the 12 personnel that they were using and just some of the wrinkles in the run game. So as you think about the pass catching group overall, the way they use Gisicki is kind of a slot receiver last year. Where do you think those wrinkles are coming this year? And who are maybe some of the guys we're not thinking enough about at those pass catching spots that are going to be involved in this?

12:33Well, they won't be involved as much in the way that you're thinking. And Noah Fant's kind of a little bit of a wild card. I'm really curious how that's supposed to work.

12:41Robert Mays: I get it. I get seeking out that skill set, but I'm just curious how that fits with what they got from Gisicki last year. Well, I think they view him as more of like an upgrade from Tanner Hudson, if you will. Sure. Because if Kosicki is essentially not a tight end, like I don't even – I honestly am hesitant to even put him in the tight end room when I make the 53 thing that you're supposed to do. I'm like, he is a receiver. That's how they use him. It's the right way to think about it. He's kind of their other receiver. So when you think of the tight end room, I almost think of Noah Fant and Drew Sample as your guys that are in there where Fant can be the guy that can catch the ball and be good after the catch.

13:17He's so good at that, catching it short of the sticks and finding a way to get the first down. That's how they use tight ends around here. That's how they've made every single tight end, except for Irv Smith, come in here and work. Every single one of them have come in here and work and gotten paid because of it, because the system with Burroughs processing sets up for that to happen.

13:34Robert Mays: It's so true. If you're trying to get paid a tight end, it is the exact right business. It's why no offense here. It's why he's here. Because he's got a one-year deal, and every single tight end that comes in here puts up great numbers and looks great. and because the system fits them perfectly to whatever they need them to be. So that is an interesting wild card. We'll see how that plays out. I mean, Gesicki is going to be the guy who in the, quote, tight end room, it puts up the most numbers. But this gives them a little bit more of he's not the Eric Hall skill set, which people probably listening to this might not know.

14:04I mean, they changed their offense last year because Eric Hall, the rookie, was so good. Well, I was going to ask you, is there a timeline on him getting back? He's not coming back this year. That's brutal. Yeah. So he had to essentially have two ACL surgeries to get it back.

14:17Robert Mays: I didn't realize it was that bad. I should probably have known that. That ruins my day. Yeah. So he's out this year. There's a hope that it's not a career ender. I mean, when you have to have the ACL repaired twice just to get back, you know what that means. But they're hoping that by 26, he could come back and be a player. But I think that was the chance they took when they drafted him. But it was a chance that you take in the fourth round because Because he was truly a rookie that came in and made them change the way they were doing their offense. Because he was so dynamic as a tight end. And they were just starting to get him going.

14:50So my point in that is Fant is not Eric Hall as a blocker in any way. But it's enough of it that you can do some of the stuff that you were doing with Eric Hall probably with him. And get a little bit more into the two tight end stuff. which when you have two real tight ends out there and you can use them to either go out or you can even have a double team tight end, when it's T and Jamar, it's different. Teams are like, oh, do I have enough out in the route? Well, you do when it's T and Jamar. And so if you have two tight ends and you can find ways, I think they really felt like they opened something up with that last year and they're hoping to find a little bit more of that.

15:26Robert Mays: I think there are some teams that they hesitate to put one more body in protection because they're worried about how many guys are getting out into routes. But this team, I think, did a good job of every once in a while, we're going to use the tight end and protection because we feel so good about the receivers. They would use it to take shots. So last year, they did it a bunch. Play action, two tight ends, keep both tight ends in because they're accounted for by the DBs just by the nature of obviously how they use them. And then it allows you to run T and Jamar deep and get shots out of it. And they hit on a bunch of them and use that with your play action, man.

15:57And they can I'd look for more of that this year from this team.

16:00Robert Mays: Let's talk about the defense. Shall we? Where do you want to start? What to you is the most interesting thing that you are still looking for as we're two and a half, three weeks into camp right now? I mean, who is going to rush the passer? I come back to the defensive line. It's so young. There's so much hope. There's so much potential. There's so much draft capital spent up there. and then the Hendrickson situation on top of it, let's just play this out under the assumption that Trey signs and he's in here. That's fine. I mean, they stunk last year with Trey Hendrickson being great because they had no other direction that pass rush was coming from.

16:42Shamar Stewart, I've never seen a player flip a narrative quicker. Shamar Stewart went from he's going to be a bust, what a joke, the contract holdout, fans had already turned on him until he came in and had a week of practice And everyone was like, whoa, this dude is doing every single practice he shows up. And so he just came from off the street and is out here being impactful. Maybe that's because of we haven't seen much of that coming from anybody in recent years. But there's hope there's a lot.

17:09Robert Mays: I mean, it is a jumble of talent and physical traits. Like there's no denying that. Yeah. Well, I mean, his floor just by pure physicality is pretty high. Yes. I think you see that you saw that from off the mat here in training camp. I think so. There's a lot of hope. Al Golden is versatility and ball disruption are the two things that he's talking about over and over and over again. Versatility is why they love Shamar Stewart so much. He's going to kick inside a lot. They feel like they can keep the same personnel on the field and move guys around and get different things. So you're going to see him kicking inside.

17:42You're going to see him rushing off the edge. You're going to see him everywhere. So you're going to have some of that. But then you have Miles Murphy, who is never quite coming to their own, but they can continue to bet on him. a big bet still they need him to be a guy in some capacity they brought back like joseph osai who finished hot at the end of last year but okay chris jenkins was a second round pick who never you know really kind of rushed the path really was what you wanted him to be last year but there's hope for a year two leap there then there's just a bunch of other names that maybe someone emerges nothing tj shelton um comes in excuse me tj slayton comes in and he he's a bill a big body to stop the run they felt like they were constantly not in pass rush situations last year because they couldn't stop the run which is true but they also when they were in those

18:34Robert Mays: situations weren't rushing the passer very well yeah i understand that thought process but the problem is i think jenkins is probably best as a run defender at this point slayton is best as run defender at this point. I think a lot of your interior players are best served to stop the run. BJ Hill. And BJ Hill, I think, is a more all-around than those two are. But it's... I feel like... I don't know how to look at it. Because this argument of, we have enough youth where we can take a step forward. Jenkins, the Murphy thing, fair or unfair, I'm probably... That's not something I'm talking myself into anymore.

19:04Robert Mays: But Jenkins, Stewart, we have enough... BJ Hill is a solid player. We feel like we have enough run stuffers now where we can get into more second and nines. I guess I can squint and see it. It's just one of those things that it's hard to believe in until you get more evidence that it's going to happen. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree. It felt like we came out of the free agency period looking around saying, how is there not a pass rusher here? How was there not... You go and everybody seemed to have some sort of a run defense tilt or they brought back B.J. Hill. And it's like, how was there not something you felt like you brought in to add juice to the pass rush?

19:42They just didn't do it. Maybe it pays off with some of these young guys. But I have a hard time getting past that before we get to the secondary. Because if you're comparing the two with each other, the secondary is so young.

19:58Robert Mays: But I think I can see it better. So what how are the roles supposed to shake out? Because obviously there's been so much turnover there where, all right, DJ Turner is playing inside a little bit and then he's not. And then Dax Hill is going to be a corner and then he gets hurt. So as you're sitting there right now, it's August 9th as we're having this conversation. Who in your mind are the best five Bengals defensive backs and where do they line up? Dax Hill is majoring in the slot right now. And I know there's probably some scouts that are like, it's about time, right? Saying like, why didn't you just play him there in the first place?

20:29but well, Mike Hill was here. Yeah. Right. No, no, I understand. No, I understand that, but I'm saying like that. Why'd you take him then? It's all fine. He's had a journey. He's been in a new place every year.

20:39Robert Mays: It's a new position every year. Yeah. You know, he was scapegoated in this year after the safety. And then last year he comes in, he actually played, he was their best corner last year before he got, got hurt, which is low bar, but it was, he was their best corner. And, and so I think they do feel like with Mike Hilton now gone, it's a chance for him to do something in there. That's probably where he ends up. Cam Taylor Britt is going to be your outside corner again. I can see that more than I can see anybody on the defensive line. I've seen long stretches of really good play from Cam Taylor Britt.

21:14He admits he got really in his head last year. His Luana Rumo relationship was problematic. Whatever was going on there, the quick benchings that happened multiple times. I think there's a feeling that he's in the right spot. Cam Taylor-Burn on the outside. The other one is a battle. I think DJ Turner, Josh Newton, who can also play a lot inside. They really like him, but he's a second-year guy. So maybe there's something there. There's other guys in the back of that room. And then Jordan Battle and Geno Stone are your safeties. That's your five. That's probably how it shakes out. There's going to be a lot of probably cross-training and versatility, again, as part of Al Golden's schematics here.

21:52But I think that's how it breaks down.

21:53Robert Mays: And then Demetrius Knight and Logan Wilson. Yes. The schematic stuff and this idea of Lou's defense potentially being a little bit too opaque and complicated for young players and struggle to bring them along. Understand that argument. Al Golden just coached in college for multiple years. He's been dealing with a lot of young players. Understand that argument. Are there certain ways you think they're going to deploy this group that give you reason to believe they can get better production from some of these young guys compared to what it was with Lou? I think there was a thought that they drafted press corners, man corners and played zone all the time.

22:26And that they weren't playing to their skill set. I think you're going to see more man. I think you're going to see a little bit more of cover that guy. Right. And that means following them around the field, into the slot, wherever. There was a play in mini camp where Cam Taylor Britt ends up in the slot on Mike Gesicki, steps in front of a burrow pass for an interception. Really, really nice play. And so I think they point to stuff like that and be like, we shouldn't be afraid for that stuff to happen. And let these guys do it. And I think you see a little bit more of that. And then I also think from a versatility standpoint, I think there's they feel like there's ways to, you know, they draft night and they feel like he can play regular linebacker.

23:12He can kick down to the edge and rush. They can get a little bit more three linebackers on the field, which might fit what they need to be from a run stopping or a schematic blitzing, more blitzing. if you're not getting enough one-on-ones, right? Or create one-on-ones with more blitzing, which Lou didn't do as much of. I think those are probably the two elements that stand out the most from what you're seeing.

23:32Robert Mays: What are realistic expectations for what this group can be? Can we go into this season and believe this team has a chance to have the 18th best defense in the league? Or do you think that's crazy? Yeah. It was really interesting, the first 10 practices of camp. There was so much confidence and bravado from that group. which is saying a lot considering how beat down and defeated they were at the end of last year and embarrassed and made fun of and all of that stuff. And I thought it was really impressive for them to even get to day one of camp with a group that was that confident in themselves and what they were doing and feeling like they had eliminated the gray area and really were just being able to go play fast and confident in what they were doing.

24:15And that showed, I mean, And Jordan Battle at one point makes a play and is getting it talking trash in Jamar Chase's face. And that was happening every practice from different corners are not afraid to get in anybody's face because they feel like they're coming from a place of confidence. So there for that was a really the storyline of the first 10 practices was this defense really feels like it's in a good place. Then they go out and they have their first preseason game and it looked just like last year. It was bad. But that group is going to need time. there's a there's a new coordinator a new system they're gonna have to work out some of the kinks i think it's fair for them to be to say that this group can be average i just think even if there's you're just looking at a you know moving to the mean here a little bit from from stuff that they have staying a little bit healthier and not having some of the issues from last year that that's certainly enough and this offense with the level it's supposed to play at and in this defense playing average football playing from ahead a little bit more often You can see that.

25:15You can see that that's a championship setup.

25:17Robert Mays: Defense, we would say this a million different times every fucking offseason. Defense is extremely volatile. And when you have so many young pieces and a new defensive coordinator, I at least want to be open to the idea that they can surprise me. And I think that's kind of where I am with this group. I'm open to the idea that they can surprise me. But it's just hard to have much confidence in that until you see a little bit. They're so young, Rob. Like there there's it'd be one thing if you had young players that they have had just a straight arrow up the whole time. There's none of those. No, they're all roller coasters.

25:48They're all roller coasters. Every single one of their young. They have they have nine. They have nine top 100 picks on rookie deals that are in their primary rotation. And they've all had ups and downs. Most of them have been in progress for many of them. And you'll hear it. You know, you're going to go around the building today and they're going to talk about, you know, So the staff, Anarumo and that staff didn't see eye to eye with a lot of these young players, and it made it toxic. And so there's a thought that these guys will now really be able to take off. It's a nice thought. We'll see.

26:21We'll all learn together because that's the bet. The bet is that these weren't bad picks. They can't all have been bad picks. Maybe they could have. But they shouldn't have all been bad picks. It's not like the league was out on all of these guys. and they just need to get into a place where they play fast and play confident in a system that they understand and let it come together. And I think you can see that. I get the argument. I don't think it's crazy. I don't know that they had another way to do it outside because they weren't going to go spend. We've been talking endlessly about everything they're spending on this year between T and Jamar and they're going to pay Hendrickson and they added a Gisicki and whatever.

26:57So they felt like they had to do it this way. Again, the process isn't terrible, but the guys have to work out at a much higher rate, and they're hoping that Al Golden is the perfect guy to do that. We'll see.

27:11Robert Mays: You just said with some, if not certainty, then confidence that Trey Anderson is going to get paid. Is that what you said right now? Yeah, I think it gets done. I mean, we've gotten to the point now that it doesn't do Trey any good. to fight the long fight here. This is his moment. He's going to be 31 in December. He's coming off of a runner-up for defensive player of the year. This is your moment to get the most you can out of this team. They're not trading you. You're here. I'm here for it. If he wants to fight it out to the last second, every Bengals contract negotiation, and I've seen lots of them, at least one a year, sometimes two or three, that go to this point.

27:56It goes this way. And it goes right down to the end. We'll be sitting here at Labor Day. And Trey will be like, I want to play. A couple of concessions will be made. And Trey will probably be out there week one. Maybe he misses the opener. Maybe. I can see that. But other than that, I just feel like this gets done. At the media luncheon before the season started, Mike Brown basically went on a tangent about Trey and he's emotional. We appreciate that about him. And these things always are a little bit harder with him. But the thing they've been doing this every year with Trey Hendrickson, he said, it always seems to get done.

28:33We always end up in a place where he plays and plays great. And I think they feel like that's the case. I think both sides probably know that deep down. And the Bengals are betting on the game of chicken because they'll go ahead and say, we're going to win this, but it'll end up in a place where he'll get paid and he'll play. and I bet he plays really good. I don't know how many more of those years he has in them, but I think he'll probably be pretty good this year

28:56Robert Mays: and I think he'll get paid and be happy. It says a lot about the Bengals' preseason stories every single year that a contract standoff with your best defensive player who has not yet started practicing is not really that disruptive. The offense is practicing. The quarterback is practicing. They're actually in a much better situation on the 10th day of August this year than they have been in multiple years. Maybe the least disruptive camp that they've had here in years. Well, with Burrow being healthy and not having any of those issues. It's an ACL or it's an appendix or it's a camp. It's always been something.

29:29But it's the Trey Hendrickson experience. I keep saying it, but this is what it is. Trey gets lots of sacks and he's unhappy about his contract. That's what it's like having Trey Hendrickson as a teammate. And that's kind of what's happening right now. But you really don't feel it. He came in here saying, I don't want to be a distraction. And he really hasn't been. I think he's doing a good job of trying to be the good soldier and for the betterment of the team, because I think he understands this is the betterment of my team. I'm going to be here. This is where I'm playing football. And so I want to try to do what's right by my teammates.

29:58Robert Mays: And he has done that so far. It's a fascinating team. The defense to me, again, one of the swing units of the entire season and won't be long. We'll have to wait much longer until we figure out how that's all going to come together. Paul Dan Jr. Great to chat with you, my friend. Great to see you. Yep. We'll do it again very soon. Appreciate it, Robert. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for? The one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded? I found it. And trust me, it's not what you expect. It's called Paka, spelled P-A-K-A. And if you're tired of hoodies that stretch out, pill, or feel heavy, this is the upgrade you've been waiting for.

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33:58Robert Mays: Joining us now from Westfield, Indiana, it is our Colts writer here at The Athletic James Boyd. James, great to see you, man.

34:05James Boyd: Great to see you as well. I saw you out in the parking lot putting the sunscreen on. You know, a hot one, but blessed to be here and blessed to have you here.

34:10Robert Mays: It is very hot today, and that is okay. We're doing this from right off of the practice field. There are fans rolling in. As you can hear, there's a little bit of music. This is how training camp podcasting goes. You do it where you can. and all the little accoutrement off to the side is part of the charm. So that's what we're leaning into today.

34:27James Boyd: Exactly. You know, they call it Colt City, so a lot of fans get out here pretty early. I told you earlier I ran the 40, ran a 4.78, so I think I could probably outrun a couple of guys on the Colts, but, you know, I won't get on the field and get hit by them anytime soon. We're recording this on Monday, August 11th.

34:41Robert Mays: It is going to run this weekend, so just take that into account when you were discussing the current state of things. And with this team especially, I feel like that time stamp is important because it feels like things are changing moment by moment, let alone day to day. As we sit here on August 11th and the aftermath of Anthony Richardson getting banged up in the preseason game, where is this quarterback competition and how do you see the next few weeks unfolding?

35:05James Boyd: That is the money question, Robert. I feel like if I had to give a slight edge to anyone, and it is slight either way, I would give it to probably Daniel Jones because of the injury to Anthony Richardson in the preseason opener because it's sort of that narrative of here we go again. You know, this guy's got banged up again. You can't trust him to stay healthy over a certain period of time. There was that time in the spring where he got shut down because of his shoulder. So that's the narrative that he's fighting right now is being injury prone. And quite frankly, there's a lot of evidence to back that up, unfortunately, for him.

35:33James Boyd: And then I think overall with QB play, neither quarterback has been, you know, setting the world on fire. They haven't had the greatest performances. It's been pretty even. So I'll give a slight lean to Daniel Jones. But even then, I don't think it's over by any means. And when Shane Steichen tells us he hasn't made a decision yet and he's waiting to make one, unlike some coaches who I think can be lying to you, I think that he's probably being a little bit honest because, you know, for Daniel, he's been safer than Anthony, but less explosive than Anthony. Obviously, gives you some explosiveness, but there's more up and down, you know, when it comes to his game.

36:04Robert Mays: Yeah, there's their drawbacks and benefits to either of the decisions that they make. I think you probably get a somewhat higher floor with Daniel Jones, even though we might be overstating that a little bit because the Giants offense was pretty bad for long stretches when he was there. And then obviously, Anthony Richardson, the benefits are the explosiveness, but also just what it means for this front office and what it means for this organization. If Daniel Jones wins this job outright and Anthony Richardson does not materialize for this team, I think there are a lot of hard questions that have to be answered.

36:30Robert Mays: So beyond who's going to win it, in your mind, what do you think is the best case scenario for the Colts, for Chris Ballard, for ownership, for everything? What is the best way this can work out independent of what we've seen so far?

36:44James Boyd: I look at it twofold. I think the best case scenario is obviously Anthony Richardson has an amazing year. He turns out to be a great quarterback and you have your answer finally. But within that, you just want to know, can he stay healthy? And I think that is the question that has limited everything else. Anthony's been limited to 15 games throughout his career. He's been 17 through his first two years due to injury. And a lot of that has hindered the evaluation process because even when we talk about him, it's always, well, should we be as hard on him because of this? Because he's only played this many games versus can he play that many games?

37:13James Boyd: I mean, the number one reason that Daniel Jones was brought in first and foremost, according to Chris Ballard, is because of the health. Not because of the inaccuracy, not because of the immaturity being benched two games last year because he wasn't preparing the right way. It's because you're not trusted to be available. And so I think the best case scenario from their standpoint is, A, Anthony hits. And he shows you not. When I say hit, he was 47.7 completion percentage last year. Can he be at 53 this year, 54? In progress. Turned over as much. Yes. Noted progress and also availability. Can he be available for your team?

37:43James Boyd: And then, you know, look at the flip side. I say that tongue in cheek because in my mind, Robert, I always think when does self-preservation kick in? Because the best case scenario for Chris Ballard and Shane Steichen might be whatever quarterback gets us to the playoffs. If that's Daniel Jones and he goes out and wins 10 games for you and it's not pretty, but it's effective. How does that help your job tenure? Because I think a lot of people are tied to the performance of Anthony Richardson. And if it's poor over 17 games, that could mean changes for not only the quarterback position, but everyone else around him.

38:12Robert Mays: We've said it a lot this offseason. The place where I've landed with all this is, how good would you have to be with Daniel Jones to justify this group coming back? Because I think that's just a hard plane to land. If you win 10 games with Daniel Jones, let's say you stumble into the wild card, does that mean Anthony Richardson is the quarterback in 2026? Because Daniel Jones is a free agent? Is the Anthony Richardson experiment over? If you make the playoffs and the Anthony Richardson experiment is over, is that enough to justify bringing everyone back? I just think there are so many different layers to this.

38:40Robert Mays: Maybe if you make the playoffs, it doesn't matter. That's all that matters. If you get there, we'll answer the rest of those questions later. Those are problems for a later date. I just think there are so many complicating factors to, again, what is the best way for this to end for the stakeholders involved?

38:55James Boyd: Absolutely. And I think the stakeholders have changed a little bit because of the passing of Jim Irsay in May. His daughters have now taken over the team. Carly Irsay, Gordon has been very supportive of this front office and Anthony Richardson. However, I think it's fair to say she might not have the same affinity towards Chris Ballard as her father did. I mean, Chris Ballard was being compared to Michael Jordan by Jim Irsay, and he hasn't won anything to obviously be compared to Michael Jordan. That's Jim Irsay that I knew and everyone around here loved. And so I think that's a big factor, certainly in that conversation.

39:25James Boyd: And then on top of that, you know, I look at it like if Chris Ballard has a say, this will not be the end for Anthony Richards. And he has said that repeatedly, like, we don't have to necessarily rush this. We'll have time to figure this thing out. And I think kind of like the Jordan Love's of the world where the Packers did kind of like that bridge contract where they didn't really like pay him a ton of money, but they didn't give up on him. They were kind of like, OK, let's get this tweener contract in there before he hit. And so I think for Jordan Love might have been his fourth or fifth year when he kind of took off.

39:53James Boyd: For Anthony, he's going into his third year. And so I think internally they're like, is that a plan or a path for Anthony Richardson in a way? But also, if Ballard is not here, that's no longer his decision to make, you know, on Anthony Richardson. So that's the biggest elephant in the room that you have to address because for Anthony, if he doesn't hit, others might not feel the same type of love because this is Chris Ballard's quarterback that he picked very high for the first time. And it hasn't worked out so far. And if it doesn't work out, do you think he's another chance? That's the question that everyone's asking around here.

40:25James Boyd: And honestly, most GMs do not get that opportunity. He was going into, I believe, ninth season. You know, only a couple of, I believe, you know, a couple of playoff berths, two playoff berths, one playoff win, zero AFC titles. That's a hard resume to continue to keep around.

40:38Robert Mays: Yeah, I think the Jordan Love point is a very astute one. And I do think that is like a best case scenario here. The problem is, I think it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Like Jordan Love didn't play for three years. Like that made it a lot easier because, you know, the one spot start against Kansas City. But that to me is not enough to degrade his confidence, to degrade the fan base's confidence in him. I just think there are enough differences with the circumstances that making that comparison and trying to sell that as a reason for optimism, it's just harder for me to buy.

41:07James Boyd: I know. And honestly, I had to look through a lot of different scenarios, Robert, to find something that I could possibly lay on. It's a good one, though, because I do think they would probably try to tell you that is a good way this can work out. But to your point about putting the two pays back in the tube, Chris Ballard has now been on record saying, yeah, we probably played him too soon. We probably should have sat him, but you can't go back and change that. And now that he has played, it hasn't looked pretty. It's been, you know, up and down. It's been, you know, a lot more down than up, I would think.

41:34James Boyd: And even within that, there has been some great moments. You know, the last year, the one on the road and played the Jets and Anthony had the best game of his career, you know, had some great moments running the ball, throwing the ball, had to come from behind victory, game winning drive, all of that. And you think, okay, maybe it's finally clicked and then he ends the year with you know back spasms hasn't played and it's erratic

41:53Robert Mays: again and then in the first preseason game he misses a protection he dislocates his pinky exactly it's just so hard to build momentum and of optimism where it's just like all right okay he's flashing training camp maybe he is winning this and then the first moment we see him in a not real game but in a game again that's what happens and it's like god damn six snaps and i

42:13James Boyd: was thinking the same thing watching the game like everybody else is like wow this cannot be happening again and the conundrum there Robert is that you want him to get more reps which is why you play him in the preseason you're trying to play him obviously a lot in these joint practices but then the downside is if you play him a lot if you've seen throughout his NFL tenure he gets hurt and so he misses that time again and so you I was wondering hearing him explain the play and the missed read is that just from a lack of reps and then on top of that okay if it is you miss small reps because you missed that read and you got hurt so this is unfortunate for anthony but i do wonder even for himself like mentally does he think his body can hold up over 17 games when you know again one after another you know we're in the spring and then one day stiking comes out oh yeah anthony's not throwing anymore he's been shut down what the pinky you know for a second there i thought it was broken i'm like oh it's broken this is a disaster fortunately for him it's only a little you know tweak they pop back in but even the narrative and just that little bug in your brain can I stay healthy is always there.

43:12Robert Mays: Yeah. It's hard not to have that takeaway when that's the first thing, the first exposure you guys watch them every day, but the first exposure we get to him again is that what's what makes this even a little bit more frustrating is that when you look at the surrounding pieces on this offense, there's a lot to get excited about. Yes. And we did supporting cast. We ranked them in the AFC earlier this summer. And my partner, Derek class, and I want to say he had the Colts at like fourth in the AFC based on all the things they have around him. I still have a lot of faith in what Shane Steichen is as a play caller and a designer.

43:42Robert Mays: The pass catchers, I think, are one of the more unheralded groups in the league because we haven't seen them in a situation where we'd notice how good they are. You got a couple flashes from Josh Downs when Joe Flacco played, but I think collectively, in an even normal set of circumstances, we'd realize how good the combination of Josh Downs, A.D. Mitchell, who I think is going to take a step forward this year, Alec Pierce and Michael Pittman are with Tyler Warren in the mix now. This line has been a strength of this team for a long time. You still have Jonathan Taylor, by the way, which I didn't mention.

44:11Robert Mays: This line has been a strength of this team for a long time. You're swapping out two component parts of that this year, but I think they're optimistic about Bordellini, and I think that the development plan they've shown with some of their mid-late-round drafted interior players over the last few years, whether it is a Will Frye, somebody like that, they deserve the benefit of the doubt. So you take all of that in totality, and it's like, if we get the 18th best quarterback in the league, we can be really, really good. And I think that's part of why this has been so frustrating, even outside of people who are rooting for Anthony Richardson to succeed.

44:43James Boyd: Yes, you're speaking to the soul of Colts fans right now. They're like, we're right there every year. And a bad quarterback is the reason why we haven't been able to get over the hump. And when you talk about the skill-based players they have on this roster, Tyler Warren, first and foremost, looked every bit as good as he was in college throughout training camp. And now at their first preseason game, you saw some of the stuff that he did against the Ravens. And, you know, I think that he's a guy who'll be better when the pads are on just because he loves physicality. He loves the guards for the catch.

45:08James Boyd: But he's going to be somebody that really flashes in seven on seven in May. Exactly. But I'll tell you what, though. What's impressed me is some of the finesse stuff. You know, I know he's a bruiser. I know he's physical. But if you just put in his vicinity, the ball control, the body control, I'm sorry, and the ability to go high point something, catch something off target. That is special. I think that that certainly will translate to the NFL. and then although the Colts don't have a true like dominant number one receiver I think they have very good receivers they have you know you know maybe the gap in between their number one number three receiver isn't as big as other teams and because of that a lot of these guys can still contribute Alec Pierce I think he's going to step forward with some of his route tree he's not just a deep guy although he can definitely do that Michael Pippen Jr.

45:48James Boyd: is kind of a possession catch receiver not going to while you with speed but he's a tough dude and not playing with a fracture back they did last year he should be better you know coming into this year but to me the key to that room on top of that is Aidy Mitchell. He has, in my opinion, the most talent of any wide receiver in that room because he is so dynamic with the speed, the agility, the ability to get open. But all of those things I think are, you know, factors that can help the quarterback, but the quarterback has to help himself. And for Anthony, that means making the layups. Daniel Jones has proven he can do that.

46:16James Boyd: Perhaps he can, you know, be a little more, less gun shy because there has been times where you're wondering like, does he can't throw it down the field? Will he throw it down the field? but for Anthony, it's kind of like, just make the layups. Just do the dinks and dunks to keep us alive on drives because last year, again, 47.7 completion percentage. You can't survive that in the NFL.

46:35Robert Mays: Their issue, if you can call it an issue, is figuring out how to use them all. I truly think that's the biggest problem, and that's not a problem. There are some teams where you only have three or four receivers. The Falcons don't have to worry about deployments, right? We got three guys. We're going to be at 11 personnel 80 % of the time. We know how this is going to go. I think that's the big question with the Colts is, in what sort of sets is it Alec and Michael? In what sort of sets, when we're in 11, okay, we know Josh is going to be the guy in the slot, but should we use AD in there a little bit more?

47:05Robert Mays: That's stuff to sort through, but those are champagne problems. That's a luxury when you have that many good pass catchers. The line, to me, is the biggest question. It's how much can we get from Bordellini and from Gonsalves here as you replace those two guys that have got to pay a lot of money in free agency. If they come in and there are going to be some growing pains, no doubt. But if they can be kind of backstop type players where they're giving you a certain floor combined with the three players you feel really good about in the line. Braden Smith kind of getting back to his level. It's hard not to get excited about all the component parts of the offense.

47:39James Boyd: Absolutely. I think a lot of it has to come down to, one, they had this plan in place because Ryan Kelly was not going to be the long-term answer at center anymore, at least, because we knew that going into last year. And he's a very, I think, transparent player. So when we knew going into it, okay, the contract negotiations aren't going that great, this might be his last year here. So they were preparing for Bordelina to take over. Matt Gonzales is a little bit different because he came in as a tackle, played all tackles last year, at least in his eight starts. and now he's at right guard. And so the good news there is they learned from Quentin Nelson, who is probably a future Hall of Famer at this point, learned everything they can from that guy.

48:18James Boyd: And so that is a big question, but I think that Tony Sperano Jr. has shown that he can develop his players. They deserve the benefit of the doubt for sure. And again, they will certainly have the opportunity to get some reps in because I think beyond getting some reps in this year, both of them got reps last year. And also they're having a whole off-season program to be able to utilize and learn, whereas last year was kind of like okay can you just get in there and play and hold us you know keep us afloat this year whole offseason program to help you get ready for the season this is hard

48:47Robert Mays: to do but i'm curious if you were trying to stack up the pass catchers in terms of like their importance to the offense and the size of the roles they would have those four receivers how would you try to do that oh that's a great question that's a great question this might

49:01James Boyd: sound crazy but i might put tyler warren number one wow okay this is why i like that this is why The Colts last year had the second fewest receiving yards of any tight end group in the league outside of the Rams. And so, I mean, dating back to Jack Doyle, they haven't had a guy who can consistently get you yardage over the middle. And when you think of, OK, I have a young quarterback who isn't always that accurate. What can I do to help him? Get the ball over the middle. Daniel Jones. I love to, you know, check it down or I love to maybe not take the biggest risk. Give it to the big guy over the middle.

49:32James Boyd: And so I think that he might be the biggest key to unlocking the rest of these other guys. because for so long, defenses haven't had to account for a tight end. I mean, the only time we've seen a lot of big plays out of tight ends is the occasional Molly Cox kind of gadget play or trick play where he'll catch one and kind of fool the defense. And it's because they haven't done this play in four weeks. And so they're due for one. But game to game, I might put Tyler Warren number one. And then as far as the other four go, as far as the pass catching group, Josh Downs, I think that he's a big part of that because his ability to separate, get open, give you the easier slot throws, he's huge.

50:10James Boyd: I'll put him number two.

50:11Robert Mays: I legitimately think he's one of the best 15 receivers in the league. We just don't know it because he's in the weirdest situation I can imagine for a really good receiver.

50:19James Boyd: But, I mean, he can get open in a phone booth. And then from an overall, I think just gravity standpoint, I'd probably go Alec Pierce and then round it out with Pittman. I know people are probably asking me, like, where's A.D. Mitchell? He's very tantalizing. He's very enticing. But I have to see something on Sunday before I say he's going to be a big part of this offense. I know. Because I just don't know yet. Now, I will say, out here in camp, he's been cooking. I would say he's arguably been the best wide receiver of this group. But I got to see it on Sundays. And I also got to see him take a hit.

50:48James Boyd: Last year, the big knock on A.D. Mitchell was, you're my alligator arm when you're going across the middle, and you're going to take a lick. Can you do all those things? Separate, get open, show off your speed, all these things, but also play football and take a big hit.

50:59Robert Mays: It's a great point because I think there was a ton of excitement around him at this point. And last year, when you talk to people here, just what he looked like in practice. And so that's one of those where it's like a boy who cried wolf situation. I'm going to wait and see. I'm going to wait and see with him. But I do. I think the talent is undeniable. And again, because they don't have that true number one guy, I do think there's opportunity to be had. I just think it's a really murky room. And I think they feel that way about how it's all going to shake out right now. Absolutely. I feel good about so many elements of the offense.

51:29Robert Mays: And I think that there is a floor there if they can get even reliable quarterback play. The defense, though, I think is the big wild card on this team. Not in a bad way. Because I do think there's a path for them to be pretty good on that side of the ball. And in my mind, that starts with the front. The front is incredibly deep. They have four edge rushers now after drafting JT in the second round from Ohio State. And then in the interior, you still have Buckner. You still have Grover Stewart. I think that Tommy from Northwestern is apparently taking a step forward. Like that group, I think, can be the engine of a pretty good defense that's more layered, diverse and a little bit more schematically difficult to play against than what it's looked like over the last couple of years.

52:08Robert Mays: What have you seen from that group so far with Lou to kind of give you a sense of what we might see when the season starts?

52:14James Boyd: Yeah, I would say the biggest thing is variety. You know, with Gus Bradley, it was a lot of zone coverage, a lot of, you know, conceding throws underneath. and you know I feel like a lot of quarterbacks who weren't even great quarterbacks were getting rhythm because they knew well I'm gonna have this five yard out every single time against Gus Bradley because he doesn't want to get up and impress us or play man-to-man as often as perhaps Luan Arumo would and then on top of that I think that there has been a concerted effort to upgrade on the back end as well you know where you feel like you can maybe trust your guys to hold up man coverage a bit more Trevarius Ward obviously is a huge upgrade compared to the cornerbacks you had last year and then on top of that you had Cam Bynum on the back end as well at free safety he's someone I think that can be a ball hog and kind of disrupt things.

52:54James Boyd: And so, yes, it starts up front with that front. I think they're really banking on Lyatulotu having a big year. Absolutely. I think that he's poised to perhaps take that leap because Diol Dengbo left. And now it's like, dude, you're our number one, you know, first round pick last year. You're supposed to be a player. And he's shown that throughout camp so far. He has been very disruptive. But again, can you do it on Sundays, in pads, and things like that? So the front, I think, is, you know, pretty familiar with the fan base, you know, and even around the league. but that back end is where things have kind of changed.

53:23James Boyd: But even then, Robert, they're banged up right now. You know, they lost Justin Wally. They were really high on this rookie coming out of Minnesota. He was just with the ones. He was a third-round pick, but he was a locked-in starter. And what's crazy is it started like that. He didn't, like, trend up to make it like that. We came out of the spring thinking, okay, he could probably pretend for a starting spot. And then fall camp started. I'm sorry, yeah, summer camp started. And the guy was out here with the ones, no questions asked. And then if it wasn't with the outside, you know, on the outside, you know, opposite of Treyus Ward, it was on the inside you know because kenny moore needed a rest day he's on the inside so they were really high on him lost him for the season due to an acl and then right now jaylen jones and juju brinch two guys who were draft picks a couple years ago they're out with hamstrings no timeline in their return so one of their deepest rooms right now is one of the most depleted because of the injuries but if they can get back on track from a health standpoint i still think that this the secondary is much more upgraded from last year and also there should be more variety and i think that's the biggest thing that they need because you know although Gus Bradley obviously had some great defenses in his past here in Indianapolis they never finished that great as far as you know points allowed I believe the best they ever finished maybe was 24th in the league in points allowed over his three years that's obviously not going to cut it if you're trying to get into the playoffs yeah and I also think that the guys they

54:32Robert Mays: have on the back end now spending on Camp Bynum spending on Traverius Ward that allows you to be more diverse exactly yes what Traverius Ward is a man corner that is like I mean they played a ton of zone in San Francisco obviously but he is an in your face in the hip pocket type of corner and And so I think that allows them to explore some different things schematically. And then can't bind them. In Minnesota, they ran everything. It's one of the craziest, most layered, complex defenses in football. And I think his ability to be at the center of that could be a driving force for the Colts to be that sort of defense.

55:02Robert Mays: I think the spots that I just keep coming back to, without Wally, what does that second cornerback spot look like? And then for the first time in forever, off-ball linebacker is a real question for this team. It always seems like they had two guys waiting in the wings, whether it was Zaire Franklin or EJ Speed, like always. That now feels like a relative weakness and concern in a way that it has not in a long time for this team.

55:24James Boyd: Absolutely. I mean, you look at just the linebackers they've had, you know, Shaquille Darius Leonard. He was somebody who was special for this franchise and has the back injuries in the NFL. He was one of the best, you know, off-ball linebackers you've probably seen when he was at his peak. and then you look at Bobby Okereke. He got paid. And I understand it. You can't pay everybody. He went on to the Giants. So now, Zaire Franklin's the only proven starter in that room. When I say proven starter, he's probably the only guy in that room who started over 10 games in a career on defense. And so right now, I'll probably give the slight edge to Joe Bocci, perhaps that weak side linebacker spot, off-ball linebacker spot because of the relationship with Luana Rumo and also how he's been flying around.

56:05James Boyd: He's looked pretty good in coverage. But beyond that, I mean, you're talking about guys who, you know, the listeners probably have no clue who they are. Jalen Carlisle, the second-year linebacker out of Mizzou. I feel pretty good about what I can do for the most part,

56:18Robert Mays: knowing what the depth charts look like. I walked into this building today having absolutely no idea who the other off-ball linebacker for the Colts is. I'm willing to admit that.

56:25James Boyd: No, you're fine. I mean, Cameron McGrone, local product, went to Lawrence Central, around here, Indianapolis native. But those are guys who, again, I think that they're fine if you need it for a game or two, but to rely on them for 17 weeks, I don't know if I would do that. 17 games, I don't know if I would do that. So this is a group that we have definitely hammered. We were able to ask Chris Ballard about this before the season, and in his Chris Ballard manner, he said, well, you guys didn't know who Zyre Franklin was anyways. You guys didn't know who Shaquille Leonard was anyways. And so to a certain extent, I do want to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's drafted linebacker very well.

56:59Robert Mays: Linebacker and offensive line

57:00James Boyd: are the two areas where you're like,

57:01Robert Mays: okay, I trust you.

57:03James Boyd: I'm a little worried about it.

57:04Robert Mays: But I have to trust you at this point.

57:07James Boyd: But at the same time, last year, he told us to trust the secondary with the cornerbacks. Oh, they're unproven. They'll get out there. They'll bounce back. And then they got there and got embarrassed pretty quickly. So for his sake, it cannot be the same sort of conversation because, again, beyond the quarterback situation, that's another knock against you as far as your tenure here in Indianapolis.

57:24Robert Mays: It's a fascinating team. I just think there's so much variance here because I think that if the quarterback, again, if you can get just like average or slightly below average quarterback play and Lou can really click into something with the defense and the front can be the driving force of what that defense looks like, this could be a playoff team. I absolutely believe that. But if those weaknesses on defense become really, really glaring, where it's not just, and we're plugging holes, but these are true demonstrable problems where teams are picking on them over and over again, and then the quarterback thing doesn't get figured out.

57:54Robert Mays: You get the 31st or 32nd best quarterback in the league. I could see this being a seven-win team and everybody getting fired. I just think there's so many different ways this could go. And unfortunately, it is dependent on the most important position in professional football.

58:07James Boyd: Absolutely. I mean, I'm looking at the QB tiers earlier today from our guy Mike Sando. And I believe he had Daniel Jones at 30th. And then I want to say Anthony Ertzis was 32nd, according to the execs that he polled. And that's the respect or lack thereof that they've earned, considering their resumes and the struggles they had last year in particular. So we'll see how the chips fall. But I certainly think if you're looking for storylines, drama, I feel like since I've joined the Colts beat in 2022, there's been no lack of that in that department. So one thing I love about covering the NFL, I used to cover the NBA, is that every game, every week is like do or die.

58:40James Boyd: It matters so much. The sky is falling. You know, everything's great. Every preseason game. I know. And so I enjoy the high stakes because of that, because either way, I do think, you know, if you make the playoffs, it's interesting. If you don't make the playoffs, it's even more interesting because I do think heads could roll. And at this point, you know, what are you holding on to if you, again, go a fifth year, their fourth straight year without making the playoffs was last year, a fifth straight year. It's hard to say that anybody anywhere will be back after something like that.

59:06Robert Mays: And then the layer of new ownership and just what their expectations are and not being a wrench thrown into it. So much intrigue with where this team is.

59:13James Boyd: Real quick, Carly Ursae Gordon, the eldest daughter of Jim Ursae, who is now the principal owner of the Colts. She'll be on more of the football relations side. She means business. Yes. She came out in her first press conference after her father's death and said, you know, Shane and Chris, no, this isn't good enough. And I thought it was, you know, a bit telling that she was so demonstrative in it. Now, she did support them, but I didn't get the sense that like, oh, this is a gap year to grieve or to mourn or to feel sorry for ourselves. She said, I want to win. Not only do I want to win, I want to be the best.

59:41James Boyd: And they have not been the best or winning as of late. And that has to change sometime soon. Otherwise, she can make some changes.

59:46Robert Mays: I'll tell you this. Anybody I've ever talked to that has interacted with her in a professional capacity, coaches who interviewed for this job when Shane Steichen got it, she was heavily involved in that process. Just everything about how involved she is, not in a bad way in the football operation. She's present. She's curious. She's asked a ton of questions. She means business. This is something she's taking very seriously, and I think she has really done the work over the last few years to prepare herself for this opportunity. And so this isn't going to be a, eh, we're all just getting our feet wet here sort of year for the Indianapolis Colts.

1:00:20Robert Mays: And I think that's really important to keep in mind. It's a great thing you said that.

1:00:23James Boyd: No, she's been here for obviously her entire life. She grew up in the franchise, and so people get a kick out of her being on the sideline. But beyond that, it's not just being on the sideline. It's not just, you know, wearing the cool outfits and seeing her out. Oh, it's inclusive. A woman on the side. No, she knows football. And talking of, you know, current players, former players, current coaches, former coaches. She's someone who's very, you know, meticulous, very detailed and obviously very goal oriented. And she was saying, you know, I don't want this team that my father passed down to me and my sisters to be a team that's looked at as, you know, kind of a pushover.

1:00:55James Boyd: We want to win. We want to be the best. And so in a division that I believe has been, you know, if not wide open, there's been legitimate opportunity to win it the last few years. Why wouldn't she feel that way, regardless of who the quarterback is, who the coach is? She just figures, you know, we're not in a division where, you know, Patrick Mahomes is on the other side or Tom Brady is, you know, running through the division like he did with the Patriots. We have an opportunity to do something special here or at least, you know, be a respectable team. And they haven't been that. I mean, I'm hearing Jim Irsay, the late Jim Irsay, tell me they were in the upper quartile of the upper quartile.

1:01:25James Boyd: So it's been a long time since then. It's something he has to give.

1:01:28Robert Mays: Yeah, it's a great bit of context to keep in mind as we think about this team expectations and how this all unfolds. James Boyd, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Great to chat with you. Great to see you. We'll do it again soon. Appreciate it, man. With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5 % cash back at different categories each quarter on up to$1 ,500 in purchases. That's 5 % cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to Discover. Terms apply. See discover.com slash five for details.

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1:03:14Robert Mays: Joining us now from the Visitor's Locker Room at Lambeau Field, which we have done this before. We have. It was like two years ago we did this here. The second annual athletic football show Packers Report from the Visitor's Locker Room at Lambeau Field. It is our Packers writer here at the Athletic Match. How are you doing, man? I'm good. You're seven on the Packers for me, for us. I'm getting old. I just turned 30. I'm getting old. Don't talk to me about that. I turned 38 two weeks from today, so I still got plenty. of plenty of a lead on you. Let's dig into this today. It was an interesting day at Packers practice today.

1:03:49Robert Mays: Jordan Love, the news about his thumb surgery came out this morning. It was as I was driving up here this morning. You're like firing off breaking news before practice even gets started. It sounds and just for context, we're recording this on Tuesday to 12th. This will run on Saturday. So there's so people know that he might be back practicing by the time. He might. He might. I'm kidding. Well, he's supposed and that's kind of why I wanted to lay this out. It sounds like they anticipate him being back practicing as soon as next week. This doesn't seem like a super serious problem based on the way that Brian Kunkoots framed it earlier this morning.

1:04:21Right. We'll go back to yesterday. Monday, we saw after practice, Jordan Love talking with Brian Engel and Nate Weir, who are the Packers' top two trainers, and Matt LaFleur after practice, who's flexing his left thumb. Left thumb, not his right thumb, not his throwing thumb a lot of thumb issues non-throwing quarterback recent history yeah well aaron rogers was a broken throwing thumb uh this one was suffered on saturday night against the jets in the preseason opener on the second drive i think it was third and four uh on the jets 49 yard line or something and love kind of saw a lane to scramble up the middle kind of retreated because he was like, it's a preseason game, take it easy.

1:05:07Hit his hand on the helmet of one of the Jets' defensive linemen, took a sack, and the starters didn't play again, so we didn't see him there. He practiced yesterday. So again, we're recording this Tuesday, practiced Monday. Was able to do everything, but I did notice on handoffs to his right side, where you would normally hand off with your front hand, the left hand, he was handing off with the hand closest to the running back, his right hand. So it looked awkward. I didn't think anything of it. I just thought it was like he maybe fumbled the ball. After practice, he's flexing his thumb. He had it taped up.

1:05:39And then this morning, Brian Gutekunst, who meets with us once a week during training camp, walks to the podium and says, yeah, Jordan had a little procedure on his thumb. He said it was a ligament issue. Jeff Howe, for us, has since reported that it's a torn ligament in Jordan's left thumb. But most importantly, Brian Gutekunst said he will be ready for week one. Brian Gutekunst doesn't really like talking absolutes. He has mastered the art of saying a lot while not saying anything at the podium, which it's not shame on him. That's his job.

1:06:08Robert Mays: It's so true, though. He really does do a good job. Definitive as possible, saying Jordan Love will be ready for week one against the Lions here at Lambeau Field. So they only expect him to miss a week or so of practice. He wasn't present at practice today since he was getting the surgery. They expect him to join them in Indianapolis tomorrow. and then you know he was a the plan just lastly here the plan was for the starters to play against the Jets in week one they didn't have joint practice last week this week joint practice against the Colts on so if this comes out Saturday they will have had joint practice on Thursday against the Colts and then today is the preseason game the starters were not going to play in that But then next week, the Seahawks are here for joint practice.

1:06:54The plan was, LeFleur said, for starters to practice and play. But LeFleur said today it'll be highly unlikely that Love plays, even if he does return to practice. So bottom line, not a long-term concern. And look, Malik Willis won a couple games for these guys last year, but doesn't look like he's going to have to win another for them, at least now.

1:07:14Robert Mays: It sounds like Jordan Love, no contact for him, which for quarterbacks in practice would mean individual and then seven on seven. This team doesn't do seven on seven. So there aren't that many elements of practice he can even participate in. So I assume we just won't see much of him over the next couple of weeks. The context I understand from it is that he probably could have played with this throughout the entire season. But it was something that would continue to bother him over the course of the year. And because they had this window, they felt, let's get this done now. Make sure he feels as close to 100 % for as much of the season as he possibly can, as I understand.

1:07:44Yeah, and that seems to be a recurring theme here in Packers camp. Nate Hobbs, who made a bunch of noise the first week of camp, the guy they signed from the Raiders, who specializes at the nickel, but he'll play a lot of outside for these guys this year. They signed him to a four-year,$48 million deal in free agency. He's going to start at outside corner. He, I think it was a torn meniscus, and then ESPN reported that he basically could have played through but just wanted to get it cleaned up. So, he should be ready for week one. Hobbs, you know, he was talking to reporters last week or maybe it was the week before and he was sitting down at his locker and to demonstrate how good he felt.

1:08:26He stood up and was all smiles. But I saw him in the locker room today, still limping. He was dancing a little bit while standing on just his surgically repaired right knee. But he'll be out for a little bit. And then the other one is Xavier McKinney, who is a first team all pro. He's dealing with a calf injury. He told us last week that he will be ready to go for week one against the Lions. and that he's just happy they caught it when they did. It was kind of a lingering thing he had been playing through. So I don't think he's not undergoing any surgery, but they're just being precautious with him.

1:08:57So a couple important players where it's like, all right, let's nip this right now. If it was the regular season, I imagine that all three guys might still be playing, but I guess you never know.

1:09:10Robert Mays: But then you combine that with Jaden Reigns in a walking boot on the sidelines. today. Romeo Dobbs walks off gingerly, I guess is the way I would describe it after going down during a drill. They cut practice short by about 20 minutes today. I think part of that is because these things are starting to pile up a little bit. So even if there aren't that many lingering concerns that are going to push into the season, maybe aside from Jaden Reed, I think that this has started to pile up in a way that's a tiny bit concerning, even if most of these guys are going to be ready for week one. Yeah. And that's what I'm writing today is their top four wide receivers, at least returning wide receivers, are hurt right now.

1:09:43Christian Watson, he's running very, very fast on the sideline at practice. If anyone has ever attended a practice this summer, it looks like Christian Watson's ready to go. He tore his ACL week 18. Brian Gutekunst initially said at the combine that Watson would be back around the midseason point. And then this morning, Brian Gutekunst said Watson will likely start the season on PUP. And then after those four games are up he said it's going to take a lot of us to hold him back because he's going to be ready to go or wanting to play at least like you said jayden reed in a walking boot on his left foot that is a a foot injury uh obviously i don't know the timetable on him matt lafleur said he's hopeful reed is ready for week one it sounds like that's the goal whether or not that's possible it sounds like that's the goal yes and then don'tavian wicks has been battling a calf injury for a little bit.

1:10:35And then Dobbs went down today. And Dobbs was the guardian cap in practice. He, you know, had some nasty concussions last year. I think he had two. The one against the Eagles in the playoffs was bad. Like, he couldn't turn over on his own. Trainers had to turn him over by himself. It didn't look like a concussion today. It was just a small collision with Evan Williams on a deep incompletion. And Dobbs hit the ground hard. But it looked like trainers were playing with his back. And then as Dobbs was walking off, he was holding his lower back. He was in the locker room today and seemed to be walking fine, although he was walking slowly, respectfully declined to talk to reporters.

1:11:13Then one reporter asked him if he was good, and Dobbs said yes. So who knows what that means? But yeah, they are ravaged at the wide receiver position. Luckily for them, Matthew Goulton is very, very good, or has at least looked good throughout the first couple weeks of camp. The guy catches everything. And I tweeted that today. And literally two seconds later, he has his first real drop of camp. So that's on me.

1:11:36Robert Mays: When I think about this offense and what they've been the last couple of years and how they could potentially break through a little bit, they've been a good offense for the last two years. You look at the numbers and down to down, they've been explosive, volatile on third down last year. But it's a good offense. But we're still waiting for them to kind of kick down the door. And when I think about how that can happen, the quarterback is a huge part of that. We can talk about that. The other side of it is we have this collection of guys who are interesting and useful. Think about how many pass catchers we can go through for this team.

1:12:02Robert Mays: Matthew Golden, Romeo Dobbs, Jaden Reed, Tucker Craft, Luke Musgrave, Josh Jacobs, Marshawn Lloyd looked really good today. There are so many young, ascending, intriguing players to pick from. Who of those guys is really going to emerge as like on third down, this is who we can throw the ball to? And I think that kind of is the biggest question that needs to be answered for this team, even if we like a lot of the component pieces. I think the sure-handed gotta-have-it guy on third down, like Devontae Adams always was for Aaron Rodgers, I think that's Romeo Dobbs. He had his fair share of drops last year, but if you need seven yards or ten yards, I think you're going to Romeo Dobbs over the middle or on an out or something like that.

1:12:44But in the first preseason game, third and seven, Jordan Love hits Matthew Golden on a slant on Brandon Stevens. Third and six later in the drive, Golden runs a slant from the other side, draws in defensive pass interference on Sauce Gardner. Another first down. Could it be Matthew Golden? It could be. It certainly could be. I mean, Brian Gutekunst was talking this morning. He said, I'm paraphrasing here, Golden is one of those rookies who makes one or two plays every day that let you know this is going to be a guy who has a successful career in this league. And whether the entire wide receiver room was healthy or not, But Matthew Golden is going to be a guy that has a significant impact in week one.

1:13:26I understand and I've been victim of, you know, reading too much into performance in the first three weeks of camp and performance in shells. But, you know, just watching this camp, Matthew Golden is going to be a significant contributor for this team starting in week one. Forget all the wide receiver one talk and when he could become that, which I think he eventually will. But I think you have to rely on him. There's no bringing this guy along. Like, there's more urgency in Green Bay this year. It's not, OK, we have the youngest team. We're just happy to make the playoffs anymore. That's not going to fly anymore.

1:13:59It's not going to fly anymore. And that's not just because Aaron Rodgers won a Super Bowl in his third season starting. And there are some other parallels there. So last time the Packers had the 23rd pick in the draft was 2010. They won the Super Bowl the following season. They had the 23rd pick this year. Their record the season before they won the Super Bowl was 11-6. It was 11-6 last year. And it was Aaron Rodgers' third year starting. Now it's Jordan Love's third year starting. Jordan Love knows those comparisons. He's talked about them with us. But I don't think that's where the pressure is going to be.

1:14:29I think it's just you're in the third year. Your quarterback was about to say he's healthy now. But he had surgery this morning, so maybe not. And then the other thing I think, an added element to this, has nothing to do with players. But so Ed Policy is the new team president. Mark Murphy was forced into retirement because he had to retire when he turned 70 and he turned 70 last month. So Ed Policy is now in charge of Brian Gutekunst and Matt LaFleur. And both Gutekunst and LaFleur have two years left on their contracts. And, for example, Ryan Poles, I believe, got an extension with two years left on his contract.

1:15:06I understand that was to, you know, align him with Ben Johnson. But Ed Policy said he's not extending Gutekunst and LaFleur before this season, and he doesn't want them in contract years. So essentially, I don't think this is dramatic to say, Brian Gutekunst and Matt LaFleur will be extended or fired after this season. So I am of the belief that he's leaning toward extending both of them. and maybe he's already made that up in his mind, but he just wants to make them sweat a little bit in a year where they haven't been to the Super Bowl in 15 years. Let's see something now here. You're in year eight of Gutekunst's tenure, year seven of LeFleur.

1:15:45Haven't made it to a Super Bowl yet. This is the Green Bay Packers. So when I say that for players in Jordan Love, there's more urgency, I think that sense of urgency goes a little bit deeper into the coaching staff in the front office as well.

1:15:59Robert Mays: You can't keep telling the story of we're so young. we're going to break through. We're so young, we're going to break through. And I've been guilty of this. I look at what they've been on offense the last couple of years, and it's been a good offense. And there's something in the back of my mind that's like, there has to be development from these guys. Tucker Craft is going to take another step this year. I do feel like Matthew Golden unlocks everything else in a way that makes sense. But it's all theoretical at this point. And even if you're trying to talk yourself into the best version of this offense, even if Matthew Golden is good from day one, there are no superstars here.

1:16:25Robert Mays: Josh Jacobs is a good player. There's a lot of good players. When you think about the teams that are constructed that way. And I would extend that to the offensive line as well. Good players. When you think about teams that are constructed that way and how they can be playing on championship Sunday, usually it's the quarterback that lifts those good but not great rosters. And that's where this comes down to Jordan Love. Is Jordan Love going to be the guy? I know he was banged up last year, but is he going to be the guy we've seen for most of the last two years where it's a little bit inconsistent?

1:16:50Robert Mays: It's explosive, but it's hard to rely on. It's a little bit volatile. Or is he going to take that step forward? And to me, if he doesn't, I have questions about how the rest of this can come together, even if you're excited and encouraged by the component parts. Yeah, last year, yes, the injury was part of it. He sprains his MCL week one in Brazil, misses the next two full games, comes back too soon against the Vikings. I don't want to say comes back too soon, but came back when he still wasn't 100 percent and then got back into a rhythm, pulls a groin against the Jaguars in week eight. He didn't really practice in full consistently until midway to the second half of the season.

1:17:29And Matt LaFleur attributed Love's sloppy footwork to not being able to hone in on those fundamentals during practice, since that's when you kind of really drill that stuff. Jordan Love's numbers, you know, I think last year it was 25 touchdowns, 11 interceptions. 2023 it was 32 touchdowns, 11 interceptions maybe. be. So the numbers dipped a little bit, but Matt LaFleur this offseason strongly pushed back against the narrative that Jordan Love regressed because of the injuries kind of affecting his footwork. Granted, he needs to have better footwork and not get all loosey-goosey all over the place.

1:18:07And some of his decision-making was certainly lacking. There were a couple plays where he threw it right into the chest of a linebacker. He needs to find out a way to... you know you know aaron was great at i'm not saying no look passes but drawing defenders one way with your eyes and throwing it the other way that's something maybe jordan love can incorporate more into his game uh so he doesn't look like he's targeting linebackers and the other thing is the packers i think true media had them 27th in the nfl with 29 drops last year and the guy who fans think drops everything, Christian Watson, had like one or two.

1:18:47Jaden Reed, Dontavian Wicks, Romeo Dobbs, way too many drops. They need to catch the football because that was another point that LaFleur made. His stats would look way different if his guys could actually catch the ball. I remember, so I think the Packers played the Lions in week. I forget what week they played the first time. it seemed like it was midway through the season ish but the packers had six drops in that game alone it was raining granted and up until that point the lions had six drops all season so like i'm not saying the packers would have beat the lions but they need to get their quarterback healthy he needs to refine some of the fundamentals of his footwork and his guys need to catch passes and and that's part of the reason they drafted matthew golden was because brian gutekun said on draft night that he thought golden had arguably the best hands in the draft now you're you're not going to say oh we thought he had the fourth best hands in the draft but we have seen those hands on display at camp they're tremendous so look mike sandoz qb tears at jordan love number 13 i think that's totally fair um i would put him at number 12 probably if he stays healthy i see no reason why he can't firmly be in the top 10.

1:20:04Like his ability, I'm trying to figure out the right way to put this. Last season, there was a lot of aggressive decision-making and it backfired. But LaFleur doesn't want to totally rein that back because it's that same aggressive decision-making that results in plays not a lot of quarterbacks in this league can make. So the Packers, they don't want interceptions, but they're willing to take some of the bad that comes with his style of play because they think more often than not it'll result in good.

1:20:33Robert Mays: I think there's a case to be made here with fewer drops, with him being healthier, with steps forward from the scope position talent, that this thing all can come together. More than anything, I'm trying to rein myself in here and just be like, listen, let's see it. Let's see it before we just kind of treat this as a foregone conclusion. But I think all of that stuff makes sense. The one kind of personnel thing that's kind of unsettled in terms of who's going to start, the receivers are all going to play. They've got six of them. Savion Williams is going to be involved in this to take some of the work off of Jaden Reed.

1:20:59Robert Mays: I think that's going to be hard to parse other than Matthew Golden probably emerging as the best case scenario for them at wide receiver. The offensive line is what is still unsettled. We're still rotating left tackles here on August 12th. How do you think that five ultimately shakes out when we get to week one? Yeah, well, I think the reason they're rotating left tackles is because Rasheed Walker has been battling a groin injury. And today was actually the first day he did 11 on 11 stuff in maybe a week, more than a week. um also so jordan morgan who you saw rotating at left tackle he was their first round pick last year and he battled a shoulder injury in camp he was the starting right guard until he you know was out with a shoulder injury he was in and out of the lineup and then what they settled on was a rotation with sean ryan who's now the starting right guard they thought the best chance jordan morgan had to start as a rookie first round pick was at right guard last year so they did kind of of a rotation and then Morgan had season ending shoulder surgery played only six games I think this year they say okay Sean Ryan's got a hold on that right guard spot Jordan Morgan who is a left tackle at Arizona has been adamant that he wants to prove he can be a left tackle in the NFL they're working him there as well Brian Gutekunst has said it would take a lot for essentially I'm paraphrasing he said it would take something significant for Rasheed Walker to be unseated He has started since David Bakhtiari went down.

1:22:24He's not the best left tackle in the league, but he's a solid left tackle, and they don't grow on trees, but he's a solid player, 2022 seventh-round pick out of Penn State. So I don't think that left tackle spot is up for grabs. I think right now part of it is easing Rasheed Walker back in, and part of it is, okay, can Jordan Morgan be our starting left tackle next year? Because Rasheed Walker is in a contract year. He's probably going to command a ridiculous amount of money in free agency because tackles don't grow on trees. And the Packers have a guy in a rookie contract they can just put there.

1:22:59Robert Mays: Here's my question. Are the Packers better off if Jordan Morgan is the right guard and Rasheed Walker is the left tackle this year? I understand the succession. Yeah, I don't think so. You don't think so. Do you think that's a problem? No. Jordan Morgan can't beat out Sean Ryan for the right guard job? That's probably a better question. They emphasize, you know, best five, best five, best five, and whatever that may be. And it really seems like this year they think their best five is with Sean Ryan at right guard. And he's clearly come a long way since having to... Sean Ryan said himself recently that it's reassuring to him that they're not rotating him with Jordan Morgan anymore.

1:23:36And they're just playing him at left tackle because he's like, that lets them know that I'm essentially going to be the starter here. The other interesting moves they made, obviously, Zach Tom. They paid him big money, rightfully so. 2022 fourth round pick who he's not a household name around the league, but there were only two right tackles who got more all pro votes last year than Zach Tom. He's a good player. It was Vinay Sewell and Lane Johnson. So Zach Tom's a near all pro player. They signed Aaron Banks in free agency, the former 49ers left guard, big mauler in the run game, four years, 77 million.

1:24:12and that moved Elton Jenkins, who made two Pro Bowls at left guard, to center. Now, Jenkins was a center at Mississippi State. That was his best position coming out in 2019. He was the second-round pick. He's going to play center for these guys. He's played center sparingly in the past, and the one game he did last year was in that rain game against Detroit, and he botched three snaps with Jordan Love in that game. So I don't know how good of a sample size that is, but yeah, they're going to line up, assuming health is good, Rasheed Walker, Aaron Banks, Elton Jenkins, Sean Ryan, and Zach Tom week one.

1:24:45Robert Mays: Do you think that's better than last year's group? Probably. Just because, look, I don't know nearly as much about offensive line play as these coaches. And the reason they signed Aaron Banks, let Josh Myers walk, who was a solid center for them the last four years, and moved Elton Jenkins over is because they felt that could give them their best five. So I have no reason to believe that it can't. Jordan Morgan's played well recently. He played well in the preseason game on Saturday. He's been playing well in practice. Goody spoke highly of him this morning. But I think you can look at it two ways.

1:25:25It's probably not good that your first-round pick from last year is still on the bench. But it's also good for depth that your first-round pick from last year is available to come off the bench, maybe.

1:25:36Robert Mays: My kind of thing, though, is that next year, if he's the left tackle, then you spent a second round pick on a guy who's going to be your swing tackle next year. If Jordan Morgan's going to be the left tackle. Or they move Belton inside to guard. That could also happen. You don't need to get super down. We don't need to talk about Anthony Belton's position next. But I just think that this team and how they approach the offensive line, it's unlike anybody else. It's fascinating. Just like all the contingencies they build in. And I think I get wanting to do it that way and protecting yourself. I just think they over index it a little bit too much when it comes to resource.

1:26:06You know, the whole league better than I do, but I'd have a hard time believing there's any team better at drafting and I mean, Philly, obviously, but drafting and developing on the offensive line. If you go back to the Ted Thompson days, Josh Sitton, TJ Lang, Corey Linsley, David Bakhtiari, Zach Tom, all day three picks in a draft, all like pro bowl level offensive linemen. It's ridiculous. And Rasheed Walker is a solid start.

1:26:33Robert Mays: They've done a great job. It's more so just like a strange curiosity of mine. The fact that they're so intense on this. Yeah. Let's talk about the defense because this is a unit that coming into last year, I thought had a real chance to take a step forward. They did. They were a top 10 unit according to a lot of metrics that you would look at. But they were they accomplished that in a very different way than I thought they would. I thought this front would be really good. Nope. They pumped a ton of resources into it. You know, guys like Carl Brooks and Wooten. Like, I just felt like there were wooden.

1:26:59Robert Mays: There were so many guys who were like, Dave, there's a lot of depth. I really feel like this can be a game-changing unit. And then it just wasn't. And they got by on bells and whistles, and Edron Cooper is a blitzer. But now they essentially bring back most of this group, except for Nate Hupps. That is the defense again. So do we think, with another year with a new defensive line coach, they can get that progress from all of those highly drafted defensive linemen and kind of supercharge this thing a little bit? the message this offseason from brian guttekunst was that he was basically trusting the guys they already had to make a year-to-year jump whether it was the miles garrett max crosby trey hendrickson stuff like the packers could have made an otherworldly offer who knows maybe they did i don't know how much those guys were actually on the block but they didn't make like a splash move in free agency for say a josh sweat or make an over-the-top offer for trey hendrickson that I know of.

1:27:58It's tough for fans to buy into what the GM is selling when it's, okay, we have to wait six months to see if Lucas Van Ness has gotten better. We have to wait six months to see if Rashawn Gary can maybe overcome some of these chips and thumps that he's getting, or if Kingsley and Agbari can take some of the double teams off Rashawn Gary. It's not a, oh, we got Josh Jacobs and Xavier McKinney. Everyone feels good and optimistic about our team. It was more of like trust the process this offseason. Hope guys like Luke Musgrave on the offensive side or Lucas Van Ness take that next step. Van Ness is going to be under an intense eye from the fan base this year.

1:28:35He's a third-year guy. He was taken with the first-round pick that they got in the Aaron Rodgers trade. They went from 15 to 13, took Van Ness. The short answer is I don't know if the pass rush is going to be any better. There were games last year, like they had eight sacks against the Titans, seven sacks against the Seahawks, but then they would go missing in other games. Gutekunst called them inconsistent. They fired their D-line coach, hired DeMarcus Covington, DC from the Patriots. The other thing I'll say, and you kind of teased it, when Jeff Halfley came on, Matt LaFleur thought at the beginning of last year that they would be able to just rush a traditional four and generate pressure that way, drop seven into coverage.

1:29:15That was not the case. So that's why, like you mentioned, they were running a lot of these exotic pressures and Edger and Cooper coming through the B-gap or Xavier McKinney off the edge. And, you know, they call them replacement fire zones, basically, where they mug six, seven guys up on the line of scrimmage, drop a defensive lineman into coverage and blitz a non-defensive lineman to make it look like a blitz, but it's not really. So they had to get creative. Do they want to get back to, you know, rushing a traditional four this year? Probably, since that's the most sustainable way to do it. That's kind of how the Eagles do things.

1:29:49but I can't sit here and say I believe in the pass rush yet if I haven't seen a game yet.

1:29:53Robert Mays: But there's so much of this. There's so much, well, we think it's going to go this way. We think these guys are going to take a step and it's just hard to know. It's hard to know about any of this stuff. And so you talk yourself into it. We were like, well, of course the young guys will get better. And that, it just seems like we're here again with this team having to tell ourselves that. Yeah. And you mentioned Nate Hobbs. He's kind of the one new guy. And as we mentioned he's recovering from knee surgery right now a torn meniscus no Jair Alexander they've kind of gotten used to playing without him the last couple years Keyshawn Nixon is this team's number one cornerback which I know not a lot of fans are happy about but look this defense lived off takeaways last year they ranked in the top five in takeaways in fumbles recovered they were top six or seven in scoring defense.

1:30:41Their rush defense was dramatically improved. The one area that kind of really lacked was the pass rush. And their sack percentage and pressure numbers are fine, but those numbers don't tell the whole story if you watched the whole season. Are those takeaways going to be sustainable? They've really been emphasizing this camp, punching at the ball, taking it away. They even named one of their defensive quality control coaches the ball king like they don't call him by his actual name they call him ball king because they have this whole presentation every week to to the team you know with with this wd i wrote a story about it i don't need to explain it but this wwe belt this competition about you know punching the ball out it's this whole thing that they do to emphasize taking the ball away but i wonder can they sustain all those takeaways and interceptions and can like xavier mckinney had an interception in each of the first five games of last season.

1:31:38But then he went a stretch without one because teams are just like, why do we keep throwing at him? Just throw away from him. They're not going to throw it at him. They're going to throw it at Keyshawn Nixon and Nate Hobbs and see if these two guys who are traditionally nickel corners can handle being on an island. And if those two guys can hold up, I think this team's going to be all right.

1:31:56Robert Mays: Yeah. And I think they stumbled into something last year where they were playing a ton of too high cloud coverages because of the corners. And I think they will continue to do that in part to hide the corners. Whether or not you can play that way in the biggest games of the year and be a little bit inflexible, this team does not play a lot of man coverage. They really can't because of the corners that they have. I do think that they'll be able to hide them enough if the pass rush can really crank it up, if Cooper can take another step. But again, it's like you need some of this in-house progress and this in-house development for it all to come together.

1:32:25Robert Mays: And I just kind of feel like I have to be in wait and see mode. I want to get excited about this team, but I think we have to be in wait and see mode with all of this stuff that, while promising, is still very unsettled. It may not be fair to put all the chips in the middle with regards to week one, but they played the Lions week one. They lost to the Lions by three points last year. They lost twice to the Eagles last year. They lost twice to the Vikings by two points each time. These guys were close, but as the season went on, it was the same message. It was, oh, we're close, we're close. Then they lose again to the Eagles.

1:32:59It's like, well, you got to show it now. Great teams finish these games, and the Packers didn't. They were 1-5 in the division. They were 0-6 against the top three teams in the NFC, themselves being the fourth best team in the NFC. And I agree with you. It's kind of a wait-and-see mode. I think they go 11-6 this year, but if they come out against the Lions and blow them out, then it'll be a different kind of narrative. If they don't, then it'll be, oh, nothing's changed with this team. It's not fair to put that much on week one, probably, but it's a massive game to kind of be a measuring stick for where these guys are at.

1:33:34Robert Mays: There's no doubt. And again, I want to be excited about this team because I do believe in a lot of the component parts. I believe in the coaching on both sides of the ball. I think the offense will be fun and dynamic. I think they'll use all these guys in interesting ways, but I can't get bogged down in the fact that this team is fun to study on a Tuesday, right? At a certain point, you need great players and you need to come up in the biggest moments. And I know that's cliche shit, but when it comes to this team, that's kind of where I'm at right now, in part because I've had to teach myself that about this team.

1:34:02Right. Because look, in 2023, they were playing with house money. Yeah, exactly. It looked like they were three and six. They traded Rasul Douglas. It looked like they were going to just maybe even have a top five pick in the Caleb Williams draft. And I wrote about, do they need to try and draft a quarterback? Because Jordan Love hadn't gotten his extension yet. Then they turn it on. They make the playoffs. They beat the Chiefs and Lions in the second half of the season. They go in and dominate the Cowboys in the playoffs. they take a lead in the fourth quarter against the 49ers in the divisional round like they were a quarter away from making the nfc championship game and last year packers were everybody's trendy pick to to go further and jordan love gets hurt guys drop passes defense is great but the offense never really kind of caught up they still make the playoffs but it was kind of a unremarkable year where they were good but not elite this year it's like okay the youth is not the two youngest teams by average age in the last 45 years to make the NFL playoffs are the 2023 Packers and the 2024 Packers.

1:35:07Hang the banner. Enough. Like, yeah, that they might still be the youngest team in the NFL. I don't know for sure. Tucker Craft said they are. I have not double checked his research. But look, Goody says it a lot. Youth is whatever. It's about the experience. Guys like Jaden Reed and Romeo Dobbs and and Watson when he gets back and Wicks and Musgrave and Kraft. all those guys were playing in that Cowboys game. Sure, they might just be like 24, 25, 26 years old, but they have the experience of veterans. Yep. So not that they use that youth as an excuse before, but it's certainly not an excuse now.

1:35:42Robert Mays: It's a great way to end it. Matt Schneidman, always appreciate the time, sir. Always a pleasure. Great to chat with you. Talk to you very soon. Yes, sir. All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Paul. Thank you so much to James. Thank you so much to Matt. Really enjoyed chatting with all three of them. Hope you guys enjoy the conversation as well. We're going to have another one of these coming to you tomorrow. Kevin Fishbane, our Bears writer, Tashaun Reed, our Raiders writer, and Matt Barrows, one of our Niners writers at The Athletic. So please be on the lookout for that. Just a reminder, this Monday, the first episode of Building the Beast with Dane Brugler and Dave Hellman, our new relaunched draft show is going to be in your feeds for all of you draft sickos out there.

1:36:20Robert Mays: If you want August to May draft coverage, we have you covered at the athletic football show. One of the reasons that we do this is because Dana is the best. And I think that not doing it with him would be silly. And so we're very excited about pairing him with somebody in Dave who he's worked with before. Dave loves college football. I think it's going to be really cool to have as part of what we're doing all season. And I think you guys are going to enjoy it. So please check out the debut episode on Monday for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

1:37:20Robert Mays: We'll see you next time. Terms apply. See discover.com slash five for details.