TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Lions, Chargers and Cowboys beat writers

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2:03Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. Our beat writer notebooks are back this summer. We've done these in the past. I always enjoy doing them. Obviously at the athletic, we have a huge pool of writers who cover these teams day to day. And as I travel around the country for training camp, it's just great to check in with them and take the pulse of where these teams are. I'm in Los Angeles today. This is Friday. I'll be covering the Rams, be with the Rams tomorrow. I'll be in Seattle with the Seahawks. So we're going to be doing about 20 or so of these. I think that's about how many writers we have at the stops we're going to make.

2:37Robert Mays: We're going to be releasing them on Saturdays over the next month or so. Really looking forward to all of those discussions. Just insight. You're really not going to be able to get in a bunch of places. We asked the big questions. Why is Micah Parsons unsigned? What's going on with the Lions coordinator changes? And that's what we're going to be doing over the next month or so. The first three of these are three of my first stops on the training camp tour, kicking it off with our Lions writer, Colton Pouncey. Really enjoyed talking to Colton about a Lions team very much in transition. Then we're in San Diego where the Chargers were having camp for a couple of days with our Chargers writer, Daniel Popper, who just does a fantastic job covering that team.

3:14Robert Mays: I love watching Daniel work. Chargers fans are so lucky having somebody as engaged and curious as he is covering that team day to day. And then we rounded it out with a trip to Oxnard, California to chat with our Cowboys writer, John Machoda, about the Brian Schottenheimer era, what's going on with Micah Parsons, and what are some reasonable expectations for this Dallas Cowboys team in 2025. So let's get to it right now.

3:44Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our first Be Writer conversation of the offseason. Our first stop on the training camp travels. It's our Lions writer, Colton Ponce. Colton, how you doing, man? I'm great. I'm honored to be the first. Thank you for making me for this. I know it's all me and no one else, not the team or anything, so I appreciate it. I appreciate the Lions getting started early because Detroit is weirdly inconvenient to get to on the training camp tour because it's only close to Cleveland. You'd think it's close to Chicago. It's like a five-hour drive. And so it's always like a little bit further than I want it to be.

4:14Robert Mays: So having an excuse to come here first and then fly somewhere else, it's worked out very, very well. It's also a very exciting, intriguing team. So that also helps. And the weather was nice today. Yes. The fact that we are one day in and I didn't sweat through all my clothes is a huge win. So things are pointed up in the right direction for me. We're going to get into actual Lions talk on this show, but we're going to start with the biggest point of contention from day one of Lions practice. And that is Jameer Gibbs's switch from 26 to zero. You are supportive of this, which I find to be a completely indefensible position.

4:49Robert Mays: Try to maintain, try to defend yourself a little bit here. How is zero better than 26? I will. So here's my thing. Gibbs is a player that just has natural aura, right? He's a small scat back. He's got the speed, the agility. He can make any number look good, right? So when he got here, I think he said there's 26 and that's the numbers in the 30s. Those aren't great. 30s is unacceptable. Exactly. For a player with his speed. And so I think he made 26 look better than it was because I don't think 26 is a great number either. I think guys make 26 better. They give those numbers aura because they have it themselves.

5:25I think Gibbs needed a number that matches his just natural aura. And 26 wasn't cutting it. And even he said, I hated the number 26. like since since my rookie year i hated that number and he's been trying to get one one went to jamo it's like all right that's not going to work what was the next best available it was zero and now he feels that the number zero matches more of his personality his on-field style and i agree with him i think it's a perfect number for him i think zero a lot of people are like oh zero should be like what a linebacker no i don't know what people think zero is a cornerback number i don't know but i think it looks great on a running back as fast as gifts not every running back could handle that number, but I think his natural aura is so strong that he can make it work.

6:06Robert Mays: That's my argument for it. My concern with this is that I like guys who have that sort of burst to be in more vertical numbers, right? I just think that the round number for me, it does fit bigger players. Here are the guys who have been the best players in zero since zero was allowed to be an NFL number only a few years ago. Roquan Smith, Jonathan Cooper, Brian Burns, Byron Young, Yaya Diaby, Christian Gonzalez, Dian Henley, Greg Newsome. It's a lot of corners, defensive backs, and pass rushers. That's where I put it. 26. Clinton Portis wore 26. Le 'Veon Bell wore 26. You can wear 26 and make it work as a running back.

6:46Robert Mays: I think that going to one, fine. If you wanted to go to one, I get that transition. Going to zero just because it's the next best thing, I feel like it's a step down. And I'm a little bit worried about it. I think you shave off like 0.3 seconds off your 40 time going from 26 to 0. Hard to disagree. The only argument I will hear for this is that he is such a special transcendent weapon that it goes beyond the running back considerations here. Like the fact that Gilbert Arenas could make 0 look as good as Gilbert Arenas did, and he had a very specific play style. I'm willing to hear that argument, but I'm a little bit worried about it still.

7:22So I love 0 because that number wasn't allowed to be worn for so many years. And now, to me, that has aura. That's why it has aura. And you give that number to a player like Gibbs that has aura, and you match that level. That's why I think it's great.

7:35Robert Mays: He can make any number look good. I think the best argument for this is because no one else has really asserted themselves, outside of Roquan Smith, there's no zero on the offensive side of the ball that's been like, all right, this is the guy I attach to zero. The only guy who's really done okay on offense with zero is Calvin Ridley. And even that, I would say he's having to overcome the number in order to put up the production that he is. The last point I'll make about running backs in zero. Do you know who the other prominent running back in the NFL is to wear zero? I don't. It's DeAndre Swift.

8:05Robert Mays: Do you want to be in that club? I mean, no. I feel like I'm really stacking up arguments here. I feel good about it. But Gibbs has a chance to make zero a thing. If he looks good in that number, which I think he will. I think anyone reasonably could agree. every player in football is going to want that number. It's going to be the number one jersey sale. And again, I think it's because Gibbs matches that. That's my whole take for it. The ability to carve out a history and a certain vibe around zero, I think that's a good thing. I will say, one of the only reasons I'm not genuinely worried about this or from a pure vibes check perspective is that I saw Tate Ratledge walking off the field.

8:44Robert Mays: And just the overall dirtbag aesthetic that he's bringing to the table, If we're like trying to do like the the if we're doing a ledger of vibes. I feel like that can overcome the Gibbs downgrade to the point where the offense isn't saffed overall. Yeah. When you got a guy like Gibbs wearing zero, a great number, which I think running behind number 69 with a mullet. I mean, yeah, it's going to make anyone look better. I get it. I get it. Let's actually have some real serious big picture lions talk here. This team spent the last couple of years asserting itself as really the model rebuild in the NFL.

9:16Robert Mays: If you look at the tangible steps they took from a three-win team or whatever it was in year one, it doesn't matter, to a competitive team, to a team that was a handful of plays away from going to the Super Bowl two years ago, to the best team in the NFC for a majority of last year, obviously, they haven't had the championship success that some of these other franchises have. But if you're talking about the model teams, the teams you want to be like, I think the Lions have absolutely pushed themselves into that discussion. Roster talent, the way they've built the coaching staff, so many things are emulatable about them.

9:48Robert Mays: The challenge now is after you asserted yourself as one of those teams, can you maintain being one of those teams? That's what the other class franchises in the league have done. And if the Lions want to be that, that's what they now have to do. There are obviously a huge set of challenges to doing that this year. You have roster turnover. You have coaching staff turnover. That's the phase that we're in now. As you think about how the Lions go from being a team that was an upstart to being one of those mainstay franchises in the league, what are the specific challenges right now that come to mind for you first?

10:21Yeah. They've gotten, as you mentioned, better and better each year. Their incremental growth has been nothing short of impressive. It doesn't always go like this. No. It very rarely goes like this. To go from 3-13-1 to 9-8, that was my first year covering this team and I saw the growth, right? They won their final 10 games. And a lot of people were excited to go into that next season. They go 12 and five, make it all the way to the NFC championship. And then the next season they go 15 and two. And like the injuries were kind of a damper on the, on the end of the season, but like that, they got better in that third year, I guess, or fourth year under Dan Campbell last year.

10:51And this year is kind of a mystery because you're losing some of that continuity that made you so good. The guys that were there from the very beginning and Ben Johnson and Aaron Glenn, some of the assistants that have been around. So you're losing that side of it. And then your schedule is a little bit tougher. You also got like Frank Ragnow, who's been a rock and anchor for this offensive line. There are some challenges. Right. And it's like, I don't know how realistic it is to expect them to go 15 into this year. But to me, it's like it's almost like the regular season. I don't say it doesn't matter, but it's not as important.

11:20I think just, you know, they're so beat up at the end season. It's hard to really like evaluate where they were last year and say that's who this team will be going forward. But if they're healthier and say they win 10 games, I think they'd take that. Just get into the dance, as Campbell said today. Get into the dance, get into the tournament with a healthier roster. And these guys are as confident as any team you'll find in the NFL at full strength. So there will be some challenges this year. But I think it's just like getting through the regular season and trying to make a deeper run this year.

11:48That's probably the focus for this group where they are now in year five.

11:51Robert Mays: It's an interesting set of challenges because if you look at the teams who I think have done a really good job. And I kind of think about it as each team has these specific eras that they're in. And Baltimore is always a team that comes to mind because they've had such specific turnover. Right. So you're this defense heavy team in that, you know, 2010, 2011 run when you still have Reed and Lewis and Suggs. You know, Flacco has that big run. But for the most part, you have this defensive identity. And then you kind of get through the middle ground of that 2013 or 2017 run. And then you move on to Lamar and you change your offensive identity.

12:22Robert Mays: And now you become this kind of offense centric team. And they've done a good job of moving on from different coordinators at the right time to find the right identity. And then a team like Buffalo, for example, they have an elite quarterback. So even if they've had a defensive minded head coach or a CEO type of head coach had to cycle through offensive coordinators, you still have Josh Allen at the center of that. Teams like Seattle, they didn't really have a lot of brain drain on the offensive side of the ball when they were a mainstay team for a while. The Patriots, we had different eras of the Patriots, but Josh McDaniels was there for most of it.

12:51Robert Mays: Tom Brady was there for all of it. The Lions are in this interesting spot where they don't have one of the best three or four quarterbacks in the league, even if you like Jared. And now you're having to deal with the coordinator turnover. So it's hard for me to find a truly analogous situation to this for teams that have tried to maintain this level of success. I think it's probably what I would say about Baltimore in the Flacco years, even though I think Jared's probably a little bit better than that. But even then, it was more of a defense first league. So as we've kind of come into the modern era, I just don't know who to compare them to at this stage of the trajectory as a franchise.

13:27Yeah, it's like you're trying to find the constant, the thing that can keep you going through, you know, turnover and whatnot. And I think we're about to find out if we can do it. That's it's a big opportunity for Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes. And I think if you're pointing to something right now, it's those two guys. It's like it's the roster, the strength of it put together by Brad and his team. it's Campbell being able to replenish the offensive coaching talent the defensive side with these assistants that he trusts he always says it's more important to get the right guy not the top guy on the market right so it's like for him these coordinators are everything he's about Calvin Shepard's been on staff for a couple years now has learned under Aaron Glenn I don't think the defense is going to change too much you know he's going to put his fingerprints on it obviously but they want to keep things the same play a lot of heavy man coverage you know have these cornerbacks in the wide receiver spaces and then blitz a ton.

14:12And then offensively, like John Morton, that's a guy Campbell's known for years. He trusts him. They go back to New Orleans. He was here in 2022 when Ben Johnson was putting the offense together as a senior offensive assistant. So he knows what Dan Campbell likes, what's worked for Jared Goff. So that familiarity, while he's an outsider coming from Denver, he was here for the start of that, essentially. So, you know, again, we're going to find out. But I think if the Lions prove that they can continue and be one of those teams like Baltimore with this sustained success over some turnover, I think that's going to speak to Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell.

14:44That's the job that they do, kind of keeping this group together.

14:47Robert Mays: I think that's a really good thing to point out. And if I'm looking at teams that have kind of been able to sustain success through some coaching changes, where roster talent has been at the center of it, that's the Eagles. The Eagles went through this in 2023. They lose both coordinators. And one of the reasons they were able to come out on the other side of it is they have better players than everybody else. And if you look at the Lions, that's the best argument is that when you look at this roster, obviously there's some turnover at specific spots. And we'll talk about that. But you look at the blue chip type players at some of the most important positions.

15:17Robert Mays: You have an all pro receiver. You have an all pro right guard or right tackle. You have one of the best offensive weapons in the game in the backfield wearing number zero. That's right. You look at defense. Brian Branch is one of the better Nichols. And honestly, I think ascending defensive backs in the entire sport. Aiden Hutchinson was probably going to be the defensive player of the year last year before he gets hurt. And so that being what you kind of hang your head on is that we have built this thing to be a juggernaut. It's a decent place to turn if you can. And I think that's probably their best route here.

15:49Yeah. And, you know, Dan Campbell was asked about, you know, losing both coordinators and just the narratives out there that they're going to take a step back. And he goes, well, that's already been written, right? You guys are writing that story and, you know, we got to deal with it. We got to prove you wrong, essentially. So they know, and I assume behind closed doors, they're thinking, wait, who's still on our roster? We got Jameer Gibbs, who's awesome zero. We got Amaral St. Brown, Jameson Williams, Jared Goff has full control of this offense. Offensive line, we've kind of planned for some of these transitions with our draft.

16:17And defensively, you look at the start of this tenure, it was so offensive focus and Ben Johnson just, you know, let's go out and win 30 to 28 every week. That's really what it was when they were kind of winning games there in the early start of this. now their defense has kind of turned things around. And I know the injuries last year maybe skewed the numbers a little bit, but they were playing some really good football at points last year.

16:36Robert Mays: One of the best defenses in the league when they were healthy. And even after the injury started, I think that they did an incredible job of maintaining that quality of play. With guys off the street. That was incredible coaching last year, I would say. But yeah, you're getting a lot of these guys back. Some of these guys will come back a little bit later in the season. But as Dan said today, reinforcements are coming. So I think defensively, they feel really good. And this is a much more complete team than it was 2022, 2023. So it's like, I think they feel really good about the roster strength as a whole.

17:02And like, I'm sure behind closed doors, they're pointing to that. They're seeing all the stuff that people are writing about them and saying, we still got all these dudes on our roster. That's why we built it, to have multiple bites of the apple.

17:12Robert Mays: Let's start with the coordinators individually. And Calvin Shepard, I talked to him today for the first time. I'd never met him before. And I came away very impressed. And I think that it makes sense to me that he is somebody that Dan had been looking at as a person to groom for this job over the last couple of years. there's a real confidence and presence about him and i can understand him as a younger ish head or younger ish coach being very comfortable and compelling at the front of the room and i think that you need that after moving on from a guy like aaron glenn which i mean you ag is like there are a few personalities more compelling he is very real command and so going to a first-time coordinator having somebody that clearly has that in kelvin is interesting and then i was also really struck just by him kind of going over in his mind from the spring, some of the things, how can I be a little bit better self-scouting than the play calling he was doing in practice?

18:02Robert Mays: There's a real interesting combination of command and self-reflection that I think sets him up well for this job. Absolutely. He's intensely aware of who he is and his strengths, perceived weaknesses. He is one of the most down to earth dudes you'll ever meet in this profession. And he's honest and real and genuine with his players too. And I think that's what they appreciate about him the most. you know, he'll keep it real with all these guys tell you where you stand on the depth chart, what you can do to be better. That's saying back to when he was a linebackers coach. And now I'm very excited to see what he does as defensive coordinator.

18:33Cause I, he's a guy that we always kind of pointed to as the next in line. And we all knew that AG was going to get a job at some point. And when he left this off season, I think everyone's attention turned to Kelvin. And the reason for that is because yeah, he's, he's got a lot of AG qualities. He's intense. He can command a room, but he's also a really smart guy. I think that gets overshadowed by kind of the rah-rah stuff, But this dude knows how to coach. He was great with the linebackers. Those guys developed. They got better. They trusted him each year. So I'm excited to see what he can do commanding his own room defensively now.

19:03And the staff they put together around him, they've got some veterans, some guys that he knows just to kind of help him hit the ground running as a coordinator. Now, one thing I will say about him, you know, he's got a lot more talent to work with than A.G. did when he first got here. And that's I think it goes without saying. But man, like that, that group is stacked. And if they can stay healthy, I think it should be a smooth transition. You know, you never know. You guys see these guys out there. But he's set up for early success, in my opinion. And I think those guys are going to gravitate to him and and listen to him.

19:32Robert Mays: I'll be really interested in what the evolution on defense looks like, because obviously A.G. just wanted to play a ton of man. It's very aggressive. It's very in your face. And this team was better set up to do that and not get picked on because I just think that they taught elements of how to play man coverage as well as any team in the league. Like you watch how they handle every single button and offense should be able to push to make that hard on you. Bunches, stacks, motions and their ability to sift through all of that. They didn't leave themselves vulnerable while playing man in a way a lot of other teams do.

20:01Robert Mays: But then you listen to Kelvin and him talk about some of his influences coaching wise. And he's talking about his time with Steve Spagnuolo and people like that. Luan Arumo. Luan Arumo. That's a very different type of defense, right? There are layers and complexity to that that I think is a little bit different than some of the stuff that the Lions were doing. Their defense was complex when it came down to the details and the rules, but I think the scope of it wasn't necessarily that wide. And I wouldn't be surprised if we saw the scope of it grow a little bit this year. And I think the other thing that jumped out to me is that now you have this defense, back seven specifically, it's all veterans.

20:36Robert Mays: All veterans. You have the only guy who's new to this is a DJ Reed who's been in the league for eight years. And now Terry Narl's going into year two. Brian Branch is going into year three. You have Kirby Joseph on a second contract. Now all the linebackers have been around for multiple years. I think that building in a little bit more scope and breadth and then flexibility, that kind of feels like the next stage of what this defense is going to feel like. Yeah, it's an exciting time. I think because, you know, AG was here for so long and got to implement things with this group specifically and, you know, watch those guys grow up.

21:06they have the stuff down like they know how to play ag style so now i think it's about expanding on that and and taking shep's uh influences from other spots from where he's been as a player um just his influences in coaching because he talked about that with us at the combine a couple months ago just yeah you know obviously ag was a big influence but i i tons of of coaches that i've worked under played for that have taught me a lot of things about the game and i plan on implementing some of that stuff so you know i think you know campbell went with with shep because he knows him because he wants to keep the base kind of similar just because these guys know that.

21:37But I do think that you make a great point. These guys are getting older. They played together for years. There's continuity on that back seven specifically. I think it's cool and a good time to kind of experiment with some of that stuff, especially now, and see what these guys can do. Maybe play more zone, switch it up in occasional football like Spags is known for. I would love to see some of that because I think the one thing with AG, he was going to live or die by man coverage, man. And I respect it about him. But man, like that was that was you knew he wasn't really going to change up too much.

22:04And I'm curious to see if Shep deviates from that a little bit. Yeah.

22:07Robert Mays: And then having a defense that maybe is a little bit more flexible, you can kind of get into those one off game plans. Like I think about Luana Rumo, Steve Spagno in the playoffs specifically. Yes. When you have that level of creativity and you can tailor things, it really does take it up a notch. And the best example for me in my career and watching the league is the 2017 ish Vikings were a team that every single one of those guys, by the time they got to that season had been in the system with Zimmer for three, four or five years. And you just watched how dynamic it was, how many pre-snap pictures they would show you, how it all could change.

22:39Robert Mays: And I think that trying to chase something that maybe isn't to that level, but that's what you're attempting to emulate. That'll be a fun thing to watch with this group specifically. Yeah, 100 percent. There were times where I think A.G. tried to, you know, I guess, advance the defense a little bit at times. And I don't think they were ready a couple of years ago. But I think the groundwork has been laid for Shep to kind of mix and match if he wants to. And with John Morton and listening to Dan talk about maybe why he wanted that to be the choice. I think part of it was John was here in 2022 when they really laid the foundation of what this version of the offense was going to be.

23:12Robert Mays: And so I think trying to tap back into that of like, well, he was here at the Genesis. He knows what the bones of this are supposed to look like. It's interesting. I get wanting to go back to that because essentially, you know, you're not starting at ground zero. But you want somebody that's intimately familiar with what the process looks like when you started building who you wanted to eventually become. Yeah, I think the biggest criteria for Dan when he was searching for an OC was who's a guy that can work well with your golf and who's a guy that knows who we're about. You know, it's easy to bring in like the hot shot up and coming outside OC, probably from the McVeigh tree, Shanahan tree.

23:44But Dan's going to do things differently, what he thinks is best. And so I think going to a guy like John Morton might maybe a little bit unconventional, I guess. He wasn't like a hot name when he was hired for this job. I think some of us thought maybe Tanner Engstrand could could get the promotion. He was passing in coordinator here. Now, Aaron Glenn's OC in New York. When Tanner got passed up and you went you went with Johnny Moe here, it's kind of like, all right, they're trying to get back to their roots, which is when they built this thing in 2022 with Ben. Ground and pound game. Just they were doing it with DJ Chark and Josh Reynolds back then.

24:16Now they have some more talent. I'm curious to see how John unleashes some of those guys, because, you know, one thing he said, you know, it'd be dumb of me to rock the boat too much with an offensive. was number one in the NFL last year. But like, you know, he's going to put his own touches on things. And, you know, it's easy to say, oh, when he was with the Jets in 2017, like that offense wasn't great. He did some solid things with like not a great offensive roster. I think like Bilal Powell was like their leading rusher and like Matt Forte.

24:40Robert Mays: There was not a lot of talent on those teams. There was a reason they were picking third overall back there. A little different here in Detroit now. So, but, you know, he's from Michigan, local kid, older OC. So I think it's kind of like this, you know, if he hits and he does well with this group of players, you could have him for an extended stay. He's not just the young guy that's trying to look for the next job or jump to the next job. You could keep him here realistically for maybe a few years, and maybe he gets the opportunity down the road, maybe he doesn't. And then you just have a long-term OC, which I think is a valuable thing for a coach like Dan Campbell, who's more the CEO type, leader of men.

25:13I think that can offer some stability if it works out. So I'm curious to see how he does this year. But again, he's got tons of talent to work with.

25:20Robert Mays: So we were talking at practice today just about expectations for this team and what's realistic. And my response is an honest one where it's like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what this phase of it is going to look like as you endure all this turnover. But one of the reasons that I think this team deserves the benefit of the doubt beyond the roster talent is that Dan has done as well of a job, as good of a job as anybody over the last few years of retooling the staff in quiet ways. You know, so obviously they move on from Anthony Lynn in year one to give Ben the job and it works like gangbusters.

25:50Robert Mays: And then to me, we talked about this, but last year where you bring in Terrell Williams and Deshae Townsend and kind of tweak the defensive coaching staff a little bit and you see the returns on that. And Dan said something today when I was talking to him that I thought was really notable where as he's thinking about how to build the staff, you mentioned it's about having the right guy, but you can't have everyone have the same personality. You have to think about how one guy compliments another, where if you have a coach that's a little bit more vocal, is there somebody on that side of the ball that's a little bit quieter, it's a little bit more reserved?

26:20Robert Mays: And just how intentional he's been and how effective he's been at putting those pieces together over the last three or four years, if anybody deserves the benefit of the doubt about how this is going to go, I would say he's probably the guy. Yeah. A lot of people view Dan as like this, you know, meathead, you know, football guy. And like, yeah, he's obviously got a lot of that in him. But his like emotional intelligence is like some of the best I've seen from an NFL coach. The stuff with Goff and letting him know he was he was wanted here in Detroit. That still gets talked about. Just pressing the right buttons with the coaching staff, finding guys that know what he's all about, not just, you know, job hunting.

26:57I think that stuff matters. And a lot of coaches will just like look for, okay, who give me a list from this tree. Okay, cool. We're going to hire him. No, Dan takes his time. He thinks about this, like a lot of thought and depth goes into those coaching hires. So like, I think this is a crucial year for him, man. Like if he can prove that this team is still a winner without those guys, because everyone says what he's a glorified cheerleader, a coordinator merchant, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, that's all bullshit. Yeah, I think so. But it's like, he has a chance to kind of prove those people wrong.

27:26I think he's probably eager because Dan low key is a guy that keeps receipts. Like if they ever win a Super Bowl, I guarantee you all of those receipts from 2021 are coming out and he's going to have so much fun with that. But yeah, he's he's tucking that away for now and knowing they got to put their heads down and work. And I think he's eager to show what his group can do with a new set of coordinators.

27:43Robert Mays: Yeah. You're always going to be a coordinator merchant to some extent when you're a CEO type head coach. But to pretend like Dan Campbell has not had a huge hand in what the Lions have been over the last few years is very silly. let's talk about to me what the biggest personnel questions are on both sides of the ball very quickly we're recording this on the first day of training camp it's getting being going to get released i believe on saturday next week so it's going to be a little while so i didn't start with this but the moment that just jumped out to me during dan campbell's initial press availability here he mentioned that levi onzerike is out for the year and i had to like stop myself from gasping because now the defensive line becomes a pretty big question you're already missing a lean mcneil for an indeterminate amount of time.

28:24Robert Mays: Levi Onzerike is going to be out for the year. You drop to Tyleek Williams, but he's more of a big body type where that's kind of like a DJ reader long-term replacement. So now you got two kind of one techniques in there. Roy Lopez is the guy who signed this offseason. He's the exact same. So you're missing that penetrating skill set until Aline comes back and he's come back off the ACL. There's all that stuff. And now Josh Paschal is going to miss a little bit of time. He'll be back. But even if you're looking at that depth chart at edge rusher, were one Marcus Davenport injury away from Al-Qadid Muhammad being the No.

28:53Robert Mays: 2 edge rusher for this team. And while I thought he did, he played very well last year. I was very impressed with him coming off the street and doing what he did. I still don't think that's how you want to live. That's what I do. So as I look at the roster, we'll talk about the offensive line in a second, but that defensive line rotation and some of the depth and flexibility, that would be where I had a little bit of lingering concern if I were a Lions fan. Yeah, 100%. And defensive line was an area that I think a lot of us were looking at, But starting at Ed's just because, you know, Z'Darrius Smith is still floating out there.

29:21And I think there are some people that want him back. But that move has not been made yet. Maybe he's weighing out training camp because he doesn't want to play here right now. It's humid out there. I get it. No doubt. But even the Ed's spot, it's like Marcus Davenport is the starter right now. That dude played two games last year and he played, what, four the year before? I think something like that. So it's like I don't know how confident you can feel that he's going to hold up over the course of the season. And it's like I think Levi, what he showed last year after dealing with injuries himself, you know, a back injury slowed him, missed like his entire second season.

29:49Third year was kind of working the rust off. And then last year he really broke out, was top 15 in pressures and win rate on PFF. So it's like, I think you felt good about some interior pass rush with him and his ability to kick out and play some edge in case Davenport gets hurt. So you have that versatility and a guy that was finally producing like a second round pick, like you thought you were getting when you drafted in 2021. So for him to leave and go out and miss the entire season, when a Lee McNeil is probably not coming back till November, maybe, maybe late October. Makai Wingo, who they liked as an interior pass rusher, he's coming off a meniscus injury, has not practiced yet.

30:22He's going to miss some time. Like, yeah, you're losing some juice. And if Davenport goes down, like you said, like, yeah, that line is just Hutch and everyone else. And that's not ideal. So I think the trenches specifically, offensive line and defensive line, is where a lot of us are looking as maybe an area of weakness right now. And again, they've got time to figure things out, maybe add some bodies here too. But yeah, I mean, it's definitely a spot that for a roster that looks as strong as they are, it's easy to find the weak spots. And I think that's one of them right now. Yeah.

30:48Robert Mays: And let's say they don't end up making any sort of splash. Let's say Zarius isn't back. They're going to roll with most of the group that they have. I can see it going either way. I can see them getting out of camp and being like, we need another guy. But if they don't, I think that Calvin Shepard and just some of the ideas in theory that he's bringing, if you look at his background, manufacturing a pass rush, that's something that you can get from those guys. If you look at what all the simulated pressures and just some of the wrinkles, I wouldn't be surprised if this year they felt like they needed to do a little bit more of that if they don't have the horses up front to just play a little bit simpler.

31:20Yeah, I think in that scenario, they would probably lean on Derek Barnes a lot. They brought him back on a new contract this offseason. He could play some edge too, right? Yeah, he played some in college, and they have him in that Sam linebacker role, which is kind of hybrid. You're rushing the passer, dropping the coverage on a given play. So I think they'd probably lean on him, but yeah, I mean, it's hard to find weak spots on this roster because it is so good, but that one kind of stands out for sure.

31:42Robert Mays: Dan talking at the podium today about his concern. He was pretty open about the fact that the offensive line is at front of mind for him and how that's ultimately going to shake out. It was interesting to me. And obviously, you know, this has been something that's happening in the spring. And it's not a surprise, but just watching how much Tate Rattledge was playing center and how that seems to be the first plan they're going to float out there. In your mind, is the best outcome here having Chris Mahogany at left guard, Tate Rattledge at center and Graham Glasgow at right guard? Or do you see it playing out a little bit differently?

32:11You know, at first I thought that maybe you put Graham at center because he's a veteran and you pair him with golf and like there's that level of comfort there because every time Frank was out, Graham would slide over to center and it was not really an issue. And I think maybe like with that plan, you can allow Tate to do what he's comfortable, which is which is guard. He's I think he only played center and practice at Georgia. So never in a game. But then you cross training behind the scenes and allow him to take over maybe next year. I always thought that was maybe the plan that they would lean.

32:39But man, I don't know. OTAs, he was out there at center the majority of the time. It's one day so far, but he spent a lot of his time at center today. And I think they want to get him as many snaps as possible right now. And look, you got two options the way I see it. Graham is more, he's a football IQ guy. He's a smart, knowledgeable veteran. And he can help Jared at the line. Or you could go with the young, athletic guy that can move in space and big-bodied, like stone brick wall, essentially, which is Tate. And if you'd rather have that and keep Graham at guard and Graham can still make calls as a guard, you don't have to be a center and do that.

33:16Um, so I wonder if that's the route they go. And you kind of brought that up just that Jared has such a command of this offense that you might not need a guy like Graham at center. You might be able to let a rookie like Tate play that position. I think there's a couple

33:26Robert Mays: of different things to consider the veteran quarterback and make, and having the veteran quarterback that can take some mental stuff off of the center. I think that's absolutely part of it. But the other part of it is that I think when you had Glasgow move over there last year, I think he gives you a floor at the position. To me, it actually speaks to how this team views the importance of a center in their overall structure. Because instead of trying to find a floor at the position, which is what a lot of other teams would do, they're trying to seek out the highest ceiling at the position, which they've had over the last few years.

33:58Robert Mays: And they've realized the benefits of that. So I think with a lot of teams, I've kind of had to reframe this over the last hour or two as I've thought about it, is that I think a lot of teams would be trying to figure out how can we get acceptable play there? Guards are more valuable. This team, I feel like, has lived in a slightly different world over the last few years. So I wouldn't be surprised if they're conceiving of it a little bit differently. Yeah, look, when you're used to all pro level talent at center and that's been the anchor of your offense, you're trying to find as close as possible to that.

34:27And that's not necessarily Graham. So I get if they were looking for the upside play, that wouldn't be him at this stage in his career. And I don't know if that's ever been him. But Tate is man. His RAS was like nine point nine eight. Like he's big. He's got the mentality to play center. I think he's a smart kid and a quick study from what I've heard. So, yeah, why not, you know, let him rock there, see what he can do, at least in training camp. And if he proves himself, look, this is an open competition. That's what Dan said today. And they're going to let these guys play. So I'm very curious to see how that shakes out.

34:54It's funny.

34:55Robert Mays: There are very, very few 6 '5.5 centers in the NFL, or have been. The fact that you went from that guy in Ragnow to a bigger one in Tate Rattledge, at least Goff is going to be dealing with the same sort of thing in terms of where he's having to put his hands. Not a lot of acclimation period necessary there. We've been going for half an hour. We could do this for an hour, because I think this team is just interesting on so many different levels. We've got a lot of these to get to today. Colton Pouncey, sincerely appreciate your time. Always good to see you, buddy. We'll be back at it tomorrow.

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38:22Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Chargers writer here at The Athletic, Daniel Popper. Daniel, how are you doing, buddy? Doing great. We just debriefed on our Spain trips that we both took and spend about five minutes talking about all the delicious meals that we had, which is very applicable for how our conversations usually go when you're at camp here. That is correct. And I'm trying to decide. We're in San Diego right now. The Chargers are doing a couple days in San Diego. I didn't really make the University of San Diego connection with Jim Harbaugh. I just figured that out while they were practicing as to why they're doing this.

38:51Robert Mays: And also, obviously, you're tending to the garden of fans down here, which I appreciate. But I'm in San Diego, and I had dinner plans tonight. and I'm trying to figure out whether I need to get a burrito before I leave this town, even though I know I'm going to have a huge dinner, and I think I'm going to. I think I'm just going to say, f*** it. Well, I'm a terrible influence. You really are. You've convinced me to do it, which I hate you for. The answer to burrito question mark is always yes. I'm on the road for 21 days, and if I eat like this, it's going to be a really bad time by the time we get to the end of it, but I think I'm just going to deal with that when we get there.

39:21Robert Mays: Yeah, and you only do it once a year. That's true. It's true. Enjoy yourself. This team is a fascinating team, I think, for a bunch of different reasons. They made the playoffs last year in a surprising way. And then they didn't do a ton this offseason compared to teams that have had this sort of trajectory over the last couple of years. You make a comparison to how the Texans approached last offseason or how Washington approached this offseason, where you make the playoffs in year one, you sneak up on some people, and then it accelerates your timeline. This team didn't really do that. They operated in a more methodical way this spring.

39:53Robert Mays: They didn't overextend themselves. And so, I think it's led to some questions about, all right, well, how good are they really? How much talent is on this team? Is it reasonable to expect them to do the same things they did last year? So, as you take a step back and you think holistically about what they were in 2024, how they approached the offseason, and how that feeds into expectations for 2025, where do you land on that? So, this is sort of how I framed it. Obviously, they make the playoffs last year, and the schedule is going to get tougher. And it has. I think a big part of last year was Jim Harbaugh came in, raised the floor.

40:26They won the games that they were supposed to win, and they got into the playoffs as a result. This year, it's going to be a little bit different. They're going to have to win against very good teams against playoff teams. I mean, the only playoff team they beat last year was the Broncos, and they beat them twice. So the schedule is going to be tougher. Have they improved the roster enough to offset how much tougher the schedule is going to be? I think that's the big question. Like you said, they've built a very deep roster. I think that is objectively true. Deep and flexible, I think, is how I would describe it.

40:56How good is the roster, I think, is the question to ask. And you have a lot of these position groups that are very, very deep. And you have a lot of guys that are competing, not just for roles, but potential starting snaps. What camp is going to be about is who emerges from these groups as the guys they can rely on, i.e., what happened with Puna Ford last year, and how good are those guys, and what does that mean for how the team performs this season, and how they handle this much tougher schedule.

41:20Robert Mays: I think that's a fair way to look at it. And as I think about this team and I look at the overall complexion of the roster, I think you can feel really good about certain position groups. The secondary, especially considering what we felt about it this time last year, Tar Heap still emerging, Cam Hart emerging, Elijah Molden becoming a guy that you want to pay. This team has three playable safeties. They have two young ascending corners. The Dante Jackson part of it we can talk about, but I do think it's a good deep group. Benjamin St. Juice is somebody who's played a lot in the league. He's now depth for you.

41:48Robert Mays: You look at the offensive line. There are six, seven bodies they can throw out there. But you take the entire roster and you look at it. How many stars are there? And I think that becomes the question. Even if you're deep and flexible in some of these position groups, how many truly difference-making players do you have on both sides of the ball? And that feels like the bet they're making. Is that some of these guys who were young, promising players, is Ladd McConkie going to take another step forward and be one of the elite receivers in the league? Is Deion Henley going to be somebody that goes from a player that the football nerds like watching to now being a star who everyone knows his name?

42:26Robert Mays: And I think if that doesn't happen, this team is a little bit disappointing. If that does happen, then maybe they overcome some of those questions we have about whether they should have been more aggressive this offseason. Right. Exactly. And I think that eventually will decide the ceiling. right like who emerges as you know those top of the line blue chip type players with the floor though you kind of have to ask you know what happens with you know some of these positions where you don't have a clear-cut blue chip player and is it a by committee approach or do you have a situation like an interior defensive line for example you have seven guys now like you're talking about they just threw all these darts naquan jones tier tart you know uh otito bonia returned scott matlock deshaun hand you can sort of go down the list last year they took a similar approach, Puna Ford becomes an elite player.

43:12Is there a guy in that room who can emerge? Or do they take more of a by-committee approach? And can a by-committee approach get you to where you want to go in certain position groups, whether that's on the interior of the offensive line, interior of the defensive line, even cornerback you can throw out as a potential option? Those are the questions that I really have. In some of those groups where you don't have a Derwin James, you don't have a Justin Herber, you don't have a Dayon Henley, what happens in those rooms? Does somebody emerge? Or are Or are they just going to be rotating a bunch of guys at these different spots to figure out exactly what they're going to do in these certain position groups?

43:41Robert Mays: I think on the defensive line, that seems to be the plan. And if you talk to them, I mean, they feel better about that group now at this time on July 23rd than they did on July 23rd of last year because of the depth, because of how many guys can reasonably be acceptable, be passable players. And they're much bigger. Yes, they're huge. And I think the way they've built that room is interesting. Because some teams, you have a penetrating body type, and then you have more of a space-eating body type. This team has a lot of space-eating body types. I think that's necessary because of how they play in the run game, because of the box counts that they have.

44:13Robert Mays: But now, you don't have a real penetrator in the interior. And then you look on the edge, and I feel like the edge depth and the quality of that group, when you combine that with the fact that you don't have a penetrating interior player, Is your pass rush good enough in those defined situations where you're bringing four? I think that's a reasonable question to ask, even if the floor of that group is pretty high. 100 percent. It's different than last year. I mean, Jesse Minter said last year that the engine of the defense was the edge rushers, building it around Khalil and Joey, who was hurt but was on the field and Tule below two.

44:45It feels a little bit different this year. It feels like they're going to pivot as far as what is the engine of the defense. To me, what the engine of the defense is right now is the safety room. It's getting Derwin James at nickel and starting that from the very first game of the season, knowing exactly what he's going to be. It was week nine on last year where Derwin started playing more slot. It was over 43 % of the snaps from week nine on. But it took a little bit to figure out exactly what it was and what Elijah Molden was going to be after they traded for him in late August. That feels like it's going to be the engine as opposed to the edge rushing group.

45:13I think a big thing with the pass rush is what is 2-2-2-2?

45:17Robert Mays: Yeah. Right? Yeah, it's a great point. He's like a swing guy on this roster. Absolutely. That was one of my 10 storylines coming into camp because I think a big thing last year, he played the most snaps of the edge rushers last year. Because Khalil had two groin injuries. He actually pulled both of his groins in the same game against Cleveland in Week 9. That's an old man problem. And that affected his play as a pass rusher, I think, in the second half of the season. Played more than Joey, who was battling the back issue. He also played 300 special team snaps. Over 300. So, 339 special team snaps.

45:47So, he had over 700 defensive snaps and over 300 special team snaps. over a thousand snaps played between the two. They're not going to play him as much on special teams this year. Or at least that's the plan. He's a very good special team player. I mean, they can. He's their number two edge rusher now. But can he elevate his game when he is no longer playing as much on special teams? Because to me, and some people disagree with this, but to me, I thought he was a more productive, efficient pass rusher as a rookie than he was last year. The numbers back it up. His pressure rate was better as a rookie than it was last year, but it was marginal.

46:15It was 11.9 % to 10.8%. I just thought he was a more impactful player as a rookie. But there is a lot more on the bone for him. And if he can be fresher on defense, and he's got this clear-cut starting job opposite Khalil Mack, can he be a real dude? And if he's a real dude, that does change the math a little bit as far as what the pass rush is. But there are some questions there. And then, who's that guy on the interior, I think is another question.

46:36Robert Mays: And now, even if he is a dude, Bud Dupree is your No. 3. Bud Dupree is a fine depth piece at this point, but he's a very specific kind of player at this point in his career. Even if you want to give young guys opportunities, I think one more edge rusher at some point in camp is something they should probably take a look at. On the back end, I'm curious about how the cornerback room ends up shaking out. Because when I looked at what they did this offseason, I thought corner was the one spot where you could maybe justify a more aggressive push in free agency because of the players who were available.

47:05Robert Mays: All of those guys that are making that three-year,$54 million. Carlton Davis. Carlton Davis, Paulson DiDebo, Byron Murphy. There's three more of them. DJ Reed, Traveris Ward. All of those guys in the same bracket there. But those are third contract players. And I think that you're paying sticker price for third contract players, which isn't something Joe Ortiz is going to do. If you look at the history in Baltimore and how that affects his sensibilities now, I'm not surprised they didn't do that. But they went on and got Dante Jackson as this year's version of Christian Fulton. And my question is, are we actually going to get to a point where Dante Jackson is the third corner and Hart and Still are actually the starting corners in those three safety looks?

47:47Robert Mays: Because if Still can take a big step and he can be a difference-making sort of player, that actually makes me feel a little bit better about the defense overall if that's how the 5 DBs shake out, like you said, 45 % of the time. Right. Yeah. And I think with Tarheeb, he's got tremendous ball skills and great instincts. So is he ever going to be a No. 1 lockdown man corner? No, it's not his game. That's not what this team does. Right. With how much zone they play. But I could absolutely see him having a 7-8 interception season this year, next year. He has that type of skill set. So I'm fascinated to see how it works out.

48:24And right now, the interesting part is, and Jesse Minter has talked about this, their defensive coordinator in the offseason. And, you know, he's talked about it being like a basketball team. Yeah. Having all these different body types and different styles to be able to match up with what offenses are doing. I love that idea in theory. But in practice, from my experience, just talking to players and watching a lot of football, like it feels like it's almost always better to settle on a group and let them develop that cohesion. And I worry about the idea of, OK, this week where, you know, the Chargers are playing Drake London.

48:52So you want to have a bigger corner on the outside versus like the next week you're playing Tyreek Hill. So you want to have like a smaller corner, like trying to make. different matchup adjustments. To me, it would be better to settle on a grouping with those two outside corners and the three safeties to figure out exactly what your best five will be in nickel packages. And we'll see how that sort of works out here. Maybe they do end up settling on it.

49:12Robert Mays: I think my read on that is, do we use Benjamin St. Juiced in the red zone when we're playing against a team like the Bengals? Not, do we use him this week because we're playing a team like the Bengals? That feels like the more realistic expression of that idea. Situationally versus week to week. Correct. And I think that when you combine that with thinking about the three safety stuff and using Derwin in the nickel when you're playing, like a team that plays more 12 personnel, a team that we're worried about defending the run against 11 personnel on early downs. I think it's more about figuring out who the nickel is and then using some of the cornerback bodies situationally.

49:48Robert Mays: That would be my take on him saying that. Right. And so the beauty of it is that I think long term Tarheep still is a better fit as a nickel than he is as an outside corner. He had good snaps on the outside last year, and he can do it. But I think he has the potential to be an elite nickel player. And so you can now put Derwin James at safety, and next to him is Elijah Molden or Eloy Gilman, and get all three of those corners on the field, with Tarheem at nickel, and then Dante Jackson and Cam Hart on the outside. So there's a lot of moving pieces. But Derwin James probably said it best. They're really deep in that room, but you need corner depth.

50:23The reality of the situation is, all of these guys we're talking about are going to play at some point this year. I mean, they played Eli Apple, like significant snaps in certain games last year. And so that's the reality of the NFL. It's an attrition position, and you're going to work through a lot of your corner depth. So it's good to have these different options. I think the big question is, if everybody's healthy, what is the package?

50:45Robert Mays: I think this is the corner specifically. This is a floor setting thing for me. When we think about which types of players can lift the ceiling off of the defense. The guy that we're talking about this earlier. if I had to bet on one player in the NFL who is not a household name right now, that will be a star by the end of this season. Deion Henley would be on the short list of those players for multiple reasons. I think they're very excited about the steps he's going to take as a player. But also, he might be the most charismatic man in the NFL. He just did his press conference today. And he and I talked in the locker room last year when I visited the facility.

51:15Robert Mays: And I was just blown away by the thoughtfulness. He's just incredibly smart, thoughtful, charismatic. I think he's going to be one of those guys that is he's in more production meetings on Sunday night football, all of that kind of stuff. He's just somebody where the awareness of him for people that are more casual fans is going to change. And if that corresponds with him emerging as like a star level player on the defense, that's again where like maybe the ceiling on this group starts to change a little bit because you find one, two more real difference making players. Yeah, it's partly the exposure, but part of it, too, is the ball production.

51:50Because he had opportunities last year to pad those numbers. He only had one interception, which came in the last game of the season, and he had one sack. But he had opportunities for many more. I go back to the Cleveland game where he dropped a pick over the middle. In position, played it beautifully, but didn't come down with the interception. Against the Chiefs in Week 14, he had a chance to sack Mahomes. End that game, end the losing streak against the Chiefs. Mahomes gets free, is able to hit Travis Kelsey. The Chiefs win the game. So I think for him, that's the big thing. is finish some of these plays that he had the opportunity to finish last year.

52:21And then all of a sudden you have the counting numbers where you're now, you know, being talked about in the same class as Fred Warner and some of those other off-ball linebackers.

52:28Robert Mays: Let's go to the other side of the ball. Trey Harris is working with the number one team today. And it feels like he's established as like a starting receiver among the back. Jalen Rager didn't practice today. So typically it had been Rager in place of Harris. Interesting. Okay. So, but in your mind, that's Trey Harris's job to lose as one of those three starting receivers in this offense. Yeah. I mean, the interesting thing was, it was going to be a heated competition with Mike Williams. But Mike Williams retired on the first day of training camp, really told the team the night before. So that kind of changed things because it felt like the idea was Ladd McConkie is going to be playing in the slot primarily.

53:02You have Mike Williams, who's an established ex, who's done it with Justin Herbert at that position where you feel like you're comfortable with him going in and being able to play at a certain level. And then they started Trey Harris at Z. That's the position they were having him learn. Now, the calculus kind of changes because Mike Williams is gone. And who is going to be that X receiver? It's been Quentin Johnston. And they're still trying to keep Trey Harris at Z because they want him to learn one position before having to learn other ones. So, right now, it's been Ladd McConkie in the slot, Quentin Johnston at X, and Jalen Rager at Z.

53:34That's been typically what they've gone to in some of the starters on starters, situational two-minute. Some of those drills where you can see the rotation. But they've got two rookies now that are going to be fighting to make it into that three-receiver package and 11 personnel between Trey Harris and Keiondre Lambert-Smith. And you saw a couple plays from KLS today.

53:53Robert Mays: Two fantastic adjustments on deep balls down the field. Going and tracking the ball in the air, making a play on it, high-pointing one of them. Very impressive. And they're excited about him. I think they were surprised that they were able to get him where they did in the draft. And so, you combine that with the Trey Harris. And there's a chance this group kind of sneaks up on us as feeling very different than it felt a year ago. Yeah, absolutely. And I think part of the idea was obviously on a broad level surrounding Justin Herbert with more talent, but also like having guys that can access the deep part of the field and be successful in that area.

54:24Mike Williams, Trey Harris, Keiondre Lambert-Smith all could do that. Now Mike is gone, obviously. You're seeing some signs of Quinton Johnston, but it's not his game. It's just not his game and never has been. Right, right. And he had a drop today. You know, it always feels like step forward, two steps back kind of situation with Quinton. But I think the idea was like, OK, bring in guys that can be dangerous in that part of the field so that at least there's the threat. Because at times last year, there just wasn't that type of threat and it just became suffocating for the offense. So now you have a bunch of guys that can access the field in those areas and be dangerous.

54:55And I think that opens things up for the offense as a whole, you know, on top of just giving Justin Herbert more options to go to at the football.

55:02Robert Mays: Is it fair for me to assume that O'Marrion Hampton is just going to get a disgusting amount of work this season, considering what we're dealing with with Najee Harris right now? I mean, I felt like he was going to be the clear weed back by week five, week six, just because his college tape is outrageous. And they've been looking for a guy like that, that they feel like can do everything and they can hand off the ball and he can go turn what's blocked for three yards into 20, 25 yards, 75 yards. He's that type of player. I think, you know, now that Najee Harris is out with this eye injury that he suffered in a fireworks accident and his status is uncertain, you know, Omar and Ham can take this, you know, wherever he wants to because they want to run the football.

55:40They took him in the first round for a reason. And now there's no one really stopping him from getting that type of share in terms of the backfield split.

55:46Robert Mays: Looking at the group in front of him, obviously, that's the other part of this, right? When it comes to them improving on the ground, the American thing I get. I feel like they absolutely needed to get more meat on the bone when it came to who was actually toting the ball. But the group up front is just, I still have my questions about it. Because you bring in Makai Bakhtan at a reasonable price, but there's a reason he was available at that price. He's had trouble staying healthy. There's some questions about that. And then you look at their other interior spots. And even if they're moving Zion Johnson to center or trying him out there and seeing how it goes, there's a very real chance that two of those guys, two-thirds of that interior that was disappointing last year, makes up that group again.

56:23Robert Mays: And so part of me is just a little bit worried that we went through this entire offseason and it's just not going to feel that different up there, especially if Becton misses any bit of time. And that's the pessimistic view. I understand that. But that would be in the back of my mind if I were a fan of this team is that we're trying to have the offense just take a step forward. Why wouldn't it? That group kind of sorting out in a similar sort of way that it did last year would be one of the reasons. Yeah, no, I 100 percent agree with you. I think in their minds, if Mekhi Becton is on the field, he's going to elevate the offensive line as a whole and elevate the interior of the offensive line.

57:01If everything works out with Zion Johnson at center, Mekhi would be playing next to Zion. I think their biggest issue last year on the interior in terms of pass protection was identifying and picking up stunts and blitzes. There were too many free rushers. You've talked so much on the pod about the quick pressures, especially in that Houston game in the playoffs. And so what you're doing is you're moving Zion, whose biggest weakness is his ability to identify and react, and putting him at center, where you absolutely have to be able to identify and react to these types of things that are happening in front of your face to be successful.

57:29I have to see it. That's kind of where I'm at.

57:31Robert Mays: It sounds good in theory. And then I think part of the selling point is it's going to allow him to see the game in a slightly different way. And I guess I sort of understand that. But I also feel like you're adding more to a guy's plate and hoping that's going to help it slow it down for him. I don't know how that tracks. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm basically at the point now where I've been talking about this since February. And I'm just like, I have to see it. And they're in day six right now. They have one padded practice. Bradley Bozeman was at center for that padded practice. They have a padded practice tomorrow.

58:01And Zion was at center today for an unpadded practice. And, you know, talking to Greg Roman, he made it seem like there's a possibility that they would have Zion at center in two straight days to get him in pads. But I got to see him in pads. I got to see him in pads in 11 on 11 with Jesse Minter throwing some blitzes and some twists in his face to see if he's actually going to improve in that area with this position switch. And if he doesn't improve, you literally have the same center and left guard as last year. That was a weakness that that, you know, defenses feasted on, particularly in the playoff game.

58:28So that to me, like is the biggest question. Full stop with the entire roster is like what happens on the interior of the offensive line, because it lost them a bunch of games last year.

58:35Robert Mays: Even if you're excited about the tackles, and you should be, if we get to a place where it's week seven, and it's Bradley Bozeman at center, Zion Johnson at left guard, and Jamal Risaly at right guard because Mekhi Becton got hurt, that's not a thing I'd be really excited about. It's the same starting trio as the playoff game. Yes. Last thing, we've mentioned Justin Herbert's name like one time here. And I think part of that is because, in my mind, I kind of know what Justin Herbert is. I feel pretty good about what Justin Herbert is. When you watched him last year, how did last season, seeing him in a new offense with a new coaching staff, with a staff that maybe treated him a little bit differently, that maybe pushed him out of his comfort zone in some ways, how did last season kind of reframe the way that you see Justin Herbert?

59:15Yeah, I mean, last year was tough as far as evaluating him because he got hurt in training camp and had this plantar fascia injury that knocked him out for three weeks in training camp. he finally makes it back on the field and in week two he's trying to you know go into hero mode and stay up while he's got defenders draped all over him in the panthers game and he suffers a high ankle sprain and he ends up battling that the whole season but he's really not healthy until week seven week eight he ends up spraining the other ankle he has a thigh contusion he's dealing with knee swelling so it ended up being the situation where you know he played obviously very well and he was able to limit turnovers but it never felt like we got a full picture of what he could be in the offense because he lost all of that time in training camp and then was battling this high ankle sprain and they were just piecing it together.

1:00:01There were certain parts of the playbook that were off limits until they got to that week seven, week eight game. Obviously, he got healthier and they found a rhythm, particularly him just peppering Ladd McConkie and that turning into the entire offense. And then the game he played against the Broncos on Thursday night at the end of the season was one of the best games he's ever played. But at this point with Justin, you know, he gets into the playoffs and, you know, the offensive line is a mess. And he plays what is, in my opinion, given the circumstances, the worst game of his career. Yes. And so what I'm watching now is, OK, you know, 2024 was a good start.

1:00:35There was obviously some questions and some blurry lines in the entire picture because of the injuries. But how does he respond from that Houston game now? And that's what I'm going to be looking for. you know, mentally in terms of his, his play, how aggressive he is, you know, what does that game mean for, you know, his future and how does he come back from that? Because the reality is until he gets back to the playoffs and wins a playoff game, there's going to be a lot of noise. It's hard to be moved.

1:01:06Robert Mays: It's not, it's going to matter very little until we get there. And that's just, and that's just the reality of playing quarterback in the NFL. But that's really what I'm, what I'm focusing on now. It was a good foundation last year, I think, especially in terms of his relationship with lad mcconkey but how does he respond from what was in my opinion like a low point in his career yeah the problem is and this is just the natural thing and how it works with quarterbacks you are whatever your last game looked like and that's unfortunate for justin herbert because i don't think a lot of people were watching 305 raider charger games last year and he was pretty good in those games and so it just that's the nature of the position whatever your last note was especially if it's in a playoff game on national television that's what you're to be through the entire offseason.

1:01:46Robert Mays: And I think in a lot of ways, Justin Herbert was the best player he's ever been last year because of stuff we talk about all the time. I think that him being a little bit looser, him being a little bit more aggressive, them kind of pushing him to that place with the way the offense was structured, what they were asking of him. I think that it was a way to unlock a slightly different gear in who Justin Herbert is. And if they can maintain that this year, if he can stay a little bit healthier, the running game gets better, the offensive line settles. I think there's a chance that we see a lot of the good again based on how they're coming into this season.

1:02:17Yeah, I don't think the vision ever materialized. Greg Roman, when we first met him in February of 2024, he's like, what is Justin Herbert going to look like with a great running game? Yeah, and that never happened. We never saw it. I do wonder a little bit. I think they instilled in him early on a sack is better than an interception. I think in certain situations, he was hyper fixated on like not throwing he took way more sacks last year than he had ever

1:02:43Robert Mays: taken in his entire career it was notable especially on third down increased like significantly so like yes i there were situations where he was pushing the ball downfield but i also feel like there's more to tap into in terms of that aggressiveness just because of like how much they instilled in him that turnovers are the absolute worst thing in the world he throws three all season and throws four in the playoffs you know but i you know i think there's even more on the bone there as far as how aggressive he can be, especially when you have more weapons, like we were talking about earlier, that can actually be dangerous in the deep part of the field.

1:03:16Robert Mays: It's a very different team in a very different spot than a lot of the conversations that you and I have had over the years where it feels like things had been teetering for a little while, or it's like you're trying to pull it back from the brink. And that's just not the conversation right now. I think this is a team that feels like a stable one, one where the floor is really high. And now it's just a question of, are they going to be able to take that step to potentially raising the ceiling in a way that is not super obvious right now, but would make sense if it played out that way. Yep. A hundred percent.

1:03:41And they can thank Jim Harbaugh for raising that floor and Joe Hortiz. But Jim Harbaugh as a coach is like, that's, I think, his greatest attribute is that it immediately raises the floor as far as going into some of these games that you're supposed to win and winning them.

1:03:54Robert Mays: Daniel Popper, always great to chat with you, sir. We'll do it again very soon. Sounds good. Thanks for having me, Robert.

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1:06:11Robert Mays: Joining us now from Oxnard, California, And yeah, it is our Cowboys right here at the Athletic, John Machoda. John, how are you doing, man? I'm great. I know everybody that comes out here will tell you that they love coming out here because it's so hot in Texas. And that is true, but nobody loves it as much as I do. I'll put my love for this up against anyone. So couldn't be happier. This is, I don't take it for granted taking videos out here today. Those mountains in the background, like, I think it's like my 12th time coming out here. Nobody was happier when they found out that they were extending the lease through 2030.

1:06:46Robert Mays: It's also beautiful today. We're here on Thursday. The weather is absolutely perfect. And I want to start with just the general vibe around practice on a beautiful day. The first thing that jumped out to me today, as they're getting practice started, the energy and just the overall enthusiasm and how they're trying to build that in with some of the things they're doing structurally, like little drills that everyone's getting involved with. Dak was like riding a down marker, like Happy Gilmore, like riding a bull right before practice started. And he was talking about it today. How would you just describe the overarching tone of what the first Brian Schottenheimer campus felt like?

1:07:26Robert Mays: Because it feels different to me. Yeah, there's no doubt about that. And I don't think he'll say this because he's good friends with Mike McCarthy. but Brian Chottenheimer has been around the team for a few years now. And so my takeaway from that, from what I've seen, not only it's a carryover here from what we saw in OTAs and minicamp, I feel like he felt that was missing, you know, and you can tell by some of the hires he had on this coaching staff or some guys from the college ranks. You know, that was one of the storylines during OTAs and minicamp was like, it almost has like a little bit of a college feel to it.

1:08:01The way that coaches are running around, like they're hyping up the players too um and i think it's interesting because it's different uh mike mccarthy wasn't real big on having the music blaring all the time certainly not throughout all of practice it was really just when they were getting you know water breaks and you can tell shot namers wanted that he has wanted the high energy and uh and i get it and that all makes sense but like i say every every time i've been asked about this it's but it won't matter if they

1:08:27Robert Mays: don't win on sundays yeah it sounds good in july right and it sounds good at the beginning of training camp. But you can feel a difference. And this is actually funny. I wasn't connecting these dots. But when I went to Green Bay in 2019, I had a story about Matt LaFleur's first year there. And a lot of the players talked about how stuffy it had felt previously and how much looser it was. Music was actually a part of that conversation. I remember they would literally program it themselves with their phone through an app and players like that. It's small stuff. And again, if you don't win, it doesn't matter.

1:08:57Robert Mays: But it's notable that this is the second time a team has moved on from Mike McCarthy. And you can just tell that the overall vibes and just how free players feel seems to be a little bit of a shift. Yeah, for sure. And you can even kind of take it from just behind the scenes or during practice to even like plays and the style of the offense. It just seems like, for lack of a better way of describing it, just almost seems like it's going to be more fun. Again, if it doesn't win on Sundays, nobody will care. But it's more than just one thing. It's throughout all parts of the organization, and I do feel like that's authentic to who Brian Schottenheimer is.

1:09:37I don't think he's being phony. I don't think that he is the same guy that his dad was. And as he has pointed out several times over the last few months, it also was a different time when his dad was coaching. There's things that you just wouldn't do with today's players. And also, let's just be honest, there's things that today in the collective bargaining agreement you can't do nowadays As physical as you want to be, there's still limitations on how physical it can get. And so I think that Brian Chatenheimer's done a great job of putting his stamp on it. And so here we are. We'll see. We'll see where it goes.

1:10:10But yeah, up to this point, with no games being played, I don't know how you could do a better job than Brian's done up to this point.

1:10:15Robert Mays: Looking at how he was just moving around practice and clearly the enthusiasm he brings, it reminds me a little bit of a guy he spent a lot of time with, Pete Carroll, right? The fact that he spent time with Pete Carroll, you can sense that a little bit. And when I was trying to put a positive spin on what the Brian Schottenheimer era could look like in Dallas, why could this work, even if I felt like the search itself left a lot to be desired? People love Brian Schottenheimer. People like him. And the idea that as a head coach, maybe if you're not the best play caller, maybe if you're not the best X's and O's granular coach, if you're somebody that can create buy-in from the locker room, that's a huge part of being a head coach.

1:10:52Robert Mays: That, to me, made up a majority of the best-case scenario for him. And it does seem like that's what he's trying to root himself in. Yeah, no, I completely agree with you on that. The one thing I'll say, though, is when you say about the play caller part of it, that's that's the part where I wonder if it's because kind of the way that I look at it from like if this doesn't work out with him being the head coach and play caller, one of the things I will look back on because I've thought this throughout being someone who's from Detroit is it's almost like it would be an easier fit if he was like the Dan Campbell bring the energy guy but have someone that's calling the offense have somebody that's doing the defense and you're the guy that can be around i don't like the stuff you saw today i don't know how much you can keep doing that during the season he says that he can he says he's got it all planned out but that was one of the things that i'm sure you know you've read stuff you've talked to people that in green bay with mike mccarthy was like him off with the offense and you know kind of didn't spend a lot of time with the defense and things like that whereas shot hammer is a lot more like jason garrett was with going around to the different groups and all that.

1:11:54But again, Jason Garrett, for a good portion of his time as head coach, was not calling plays, too. So that's the part where he's got a lot on his plate, not only to deal with being the head coach of the Dallas Cowboys, which includes a lot of distractions, which is one we're seeing with Mike Parsons' contract, but also Jerry Jones. Jerry Jones talking on the radio twice a week. Jerry Jones talking after the game when Brian Sean and I will be talking. I do think he'll handle all of that very well. I think his personality is perfect for that. It is. So that part will all be great. the one part that I come to where I'm kind of like, I'm interested to see how this work is the offensive player part, because there's a lot of work that you have to put in to do that.

1:12:29Robert Mays: When you were saying that you think the offense will be more fun, what leads into that? What have you guys seen that you think will feel different about this version of the Cowboys offense compared to the last couple of years? I think number one would be more motions shifts, you know, getting guys moving around a lot more. Brian's used the term doesn't want a static offense. And that is what it felt like for way too long and way too often here. And you said it. He's not going to say that, but exactly. I mean, that's the way I took it when he said that. And hey, I'll be the first to say, there's a lot of things to criticize about the Dallas Cowboys.

1:13:06And you can criticize Mike McCarthy if you want about a lot of things. But they also won 12 games three years in a row. So we're not going to act like that he's fixing Urban Meyer's Jaguars. You know what I'm saying? Like, we're not going to act like it's just this, oh, it's the worst thing ever, whatever. Like there was he had a decent amount of success. It just didn't have that success in January. And so that's the part where I think that Brian can take some of those things that Mike did and then add some of his own spin on it. Going back to what you said earlier, completely agree with you on the Pete Carroll thing.

1:13:36Brian's mentioned that a lot. He's also mentioned a lot of Dan Quinn, too, when he talks about those major current coaching influence. Obviously, his dad's number one. Let's say Steve Spurrier's number two. And Mike McCarthy's obviously in there, too. But Pete Carroll, like you mentioned, and Dan Quinn come up a lot, too.

1:13:52Robert Mays: The offense and just the layers it might have. The word I always come back to is more dynamic. Does the offense feel more dynamic? And I think part of the struggles last year with the run game come from the fact that everything was a little bit static. One of the things is I'm trying to build a positive case for how this can go. I think, again, the buy-in you can create as that sort of head coach. And then Clayton Adams, I thought, did such a great job with the run game in Arizona. And even watching them out here today, the amount of personnel groupings. Talking to Clayton after practice is the first time he's had a fullback in a really long time in the NFL.

1:14:22Robert Mays: This is going to be a multi-tight end team. And so all the angles you can create, all the movement you can create in the run game with some of that moving picture, having, again, just feel more dynamic. That's how I start to build a case where, all right, even if Brian Schottenheimer's not Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan, this team has a lot of talent on offense. If a young offensive line can come together and the offense feels more dynamic overall and that bleeds into the run game, can this be the sort of unit that gets back to where it was in 2022, 2023? It certainly can. And I think having a 10 year veteran in Dak Prescott is a big part of that, that there's not going to be a lot that other teams do that's going to completely surprise him.

1:15:00the thing I go back to though is when you get out there on the field though are you going to have everybody and I maintain again not to keep bringing this back to Detroit but if Detroit has the health of Philadelphia Detroit will hoist the Lombardi I'm just completely convinced of that last year they were the best team and it wasn't close when they were healthy but they weren't healthy the Dallas Cowboys certainly weren't healthy and I'm not putting health totally in Cowboys they were three and five when Dak got hurt. We're not going to. Jerry was talking about that in the opening press conference.

1:15:31Like that was the main thing. There were three and five when he got hurt. It was going in a bad direction to begin with. But the injuries were a big part of it. And so I look at the way that this team is constructed and I'm like, if they can be, if they, you got to have pickings, you got to have land, you got to have Dak out there. You got to have that young offensive line, be healthy, be that same offensive line that's in week one, that's in week 15. You know what I'm saying? And so because of that, if you can tell me that stuff happens, I can see where you're coming from of like, yeah, it could be really positive.

1:15:58But it's like if you're losing a piece here or there, I don't know if, especially with a running game that you have the pieces there that you can be like, well, we'll just lean on the next guy.

1:16:05Robert Mays: They're not deep at all. And even today, Terrence still didn't practice today. And I'm like, oh, Hakeem and Denerji is the backup right tackle. I think in the interior, they have guys. Like if Brock Hoffman had to play in a pinch, he's able to show some stuff. But other than the interior of the offensive line, I think Robert Jones is a decent player. If they lose a guard, they'd be okay. Anywhere else on the offense, I wouldn't feel great about where things sit. And it's interesting that you say that too, because that's why as much as their clear number one offensive lineman is Tyler Smith, and he's their left guard and they would love for him to be like Zach Martin at right guard, where it's like, you're going to be here for 10, 15 seasons, and then we're going to put your name in the ring of honor and you're going to go to Canton.

1:16:44But because of what you said, you can't rule out that at some point in the season, he's moved out to tackle because he would be your best option. And then, so what are all the other pieces that have to fall into place then? Because I completely agree with you. I do think that they're better depth-wise on the interior. So he would be the first guy you kick out. And so that's just a lot of musical chairs that you probably want to avoid. So again, it's one of those things where if you told me you can't watch the season, at the end of the year, they won 12 games, or heck, even 10 games, the No. 1 thing I'd say to you is, oh, they must have stayed really healthy.

1:17:14Robert Mays: Yeah. And I think that makes sense. And if you look at the offense, the only personnel question I really have, if everyone is healthy, is who's going to get the most work at running back? So as you've watched the first few days of training camp here, obviously, it's very, very early. How do you see the workload shaking out with those guys between Javante Williams, Miles Sanders? Deuce Vaughn got a little bit of run today. What does that look like for you? I'm glad you brought up Deuce Vaughn because it's one of those things where Deuce has been on the roster the last two years. And so when they use two draft picks on running backs, to me, the writing's on the wall.

1:17:45And they signed two running backs, the writing's on the well, the deuce is out, but he's been one of the guys that has stood out the most out of that runback group out of what we've seen through these first two practices. That's why I said his name

1:17:55Robert Mays: because he had a couple of moments today where it's like, oh man, Deuce Vaughn, forgot about Deuce Vaughn. No question. And so that has changed my thinking. So right after the draft was over, I was like, oh, they use the fifth round pick on Jaden Blue. Jaden Blue will be the guy that ends up being their leading rusher. And since the end of the draft till now, I'm like, no, I think Javante Williams has got the best chance to be their leading rusher. And I think Miles Sanders will be number two. And then Jaden Blue or Phil Maffa or Deuce Vaughn or Hunter Lipke. But I just think that Javante Williams and Miles Sanders have kind of separated themselves.

1:18:28But that's the one thing about the preseason. They're going to give those young backs a ton of work. And that's when you're going to find out. Because I say this about all these running backs, and it's like, I haven't seen them once with the pads on. And that's the hard part of this.

1:18:39Robert Mays: And the next question I was going to ask you, it's a similar sort of deal. To me, we did a show earlier this week about the second-year players that can swing their units one way or another, depending on what their development looks like. Tyler Guyton is one of the top players on that list for me. When you've talked to people here, obviously, it's so early. I'm not going to ask you what you've seen from him. But as you've talked to people here about his year one to year two transition, what have they told you? I think the biggest one that I've heard is that just how committed he's been in the offseason and then just even our first chance getting to talk to him uh i believe it was during otas and where how he took a lot of accountability for not having a good year last year you know and to be honest i mean he was moving from being a right tackle at oklahoma to playing left tackle in the nfl raw player right stepping in for tyron smith who obviously you know the expectations in dallas for tyron smith every year he just kind of took for granted.

1:19:34So he had that. But I also say when we came out here last year, he had a couple of really good reps against Micah Parsons that made me think, I'm like, man, he's got this learning curve down. And then they had one of their preseason games was in Vegas. And so that was the game where Vegas played their starters all first half. And so he was getting a lot of good work against Max Crosby. And I was like, oh, yeah, he's getting thrown in the Wolves. And then week one, he gets Miles Garrett in Cleveland. And I'm like, oh, he'll be fine. He's just going to take him some time and he'll get used to it.

1:20:02He'll be fine. And they just, he struggled throughout the year. And I just think having that full year of, I'm a professional football player, I'm the starting left tackle. He's been a guy that Brian Schoenheimer spoke very highly about behind the scenes and how he's carried himself. And so, yeah, I don't see it to be like one of these deals where it's like, he struggles a little bit week one, week two, and now all of a sudden it's musical shares. They're going to give him every opportunity to be that guy. But he is certainly a guy that they expect to make that second-year leap. I'm not saying he's going to be Tyron Smith, but be a lot better than he was year one.

1:20:34Robert Mays: It is 3.05 Pacific time on August 24th. This is going to run in about 36 hours. I'm comfortable having this conversation. What do we think happens with Micah Parsons? He's going to get signed. It's going to be within the next three weeks. It could be already right when this podcast hits. It just happened. That's why I'm a little bit like, should we do this? Because this is going to happen before this even gets released. But we have to have the conversation. No, it could happen today, but it could also happen in two or three weeks. I don't see where they get back to Dallas and it's not done. And we had the blueprint for it last year with CeeDee Lamb.

1:21:09But I also say that CeeDee Lamb last year, Zach Martin the year before, in both cases, both players would tell you that they got off to slower starts than they would have liked as much as you get out here. and it's not maybe the traditional football that people were used to in the 70s and 80s, it still matters. It matters to be out here and to be around your teammates and getting this work in. And so I'm surprised that he did show up, to be honest with you. I know he said it last week. He said it to us about a month ago. But I still was surprised when he ran out there because I was like, I can't believe that your agent is cool with this because I would think that they would want you to stay back at your place.

1:21:49And, you know, but Micah Micah is really, especially with Lawrence being gone, DeMarcus Lawrence, he really wants to take on that leadership thing. And you can feel that he doesn't think he would have been able to do that from back in Dallas for the next three weeks. And so it would not surprise me if it got done in the next few days. But I thought it would also be done right before camp started because of a new defensive coordinator. I think there were they not think I mean, it's been pretty open out there that they were pretty close. a few months ago. But that was just Jerry talking to Micah and had the parameters all talked out.

1:22:25But then it came to the, all right, now call David Mulligetta. And that hasn't happened. Jerry hasn't talked to David. Steven hasn't talked to David. He hasn't talked to David Mulligetta. So that's the key there. And this isn't, I mean, there's levels to agents, and David Mulligetta and Todd France are at the absolute top of the business and they don't take deals.

1:22:47Robert Mays: But the problem is, this franchise helps put them at the top of the business because they drive the number up by waiting to do these things. No, there's no question about that. No, they don't handle their big contracts well at all. I don't think there's any argument for that. I mean, obviously, they would argue that. But you look across the rest of the league. No, this happens every offseason going into training camp, it seems like. And here's the thing that I always say. It's more interesting to me if there was one example. If you could just give me one time where they were like, no, man, they gave that guy two franchise tags and let him walk.

1:23:21Because there was some talk back with Dez, like, oh, hey, they'll just keep franchise tagging and let him walk. And because they haven't, and because they've always... They paid Dez. They paid Dak. They paid Ezekiel Elliott. They paid Zach Martin. They paid CeeDee Lamb. They're going to pay Micah Parsons, too. There's not that one example where you can go, well, if he does this, then it could be like that. No. The example is, you're going to get paid. All right.

1:23:39Robert Mays: So, two things I will say, playing a devil's advocate and arguing for the Cowboys here, which is a position I'm not comfortable with at all. That happened with Anthony Spencer. Correct? Didn't they give Anthony Spencer two tags and let him walk? They might have, but I will also... This is like 12 years ago. Sure. No, no, and that's fair. But there's also, like I said, there's levels of the agents. There's levels of that, too. There's no... That was when I first started covering the team. There was not the love for Anthony Spencer that there was for Dez Bryant, Ezekiel Elliott, Dak Prescott, Zach Martin.

1:24:09They liked those guys. They liked Byron Jones. They liked... Who was another guy that I liked? DeMarco Murray. But when people bring those up, they're just levels. They are not the guy that is selling all the jerseys face to the franchise. They're good players, but they're not the top, top guys. The top, top guys I'm talking about are the ones that they always get paid.

1:24:27Robert Mays: And again, maybe giving these guys a little bit of grace. Because I'm trying to do anything I can to twist myself into a pretzel and see this from a somewhat logical perspective. Okay, I do have one. Well, I think what happened with Jalen Smith and Ezekiel Elliott and them getting ahead of it before they had to and getting burned by it. Lael Collins was in there, too. Do you think that is potentially in the back of their minds as they drag their feet on some of this stuff? Because that's the only mild justification I can give. Well, yeah. And there's two that are even more recent than that. And that's Trayvon Diggs, who is recapping right now.

1:25:02Trayvon Diggs could have held out for more money, especially at the time when he got the contract. He was one of the top corners in the league. And then at that round, at the same time, Terrence Steele, the right tackle. and he hasn't played up to... But again, those weren't the top, top, reset the market type deals that Micah Parsons is going to get. So my one theory that I'll throw out that nobody in the organization has told me this, but if you want to play the, well, maybe this is something that is factoring in with them, I'll give you this one because you obviously covered the rest of the league.

1:25:31What about the fact that when that back deal got done that everyone's just like, and I do mean everyone, I don't care whoever's listening, I don't want to even hear your arguments on this. Oh, that's just what you do because the next quarterback will be like, I've seen three franchise quarterbacks all sign contracts, and they're not even within$5 million of that Dak deal. Josh Allen? That Josh Allen deal, I guarantee you, when the Cowboys saw that, they were like, we would have loved Dak to take that. Six years? Dak didn't want to take more than four. I think it was for$55 million. That's$5 million less than what Dak's making right now.

1:25:59So there's a part of me where I'm like, what if they look at it as, and this is not a good way to look at it, but I'm saying, what if they do as where they're like, you said all that was going to go up? Why should we just believe that? Oh, T.J. Watts had 40, or no, Miles Garrett's at 40, T.J. Watts had 41. then we just got to pay him 43, which you're going to have to, because Dave Mulligan is not going to sign off on some deal that's not resetting the defensive end market.

1:26:21Robert Mays: Well, the problem is the fact that Dak was working off of that second tag, you create so much leverage there. No question. No other quarterback has had. There's been no other quarterback outside of Lamar. Right. And Lamar was on his first tag. Dak played it out further than anyone else did to create a very unique amount of leverage in a way that other quarterbacks just don't have. True, but I will. Oh, I love this argument. I think most people in the NFL can't even really name many people other than Josh Allen on this Bills team that you can make the argument that he has the most impact of any one player.

1:26:55I would say that Mahomes is one, but you can make the argument for Josh Allen and Joe Burrow is probably right there, too. If Josh Allen says, I need 62 or I ain't showing up. Guess what happens? Josh Allen gets 62. Trust me, that happens. What is Buffalo going to do without him? He could have held out for whatever he wanted. It is true. What is Buffalo without Josh Allen?

1:27:13Robert Mays: I think this goes back, and we don't have to really get all of this, but this goes back a long, long, long time. Yeah, yeah. When they could have just gotten in front of this. I mean, remember when they didn't sign him when Russell Wilson signed that deal. And it's just, I think there's a history here of them waiting a little bit longer than they should have. And I think that plays into the way that Todd France and Dak have handled these situations. Since you cover the rest of the league and you follow it probably closer than I do, Is there a team that you think is even in the same category as them when it comes to waiting?

1:27:40Robert Mays: The Bengals. I mean, the Bengals over the last couple of years have done that consistently. Those are the two teams where I would say there is some sort of looming contract situation every single year heading into training camp. That's fair. The difference is the Bengals have a certain financial reality that does not apply to this team. No question. So at least with the Bengals, I can kind of hand wave it away where it's like, they don't throw cash around in the same way that most teams do. The Cowboys, in theory, could do whatever they want, and they choose not to do it. And that's why I always think it's good for the agents to wait, because they're like, this is the Cowboys.

1:28:12They got the money. Just hold out on this. This isn't some organization that doesn't have the cash or doesn't have the ability to work something out with you. I don't know. I'm not saying that nobody gives the Cowboys deals, but the top guys, if you have one of those super agents, I don't see you giving the Cowboys a deal. I don't see it happening. The contract that David Mulligata got for Deshaun Watson, to me, is the best job that any agent's done. That's incredible, what he was able to get there. Being the guy that's gotten that one, and loads of others, I find it very hard to believe that all of a sudden we're going to come out here and it's like, oh, wow!

1:28:50Micah took$37 million. Not happening.

1:28:52Robert Mays: I don't think that's happening. I think it's going to be a slight markup on what TJ Watt's deal was. But the thing is, it could have been a slight markup on what Miles Garrett's deal was if TJ Watt hadn't signed that deal. That's the frustrating part about this. No doubt. You mentioned injuries on the offensive side. On the defensive side, it's hard to keep track of how many guys aren't out there right now. If you look at the cornerback room specifically, I think the starting outside corners today in 11 on 11 were Andrew Booth and Kyrie Elam. Yes, sir. Those are corners four and five, maybe? Former high round draft picks.

1:29:25Robert Mays: I'm joking. I'm joking. Obviously, Michael Parsons isn't practicing, so you're digging into your edge depth, it's hard for me to even get a handle on who's supposed to be playing when the defense is healthy. So as we get toward week one, who in your mind, just on a very simple level, is going to be playing and who is not going to be playing among the starting 11? So Michael Parsons will be out there. He will definitely be playing. He's also in the position group that I think is the best on the team. It's deep. It's unbelievable. You forget that Sam Williams is just here. Yeah. And then this kid that they just drafted out of Boston College, Donovan Azaraku, has absolutely looked like a high-type draft pick.

1:30:04And then last year's second-round pick, Marshawn Nealon, dealt with some injuries last year. He could have a big... And then they signed Dante Fowler and Peyton Turner. And yeah, no, they're going to be fine with pass rushers. But yeah, Micah Parsons will be out there. The ones that won't week one is... And a big one is DeMarvion Overshown. if DeMarvion Overshawn is completely healthy coming off of last year, I mean, he just, he has that rare ability to just be a complete game changer. And we've seen glimpses of it, but he's had two major knee injuries the last two years. So he won't be ready for week one.

1:30:39Will he be ready at some point this year? Yeah. I saw him running. Yeah.

1:30:42Robert Mays: And there was an interception. He was running down the field and I was kind of surprised. I was like, oh my God, I thought that he was further away than that. Yeah. No, he will. He's been really positive about that going back to maybe three, four months ago. But yeah, no, there's nothing that makes me think he won't be back. At the latest would probably be November, but I could see him coming back possibly even in October, which would be huge considering two years with major knee injuries. Diggs, I don't think he'll be ready for week one. And that'll probably be... The way he was talking a couple days ago made it seem like, well, maybe he'll be back in late September, early October.

1:31:18he's a tough one to kind of put a finger on because he had a pretty serious knee issue as well that he's rehabbing from that he needed surgery on the other one and and the big one is savant revel jr who they drafted out east carolina who had the knee injury uh in college last year and a lot of people said if he didn't he's a borderline back into the first round second round for sure corner and so there was some thought he'd be ready for the start of camp but he hasn't been. And so it's hard to say that he would be ready for week one, especially where as a rookie, you know. So I think that that's where Kyrie Elam has to come in, and he'll be one of your starters.

1:31:55Deron Bland will be the other one. And then your nickel, to be honest with you, it could be Deron Bland. And I just keep the door cracked on the whole Stefan Gilmore thing. He's still a free agent. He's familiar with the organization. Obviously, he's an older guy, so he probably doesn't really care about being at training camp but he's not the guy that was you know defensive player of the year but he could be a guy that give you because here's the thing you wouldn't need stefan gilmore for 17 games you need him to kind of bridge the gap until revel gets back and digs get back and hey if he's playing great that's a great problem to have you know and so i i that's the one spot that if you're like okay where could they add someone until Gilmore signs somewhere else, I think that door is open as a possibility.

1:32:41So, corner is real thin. Safety is what it's been for the Cowboys for the last five, ten years. They don't put a lot of investment in it. They'll be fine, but it's not going to be like this game-changing. I know who Malik Hooker and Donovan Wilson are.

1:32:57Robert Mays: I've gotten used to that. The interior is the other spot that I think is interesting. Solomon Thomas was lining up with the ones a decent amount today. Does it feel like they're kind of drifting away from Mozzie Smith? How do they feel about where he's at heading into year three? Yeah, I don't think that they're drifting away from him. I think that they would have added somebody else if they were ready to just completely shut that door. And they haven't really done much. I mean, they direct Jay Toya, who is a seventh round pick, who I think has got a good chance to make the team. But that's not all of a sudden.

1:33:26Oh, well, we got our one tech now. We're ready to go. I mean, he's a rookie and defensive tackle is a position that traditionally will take you a little bit of time. um so it would not surprise me if you know Solomon Thomas and Osadigizua are the guys that get the most reps but Mazzy will be right in that mix too I mean the the question I have about defensive tackle is that they just don't have a lot of beef they don't have that big like 350 pound guy in there 320 pound guy Mazzy's down to 300 pounds and so I'm fascinated to see how that works with Matt Eberflus how he's going to get that to be able to be enough to stop the run because that's been one of the biggest issues in Dallas for a while.

1:34:04And I don't know. I'm not the football brain that Matt Eberflus or anybody in the organization is, but I would just think if you're having problems stopping the run, you probably need a 330-pound glass eater in the middle of that thing. And I go back to this, and several of us talk about this that covered the team. It's like it's been a while since there's been really good defensive tackle play in Dallas. And it's like how many teams really go get that ultimate goal that have just, eh, they're okay at defensive tackle. And that goes for college and pro.

1:34:37Robert Mays: I think you feel the teams that can't stop the run at this point. And if you're not going to have size, you have to be incredibly disruptive. And also, Dikizu is that sort of player. Whether the guy across from him is, I think that remains a question. And this is compounded by the fact that linebacker is also kind of a moving target right now. Before Overshawn gets back, in your mind, is it Jack Sanborn and Kenneth Murray? Is that the plan as it currently stands? It looks like that will be the case. But Maris Leofau has got a lot of upside. It's going to be hard to keep him off the field. They like him a lot.

1:35:08I know Mike McCarthy liked him a lot, too. A guy that's a third-round pick out of Notre Dame last year, he definitely showed some flashes last year. So with the ones, what we've seen out here, Sanborn's been in the middle with Murray as a weak side and Leofau as your strong side. But I just find it hard to believe, like even in, you know, nickel packages, that they're not going to try and find a way to keep Leo Fowl on the field. Now it's a new defense that he's learning, so it might take him some time. That's where Sanborn has a leg up, right?

1:35:37Robert Mays: 100%. But I think Leo Fowl's got a big time upside. Like the future of the linebacker position in Dallas is, to me, is DeMarvion Overshown and Maris Leo Fowl is the two linebackers that will be on the field the most as you move forward. But that's the thing with the Dallas Cowboys is it's, I mean, for the last 10, 15 years, that linebacker spot, as soon as you think that you got the guy, Bruce Carter, Sean Lee, Rolando McClain, like it just always these injuries. There's always, they just cannot keep guys healthy at linebacker at all. But if Overshown can stay healthy, he can be a game wrecker.

1:36:09He can be a Pro Bowl player, no doubt.

1:36:11Robert Mays: Sean Machoda, very much appreciate the time, sir. Always good to chat with you. We'll do it again soon. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Colton. Thank you so much to Daniel. Thank you so much to John. We will be back with our next version of this on Saturday. I believe we're going to have four writers, but don't hold me to that. Very much looking forward to dropping these to you guys weekly. For now, that's all we got. We'll be back on Monday. Talk to you soon.

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