TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Bills and Steelers beat writers

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0:55Robert Mays: welcome to the athletic football show got something a little bit different for you guys today it's our next iteration of the training camp notebook we're going to be chatting with our bills writer at the athletic joe boscaglia and our steelers writer at the athletic mike defabo visited both of those training camps during my i don't know what area of the country that would be rust belt swing going from buffalo to cleveland down to pittsburgh enjoyed my chats with both of those guys, but we have to address some of the news that's happened over the last couple of days. So me and Derek Klassen took some time to chat about the Rashawn Slater injury and the injury to CJ Gardner-Johnson.

1:30Robert Mays: I was actually at Texans practice when CJ Gardner-Johnson got hurt. And we're just going to discuss what both of those injuries mean for 2024 playoff teams. I mean, team guys that both of those teams were relying on in big ways. And obviously the Slater injury is devastating for the Chargers and what they were hoping for with that offense this year. So dug into that injury news with Derek and then did some deep dive conversations about both the Bills and Steelers with our beat writers at The Athletic. Let's get to those conversations right now. All right, Derek, a little special, unfortunate weekend programming that we're having to dig into here.

2:09Robert Mays: We're going to be getting to our conversations with a couple beat writers later on the show. We've been doing the training camp notebooks on each weekend. we're going to continue that. But there's been some news over the last couple of days with training camp injuries that we unfortunately have to hit. And let's start with the big one. This was one of those that when I came across the timeline, I was driving from West Virginia to Cincinnati. And as soon as I saw it, when I pulled over to kick ass, I was like, you got to be kidding me. Like that's, that is the only reaction to something like this.

2:39Robert Mays: Thankfully, Rashawn Slater just got paid. Unfortunately, he tore his patella tendon and is going to miss the entire 2025 season, which there's no way to spend this. It's devastating for the chargers. It's devastating for the chargers. And yeah, it's devastating for him again, glad that he got paid before any of this was a problem. Cause obviously, um, you know, the other thing that I was kind of worried about with him was like the Ronnie Stanley situation where he got hurt kind of as he was needing to get paid. And that, that really ended up being like a complicated situation there for a little bit.

3:08So I feel for him, cause this isn't the first time right like he's he missed pretty much all of the 2022 season um with the major injury so for him for such a young like up and coming truly one of the best tackles in the league i think for him to be missing time is it's gonna hurt and like i think the way that i framed this from the chargers perspective was this obviously sucks for this year it's gonna make things a lot more difficult you drafted omerian hampton you think you're gonna be this rushing offense now slater is not going to be out there i think that hurts a lot in my mind though i didn't envision this Chargers team as like a Super Bowl team.

3:41But in my mind, two years from now, what the Super Bowl team looks like is Rashawn Slater playing like a top five left tackle. And if he's going to have another season long injury that's maybe thrown into his history here, you just worry a little bit if he's if he's going to be able to recover again to bring up Ronnie Stanley. He is a guy who battled injuries for like two, three years and is again playing like that caliber of left tackle. So these younger guys who are incredible athletes can obviously do it. But this really is a thorn in their side this season and it sucks.

4:09Robert Mays: We've seen guys work back from this decently quick. I believe Josh Simmons tore his patella tendon last season when he was at Ohio State and now he's going to be able to play at the start of this season. So the turnaround for him to be ready for 2026 isn't crazy, but when you're not going to be able to work out for an entire off season, you probably hit the ground running a little bit slower. It just completely offsets like whatever the next two years were supposed to look like for him. And he's clearly a huge part of what that team is and how they're built. I mean, just think about the resources they've poured into the tackle position.

4:38Robert Mays: They draft Joe out in the top five. They give Rashawn Slater this huge extension. Like this is what this team wants to be built through. And now you're removing one of those pillars. They're set up to sort of endure this because they still have Trey Pipkins on the roster. He's played a ton of football for this team. And this is the benefit of taking guys that were once starters and moving them into depth pieces is that you do have more depth than a team that only has two tackles. And like, man, if we have to play our swing tackle, we're just praying all the way through the year. But now you're slowly starting to chip away at what was supposed to be a strength, considering how this team was constructed and where they put their resources.

5:17Robert Mays: And to me, this is compounded because I still have questions about the interior. How is this going to go with Zion Johnson and Bradley Bozeman? And then can Mekhi Becton stay healthy? So now we go from, all right, in the best case scenario, this is a defined strength of this team to now. Now, if we get closer to the worst case scenario, how many guys on that line are true difference makers in 2025? There's a chance it's like one and a half. And if that's the case, I just don't think this Chargers team can be anything close to what it was trying to be this year. I don't either. And especially in terms of it felt like so much of what they were trying to do, one with even drafting Joe Alt, but everything they did this offseason with trying to sign, you know, they signed Mekhi Becton.

5:57They draft O'Marrion Hampton. they wanted to be a more balanced offense which they tried to be for the first month of last season and immediately realized we're actually not good at running the ball whatsoever so they were clearly trying to be a different team and and really iterate on what they were last season where they kind of got stuck just being this this really high volume passing game that i don't think they want to be and so again you remove slater from that that realm where he really can move people like he's obviously a good pass protector as well but in the run game he is one of those guys who is a true weapon and if we're going to take him out of the equation again we're really banking on three interior players that were playing next to him that I think if Slater had been there would have changed the math a lot now that he's not I think is also interesting I'm also curious like I know they have Trey Pipkins but does all of this mean like alt is going to flip to the other side and play left side the way that he did in college like it just it brings up some weird questions like is that even good for him at this stage in his career I just don't know

6:52Robert Mays: and I think the the Richon Slater run blocking part of this is huge because what is Trey Pipkins' worst element of his game? It's what he brings in the run game and now let's just say Joe gives you something akin to what Richon Slater was in like 2023 and Trey Pipkins is now your right tackle again Mekhi Becton gets hurt now we're back in a spot where this is the 2023 Los Angeles Chargers offensive line again it's just one step forward two steps back because of this and it's just really a hard reality to face if you're a chargers fan when they've done so much to try to change the complexion of what this group was supposed to look like yeah i'm it's just it's frustrating because again you there wasn't that many changes that they needed or that they were making in the offense other than again you add basically a superstar running back and try to change the game and now again if slater's not going to be there it's hard to see where the ceiling for the offense is supposed to go without a guy like that another offseason in addition that was supposed to lift one of these units was CJ Gardner Johnson going to the Texans and that trade for Kenyon Green.

7:57Robert Mays: I was actually at Texans practice on the day that this happened to CJ Gardner Johnson. So I was, I went to the bathroom and I was walking back and the entire field was just silent. Everyone was quiet. A lot of the guys were taking a knee, they were bringing out the cart. And so from the beginning, from the moment it happened, it seemed like it was a potentially serious injury. Talking to coaches in the immediate aftermath, they weren't sure what the prognosis was. We have gotten some information that it is not a torn ACL. So he is not out for the season, but it is a pretty serious injury and he's going to miss extended time.

8:29Robert Mays: And Jimmy Ward is also hurt and he's dealing with a legal issue right now. So this is a really thin safety group for the Texans without CJ Gardner Johnson. We're talking about MJ Stewart back there, probably from day one now. And this was supposed to be one of the best secondaries in the league. And now you've removed a pretty important component piece from that before we even get to the second week of August. Yeah, it's it's another one that's that's concerning. Like, thankfully for them, you saw Derek Stingley, you know, Kamari Lasseter played well last year. Bullock is a good player. So they at least have more around that unit in a way that I don't really feel with the Chargers other than Joe Alt.

9:05But this was I mean, we kind of joked about it. But when they, you know, traded for him, this was already one of the most unhinged defenses in the NFL with Aziz Alshair. Like all these corners can hit Jalen Petrie is kind of an insane person. And so for them to have wanted to add him, I think they really wanted to kick that up from 10 to 11 and to not have C.J. Gardner Johnson. It's one of those. I mean, kind of like what you were talking about with Alt and Slater, right? Like they got those guys to form an identity and Gardner Johnson was kind of supposed to play into that. And now the fact that he's, you know, it's nice that it's not an ACL and potentially isn't going to completely ruin his season.

9:40But if he's not going to be out there for a majority of the year, especially early on, it is pretty unfortunate for what this defense, I think, is trying to be aware. If we don't know what the offense is going to be, the defense has to be a top five elite unit again.

9:53Robert Mays: And that's why this is important. I think the Texas defense will still be good with or without C.J. Gardner Johnson. and they were good without him last year. But with him in the lineup, this was a group top to bottom, the top like 11 to 12 pieces they had. Where are the weaknesses? Like maybe the interior, the defensive line is like a relative weakness for this team compared to some others, but they're so crazy off the edge. And then when Autry gets back, you can kick him inside. There just weren't, there really wasn't a position group where you're like, I'm even mildly worried about this coming into the season.

10:25Robert Mays: Everything was a pronounced strength. And now you remove a little bit of that if you start digging into your safety depth. They're still going to be a very good defense if everyone else stays healthy. But it's just one tick down from where they were, which was potentially the most talented defense in the entire NFL. Exactly. Like it's one of those things where, again, if this offense isn't going to be, you know, better than average, which I think there's a long way for them to go to get there. The defense does have to be a top three unit. And the difference between having a guy like C.J. Gardner Johnson, especially in the middle of the defense, that could be the difference between being the seventh best defense and being the second or third best defense.

11:02And so it's just it is tricky for them. So I hope that he can come back and play at some point, you know, potentially if they need him later in the season. But it's unfortunate that they're not going to have him to start.

11:13Robert Mays: We'll talk more about this when we do our big Texans preview. but in talking to people there yesterday, I think one of the little wrinkles they feel like they can lean into on defense is that Kamari Lassiter is now going into last season. At this time last year, I was in with the Texans at almost the exact dates in 2024 as I was with them this year. And at that point, they were excited about Kamari Lassiter, but you never know. Like you truly never know before you watch a guy actually play some games. And now they're like, oh yeah, he's just a good player. Like he's a definitively good player.

11:44Robert Mays: And so they think they can put a little bit more on the corners than they have in the past and maybe take some of the onus off of the middle of the field defenders. And so I think that version of this defense where last there's like a burgeoning star and you still have Derek Stingley, it makes the safety play a little bit less important. Like you're putting fewer hard downs on those guys, but it still is going to hurt you either way. Even if the construction of who you are is putting less of a burden on those players in the middle, you still want a guy like CJ Gardner Johnson out there. Absolutely.

12:12And like so much of their success last year obviously the corners are good but a lot of their success last year was they had like maybe the best one-two punch off the edge in the entire NFL and like those guys were really healthy for a lot of the year and there's just a chance that I don't know if you miss five games of Will Anderson or five games of Neil Hunter whatever it is when you don't have some of the depth that you wanted at safety that sort of stuff can start to compound on itself so again it's just one of those like not having the safety depth that I think they want right now is one of those you just start hitting your contingency plans that you don't really want to have to be digging into in August I don't want to get into it right now

12:49Robert Mays: Will Anderson Jr. looks crazy right now he looks he's gonna be a stud his just physically like in pads he looks wild right now like just how big and strong he looks for like a defensive end just like top to bottom, like how filled out he is. He's always been a strong player, but like what he has done with his body heading into year three is just wild. And then some of the discussions I had about him yesterday and just like what he's been doing in the off season and what he looks like right now on the practice field. We're going to have a couple more Will Anderson discussions as we get to prediction time, as we get a little bit closer to the season.

13:27Robert Mays: I can tell you that right now. I'm all ears for that. I remember we did the drafting defensive players show like a year ago before I was even officially on the athletic show. And I was like, I've won Will Anderson very early. So if he's going to add, you know, five, 10 more pounds of muscle and be a little bit stronger, I'm, I'm ready for the all pro Will Anderson season. Every once in a while, you just get to a camp and you see a person in person and it's like, oh my God. And obviously every year, Miles Garrett is like that. But when I saw Will Anderson this year, Jalen Phillips, the first time I ever saw Jalen Phillips in person was like that, where I was like, holy shit.

13:58Robert Mays: And that I've seen Will Anderson practice before. What he looks like right now is just an entirely different conversation. And so that was one of the things that jumped out to me at Texans camp. And again, we will be revisiting that discussion as we talk about some big picture Texans stuff a little bit closer to kickoff. For now, though, we are going to get to our beat writer conversations on this edition of the training camp notebook. Let's get to our discussion with Joe Biscaglia, our Bills writer right now. Hey, everyone. Michael Beller for behind the scenes at the athletic football show here.

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17:57Robert Mays: Joining us now from a dorm room at St. John Fisher University, it is our Bills writer here at the Athletic Joe Buscaglia. Joe, very good to see you, sir. Yeah, you too, Robert. I'm always excited whenever you make the rounds here to Pittsburgh, New York. Just a cool hour and 15 from Buffalo. It makes me, I was saying this when we got in here, it reminds me of like basketball camp when I was in middle school. Just being in this sort of dorm room and looking at this twin bed that I can't believe I slept on at one time in my life, but I'm just crushing it. Yeah. They do give us the option to stay here overnight, but I, being a 6 '4 borderline, 6 '5 man, never going to happen ever again.

18:35Yeah.

18:35Robert Mays: You're like a man in his mid-30s with a child. I think your dorm days are probably over when it's an hour away from home. I'm absolutely shot. Tons of stuff. Honestly, I'm going to have to work on this because this could be an hour-long conversation if I let it be. We've talked about this in the past. This team is an object of fascination for me for a lot of different reasons. I think when you're at this stage, and you're trying to kick down the door, and you're trying to figure out how to make it happen, and just all the different tweaks and the way they thought about the roster, it's always just a team whose process I've appreciated and whose ascension I've appreciated.

19:08Robert Mays: Because I think everyone's trying to do what this team has done over the last eight years. But I don't want this to be an hour-long discussion. Let's start here. I get here today, about 10 minutes after getting here. Sean McDermott does a press conference. It's like the meme, the McDuck meme where he unrolls the scroll. That's what it felt like with him reading off the injuries for this team right now. So let's just reset. It's August 3rd. This isn't going to come out for a little while. So some of this stuff may be settled by the time this even runs. Which Bill's injuries are you actually worried about and which Bill's injuries are you not concerned about right now?

19:39I think the one I would be most concerned about is Khalil Shakir, just because it just happened on Friday, which was august 1st at that point and he's a high ankle high ankle sprain and those things linger so the the plus side of it is they have the time and space right now ahead of the regular season to like get a handle on it the bad part about it is guys often try to come back on the high ankle sprain way too prematurely and especially for someone as as important as kalil shakir is to the offense even though he's a slot only player like he's he's josh allen's everything when when they face their gotta have it situations so that would be the one that i think i would be most concerned about a lot of this stuff this time of the year and this is something that they've learned over the years is they have been really um they've they've operated under a lot of caution with their injuries just because they do have all this time ahead of the regular season and they learn those lessons the hard way about um about trying to force guys back too early in summer while they're trying to get ready for the regular season.

20:46So that's why I think a lot of them, they'll be fine. And even during install, you see guys like Terrell Bernard and Taylor Rapp and Cole Bishop. They're participating probably because they're a lot closer than you would think they are. That makes sense. Being cautious.

20:59Robert Mays: I was watching today. I think Catherine Fitzgerald tweeted about James Cook being on the exercise bike. I was like, everybody's on the exercise bike. It looks like a spin class next to the field because of how many guys are banged up right now. Do you bring your ballots on, Jesus? I listen. I did the Peloton yesterday. I will do it again tonight. I need to. I'm on the road if I'm going to eat like this. Right, right. The skill position talent in general, I think, is really intriguing because it's a constant conversation with this team. How are the roles going to shake out? Because you have close care as a slot only player.

21:27Robert Mays: In theory, Dalton Kincaid would be best to use as a slot receiver. Keon Coleman has been pegged as like an X receiver, but probably shouldn't be used that way. Now you have Josh Palmer in the mix. It's early in August. We've had pads on for like a week. But as you're trying to sort through what the receiving roles on this team will look like, what the target share might look like, just how the hierarchy of those spots are shaking out, how would you talk me through that? Yeah, I think I've seen Shakir do a bit more of two receiver stuff this time of the year than I did last year. But I don't think it's so overwhelming that we can expect a complete role shift for him where he's near 100 % snap player.

22:08Keon Coleman, like you said, he's their prototypical ex. Joe Brady will say until he's blue in the face, oh, we don't have positions. But they do. It was her who said to me again today. And Keon practices at X every single day. And that's what happens. Last year, they had a problem where they had too many X receiver types, which was Coleman, Amari Cooper, and Mack Hollins. They tried to force feed Cooper and Hollins into the Z receiver role. It didn't really go well. I mean, Hollins, I remember this time last year, we were like, Matt Collins is going to play a lot more. And he did. But that so Coleman will be a high snap guy.

22:42I think Josh Palmer and I've written this. I think Josh Palmer has a chance to be the sneaky candidate to have more snaps than any Bills receiver on the roster this year. They actually signed him to a pretty legitimate contract in the offseason.

22:55Robert Mays: He was the highest paid free agent wide receiver other than Devontae Adams. I know. I know he and they really like what he brings to the table because he separates. They don't have anybody else as a boundary receiver right now that separates the way that he that he does. I mean, Curtis Samuel, not really sure what he is at this point. He's constantly hurt. Elijah Moore hasn't really been able to prove it while on the field. So they've got Palmer. He's going to be their Z receiver. He can also play X, can also play slot. They're going to move him all around the place. So I think he's going to have a legitimately large role.

23:25And then tight ends, they're going to play a lot of 12 personnel. I don't know exactly how much it's going to shake out. Like early in the season before Kincaid got injured, he was getting around like that 65 percent mark. And I feel like that's that 60 to 70 mark is a pretty safe estimate for him. The nuanced part of the conversation is that Dawson Knox, who they also absolutely love, who's the other player tight end in the 12 personnel look. They can save just under$10 million to move on from him next year. So does that facilitate a bigger role for Dalton Kincaid to see if he can do more blocking stuff?

24:02He's going to have to prove it in the regular season. The one thing they said all offseason was, we need Dalton to be stronger, which is code for we need him to be able to block so we can use him more in a versatile manner. So that would be the way that I kind of see it play now.

24:14Robert Mays: That makes total sense. I think the Palmer separation thing, when you look at the man coverage numbers for this team last year, it does make sense. I think we fixate on this. Who's going to get the most snaps? Who's going to get the most reps? Partly from a fantasy perspective, but also just it's a natural way to think about it. I think it matters in some ways and doesn't matter in others. I think it doesn't matter in probably the overall quality of the offense over the course of the regular season. This was one of the best offenses in the league. I believe Vegas has them projected to score the most points in the NFL.

24:40Robert Mays: Not having a true star if the overall formula is working with one of the best players in the world, a quarterback, that can be fine for you. But when you get to the most important games of the year, it's really important to have these needle moving type players. And that's where the usage and deployment starts to become some of an issue. Because if Keon Coleman is going to take a significant step forward, if Dalton Cade is going to take a significant step forward, the ways that you use them fuel into that. And that's why I'm a little bit concerned that we're square peg round holing some of the guys in the offense, because it's about lifting the ceiling of this group in the most important moments of the year.

25:14Robert Mays: Those are guys you drafted in the first round. They need to be the guys who are dictating games to other teams. So even if it looks good and the efficiency numbers are great all year, do you have those one or two guys on the offense that you feel are the players that can take over a game in the most important games of the year? You are so dead on. And they are putting a lot of stock into both Keon Coleman and Dalton Kincaid making a jump this season because Coleman to them, They were fascinated with what he did early on in the season. Then he suffers the wrist injury after he got hit by Jordan Boyer in that game.

25:51And he wasn't really the same. But even in those first like eight weeks of the season, he was so inconsistent. Like the separation numbers are what they are. And he's always going to be that type of player. But if he's going to consistently win and take this jump that they need him to take, like he has to be on it. Like his his catch percentage has to be up. His contested catch percentage needs to be a lot higher than it was last year. And what we're seeing is so far through the summer, and take it with a grain of salt because it's the summer and training camp and everything like that. But this inconsistency has traveled over.

26:23We've seen incredible reps from him where he goes over the top of Dane Jackson during the stadium practice the other night. And he mosses him, basically. And you're like, oh, OK. I can see the vision of what he is. And then he'll have an opportunity where the cornerback falls behind him and he tries to one hand the catch and it falls incomplete. There's been a few times this year where he's had a catch hit him right in the hands and drops to the ground. Just an easy drop. And these are the the concentration stuff that things that he needs to overcome. But I just I'm skeptical because you need a very clear formula for him to be able to succeed and to take this leap.

27:04and I'm not sure he's got the consistency to do it. So that's the biggest question I have to which we could be sitting here this time next year where they have gone out and added a significant wide receiver because I think that is what this whole thing is setting up for. They made all these changes on the defense. That's what they focus all their efforts on. But now they need another gear out of their offense because they still have plenty of questions on defense. And if they don't get that from Keon Coleman and Shakir is just the same guy, which is good, but do you have, like you said, do you have that guy to put you over the top when you need it the most that steps into the limelight with Josh Allen?

27:45I don't know that they have that right now.

27:47Robert Mays: And the other candidate for that is probably Dolan Kincaid. And in talking to people today, there are two things that jumped out to me. One, the question of can he play an 11 personnel? Emphatic yes. And so do we see more of that? And that's obviously something you say on August 3rd. We'll see what happens when we actually get to the games. And the other side of it is just where is he at in general? Why do we think he can take another step forward? And I think the refrain with him, similar to Keon Coleman, is the injury last year was more impactful than we're making it out to be when you look at the total production over the course of the season.

28:15Robert Mays: Was he on track to maybe have a bigger impact down the stretch if he doesn't get hurt? That's what they're trying to sell you right now. We'll see if that actually ends up being the case because this is a position where the developmental curve historically has been very long. Partially, that's because you're doing a lot. You're blocking, you're receiving. Dalton Hunkate isn't really a prototypical tight end in that way. So I think that curve should be a little less steep. But still, he's only a third-year player in an offense that doesn't have a true number one option. I still have a flicker of a candle lit for him being the most important part of this passing game in the best possible version of who the Bills are, whether that's silly or not.

28:54No, I don't think it's silly at all because I'm still bullish on his talent. He's older than you think like he's 25 and which is older for a third year player uh i think he's nearing towards 26 um but he is to me talent wise he moves differently than all the other tight ends on the field and i really think these last couple of practice is friday and today it really seems like a definitive step forward in what he's been able to do so far this summer this time last year kincaid was great in camp and they've mentioned it a hundred times. But how much do they use him is the biggest question. How much are they willing to say, Dawson, we love you, but we're going to keep you on the sidelines here because that is the biggest thing standing in the way of Dalton Kincaid becoming this guy for the bills.

29:42I will say, though, I mean, his early season metrics were not as bad as people are making it out to be. I mean, he was if he was on a 17 game pace before he got hurt. And I think he would have been 10th in the NFL for catches from tight ends and tied for 13th with yards, which isn't like award winning by any means. But for someone who is a 60 to 65 % snap player, that's still pretty good, all things considered. And the talent is there. I just wonder how much they're willing to actually deploy it. And that's why to me, I think last year was a huge just conglomeration of these sky high expectations that weren't rooted in reality because of what was going on here, how much they loved Dawson Knox, how little that I think Joe Brady wanted to commit to 12 personnel as much as Ken Dorsey did back in 2023.

30:36So that is a piece of the puzzle. And then on top of it, he has not one, but two different knee injuries, has a PCL and has has this very rare injury to his right knee where that really set him back. And by the end of the season, he was only getting like thirty five to forty five percent of snaps. So it definitely did hinder him. But I'm with you. I think he's got if we're talking in fantasy, in a fantasy lens, there is some definite post hype sleeper to him because the talent is there.

31:06Robert Mays: I almost wish you weren't saying this because it's just you're only feeding into whatever delusions I currently have about this. And I'm actually really upset about it. I'm sorry. The running back position, obviously a question as well. James Cook had a interesting moment after practice today when asked why he isn't practicing. I get where he's coming from because we can play this chicken and egg game like we talked about earlier during practice today about the run game takes a step forward next year. Last year. How much of that is one of the best offensive lines in the league and how much of that is James Cook really taking a step?

31:34Robert Mays: It's probably a little bit of both. But then when you watch them practice out there today, when he's in sweats, he's wearing a beanie, even though it's 80 degrees outside. And you look at Ray Davis in that offense, and it can go with Ray Davis as a running back. You look at the pass catching ability. Ty Johnson is. Josh Allen loves Ty Johnson. He's made an explosive catch again today down the right sideline. I think this off against can still go with those two guys being the mainstays in your running back room. And I think that just puts James Cook in kind of an unfortunate position here. And even if you look back to the one game that Ray Davis had to himself where James Cook was on the sidelines against the Jets last year, Ray Davis went off.

32:11I mean, he even had like a 50 yard catch down where he double clutched and tried to high point failed, but still brought it down. He has that that skill set. I think the biggest thing for me with this whole James Cook contract situation are two main factors. One, you have him saying that he's a three down back and and saying that he wants to prove it and that he is going to prove it. All of these different things. But the bills are also actively telling us what they think of him. And that is you're an early down runner and we don't know. And they haven't said this publicly, but you can insinuate this.

32:48We don't know if you can pass block the way that you need. we need you to. Whereas Ty Johnson gives us the receiving skills and the pass blocking skills that we need out of out of those reps. And so when you have a running back who in his games active last year was around 46 percent of offensive snaps, like you're really going to pay like 12, 13, 14, 15 million a year for that player. And then what you brought up, the second part, the offensive line, their offensive line has been remarkably healthy over the last two years. And they made a massive jump this past year in having what I have felt was the best offensive line that Josh Allen has ever played behind.

33:27And they have that same starting five again this year. But also two of those guys are free agents as well. Connor McGovern and David Edwards, their center and left guard. So when you have that staring you in the face, James Cook staring you in the face and also Cyrus Torrance, their right guard, who's going to, I think, make a big jump in his third season. and you're probably going to have to pay him because you drafted him. What do you choose to pay? Because you just paid five different players extensions in the offseason. You're already over the cap in 2026. Can you really afford a luxury position with an inflated quarterback contract on your books, along with all these other core members of your team, for a player who's getting under 50 % that you don't know if you can trust on third down?

34:10Robert Mays: The Ty Johnson part of this and the protection part of it, I think, plays into a larger conversation about this team. we're trying to figure out okay how can the bills have the best offense in the league if we have no skill position players that we're overly excited about part of it is the running game part of it is there are all these quiet ways that josh allen and some of these role players make this offense better than it should be protection to me is like the number one aspect of this when we think about why josh allen has gone from an exciting fun player to one of the to the mvp of the league like legitimately what he does in protection and just all the quiet ways, motions, formations that this offense is better than your team's offense in ways that you don't notice.

34:51Robert Mays: The protection part of it is near the top of that list. And that's why Ty Johnson is more crucial to who this team is than people might think if they were looking at it from the outside. Yeah, absolutely. And the conversations that Josh Allen has before the snap, like if you talk to someone of the offensive linemen throughout the season about those conversations at the line. It's like, we talk more than any other team I've ever been on. And we are very clear and coding our words and everything like that. But they have legitimate 20-second long conversations before the snap. Whereas most quarterbacks are this check, let's check into this, center checks into something, and then you go from there.

35:28But that has been a massive part of his development over the time. Not only just the normal processing stuff that he's gotten so much better at, limiting more of his turnover-worthy plays, but being so in control pre-snap has been just this massive leap for him. And that's why, OK, we go back to the James Cook thing. Are you going to pay this guy who you can't trust to do that? Or at least you haven't proven you trust to do that? Paying him over your starting center, your starting left guard, or potentially your starting right guard who you drafted and developed.

36:01Robert Mays: When we're trying to figure out why some teams on offense overachieve and why some teams underachieve, flexibility and protections has become such a huge part of that conversation. The Texans last year are the worst example on one side, and I think the Bills are the best example on the other side. Those conversations are flexibility. We're making all cart decisions before the play begins because we've gotten information about what we think is coming. And that sort of malleability before the snap, where you're protecting yourself against anything that could happen, That's why some teams, even if the talent isn't leaping off the screen to you other than the quarterback, can be the best offense in the league.

36:35Yeah, they work incredibly well together, too. And I'm I'm expecting a big continuation of as long as they stay healthy of what they did last year, because this five, the chemistry that they have just one to the next to the next to the next. It's been so good from watching them just just on film last year. It's like, wow, this this unit took a massive jump. And you have to give a lot of credit to the offensive line coach, Aaron Cromer. And he's developed a lot of good players in Buffalo so far.

37:02Robert Mays: What are your main concerns on the defense right now as we look at personnel again on August 3rd? It's most to do with what they addressed in the offseason. Can they get to the passer? And the answer to that resoundingly against the Chiefs was no, because they got hit with a quick passing scheme from Patrick Mahomes in that AFC championship game. And now I will say not having Christian Benford for the majority of that game was absolutely crushing because then they were trying to play man coverage. No shot. Rasul Douglas and Kyrie Elam as your corners and Rasul really good zone corner. He's not a man corner anymore.

37:40He might not ever have been a man corner and Kyrie Elam. He just struggled in every phase of the game since he's since he's been in Buffalo. So when you have this quick hitting passing attack, you need to be able to get to them just at least to make Patrick think for a second. But they couldn't do that. They didn't get any interior pressure, which is the quickest point A to point B part on the defensive line. And the edge rushers just had no shot because he was getting the ball out in a second and a half to 2.25 seconds the entire game. So can they rectify that? and because the blitz couldn't get home and that that whole time they need their front four which is something that they have been striving to do since sean mcdermott and brandon bean have been here um can they get that unit to get home at a consistent clip and i don't know the answer to that as we sit here because yeah they did everything conceivably well they brought in joey bosa who they're trying to see if he can moonlight and have one more great year uh they re-signed Greg Rousseau, hoping that he's going to hit his ceiling.

38:43And Oliver is still here, who, when he wants to be, is one of the better three-tech defensive tackles. But the pass rush consistency for him wanes a bit. TJ Sanders, who they brought in, who they love, who might chip in on third downs. What is he going to do? They brought in Michael Hoyt. There's just a lot of guys that they brought in.

38:59Robert Mays: There's so many different things to work through when it comes to deployment. How are they going to play those guys together? Who plays which role? And again, maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe the collective result from that group is more than the sum of its parts. And we stopped thinking about it, but there's so many question marks when it comes to how that group is going to unfold. Yeah. And then when you couple that with some questions about the secondary too, I mean, Maxwell Hairston suffered a, uh, an LCL sprain and he is going to be out for the foreseeable future. First round pick a cornerback.

39:27First round pick. And he was in a competition with Tredavious White. I still think that Tredavious White probably would have won that job if Hairston remained healthy because I don't think Hairston was ready just yet. But now he's missing all these reps. Sean McDermott talked about it today to the point where they went through the situation last year with Cole Bishop, who they thought was probably going to be their safety. He misses all of camp with an injury, and it winds up being DeMar Hamlin and Taylor Repp the entirety of the season. So now Hairston, you have that question mark because Tredavious White has seen better days, even though he was a great starter for here for years.

39:58Robert Mays: That was my question. Should we be worried about that? If Tredavious White is going to be the starting corner on the outside, this is a Rams team that needed corners last year, cut him in the middle of the season, and then he's a depth piece in Baltimore. Going into week one, I know he has been a great player here. He understands the system. There's a chance we'll see a better version of him. But if I were a Bills fan, despite all of the warm memories, that would leave me feeling a little bit uneasy right now. Yeah, there's a heartwarming story in there, but I would caution Bills fans listening to this.

40:27This is not the same Tredavious White that was the long-term starter for them for a long time. I think for them, the best way for them to get the most out of Shredavious White is just possibly to have Christian Benford travel with whoever the if they if the other team has a top receiver because Benford looks great right now. And if they have a plus season on the back end, it's because of Christian Benford. It's because of Taron Johnson, the nickel corner at safety. They would like to see Cole Bishop take a jump because he's going to be their starter next to Taylor Rapp. Tamar Hamlin is no longer a thing in the starting lineup as long as Bishop is healthy.

41:06So can they hide Tredavious White? And the big question is, can they take enough off of Tredavious White's plate and the safety's plate from the pass rush? So it's like, OK, one of these have to give here for them to hit their optimal. And will it happen? I don't know. We might see this potentially being a shootout team because maybe the defense isn't as good as what they needed to be on the back end. but I do think the, if Benford hits the way that I think he's going to this year, it could answer a lot of those questions.

41:37Robert Mays: I'll be interested to see what layers they add schematically on defense, because I think a lot of these four down teams, and this has been a conversation that's come up a lot in the last two weeks as I've talked to offensive and defensive coaches, these four down teams and an offensive coach said this term to me. And I thought it was great when he was talking about the Niner system, specifically these four down rushes. And he's like, well, when you have a bunch of creatures up there, you can get by when you have fewer, creatures, you start to see the holes in it. And even when you have really good players, I think these teams where we know what sort of front they're going to be in, it's easy to attack them.

42:09Robert Mays: You know exactly how that plan needs to look. And I think some of those teams, even though they have that DNA, are going to be drifting to a place where there's going to be more front variation just to be a little bit less predictable. I don't think this team is going to do a lot of that. I don't think this team is going to play a lot more man coverage. I think the two layers that I see are on third down, do we have more flexible pieces when it comes to simulated pressures. Michael Hoyt is somebody who's dropped back in coverage a lot. Are we going to see a more dynamic version of that side of the defense?

42:35Robert Mays: And then two, disguise and coverage. They've done a great job of that over the last couple of years. But it feels like those are the wrinkles that they're going to be leaning into more rather than some of the other wrinkles I think some of these four down teams are thinking about at this point in the process. Yeah, definitely. And I do think it will benefit them to have a defensive coordinator in Bobby Babich be in his second year in play calling because he's got more of a feel for it. And I think he's a really bright guy. I said it to you during practice. I think he's got head coach potential if they hit on defense just because he has that personality.

43:03But it's a big if because you have all of these moving pieces, all of these new parts. What is going to stick for this team? What is their defensive identity going to be? Because it used to be the starting safeties and Matt Milano. That was their identity, even throughout the years where they had some modicum of pass rush. But Milano is getting older. instincts are still great but he is a quarter steps lower than he used to be um is is that what they have currently going to be enough to help the offense the way that they need it to because we're sitting here looking at what the bills have done in these playoffs it hasn't been

43:43Robert Mays: josh allen that's let them the defense has been what's consistently let them every time in the year well and what we have in this conversation again i'm sure as we get to january and how this is ultimately going to look because this is a team that, again, until we get there, until what the playoffs look like, some of this is moot, you know, and that's kind of where we are with the Buffalo Bills. Joe Biscaglia, always appreciate the time, sir. Great to chat with you. We'll do it again very soon. See you as well. Thanks, Robert. With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases.

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45:04Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Steelers writer here at The Athletic, Mike DeFabo. Mike, great to see you. Hey, great to be with you here. I appreciate you doing this. This is the first time we've done this together because you were not covering the team the last time I did these, correct? Yeah, this is our first official podcast. So let's set the bar pretty high here. I am already a little bit worried that I'm going to let you down. I feel like I'm running on fumes at this point. Obviously a fascinating team, right? I mean, whenever you bring Aaron Rogers into the fold with a team that we know that is established, that is fairly in the mix to be in the playoffs every single year, there's plenty to talk about here.

45:37Robert Mays: You're just initial impressions based on what you've seen and also what they've said about what this marriage is potentially looking like between what Aaron Rodgers wants to do and what Arthur Smith wants to do. Well, when you look at Aaron Rodgers at this stage of his career, I think we have to acknowledge that he's at least somewhat a different quarterback physically. But the things that he still has is that quick release. That's been a trademark of his game. And you saw today you were at practice. He rifled a ball up the seam that literally hit Connor Hayward in the face mask before he turned around.

46:09And so like there are going to be ways that they have to work around um you know rogers at this stage but one thing that i think is going to marry very well is that quick release with a guy like dk metcalf who can win with slants he can win with a whip route which you saw today he can win with quick out routes and so i think that they're going to kind of have the game plan that a lot of teams have used with veteran quarterbacks which is let's get the ball out of his hands quickly and the pass rush can't get to him and we don't have to worry about him launching the ball downfield if he gets it out of his hand quickly.

46:43And so I think that's going to be a big part of the game plan going forward. But then you look at the other side of DK Metcalf and he has been a great deep threat throughout his career. And my big question there is how much more mobile is Aaron Rogers going to be now that he's further removed from that Achilles injury? You know, he actually looks fairly decent, I think, moving around for a soon to be 42 year old guy coming off of an injury not too long ago, but he used that mobility so much earlier in his career to extend plays, create outside of structure. That's the part of the game that I'm interested to see how much of that comes back now that he's further removed from injury.

47:19Robert Mays: I think there's plenty of aspects of DK Metcalf's game. Like you mentioned, the slants, the quick game stuff, even the one-on-one deep balls. Like Roger Stone wanted to push the ball downfield last year when he thought he had matchup advantages. There's a lot of slot fades to guys like Devontae Adams, but that is still a part of his game. And I think that part of it tracks with DK Metcalf. He had a touchdown today on a sluggo in the red zone. Like he's going to pick on those one on one matchups when he thinks DK Metcalf has an advantage. I have no doubt about that. My questions come about the layers of the passing game as we move past that.

47:48Robert Mays: So on just like a very simple level, what do you think is the best collection of pass catchers personnel wise that this team has right now? And how do you think that they would be deployed? Well, we know that Arthur Smith loves the tight end. You can say that again. he coached tight ends in Tennessee including Johnny Smith he then featured the tight ends as an offensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans moved over and became possibly the most tight end friendly head coach when he was in Atlanta again coach Johnny Smith and he's brought that philosophy here to Pittsburgh if you look at last season the Steelers led the league in 13 personnel usage and if anything I think they're only going to lean into that tight end position even more So during camp, we saw an O four personnel package, which was three true tight ends, I guess.

48:36Then Johnny Smith was lined up in the backfield. And so, you know, Johnny, Johnny Smith is kind of in a sense, I think that de facto number two weapon for Aaron Rodgers. And you're going to see him use kind of like a wild card within this offense. We've seen him, like I mentioned in the backfield, traditional position in line as a tight end. You've seen him as one, two, three wide receiver split out wide. So I think they're really going to use Johnny a lot. Not to mention Pat Fryermuth is a very good zone beating tight end. He has a really good feel for how to beat those coverages. And then they've got Darnell Washington, who's the six foot seven monster of a man.

49:14Robert Mays: Every time I see him on the sideline, I'm shocked. Every single year, I'm like, I can't believe that's a person. Well, one of my favorite things about the Steelers roster is he's listed at 264. And that was his combine weight, I think. but it's like this unspoken thing that anytime a coach or a player lets it slip slip out that he's over 300 pounds they're like whoops like it's like a state secret that you can't let anybody know that darnell's actually that big but even though he's you know a massive human being he has been effective in the passing game and i think especially near the red zone if the steelers use him to create mismatches which they did at least once last year for his lone touchdown you know he's an option, but you know, I've talked about tight ends.

49:56I haven't talked about wide receivers. And I think that that's the big question mark for this team is dating back to last year when they traded away Deontay Johnson, the question has been who is the number two wide receiver. And here we are with a different number one and more than a year later. And we're still kind of asking that question with Calvin Austin and Roman Wilson being the two main contenders. And so, I mean, that's the, that's one of my biggest question marks with this team is if teams are taking away the slant. They're trying to defend DK, double him, put a lot of pressure on him.

50:28Is there going to be another consistent receiving threat that Aaron Rogers can go to?

50:32Robert Mays: It's a huge question. And I think both Calvin Austin and Roman Wilson, different skill sets, right? Calvin Austin is more of a vertical player, but Roman Wilson was a slot player. We thought coming out Calvin Austin, I think is best deployed as kind of a vertical slot player. So if you're going to live in 12 personnel, well, one guy's going to need to play outside. And so there's a lingering question about that. And even getting to the tight ends, you look at John Smith and Pat Frymuth, both are kind of like F tight ends, right? They're more move type players. Pat Frymuth can play in line, but he isn't a big hulking guy.

51:01Robert Mays: Like you said, he's like a zone beater who's really savvy as a pass catcher. And John Smith is more of a pass catcher. Their skill sets are different and arguably complimentary, but this brings me back to a conversation we've been having about Arthur Smith for legitimately years. Yeah, it's kind of weird, your personnel, and it's interesting, but does it make sense? Is there a version of this offense that can go beyond a strange curiosity and all of these pieces that feel like an island of misfit toys in a way actually fit together? And I think that really remains to be seen. Right. I mean, so in theory, you put a lot of tight ends on the field and you say, we're a big physical football team.

51:41We can bully you with those tight ends. But if you go and you look at the efficiency metrics and just something, something simple like yards per carry, actually every time that they added a tight end, they became less efficient running the ball and less efficient overall. So it sounds really cool to say, Hey, you've got Dornell Washington and he's six foot seven, 300 pounds, and he can line up in line, or you can motion him out. And he's going to be a huge mismatch against a defensive back. that's cool to say but it doesn't always translate to actual production on the field and there have been times where i've sat here and thought like okay yeah it's cool to have johnny smith and fryer mooth and connor hayward and donna washington on the field together but what if half those guys were just wide receivers and and instead of trying to trick the defense and get them into some personnel grouping that you don't that they don't feel comfortable covering you what if you just said we're going to send three wide receivers out there and they're going to be in nickel and we're going to beat them anyway.

52:36You know, I think that there's something to be said for that. And that's something that I'm curious to see how things evolve as the season continues, because like as much as they want to lean into the tight end, can those tight ends actually win their one-on-one matchups in the passing game to, to be a consistent receiving offense as we get into, okay, if we have

52:55Robert Mays: this personnel grouping, how is the defense going to match us? Let's just use an example. Let's say you're in 12 personnel with Johnny and Pratt Firemeath on the field together. Teams are likely going to match you in nickel grouping because of what we talked about with their skill sets. And I think it's just becoming more prevalent in the league. More teams are playing nickel to 12 personnel. The response to that is, well, we have to be able to run the ball now if they're in nickel personnel. And I think every single little circuitous conversation you have about this offense will lead you back to the offensive line needs to be great.

53:23Robert Mays: The offensive line needs to be great. They the draft capital they've used and just the bets they've made with their identity on that side of the ball. if that group doesn't come together the rest of this doesn't matter it's kind of a non-starter and so now we have a couple guys in new spots this year right Roger Jones is moving back to the left side after playing on the right side last year because Dan Moore was a left tackle only right you have Zach Frazier and Mason McCormick who was thrust into action last year right guard he's going to be coming back and then Troy Fontenot who played one game last year is now your right tackle we got a lot of first round picks in there we got second round picks in there We got a guy in Salmo who has been paid as you've watched that group that is supposed to be the strength of this offense.

54:01Robert Mays: How do you think that's going to transition from being a theory to something that is actually realized when the game start going? I think we need to see it. And the biggest question mark is Broderick Jones, because, you know, they have taken an interesting approach with him where they played him at first at right tackle. And then the plan last year was at some uncertain point he was going to shift over to left. So he was taking reps in practice at both. and I think he kind of got in his head about it. So he came into training camp 20 pounds lighter and that's something that he did on his own. And I think that that's really important because when he was coming out in the draft, he'd only 19 college starts.

54:36And you looked at him and the reason why he went in the first round and the reason Steelers traded up for him is because he ran the fastest 40 of any offensive lineman. The skills are very mobile, right? So you had this ball of clay that you then had to mold and develop into a legitimate tackle who could be a, you know, first round caliber offensive tackle. And so like if he is able to play up to his draft position this year, that would be massive for the Steelers. On the flip side, if he struggles, like you've got a 41 year old quarterback who's lost at least some of his mobility last year, Aaron Rodgers, at least according to EPA per play was the worst quarterback in the league with a minimum 300 temps against the blitz.

55:23So that was a problem for them and for him. And and so like if you can't protect Aaron Rodgers and if you can't run the ball effectively, then this whole notion of, well, Aaron Rodgers isn't what he is, but they don't need him to be. That whole argument falls apart if you're not running the ball effectively and if you're not protecting the quarterback.

55:41Robert Mays: There's no doubt. And I think in talking to some coaches today, you know, the argument for why this group can gel and maybe why we'll see a different version of Raj Jones, for example. I think he's a little bit more confident, a little bit more mature. That was something that they really had to work through over the last couple of years, just like his approach to things and just where he was mentally. And I think he feels a little bit more settled. And they think that him playing next to Isaac Salomalu instead of next to a fourth round rookie like last year is going to be a settling factor for him.

56:09Robert Mays: Good in theory. Let's see if it works out. And then Fatenu, the line that I heard today was he is who we thought he was going to be. We're very happy with where he's at. Talking to Pat Meyer, their offensive line coach today about him going against TJ Watt every single day and they don't give him help. There's no scheming protections against TJ Watt training camp. He's taken to that well. There are some guys who would just drown if you put them in that situation and that hasn't happened. They're saying all the right things about the development curves for each of these guys, but I just keep coming back to this.

56:40Robert Mays: They're supposed to be this team that is rooted in the ground game that can grind people down. And they were a below average rushing offense last year. And I just still need to see it. Right. Yeah. I mean, to your point, they ran the ball fourth most in the NFL last year, but I believe only six teams ran it less efficient as efficient, you know. And so there's a big difference between running the ball a lot and running it well. And the Steelers simply ran the ball a lot last year. So if you're looking for reasons for optimism, why could this offense take the next step in terms of the running game?

57:15Well, these guys are a year older, as you mentioned. Broderick Jones is in his more natural position. Troy Fouton, who basically is like a new another extra first round pick because he lost his whole rookie season. And then we haven't even gotten to the running backs. And I think Caleb Johnson could eventually be a significant part of this puzzle. Now, right now they have him buried his third on the depth chart. That's a classic Tomlin move. Make the rookie earn his stripes. But you look at what he did at Iowa. Fantastic outside zone runner has a really good feel for those runs in terms of the patience and the vision and setting up blocks.

57:52So he really schematically fits like a glove for what Arthur Smith is looking for. No doubt. And so if this offense is going to be the best that it can be and we're going to see growth from the offense, you really are counting on the offensive line growing in the ground game, providing that support for Aaron Rogers, where he won't feel like he needs to throw it the second most times the NFL, like he did last year, that they can lean on the running game, lean on play action, you know, get it to tight ends, play action and throw it deep to DK. I think that's what they want to do. And it all depends on how this offensive line performs.

58:28Robert Mays: It's obviously at this point, we're trying to pick up on who's with the first team, who might get some run, especially the skill position players. This team is harder to do because of the way that they treat rookies. It seems like we're going to get to a place as we get toward the season where Caleb Johnson is kind of the early down innings eater as that outside zone runner in this offense. And then you have Jalen Warren and Kenny Gainwell's kind of change of pace players. Would you say that's a fair representation? Yeah, I mean, I'm really interested to see how it plays out because, you know, Jalen Warren in Pittsburgh.

58:57There was a whole conversation about Jalen Warren versus Najee Harris, because every time Jalen would get an opportunity, he would maximize. it. And you just looked at like yards per carry. He was way above nausea. But the thing was, he had a lot of his carries on third down lighter boxes running out of the shotgun. And so you look at him and he's a smaller stature kind of guy. He's about five foot nine, five foot 10. And can a back like that really carry the load for an offense that wants to run the ball as much as they do? So, you know, I, I honestly don't know who's going to end up stepping up and being that number one back.

59:32But my guess is by the end of the season, it's going to be kind of like what you're talking about, where Caleb Johnson does start taking on that bell cow role. He does start getting the majority of carries on early running downs. And then Jalen Warren, he's fantastic in pass protection. He probably wouldn't even be on the team had it not been for Mike Tomlin's backs on backers drill when Jalen was just an undrafted rookie. So, I mean, that's, that's his thing. But so these, these running backs, a lot of them have something to prove. They've got some interesting pieces. We didn't even mention Kenneth Gainwell, who's been used kind of like as a as a wild card in Arthur Smith's deck here.

1:00:07They split him out wide. They throw the ball out of the backfield. He's actually has a pretty good feel for outside zone runs as well. So I think it could kind of be a by committee approach. And then they just kind of let it play out and see which guy emerges as their lead back.

1:00:20Robert Mays: I'm just excited about the 31 personnel that we're going to see at some point this year when all three of them get on the field together. You got to. Yeah, got to throw the defense off guard. Let's get to the other side of the ball. The front to me, again, if we're this team is going to be built and go as the trenches go on both sides of the ball on offense. We just talked about that on defense. That's where the best players on this defense are. For the most part, that's where a ton of investment has happened. I love Derek Harmon coming in. I've talked about it a million times over the last six months.

1:00:46Robert Mays: So now you're dropping Derek Harmon next to Cam Hayward, TJ Watt, Alex Highsmith, who's hurt right now. Keanu Benton. I mean, this is a group that at its best should be able to control games and dictate how they go. You move a little bit backward. The linebackers are talented, but a little volatile, I guess is what I would say. And then the back end to me is fascinating. Very fascinating. Jalen Ramsey now coming in and talking to people today about all the different roles he's going to play. As you think about the secondary specifically and what those five spots look like, what is the best version of this defensive backfield in your mind?

1:01:20Well, it was interesting the way that the trade unfolded, because the first piece that came out was Jalen Ramsey announcing that he had been traded to the Pittsburgh Steelers. and you're thinking, oh, wow, that's going to be a pretty complete secondary. Drop him in the nickel. Let's roll.

1:01:32Robert Mays: We got Minka, Jalen, Darius Slay, Joey Porter. Let's go. And then when you find out, wait, Minka is a part of this trade, you're trying to figure out how are all these pieces going to fit together. And so to streamline it, the bottom line here, the biggest bullet point is I think that Jalen Ramsey's primary position this year is going to be as the nickel. And you look at how much teams we just talked about how they play. A lot of teams play nickel against 12. You know, I think that the Steelers, that's going to be their primary personnel package. And you look at like Steelers fans were freaking out, saying, how are they going to fit all three?

1:02:06Slay, Joey Porter Jr. and Jalen Ramsey. But like, let's use an example of the AFC North. When they play the Bengals, they're going to be in their base defense. Only five plays a game. Five to seven is what they were the two games last season. It's not even an issue. You like slay or a Ramsey is just simply going to play in the nickel and then you can move them around if you want to. And the Steelers feel like because of that, they can play man-to-man coverage against anybody. And that is Mike Tomlin's preferred form of defense. You know, that their basic call, the classic Steelers defense is dog rush one, where it's five guys rushing and man coverage behind it.

1:02:46That's going to be a big part of what they do this season. but with them when they go into different personnel packages that's where you're going to see like when they go to base we have seen Ramsey move to free safety and then there have been times when Ramsey also plays on the outside because he is such a good man-to-man guy he has that kind of makeup where he wants the opponent's best weapon and he has been able to shut them down previously in his career. So I think you've got options there. And I think it's going to depend upon what package they're in. It's going to depend on what the opponent is, how their top receiver is doing against Joey Porter Jr.

1:03:26and Slay. But like they want to use him in a variety of roles. And I think that they will. I think so, too.

1:03:31Robert Mays: And I think him in the nickel was his primary role. I think that's what he's going to play. And this isn't some farfetched idea. This is what he did in L.A. Like we've seen him do this earlier in his career. We know he can do it. And the benefit it to him is you have these teams that are having this conversation about, all right, what is our nickel defense personnel look like? And do we need a third safety to play some big nickel against some of these 12 personnel teams where we don't leave ourselves exposed in the passing game, but he could hold up in the run game. That's the thing about Jalen Ramsey.

1:03:59Robert Mays: He's not some prima donna like cover corner. He can hold up. He's physical. He's a good tackler. He solves a lot of problems for you in that way. And then the move for him at safety and base defense, We haven't seen him do that. But again, he brings a certain level of physicality where I think he can take that on in a way maybe other slot corners, quote unquote, might not be able to. Right. Exactly. Speaking to your last point, when Patrick Peterson was here, he tried briefly to transition to safety and admitted himself. The big question is, am I going to be able to get that guy down? That's not even a question with Jalen Ramsey.

1:04:32That's one of his strengths. and so like the Steelers actually they they have leaned into the big nickel a lot previously with three safeties on the field together and they get creative with that nickel position so um you know in some instances you might see him be the middle runner in in a cover two you might see him as a deep half kind of player you know you might see him man-to-man coverage on a tight end um and then the other part of it is the Steelers after not blitzing a lot the last couple years I think you're going to see a return of blitzberg interesting with the steelers and nickel pressures i think are going to be a big part of that equation and you've seen a little bit of a cat and mouse game between ramsey and aaron rogers in training camp where there was one rep in particular stands out where ramsey kind of bluffed like he was blitzing dropped back and rogers had nowhere to go with the football and so it's been kind of fun to see and i think that's going to continue to develop.

1:05:28The other benefit is like a lot of times, like, let's say that, uh, Ramsey's coming on a blitz and he's on TJ Watt side. And then they've got Derek Harmon on the other side of what that's going to free up one of those three guys. And I think that Watt is going to reap the rewards of some of these personnel changes and some of these schematic changes, because there was a lot of talk last year about him kind of tailing off at the end of the year. And I think a lot of that has to do with if teams know exactly where he is, they can double them. They can chip him. Um, and there've been times where he's getting hit by a tackle, a tight end and a running back on the same play.

1:06:05Now, if you've got Derek Harmon who led college football, interior defensive lineman with 55 pressures last year, providing that upfield push you've got on the other side, Ramsey coming on a nickel pressure. One of those three guys is going to get home and you're going to be getting pressure in some form or fashion.

1:06:21Robert Mays: I have two philosophical questions I wanted to ask you. The Minka and Jalen swap going from valuing in terms of how you're paying a guy to a nickel corner over the free safety. Have you talked to anybody just about why they felt like this was the best version of how to deploy those resources and kind of flipping those two things in the priority on the defense? Right. So, you know, it's interesting because in Pittsburgh, you know, nation and more national perspective, people look at Minka Fitzpatrick and they say all pro one of the best safeties in the league. He's still, I believe the third highest paid safety.

1:06:54And at one time he was the highest paid safety in the league, but here in Pittsburgh, people were kind of like, well, for all of that money, he had one interception in two years. And if you're going to be paying a free safety, all that money, you're paying him to see into the future. You're looking for him to anticipate plays and get the ball back. and that's the Steelers defense in a nutshell. They were tied for the league lead with turnovers last year. They're all about splash. And I think Mike Tomlin may have even coined the term splash and it's spread throughout the entire league. And so, you know, rather than paying somebody to stand in the middle of the field and be a quote unquote deterrent, why not put your money, somebody closer to the line of scrimmage who maybe is going to be defending T.

1:07:40Higgins or Jamar Chase head to head or he's going to help you against those Baltimore tight ends that gave you so much problems last year, or he's going to come on a blitz and give you some pressure for a team that their sack numbers have dropped the last couple of years. So I think if I were building a team, I think it makes a lot of sense to say, we're going to spend our money on somebody who's going to be head to head against one of these receivers, not a guy sitting in the middle field as a deterrent. And in turn, you look at this defense that's full of all pros, pro bowlers. they're the highest paid defense by a large margin.

1:08:14Crazy. The only one question mark right now is at free safety. Yeah. And right now it's one Thornhill and any Browns fan listening to this is probably punching their phone or their radio or whatever they're listening to this on because Browns fans really did not like one Thornhill. And I've had commenters say for two years, he was invisible. Well, if he's invisible on this defense, he's doing a hell of a job thing. Yeah. That's a fantastic thing. And so rather than having Minka be that, you're sitting in the middle of the field, you're the deterrent. Now, if you've got Juan Thornhill doing that, to me, that's a decent swap, and it seems to make sense philosophically.

1:08:54Robert Mays: When you had Minka Fitzpatrick, I think you were incentivized to play a little bit more single high in order to allow him to be that free safety and potentially try to take the ball away. And if you look at this defense, as much single high coverage as any team in the league, it was three and it was man, with a couple cover two change-ups thrown in on third down, And that was the Pittsburgh Steelers. If you're going to be a little cheaper at safety, you're going to try to hide those guys. Do you think we see somewhat of a philosophical change with what coverage menu we see from this team based on its current personnel?

1:09:22I think you are going to see some changes. And I think that you're going to see the Steelers operate out of a too high shell a little bit more than what they did previously. And I think you're going to see more cover for we've seen it here in training camp and Latrobe. and it makes sense because you know when you're playing cover for a lot of times with the match concepts it almost turns into man in a lot of senses so mike tomlin talks about how we feel like we can match up one-on-one man-to-man against anybody you know that's kind of kind of part of the quarters universe there with what they're doing so i think you are going to see like this team has made personnel changes.

1:10:02They brought in Jared Alexander as their defensive backs coaches. This guy is very hands-on, very vocal. And then in addition, I think you're going to see some schematic changes with a little more cover for, and a little bit more blessing. All right.

1:10:18Robert Mays: Mike DeFabo. Great to chat with you, sir. Sincerely appreciate the time. Really appreciate all the insight. We'll do it again soon. Yeah, absolutely. Come back to Latrobe anytime you want. I love it here. I'm very familiar with this process. I record in the same room for the last few years. I know exactly where I'm supposed to go. It feels like it's a little football vacation when you come down here every single year and I never mind taking it. Yeah, it's wild. People here love football and pack the stand. So it always is good to talk some football here in Latrobe. Talk to you later, man. All right, guys, that's all we got.

1:10:50Robert Mays: Thank you so much to Joe. Thank you so much to Mike. We will be back with three more Beat Writer discussions tomorrow. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon.

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