TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Panthers, Browns and Commanders beat writers

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1:29Robert Mays: Hey guys, it's Robert Mays. Just wanted to give you a quick heads up that we recorded these beat writer conversations over the course of the past week before teams played their first preseason games. It shouldn't change too much about the topics discussed, but especially with something like the Browns quarterback battle and Shadur Sanders, I felt like it was context to keep in mind as you were listening. When it comes to Shadur's performance, I got to say I was impressed. I can tell you that in talking to folks in Cleveland this week, Shadur was behind Dylan Gabriel in the quarterback pecking order there.

1:59Robert Mays: That was honestly based on a lot of operational elements in the offense, spitting out play calls, working through progressions on time, setting and checking protections. I think based on how that offense was taught to the players at Colorado, Shadour came in with a little less foundational knowledge about how the position would operate in the league. And it just put him a little bit behind at the start of camp. But by all counts, it really matters to him. And he's been putting in the work to get himself there. And as far as Friday night goes, there was plenty of like the two rip throws he delivered over the middle.

2:29Robert Mays: The dig in that second touchdown, I think, showed the sort of accuracy and willingness to access that area of the field that we saw in college. Had a couple of quick game throws that probably should have been caught by better receivers. Made multiple plays outside the pocket and with his legs, which I think might be an encouraging sign. I'll be interested to see how well it holds up against better defenders. That tendency to try and escape out of the back of the pocket got him in trouble a couple times on Friday. and might become more of an issue when you're dealing with a truly messy pocket and not just avoiding a single rusher.

2:59Robert Mays: It's the preseason, but all in all, Fela Chador really made the most of that opportunity, had some really nice moments as a passer, and showed that he has something to offer in this competition. I think the Browns have come into this entire experiment with a willingness to be surprised. The dice roll on Chador is one you take when you don't have an answer at the position and you're trying to give yourself every chance to find one. We'll see what the rest of camp and the rest of the preseason look like as Gabriel and Shadur get more opportunities. Okay, with that, let's get to the show. Today, it's another edition of our Beat Writer Notebooks from Training Camp, including conversations with our Panthers writer here at The Athletic, Joe Person, our Browns writer, Zach Jackson, and our Commander's writer, Nicky Javala.

3:38Robert Mays: Hope you guys enjoy.

3:43Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Carolina Panthers writer here at The Athletic, Joe Person. Joe, how are you doing? I'm good. I was just remembering how you and I did this at least one summer, maybe two, on the hill in Spartanburg, overlooking the Wofford College fields. It was nice down there. I was always blown away by how well-manicured everything was. And I enjoy those teams that go away, and it's a little bit of a summer campy feel. This is a little bit more convenient, though, the fact that it's at the stadium, and now we're just in the stadium right now. The logistics are a little bit simpler with them being in Charlotte.

4:15I have to say nice things about Walford because they got a lot of my money for my oldest daughter. But she's out now. I kind of miss going down there for the first weekend. But you're right. This is all very easy to roll out of bed and come to training camp.

4:30Robert Mays: I drove from Latrobe to get here over the last day or so. And part of the reason that I kind of went out of my way is that I really wanted to come here. I just am really intrigued by this team. We did a show earlier this offseason about our lingering questions from last year. Just because when you're talking about all 32 teams, there's really no way to dig deep on individual subjects during the season. And so I wanted to go back and be like, OK, how real was this Bryce Young thing? Like, how real was it? And I went back and watched. And Derek is a little bit hesitant still. I'm kind of bought it.

5:00Robert Mays: Like, I really do think there's a lot to hang your hat on for what he was in the back half of the year. And now they go out. They get T-Mac. You have some young pass catchers that I think their slots make more sense because T-Mac is here. You bring back Shuba Hubbard. The offensive line is still intact. How much realistic optimism and justified optimism do you think there is for what this offense can be this year? I think it's justified. And you really hit on many of the reasons why. I mean, first of all, and this is interesting, too. Last year at this time, this was a new offense for Bryce. And he'd already been through.

5:36It was on to his third play caller as a pro player, because we know the Frank Reich, Thomas Brown stuff. But I think Canalis...

5:45Robert Mays: It's the exact same thing with Caleb Williams this year. He's on his third play caller because it was Thomas Brown and Shane Waldron. Thomas Brown is always part of these musical chairs moments. Thomas Brown is the best guy, too. But I'm sure you saw this from afar, but I think Canalis realized that last year, sitting Bryce those first two preseason games was a mistake. And he's going to play this week against Cleveland. He's going to play next week against Houston. And not going to play a lot, but getting those full-speed game reps is important. And I think Canalis, Pete Carroll used to do that, still does.

6:24And I think it's going to be good for Bryce and the offense to maybe hit the ground running in Week 1 instead of, as you said, taking until so late in the season to come together. But, man, when it did, Week 18 in Atlanta was a blast. It was fun watching that offense. And, you know, Panthers hope that's a sign of things to come.

6:46Robert Mays: When you ask people here, OK, year one to year two, what is going to be different about this? I think their answers make sense. It was establishing kind of a baseline for what the offense was supposed to be last year, kind of keeping it sleek, streamlined, whether that's the run game or what they were asking of the quarterback. You bring back a majority of the same component pieces as far as the starters go this year. And I think it's allowed them to build a little bit more diversity into what the run game is going to be. And then it's putting more on Bryce's plate. Really, the only new piece you're worried about working in is T-Mac.

7:16Robert Mays: Other than that, it's all guys who have been here. And so I think that the ability to have some flexibility at the line of scrimmage, to have him be more in control, you're starting to see that grow. And we never know with rookies. But this idea that you can drop this big target X receiver into this equation while everyone else is slowly growing and kind of adding that low layers to this offense. I don't know what the ceiling for this group is, but I don't know, man. I kind of think they might be pretty good. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. And we've seen some up and down days from McMillan. And some of that's to be expected.

7:51And honestly, most of his struggles have been press coverage. And they're throwing it at him every day, and not by accident, whether it's J.C. Horn, who's now, of course, injured after this car wreck. But he and Mike Jackson, they're just up in his face, every one-on-one rep, most team reps. And that's how he's going to learn. I think that's great. And he's had some days where it wasn't real pretty. But when he gets downfield, and he's one of these guys, as you know, he's always open. That catch radius, the hands, all of it. And so he's good. This offense, it could be fun. The line is such a key to it.

8:32But they brought back the entire offense. And not just the first five. It's like the first eight or nine guys.

8:38Robert Mays: Brady Christensen, Cade Mays. All the depth pieces are even still here. I love that you brought up the J.C. Horn, Mike Jackson part of this. Because I think part of the... Not that there was doubts. But if you had any reservations about McMillan, it was the physicality that he's bringing to the game. I said this pre-draft. He's like a volleyball player when you watch him in ways both good and bad. The catch radius, just the athleticism, how flexible he is. But the physicality to me is like, where are we going to get that? Is that going to come? And I had a fun nugget talking to a coach this morning when they said, early in camp, they were purposefully not throwing flex when there would be defensive holding.

9:13Robert Mays: They were essentially just making him work through it, playing against J.C. Horn, because they didn't want to cut him any breaks. And even a couple weeks in, they're already seeing some of the benefits of that, where the increased physicality is starting to emerge. And that's how you can start getting really excited about what the total package of Ted Rowe and McMillan can be. Yeah, I agree. And it's funny, when we talked to him last week, he said, I guess I've got to earn my stripes. I'm not getting any calls out here. So, he either heard about the little deal, or he was just recognizing he wasn't getting any flags.

9:47and has brought to mind Cam Newton saying he wasn't old enough to get a roughing call from Ed Hockley a number of years ago. But, yeah, we're talking about this offense. We haven't even mentioned JT Sanders. Like, I always get these camp crushes on tight ends. And so, Jatavian Sanders, he's getting a ton of reps because of Tommy Trumbull's back injury. But he came back. And, again, you're watching 32 teams, So I don't expect you.

10:17Robert Mays: No, I like lighter, leaner and faster. I have heard this and I do think that he's an important piece of the offense. Again, we're thinking about what the growth looks like from some of the young players. And I think Leggett is also part of that, which we can talk about. But JT Sanders, the way that they want to play and being really flexible and using a little bit more tempo. If you have two tight ends on the field and you get a certain type of defense, maybe you get big nickel as a result of that. or you're able to dictate personnel, the ability for him to split out creates a flexibility within this offense that I think they really want to tap into.

10:48Robert Mays: And I don't know how much we can or can't say, but during 7-on-7 today, he's lined up as the solo isolated receiver with three wide receivers to the left side. And so I do think that he's an important inflection point for how they want to deploy this personnel. So the fact that he has come back in a little better shape, he feels a little bit more dynamic. I do think that's actually really important. Yeah, yeah. He was on his way to a pretty damn good year last year. And out here against the Chiefs, week 13, whatever it was, he got flipped and landed on his head after a catch, yards after a catch.

11:23And he missed a game. He avoided serious injury. But he wasn't really the same after his targets went way down. So he's someone, I know this is, you're not doing a fantasy show, But fantasy folks might want to keep their eye on JT Sanders.

11:39Robert Mays: I do think that he's going to play a decent amount, even with Tommy Schremble back in the fold. And the Leggett part of this that I think is really important. We talked about this in the moment when they drafted McMillan, but it's something that came up in conversation this morning. Leggett was forced into a role where he was having to play the X receiver because they didn't have another one. And now, with McMillan in the fold, you're able to deploy Leggett in the way he should be used, where he's this burner, take the top off, we're creating separation for him. The lack of nuance in his game matters less because McMillan is here.

12:12Robert Mays: And that's why I'm really excited about this, because not only is Ted Rowe McMillan a really good player in his own right, I think that he accentuates the strengths of the other guys in the receiving room in a way that makes everybody better, potentially. Yeah, I mean, you said that very well. I mean, I don't have a ton to add on Xavier Leggett. He's got to be more consistent with his hands. I'd like to see him. I've said this to somebody this week. Chuba Hubbard and Tommy Tremble, even through this back injury, they're out there after practice for a half hour, 40 minutes, every day on the jugs machine.

12:49One of these days I'd like to look out there and see Xavier Leggett. I'm sure he's doing his own thing. I'm not suggesting he's not working at it. But those are two guys who very visibly have improved their hands, you know, through the, you know, strength of a thousand passes being shot at them a day out of the jug. So it's yeah, it's an interesting offense. It's intriguing. Are they going to be a situation where they're going to have to outscore the opponent every week? You know, I know we're going to turn to the defense at some point.

13:22Robert Mays: Two more questions about the offense for you. One, any personnel curiosities? It all kind of feels settled. Rico Dattles is the No. 2 back here. I think he'll have a role. They really like him. Other than that, it kind of feels like all the pieces are kind of in place. Coker and Thielen will have their roles. I guess Hunter Renfro is kind of the other big question. That's right. What sort of prominence do you think he has within this offense? Because apparently, even outside of what you guys are seeing, they've really liked what they've seen from him so far. Yeah, they do. And they've been very cautious with him with his hamstring injury.

13:54because of what you just said. They think he adds a real element from that slot. A little different slot than Thielen, where he's so shifty, heck of a route runner. Dabo Sweeney was here a couple weeks ago. He said, there are route runners and there are craftsmen. And Hunter Renvo is a craftsman. And so, yeah, that was the name that immediately came to mind in terms of anybody else we should talk about for this offense. I like this Bryson Tremaine guy, second year out of Stanford, probably a practice squad we saw make great catches today against the Browns. But Hunter Renfro, I mean, it's tricky.

14:38He was out of football for a year. I mean, he's already dealing with soft tissue stuff, but he's worth keeping an eye on.

14:45Robert Mays: And just one more beat on the fantasy stuff. It seems to me, just by virtue of his role here, the fact that it's been day one with the ones from the start, McMillan is going to be the focal point of the passing game. Would you say that's a fair representation? Sure feels like it. Yeah. I mean, even today, and we're taping this on Wednesday after this joint practice with the Browns. I mean, you saw he drops the ball in the end zone. Paul is a little behind him, although Canales said, you know, Bryce putting it in a spot where the defender would not be. So McMallon drops that. But then two minutes later, Bryce is going back to him in the end zone, catches it to wrap up seven on sevens.

15:23Robert Mays: And the last bit of context, I think, you know, with Bryce last year, it was OK. Now he's established himself as he deserves a chance to prove that he's the guy, right? Like he is our guy for 2025. The optimism here, I think, goes beyond that. I don't think there's any lingering doubt about whether Bryce Young is the guy they want to be the quarterback of this team moving forward. And I was curious about that, because how excited are they for him, really? This is a team that benched him at one point last year. So is this a, oh yeah, for this year, he'll get another chance. He's our best option.

15:55Robert Mays: Or is this, we really believe in what we can build around Bryce Young moving forward? And it really does seem to be, even in casual conversation, the latter when you talk to people in the building. I think so. I mean, the one area, and we're all careful when it comes to money. And so we talked to and I've had private conversations with folks in the building, but also we talked to Brant Tillis last week. Their cap and contract guy, really bright guy who helped do Pat Mahomes contract, the record setting contract. And so we were talking about to tell us about a second contract for Bryce. And he said, you know, I've only had to do one.

16:38And Pat made it pretty obvious. He said, I'm not going to sit up here and start saying when or if. But he called Bryce an ascending player. And I think that's a great description because he hasn't arrived yet. But the hope and the belief from all the decision makers and his teammates in this building is that he's going to get there. He is ascending on his way to being a playoff type quarterback and a guy that's going to get very rich with his second contract. Not there yet. So I do think there is a little wait and see, but it is a very optimistic wait and see.

17:18Robert Mays: I think that's totally fair. Where he fits and at what level you think he should be paid, you should absolutely wait until the end of this season. We got half a year where he looked like a playable NFL quarterback. I feel like I am cautiously optimistic. I think a lot of people here are optimistic. But there's no reason that I think you have to pay him right now. The market is not going up for a player like Bryce Young. I think we kind of know, even if it's in the optimistic case, you're paying him like the Goffs and the Tuas and things like that. That market's kind of set. I don't think you're getting ahead of any market if you're having to pay Bryce Young right now.

17:50Robert Mays: So I'm not surprised to hear that at all. All of this excitement about the offense is potentially offset with some doubts about the defense. This team spent a lot of money in free agency. A lot. And I think the way they shopped in free agency totally tracks to me. Bobby Brown, Tashaun Wharton, Trevon Merrick. This is a team that is not close, and they know that. And so they're building in free agency with second contract guys that are young, that have a little bit of a runway. They'll be better on defense. The question is, will they be good enough to be competitive if their offense does turn into the sort of unit I think it can be?

18:26Robert Mays: Where would you sit with that right now? Yeah, I'm a little skeptical. I really am. And maybe that's from having sat through a season and watch them give up 3000 passing yards. It's one of the least talented defenses I've ever seen in an NFL field for an entire season. And they knew that they were they were under no illusions to be different. That's right. And so you're not going to fix that in one offseason. But they do get Derek Brown back, which will help against the run. And and that was where they were really bad. I said 3 ,000 rushing yards they gave up. Only four teams have ever done that.

19:02And so what you had was second and short, third and short. There's no pass rush. There was just no third and longs where Jadavion Clowney or DJ Wanham could go eat, as they said. And so I don't know. I look at this edge rusher group. Clowney wasn't a great fit for a young coaching staff. They cut him. You know, they got Pat Jones from Minnesota. He's OK. He's OK. He's a good third or fourth rusher. And they drafted these guys in the second and third round. Nick Scorton and Prince Lee, Ooman Mielin. I don't know. I'm just a little skeptical about where the pass rush is going to come from.

19:43Robert Mays: I think it's an interesting combination because Scorton, I think, has a high floor because of the play style that he brings. He's going to be an edge setter. He's going to be a tone setter. I love that as you're trying to build an attitude on defense. Prince Lee is a bendy, undersized guy. When you watch him out there in one-on-ones against the offensive line, he's just dramatically undersized. And so I think he has a high ceiling when it comes to the pass rush element of it. But I think it's going to be a little bit of a learning curve because he is just underdeveloped physically compared to some of these other guys.

20:12Robert Mays: Situational, you'll be able to use him. But how much he'll be able to contribute in year one as he learns how to deploy that skill set in the NFL, I think that's going to be the biggest question. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to gloss over DJ Wadham. I like him. He is a guy, he had this terrible health thing where he had infection and MRSA, and so he didn't step on the field until, where were we? Germany. He finally got to, it was week 10, and makes his debut, and he made an impact. And I don't think he's a 15-set guy, but maybe he gets you 10 or 11, and that would be, you'd take it from what you saw from this defense last year.

20:52Robert Mays: I think the goal on defense here should be, let's not be embarrassing, right? Let's maybe be like a not bottom eight defense, I think is a realistic goal. And then how many guys are we going to find that we can build with moving forward? When we get to the end of this season, how many pieces do we consider building blocks? By the end of the year, do we feel good about Derek Brown, Bobby Brown, Princely, Scorton, Trevin Mary, and JC Horn? Do we feel like we have a real foundation with which to build? You mentioned it. You can only do so much in one offseason. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say the two spots where it's like, all right, this is we have stopgaps for now.

21:29Robert Mays: We know we need to get better here over the next two years. Offball linebacker where Christian Roseboom is acceptable, but you need to get better than that. And Mike Jackson is your second outside corner spot. Those are the two spots that would come to mind. And maybe one of the safety spots. Yes. You know, they right now they're lining up Merrick and Nick Scott. Nick Scott was was not real good for them last year. but but maybe that's where they're hoping like they did draft in the fourth round latham ransom so i think latham ransom will get a shot yeah i think by the time we start some football games i think that latham ransom will absolutely have a chance to be some be a player and he should i mean again not to sit here and slander nick scott he's a fine special teams player good depth guy but i think you'd want latham ransom opposite trade then you got to it may not be two guys with great range.

22:22And that could be an issue. But both those guys will be very good in run support.

22:28Robert Mays: Anything else about the defensive front of mind for you? Anybody that's flashed? Any lingering concerns or anxieties you have, just other than the general talent level on that side of the ball? Well, I told you on the field I wasn't going to bring this guy's name up. But here I go with Corey Thornton, the third undrafted. They like Corey Thornton, right? He played four years at Central Florida. He finished at Louisville. Undrafted. He's long. You see these corners. It is right cut out of the cloth of the Pete Carroll Seattle defense. Long corners, long arms, six foot one or taller. And Corey Thornton, we don't need to waste a lot of breath on him.

23:05But he's going to make the team and be maybe in the rotation.

23:10Robert Mays: Here's why I think the Corey Thornton thing is worth mentioning. They really like Corey Thornton. That's where this team is on a development timeline on defense. It's all about how many guys can we find? How many guys can we stumble into? And I really appreciate what Dan Morgan in the front office did in terms of how they approach the defense. But sometimes these front offices, they try to accelerate the timeline. They want to get ahead of themselves with the types of players they're bringing into the building. Clowning is a one-year stopgap thing. We just need bodies, right? This year specifically, it's like, we're going to be really young and we're going to see what we got.

23:43Robert Mays: And I think based on where this team is, it's the exact correct way to think about it. And that's how a guy like Corey Thornton comes into the mix. There aren't a lot of people that they've invested in. They're going to block his opportunities to show what he can do, whether it's in practice or elsewhere. So I think it's worth bringing up just with where this team is and how open-minded they are about finding players, because that's the stage they're currently in, especially on that side of the ball. Yeah, yeah. I like the way you look at that, because I'm just kind of thinking about, are they going to be any better than next year?

24:17or excuse me, last year. They have to be, by the way.

24:20Robert Mays: Just by the law of averages, they have to be. But bigger picture, you're right. Like, what about 26? What about 27? And we've got some pieces they hope that they can build around. Yeah, and I think that you have some young pieces on both sides of the ball where you hope they can be foundational, but this is all going to come back to the quarterback. And I think the flashes he showed last year, again, it's why I felt compelled to get my ass down here because I think that there are a lot of reasons to be at least intrigued by this team at the very least. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, it's why you woke up at four in the morning in West Virginia and got in your rental car.

24:58Robert Mays: I wasn't going to mention that, but that is what happened today. I'm doing okay, all things considered. Joe Persson, always great to see you, sir. Really appreciate the time. We'll do this again very soon. All right, buddy. Likewise. Hey, everyone. Michael Beller for Behind the Scenes at The Athletic Football Show here. I run TAFs and our college football show, The Audible at The Athletic. And so that means I've got a lot of tasks on my plate. Most of those are fun to do. There's a reason why I'm in the business. But if I'm being honest, there's probably one or two that I wouldn't mind being able to shift off of my plate.

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28:52Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Browns writer here at The Athletic, Zach Jackson. Zach, how are you doing? Getting older out here every day, but otherwise, I'm good. I feel the exact same way. My back has been... This one in particular has been trying me, unfortunately. But it's been great. It's been great to see everybody. It's great to see you. Anything going on with this team? Just a little bit. Probably wish there was more completed passes. It's been a whirlwind start. Some of it expected, some of it not. Obviously, losing Martin Emerson is a huge blow. I think even though they don't come out and say it, I think there's an understanding here of the awkward spot that this franchise is in.

29:25I still think there's some excitement. I don't think this necessarily has to be one of the worst teams in the league. But this quarterback situation does not appear to be great. It appears Joe Flacco is going to win it going away, which is fine. But how long is it going to hold up? And what are they going to do after that? And how do things sort out? Like 10 days into camp, Robert, we don't know. There are various reasons we don't have any other answers on that. But we really don't know. So it's back out here in an hour and see what happens.

29:50Robert Mays: We're recording this before practice. And so I'm going to ask you just mechanically, what has this looked like? How have they split it up? What is the actual collection of reps? And why, in your mind, is Joe Flacco really taking a substantial lead here? So all through the spring, there was, by design, extra reps for everybody. Even rookie minicamp here, which is usually super instructional. They had competitive seven on seven, 11 on 11 periods because they said we have to see the quarterbacks throw. So what it was for the first four days, essentially the first week here, was very structured. It was Kenny and Joe alternating.

30:23But Joe got two days off of the competitive periods because he's done this. It was Shador and Dylan alternating with Dylan dabbling with the ones and getting more reps overall. And then what happened is on the end of day four, Kenny Pickett gets hurt. And so they had said they had always planned to deviate away from the simultaneous seven-on-sevens and get more in. But things change because he's been out here for practice with the exception of three days, but in no competitive drills. And they just they have to take care of a hamstring so you don't lose him for the season. So that has put Flacco's rep count way up, which was probably going to be up day eight or nine compared to the first few days anyway.

30:58And it's led to an interesting situation to where Dylan has really struggled on three of the days, like really noticeably struggled. Shador has been better, but then had a sore arm and didn't throw Saturday. So he's coming back today. Kenny Pickett is not coming all the way back today. But they're only here for one more day. They go to Carolina. And I think that was always, you know, you're against another team. That's the most important evaluation. But the evaluation here is mixed for many reasons.

31:22Robert Mays: Joe Flacco winning the starting job now. I think there are a couple of different ways to look at this. One, he gives you a certain floor. I can understand that to an extent, right? Because we have the visions of him a couple years ago when this team made the playoffs. I think the floor with Joe Flacco is lower than we probably want to believe it is It's based on how that season went, but also how last season went when he was in Indianapolis. But even if he does give you a little bit of that floor, and I'm with you, I think there's a path for this team to not be the worst team in the league because the offensive line talent is still pretty good.

31:50Robert Mays: The defensive talent is still pretty good. My question is, what is the two or three year plan? Because if Joe Flacco is your starting quarterback this year, and you're a 7-10, 8-9 team, are you going to regret not getting more looks at Dylan Grabiel and Shador Sanders? Does that matter if you're going to draft a quarterback again next year? Your offensive line is good now, but you don't have any young pieces. It's a strange team because I think some of the sky is falling. Look at it for 2025 is probably overstated. But the sky is falling. Look at it over the next two years. I don't think is that overstated.

32:21Well, every team opens camp, right? And everybody's healthy and everybody's undefeated and everybody's going to the playoffs. Except here, the owner is saying, yes, we definitely need to see the rookies play this year before we make our big decision next April. So what are your expectations for the Browns? There they are. And then he follows that up by saying, yes, the coach knows this. And of course, they all signed up for this together. And this is what it is. Before last week, what did Jimmy Haslam say when he talked? We took the big swing and miss at quarterback. And that cap hit's not going away.

32:49The draft picks you gave away just show up every single time you watch this team practice. So how's it going to go, Robert? The rookies have to play. Dylan Gabriel, to me, looks in no way ready to play in the NFL. and all indications publicly and privately are Shadour is in no way ready. Now, can that change by November? Sure. I think there's a path to keeping all four and seeing what happens because I don't know that either rookie is ready to be your backup. And what if Joe gets hurt in week one? It can happen to any quarterback, but especially a 40-year-old, right? So the conversation about Joe's floor is valid.

33:22And if you are looking to the future, why play a 40-year-old? Great question. He's been in this locker room before. He's been in this offense before. This has been so devoid of leadership. It's been such a constant mess. Nine starting quarterbacks in the last two years. That Joe Flacco's cachet, Joe Flacco's arm, Joe Flacco's presence give you that steadying force. When you look at that schedule, they just have to try like hell to win two games. And that's the guy that by far, to me, maybe it's different in a week, but that's by far the guy that gives you the best chance to do that.

33:53Robert Mays: I was talking about the floor. It was relative to the league in general, not the floor relative to the rookies. And I think that's something that's worth considering. It's like his floor is maybe lower than a veteran stopgap quarterback in your mind, but it's certainly higher than the third and fifth round picks that you could put out there. Well, when you talk about floor and you're in this building. I was looking at numbers the other day just because I was curious about something. And I looked up offensive EPA per play since 2000 and they're dead last. The Bears are 31st. It's just some things like our organizational elements that persist over time through multiple regimes, multiple quarterbacks, just how it's been here for a very long time.

34:30Robert Mays: The floor is lower than you think it is every single time. Let me give you a number. In that stadium, 10 miles up the road, Joe Flacco is the third winningest quarterback of all time in that stadium. Baker Mayfield has the most wins. Ben Roethlisberger has the second most wins. And Joe Flacco has the third most wins. What is the ideal outcome for this team on offense? Does it matter what the results are? Does it matter what the win-loss column is? Because that's part of this too, is that if there's a mandate that we have to play the rookies because we have to get some information on them before we move forward.

35:03Robert Mays: Kevin Stefanski, they were picking second overall last year. Can you afford to go four and 13 again, even if you just got a contract extension? There's so many potentially competing motivations here that it's just hard for me to square how it's all supposed to come together in a cohesive way. Yeah. And we talk about the quarterbacks and we watch the quarterbacks every minute out here, right? But for the starting offensive linemen, the best four, all four really good careers in their own right. They're only signed through this year. And they're all 30 or above. So that is an interesting question.

35:33So what's it look like? Well, it's supposed to look like Quinshawn Judkins getting 200, 250 touches, proving himself to be a number one running back going forward, even if he's not a superstar right away. He's not here. It's that offensive line giving you a chance. It's David Njoku playing for another new contract and trying to achieve a level of consistency that he never has. So it's really interesting. We know what a Stefanski offense looks like. And for four magical games, we saw Joe Flacco run that offense like a few others have. So that is your shell answer to what it looks like. And then, do guys stay healthy?

36:08Do guys perform? Can you run the ball? They couldn't run the ball at all last year, but they couldn't do anything. But not being able to run the ball put just a burden on everybody. The O-line, the defense, the quarterback, the coaches, all involved.

36:18Robert Mays: So without Quinchot Drunk into the mix here, is there a chance that it's just Dylan Sampson getting 275 touches behind a pretty decent offensive line? and that's how you build the foundation of this thing? Dylan Sampson listed at 200 pounds, and in no way is he 200 pounds. It's not going to be your workhorse back. Jerome Ford was always going to be 1A with an asterisk. He's done it. He's a productive player. He's been best in a No. 2 role, in a complimentary role. He can really run. He's in a contract year. I don't know whose team he's going to be on on November 1st, but he's going to get opportunities here.

36:47Sampson's going to get opportunities here. If they're not going to have Judkins, and with each day, it looks less and less likely they'd have him for the start of the year, regardless of what the legal outcome is, they're going to have to go get a bigger back because they don't have that guy. Ford's listed generously at 208. And like I said, Dylan Sampson has impressed me a couple days out here, but he's tiny. He is a third down back who's just learning the ropes of the NFL.

37:08Robert Mays: It feels like the worst case scenario here is you get a couple flashes of the rookies. And even over the course of the season, you get to the end of the year and you don't know. Isn't that probably the worst thing that can happen is that you don't have clarity on how you should move forward no matter what the actual, again, numbers and wins and losses end up looking like? It is. However, Shador being a fifth-round pick means if he shows you a little of anything, you bring him back, and he doesn't necessarily affect what you do next day. I think that's right. So in your mind, it's Shador as that guy more than Dylan Gabriel based on what you've seen so far in camp.

37:40The talent is not close, right? So how are they going to handle this week, let alone three months from now? I don't know. But since day one out here, Shador Sanders has looked to me like an NFL quarterback. And of nine days so far, the best throw of the day has gone to him more than anyone else. So how's he going to handle pressure? How's he going to handle continuing to learn everything, which all these rookie quarterbacks do? Right. All of them were in hurry up offenses, not, you know, just one read. All the stuff that we could go through, everybody knows. Right. So but but Shador has talent.

38:11He has the accuracy is really impressive when he's on. You know, it's one of those things. It's like watching a three point shooter. You don't need to watch it go in if you see his hand. So when Shador makes those good throws, so what's going to happen to him in these joint practices and preseason games, there's probably going to be some good and bad. Can he progress with that? Can he learn from all that and go forward? He can be potentially a starting quarterback in this league, but I don't think you have to or probably not going to get to make that decision over the next five months. Last question about the offense.

38:39Robert Mays: Pass catchers. How do we think the role shake out? How does the hierarchy shake out? What sort of targets are we looking at? How is that room going to be built and deployed in your life? If Deontay Johnson makes the team, then he's going to play. He has no guaranteed money. We'll see. He's been mostly running with the twos so far. Jerry Judy is the clear No. 1. We have not seen a ton of great chemistry with Jerry or Njoku in Flacco yet. It's the third practice in August. We'll see that. But they made a big bet on keeping Cedric Tillman, who had a really good stretch last year before missing the rest of the year with a concussion.

39:12They need him to be a red zone playmaker. He has real size, and they need him to use it.

39:16Robert Mays: This team is so desperate to have one of those draft picks hit. They're so, so desperate to have one of those third round picks become something. Well, OK, here's your guy, Harold Shannon. Yeah. Third round tight end. He's going to play receiver. He's going to play fullback. He's going to play for this team. And he might be why David Njoku moves on from this team three months from now or certainly eight months from now. I was mostly it was the third round picks in the last four years. Like this is actually a full draft. Like in theory, you could get a couple of players from this draft, even though starting off with the Judkins thing is just this team.

39:45Robert Mays: and its inability to extract value from draft picks over the last five years is crushing them. Yeah, it hurts. It hurts when you watch them out here, and it certainly hurts over the course of the season when you have natural things go up and down. The Emerson thing is brutal, because if you're trying to paint a picture of optimism for this team, the defense still has a ton of talent. We saw this be the best defense in football two years ago, and a lot of those component parts are still here. So if you're trying to build the positive case for the defense with Emerson already removed for the mix, what does it look like to you?

40:14that miles garrett and denzel ward both look absolutely phenomenal out here and like which team has a better one two combo at the top of their right some you can discuss some but there's not a bunch clearly better so um can they bring along some of these young guys to to free up miles and to make the plays that are there because miles is miles um and then at linebacker you know you lost your best linebacker in jeremiah wussu coromoa that's andrew barry's best draft pick by the way his second best draft pick martin emerson you don't have those guys right so greg newsom in a contract year has to deliver.

40:44Cameron Mitchell, who played pretty well as a rookie, he was in and out of the lineup with some injury stuff. He's now going to get a chance to be the slot corner. Like, I think there's a chance he's OK. We don't know right now. So they're going to pop Newsom outside. That's the plan. Yes. Yes. OK. It just has to be. Yeah. Right. And Newsom looks good here. So the second round linebacker, Carson Schlesinger, appears off to a good start. Mason Graham appears off to a good start. You know, they were willing to give Malik Collins a 30 years old because they thought they needed that guy. They think he's a fit for the Schwartz defense.

41:09So, yeah, Robert, I think it's 95 and 21 are what they are. You create some turnovers. You cash a couple of them in. And you just drag teams into brawls. And that's why the Judkins absence looms so large. Because that was part of your blueprint.

41:21Robert Mays: What does the defensive line rotation look like? Just the front four and then the guys behind them as it currently stands right now. So the two clear top defensive tackles are Mason Graham, the first round pick, and Malik Collins. That's just not a lot of beef, man. You're trying to create havoc with that group. And the guy you're waiting for is Mike Hall, the second rounder last year, who's the same thing. He's a pass rush guy. he's coming off a knee injury. He's not in camp yet. So you got to develop some guys. They had a seventh rounder last year, Juwan Briggs, who played at the very end of the season and showed some things.

41:48He's going to have a chance here. They have Shelby Harris here at the end of his career. He's been a good player here the last two years. So you need him to be healthy and produce. The two young ends, McGuire and Wright, they're interesting guys.

41:59Robert Mays: Yeah, they're compelling players. There's no doubt about that. And Wright, I thought last year, was really starting to take off. And he had an injury and missed the rest of the year. So is he healthy? Can he find that stride? I mean, they're not miles garrett but the thought here whether they say it or not is like miles is going to put you in position to succeed you're going to get some one-on-one third down pass rush opportunities and if you win them we're all going to benefit from it let's go more existential here as we round this out what's the plan what needs to happen here right if this team is bad do you think that kevin stefanski and andrew barry keep their jobs what's the rationale for why there seems to have been so much confidence and despite the recent results like where's just what do you think Jimmy Haslam is thinking right now about how the next year of Browns football has to unfold?

42:42So we only hear from Jimmy Haslam twice a year. And in both times, in March at the owners' meetings and just last week, he's made comments that can be fairly and have been construed as these guys are safe. Well, number one, all this is he supposed to say. So to me, it comes down to this, Robert. Do they win four or five games? Does the rookie class look good? And specifically, does a rookie quarterback play with competence at the end so these games are watchable? right and then in general is it a year where you have your ups and downs and it comes down to a miskick or miles garrett being a hero or whatever or do you have more player arrests or people flying banners over the stadium saying sell the team like there there are levels of ugly here and it could be like the early vibe is not good i think this team is going to be awful but i said it in march and i'm gonna continue to say it like there this is not the 32nd most talented roster no no you know like this is a proven defensive coordinator proven stars on this defense and guys who should not have been on a three win team last year.

43:35So anything in the passing game, anything in the running game, you know, anything, just competent football and steal a win early. You don't know how it's going to go. They were so bad last year. I think it was all time lowest yards per play for a team after five games. And you know, they had one win in there, but they just had other chances and they just could never convert them. So, you know, it's going to be ugly early in the year and you got to turn that into making those turnovers and hoping your defensive stars can carry you.

43:58Robert Mays: I think that makes perfect sense. We were going into this being like, the reason we've kept these guys is we think they're the right people for the long-term health of the franchise. Even though it's been ugly, the quarterback was a huge, huge part of that. Who knows how much of a hand they had in picking that quarterback. So do they get another chance because we think they're the right leadership? I get that. But if it gets really ugly and embarrassing by the end of the season, things like that change. The problem for me is I think some of the stopgaps to embarrassment were, we're going to tap back into Kevin Stefanski 2021 and 2022 offense.

44:26Robert Mays: We're going to go downhill. We're going to run the ball with this offensive line. You remove the running back from that equation. That gets harder. On defense, we still have a lot of talent in the secondary. We feel like I can tap back into what we were in 2023. You remove Martin Emerson from that equation. That, to me, becomes the problem. Even the best version of this team, we've started to pull out the Django blocks. I think the path to embarrassment gets a little bit cleaner based on what has happened over the last month. They're very thin. One of the primary reasons is bad drafting. Look at the third and fourth round picks.

44:54That's before you even take into account that they didn't have a first rounder for three years.

44:57Robert Mays: Yeah. With other teams, it's like, oh, the third and fourth round picks aren't hitting. That's normal. But when you only have third and fourth round picks, it's really important for those guys to hit. Correct. And you just need guys ready to step in. And DeJuan Jones could be a really good fourth round pick. Jerome Ford has been a really good fifth round pick. If this group has to be ready, Fannin just turned 21 years old. He just started playing tight end two years ago. He's got to be ready to play. And he might play wide receiver for this team. Like Dylan Samson, fourth round, they obviously liked him.

45:23They'd already selected one running back. He's got to go in and he's got to make plays or else they're going to have to find a running back because they're going to have to run the ball between the tackles and that's never been Jerome Ford's thing.

45:32Robert Mays: You can get there if Mason Graham is good, right? If Dylan Sampson is good, if Harold Vannon is good, if the quarterback does enough for this team to stay above water, you have two first round picks next year and that's what you have to hammer home. It's like and that's why they kept Miles Garrett, by the way. I think outside of the public embarrassment of having to trade him, I think part of the thinking is even if we got two first round picks for this guy, It turns around quicker in the NFL than you think it does. We're better with Miles Garrett over the next two years than we'd be with those two first-round picks.

45:59Robert Mays: And now you have another one next year. You can draft a quarterback. And that's the case for optimism here, is that we have enough where we can start turning the corner faster than you think we can. I don't know how much I'm buying what they're trying to sell with that, but I think that is the optimistic case they're trying to make for you. That's the case. Now, the reality is, next year, you might just take all the dead money, push it in, officially release Watson, and let some of these guys move on and totally retool for two years from now. And then who knows if these guys are the ones handling the retooling.

46:27Robert Mays: There's so much uncertainty. I think two months from today, we get back from London. That'll be five games in. We'll have a much better feel for where this thing is headed. Because, like I said, could they beat the Bengals in week one at home? Absolutely. Could they beat the Packers in week three at home? Absolutely. Could they go to Baltimore in week two and lose by 50? They could lose by 50 to the Packers at home. It's all on the table here. And that's when you're relying on defense to such an extent. They are the case study in how volatile defense is. You go from what they were in 23 to what they were last year.

46:57Robert Mays: And that's how the floor falls out is when you go from being the best defense in the league to the 18th best defense in the league. And where they fall between those two, I think we'll go a long way in establishing the competence we get from the Browns week to week. Last year, when the clocks changed, Rodney McLeod was tied for the team lead in touchdowns with two. He was a backup safety. That's all. That's all that needs to be said. All right. We'll let you get to Kevin Stefanski's press conference, which is starting here in a second. Zach Jackson, sincerely appreciate the time. Always great to chat with you.

47:24Robert Mays: We'll do it again very soon. Thanks.

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48:25Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Washington Commanders writer, our new Washington Commanders writer here at The Athletic, Nikki Javala. Nikki, great to see you and welcome. We're so happy to have you here. Thank you. I'm happy to be back. Really looking forward to this conversation. We could not have it at training camp because we have lives and sometimes things get in the way of that. But I'm happy that we were able to circle back to it. And it actually worked out timing-wise because what we've been doing with these shows is that we've been releasing them the following weekend. And I was at Commander's Camp last Saturday.

48:58Robert Mays: It's all running together now. And there was part of me that was like, I kind of don't want to do this with Nikki today because there's a chance it's all irrelevant in the next 24 hours of Terry signs. So the fact that we pushed it back a little bit, I think has protected us a little. So let's just dive into where the Terry McLaurin situation sits with Washington right now. I guess his stance on it. And then I also just wanted to ask you what you know about kind of how it's arrived at this point and what the negotiation points on both sides of this look like. So we can take that piece by piece as we're talking on Friday, August 8th.

49:33Robert Mays: Where does everything sit between these two sides? Yeah, it's still at an impasse and has been for months, really. You know, both sides made it clear they wanted to get an extension done pretty early in the offseason. Adam Peters said this at the league meetings. Terry obviously wants to get this done. But they they've been pretty far apart for quite some time. And I both sides obviously are going to have to give for anything to get done. But as we inch closer to the regular season, I think the urgency is growing significantly. especially for a receiver, an older receiver, just getting that ramp up time.

50:16Obviously, he's familiar with the offense. He's familiar with the quarterback. So he has that to his advantage, but they need to get a deal done. Now, where both sides are at, you know, one side has talked publicly about their frustrations. Neither side has talked about specifics in the negotiations or where things stand, typical. But my general understanding is, you know, the sticking point from the team primarily is the age component. Now, Terry McLaurin has missed only three games in his six year career. He's led the team in receiving every year. He is, you know, the perfect ambassador, so to speak, for a team.

50:56You know, good guy, great leader, you know, reliable player, very good player. but he's going to turn 30 and September 15th. So week three, which means when a new deal kicks in, he's got one year remaining on his contract. When a new deal kicks in, he'll be 31, which is not ideal for a receiver, especially one that you're trying to assign to a longer term deal and one that seeks to be paid more in line with the top receivers. And there's what nine receivers now making at least 30 million a year. Um, so he's, he said that he wants to be, you know, he, he views his value to be in line with that.

51:38Now, what that means specifically, he hasn't said, um, I would imagine there's, you know, his camp is seeking somewhere in the range of the DK Metcalf deal, whether that's in the guarantees or the average annual value, which is what 33 million a year. They have pretty similar numbers Both came in at 2019 But DK is also Close to two years younger So that's I think from the fans in Washington It seems pretty clear You've got to re-sign Terry He's been everything to the seam From the team side It's a little bit more nuanced It's a little bit more complicated Because of the age component And what they're trying to do here They've made it clear They don't want to mortgage their future to one player.

52:23And right now they have the luxury of not paying a big quarterback contract, but in a few years they will have to. So I'm trying to keep all that in mind.

52:35Robert Mays: Often with these, I feel like we look at it and one side, I think has a stronger argument than the other. And I do think in this case, it is Terry's side for a few different reasons. One, he has been that good soldier for so long in a terrible situation. We were talking about it as kind of the impasse really blew up last week. And Bill Barnwell tweeted out a picture of all the quarterbacks that Terry has played with. And you look at the list of those guys and he is still ninth in receiving yards since he came into the league. How productive he's been given the situation is remarkable. And he has been like the ideal teammate and ambassador for your organization.

53:12Robert Mays: But at the same time, he is going to be 30. And so I think when we look at contracts at the position, the ones that have been thrown out that are kind of analogous and the one that I think is kind of problematic for Terry at this stage is like what Courtland Sutton signed for a couple of weeks ago. And that's Courtland Sutton, same age as Terry McLaurin and has not been as productive, but had a really nice season last year. He signs for a deal that's like$23 million a year that that sucks for Terry McLaurin's camp. But the one that I feel like is almost a better comparison when you think about the, how good of a part of the organization you've been, what sort of locker room presence.

53:47Robert Mays: The one that Mike Evans signed a couple of years ago is also problematic for Terry McLaurin. And that's a deal that even though Mike Evans, I think was a year older when he signed that contract, it was a two year,$40 million deal. And so there are a lot of data points on that side that I think hurt Terry's case, but he's been more productive than Cortland Sutton has. And even though he's a little bit older than DK Metcalf, the, the, what I've kind of taken from this, and if you're reading between the lines a little bit, the$33 million a year, I don't think he needs. And if you look at the Metcalf deal, the last year of the Metcalf deal is 41 and a half million, which kind of pumps up that AAV.

54:20Robert Mays: But the, I think the important point about the Metcalf contract is it's 60 million guaranteed and it's 60 million guaranteed in those first two years. So if I'm Terry, I think that's probably the number that matters the most, even if it's 29 million a year, can you get to that 60 million guaranteed over those first two years? And even though I know you're stretching yourself a little bit to give that sort of contract to a player that's going to be turning 30. I just don't know what Washington's alternative is at this point. Like I, you look at that receiver room and you look at the timeline that you're currently on.

54:51Robert Mays: And I just feel like for both locker room harmony and for what you're trying to accomplish this year and next, just bite the bullet. Like you don't have to win this negotiation. You aren't paying that many guys. So I don't know this line in the sand that they seem to have drawn in this, it feels a little bit misguided given how well everything went last year. And I'm just curious how much they're willing to back off that to make sure we reach the right resolution for what this team is and what they're trying to do in 25 and 26. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think Terry, he didn't come into this with that much leverage just because he does have another year left.

55:28And I don't see another team trading for him again, given the age component. But then you're also asking another team to give up assets and then pay that kind of contract. I just don't see another team doing that. Um, but I agree with you at this point and it's become abundantly clear, especially after their joint practice, um, with the Patriots in new England that they just, they don't have depth. They don't have, because Noah Brown is technically their number two receiver Debo. I wouldn't put him as a one or two, just because he doesn't take on the workload of a one or two. He is, he is deep.

56:06He's his own category. I feel like, but to have that reliable one or two that can take on those reps and be that consistent, they don't have either of those guys with McLaurin, not on the field. Noah Brown has a lengthy injury history is dealing with one. Now he hurt his need during mandatory minicamp, missed the last four games of the regular season and the playoffs last year with a lacerated kidney, very good player, but it's trouble staying on the field. So they don't have the starter caliber players and they don't have the depth behind them. They have a lot of guys that have been vying for roster spots and none of them have really, you know, created that separation yet.

56:48Um, so it's concerning. I mean, they, they need receivers and I honestly, they need more than Terry back. Um, but that's a different story, but they, they need Terry out there. And I, I, I just think getting that time on the field now, um, before the season starts is, is paramount. Uh, they're running out of time. Yeah.

57:07Robert Mays: I mean, I think talking to people there when I was there and one of my questions was, do you feel like you had to accelerate the timeline a little bit? Or do you, did you feel an increased level of urgency based on how last season went? And the initial answer was no, but it's like, well, I saw what you did, right? Like I saw the Larry Matunzel trade. I saw the Debo trade. There's clearly an urgency to win football games right now. And I understand that, you know, when you have a quarterback that played as well as theirs did last year, you feel like, all right, our time is now our window. And this is something that also came up.

57:37Robert Mays: Our window is as long as Jaden is going to be here. And so that window is already open. And so making the most of every single season, I think becomes something that has to be at front of mind. And I think Terry McLaurin has to be a part of this. If you can, in good faith, say that you're trying to do that. And I think he has to be a part of this. And again, with, with some level of harmony, the idea of, well, we, we hold you like you have to be here. You're under contract. I just don't know if that's the right approach to this, even though that's technically correct. It just seems like you're riding high on such incredible vibes from last year and sullying the waters over something like this.

58:12Robert Mays: When you do have the money, I just don't know how much I support that. And I feel like it's just a little bit misguided as you consider all of the different factors at play here. Right. Yeah. And I think you got to give your quarterback his go-to receiver. But I agree with you. Now, I will say, I don't think I think contracts contracts or they're paid for your potential production. I don't think they're achievement awards. That said, with Terry, Terry's case is a little bit more nuanced just because of what he has gone through. Now, does that mean this current regime is responsible for what happened previously under the previous owner?

58:55I would say no. But at the same time, the context matters. You know what you signed up for and taking on this team. And I think what Terry's done with it, he's been a face of the team. He was the face of the team for the longest time. He was the not just player coach. Like he was the voice of the team when all this stuff was happening, when there were federal investigations, NFL led investigations, when the DEA was raiding the facility. Like he was the guy that was taking questions for media because we know he'll stand up and give a good answer and not back away from it when the owner never really said anything at the time.

59:36So that's what he's been through now. Does he deserve a, you know, a contract in line with the top receivers because he did that? No, but I do think that, you know, that needs to be taken into context. And I agree with you. If you're not going to pay somebody like Terry, it does send a message of, OK, who are you going to pay then? He is a player that has done everything right. Yes, age matters. There's plenty of data to show that 30-plus-year-old receivers, there's a decline. There's an increase in injuries. That is a concern. But I do agree with you that if you're going all in, which was made very clear not just with Laramie Tunsil, back when they traded for Marshawn Latham at the trading deadline.

1:00:20You don't do that if you're in a slow rebuild, you know. But if you're all in, go all in. You've got time before you've got to pay, Jaden.

1:00:30Robert Mays: Yeah, I just think, and also the downside case to me is overstated. Like if all those guarantees are going to be in 26 and 27 and it's H31 and H32 season, I don't know. I understand there's risk there. I think there's probably an overstated amount of risk there. And in the way that they're approaching the receiver position and the way that they approach this offseason and just talking about the construction of the offense overall, if we can pivot to that. I think part of the rationale as it was communicated to me is, well, you look around the league and you see what teams have done around some of the best quarterbacks in football, the Bills being a really good example of this.

1:01:02Robert Mays: If we feel like we have one of the guys, the priority should be let's put the right pieces in front of him. And if we have that established, if we feel like the protection and what's going on up front is good, We can figure it out with the pass catching group. That seems to be what they've done with the Tunsil acquisition, going out and getting Josh Connerly. The presumption in that equation, though, is that Jaden Daniels is already one of those guys. And the fact that Washington is kind of already operating that way, I think says a lot about what their expectations for him are and what their expectations for this offense and this season are.

1:01:41Oh, 100%. I mean, they're all in. I mean, they they do not view this as a slow rebuild. I think they did when this regime first came in, when Adam Peters first got a look at the roster and started, you know, tearing everything down and rebuilding the staff entirely. I think they did view it as a slow rebuild. But I think by week three, when, you know, in Cincinnati, I think that was a clear indicator that they might have to, you know, fast track this a little bit more. Um, and I, they've shown it throughout too. Like, you know, the, the trades, the guys they've signed, I think the fact that they've surrounded him with a number of veterans too.

1:02:21I mean, most of these guys are, a lot of these guys are older players, um, on one or two year deals, giving them some flexibility for the future, but also surrounding him with, you know, that veteran savvy, I guess, um, guys like Bobby Wagner, Zach Ertz, they bring in Von Miller. so they're they're all in this is not a slow rebuild if they feel like if they went 12 and five and made it to the nsc championship game they can tweak the roster a bit and go a bit further

1:02:53Robert Mays: i think this the offensive line group can be a defined strength of this team depending on how certain things go you know brandon coleman moving inside to guard his play strength and just what he's bringing to that position i think makes a lot of sense and i think in their minds playing Laramie Tunsil next to him should only increase or accelerate whatever that development looks like. So that offensive line now where you have Allegretti and Andrew Wiley becoming depth pieces instead of starters, that can be a driving force of what this team and offense looks like. To me, the big question remaining there is how quickly do they get Sam Cosme back and what does he look like when he's playing?

1:03:26Robert Mays: So based on the conversations you've had, what sort of timeline do we have on Sam Cosme who was playing at like a Pro Bowl definitive level last season at right guard. When do we think we might see him as part of this? They've said they haven't ruled out the season opener for him. My guess is he'll start the season on IR, do four games. Let's see how he is, you know, bring him back to practice, see where he's at, you know, maybe week five or six, give him that ramp up period. Um, we, he's been working out on the field next to the team. Um, He visibly does not have the same leg strength in the injured leg where he tours ACL that he does in the other.

1:04:07And he's been working to get that back. And I think until he does like that's, that'll be a clear indicator of how soon he'll be back on the field. But my guess at this point is start, you know, he'll be on the initial 53, then they place him on IR so he can do the short-term thing. So that, that's a, that's a huge piece of it. I mean, because they, Nick Allegretti is a good player, a good teammate, but he's not the caliber that Sam Cosme is. And I feel like they got the left side of the line pretty good. I think Brandon Coleman is actually one of the more underrated players on this roster. I think he's really, really good.

1:04:44And he'll be even better at guard. But the right side without Cosme could be a concern.

1:04:52Robert Mays: You hope you get Cosme back in the first month of the season. And then you hope Terry gets there. and then the rest of the pieces kind of fall together in a way that makes sense to me. Like the Debo part of this, I think there are a lot of teams for whom Debo Samuel would be a risky addition in a few different ways. Obviously, there's an injury history there. There's an inconsistency of play there, but also you have to have the right role for Debo Samuel within your offense. Well, with this offense, it's incredibly easy to picture. Like it's the way that they play is the way they would use a player like Debo.

1:05:21Robert Mays: So all most of the pass sketching spots. I can understand how it's all supposed to come together. The room on that offense that feels a little bit unsettled is the running back room based on my understanding. And so let's have the Jacory Krosky merit conversation. How quickly do we feel like let's go, let's, let's talk about bill here. How quickly do we think bill can be a part of this running back rotation? Because if you're talking to the fantasy people out there, this is supposed to be a good offense and good offense with unsettled backfields are an area for opportunity. And by all accounts, it really does seem like he's somebody who's going to be in the mix for this team.

1:06:00Robert Mays: Do you think that's fair? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. He's, he's had a really good camp. I think they view him as a seal in the draft. He's an older rookie, 24, longer college career. And then this last year didn't play really at all. I think it was one game, right? And then there were the NCAA eligibility issues. But he's a quality player. Like he's a powerful back. He's built more like a linebacker, but he has the vision. He can cut. It's he's fun to watch. So he's he's getting a spot on this roster. Now, how quickly they move him into the rotation, I think will be a little bit dependent on him and how quickly they get him up to speed.

1:06:43You know how much he adjusts to, you know, the NFL tempo. But I he's he's looked really good in camp. I'm that's the player I'm looking to watch. I'm excited to watch the most in this in the first preseason game just to see how he handles, you know, going against another team going, you know, just dealing with the NFL speed, because I think he has a real shot to be a good player. What's interesting about this room, too, is it's. It's Bill. He goes by Bill. Um, and all veterans who are either signed to one year deals or in the last year of their deals. So everybody is hungry for a spot and out to brew something.

1:07:25Um, so it's, it's been interesting. That's a one competition that has really been interesting this year, just to see how that group shakes out.

1:07:35Robert Mays: It was the first position that was mentioned when I asked one of the offensive coaches about kind of what they're looking at with, is there anything that's kind of unsettled? You know, is there a group where the rotation is interesting to you, where you really keep an eye on it, that running back was the first thing. So this is not just you guys on the ground being like, oh, he's flashed. I think that this is something in front of mind for the staff as they think about what that group is going to be and how they're going to deploy it. The offense, I think, has a chance to take a small step back just because there was some volatility things last year.

1:08:03Robert Mays: The four down efficiency, some of the deep ball stuff, just the nature of the NFL and how this stuff tends to work. but I mostly consider them like a top 10-ish offense if they stay healthy because of the quarterback and because of the quality of the line, et cetera. I think this is going to be the ceiling for this team is going to be determined by what the defense looks like. And they go out this off season, they add a couple of corners, you know, talking to people there, I think, especially with the world Dan Quinn comes from, I think they're very happy that they could play a lot more man coverage and training camp this year than they could last year.

1:08:32Robert Mays: So the corner room is improved. There's a little bit of stability back there. The front, I think is going to be the biggest question about where this team goes and what the ceiling ends up looking like. They add some pieces, Dietrich Wise, Javon Kinlaw, Von Miller, but not that kind of ace pass rusher. I think some people were hoping they would add coming into this season. What do you think? Is there a player up front that you think can emerge as like the most important part of that group? And what sort of ceiling do you think we're talking about here with this defense overall? I think the player that could emerge as the most important player is Deron Payne.

1:09:07He did not have a good season last year. He's had a good offseason, good camp. He looks rejuvenated in a sense. You know, he did say he was dealing with some nagging injuries late last season. What player isn't at that point? And I do wonder if there's been, you know, Jonathan Allen going to Minnesota. I think, you know, the spotlight is more on Duran now. And I think there's some freedom that he's played with Jonathan Allen, you know, from college on up at Alabama. So the spotlight's more on him and he seems to play with a little bit more freedom. And I mean, he's he's a really good defensive tackle.

1:09:49He is one of the fastest getoffs I've seen for a guy that size. It doesn't make sense to me physics wise. Um, so I think he's a guy that has a chance to have a really good bounce back season. And honestly, he needs it. Um, he's getting paid significantly. So to have that down year was, he took some heat. Um, and then, you know, with the guys they've, they put around him too. I mean, like you said, they beefed up the line, obviously with, you know, the focus on, on stopping the run, um, being in the NFC East, that's pretty important. Um, uh, given what Philly has. So, um, yeah, so I, I, I think that group could be pretty good against the run.

1:10:30It's a pass rush. I'm a little uncertain of, um, Von Miller looks like Von Miller as he's always been when he's healthy. And that's, that will always be the key for him at this stage in his career. Um, just dealing with so many, you know, season ending injuries over the years. Um, but he still has that bend. He still has that get off. Um, he can still do things, you know, in pass rushing that no other player can. And to me, the actual the wild card on this defense is actually Marshall Lattimore. He had a he had a tough season last year just because he was dealing with a hamstring injury. Gets traded midway, never fully acclimated to the new team, the new system, and then got, you know, called for P.I.

1:11:18like five times. Not ideal. If he's healthy now, if he can look anything like he did or something close to it a few years ago, I think they have a really good chance. If he struggles, I think they're going to get gashed. I think Trey Amos is good, especially for a rookie. But I think generally he looks good. Sound technique, a smart player. But I think that other side is going to be critical if Marshawn can be anywhere near the level he was a few years ago.

1:11:51Robert Mays: the bets they've made need to hit the expensive bets they've made need to hit i mean it's just that simple and he's one of those expensive bets when you think about draft capital and what he's making he is one of the highest capets in the league among all corners this year and so that's where they've put a lot of their chips and if that group if he can play well and then you have trey most and some combination of trey most and jonathan jones and i think that's one of the underrated parts of this team again and talking about how they assemble like saying i think it'll probably be mikey sander still in the nickel yeah in the nickel yeah so but jonathan jones is like Like as depth, that's one of the underrated parts of this team, I think, is that they've really been able to build out some of their depth at some of these key positions.

1:12:28Robert Mays: And that's what they'll tell you is that, you know, sometimes these rookie quarterback contracts are wielded for high profile players. And they obviously did some of that. But the middle ground guys they've been able to sign, like Allegretti, Wiley, Jonathan Jones, Dietrich Wise, some of these guys that are building out the depth of this roster, they've really prioritized that. I think it's a good thing to bring up. Like they're not as fragile in some of these spots as some other teams are. And so they've used those mid-tier veteran contracts we don't see a lot of anymore to help build up that depth.

1:12:58Robert Mays: And it's a good argument. So even if they had an injury at the outside corner spot, you know, Jonathan Jones is a totally reasonable player to have to plug in there. So that quarterback group with Mikey going back to the nickel, I think, has a real chance to be a strength. And the argument they're going to give you for the guys up front is, OK, maybe we don't have that high end ace pass rusher. but we have a ton of bodies and a ton of depth that we can deploy situationally. If we can use Dietrich Wise on early downs and we feel like we can stop the run and get into defined passing situations, that's when we can trot out a group that has Von Miller, Dorrance, Armstrong, Johnny Newton, Deron Payne, and we can get after the quarterback.

1:13:35Robert Mays: It's a good theory. Like, I understand the argument for it. I understand what they're trying to say. I think at the end of the day, when you're trying to win Super Bowls, Having that guy the other team is terrified of on third and seven helps a little bit. But I at least understand the vision and the bill of goods they're trying to sell you at this point about what the defense is supposed to look like. The one data point that I will give in their defense is this franchise had four first round picks on their defensive line. Couldn't do much of anything with it. It was too many alpha males, I guess, up front.

1:14:10So I guess, you know, maybe they're thinking, all right, if we have, you know, a couple of sound guys, guys that, you know, stay in their lane and, you know, make this whole thing work, it'll, it'll come together. But yeah, we'll see.

1:14:23Robert Mays: it is a very different conversation about the washington commanders on august 8th of 2025 than it was on august 8th of 2024 we got contract disputes about star receivers that have become incredibly important because this team is trying to win championships like talking about nitpicking areas of the roster and like what they'll do in the playoffs so just the type of discussion the type of framing i probably would not have anticipated a year ago but this is where we are Nikki, sincerely appreciate the time. Very good to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. Of course. Thanks for having me.

1:14:58All right.

1:14:59Robert Mays: That's all we got today. Thank you so much to Joe Person. Thank you so much to Zach Jackson. And thank you to Nikki Javall. Great to talk with all three of them. I'm still rolling on the road. I'm in Cincinnati right now. I'll be at Bengals training camp on Saturday, August 9th. And then I'll be visiting with the Colts on the 11th. We have the Bears and Packers next week, along with a Raiders Niners joint practice. So we'll be talking with B-Riders from like four or five different teams again next week. And we'll have a few of these coming your way next weekend. After that, things will have slowed down, but got a lot of fun stuff still on tap.

1:15:33Robert Mays: A lot of camps, a lot of teams to still visit. I've been enjoying it. Hope you guys have been as well. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you soon.

1:16:14Robert Mays: We'll see you next time. apply. See discover.com slash five for details. This summer, JBL is on a mission to help you tune into what you love. Audiobooks, podcasts, and everything in between with JBL's live headphones. These headphones are perfect because of their high-res sound, making your fave stories and voices come alive with so much detail, exactly the way they were made to be heard. Plus, they have 80 hours of battery life, so you can binge without pressing pause all summer long. Find your pair at JBL.com.