TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Seahawks, Falcons and Ravens beat writers

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2:02Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It is our next beat writer notebook here on the feed today. We actually have two of them coming your guys' way today. One today, one tomorrow. We had so many conversations. We're going to have so many conversations coming over the next couple weeks that felt like it was just easiest to split this into two shows. Today, three great conversations with a few of our beat writers. First off, it's Michael Sean Dugar, our Seahawks writer at The Athletic, who does a phenomenal job covering that team. I really love talking to Michael Sean about football.

2:32Robert Mays: And that team has a ton of intrigue. New quarterback, new offensive coordinator, how the scheme will affect the offensive line, whether that can hold up its end of the bargain with an ascending young defense. Also, chat with our Falcons writer at The Athletic, Josh Kendall, about what the Michael Penix era may look like, a new defensive coordinator in Atlanta, whether they can get the most out of some of their young defensive pieces. And we also chatted with our Ravens writer at the Athletic Jefferson Rebeck. Ravens are a tough team to talk about this time of year. You're talking nitpicky type things when it comes to their personnel.

3:01Robert Mays: Who's the third safety going to be? Who's going to win the left guard battle? This is a team that has been one of the best teams in football over the last couple of years and just struggles to break through at the end. So what are we looking for at this time of year? And what is Jeff focusing on as he's thinking about how the Ravens can potentially get over the hump? Really enjoyed these conversations. Hope you guys do as well.

3:26Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Seahawks writer at The Athletic, Michael Sean Duggar. Michael Sean, how you doing, man? I'm doing great, man. I always love talking to you. I'm happy to be here. Excited to be here. It's an interesting team. I was talking to one of the local writers earlier today, just talking about expectations and how we're looking at this team. And, you know, the defense, there's stuff to talk about. And I think the ceiling of that group is really intriguing and could drive a lot of their success. But we kind of know what's going on. Like the scheme is the same. 10 of 11 starters are back.

3:53Robert Mays: You know, you have a couple small things changing. But on the offensive side, I was talking to my friend Mina Kimes yesterday. And we're talking about expectations on offense for the Seahawks. And I said, if they were the 12th best offense in the league, I could believe that. Right. If everything kind of comes together, if the scheme hits, if they were the 28th best offense in the league, I would also believe that. And it's just such a wide range. It's probably one of the widest ranges of any offense in the league. So we've been at camp for three, four days now, obviously not a ton to go on, but your initial impressions thought about the plan on that side of the ball and how it all could potentially come together.

4:30Yeah. I'm not as big on gambling as much anymore, like table games and stuff like that. Cause I have kids now expecting my second kid here, literally any minute. And I bring that up to say they're rolling the dice quite a bit on offense, perhaps more than any other team in the league in terms of one offseason overhaul. Yeah. Changing QB1, which is already big in itself. Changing arguably wide receiver one with DK Metcalf. And then you get rid of Tyler Lockett as well, who wasn't necessarily wide receiver one or two, but to this franchise, that's a very big transaction. A mainstay. Yeah, that's a huge move.

5:03He's a safety blanket, you know, third down guy. You can rely on him. to get rid of all of that in one offseason and say we're going to get better. That's quite the dice roll. I've done that. That's a parlay. The Seahawks are on like a four or five leg parlay and then those can hit. And like you said, you can be really good. You can cash out. And then if it goes bad, you can be real bad, you know. And I think the other part of why it's such a dice roll, because inherently those moves aren't risky, it's who you replace them with. Now, if you tell me I'm swapping Sam Darnold in for Geno Smith and I'm swapping Marquez Valdez-Scantling as my deep guy, because I got rid of DK and I'm getting rid of Tyler at age 32, I believe he is, and bringing in 31-year-old Cooper Cup.

5:42Robert Mays: Who's not really 31. You think about the mileage on his body and the way that he's played over the last 10 years. It's very different. Yeah. I've been watching Cooper Cup since college. I went to Washington State. He went to Easton. So it feels like I've been watching Cup for most of my adult life. That is very risky to say, let's do all that and get better. And we're not going to change much up front. You just swapping out Lakin Tomlinson for a Grazeable rookie who played at the FCS level. We're not even talking about swapping it for some guy who was like a stud at Bama. You know, it's quite the risk.

6:12And I believe that there's a little bit of arrogance in doing all of that and saying we're going to we're just going to be better. We're going to go to the Super Bowl. We're just going to bring in Clint Kubiak. He's going to bring in this scheme. You know, I do think scheme matters quite a bit in offense. But I do think at the end of the day, you got to have guys that can execute. There's no scheme really to overcome that, particularly up front. You look at all these rankings preseason everywhere. The Seahawks feel disrespected because this position group isn't ranked here or whatever. That's fine.

6:38But you can't really lie when someone like Brandon Thorne has the Seahawks, I believe, as his 29th best Olar.

6:43Robert Mays: I had them as the worst supporting cast on offense in the NFC when we did those rankings. And I didn't expect that. When I was coming into it, I wasn't like, oh, this team's a disaster. They'll be dead last. But I think the group was very strong overall. all. But then you actually look at it and it's like, there's so many questions here. Like, I don't understand how I'm supposed to push them that much further up this list. Like they're in the bottom tier, even if they're not 16th. And I was a little bit surprised by that. But when I actually thought about it, I was like, yeah, this is justified.

7:12Yeah. And Seahawks fans will disagree largely because they're looking at it through these like rose colored glasses and they see the best version of every possible scenario. Of course. It's what if Elijah Royal pops and he's better than Noah Fant, you know, right off a rip? What if Cooper Cup still has some juice left? What if Jackson's basically as good as all these other wide receivers from Ohio State? He's basically Terry McLaurin good. You know, he's basically Amon Raw good from the slot. What if Sam Darnold can just be what he was last year? What if the O-line is a step above because of the scheme?

7:43What if Abe Luke is healthy? Like, there's all these what ifs. Again, it's a parlay. If all of these things hit, then you're walking to the cage super happy with a grin because he's about to get you all this money. But if only one or two of those things goes wrong, which is why comparing it to the parlay, you're broke. You lose everything. They're counting on not just one or two things to go well. You're asking about five or six maybes to all cash. I think Cooper Cup's a big one of those. I think the free agency was kind of diluted this year because it's as it is generally because teams get scared when the team that knows the guy best lets him walk.

8:17That's typically pretty alarming. And in Cooper Cup's case, I think that's pretty relevant to say, Sean McVay's watched the best of this guy. He's watched his work ethic. He's watched everything. And he was like, nah, nah, let's go try and get Devontae. Now, that's a great upgrade. But there was no guarantee they could get Devontae. They were just like, maybe we can upgrade. Maybe we can't. But we just know this guy's not even worth being our number two. Not just building around him. You could build around Puka and just make him the two. They were like, nah, he's not even worth that. Now, McVay could be wrong.

8:45He's been wrong before. But I do think that's the other danger here is that they didn't just they made moves. They changed names. I'm not sure they got better, you know, and that's tricky in this division, which I still believe is good.

8:57Robert Mays: Let's talk about the moves individually. You and I have discussed this. I want to refresh this conversation. We have to linger on it. But just for people who maybe haven't heard us talk about this, just the idea of going from Gino to Sam and why they thought that was in the best long term interest of the franchise. What would you tell people who maybe don't know as much about the details about their thinking? Yeah, Gino wanted to be here and they wanted Gino here. But I think there's a caveat to both of those sentences. Gino wanted to be here at a certain price. They wanted Gino to stay at a certain price.

9:27And those numbers did not align. And they were like, we can move on without you. You know, Clint Kubiak said when he took the job, I took it part to coach Gino. You know, and I don't think he was lying. In February, before the trade, Mike McDonald said, I believe we can win a Super Bowl with Geno Smith. I don't believe Mike McDonald to be a liar. I've only known him a little bit. But I believe that. I believe that from him. But the business got in the way. The business got in the way. And they think that Sam Darnold can be as good as Geno Smith was in this scheme in particular. I think marrying Kubiak and Sam together was very important.

10:03Like if it was just Ryan Grubb and Sam Darnold, they'd just, I don't know. Maybe we should just pay Gino, use some void years. Let's call Holly Roseman to figure out how we can work the cap. You know, that's John Snyder's boy. But they like Gino. They believe they could go to the promised land with Gino if they supported him properly. The money just didn't line up. And now they feel like, shoot, man, Sam's got a big arm. Sam's athletic. If we support Sam like how we should have supported Gino, we can get there. I think there's some arrogance to that again. I'm a big Gino guy. I just think Gino's combination of accuracy, toughness, and decision-making is just really, really good on a play-by-play basis.

10:41Gino's 20 worst plays are bad. So are Sam's. And Gino's 20 best plays, you'd be like, well, that might be the best player in the league if you didn't know any better. So it's a risk. There's arrogance on their part, I think. Confidence maybe is the more objective word to use there. But they believe Sam can get them there. But they believe that about Gino as well.

10:59Robert Mays: It's a really good way to frame Gino because the 20 plays are bad. The 20 bad plays are bad, but that's the exact same thing with Sam. And we don't have to relitigate all of this. I'm on the exact same boat as you are here. I think that this scheme with Gino, I was interested in seeing that. I think you could have done a lot of the things they did this offseason and just kept Gino as the quarterback. But this idea of, okay, we're seeing it through those colored glasses and all these specific instances. This notion that we got seven years younger at quarterback, we maintain more financial flexibility, and we get a third round pick, and the downgrade is marginal.

11:27Robert Mays: I'm willing to hear that argument. Yeah, me too. So let's just put that aside for now and accept that that might be how this works out. And then we go to the Ryan Grubb with Sam Darnold would have been a different situation. Now we get into, in my opinion, how the offensive line can potentially lift the scheme. Because they didn't do it a ton. So you go and get Graze Abel, and then you have the same kind of trio of young players fighting out the right guard spot, and then Ablee, because it's healthy. I think that the line probably would have been better no matter what, personnel-wise. But when you add a scheme that is now designed to protect the offensive line, I'm willing to concede that it might be a very different situation in terms of how those guys are being set up for success this year, even if the talent still isn't overwhelming.

12:10Yeah, I thought Ryan Grubb was doing an interesting thing with his O-line last year. It was a lot of my guys are just better than your guys. Which was not true. No, it wasn't. And he didn't adjust later. You know, he tried to be flexible, you know, make it game plan specific, which I do feel like is important. But that also kind of came with a college mindset, because in colleges, you know, you watch college ball that they might have a freshman, registered freshman inside backer on the field. It could be a good team, but that dude, you can just run at him all day. You know, we see that in the NFL sometimes or you play a team in college.

12:40Oh, man, that that weak side safety is flat footed. We're just going to bomb it with Michael Penix today and we'll score 40 points. Can't do that in the NFL. There's some weak leaks, but you can't do that. And I do think this scheme does protect the O-line a little bit. Mike McDonald made a good point I hadn't thought of. It's easier to rep this padless. I think you can get the reps better because of what you're doing versus running power. Yeah, because it's about rhythm. It's about rhythm and timing.

13:07Robert Mays: And so it's actually the movements in conjunction with one another, actually how you rep it. So that does make sense, but I hadn't thought about that either. So Mike McDonald said it. I think this was at the owners meetings or something. And he was like, yeah, we can just get more reps at it and build, like you said, the rhythm of it. And I was like, wow, you still got to block the guy in front of you. But it's a lot easier to do that. Everyone take the same step. Everyone run off the ball. You know, your tight ends get the rhythm of playing next to your tackle versus, man, if we're just trying to hit the A-gap hard.

13:35We can't really do that until, you know, June or July 29th or something like that. But I do think what I've been trying to remind people is because, you know, Robert, when they hired Clint Kubiak, they're going to the Saints. Everyone's like, let's watch the Saints film because that's where Kubiak was. I'm like, wow, look at all these points they scored before their O-line kind of fell apart physically. I say before they fell apart physically, go watch the Eagles game. Go watch the Eagles game in like week three. Couldn't move the ball. Couldn't move the ball. They lost like 15 to 12 or something like that.

14:03That was a fairly healthy O-line, fairly healthy. Alave played, Carr played. Why couldn't they? In part because they played Fangio. You know what Fangio knows how to do? Stop wide zone. Yeah. And play action. That's like truly the benchmarks of the defense. Go watch the Bears versus the Rams in 2018 on Sunday Night Football. You're a Bears fan. I remember that game very well. Yes, that Rams team was on fire and they could not move the ball. What Belichick do? Use the same scheme, Super Bowl. They scored three points. So the scheme's not foolproof. That's why I say all that to say you've still got to have the horses up front.

14:34And that's, again, one of these huge questions with this team.

14:36Robert Mays: As you look at the offensive line, the pieces and how they're going to shake out, who do you think right now wins that right guard job in your mind? I think Christian Haynes. I think he's got the athleticism that you need, fire off the ball. And he's a strong guy. I was really surprised that last year when they took him, I think, 81st out of UConn. He played like six years at UConn, COVID gear and everything. And he was a starter, had a bunch of snaps. I watched him on tape. I was like, this guy's good. He's smart. He picks up games really well. He's seen a lot of ball. And I never saw him have issues with power.

15:05and then he gets here and Ryan Grubb's like, yeah, he doesn't have play strength. I'm like, wow, really? I was so confused, but I never played football, so I deferred to the coaches. But even then, I did an interview with Brandon Thorne in the offseason. He said the same things. I don't know. I watched his tape. He wasn't great, but he wasn't getting bullied every week. So I think that he does have the play strength. I do think that he's a really good athlete. He's a very good athlete, very smart guy. That's why they're trying him out at center as well. I do think his ceiling might be a little low because he's not like he's not that true mauler.

15:38You don't want like you watch Mekhi Becton last year, just moving guys off the off the pill. But I do think he's a starting caliber right guard. Thought that when they took him, we thought that all last year. And I think that now I do think that helps because, Robert, last year they took the took their right guard competition into like week eight.

15:56Robert Mays: Listen, I remember watching it in real time and I remember being frustrated about it through the entire year. And that it's important to concede the offensive line did gel better in the back half of the year when Abe Lucas was healthy. But there were a lot of stretches last season where it was hard to watch. Yeah. And in that backstretch, they had Sautaua Laomea, a six round pick every week. You know, it's just I understand competition is everything. I can't repeat, Carol just wrote a book about the Seahawks. I understand competition, but eventually just need five guys up front. And it really helps if that guy knows him, you know, if he knows, hey, man, if this guy's stance is like this, We already know because we talked about it.

16:31You shift that way. You help me out. Those little things matter so much. You do the anatomy of a play. You watch the NFL films of a team Super Bowl run. It's all those little tidbits. It's always that little adjustment, that little piece of chemistry that makes the difference. And when you don't know who's going to be your guy, let alone in the game, in practice, you'll know who you're getting the reps with. I think that's a problem. And Mike McDonald, I feel like, has acknowledged that. He's like, we want to get this settled way earlier. We don't want to be in week four fielding questions on a Wednesday.

17:00Wait, who's going to play right guard this week?

17:02Robert Mays: That's terrible. You look at the skill position players. I'm curious how you think the roles shake out, like when their best collection of guys is on the field, who are they and how do they play? Because this team cut Noah Fant like a week ago. Yeah. Right. And so you have Elijah Arroyo, you have AJ Barner who going back and watching, I was, my God, I was watching the Cardinals defense last week and I was trying to find a Cardinals defense game in the back half of the year and I was like, who's an offense that is a good kind of benchmark and they didn't have a really good one of those. So I watched the Seahawks Cardinals game again.

17:29In Arizona?

17:30Robert Mays: Yes. And having to rewatch the Seahawks offense again, it was awful. But the one thing, one of the things that I glabbed onto is that AJ Barner is a really good blocker. And so having him be in that role with Elijah Royal skillset makes sense. So as you're kind of watching them cycle through what the skill position players are going to look like, what have you been paying attention to and what are your main questions? Yeah. My main thing is how are they going to maximize Cup and JSN together? Because there is some skill set overlap there. You go back and watch Cup last year, which I did. He's good at a few things now.

18:02He's high level good at underneath. He understands leverage really well. Stuff that when you're a high level receiver, that don't go away. Cooper Cup at 40 is going to be able to take advantage of bad leverage. He can do that. Now, is he going to just beat someone on a goal ball or something like that? Is he the through route on a two-route combination? Is he taking the safety off the top? Probably not at his age. But how is that going to work? Because as much as I love Jackson Smith and Jigba, he's not like a blow-by-your guy either. I think he's underrated as a vertical player

18:31Robert Mays: because I think that his ability on corners and some of those deeper digs, like working off of vertical stems, I actually do think he changes direction at full speed well. but the high end speed just isn't there. And you need that in this scheme because John Snyder will tell you, go watch the saints. They made it work because they had a Rahid Shahid who was my goodness, like Deshaun Jackson reincarnated down there for a little bit. You had him to take the top off and a lot of data work it underneath. That makes perfect sense. That's why I was surprised. They traded DK because here that, that makes perfect sense.

19:00DK runs for three Jackson works underneath$32 million a year is a lot to pay

19:05Robert Mays: to speed receiver though. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in that case was weird because they didn't even talk money with DK. That was just a DK. okay, not wanting to be here before the money got there. That's a combo for another day. But that was very strange to me because then I would think, okay, replace him with another speech there and they wouldn't got another underneath guy. I need to see how that's going to look because if you just line cup out at X and say, Hey, just beat your guy. You can't do that. You're not going to do that with any consistency, which going back to the Rams, that's why they went and got not just another receiver, but X.

19:32They went and got Devante. Schematically, I see the vision there. You know, Robert, something like that to take the skill position combo, like broaden it. What I'm noticing that's interesting is teams are building it that way. You have this really good underneath guy, shifty slot guy, and then you still have your ex. Whether he's your one or your two, you get a Devontae and AJ, a Higgins and Chase. You're getting these Newton, Nakua, and Adams where you got your guy who's inside who might be your one now, but that ex still has to win. That's what makes the whole thing work.

20:01Robert Mays: And I think that when you look at what the Rams did, it was a question of can we find a guy who doesn't need help getting open? We don't need to create separation for him. Now, you only really have Tutu Atwell as that guy in the offense. And so when you project it onto the Seahawks, the question then becomes, can JSN be that guy? Can he be that guy where you don't have to give him free releases? You don't have to manufacture that stuff. Even if he's not a true X receiver, if that's in his toolbox, I think that the whole thing can come together. The question then becomes, can he do that? Can he be the guy who can operate that way?

20:33Robert Mays: We've never really seen him be asked to do that. Yeah, and that's tough. and JSN benefited, and he'll tell you this, from DK Metcalf's presence. DK Metcalf, the reason I call him a number one, because I'm watching the film and I'm watching how they put the safety over there. You barely ever get DK Metcalf one-on-one to the backside and that corner's not getting help. That's just not how it works. And if that corner doesn't get help, that DC probably didn't survive the offseason. Because that's just not good football. Cups doesn't demand that type of attention. With all due respect, he just does not.

21:02Can JSN do that when he's getting the double teams now? Now, when you go and play a team, their number, when they practice for you in Seattle, now they're wearing an 11 jersey, you know, that wears a different color in practice. Say, we got to find JSN every week. They probably weren't doing that last year until about week eight, week nine. The Rams look like they didn't do it in the first game, which is why Jackson almost had 200 yards, if not for a couple of penalties up front. I am very curious about that because I am high on Jackson. I think that, you know, when you're scouting players, you got to scout the player, not the helmet.

21:33But I do think there's something in the water in Columbus and down in Baton Rouge, like LSU and Ohio State guys are just coming and leak killing. There's just no denying that. And the Ohio State guys I'm finding are just so technically sound. They don't need to blow by you. You know, they can run any route. But like when I watch Terry, when I watch Marvin Harrison, when I watch Jackson, they just know how to get open. They're going to be able to Jackson's going to be able to get open till he's 37. But there's a difference between this. This is important with the expectations of this team. There's a difference between being able to get open in week seven against the Texans.

22:06Can you get open in the wildcard round of the playoffs? Can you go up in a divisional round? Because that's where these guys want to go. They haven't made the playoffs since 2022.

22:13Robert Mays: As you look at the other guys, the tight ends and the running back specifically, it feels like the Kenneth Walker's team is going to build again where we're OK. Now we're in an offense that feels more cohesive. It feels more put together. Him in this running scheme. Can he really explode? That conversation is inevitable. how legitimate and how reasonable do you think that conversation is? I feel like when you scout players, pre-draft sometimes, and I know you do this, you and Nate do this a lot, you get a guy. Like you're just like, I know this guy's going to be good. This is my agenda that I'm going to push.

22:45Even sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary, just like, nah, man, if he puts it all together, K-9's my guy in that way. I remember the first time I watched him, someone texted me, Michigan State was playing Michigan. I think he scored like five touchdowns or something. He was like, Mike, you got to watch this kid. I was like, oh, if Pete gets a chance, he'll take that guy. And of course he did, because I think Ken, outside of the top two running backs in the league, Saquon and Derek, I think Ken is just as talented as everyone else he'll name.

23:09Robert Mays: That's a fair point to make. I don't really think from a talent perspective, athleticism, breakaway speed, strength, that he's any less talented than Bijan, Jameer Gibbs. I watched K-9 in one of his first carries against the Saints in 2022 just take it like 60 yards to the house, off the bench. Penny broke his leg. They said, hey, you're up. Boom, 60 yards to the house. 70 yards, I think, against the Chargers like the very next week. So Ken has that breakaway speed. He has the strength, the athleticism. He can do it all. I watched him on Monday Night Football last year flip and get a first down off his head.

23:41It might be the greatest play. Athletically, that might be just as good as a Saquon Hurdle, to get a flip on your head and get a first down. So I'm going to bang the K-9 drum and tell you that if he puts it all together, i.e. if the line is good, I think K-9 can have what we saw this scheme do for a Mostert, what we saw it do for a Todd Gurley, where the numbers are just gaudy. You look at their football reference page and you're like, wow, I can see which year he was in the wide zone scheme. He ran for 1 ,700 yards and 13 touchdowns. I think Ken, no hyperbole, I think Ken can do that. I think he's that type of talent in this offense.

24:15Robert Mays: As you're looking for value in fantasy football, you're trying to find undervalued guys. I think that finding guys who are moving from a really bad situation to a really good one. That's how you can potentially mine that. I don't think people are going to look at the Seahawks situation and immediately see that where it's a really bad situation into a really good one because there are questions about the offensive line from a personnel perspective. But structurally, I do think you can make an argument that this is one of those situations. And I don't think people are going to be noticing or reacting to that quite as quickly as they should be.

24:45Yeah. And that's fair. You know, you got to really nerd out to realize that Ken, as talented as he is, he is probably a one-cut-and-go guy. The difference is when he goes, he's gone. You know, you watch his touchdown run against the Chargers in 2022. That is a toss to the right. And that safety, forget who it was, had no shot. No shot. That's a house call, untouched. Because he's got that type of speed, his big touchdown, I mentioned, I'm pretty sure that was his own run as well. One-cut, go. Ken can do that. Now, reading, when you're talking about powers and stuff like that, he can do it. But he's so fast.

25:17Man, 4-3-8. same 40 as DK that is that that's wheels man that is wheels he's got tree trunks for quads like AJ Dillon's quads with you know Jameer Gibbs his speed he really is a freak athlete you know I think that if things break right Ken is the workhorse here he's that guy the whoever gets him in a second or third round of their fantasy draft it's going to like the fifth round and I

25:40Robert Mays: think that's he really and so that's kind of why I was like I'm gonna start like banging this drum a little bit because I think a lot of other people are going to as well because the talent is so tantalizing. But I think from an environment perspective, we're probably not reacting to it as strongly as we should be. Because again, the offensive line talent isn't overwhelming. The defense, again, it's pretty set when it comes to the personnel. How they'll use them and worry is interesting. Marcus Lawrence is here now. What are the big questions you have about this version of the defense compared to what that group looked like last year?

26:09Yeah, I think when you're talking about modern defense today, particularly in the too high world, I'm really looking at your second level defenders because those guys are just in such conflict. You sit down and have a convo with an inside linebacker. Have him walk you through everything he's looking at on first down. First down, the team's under center, you know, just from the 30-yard line. Ask him all the things he's got to watch for. It'll feel like a dissertation. It is a lot. You're watching for all these motions in this, particularly if you play in this division. You play Shanahan and McVay on early downs.

26:38Oh, good Lord. It's a lot. So you're talking about Ernest Jones IV, who they read up with Tyrese Knight. who I really like. I'm worried. I'm not worried about them, but I feel like that's a bigger question than maybe people in Seattle realize because that's winning and losing you games. You know, I look at the Eagles defense that struggled in 2023 in part because they just had me and you out there at the inside back. They go get Zach Bond, you know, and Fangio turns him into an all pro. Guy was a special team. And Dakota Dean was great last year. And Dean, yeah, wasn't, hadn't done anything prior to last year.

27:08You know, he was on the bench a little bit. Boom. Now he's a guy you feel like you can't replace, you know? So, And I don't think that's a coincidence that their defense was so sound with that part really strong. And you saw it last year.

27:19Robert Mays: You saw him when Ernest Jones came in and how different the defense felt. And the run defense was huge, right? Like the light box run defense for the first month of the year was awful. And then having him in the middle of that defense, I was talking to one of the defensive coaches today. The length he brings and his ability to carry vertical routes as part of that scheme. He makes a huge, huge difference. So I think spending a little bit of time and focusing on that is totally right. Yeah. And I think Ernest is really good. And I think he's just a see ball, get ball guy. Like if you just watch a Seahawks game and you just keep your eye on the ball, you'll see number 13 pop up eventually, even if you're not looking for him.

27:54I think that's really important. The other thing I'm really curious about up front is the Seahawks haven't had a 10 sack edge rusher since 2018.

28:02Robert Mays: It's like 48 sack guys. Yeah, it's a lot of nine sacks, eight and a half, which is good. But in this league, guys are getting 15, 16 off the edge. And those guys tilt the scales. Who's going to tilt the scale for the Seahawks? Will it be Demarcus Lawrence? Will it be Chenanuosu who's dealing with a knee injury? Will it be Bue Mafei? If I had to pick another guy who I'm banging the drum for, it's Derek Hall. Robert, on practice, the third day of practice this year, I watched him just take Josh Jones and lift him off of his feet and into the backfield. He's an absolute ass kicker, man. I just can't.

28:32I get an in-game example, go watch the Lions. Week four, last year, Day Hall just forklifts Taylor Decker and brings Jared Goff down with one hand. With one hand. He's a freaking nature strong guy. If he pops, another one of those, if he puts it all together, maybe he could be that guy. But I think when you have to wonder who that guy is, there's a question about your front. Mike McDonald, though, I guess he would push back and say, I'm the sim pressure god, so I can get anybody to have, I can get eight guys to have five sacks, So I don't need one guy to have 15.

29:03Robert Mays: And you look at Baltimore, right? When they were the best defense in the league in 23, they didn't have that guy who was a truly dominant player. Matt BK was ascending, but that group was more than the sum of its parts. And I think you can make the same argument about this group where there may be no superstar involved, but there are no bad players here. Leonard Williams played a near all pro level last year. The combination of the edge rushing group is a diversified skillset. Like my faith brings something different than Hall brings than Lawrence brings. And so I like the group collectively, but for me, the biggest question is about this team outside of the offense is, can this be like the best defense in the league?

29:37Robert Mays: Like, what is the ceiling on this group? And I think in order to reach that, no weakness is a good place to start. But who are the difference makers? Who are the tilters? Is it Byron Murphy? Is it Derek Hall? Is it Rick Warren? Is it Spoon, like really becoming a superstar? Like that to me is at front of mind for how this defense can go from, all right, this is intriguing to, okay, this is changing the season for this team. Yeah, I think a good comp for the Seahawks, like a realistic expectation is the 2024 Chargers. You know, they hired Minter from Michigan. He ran the same scheme. And that Chargers team, I believe, had one all pro.

30:11I think it was Derwin James, who was second team, basically playing the role spoon plays. So they had and they led the league in scoring defense, I want to say. So you have the number one defense by at least that metric on a team that has like you just broke down a bunch of good players, but really just the one like tilter, which was Derwin. and boom now obviously the playoffs didn't go well but just over a large sample size they went from being pretty awful under Brandon Staley to legitimately an elite defense in one year running this exact same scheme and I think that all you need if you're going to lean on the scheme to that extent which I think you can do with Mike McDonald and have a little bit more faith than you can with Clint Kubiak because Mike's more proven in that way to scheme lifting players you can have Leo and Spoon just be your two tilters and as long as you don't have a weak link, I think we're kind of in that world as well on defense where you're almost as good as your 11th guy these days.

31:02Like as much as your top two, the Bengals are a good example. Like they probably had one of the best players in the league on defense last year, which is awful. But if you don't have, if your 11th guy is solid and then you just got one or two tilters, you can legitimately be the best defense in the league. I think the Broncos last year were another good example of that. They had a couple of tilters and then just their 11th guy was fine and they were elite.

31:23Robert Mays: And I think they have flexibility on the back end now. You bring in M &W, you can do a few more different things. But I think the difference is, if I look at the Chargers team last year, I think it's a lot of C-pluses, B-minuses. With this team, I think it's a lot of B-pluses. I think it's that same idea just lifted to one step above. And I think that's why the ceiling and also the sturdiness. The Chargers felt a little bit more fragile. You saw that as we went deeper into the season. Yeah, and they were banked up in the secondary and all that stuff. But I think the overall level is taking up one notch with this team.

31:54Robert Mays: So when you combine 10 B plus, let's say nine B pluses and two A's, I think that is with Mike McDonald, the complexion of potentially the best defense in the league. Yeah, Baltimore probably has the best secondary in the league. And then but right now I say Seattle has a good argument for the best one in the NFC. Like I think, man, I'm really high. I think Detroit is also going to be really good. I'm really high on Detroit. I love DJ Reed. I think Seattle should have paid him. But anyway, I think... Are you worried about that second corner spot? As you think about the 11 guys, is that Josh Joe spot the one that is kind of lingering in the back of your mind?

32:29I think that when they're in base, so when they're just Reek, Spoon, other corners, and then Kobe Bryant, Julian Love, I'm not worried at all. I think that is nails in their base defense. Because I think Reek's thing, he's one of these weird players where talent's not the issue? No. I just talked to Reek the other day. He was like, yeah, the biggest thing I'm working on is staying locked in. He just talked about, yeah, you just can't fall asleep at corner. You have to, the one time you think the ball's not coming when the ball comes and it can be a big play. Now you look at the DeMarcus Robinson touchdown last year for the game winner in overtime against the Rams.

32:59Perfect example. He just looked like he didn't expect to get targeted. Boom, game's over. So if Rick is locked in, Spoon, I know what he's going to do. I love Kobe Bryant. I think he's one of those guys with the mentality who could have played in the Legion. Boom. Julian Love is probably the smartest player on the defense. I'm not really worried. Josh Jobe, actually, he's a perfect example that I was talking about with your weak link. If he's your fifth best DB, you're okay. I think Josh gave up one touchdown last year in the Jets game. That's it. I think he's a really solid player, and he's good at what Pete – this is why Pete was a good floor raiser for DBs.

33:34He could teach you to just not get beat over the top. And in this game, if you can just consistently not get beat, even if you ran 4-6, you know, he was out there with Michael Jackson's of the world, Trey Flowers, you know. He could just teach you, hey, man, just don't get beat. I don't care if you run four or five. I can teach you the right technique. You do that down and down and down and down and down. We'll be OK. And I think that's what Josh Chobe brings. He's just consistently locked in every day as thinking that the ball is going to come to him every play. And he works like that, kind of the opposite of Rick.

34:07He thinks the ball is coming every play. So I'm not too worried about it. I honestly think they're secondary, but we could have this conversation in five months. And I think we'll be talking about, wow, the Seahawks had a top five secondary.

34:17Robert Mays: I wouldn't be surprised by that at all. again, I mean, where it gives you a little flexibility to, and then not even just in those base looks, but if you have five DBS out there and he's playing in a slot for you and spoon can bump outside, like, I think there are a lot of versions and iterations of this where it's a really good group. And you combine that with the front that again, maybe doesn't have any superstar players outside of Leonard Williams, but really well. So, I mean, I think that's important to keep acknowledging that. Cause I think we kind of lump him into that tier based on what his career looks like.

34:43Robert Mays: He's been a good player, not a great player all the time. Last year, he was a great player. So you combine that with, again, not a lot of weak links, a lot of diversity, a lot of flexibility. I think there are reasons to be excited about this defense. Yeah, and I've seen countless times that just sometimes the one weak link can be everything. We're watching them in 2019. That defense was really good in that Packers game, the divisional round. Problem was Trey Flowers that day could do nothing with Devontae Adams. Curtains. I was there. Yeah. See, you remember. Yeah. I've watched games where even up front, it's like there's 10 good guys on the game, but Daryl Taylor's not setting the edge.

35:19So now Christian McCaffrey has 175 yards rushing. Sometimes that can be all it takes is that one dude, and the good coordinators will find you, particularly from this tree that we see, McVay's tree and Shanahan. They'll find you. I watched in 2019 the NFC Championship. I forget which Green Bay linebacker wasn't good, but they just kept running at him, and most of it just looked like Bo Jackson in the NFC title game, like four touchdowns, 200 yards or something. That can be any team on any given week. if you're led with guys in solid, I think the Seahawks are in a really good spot on top of Mike McDonald being a psycho.

35:51Like when he sits in there, like I can imagine he's a young, he's a father of a young kid, just like me. His son's not even a year old. I can imagine Mike just sitting there, the baby's crying. And he's just like, I got to finish dialing up this blitz. That diaper's just going to have to get full of poop until I finish this, this, this third medium blitz package, because we got Shanahan coming up. I can see that. And you know, I don't blame him because being the psycho in that way is going to keep the OCs up at night. And that's what this team needs. Like you said, if they're going to be the best defense in the league, which they think they can be.

36:20Robert Mays: We could do this forever. This team has always been an endless fascination with me for whatever reason that I can't seem to figure out, but we got to go to practice. Michael Sean Dugar, always appreciate the time, sir. Great to chat with you. Oh, thanks for having me. Always. I know, I know none of us really wants to admit it, but the end of the summer is approaching. Quince can help take some of the sting out of it though, because look, When you look good, you feel good, and maybe you don't mind that the summer is over, and with the fall staples that Quince can provide, you are going to look very, very good.

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40:50Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Falcons writer here at The Athletic, Josh Kendall. Josh, great to see you. Good to see you. Jeff Olbert today was speaking at the podium after practice. And I figured that would be a good place to start because the offense on this team is the same. There are no new pieces. I don't even look over there. Yeah, they I mean, they're obviously what Michael Penix is doing. It's a fascinating conversation. And when we'll get into the expectations on that side of the ball. But there are two teams in the league that really added no offensive pieces this offseason. One was the Arizona Cardinals and one was the Atlanta Falcons.

41:21Robert Mays: And so there aren't a lot of moving parts over there to address on defense. There are a thousand moving parts. You talk about all the personnel changes, the rotation on the defensive line, and then some of the schematic changes that are obviously coming. As you're paying attention now, as we get four or five days into camp, what on that side of the ball have you found most interesting? And what do you find yourself paying attention to? The defensive line and the rotation, because for a variety of reasons, they've added two edge rushers in Jalen Walker and James Pierce. James Pierce was, you know, the star of today's practice with some extracurricular stuff.

41:59But they've also got some weird bodies on the interior. You know, Zach Harrison, I really liked a few years ago when they drafted him as a 4-3 defensive end. He seemed to fit perfectly. I don't know what you do with him. Rook seems pretty – Rook Aroro seems pretty settled in the middle. But where does Brandon Dorlis go? You know, how much does Contavious Street play just because they have to stop the run at some point, theoretically? What does David Onyemata have left? I mean, he's a good football player, but he's also on the wrong side of 30. So how those pieces fit together, I still have no clue.

42:34Robert Mays: It was one of the more interesting parts of this offseason, because if you look at the way this defense had been built over the last couple of years and some of the skill sets that they were seeking out, it's funny. With Dean Pease, they were really weird. And then in year one with Jimmy Lake, they were kind of weird. And now you're going to a much more traditional place, theoretically, with Jeff Ulbrich when it comes to body types. So who do you think in terms of the more unique body types that maybe fit previous versions of this defense could be the odd man out as we figure out this version of the rotation?

43:03Braylon Trice, third round pick last year, tore his knee up in preseason. So he didn't play at all. But he's not Jalen Walker and he's not James Pierce. He is a big edge. He's not a super athletic guy. I think they like Lake liked him better than maybe Albrook likes him. And Brandon Dorliss, I just don't know where he fits in. He's a big end, but Zach Harrison's a big end, too, and I think he's probably a better big end. I don't know if Brandon Dorliss eventually gets shuffled out of the rotation. David Onyemata, I think, is a pretty versatile guy.

43:37Robert Mays: He comes from that world, so I think there's a little bit more carryover from what he did in New Orleans and just his overall background than some of these younger guys who've played in more multiple fronts. And Abiketti is a guy, Arnold Abiketti is a guy who's been gradually getting better, but there's been no jump. It's just he's just sort of grinded, you know, through the process. And he could end up, if they like the juice of these new guys, Abiketti could end up finding himself the odd man out. Is there anybody among that group? Obviously, it's really early. We're not even putting pads on yet.

44:09Robert Mays: But in talking to people about who they maybe expect to take one of those jumps, is there anybody that comes to mind for you? among that group. Jalen Walker is a rookie, obviously. Didn't see him out there today.

44:24Nobody, almost the opposite, they don't even talk about him. In their mind, he's in there. He is going to get plenty of opportunities. He is a known commodity already in their head.

44:36Robert Mays: And he's just an edge rusher at this point all the way through camp. He is just an edge rusher. you think of him as a great versatile piece. In reality, I don't know. I spoke to some folks in his background who say he's an elite edge rusher. Despite his size, which may not be ideal, his future is at edge rush. It is not necessarily in the middle. The Falcons keep insisting they're going to put him out there and leave him out there. We'll see how it works. part of it probably will be how successful he is. If they have to move him around because he's just not big enough and he can't play out there full time, then you have to move him around.

45:18But I think they think he is an edge rusher.

45:21Robert Mays: There's a few things to kind of keep in mind there. Obviously, him and Micah Parsons is a unique player, but there was that time early in Micah Parsons' career where they were moving him around from different spots, and I think the Cowboys eventually landed in. He's an edge rusher. He's one of the best edge rushers in the league. Doing that and his role in that is the best application of him. There's also a school of thought. I was talking to people in Seattle yesterday when I was there about Nick Aminwari and the idea of even if you have a versatile piece, sometimes early in a player's career, shrinking that scope a little bit, allowing them to focus on one thing, that's the quickest way for them to have some early success.

45:53Robert Mays: I think coming from a couple different directions, you can make an argument that limiting what's on his plate early might be the right approach. I think that's a Jeff Ulbricht thing. He and his staff have mentioned several times the idea of putting really good athletes on repeat. We don't want you to have three or four, five different things to do. We want you to get good at one thing. And if you're if you are, we'll give you a chance to go do it over and over and over again. It's funny him mentioning today he was talking about how they've gotten eleven hundred snaps out of their base for three front.

46:25Robert Mays: And the fact that he said that out loud, they clearly are prioritizing how many repetitions they're getting there. And I think when you're moving to this sort of defense, being able to kind of ingrain that mindset in the defensive line and make it a second nature thing, this attacking mentality, repping that as many times as you possibly can is the way for guys to kind of naturally adapt that mindset. And so getting him as many opportunities as he can in that exact style of play, I get that as an approach if you're the Falcons. And also, you've got a lot of guys that you've got to audition. You've got it.

46:58So it gives you a chance and which they have done a ton. I couldn't tell you right now who they like the best where because they're rolling guys liberally. And the amount of reps gives them a chance to do that.

47:10Robert Mays: On the second level of defense, Caden Ellis is somebody that every coach is really excited about every guy at this point in the calendar. You got to take everything with like a pound of salt. But to hear Jeff Ulbrich talk about Caden Ellis specifically and just the strides he could potentially make is more of a true off-ball linebacker beyond some of the pass rush that he's giving. I'm inclined to believe that there is a little bit of inherent excitement about that based on the way that he presented it today. They love Caden Ellis, who is a seventh year guy and a 30 year old who is probably pretty rarely uniquely adding stuff to his game.

47:45Robert Mays: I was looking up his age as Jeff Oberg was talking. I was like, how old is Caden Ellis to be talking about him this way? And I noticed that he was 30. But so but he almost had three red shirt, gray shirt seasons in New Orleans. as they brought him along, he didn't really bust out as a player till his fourth year in the league. There's no doubt. So he is still learning and he led the NFL in pressure percentage, not just last year, but over the last three years, nobody has a better pressure percentage than Caden Ellis. Obviously some of that is because, you know, you're not necessarily expecting that guy to come on a lot, but he's a really good instinctive pass rusher in the interior.

48:25There's no doubt about that.

48:26Robert Mays: I think some guys, they juice up those numbers because they're getting a lot of free runs at the quarterback. He is actually a talented pass rusher who happens to play a linebacker. It is a unique entity among guys at that position in the league. So how much do they send him? How much can they send him? What's the balance there? I think is another interesting thing. There's no doubt because I think in the previous version of this defense, you could do it pretty liberally based on the way that they wanted to play. I think the pressure packages were funkier. The deployment of players was funkier.

48:54Robert Mays: I don't want to say this is a more rigid defense. It's just a little bit more traditional. You're just not going to be painting outside of the lines quite as often. And so you probably have to scale yourself back when it comes to those sorts of ideas that maybe seem a little untraditional. Jeff Holbrook, exactly. And Jeff Holbrook said something interesting in one of his first appearances with us. He said, if my guys come to the sideline and I can't give them when they get beat and I can't give them an answer as to why, that's a fireable offense. He says that after replacing a guy who just got fired.

49:29And he's saying that, so he talks a lot about a limited menu because I'm going to give you rules for every situation. I'm not going to put so much on your plate that I can't explain to you in pretty simple terms what went wrong when it goes wrong.

49:49Robert Mays: As we move back further in the defense, I think the secondary is also a significant question. They draft two guys, I believe a third round pick and a fourth round pick, right? Yeah. With the safety whose name I can't remember. Xavier Watts. Xavier Watts. Billy Bowman. Billy Bowman. Yes. And so that was my question. So how do you see those two guys playing into their plans in the secondary? Do you think those guys will get a chance to start at safety and nickel respectively? Or do you feel like there are more depth pieces at this stage? I think Xavier Watts will get half a chance to start, but I don't expect it to happen.

50:20and I expect them to work him in. I think he's probably a depth piece, at least to begin with. I think Billy Bowman's got a chance to start at nickel because D. Alford has played a lot there over the last two years and has been a fine player. Great story, but not a great player. Billy Bowman is an aggressively willing tackler. He is best suited for that role, And I think that this team that knows it's going to be a nickel, but also knows it's going to have trouble stopping the run, is going to lean toward that trait when it's making business decisions. So I think that does give Billy Bowman a legitimate chance to start at nickel.

51:02Robert Mays: It's a really good thing to point out. D 'Alfred, for everything he has brought, he still is an undersized player. He's just not bringing that level of physicality. So that's all three levels of the defense. Just to zoom it back out. What are reasonable expectations for this defense? Because I think people probably assume this offensive things break right for them. The Penix continues to play the way he did in the final two, three weeks of the season, which we'll talk about. This can be a borderline top 10 group. It's about whether the defense is doing its share of the lifting. So as you think about all of the questions, all the moving pieces on that side of the ball, what do you think is a reasonable expectation for where this group can land?

51:37if you can get close to 20th statistically and whichever of the statistics you want to want to talk about if you can get to that level if you can go from bad and a real you know disheartening problem which that defense was at the end of last year to that's a generous gentle way of framing i don't like that to okay we've got a chance we give our we're giving ourselves a chance if you can get to that yes this could be a playoff team i think but But you're not talking about a top 15 defense. Top 20, they'd be passing out confetti.

52:12Robert Mays: It's interesting because I think there are some offensive coaches around the league that kind of bang this drum when I talk to them about this scheme specifically. And the thought is you need players to run this defense. You need talent to run this defense. If there's a lack of talent, you see some of the holes. And I think we've seen that with San Francisco a little bit. And I think there have been some other examples. And so it's an interesting push and pull, because even if you have hope for some of the younger pieces on this defense, it's not an overly talented defense. So I think what you're kind of betting on is a change in play style and mentality as a way to lift this group in a way it hasn't been before.

52:46Robert Mays: Whether that can overcome some of the talent deficiencies to me kind of becomes the central question. I don't know the answer to that. I don't either, but I think you saw them. They have they clearly have gone from they clearly wanted to get younger. and higher ceiling defensively. James Pierce is a roll of the dice. But if it hits, he's a kind of juice guy that you don't have. Jalen Walker, to some degree, is that. Billy Bowman, we talked about, gives you a little bit more of an element of that. So they are taking some chances because I do think that they came in, that they looked at this unit and saw a real lack of that, a real lack of even the potential for that type of juice.

53:27Robert Mays: That sort of urgency, chasing those sorts of talents and then being really aggressive to find them the way they were with James Pierce trading away next year's one. What do you think that says about where Terry Fontenot is right now and what sort of pressure there is on him to have pretty good results with this team this year? Certainly entering year five, there is pressure, but he's operated this way the last three seasons. The first two years that he came in with Arthur Smith, their marching orders were pretty clear, and they've carried them out pretty dutifully. Yeah, there's been like$80 on the roster.

53:59Let's turn this thing over. Let's get our cap in good position, get ourselves into a spot where we can now start to. But since then, he's been aggressive to probably a fault. Justin Simmons, Matthew Judon were mistakes last year. Not just because, well, I guess partly because they weren't the players they thought they might be. But partly because they viewed themselves as a Matthew Judon and a Justin Simmons away, which they clearly were not. So Terry has been an aggressive guy the last three seasons. I don't think this is necessarily an indication of this. I'm going into my final year if things don't change, although that could absolutely be the reality.

54:40Robert Mays: It's funny. I think that's one of the quieter impact parts of the Cousins panic's dual timelines is when you make the Simmons move, when you make the Judon move. Those are Kirk Cousins timeline moves. And now they're on the Michael Penix timeline. And we don't have to relitigate that entire thing. But them deciding to give themselves the insurance there, them thinking he was a special player, you know, we can win both now and in the future. I get it to a certain extent. But now that it's gone definitively toward the Penix part of it, some of the moves they made last year make even less sense in retrospect.

55:12Oh, 100 percent. Yeah. You know, they did not expect. They hoped. I believe this is not coming from anybody saying this. they thought, let's get two good years out of Kirk. Let's get Kirk's last, air quotes, last two good years, and then we'll move on to the kid. And they absolutely behaved like that. And for nine games last year, boy, they looked, you know, it looked like it was going to work out swimmingly. And then it all went to hell. So now you're dealing with that.

55:40Robert Mays: Do you think there is a price that could pry Kirk out of here? Like, what do you think it would take for somebody to call Terry Fano right now and be willing to trade him? I don't think it would be a prohibitive cost. I don't guess a fourth-rounder. I think if a fourth-rounder got it done, it might be done already. I think that Atlanta is, without being craven about it, is waiting for somebody to be desperate, is waiting for an injury, is waiting for somebody to say, all right, here's a three, here's a third round. I mean, I think if you came with a third-round pick, you'd probably get Kirk Cousins.

56:19Robert Mays: It's a really interesting dynamic because I think with a lot of guys, I've talked to people about this and people in the league, and Kirk's just not enough of an asshole to be a problem. With some guys, they would just be a problem. And so the two downsides to keeping a guy like this on the roster, one, you are giving him$20 million in cash. You still have to write that check. Arthur Blank has to sign off on that decision. There's real downside to that because that's actual money. Then the other side of it is a guy who has been in league for a while as a veteran who's had some success. There are plenty of examples of that archetype of player.

56:49Robert Mays: That would be a pain in the ass. They would not be somebody you would want around if you have a young quarterback. Right. And there'd be a little bit of venom involved in that. That's just not who Kirk Cousins is. And so if you're fine with either of those two downside cases, there's not really a reason not to wait to see if something breaks your way and you can get something for him. The third downside, the third potential, you're absolutely right. And I think they feel very comfortable with that. The third downside is the looming specter of Michael Penix, who has started three games. If he falters.

57:20If he is scuffling. If this had been a quarterback competition yesterday at yesterday's practice, Kirk Cousins would have won the job. Kirk Cousins can still play. Kirk Cousins is a good quarterback. So how badly does Michael Penix, you know, this staff has painted themselves into a real corner with Michael Penix as our guy. But if he is, you know, stubbing his toe over and over and things are going bad again this year, then Kirk Cousins doesn't have to say anything because his teammates are saying, you know, what are we doing here?

57:57Robert Mays: Based on the kind of the outward messaging and spin and what we saw from him last year, it does feel like there's a reasonable amount of confidence that their offense with Michael Panix could be really good this year. Am I understanding that incorrectly? But surprisingly, amount of confidence from my perspective, I am consistently. I consistently notice the fact that they in this building have left no room for the idea that it's not going to be treated as a given almost based on what they've said. Yeah, it's like, yeah, here we go. We're off to the races now. And maybe they are. But he's played three games.

58:35Robert Mays: What are your biggest questions about him? I mean, based on extrapolating the flashes we saw last year to an entire season, being able to do that, what do you think are the main challenges that you've been thinking about? I think to a large degree, it comes down to accuracy. He has got I mean, he throws the ball beautifully. It is beautiful to watch. He is aggressive in a way that this offense rewards. He is smart. He is well liked by his teammates. The moment is not too big for him. We saw all that. He can handle all of that. But he will spray some. Through his career, he has sprayed some. It's just the way he throws the ball.

59:1458 % last year. A lot of factors. We can excuse that to some degree. But that's just not going to be good enough. Can he live at 64 or 65? If he can, I don't know that I have any real questions about Michael Penix. But we don't know that he can yet. And if he can't, I don't think you can live at 58.

59:37Robert Mays: Outside of the quarterback, which is obviously a huge question, and I think that's totally reasonable. I think you watch it, and he does throw certain throws beautifully, as well as anybody in the league. But it is a little bit more inconsistent in some areas of the field than you want it to be. I think there's enough to glob onto where I find myself optimistic. I think there are limitations to his game, and we've talked about it a lot on the show over the course of the summer as we've done a second-year quarterback shows and just various quarterback breakdown shows. I think he's not nearly as mobile and fluid in the pocket in terms of movement as somebody with his testing numbers would lead you to believe he's a little bit more robotic.

1:00:12Robert Mays: But I do think that the arm strength to certain areas of the field and combined with he is a very quick processor for a young player. He'll get to check downs in a way that young quarterbacks don't all the time, which he needs to because of the way he plays. If you're going to be a little bit robotic and static in the pocket, you need to know where your outlets are. And I was actually impressed with his ability to do that. And so I think even if he has some limitations with how he moves and throws, he can access because of that. I'm optimistic about where his skill set currently is. As you project the rest of the offensive roster, again, this is all the same guys coming back.

1:00:48Robert Mays: Where are your biggest questions? Like what are the swing points from being the 12th offense in the league where things look pretty good, similar to what they were last year? And this being the third best offense in the league and a group that can maybe dictate a playoff run for this team? Kyle Pitts fits into that question. The eternal question. But I don't even know at this point if he's certainly not the first or second answer to that question. I think Darnell Mooney and Ray-Ray McLeod, DJ Chark, who they just signed, Kaderil Hodge. Drake London, for me, is a known commodity. I think Drake London's a really good player.

1:01:25I'm not sure he's a great player. I think he's really good. I think he's a fine number one. those other guys. But more importantly for me, it's Bajon Robinson. And John Robinson is electric, but they drafted John Robinson as a quote-unquote home run hitter. He doesn't hit a lot of home runs. He is longest career run is 38 yards. He's got like four runs in his career, two years, but I'm saying I know it's just two years of longer than 30 yards. He is the most dynamic doubles hitter in the NFL, but they need to get some easy ones. and they have focused on that this offseason. They're fully aware of that.

1:02:06Bajon's fully aware of that. They've got to get more easy scores from Bajon Robinson for as much as he touches the ball.

1:02:16Robert Mays: Are you surprised they weren't a little bit more intentional about adding one more pass catcher in that Ray McLeod spot just to add some competition even? I mean, J.J. Chark is somebody that's played for every team in the league at this point, right? There's a reason he keeps bouncing around year to year. It's getting a little bit older. He has an injury history. Are you surprised they didn't try to seek out one more piece that maybe could be more of a, if not a sure thing, than a long term part of the plan here? Yes, I am. They drafted Casey Washington in the sixth round a couple of years ago.

1:02:46They like him, but I haven't seen him take a step yet to where, you know, you're thinking, yes, he is that guy in the next year or two. I think what it speaks to to me is. We love our roles. We love we know who Drake is. we know who Darnell is and we know who Ray Ray is and we love that they know it too. Everybody knows where they fit and is happy to play that role. And I don't know that they wanted to cloud that up any. That makes you very vulnerable to injury. Darnell Mooney is not on the practice field, not seriously hurt, but is not on the practice field at the moment. So you're taking a real risk there.

1:03:26Yeah, I totally agree.

1:03:27Robert Mays: Because I do think that they do have crystallized roles and currently stands. And if those guys stay healthy, you can understand the vision. I actually think Darnell Mooney's skill set on some of those like deeper outbreaking vertical routes when Michael Penix brings. I like the way that that all fits together. But if you lose one of those guys, I think you're in big trouble in a hurry. Yeah. I mean, Zach Robinson would, you know, in his perfect world, he'd only carry three wide receivers on the roster. They play 100 % of the snaps. We don't need to play 80 snaps a game. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what the Rams have done for years.

1:03:55Robert Mays: Right. I mean, like it's that's kind of the world that they come from. So I'm not necessarily surprised to hear them say that. The Bichon thing, hitting more home runs, kind of bring me to mind the final thing I want to ask you about. What are the other priorities as they've communicated them to you guys where it's like, all right, even if we were pretty good last year, these are the two or three areas where we are hyper focused on improvement. I think Kyle Pitts, we mentioned, is a constant source of that. Michael Panix has said we want to be the number one offense in the league. You're going to have to get more big plays.

1:04:28You're going to have to be more explosive, not just from Bijan, but from everybody in this offense. I think that probably the down-the-field stuff, even when Kirk was at his healthiest last year in those first nine games when things were running smoothly, their scattershot, their heat map on the passing game was pretty consistent and fairly limited. It is not going to be anymore. they feel like they like their run game they love their run game and they feel like they can open it up more this year by getting the ball down the field the center's name is pronounced what news

1:05:04Robert Mays: news that's what that's what i figured how do they feel about you know obviously you're changing out a guy who got paid a lot of money in free agency at center the cohesion with that group with a new center what have they talked about with that how do they feel about that moving forward almost almost a pennix level of confidence will be fine yeah they they love ryan newsle they've loved ryan Nuzel for a long time. Kirk Cousins an hour ago just talked about how much he loves Ryan Nuzel and how he was concerned that he's pretty particular about his center and keeping the same center. Doesn't like changing.

1:05:34He was concerned last year when Dalvin went out because he just was getting an unknown commodity in Nuzel. They didn't skip a beat. Spoke very highly of him. I think the whole staff feels the same way.

1:05:45Robert Mays: Yeah, he's gotten time. He's gotten time with that group. So it's not like you've never seen him in that spot before. I think we've seen this around the league in recent years where even if you're losing a center If you have four quality pieces around him, Denver comes to mind, right? They move on from Christian Barry. They put Luke Wattenberg in there. And that still was one of the more buttoned up, put together offensive lines in the league. And so if you have one piece that you need to integrate and you have good coaching on that side, which I think Dwayne Ledford has provided them, it's a little easier to overcome one spot being swapped out.

1:06:13And Nuzel's been here for three years. I mean, Nuzel's been taking these reps with Dwayne Ledford for three, four years. That's all I got for you, Josh.

1:06:20Robert Mays: Really, really appreciate the time. Great to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. Thanks for having me. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. If you're anything like me, you know you'd do just about anything for your pet, which is a nice sentiment, but also a scary one. Because if you've ever owned a pet, you know they run on their own logic. They jump first, they think later, they ask questions, never. It's part of what makes them so lovable, but it's also how you end up with surprise vet visits you didn't see coming. That's why ASPCA Pet Health Insurance helps cover eligible vet expenses.

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1:08:28Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Ravens writer here at The Athletic, Jeff Zrebeck. Jeff, great to see you. Good to see you, Robert. It's always fun to have a friend out here at practice. I don't know how you guys do the mid-Atlantic summer. I truly don't know how you guys do it. It's about 91 today. I lasted about 10 minutes before I started sweating through my clothes. Today was a big one. Today was a real one. Yeah. And they just happened to be on the one field that has zero shades over. So you picked a good one. Yeah. Jacksonville today and then this, or yesterday and then this today. I've been a sweaty person over the last 48 hours.

1:09:02Robert Mays: You and I were talking during practice and And this is a team where obviously when you reach this point, when you get to the doorstep consistently, there just isn't a ton of urgency to make big changes. And there aren't really any big changes. I mean, this is all small tweaks that we're thinking about. So I'm just curious for somebody in your position who's having to kind of report on the day to day machinations of this team and try to keep a fan base interested. Like what are the things you're focusing on? What do Baltimore Ravens fans want to know right now? Yeah. Yeah, you know, and yeah, that's a good point because, you know, they have 11 of 12 starters back and on offense.

1:09:39And the one 10 of 11, excuse me, I've been out in the heat for a while, too. And the one position that's kind of had they lost a guy, Patrick McCary. You know, they have a guy there who started week one and kind of lost his job because of injury and Andrew Voorhees. So, yeah, there's just not a whole lot of changes here beyond some the addition of some defensive pieces. is I think the biggest thing in my shoes. Because look, there's kicker drama a little bit. And there hasn't been that since 2012 when they last needed a kicker and Justin Tucker beat out Billy Cundiff. But otherwise, there's just not a whole lot of roster intrigue.

1:10:16Most of the roster spots are set. Now, there's always injuries that change things. And that's usually kind of the focus at this time. But I think I'm kind of more focused on the stuff that's held them back in the past. like penalties like it's it's been a big story this camp like how do we reduce the penalties everyone the most the only team that had more penalty yards against them was the jets and that's not good company to keep you know so um they brought in a former ref tony mccallick who's retired this off season and he's been kind of watching film with them and um they're working on cadences and different stuff to get it out of the way now so they're better prepared later this season when they go to different cadences to try to avoid some of the pre-snap stuff.

1:10:57But some of the issues that have kind of held them back, they've not, a lot's been said about their turnovers in the playoffs. They haven't created any either. And that's kind of been the part. I mean, they're not taking the ball away at all. And this defense needs to take the ball away. So they're doing a lot, emphasizing turnovers, penalties, stuff like that. So those are kind of the topics that I kind of keep an eye on this time of year.

1:11:21Robert Mays: This was the best offense in football last year, if you look at any sort of advanced metric. And we know that regression comes for everyone, right? You can't just bank on that year over year, even if you are bringing back 10 of 11 starters. So whether it's something that you've seen or whether it's something that you've talked to somebody about here, what sort of layers are they trying to add to this offense to make sure that they're consistently evolving in the right way? Yeah, I think the blitz at times has been a real problem here. You know, and there's been times where Lamar Jackson's been, you know, the number one quarterback in the face of the blitz.

1:11:56But then there's been other looks that he's just really struggled. And they're of an offense like, you know, offensive quarterback, Todd Munkin, you know, was talking about that earlier this week. And he's just like, we have everything that we need to be really good and to punish blood. He was so much better last year than he was two years ago when he won the MVP.

1:12:13Robert Mays: Yeah, that was kind of the thing I had always said. But if we're trying to stack up the best quarterbacks in the league, to me, coming into the 2024 season, Mahomes is Mahomes. And then Josh Allen to me was still that number two spot because I just feel like there are fewer areas where you could pick on Josh Allen. Lamar's numbers against the Blitz. And think about that Houston game and the Kansas City game in that playoffs. It's where he had most struggled. Last year, he was one of the best quarterbacks in the league at that. So I do feel like it's gotten better, but you still think for them, it's something that they're in front of mind.

1:12:40Yeah. I mean, they just, you know, look, defensive coordinators get all offseason. to kind of study and how to attack the Ravens. And that sort of seems to be, especially in big games, people go back to that against them. You know, I think they need to get the backs more involved at times in the passing game, you know, explosives. And they were really good at that last year, obviously. But I think most of them are in the run game at times, you know, or just kind of unscripted plays. And, you know, the Lamar, I don't want to say Lamar critics, But people who analyze the quarterback position, people a lot smarter than me, just feel like this offense needs to be on schedule a little more.

1:13:21And Lamar needs to be on time a little more and kind of less reliant on some of the, you know, when stuff breaks down, run around and find a guy.

1:13:29Robert Mays: Even when it's in structure, a lot of the damage that he does is deep into downs. He will hang in the pocket, wait for stuff. And it was to their benefit last year. But that's an interesting kind of push and pull that you probably have to think about. So when we think about even if the players are the same, some of the slotting and the hierarchy and how important some of the pass catchers are to the plan, it felt like Isaiah likely was going to be more prominent coming into this year. Now he's going to miss some time. Like, when do you see him getting back? And when he does get back, how do you see his role maybe expanding compared to what it looked like over the last couple of years when he was pretty clearly the number two title?

1:14:04Yeah. And, you know, I think he was the guy and he still is the guy that, you know, all three of their tight ends are contract year guys. And I think he's the guy that they envision heading this tight end group going forward. Now, I'm not ruling out they'll re-sign Mark Andrews, but I mean, likely he's five years younger. And I mean, I think he's the guy that's more likely to get the money. So I expected a bigger role from him, more opportunities for him. I also think there's something to be said for going a little easier on Mark Andrews' snaps early in the season. I mean, you were out there at practice.

1:14:36The guy plays every play in practice like it's a Super Bowl. And I think we've seen Mark Andrews struggle in the postseason. I always wonder about the cumulative effect of how hard he practices and how hard he plays, how many hits. But no doubt, I think everyone around this team expected likely to make a really big jump. He's gotten very close with Lamar on and off the field. Lamar trusts him. I mean, he's kind of become one of those jump ball guys. If he's covered, Lamar still feels like he could throw it. So, yeah, this is a little bit of a setback, Robert. I think it is. But and the one worry always, I think, when you talk foot injury, you know, how long, you know.

1:15:14Yeah. OK, maybe he's back on the field in six to eight weeks, which is what they hope. But how effective is it? Is it going to nag him all year? And for a guy who so depends on agility and athleticism. So six to eight weeks is the time frame. huh? I mean, that's a chunk of change. It is, yeah. So I think if you get him back in mid-September, but you also look at it as they play one of the toughest schedules in the league out of the box. So yeah, it's a setback, but one of the things that, you know, I've noticed here, and I just wonder about this team, is just kind of the touches and, you know, there's a lot of mouths to feed on this offense, and both of them had, they're young players, but both Zay Flowers and Rashad Bateman had their best years of their young careers.

1:15:57Derek Henry obviously had a great year. DeAndre Hopkins is their number three receiver, but I don't think he looks at him. The guy's a future Hall of Famer. I don't think he looks at himself like I'm a number three. And they want to get Keith Mitchell more involved in the passing game. We've seen it a lot out here. So there's a lot of mouths to feed. So I think this gives them an opportunity too. And Lamar, when things go down, he kind of looks at those tight ends as a security blanket. So I think this will challenge them to get other guys involved, maybe not be so tight end reliant. So I think there's a silver lining there too.

1:16:30But I think for this offense to be as good as they think it can be, they're going to need a healthy Isaiah Likely down the stretch.

1:16:36Robert Mays: A layer to the tight end usage is that this team didn't have Charlie Kohler for a huge chunk of last season. And so now, if Likely comes back and you still want to play a lot of 12 personnel, if you want to take some of that mileage off of Mark Andrews, because Likely is not a physical inline walker, then at least having Charlie Kohler in the mix to be able to live that way but still not have Andrews on the field for 65 snaps. They could theoretically do that. And I think Kohler deserves to play more. He's a nice player. He really is. I mean, you know, it's kind of the we joke around about it.

1:17:07It's like they always seem to draft two tight ends in the same draft. And the second guy they draft winds up being the better player. You know, like we saw it with it was Ed Dixon and Dennis Pitta. And, you know, Pitta turned out to be the guy. And Mark Andrews and Hayden Hurst. And it was Andrews. And now it's kind of like Cole, you know, likely has kind of jumped. Likely was a guy they really, the story goes, they wanted the kid, the guy Steelers drafted was Calvin Austin. Yeah, Calvin Austin. That was the guy that was set on picking and the Steelers snaked him right in front of him. And they're on the clock.

1:17:39I think it was the year they had these five fourth round picks. And they're just tossing names around at that point. Their board was completely taken up. And they asked Greg Roman, you think you can do anything with this likely guy? And he's become a really good player.

1:17:51Robert Mays: So that's the benefit of having five, four, three picks, though, if you can do that every once in a while. And because you have so many of them, you're going to stumble into a couple of these. Yeah. And that we were talking about this today. That's me applies to the way the offensive line has been built here over the years where they've taken so many of these guys in the middle rounds. And Ben Cleveland is one of those guys. He was working with the first team today at left guard. And again, that's kind of the one unsettled spot on the offense. How do you see that right now? And do you feel like that's still Andrew Voorhees' job to lose?

1:18:22I think it is Voorhees' job to lose. But the Cleveland thing is kind of interesting because, you know, he's a third-round pick. He's a guy, kind of one of the guys that John Harbaugh admitted it at the time. He stood on the table to draft him. In fact, he didn't want to wait. He was mad that they weren't trading up to get him. And yet, it's kind of felt like he's been in the doghouse ever since he's been here. And, you know, the rub with Ben Cleveland is when he plays in the games, he's been solid. You know, not, you know, we're not talking about any pro bowls here, but he's held his own and battled.

1:18:54But yet there's something about him, I think, that rubs them the wrong way. Like he doesn't practice very well. He doesn't have that. I mean, the guy is human. You know, he's a gigantic man. It's just it's, you know, these guys all lay lay in the same offensive line. Even with Linderbaum, your average is still going to be pretty good. So you watch him and they just they just want him to play bigger and be nastier and care more. and um you know look i think we were all surprised when they re-signed him but you know he had the legal issue in the offseason with the you know suspicion of dui he could get suspended you know like the the court case for him has been moved back to november so that may buy him some time usually the nfl waits on the ruling of that so maybe he'll be ready there for week one um but he's getting an opportunity that we have every for the last three years we've mentioned him as a penthouse starter and yet you get out here to the summer and training camp and he never gets first team reps so he is getting a little run here the first team which is a good sign but i think it's vorhees job but i think they want vorhees to be more consistent um to practice better um you know and he's a guy that lost his starting job this past year and in week two he got an ankle injury but when he was healthy he never got it back he then played in that final week 17 game against the browns that meant nothing but they you know they rested a lot of the starters, but he played and he looked like a completely different player.

1:20:15Now it's hard to evaluate players in a week 17 game. That doesn't mean a lot. The Browns had pretty much thrown in the towel by then, but they're hoping that could be a good momentum builder for him. And it sort of was a show of faith that they haven't gone out and, you know, gotten a veteran there like Sheriff is still available. So we'll see. I think he's in the lead, but I think he needs to play, be a little more consistent, play better. On the other side of the ball, obviously it's a mess at the beginning

1:20:38Robert Mays: of last year. You have a new defensive coordinator. And I think the under talked about part of this. I know we probably didn't talk about it enough, but you're deeply aware of it. It wasn't just the defensive coordinator change last year. It was that so many guys on the second layer of that staff were hired to be defensive coordinators elsewhere. Denard Wilson, Anthony Weaver. And so it really did feel like it took them a long time to get their footing on that side of the ball. But then Kyle Hamilton moves back to safety. It all starts to gel a little bit. And you look at some of the metrics, this was one of the best defenses, if not the best defense in football over the back half of last year.

1:21:12Robert Mays: So as you think about that, is that the expectation going into this year? Because there are some personnel questions, but none that are overly alarming. Again, it's kind of like the offense where it feels like we're nitpicking about some of the details here. Yeah, I think so. And I agree. I mean, that was such an underrated part of their struggles last year early was just the coaching. You know, it was just such a major brain drain here last offseason, you know, and not only do you lose all those guys, but you replace them with a guy in Zach or who would never call the defense before. So they knew that they knew there was probably going to be a learning curve and they feel like Zach or is a star and going to be a star.

1:21:52But they knew it would take time. It's still, you know. But, yeah, going forward, I think they feel like they have the pieces to be a dominant defense, one of the top defenses in the league. I feel like that's the standard here for years and years. the personnel is much improved. I think it's a nice mix of adding youth with guys like Malachi Starks and Mike Green. And you have some already young guys like Wiggins in there. And then you sign a couple of veterans like Awuze and Jair Alexander to kind of augment that group. It's a good group. They need to take the ball away, though. right um and i also think you know look nobody's really talking around the leads passing league no one's really talking about run defense but you know they got blown off the line in that bills playoff game for all the talk about lamar's turnovers and mark andrews is kind of folly in the fourth quarter there bills dominated them up front they just ran the ball down their throats now they didn't average a ton per carry but they controlled that game with their running game i mean josh allen really didn't have to do a ton except take care of the ball so um you know they lost Michael Pierce.

1:23:01He retired. So there are some questions there, you know, in the interior of that defense. How do you see that rotation going? I think John Jenkins is going to make this team. Obviously they signed him, but kind of an older journeyman. I don't expect him to play a ton of snaps. You know, and you'll have Matt Abike and Travis Jones inside. And I think Broderick Washington will be part of the rotation. I think that's an area where they're still looking at maybe another veteran at some point. But Travis Jones is a guy that they believe has star potential. Like, you know, star may be overstating it, but he was playing so well early in the season.

1:23:42If you go back to the early games last year, he was given some, you know, the Chiefs game in week one. He was a handful for Creed Humphrey. And I think he was really gathering momentum, but then he had the high ankle sprain. Didn't miss much time, played through it, but that's just an injury. So he wasn't the same player later in the season. I think they feel like a healthy Jones, a bulked-up Matt Abike, and Washington's a solid role player with a bit piece of Jenkins worked in. I think they feel like they'll be fine. But that's an area where they're one injury away from major questions.

1:24:15Robert Mays: And the edge rotation, it feels like, again, they're prioritizing how physical they want to be against the run on early downs. Tavius Robinson is somebody that not a lot of people outside of the Ravens fans probably think or know about him. But big bodied guy. I was talking to a coach earlier today. He's our best run defender on the edge. And so now he probably is going to get a lot of early down snaps. And then you bring Mike Green into the mix. It feels like for the first time in a while, it's easy to feel good about the collection of skill sets they have in that edge room, even going into the season before needing to sign veteran exile August 15th.

1:24:49And they're all out there. Clowney's out there. Z'Darrius Smith's out there. Judon's out there. Yeah, every former Raven is currently available. Yeah, Jihad Ward was just signed, but you could add him to the mix. But yeah, I think that's one of their most interesting position groups. You know, is Van Noy and O.A. going to get double-digit sacks again? Like, well, we don't know, but Van Noy does a lot for their defense. You know, does different things, not just rushing the passer. You know, there's a lot of motivated guys there. O.A.'s in a contract year and wasn't exactly thrilled about the talks this offseason.

1:25:24I think he would have liked to resign, but I think the Ravens are in show-me mode again, which they seem to just recycle pass rushers. Mike Green, I think, is the one guy who's going to be really interesting. You see it in flashes out there. It's like, wow, he plays so hard and plays with physicality. But you also see him get caught in the wash and have some bad reps. He's a rookie. I think speculation among Raven fans is he's going to be double-digit sack guy as a rookie. It's like, geez, he's not going to be able to feel enough to do that. I don't think so. That's kind of what it feels like.

1:25:56Robert Mays: It feels like he'll be used situationally early on. And I think there's parts where Robinson will bump inside a little bit. Davis Robinson can do that and help. You know, I think we'll see Matt Abike on the edge a little bit at times. So, yeah, I think it's an interesting rotation. They have a lot of guys, as you said, with different skill sets in different parts of their career, you know, that that they could kind of utilize to get after the quarterback. is this defense you know the sack numbers were very high last year but they need to take the ball away more that needs to be the next step here the other big personnel question on that side of the ball and to me it's the biggest personnel question maybe on the entire team which i know is nitpicking losing our darius washington is brutal because when you draft malachi starks i feel like now we have three safeties that we feel good about you go down to two and it just feels like you're pigeonholing yourself a little bit with how you can use kyle hamilton now because if you don't have that third safety you feel good about which was the case early last year, they needed to move him back there.

1:26:52Robert Mays: How do you think that third safety spot shakes out now without Ardarius Washington? And how does the cornerback rotation maybe play into how they're thinking about the secondary overall? Yeah, I mean, I don't think Ardarius Washington got enough credit last year. I love, I was just telling somebody today, I love watching him play. He's like truly one of my favorite players in the league to watch. You want to talk, you know, you want to talk about a guy who's, you know, undersized but sticks his nose in there, just a very smart player so yeah that was an underrated loss now they think they're gonna get him back this year but you know torn achilles they're saying november he it sounds like if you get anything from him that's aggressive the first time i heard that they that's they thought there was a chance to be playing this year i was like didn't he tear his achilles like in march yeah exactly so um you know i i think on paper you look at it and you say okay you got jair alexander and Nate Wiggins.

1:27:46I don't think there's been a more impressive player here through week than Nate Wiggins, you know, and I mean, you saw last year, like the completion numbers against him. He, he had a really good rookie year. He didn't really play a ton early. And I don't think people were talking about him much, but he had a good rookie year. And then you have Marlon Humphrey inside. And I, and I think he's better in the slot at this stage of his career. Um, and then with the two, you know, Hamilton and Starks back there. Um, but we know that's just not how they're going to you know they're going to show a lot of different looks and they want to load the field with defensive backs they're pretty thin at inside linebacker i think they're going to have to in a lot of ways um and they like to use three safety looks and who is that third guy now the leader in the clubhouse would be snusy kane who's a seventh round pick out of purdue um second year was one of their most active special teamers last year but didn't play a lot on defense now he's reshaped his body he's having a great off season but he's unproven and you know you have all these good corners I just have to wonder if we're gonna see you know we were seeing it a little with guys like you know some of their corners playing safety Marlon Humphrey can play safety in fact some people think that's his future when he gets a little older but who's a can play safety so I think you know they'll be low in the field with DBs and I think we'll see cornerbacks helping out in that safety but i do think that's the one area robert where they're looking see what else is out there whether that's a cut later this year a trade potentially i mean justin simmons is still out there i know he had a rough season but you know there's a pedigree there there's a couple other veteran safety still available i actually thought they were going to be into interested in blackman who i think just signed somewhere just new orleans yeah and i know um you know chuck being in indianapolis and you know i know he didn't play for him but chuck was obviously very tight end with gana manapolis yeah chuck pagano so i was a little surprised they weren't active on him but i think that's a role where a player not currently here will ultimately get or a cornerback will ultimately kind of take over that role because they're so flush at corner with

1:29:50Robert Mays: having a woozy and alexander now and moving woozy at a corner or to safety doesn't preclude you from moving him back to corner if alexander gets hurt because that's obviously the biggest question how many games you're going to get out of alexander but yeah that's a very deep position group for them right now so how that third safety spot shakes out in part because it allows you to unlock kyle hamilton in a different way that's why it almost feels like a more pressing question for this team than almost any other team in the league yeah and not to mention how much they like playing three safeties but you know look they don't want hamilton to be pigeonholed with hamilton as the deep safety like that's not you're not getting everything out of him if that's the case like they had to do it by necessity next last year because you know marcus williams and eddie jackson just did not work out and then they just needed some stability and he can do pretty much anything out there um you know i just you know we were watching today and you know these do these one on ones a lot of times safeties don't like to jump into those unless because they can look bad i mean those those drills are but no this guy's jumping in against slot receivers he just loves it so he's a great player but you need to use him to his strengths and in order to do that you need to have a little more stability at safety the last thing i'll ask you here i mean we talked a little bit about this at the combine this year but now as we're getting a little bit closer to the season as you take the temperature of people who root for this team is there anxiety about maybe a lack of ambition in some of the offseason moves i don't even think that's fair like i the guys they added especially in the draft it all makes sense to me but like is there some feeling of why can't we get over the top why can't we break through and how is this going to happen like how what's the vibes check and just the overall anxiety level among your readers right now as we get toward the season i think there's a feeling of i don't you know i don't care what happens anymore between september december wake me up we know yeah wake me up on january 15th show us that why is this year going to be different and until they sort of at least get to the super bowl and you know that just because the nature of their losses in these playoff games are just brutal because they they they're unrecognizable like they go out there and kind of they kind of stray away from their strengths they panic if they get behind they become sort of a mistake filled outfit and just like where's this been all year like you know that they go into you know they go into san francisco and christmas like very good christmas a very good san francisco team and just dump trucking and they're like this team when they're at their best is is the best team in football but yet when they hit the playoffs we haven't seen it so i think a lot of it is kind of look i i i don't care nothing i see in the regular season anymore is going to make me believe until we and that's a hard spot to be it's such a tough spot to be in but i don't blame anyone who feels that way because that like up and down emotional roller coaster of man we're the best team in football and then to get the rug pulled out from under you it would be frustrating to have happen over and over again but at the same time if you're the decision makers here i think that mindset of we're close right like we it just want the bout one bounce the ball one thing different here or there like there's no reason not to stay the course i still feel like is the right mindset yeah no i do too and then you got the sect there's always a sect of fans that you know john harbaugh's holding lamar back and they're wasting some of lamar's you know prime years i mean this guy played quarterback at a level one you know had one of the best years ever for a quarterback last year so um i get all that um but the way this organization runs this organization's always been about stability steve basciotti believes if you keep kicking at the can and giving yourself a chance to playoffs every year you're going to break through so it's not an organization that makes radical changes really i think fans are frustrated by that but yet when they go to the playoffs and are you know could win three straight division titles this year.

1:33:41It's tough to be too critical of what they're doing. I think they had a pretty good draft. I mean, we'll see. But, you know, you look out there, they've lost some players already. You mentioned it, likely, or Darius Washington. But it's one of the deepest rosters in football. There's no doubt. It feels like they're in such a good spot.

1:33:57Robert Mays: And again, it's kind of why it's a hard team to talk about. You're doing these little tiny details. But if John Harbaugh is holding Lamar back, I'd love to see how good Lamar would be without John Harbaugh. Jeff Zarebeck, always great to see you. Always great to chat with you, sir. Appreciate the time. Oh, thanks for having me, Robert. Great talking. Yeah. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Michael Sean. Thank you so much to Josh. And thank you so much to Jeff. We will be back tomorrow for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

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