The Chargers, Commanders and Steelers kick off the annual TAFS Most Interesting Teams of the Offseason Series

0:03Robert Mays: Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. We are coming to you from Indianapolis, Indiana is the 2026 scouting combine. One of my favorite points on the NFL calendar every single year. Like it's just become so routine to be back here at this time of year. Not the same sort of trip for me in this year. We talk about it with pop ragged, had a flat tire on the way here, which is a fun way to start the week. But other than that, it's very old hat. It's very comfortable. The place is here. I'm very used to being here this time of year. I always look forward to the conversations. And one of my favorite parts about coming to the combine every year is that all of our NFL writers are here.

0:41Robert Mays: And so that's typically how we've treated this week from our coverage perspective. And we're going to be doing the exact same thing again this year. The next three days on the athletic football show are going to be dedicated to nine teams that we are deeming the most interesting teams of the offseason. The criteria for this is all over the place. It could be teams with a lot of cap space. It could be teams that are experiencing a lot of turnover. It could be teams like the Pittsburgh Steelers we're going to talk about today that have a dozen draft picks this year. So it's a big tense, the most interesting teams of the offseason.

1:11Robert Mays: The three that we're starting with today, the Steelers, the Chargers, and the Commanders, just a bunch of different reasons that those are three that we wanted to hit. But a lot of teams with a bunch of capital this offseason, the Steelers are at a point of transition. We hit the Steelers with Mike DeFabo as our third conversation today. Kicking things off, Daniel Popper digging into the Chargers, their pursuit of Mike McDaniel. This is a team with maybe upwards of$100 million in cap space to throw around this year. Then we also chatted with our Commanders writer, Nikki Javala, about the Washington Commanders team that is very much in flux.

1:46Robert Mays: Potentially like a dozen new starters for this team. They could have like$80-ish million in cap space, two new coordinators. coordinators. So a lot to dig into with those three teams today. Let's get to it with each of those writers right now.

2:05Robert Mays: Joining us now, uh, kick off our most interesting teams of the off season series from a conference room in Indianapolis, Indiana. It's our old buddy, our chargers writer here at the athletic Daniel Popper. Popper. How are you doing, man? Doing great. Thanks for having me on, ready to talk some football. I am excited to be here. Uh, I am still settling myself. I got a flat tire on the way here and changed it on the highway. And so we had to push this back by like 15 minutes, but we made it, we made it. We're doing this. We're going to get through it. That's what India is all about. Being flexible, being prepared for the moment.

2:35Robert Mays: You know, I was, I woke up yesterday in Lima, it was 82 degrees. And so changing a tire on the side of the highway on, uh, I 65 going South and it was 27 degrees outside. And wherever I was, was a, it was a rude awakening.

2:50Mike DeFabo: It was a reminder that the combine is here and we're doing this.

2:54Robert Mays: Chargers are on this list for a few different reasons. The first of which is yet again, they have a ton of cap space heading into this season. You and I were just talking before we started recording. You look at the cap sheet right now and something like over the cap, it's around 80 million. They can free up a decent amount of space with a couple more moves. The offensive line play overall last year was a product, I think in part of the talent on the offensive line, but also partially some of the issues with the staff, the scheme, everything else. They move on from the offensive coordinator. Not a surprise.

3:22Robert Mays: When you watch what that performance looked like in the playoffs against the Patriots, it felt like it was a move you had to make. Yeah. Like that's kind of the conclusion that I came to. In your mind, after watching it happen and after talking to people there, what do you think was the ultimate deciding factor in them moving on from Greg Roman? Three points in a playoff game.

3:42Mike DeFabo: Yeah. And then you combine it with what happened against the Texans last year in year one of the regime and their failure to protect in that game. But ultimately, like in my opinion, over the course of the regular season, I thought Greg Roman actually did an OK job considering what happened to tackle losing Rashawn Slater before the season, losing Joel and starting in week four. And then again for the season in week nine, not having two of your five best players and your starting tackles really affected their ability to protect and play offense. And then you factor in all these other injuries that they had with Mekhi Becton in and out of the lineup.

4:16Mike DeFabo: They lost their swing tackle and Trey Pab, Trey Pipkins for a period of time. They lost Jamari salary. He was their fourth tackle for a period of time with a knee injury. They had 25 different starting line combinations. So I think Greg Roman deserves a little bit of credit for how he navigated that situation, still allowing the Chargers to get to 11 wins. But they did not play well enough in that playoff game. They went into that game and they should have been able to run the football. And Greg Roman, who is a run game guy, got away from the run when they had an opportunity to establish it early on in the game.

4:46Mike DeFabo: And so I think ultimately you look at the body of work in both playoff games and it just wasn't good enough. And they needed an offensive coordinator who could come in and give the quarterback layups, engineer and manufacture offense through the scheme itself and not put all of this on Justin Herbert's shoulders. And in the last two playoff games, he just hasn't been himself. He hasn't played his best football and there weren't any answers provided by the offensive scheme itself to get him out of the funk, to get him back on track, to get him into a rhythm. And I think ultimately this move was about how do the Chargers get a playoff win?

5:18Mike DeFabo: And they felt like they needed to make a change in offensive coordinator to get the offense in a place where they could do that.

5:22Robert Mays: Yeah, I can understand the case for Greg Grumman, keeping that thing afloat with the situation to tackle. And I do think I get why you would say that. I also think that we're now multiple stops in a row at watching a Greg Roman offense since severely struggled to pass protect, even when the guys are healthy, watching the interior, that trio of interior guys try to pass protect this year, even when they were all on the field, it's just untenable. And the end of the Baltimore era, that was their biggest issues. When teams would blitz them in high leverage games, they had no issues in pass protection.

5:53Robert Mays: And so I think that the talent and overcoming that was part of the discussion. But I also think that the infrastructure of a Greg Roman offense, multiple stops in a row, has shown real issues when you get to the most important games of the year. And so the idea that it was probably time to try something else, I think we were always going to get to this place with Greg Roman and Jim Harbaugh. We got here probably a year earlier than I might have expected.

6:16Mike DeFabo: Yeah, it's hard to separate those two things. Obviously, part of it was the plan and the scheme, but he also had three players in the interior that struggled in that very specific area. Like Zion Johnson improved as a player. He's a really good run blocker. He's not good at seeing stuff in front of his face, twists, stunts, blitzes. He just doesn't have those types of instincts. Mekhi Becton, like the reason that the Chargers signed him is because he was an excellent run blocker in Philadelphia. But he's never been an elite pass protector. So I think you have to at least acknowledge the talent level there and some of the weaknesses there.

6:42Mike DeFabo: But I do agree with you. From a plan standpoint, it was never good at nothing. Guys, heads are spinning.

6:47Robert Mays: It doesn't matter who's there. Whoever was there, their guys' heads are spinning consistently. And I think that ultimately that's what puts you in a place where you have to seek out something else. Absolutely. The guy they seek out is Mike McDaniel. Right. And so we talked a little bit about this, just you and I, from a buddy cop perspective, like watching Greg or Jim Harbaugh and Mike McDaniel interact for the next year is going to be something I'm very, very excited about when it comes to the Mike McDaniel solution specifically. What do you think pushed them to him as the choice, independent of the idea that he was probably just the best play caller on the market period?

7:22Mike DeFabo: Yeah, I think I start with, with providing layups for the quarterback and Mike McDaniel did that better than anybody in the league, arguably with two. It's full of them. Yeah. And you go back and you watch the Miami offense over the course of McDaniel's tenure there. And there's just so many easy completions where he is scheming guys wide open. And there's just not a lot on the quarterback shoulders in terms of creating explosive offense. And I think they got to a point with Greg Roman with this offense where so much was put on Justin Herbert's shoulders. And when they were successful offensively, it was him doing absolutely outrageous stuff in off-structure situations, like the Philadelphia game on Monday night when he was pulling the ball in a non-zone read situation, just calling his own number to rush the football.

8:02Mike DeFabo: I always think it broke his brain. You know, it was a lot. It's a lot of mental stress to go into a game and feel like you're not going to have any answers from your offensive coordinator to put you in an easy position to create explosive plays and that you have to be the offense entirely by yourself. Like that wears on a player, even if you're as talented as Justin Herbert is.

8:20Robert Mays: I think it creates bad habits too. I think that there were moments in the playoff game specifically where there are guys open and he's just not letting throws go because he gets so quickly into creation mode because of what the structure of the offense looked like the entire year. Right. And so being in a place where you make Daniel with him more than anything, I think that his ability to get a quarterback to play on time and kind of create a track for the quarterback to play on. You can do more than that with Justin Herbert, obviously, but we saw him do that consistently with two in Miami.

8:48Mike DeFabo: Right. And then so you get into these moments in the playoffs where like what's going on with Justin Herbert in the playoffs. There's a lot to dig through. Right. It's not one thing. Right. And then that's the issue. But what I'm saying is like he obviously has not played his best football in these moments. So something is going on. So do you have an offensive coordinator and a play caller who's going to be able to create and manufacture offense when your quarterback is not at that level that he typically is at? Can you get him back into a rhythm? Because that's what happened in that Patriots game is he was out of whack from the jump.

9:17Mike DeFabo: I mean, on that first drive of that game, he missed a wide open Ladd McConkie in an off structure situation. That would have been a touchdown. Just didn't see him. He wasn't seeing the field field well. So then it falls in the offensive coordinator. Like, OK, my guy is obviously not on the level that he's typically on. So how do we get into certain things offensively where he can just hit layups and move the ball because the offensive scheme is at a place where we can out scheme and out play call the defense on the other side? They just weren't in that position. And I think by bringing Mike McDaniel in, you have a guy that's proven he's capable of doing that.

9:48Mike DeFabo: And in those moments in the playoffs, you can get Justin Herbert back on track if he doesn't have his best stuff.

9:53Robert Mays: We'll have a lot of time to talk about how Mike McDaniel fits with the personnel and we have a better sense of the personnel as well. Because there are going to be some changes. So I want to save that conversation. The last coaching thing, to hire Chris O 'Leary to be their defensive coordinator after Jesse Minter moves on to be the head coach of the Ravens. Chris O 'Leary was the safeties coach in 2024 during Jesse Minter's first year there. who spent the 2025 season as a defensive coordinator for Western Michigan, had come from Notre Dame. So he's got a varied background. After kind of sitting with us for a little bit and talking to folks, why ultimately do they land on a 34-year-old one-year NFL assistant to be their defensive coordinator for what has been a top 10 defense the last two years?

10:32Mike DeFabo: They were looking at continuity, which I think is smart. You want to try and maintain some sort of scheme familiarity. You want to try and run a version of the same system. And I think that's why a lot of these interviews were focused on internal candidates. Steve Klinkscale, Dylan Roney, both interviewed. They're on staff currently. Chris O 'Leary was the name that is an internal option, but he left partly for family reasons to go to Western Michigan. But I think a big thing that I came back to was so much of this defense and what makes it unique is the role that they developed for Derwin James.

11:03Mike DeFabo: Chris O 'Leary was the point man in developing that role. Obviously, the broader big picture version of it came from Jesse Minter. You know, February, when Jesse first got the job, he met with Derwin and started planning out this role. But in terms of enacting it, building it on a day to day basis, it was Chris O 'Leary that was on the field with Derwin James, walking through all of the different route combinations that he might see from the nickel position and really building that role for Derwin James. You're talking about the most important player in the defense is Derwin and all the different hats that he can wear in him at nickel and affecting the run game in those areas, affecting the pass game.

11:33Mike DeFabo: Chris O 'Leary understands that role better than anybody else. You talk about his ability to onboard Elijah Molden, who they traded for in late August. he taught mold in the entire scheme in three days over the course of three, two and a half hour meetings. So I think it's the intellect. I think it's his familiarity with the scheme. I think it's his ability to communicate the energy. I think a lot of that stuff reminds you of Jesse Minter. Chris O 'Leary was actually a player at Indiana state when Jesse Minter was coordinating the defense there in 2011. That's when they first met Jesse Minter gave Chris O 'Leary his first coaching job at Georgia state in 2015.

12:03Mike DeFabo: So they go way back. And then most importantly, you turn on the Western Michigan tape, he's running Jesse's defense. Like it took me until the first third down of the game, they're in third and 16 and they have three safeties deep and they rotate to cover three out of it. And I'm like, that is Jesse Minter scheme. So then I started checking around and I'm like, is this actually Jesse scheme? And what I heard was he took the chargers installs and just put a Western Michigan logo at the top and brought it over. And it looked like that on film. So I think you put all those things together. You're looking for familiarity.

12:32Mike DeFabo: You're looking to maintain the scheme. You want the players to feel comfortable. You know, Chris O 'Leary is very close with all of these safeties, the guys that he worked with directly. I think you're talking about how do we get the next Jesse Minter? And I think they settled on Chris O 'Leary as the guy that could potentially be that.

12:44Robert Mays: Let's look at what this offseason might feel like specifically. We talked about the money. They could get upwards of$100 million in cap space based on a couple of small cuts that they could make. Start with the in-house guys first. They already bring back Tair Tartt, who was excellent last year. I mean, he just had an unbelievable season. I think he doubles his AAV from the one-year deal that he signed last year. Completely deserve it. It's about$10 million now. You have two edge rushers that are also free agents. two very different considerations right you have khalil mack hitting free agency after signing a one-year deal we know what khalil mack is at this point in his career still a very good every down edge rusher i think someone i if i were a contender if i were the bears right now and khalil mack wanted 18 million dollars i would think about it because i just think he's somebody that as part of a rotation still has a lot to offer but he's what 33 now 35 he's entered age 35 season see ageless khalil mack yes age 35 season you have a dafe oa on the other opposite end of this young ascending off his rookie rookie contract he's only 27 was extremely productive as a pass rusher last year but is more limited like right he's a smaller player he's more of a pass rusher than he is a run stuffer and so you have those two different skill sets both hitting free agency at the same time my assumption is they probably want to prioritize oh a just based on the age and based on what he did in the back half of the season do you see a world where with some of that space they bring back one or both of those guys that's what i'm thinking is that both of them come back.

14:05Mike DeFabo: Oh, that's what I think right now. Cause I asked Joe Hortiz after the season,

14:07Robert Mays: I was like, you know, I cannot wait until they bring back all their guys inside. No one in free agency. I cannot wait until that happens. The beauty is they can, they can resign all their

14:18Mike DeFabo: guys and sign guys in free agency, which I think is ultimately what's going to end up happening. And we'll get to some of these other guys. Cause I think there's some interesting conversations on other internal free agents in order for this defense to be at its best. You have to have three high quality edge rushers. And I think they learned that every team needs that, right? Yeah. I think they learned that early on last season though, when they tried to go into it, you know, after Joey Bosa left and they went into it with Tully and Khalil and Khalil got hurt and they were in a bad spot. Even with Tully, Tully below to ascending.

14:46Mike DeFabo: And so then they went out and they traded for Dafaio to bring back a really good group of three edge rushers. And all of a sudden they were that trio when they were on the field was producing pressure 55 % of the time. So I think they have to keep that group together. And also I think, and we've talked about this a lot, you have a green defensive coordinator and I think you have to give him talent with Jesse Minter. You knew that he was going to be able to do more with less. I think now the philosophy has to flip almost 180 degrees where you felt like you had to give Greg Roman a bunch of town on offense.

15:19Mike DeFabo: You could kind of give the defense less. And you felt like Jesse Minter was still going to produce a top 10 group. Now it's kind of flipped where you have a green defensive coordinator. You probably have to give him more talent. And now you're, you've gone out and gotten an elite offensive coordinator that you feel like might be able to do more with less. So I think you keep that group together. The other thing I would add here with the edge rushers, those three play really well together. They all compliment skill sets for sure. Complimentary. And they are also very unselfish. If you watch how they rush, like each one of them is willing to be the pick player in the stunt to provide an opportunity for another edge rusher.

15:51Mike DeFabo: And I think you can see that in the film over and over again throughout the year. They have the space. They know that group of three works well together. there's no guesswork involved and i think you might be like willing to pay a little bit more for the known quantity but i think both of those guys will be back that's where i'm at right now we'll see what happens with always market you know i think ideally you'd love to resign them at like 19 a year which is what josh sweat got i ended up projecting him in my free agent rankings at like 22 a year but they can make it work with the cap with there are a lot of those types of players

16:20Robert Mays: available in free agency we're going to do a show i'm deciding this right now because i was thinking about it in the car we're going to do a show next week i think the first free agent preview show i I want to do is just like an overview of this, the class itself, the qualities of it. Is it good? Is it bad? Where are the strengths? Where are the weaknesses? And then if you look at the pass pressure specifically, there are a lot of those like kind of undersized, like bendy guys, like always a speed rusher, boil my face, boil my face, a speed rusher. There's a lot of those guys in, in this group.

16:45Robert Mays: And so that might push his market down a little bit, right? If you have two of those guys, there's not just like one player at the top, like my face probably going to be in a similar sort of conversation would be my guess. Yeah.

16:56Mike DeFabo: A hundred percent.

16:56Robert Mays: So those, the edge rushers, I think that that all makes total sense here. Here's where I sit with this. Okay. You have, let's say that eats up, you know, I obviously those guys are going to, the number for 2026 is going to be lower than the AV. Let's say you still have like$55 million to work with after that's over. What happens with the interior offensive line? Like what, because last year I understood it in the moment. And I think this is going to be the push in the pole with the chargers. Joe Hortiz is not going to want to spend more on free agents than they're worth. He's not going to want to do it.

17:26Robert Mays: And so prioritizing the in-house guys with that money, it's not surprising to me, but we saw what the half measure along the interior of the offensive line looked like last year. There are a ton of interior offensive linemen going back to the class available in free agency this year. Some are going to cost a lot, but I think there are a lot of connective tissue type guys who also might be available. So is this the year after kind of letting their foot off the gas in the market last spring where they do spend a little bit? Because at this point, they kind of have to to fix those positions specifically.

17:58Robert Mays: I think they have to.

17:59Mike DeFabo: So here's what I would do. I would resign Zion Johnson because I don't think there's a better option available on the free agent market than than Zion. The only person I had rated higher than Zion, the free agent market was, say, Amalo from Pittsburgh. I think I'd rather have David. You have David Edwards. Right. There's some there's some other guys. But I thought Zion from week 13 to week 18 played the best football of his career. Now, the question is, where does his market go? You know, you don't want to give Zion Johnson the Aaron Banks deal because that would be a bad deal. But for me, I think they re-signed Zion because it makes the puzzle pieces fit together a little bit more easily.

18:32Mike DeFabo: The question is, will they spend at center? Like, will they spend to figure this out? I think they should. The question is, is Tyler Linderbaum even going to be available? There are fewer centers available than guards, right?

18:43Robert Mays: With center, it's like you're either shopping at the top of the market with Linderbaum or McGovern. And then McGovern.

18:48Mike DeFabo: I like Cade Mays personally. Luke Fortner is another guy I would throw out that I thought played decent football for New Orleans after he replaced Eric McCoy. But it's basically four guys. If Linderbaum returns to Baltimore, McGovern returns to Buffalo, how do you feel about Cade Mays? How do you feel about Luke Fortner? It gets a little bit more difficult to figure that spot out. It's not a good center class in the draft. Dane's highest rated center is 86th overall. so you know going that route is a little bit difficult but if you do re-sign Zion you can figure out the other two positions because if they move on from a Kybeckton they're gonna have to figure out right guard if you don't re-sign Zion you're not looking for three new starters on the interior that is really really difficult to do in one offseason between free agency and the draft

19:32Robert Mays: yeah teams came in the Bears landed the plane last year but it's hard to pull off I mean that

19:36Mike DeFabo: was incredible yeah right that was like one of the the most impressive like feats along the offensive line that i've seen from a team building perspective and in a long time but like it's very very challenging to do and you have to get creative in terms of the trade market you can't just attack free agency because like let's be real if david edwards hits free agency he's going to have a lot of interest if there's a like like average to quality starting offensive lineman available they get paid because and there's a reason for that because there's just not a lot of supply like There's a reason Dan Moore got$20.5 million a year last year.

20:06Mike DeFabo: Well, that's it's tackles are different than guards.

20:08Robert Mays: And it's like, and there are banks, Aaron banks is the example.

20:11Mike DeFabo: 90, 19.25 million dollars a year for a guy that to me is a below average starter.

20:15Robert Mays: Yeah, there are. And the guard market obviously has explored over the last couple of years when it comes to the high end guys. But with, I think with guards specifically, it's easier to find a starting level guard in free agency. Even if the top guys are getting paid, then it is to find a starting level tackle. Like how many starting level free agent tackles are going to be even available this off season? It's going to be like two.

20:33Mike DeFabo: That's it. Yeah, it's very few guys. And Illuminor.

20:36Robert Mays: Right tackle. Those are my two. Braden Smith's interesting too, right? And then Braden Smith is, there are concerns about age and history. Out there, Elijah Wilkinson in there too.

20:46Mike DeFabo: Started at right tackle for the Falcons.

20:47Robert Mays: I actually did not mind Elijah Wilkinson. He's a top 50 guy for me in my rankings. But there are not that many guys. No. Right? And so the idea of them trying, if there are a bunch of paths you can take here, right? One of them is you sign Tyler Linderbaum to like a big money contract and then you skimp out on the guard. Or do you just sign two guys at mid-level deals at center and guard? That to me feels more likely than them breaking the bank on Linderbaum, even if there's familiarity with Linderbaum.

21:16Mike DeFabo: Right. But that's two guys. So let's say you go sign like Wyatt Teller, for example, and Cade Mays, if you're talking about like mid-level guard contracts. What are you doing at left guard? Because you're either going to re-sign Zion or then you have to find that answer somewhere else.

21:28Robert Mays: I would imagine. I don't know if they have to walk into week one with like three guys that they've invested in free agency. I think two investments plus trying to figure the rest out in the draft. I think that's an acceptable path forward.

21:39Mike DeFabo: Yeah, I think that's fair. I just to me, like when I've sort of gained this out in my head, it's made it a lot easier to figure out the starting offensive line when Zion Johnson is in the picture. That's kind of where I'm at.

21:50Robert Mays: Do you think that they want him?

21:52Mike DeFabo: Yes. OK, yes. the it's going to come down to the market. They love Zion. I mean, you think about what happened on the offensive line this past season, he played every snap before week 18 when they didn't play starters because of they were already had their playoff seating figured out. Like he's like, there was a day where he got a root canal done at like 11 AM and he was on the practice field at 2 PM. Like he, there's a lot of stuff with Zion that I think Jim Harbaugh loves. I think Joe Ortiz loves. And he, he really like put it together. And, and we might not agree with this, But I feel like week 13 after their buy until week 18, he put it together and was like the level of player that people thought he was going to be when he was a first round pick.

22:28Mike DeFabo: I thought it was his best pass protection stretch of his career. He was seeing stunts and blitzes at a level that he was not previously. And he really became like an elite, elite run blocker. Now the Patriots game, he went back to his old self, which is, you know, it gives you some pause, but I thought that stretch showed me that he's going to be worth resigning. I would not go to$19 million a year, but if he, if you can get Zion Johnson back for 15, 16,$17 million a year, I think that's a consideration. Cause if you bring him back, then you can talk about the strategy that you're going with, which is like, okay, try and shop mid market at right guard and center, which is possible based on the names out there.

23:02Mike DeFabo: And maybe you've got this thing figured out.

23:05Robert Mays: There'll be a chunk of money allocated to these year, the offensive line. We will see how that actually gets allocated over the next month here. We know everyone's thinking about the offensive line. Everyone wants to see what the charges are going to do on the offensive line. What am I not thinking about enough? when it comes to the areas of the roster that need addressing, that need bolstering. And this could mean in free agency, but this could also mean in the draft. Like what are the other positions that we should be thinking about with the available capital here for this team over the next two months?

23:31Mike DeFabo: Yeah, I think in tier defensive line, they got tier tart back. And I think tier is a really good player, but he is a disruptor. He likes to get upfield. He likes to take chances. He has to play next to a two gapping solid run defender who is disciplined and will stay in his gaps and control the line of scrimmage and take on double teams that TR TR Tart can be the player that we saw last season. Last season, that guy was the Sean hand the year before that it was Puna Ford. What do they do there? Do they resign to Sean hand who's coming off a really good season? Probably have to pay a little bit more.

24:03Mike DeFabo: Do they try and do the same thing again where they find a low-cost free agent that way outperforms the contract like they did with Puna and Deshaun? I think that's a situation that they have to figure out. I think they need to invest at corner. I might be alone in this, but I like their group of corners. I like Dante Jackson. I like Tarheep Still. I like Cam Hart. But again, when I'm thinking about green defensive coordinator calling plays in the NFL for the first time, I want to give that guy talent. And so could they go with a corner at 22 in the first round and really try and find a legit potential number one outside corner?

24:36Mike DeFabo: That's a spot that I'm looking at as a, as a possibility as well. And then, um, tight end is an interesting group that I would throw out, you know, Rondae Gadsden fifth round rookie last year, had a good year. We'll see what happens with Will Disley. Um, you know, I think they could bring Will Disley back and he could block well in this offense, but again, there's a very specific type of tight end fullback that McDaniel likes in his offense, sort of that move piece that can affect the passing game run block, you know, who do they sort of look for in that role is will thisly a fit there? Do they look for somebody that may be a little bit more athletic?

25:04Mike DeFabo: So those are the other areas of the roster that I would throw out.

25:06Robert Mays: Yeah. The, just the, the heavy personnel considerations in general, because if they want to be a 21 personnel team, Scott Matlock is not the type of fullback that right. Mike McDaniel was going to want. Right. And so, and again, from a multi-tend, a tight end perspective, guessing was nice as a pass catcher last year. He was 235 pounds. He can't really block. They need somebody else to kind of fill out that room. The other spot I would, I'm curious about safety next to Elijah Moulton, because the whole point of being able to use Derwin in the slot is if you have two safeties, you feel comfortable playing.

25:35Robert Mays: Tony Jefferson was that last year. Tony Jefferson is 47 years old.

25:38Mike DeFabo: So I wonder who that 33 for the record.

25:41Robert Mays: So they, I think some addressing that in some way in order to make sure you can keep Derwin where he belongs. I assume that's also part of the plan. Yeah. So RJ Micken six round pick. I was going to ask you Like he did play last year.

25:53Mike DeFabo: You just, you need somebody that you feel okay about in the deep part of the field. Like, can you be the post safety? Like, can you make that important tackle if something bleeds through? Like, do you have the eyes to like play some of these different rotational coverages in the back end? I think RJ Mickens meets that threshold. I think you need a little more depth there. Cause if you are playing Derwin and the nickel, Elijah Molden's battled some injuries. You need another piece that you can rely on there. That solution to me is pretty easy. Cause you could just bring Tony back and keep that group of four together and feel pretty good about it.

26:22Mike DeFabo: But otherwise, you know, they've proven very capable from a personnel standpoint of finding DBs on day three and turning them into starting players. Cam Hart, Tar Heep's still a corner. RJ Mickens played well for them last season. So I think they have to find a fourth safety. To me, though, like if you get down the road and you're still looking for that guy or you don't feel great about the draft class, you know, get Tony back in there and you feel good about it. I joke about the age. He's also a free agent.

26:45Robert Mays: That's the reason.

26:45Mike DeFabo: That's the reason I'm thinking about how they might have to replace interceptions last year.

26:49Robert Mays: He played fine. I mean, if they wanted to do that and that was the answer. I wouldn't be upset about it, but they do need to do something because he is hitting free.

26:55Mike DeFabo: They need a fourth guy for sure.

26:57Robert Mays: It is Monday, February 23rd free agency starts. Like the 14th, March 9th of March, March 9th. My God, it gets earlier every year. It feels like so free agency starts March, March 9th. I cannot wait on March 12th when I'm sitting there talking down charges fans off the ledge because they haven't spent any money. It's going to be a really, really fun experience. Oh, you're going to be doing that.

27:16Mike DeFabo: Well, I'll be doing it. Yeah.

27:18Robert Mays: You're going to, you're going to be sitting there on one of those streams, is just like giving people the therapy that they desperately need.

27:24Mike DeFabo: I had 550 people on my live stream when they signed Mekhi Becton.

27:28Robert Mays: Concurrent viewers. All jokes aside, it is a fun push-pull because you go last year where they're not aggressive at all. They very much follow the, we are the Baltimore Ravens. This is how we're going to spend our money. We're not going to overpay for guys. And for the most part, that's led to hits in free agency. That gets you your puna forwards and your tire tarts. And I think that's probably... Christian Fulton, Dante Jackson. Yeah, it's the right way to approach it. But I think that every once in a while when you have moments like the offense bottoming out, the line bottoming out the way that they did, it pushes you to a level of urgency you wouldn't have had before.

28:01Robert Mays: And so those two things, pulling and pushing in opposite directions, I'll be very curious between those two poles where Hortiz and this front office land this spring specifically.

28:10Mike DeFabo: It's easy to operate that way early in a regime. Yes. You're two years into this thing. You went and got Jim Harbaugh to coach your football team and you have zero playoff wins. ultimately the urgency starts to factor in in terms of how you go about it and we were talking to joe ortiz after the season and he said if you're going to spend in free agency you have to feel good about the player and you have to know the player i'll just leave it at that because that you know joe ortiz was involved in baltimore when they drafted a certain center that might be

28:38Robert Mays: hitting free agency that's the one where it's very easy to make the connections we'll see if those connections are enough to make them the team that's going to chase after silo underbomb So Daniel Popper, always great to chat with you, sir. I hope that the Chargers spent a decent amount of money that first week at free agency so we could potentially have you back on to chat about it. But for now, that's all we got. Enjoy the combine. It's good to see you. Good to see you as well. Thanks for having me. All right. Before we talk to Nikki about the Commanders, let's take our first quick break.

29:08Robert Mays: Joining us now as we keep rolling through our most interesting teams of the offseason, It is our Washington Commanders writer here at The Athletic, Nikki Javala. Nikki, how are you doing?

29:17Daniel Popper: I'm good.

29:18Robert Mays: How are you? Good. It's great to see you. It's great to see everybody. I'm very happy to be here. It's always good to be back in Indianapolis at this time of year. This is my... I'm trying to do the math on it. It's 2026. So this is my 17th combine.

29:35Daniel Popper: Okay. That's...

29:36Robert Mays: Which feels insane. Yes. You're getting up there. The first time I ever came was in 2009. I was in college. Oh, wow. So I came twice while I was in college. Yes. So the fact that I was able to stack up a couple before I even started doing this was.

29:48Daniel Popper: Yeah, that's not fair. I feel like you cheated. Yeah. I think this is 13 for me. Yeah, we're getting old.

29:55Robert Mays: We really are. I was joking with my wife. I've stayed at that JW in Indianapolis more than any other hotel in the world. Yes. Which is insane to think about at this point, but it is very true.

30:06Daniel Popper: High velocity.

30:06Robert Mays: That's right. I'm looking forward to my first one in about five hours here. the commanders are on this list for a bunch of different reasons, but I think it just starts with the amount of turnover that we're going to see, not only with the roster, but with the coaching staff. Right. And so we're talking about two new coordinators and then something you said that I will dig into in a second. But when I was reading a mailbag that you did with your listeners last week, you were talking about, somebody asked you the amount of like surefire locked in starters. You think there are on the roster? You said seven guys, seven players.

30:37Robert Mays: And so that is not necessarily shocking for the average team in the NFL that has$75 million in cap space. That's the amount of turnover you might expect. For a team that was in the NFC championship game two years ago, the fact that we're dealing with two new coordinators and maybe a dozen new starters.

30:55Daniel Popper: Two new first year coordinators. First time coordinators. Yes.

30:57Robert Mays: And maybe a dozen starters. Yeah. It's just a level of turnover that it would have been really, really difficult to imagine this a year ago at this time.

31:06Daniel Popper: Yes. Yes. I don't think they imagined it clearly. Certainly hope not. I think there was a miscalculation at some point. And I mean, they, they had won what seven of nine games at some point. And then they decided to trade for Marshawn Lattimore right before the deadline. I think that's probably a move they would like to have back. Did not pan out the way they had hoped.

31:29Robert Mays: It's probably the worst one, right?

31:30Daniel Popper: Yeah. If you're a stack,

31:31Robert Mays: I mean, cause the deeper one, the price isn't that prohibitive. And so it's like, whatever he was, what he was last year.

31:36Daniel Popper: Yeah. you get some dead money. He was really the only healthy receiver they had last year. So it's fine. And Tunsil Tunsil, I don't mind. You get a heck of a, you know, left tackle. You need, that's going to be costly no matter what.

31:48Robert Mays: The only reason that Tunsil one has drawbacks right now is just because you made it when you were in a very different point as a franchise. And so even if the, when you look at the price and you look at the player, you can square those two things. When you add the third layer of now you don't have a second or fourth round pick in this year's draft. Yes. that's where it gets a little bit more complicated, but yeah, I totally agree with you. Like when you think about what they gave up for him and what they still have, I think that's a move that you might be open to. Again, it's just when you combine it with everything else that has sapped resources from them, that's where it's just like, ah, it doesn't really square with who we are, what we need right now.

32:23Daniel Popper: And it comes in a tough year where yes, they have the number seven pick. I think they would consider moving back, but what team is going to want to move up in a year where there's, it's not a deep quarterback class. there's a ton of edge rushers. Maybe most teams feel like, okay, we can stay pat or try to get one in a ladder round. So they may not have an opportunity to move back if that's something they were looking at.

32:49Robert Mays: Let's just stick with that for right now. So let's say they stay with the seventh overall pick. Obviously, it's going to depend on a bunch of different factor who's available there. But when you think about the positions that most need addressing, and I'm sure you've taken at least a look at what the pool of players looks like in the top 10, what do you think are a couple of the options that might be worth chasing for

33:06Daniel Popper: them at seven address for no doubt. Um, I can see it. Like if Caleb downs is there, might they consider taking a safety? Like he would be sort of a game changer for the back end of the defense. But like, if he's gone, I got to go address her. I think they've, they've put off signing an elite address her for the longest time. I mean, they had it at one point, like four first round picks and the group couldn't play cohesively together. It just didn't work. Um, but then since Adam Peters and Dan Quinn came on, they, they didn't have an elite Ed Drescher and year one didn't have one last year. I think Von Miller's exceptional.

33:42Daniel Popper: I covered him in his prime. I don't think a 36 year old Von Miller could be considered an elite address at this point. Um, though he still led the team in sacks, but they, they got to get better up front. They got to get better on the entire defense, but especially up front and they got to get some, get some elite talent there.

34:00Robert Mays: That makes a lot of sense. It's beyond just the Yvonne Miller thing. Jacob Martin's a free agent. Dietrich Wise is a free agent. So now you're digging into the depth of that position, let alone the fact that they probably need a high on talent there anyway. So let's stick with the defense first, because this is a team that right now, after releasing Marshawn Lattimore, you're looking at like 85, 90 ish million dollars in cap space. So that's the silver lining here, right? Is that even if you spend a lot of draft capital to try to microwave this little window, you You still have a lot of financial flexibility to add to the roster this spring.

34:31Robert Mays: Sort of.

34:31Daniel Popper: They also have 30 free agents because they signed a bunch of guys to one or two year deals and now they're expiring and they did it on purpose to give themselves some flexibility. But now they have a lot of holes to fill and they don't, they don't have the depth right now to really feel the full team to like really, you know, play well. So they're going to have to sign a lot of players. So that can go fairly quick.

34:56Robert Mays: Just to kind of go back one step, when you were talking about those seven guys that you felt like were locked in starters, the only position group that is really like, okay, we're all set here. The offensive line is like well positioned.

35:06Daniel Popper: They need to re-sign their guard, their left guard. But other than that, they're pretty decent there. But that's it.

35:15Robert Mays: Every other position group is kind of completely up in the air right now. So as you're thinking about that huge pool of money and the 10 or so needs that they have, what do you think like a reasonable free agent strategy for this Washington team looks like? That could be positions. It could be specific players. Like what have your initial thoughts on this been?

35:36Daniel Popper: Yeah. So I look at more of Adam Peters history and it's hard to do because he only has two years as the GM, you know, but he's been the assistant, you know, with John Lynch for a while. He came up under, you know, John Elway and Belichick kind of, how did they do things in the draft? And like, I think only a couple of times he's taken a receiver in the first round. I would, I wouldn't be surprised if he did it because there's so much talent in this year's draft. And if you can find a playmaker, I mean, you got to give Jaden Daniel some options here. But I would still be surprised given their needs.

36:11Daniel Popper: You know, would he, would he take one at seven? And I, yeah, the B high, unless it's like a Carnell Tate type, you know, like I would think that's somebody you try to get in the latter rounds of the draft in terms of free agency. I think you're looking at depth guys. Might they try to sign like Jalen Phillips type on the edge and get a veteran safety. You need some veterans on the back end of the defense. I would think that the, the defense tight end, they got to get a pass catching tight end. Might they look there for free agency?

36:42Robert Mays: Isaiah likely is a free agent. And Jalen Phillips actually does make some sense. I think with this team specifically, like they're a team that has a need there. They have the money to spend the other position group, like safety needs addressing linebacker is,

36:55Daniel Popper: I can't see them bringing back Bobby Wagner. Just they got to get younger across the board. I mean, they were, they were old and at times looked old last season.

37:05Robert Mays: So I think them having, let's say five or six new starters via fee, free agency on defense as somebody just like on the outside, looking in at first glance, that seems like a reasonable possibility. Would you say that there's a chance they could have like half the defense is made up of free agent starters from this class?

37:23Daniel Popper: Yes. I think they need a new starting safety. They need another corner. They need at least one linebacker, a couple edge rushers, another defensive tackle, maybe. Yeah, they need a lot.

37:37Robert Mays: Two guys specifically that I want to ask you about. What happens with Duran Payne in your opinion? Good question. He has a$28 million cap at this year. They would save 17 million if they were to move on from him, cut or trade.

37:48Daniel Popper: Yeah. I, I think they keep them because of the number of holes they have to fill. I do wonder if they try to do something else with this deal to try to lower the cap hit this year. That's a tough one. That's going to be a big hit. And then you also got to look at, I mean, Laramie Tunsil has a year left on his deal, but could you do something there to lower his cap hit? You know, just prorate it more. So that's, those are two that I think you're looking at the cap charge and then Terry, you're going to have to eat that salary charges here.

38:21Robert Mays: So speak, uh, with receivers.

38:24Daniel Popper: Yeah.

38:25Robert Mays: What about Brandon? Like that's the one where if I was just trying to play, play matchmaker with a team, a need, because you have on two levels, right? He has the familiarity with Peters from San Francisco. He played with Jaden Daniels at Arizona state. They have money and they have a huge need, not only just a huge need for like, but that specific type of skillset specifically, I can just imagine there being a lot of reasons they would seek that out. Obviously that's a hornet's nest when it comes to like all the things you have to worry about. But that player team match is the, one of the ones that kind of most quickly came to mind for me.

38:59Daniel Popper: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's the one I go back and forth on. Like, does it make sense? Does it not make sense? I mean, and the ways you pointed out, it absolutely makes sense. I mean, you know, Jaden Danielson, Brandon, And I would love that. I mean, they've made that very clear many times. And that's the hope, right?

39:14Robert Mays: Is that like, why could we get more out of him? Why could maybe we rely on him in a way that other teams couldn't? He wants to be there. Like he's been open about the fact that he would want to be there.

39:23Daniel Popper: But can you still rely on him given how extraordinary the circumstances were?

39:28Robert Mays: I mean, I've never seen anybody give up$27 million, but okay.

39:34Daniel Popper: And then the other thing is, is his health, you know, would he be ready? for the start of the season. I mean, he's, that was a significant injury. Yeah. So is that something else that they have to take into consideration? But yeah, they need a receiver help. He's a good one. The quarterback likes him. The GM drafted him. Yeah.

39:54Robert Mays: The last thing I'll ask you, the coaching staff.

39:56Daniel Popper: Yeah.

39:57Robert Mays: The defense completely understand why it was time to move on. This is one of the worst defenses in the NFL last year. They bought him out. Dan Quinn takes back play calling, what, 10 weeks into the year? And so them moving on and going with a guy like Durante Jones, Durante Jones is somebody that was on my radar as like one of those assistants that was probably in line to be a DC. The trying to steal some version of that Minnesota Vikings defense, it was going to happen at some point. Some team was going to see, can we get our own version of this? And so on every single level, them bringing him in to run the defense totally tracks to me.

40:29Robert Mays: The offense is one where it's a little bit more complicated because you have a top five unit in 2024 that drives the season that you had when you go to the NFC championship game. This year was a lot more inconsistent, a lot more up and down, but you can explain a lot of it away because you're starting quarterbacked in play for half the year. So you've written about this. You've talked about this. You've reported on this. But for people who maybe don't have as good a sense of the dynamics at play with Cliff and with Washington, ultimately, why do you think they decided to go in a different direction?

41:00Robert Mays: And why do you think David Blau was the guy that because it's an interesting kind of middle ground. You're bringing back somebody that was on the staff, but I could imagine the offense looking much, much different because of how hyper specific of a coach Cliff Kingsbury is.

41:13Daniel Popper: Right, right. And so a few things first. Like, I feel like 2024, the success they had then sort of masked a lot of their deficiencies. I mean, they had an easier schedule. They were really healthy, you know, very fortunate to be healthy deep into the season. And the offense, I mean, Jaden Daniels was Superman for him on offense. So they were able to get away with a lot more. I mean, it's not like the defense played great that season. No, they didn't. Then you come into 2025, you got a harder schedule. I think their starters missed like 100-something games combined with injuries, including Jaden Daniels.

41:53Daniel Popper: I mean, the receiving core was out for much of the season. Their safety, top safety, was out for much of the season. I mean, literally every position was effective. Zach Ertz, their primary tight end, out. So it affected them a lot. And the defense was essentially Dan Quinn's defense. So when he took over, there wasn't, they had like two games where it sort of incited some change, but it didn't last. I don't think they had the personnel, the talent to run the defense they were running. But as far as Cliff goes, I think they looked at it as we need to find a way to keep Jaden Daniels durable. We need to find a way to help him help us basically to steal the Jeremy McGuire line.

42:37Daniel Popper: And running up tempo more than any other team. I mean, it was extraordinary. Obviously, that's what he does. It's Chip Kelly style, right? It was just not going to work long term, they viewed. So they want to get him under center more. They started to do more under center with Marcus Mariota and the backups late in the season. But they want to do that more. And that's going to be a big focus. I could see Blouse defense looking much more like a Ben Johnson type of defense with more West Coast principles than anything. And I think that's a direction they wanted to go in.

43:11Robert Mays: It's, this brings me back to just like the last kind of larger point that I would make about this team. It kind of feels like a weirdly blank slate for a team that did as much as they did in 2024. Like they're starting over. And so the idea that the defense might look, I mean, schematically it's going to look very different, but personnel wise, like you, you're kind of starting from zero with resources so they can remake this thing however they want to. And that's, they're one of the teams I'm most interested in watching in free agency. because their priorities and how they spend on defense, I think is going to tell us so much about what type of team they want to be.

43:45Robert Mays: Like if they were the Jalen Phillips team, I'd be like, cool, I can understand that. But if they didn't decide to do that and they tried to like spread out the investments along the, along the front and kind of be more like that, the Minnesota team was where they weren't really reliant on a four man pass rush. And so they paid Jonathan Grenard, but they, that team was, it was a more of a, the composition of the group was more important than any one single pass rusher, right? Right. And so, or do they kind of focus their resources on the back end? Because what we saw from that Minnesota team specifically is that the veteran kind of pieces on the back end and the types of players they sought out on in the secondary allowed them to play the way they wanted to play.

44:24Robert Mays: Right. And so how they kind of shape the defense with the resources that they have, to me is one of the more like fascinating considerations of the entire off season. Right.

44:32Daniel Popper: And I don't think every coach does it well. I think every coach says they do it. You know, we're going to we're not going to, you know, try to make our personnel fit our scheme. We're going to make our scheme fit our percent. Well, not not every coach does that, you know, but they're going to have to find a ways with the guys that they have because they do have some talent on that roster, no doubt. But it's interesting. It's also a huge gamble. I mean, this is year three for Dan Quinn and Adam Peters. They had one successful season. I feel like the NFL is becoming, you know, there's urgency is greater than ever.

45:04I mean, I, I feel old in saying that.

45:06Daniel Popper: I remember when coaches got at least two years to like prove themselves, they don't get that anymore.

45:11Robert Mays: They, this team went to the NFC championship game two years ago. If they win six games this year, Dan Quinn's going to be fired. Like it's not, I don't even, there's nothing ambiguous about it. Like, and you said this last week in something that you wrote, it's just like, he's going to be, he's on the hot seat coming into the year. When you fire both of your coordinators, your time, the, the hourglass is turned over for you as a head coach. And so that's where this team is. And I still even understanding and living through the season that we did last year is hard for me to come to terms with because of just how fast it's a bit of whiplash is absolutely there.

45:44Robert Mays: So this will be a team I'm watching very closely because of that pile of money and because of all the needs they have. And so the first week of free agency will be very notable for them. And maybe we will be talking to you again then. Yeah. Neat job. Thank you very much for the time. Great to see you. And we'll talk to you again very soon. Sounds good.

46:01Daniel Popper: Thank you. All right.

46:02Robert Mays: Before we talk to Mike about the Steelers, let's take our second quick break.

46:10Robert Mays: Joining us now to round out our first of three episodes about the most interesting teams of the 2026 offseason. It is our Steelers writer here at The Athletic. Mike DeFabo. How you doing, man? Well, I like the way you described it.

46:22Nicki Jhabvala: Most interesting because the Steelers were very interesting. They are not a boring football team this year at all. Well, let's talk about that.

46:32Robert Mays: So, my first question to you is, and I think I know the answer to this based on the decisions that they made and the route that they chose to go with the head coach. But I think there are other pivot points associated with this roster that the way that they handle them could even push us further in one of those directions. In your mind, as somebody who covers this team, who talks to people around this team, what do the Steelers want to be in 2026?

46:57Nicki Jhabvala: They believe that they are a wide receiver and a couple of shiny pieces and a 43 year old quarterback away from winning their first playoff game in a decade. And I think that the biggest problem with the Steelers is that is their goal right now. It seems it seems that their ultimate goal is what can they do to snap this now near decade drought without a playoff win that contributed significantly to Mike Tomlin stepping away and his 10 year souring at the end. And I think that they're losing track of the larger vision, which is your goal should not be to win a playoff game. Your goal is to win the Super Bowl.

47:34Nicki Jhabvala: And they are so close to like they're always in the conversation, but never in contention. But these nine and seven seasons, nine and eight or ten and seven seasons keep convincing them. They're so close. they're just there they almost were competitive but there's such a difference between a non-losing season and actually winning something when it matters in the playoffs

48:01Robert Mays: this was a team that i think had come to a crossroads when it came to their identity how they wanted to operate who they wanted to be this offseason the mike tomlin era we know what it was it was there were stretches in the early aughts that were spectacularly successful and after that it was remarkably consistent. Like that's what it was. And I think at the end, it got remarkably consistent in a way that no longer served the Steelers. And so them coming to this spring and after my Tomlin steps away, them kind of getting to choose in a, as two roads diverged, they got to pick one. And the one they chose was let's stay as close to what we were before as we possibly could be.

48:45Robert Mays: That to me, it was disappointing. And when I sit there with this team, that is the prevailing kind of feeling that I have is that Mike McCarthy, and we've talked about this in the show multiple different times. Mike McCarthy is not like a bumbling buffoon. Mike McCarthy has won 10 games a lot of times as an NFL head coach. That's really hard to do. But like you just said, the goal shouldn't be to win 10 games. So the idea that we're now trying to essentially have the offensive version of the Mike Tomlin Steelers, I just, it's hard to look at that mindset and that set of choices. And as somebody in my seat, get overly excited about where this team is and what they want to be.

49:25Nicki Jhabvala: And you're not the only one who feels that way. I think a huge portion of the fan base, even when his name circulated was thinking, maybe they were doing this as a favor to a guy, you know, just interviewing him to get his name out there. That was the initial impression from some fans. And when they ultimately ended up hiring him, there was a very negative response from the fan base because this is a fan base that as you mentioned this consistency turned to mediocrity turned to stale and Steelers fans are so desperate for something different I think that they literally would have been willing to tolerate something bad if it meant swinging for the fences and everyone thought because of the way Steelers had done business they're going to go get some kind of a young probably defensive minded coordinator Chris Shula was a name that was very popular and floated in Pittsburgh as that guy.

50:17Nicki Jhabvala: And people would have liked that. I think that they just wanted something new, something fresh. And because this is not 62 years old is not something new in something fresh. I think that that's where fans are very frustrated. And truth be told, like the Steelers, they had their formula. It was always young, defensive minded. They went completely the opposite direction. So you want to say, well, they broke their mold. They did something very different. They did something unstealer-like. In reality, this was very stealer-like because it was in a lot of ways the safest thing they could have done.

50:48Robert Mays: It was very measured in the way that the Steelers have been recently.

50:50Nicki Jhabvala: The most risk-averse decision that they could have made and the least creative. And that, I think, is what frustrates fan base with this hire.

51:03Robert Mays: And we've talked a lot about the McCarthy thing, and we don't need to belabor the point. But I think one of the reasons it's the first question here that leads into the larger discussion about the Steelers this offseason is that choice informs the other choices that are going to be made. Right. And the first one of those is the quarterback. Am I wrong to think that by bringing in Mike McCarthy and like you just said, we think we're this in this away and we're trying to build off of whatever level we set last year. That level included Aaron Rodgers. Right. And so do you think the 2026 version of the Steelers will also include Aaron Rodgers?

51:33Nicki Jhabvala: I think that it will, if you had to bet on a team or an outcome, I think the most likely outcome of the possibilities would be Aaron Rogers coming back to Pittsburgh next year, reuniting with Mike McCarthy. And like, I want to make this point about Mike McCarthy as well, really quickly. They are not bringing him in for Aaron Rogers or to entice Aaron Rogers, but so they can hopefully get out of their current quarterback purgatory. Now they might have to put a veteran bandaid on one more time with Aaron Rogers, but the goal really is he got this job because of his work with quarterbacks. And that's what the Steelers sold themselves on was they're in this situation because Mike Tomlin was unable to identify draft and develop the successor to Ben Roethlisberger.

52:20Nicki Jhabvala: If they bring in a guy that has worked with Rogers far, you know, the list goes on and on, maybe he can help them develop that quarterback, but the circle would bring it full circle. Yes. I think that there's very high likelihood that Aaron Rogers is going to be a

52:36Robert Mays: Pittsburgh sealer one more year. Here's my issue with that though. Who is that quarterback and where are you going to find him? Because, and this might not be the year to do that. And it's unfortunate that for them, this team has 12 picks, right? They have three in the third round. They have two in the fourth round. They have a ton of draft capital this year. This is not the year to be finding a quarterback. So I get that we're bringing Rogers back. Doesn't cut off any pathways to a young quarterback in this draft, but it does cut off potential pathways to a young quarterback. Like if there were no, the opportunity cost of Rogers to me is part of the problem with choosing to go the Aaron Rogers route, because if you bring back Aaron Rogers, you're not going to be the Malik Willis team.

53:13Robert Mays: And that to me, I don't need this team to tear it down. There's talent here. They don't need to tear it down. But the idea of choosing some higher ceiling options at a couple of these really important roles like quarterback, that's what I would have liked to have seen. And because you have the Rogers McCarthy pairing now, that's what you can no longer do. Right. No, I agree with you.

53:34Nicki Jhabvala: The thing is they, they were planning to draft a quarterback. They had stockpiled draft picks. They traded George Pickens. This was absolutely the cause they were trying to make a huge splash. The draft is in Pittsburgh. They land their future franchise quarterback. They've got plenty of draft capital. Get it done. But as you mentioned, that 2026 class has basically fallen apart. Fernando Mendoza is going to go first overall. So really the only question that they could or decision they could make is, do they like Ty Simpson or do they want to potentially take a swing on a Garrett Nussmeyer in like the second or third round, something like that.

54:07Nicki Jhabvala: And in both of those instances, there would be a case to be made that they should sit behind somebody for a year, especially Ty Simpson has only started one year. Whether they do that, you know, do you anticipate them doing that? Like, I actually don't because you don't. Well, I don't think Ty Simpson. I think that they would be turned off by the idea that he had only started one year.

54:28Robert Mays: Not just Ty Simpson specifically, but the idea of drafting a quarterback on day two and just taking a dice roll with that spot and letting him sit behind Rodgers for a year. You assume they do that. That is the plan.

54:39Nicki Jhabvala: Well, I think they could because they already, in a sense, have done that with Will Howard. And that's that's the other thing here is like fans have been clamoring for Will Howard. they want will Howard over Aaron Rogers because I think that they know what they would get with Aaron Rogers and will Howard to them is this box of mystery that he could be spectacular. He could be horrendous and either way they would be totally down with it because if, if he, if he wins four games and is awful and is Kenny pick at 2.0, Hey, now they're in position to draft some quarterback in 2027 for the first time there actually have a top 10 pick for the first time they are in a position Because as you're alluding to, that's the problem with Rogers.

55:19Nicki Jhabvala: And in part of the problem with Mike Tomlin was he was almost a prisoner of his own success or mediocrity. They were never in a position to draft a quarterback because they always somehow rallied these teams that had no business getting to nine or 10 wins to nine or 10 wins, which did nothing but push them out of position to draft the quarterback and get out of their purgatory. And that's the problem with the Steelers right now is just they're in this cycle where there is no quarterback. And they are very much scarred by the Kenny Pickett experience.

55:47Mike DeFabo: I can understand that.

55:49Nicki Jhabvala: The problem was Ben retired. They had no plan. They had nobody there. They needed a quarterback and they drafted Kenny Pickett because he was there and because they needed a quarterback. And that is why they didn't draft Jackson Dart. That's why they didn't take a swing on other quarterbacks. That's why I think that they're not going to go for Ty Simpson is because they are terrified of getting Kenny Pickett because you need a quarterback. You draft a quarterback. now you've set the franchise back three four years trying to develop a guy that there's no developing

56:19Robert Mays: my here this is kind of my like working theory about how i think some of this could potentially go the tj watt part of this is a little bit more complicated because he still has a ton of dead money left on his deal next year he's obviously a beloved player but like he's an aging player with a 42 million dollar cap in each of the next two years but even if you tj watt aside this was the 31st the second oldest team in the league last year they were 31st in snap weighted age After this year, Cam Hayward is a free agent. Most of the eight, I assume they will move on from Jalen Ramsey this offseason.

56:50Robert Mays: They save$20 million if they do it, right? We'll see about him.

56:53Nicki Jhabvala: I know that there are some people who really like him. They might try to move him to safety full time, but they could save a lot of money by moving on.

56:59Robert Mays: In the next two years, I would assume they move on from Jalen Ramsey. The point here is that this team will hit an age reset at some point in each of the next two offseasons. I assume that based on everything that you're saying and then the idea of bringing the Rodgers back, It won't be this offseason, but it will be next year. And so the way I see this playing out, and you can correct me if you think this is totally off base, this is a team that will be mediocre this year. They will win between seven and ten games, depending on how lucky they get in some areas. And we'll be having this exact same conversation next year.

57:29Robert Mays: And they will probably hit the reset button next year because it's the easiest option. But again, it feels like everything they're doing in 2026 is just set up to delay the inevitable reset that will ultimately need to happen in the next two off seasons.

57:47Nicki Jhabvala: Pretty much. Yeah, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head, unfortunately. And I say this just seeing the last 10 years of Steeler football, which has been the same story over and over again. So I'm honestly at the point with the Steelers where until they prove to me otherwise that they're not going to be that team you just described. I'm just going to assume that that is going to be the product they put on the field. And now it's you, you mentioned TJ watt. The only way that I think that this turns a different direction is last year was the fourth consecutive year. They had the fourth or the highest paid defense in the NFL.

58:20Nicki Jhabvala: Now there's going to be some changes. They're one of the going to be one of the highest paid defenses yet again. And really the key is going to be, can Patrick Graham come in and somehow get more out of this defense because we have seen some teams like, you know, I think that, I think you look at, you look at the Denver Broncos and people compare Sean Payton in his age to, and in his second act to a Mike McCarthy in his age, but really it's, it's the defensive coordinator. It's that side of the ball that mostly carry the team. I think that's what you would need from the Steelers is Patrick Graham to come in and somehow maximize this defense that did not play up to its salary cap hit or these guys didn't play

59:04Robert Mays: up to their paychecks last year and i think that could happen i absolutely i like patrick graham i think the patrick graham could do more with more talent whether that's enough considering some of the limitations on offense is a different consideration so here's the last thing i have for you they have 44 million dollars in cap space that currently sits if they move on from jaylen ramsey that could be like 65 million they move on from john smith it could be like 70 ish million that's a decent chunk of change. And so that I'm curious how that mindset and what the, how the 2026 goals inform what the free agent plan might look like, because if this is a team that is on like a multi-year timeline and they think we have a young core of our roster, if we play that way, we don't need to spend a lot on win now guys, or are they in a place where they do still want to win now?

59:51Robert Mays: And those are the types of players they seek out in free agency. I think that's the biggest question I have about the next month.

59:56Nicki Jhabvala: Well, I think that I could see them going after veteran receivers because, and this is probably my biggest problem with if they bring back Aaron Rodgers. I think you could convince yourself reasonably of the available bad options. Aaron Rodgers is the best of the bad options, right? But one of the better ones, right?

1:00:16Robert Mays: The only other guy that, again, I think that this would be, to me, an intriguing Malik Willis landing spot if Aaron Rodgers was not the quarterback. That's the only other one I would say.

1:00:24Nicki Jhabvala: Okay. The problem to me becomes then once you start making subsequent decisions based off of that, and specifically you look at what happened last year, and it was the wide receiver position. Aaron Rodgers likes veteran receivers. He likes guys who are polished route runners, who know how to read a defense, who are going to understand what it takes to prepare for a week. And wide receiver behind quarterback is their biggest glaring need. So last year, what that meant was Roman Wilson in his second season was buried on the depth chart and eventually made inactive in lieu of MVS Marquez Valdez, Scantling and Adam Thielen.

1:01:03Nicki Jhabvala: And that's where I think the problem becomes is when bringing in Aaron Rodgers becomes a detriment to developing young talent into preparing for that next window. And I think that that would be the biggest mistake that they could make is if they convince themselves that they could go on some magical run with Aaron Rodgers. And so they need to go sign some 32, 33 year old wide receiver that makes their quarterback happy, but doesn't do anything for this next window that you're really ultimately trying to win in.

1:01:34Robert Mays: I love that framing because that's exactly how I feel about this team right now. I don't mean for this to be like a shitting on the Steelers situation. The Steelers are in like a really decent spot, in my opinion. The seal is like we just said, they have 12 picks. They have three picks in the third round. They have two picks in the fourth round. So we're looking at what? Let's do the math for me. Seven picks in the first four rounds. It's going to be ridiculous. That's a ton. And they, it's not as if the roster is barren of young talent now, right? The offensive line has really nice and young pieces on it.

1:02:02Robert Mays: They have multiple Alex Heisman is what? 30 now, but he's approaching that. Yeah. So I think this is age 29 or age is this age 29 season. You still have her big on the roster. You still have that young offensive line. And so there is like a core of talent here. They're going to be adding a ton more to it with the draft picks 2027 and 2028 are the years for the Steelers. And so my biggest question is, can you do the right stuff this off season to not rob what 2027 and 2028 should look like? Can you balance those two things at the same time? If they can, I think that there is a very real, that there's real hope on the horizon for this team.

1:02:40Robert Mays: I just wonder what that balancing act ends up looking like.

1:02:43Nicki Jhabvala: So the balancing act is a difficult thing. In Omar Khan last offseason, there was a narrative when they traded for DK Metcalf, and people said, the Steelers are all in. They're all in. And I asked him about that narrative and that notion, and his response was, well, you're looking for sustained success and winning in the future, but also making the most, and we think we can win the Super Bowl this year. And he straddled the line. And the danger in trying to win in two windows is you don't win in either one of them. You fail to win in either one of them. And that's what I wonder, because like you look at their approach around the trade deadline rather than going and getting Rashid Shahid, you know, or somebody like that.

1:03:24Nicki Jhabvala: They did nothing. They signed. They picked up Adam Thielen off the scrap heat and they said, hey, Rogers, text your buddy MVS and see if he wants to still play anymore. Like that's what they did. And so they didn't try to win in that window. They didn't go for it. And I'm not saying they even should have been an all-in team, but then you pivot to this. It's not like they're playing for the future this year. So I feel like you have to be making decisions for one window. And I don't know that they've committed themselves to either one. And that's, that is my biggest fear for this team is they're not going to win in either because they're kind of trying to straddle the fence with both.

1:03:58Nicki Jhabvala: Rogers is a worthwhile character to bring up there.

1:04:01Robert Mays: But I think Jalen Ramsey is another one. Like this is a team. There's a bunch of safeties available for agency and this team has a lot of money and they still have a needed safety even with Jalen Ramsey. So, but do you want 32 year old Jalen Ramsey making$20 million a year? Or would you rather take a dice roll on a younger, potentially cheaper option in free agency? Because you understand having Jalen Ramsey on your roster right now is not in service of what you're ultimately trying to do as a franchise. Like it's hard to talk about how they'll use the money in free agency without understanding what the mindset and the plan is for what they want the season to look like.

1:04:37Nicki Jhabvala: Yeah, I get the sense that there are people who really like Jalen Ramsey. They like his competitive makeup and want to give it one more year and try to move him to safety. But I don't know, because part of me wonders if Omar was playing 40 chess. The Minka Fitzpatrick trade, I think, was as much about getting rid of Minka's contract as he was approaching 30. And at one point, he was able to see into the future and get all those interceptions. He stopped seeing into the future as Father Time caught up with him. And when the splash went away, he wasn't the same player. He was not worth the money that they were paying him.

1:05:13Nicki Jhabvala: And so I think that contract was that trade was as much about let's get rid of Minka because he had a lot, many more years. And I do wonder if they're going to just, I mean, John, I think has to be cut. I think that, uh, they had two of the top 10 highest paid tight ends in Pat Fryermuth and John Smith last year. And Darnell Washington was their best tight end. They designed this tight end centric offense. And then both of those guys, I mean, Johnny went from being a pro bowler to, he had like 200 something receiving yards last year.

1:05:44Mike DeFabo: He was a non-factor.

1:05:46Nicki Jhabvala: um so yeah and they were jalen and johnny were both part of that same trade and so i do really wonder what the future holds for both of those players i wonder what future holds for this team

1:05:55Robert Mays: and just like again what the next two months look like the draft is going to be what it is i wonder if they try to accumulate some more capital if they try to move down once or twice right because they're aiming for that 2027 class like that to me feels like that may happen but they're going to make a ton of picks they're going to inject more youth into the roster how they approach whatever limited free agent capital they have this year, that to me becomes the most important question, because I think they will tell you with what they're seeking out and how they allocate that money, what their expectations for the short term are.

1:06:27Nicki Jhabvala: Yeah. I think it would be wise to spend some money at, um, corner opposite Joey Porter jr. You know, he's, he's entering, um, the fourth and final year of his rookie contract next year. That's typically when they do extension. So some of that money may be eaten up by simply re-signing him same with uh you know keanu benton her big both of them could be in line for extensions this offseason that could be some of the money but i could see them they've had success like joe hayden for example and other guys in his mold of signing these experienced so somebody in their you know their second contract that kind of thing would be a perfect thing for the steelers at cornerback um they also could consider safety wide receivers a glaring need.

1:07:09Nicki Jhabvala: Those are some of the positions I'll probably go for.

1:07:10Robert Mays: At some point in the next two years, it is not going to take much of a nudge to make this one of the youngest, cheapest. And I think in some ways, like highest upside young cores in the league. I just wonder when that nudge is going to happen. And it seems like based on everything that they have done so far, this off season is not going to come in 2026, but I do think it can happen. And that's why, again, I think that there is like somewhere down the road. I do have some optimism on what the roster can be. I just hope they don't spoil that version of it by trying to get the most out of this one.

1:07:41Nicki Jhabvala: Yeah, that's, that's exactly the point. And we'll see what they end up doing.

1:07:46Robert Mays: Mike, always great to chat with you, sir. Great to see you. We're going to have a wonderful time in Indianapolis this week. Thank you guys, everyone for listening. Thank you to Nikki. Thank you to Daniel Popper for joining us today. We're going to have two more episodes of these coming out over the next couple days. days very much looking forward to that for now that's all we got appreciate you guys listening we'll talk to you very soon