The duality of this cycle's coaching hires, and the moves still to come, with Jourdan Rodrigue

0:02Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays sticking with the coaching carousel on the midweek show this week really nothing else we could do so much stuff has happened to the athletic. we played something of a little game where I wanted to look at recent success stories that kind of align with the archetype of that coach and the coach that these teams hired and recent failures. You know, when, what is the best case scenario for this based on some recent examples and what is the worst case? So we did that for all four of the hires that have already happened. And then for the jobs that are open, we also kind of gamified it a little bit.

0:48We went through each of the jobs and talked about what they are, what they are not. And when you consider both of those things, who is the right person to get these jobs at the end of the day? So really enjoyed this conversation with Jordan. Let's get to it right now.

1:07Joining us today, a senior writer at The Athletic, also a member of the NFL Daily podcast team. It's our old friend, Jordan Roderick. Jordan, how are you doing? Hi, Robert. I'm good. I was just in your city. I loved it, but also almost died from wind chill. So no exaggeration, not being dramatic. Now I'm soft and back in LA. So how are you? I spent five years in Los Angeles and I can't tell you how long it took me to get to a place where I was fine being outside in Chicago in the winter. So the fact that you parachuted in for the weekend and couldn't handle it, it says nothing about you. I want you to know that.

1:41Thank you. I really needed to hear that actually. We're spending today scooping up more of the coaching news. We do show every day and I still, there still aren't enough shows to like get in everything that we want to talk about because of how crazy the news cycle has been. So we haven't even talked about things like Kevin Stefanski going to Atlanta. The Jeff Halfley thing happened on Monday, right as we were finishing up our Monday hangover episode. We only talked about that for about 10 minutes. And so the plan right now is we're going to go through all of these hirings that have happened. And I want to do something specific with them.

2:17I want to talk about some recent historical examples or comparisons for how like this sort of archetype that these teams are chasing can work and then cannot work just to kind of provide a, this is the blue sky version. This is the devil's advocate version. What might we see based on what these teams have done and the choices that they've made? So we'll do that for like the three or four hirings that have happened. And then there are also a bunch of jobs that are still open. And this is an idea that you had that I think is fun, just kind of going through these jobs and talking about what they are and what they are not.

2:51And then we'll talk about based on some of the candidates that have interviewed who we think right now, the best fit for what the job really is should be at the end of this process. So that's how we're going to handle today. I love it. You know, I love this stuff. It's such a messy, fun time of year, Robert. And like, like you said, it feels like, first of all, this is unprecedented. I know you guys have covered it at length and very well on your show, but like, this is so unprecedented. And the fact that there have not just been 10 openings, but coordinator movement is happening and all of that.

3:21I mean, it's a wild ride. So let's buckle in. Before we start this exercise, just like an example from like what last year would have been right. And I go to Ben Johnson because why wouldn't I go to Ben Johnson in the moment when they were hiring Ben Johnson and you looked at a person from his background and just the archetype of coach that they were seeking out. I think the different pads there, and obviously one is extremely good. Is he going to be closer to what Sean McVay has been for the Rams? Or is he going to be closer to what an Arthur Smith was for the Falcons, right? Which Arthur Smith, I think, did a fine job in Atlanta.

3:52It wasn't a disaster by any stretch. But obviously those are two different types of success. And so that's what the Ben Johnson one would have been last year. And so that's what we're going to do for these four guys that have taken these jobs. Let's start with John Harbaugh to the Giants. We've talked a little bit about this on a bunch of different shows. I don't think we have to spend as much time on the fact that it actually happened. The bit of news that's worth updating is it seems like right now, if he does not get a head coaching job, that Todd Monken and Anthony Weaver, both of whom are up for some of these jobs, are the favorites in the clubhouse to be the coordinators, which I don't know how you feel about that.

4:23If I were a Giants fan, I think I'd be pretty satisfied with that being the end point with those guys working with John Harbaugh. But that seems to be the latest bit of news that matters when it comes to the Giants opening and Harbaugh getting it. Yeah. And I think Todd Munkin sort of forecasted this also because they had broadcast their loyalty. Some of the reporting that came out before John Harbaugh was fired or before they mutually parted ways, they you know, the loyalty was very clear. Todd Munkin had basically let it be known to other people. If wherever he goes, I'm going. And, you know, we're a package.

5:00We're sort of a package deal here. And some of the loyalty that it was reported that John Harbaugh had toward Todd Munkin during the final days of his tenure there. And I like Anthony Weaver. You know, you know this, Robert, we've talked about this. Like, I think that's a great I think he's a really great hire and he's head coaching material. So if you can get a guy like that on your staff, that's great. Yeah, it's fun because Todd Monken, him and John Harbaugh never worked together before the last couple of years. They're not two guys that are like thick as thieves going back years and years and years.

5:29So I actually appreciate the fact that over like a two-year period, they've developed this like very strong bond apparently. All right, let's do this for the John Harbaugh case for the Giants. Who is like a recent success story in the coaching hiring cycle that you can point to and say, all right, this is the positive example of what John Harbaugh can be for the Giants? It sounds crazy, but I would say Mike Vrabel in this case. Interesting. OK, I don't think that John Harbaugh gives you a schematic edge the way that Mike Vrabel goes. But if this is a best case scenario, the Giants, in my opinion, need infrastructural change at a very basic level of their organization.

6:09And I feel like even though they have, you know, the draft and development process where they've selected guys with good traits. They've selected talent, putting it together in a cohesive way as an actual team, building an ecosystem. You have flashy pieces. John Harbaugh had mentioned in his comments that he really liked some of the scouting staff and some of the infrastructure that the giants have available to them, some of the technology that they have available to them. He obviously wants to build out a more robust analytics department there, but it's pieces, right? It's all pieces of things that are there.

6:44And what Mike Vrabel did in new England was he dug in and he reset infrastructurally from the front office perspective and also from a team building and roster perspective, what it was going to mean moving forward to be a new England Patriot with respect to the past, but obviously a different, very different new identity in the future. And I think that's what John Harbaugh in a best case scenario and what the giants certainly hope this is going to happen. And they can say all they want about who's in charge and who reports to who and every we're fine. Everything's good. We're going to hold the helmet equally in our press conference.

7:16And it's awesome. They can say it all they want. John Harbaugh is going to dig in there and there in my estimation and should dig in there and turn a bunch of interesting pieces within this organization into an actual team. Thinking about the structure and the dynamics involved and like how much is going to be on the head coach's plate where like Mike Vrabel is kind of the figurehead of the Patriots organization, even if Elliot Wolfe is in charge of the personnel department. I think that's a good thing to bring up. Maybe this is just me lacking imagination, but like, I just look at what Jim Harbaugh has done for the Chargers.

7:48Like, because it's, because I kept going back to this idea of like, all right, you're hiring a 60 something year old CEO type coach. Like when and how has this worked in the past? And it's just like, oh, Jim Harbaugh is this from two years ago. And so I and I think because here's the reason that I go back to it beyond the the role in the building. Right. Again, you're a CEO coach. You're not calling offense or defense. You are a culture setter. But also what you're trying to establish. I think the Chargers were really trying to reset what the culture was like in that building. And I think that's exactly what the giant, what the Giants are trying to do.

8:25I think what you're what you're really shooting for here for the Giants is you're trying to establish a certain floor and a certain level of overall competency. within the organization. And I think ideally that's what John Harbaugh gives you in the exact same way that Jim Harbaugh did over the last couple of years in LA. The one thing that I think is important with that sort of hire, and I go back to this over and over and over again, your coordinators in that hire are extremely important. And Jesse Minter has obviously been hugely important in the Chargers going to the playoffs back-to-back years.

8:53The offensive coordinator hire, two years in, they already needed to switch that out because I think the coordinators help establish your ceiling as that type of coach helps establish your floor. And that's why I think you can make an argument that with Monken and Anthony Weaver, like the Giants, even without the quarterback that the Chargers have, are set up for success with this type of model. So that's the one that I would go to. I love it. His brother, I think, but it's perfect because that's exactly, you're exactly right. And it's kind of what I mentioned. The Giants may not admit that they need this, but they need it, similar to how the Chargers needed it when they brought Jim Harbaugh in.

9:29Somebody who is going to take a bunch of pieces of things within an organization and turn it into an identity. And that's what Mike Vrabel had to do, even though the Patriots had the legacy of what, you know, being like dynastically competent, right. Um, before, but it weren't for a couple of years, it's similar. It's these personalities of these CEO head coaches who yes, Vrabel does give you an edge. I think he could call a game still if he wanted to. Um, but it's, it's Jim Harbaugh being a great example. And I think the age thing is a factor here too, because you have to, you have to know you're making the right decision when you do have coaches who are maybe closer to retirement than they were when they entered the league.

10:10Um, and, and to have that energy. And I think that's another thing that's really important and a great comp between all three of these potential, like, Hey, here's the vision board is the energy level because no one is going to accuse Jim Harbaugh of not having the energy as a CEO head coach. No one will accuse Mike Vrabel as a CEO head coach of not having the energy. Certainly no one will do that with John Harbaugh. It takes a specific brand of insanity to dig into an organization in that way at that level where, like I said, I don't think the Giants want to admit it, but infrastructural change is needed in every phase of that building.

10:44And I think he's the person that, you know, obviously they hope can do it similar to how Jim did in Los Angeles. So that's how it can go right. How can it go wrong? What is a recent example of where this couldn't work out if you're the Giants? Yes, I think we have the same one. So So if you don't mind, I'll just sort of stomp all over yours here. But Pete Carroll, obviously. It's very easy. Yeah, because I mean, you're you're hiring a huge name and and someone with charisma and somebody with vision and somebody who has won and somebody who has a clear outline for what he wants. And by the way, somebody who came in and took control immediately, operationally, had a significant say in hiring, had significant say in the roster construction and all of these things.

11:29And it was a fiasco. And so that's where it can go wrong. Making a poor decision and then pivoting from it, I think, is a credit to the Raiders here. It doesn't tarnish to me Pete Carroll's overall legacy at all. But that is the danger when you do hire. I hate this term, but like the alpha CEO coach is you're all in on that person. And if it goes well, then you do get those positive examples. But if it goes the way that it just did in Las Vegas, you get absolute disaster in fighting chaos, nepotism, the whole gamut. And I think with this sort of hire and this sort of approach, you're shooting for a floor.

12:08You can always fall short of that, right? Like the floor can always fall out. And that's the problem. And I think that's a reasonable criticism of a hire like this is that you can make an argument that if you're not going for the play caller, that's going to make sure you're maximizing one side of the ball that you are kind of shooting for the middle. Like John Harbaugh had Lamar Jackson for years and years and years. Like that type of quarterback being paired with the CEO coach is incredibly important for the success of those types of coaches. And so it's possible that you end up with a coaching staff here that simply raises the level of competency but doesn't raise the overall ceiling.

12:45And if the first part doesn't happen, the floor can still fall out of it. And so I think that's a reasonable criticism of a hire like this. But I look at the comparison to Jim Harbaugh. It's like if the Giants made the playoffs each of the next two years, even if that ultimately ended up being their ceiling, does the John Harbaugh era become a success? I think undeniably, yes, based on how the last couple of years of Giants football have gone. Yeah, I agree. And I think it is so much of what we're talking about today and what we'll continue to talk about. and you brought it up is understanding like the potential of the floor, like understanding, first of all, where your floor currently is and how is this the right person who can actually do the things to raise it?

13:28I think you could look at hindsight, which is so easy to do, and look at the Raiders and say, well, you really needed somebody with who gave you a schematic advantage to work around the roster deficiencies. And you needed somebody who maybe wasn't going to take such control over pieces of the roster and the coaching staff. Um, this wasn't the case. Maybe it felt like it because again, that charisma, man, and everyone looks cool in black and silver and all that stuff. And, but at the same time, I think in hindsight, so with coaches like Jim and John Harbaugh, um, having that infrastructural understanding of, okay, this is where you're at as an organization.

14:04And these are the things I can do to, to increase competence, um, becomes really, really important. And, um, you know, Pete Carroll may have outlined a vision that, that they really, really liked it and believed in at the time. But, um, you know, it goes sideways fast. If you don't, if you, as the candidate, as the coach come in without a real understanding of what that competence level is. Next one here. We haven't talked about this. I don't think at all on the show. Cause it happened on the, during the weekend and then we didn't really have time to hit it on Monday. Kevin Stefanski is the new head coach of the Atlanta Falcons.

14:34Uh, yeah, it just, It somehow just kind of slipped through the cracks. We were waiting to do it today. Just some initial thoughts about this and just talking to people about it. This one always, it made sense to me as a pairing. Like as soon as that job came open and knowing, I think, how selective he was going to be with the certain jobs that were available this time around and his willingness to potentially sit out if there wasn't a good job. This is, I think, a good job in a lot of ways. I think it's an organization where there is respect for just the way they operate. Like, I don't think it's seen as like a dysfunctional place based on my understanding, Matt Ryan.

15:10And that can go either way. Right. Like you bring in somebody like that in that sort of role. I think that Matt Ryan was construed as a positive for some coaching candidates heading to Atlanta, not a negative. And you also have small things like them keeping Jeff Ulbricht as the defensive coordinator. And that being, I think, a selling point where that's not, oh, you're going to be married to this guy. was, oh, we already have a guy in place that I think has done a good job and could continue to do a good job. And so I just always felt like this one potentially made sense for both Stefanski and the Falcons.

15:41And so I was not surprised when I saw the news that it actually did get done. Yeah. And you better take the job because otherwise we're making the DC the head coach, right? So it's like, it's kind of one of those things. I like it. I liked the fit. We'll get into obviously the quarterback questions and all of that. Sounds like Matt Ryan really likes Michael Penix as well. Um, I w I was talking to someone recently who had worked in Atlanta for a really long time. Cause I was, uh, voicing my, I guess, sort of, um, cantankerousness over the fact that this job seemed to be, um, like custom built for Matt Ryan.

16:14So like why go through the entire show of all of it? Um, and this person kind of set me a little bit straighter, I think, because it was like, someone needs to be able to tell the owner he's full of crap. And the only person who can do that when the time may arise to do so is Matt Ryan. Right. And so having that gravitas and presence in the building without and we don't know how to go, but potentially without being a little bit too interfering and letting the GM that they eventually bring in do that work. I think having somebody who can be very brutally honest with different facets of that organization could prove to be beneficial.

16:55It definitely got me thinking maybe this could be a good thing for the Falcons. What is the positive case for how the Kevin Stefanski hire could work out in Atlanta based on some historical comparisons? Honestly, this one gave me some trouble, but it's hard. It's hard. You got to dig back a little bit. I have a couple, but there's no good one for one. Yeah. So there's no good one for one. So I kind of looked at some of the ones that were tricky for me to one-to-one. And I thought, who do they want? How do they want this to turn out? How would this team in their best case scenario, who would they want this to be?

17:31And I'm thinking Matt LaFleur, who they had in their building, by the way, at one point, I think they would like this to turn into a Matt LaFleur scenario where they're going to take care of the defensive side organizationally. It's sort of a team effort in bringing in the people for that. But on this point, getting the quarterback correct and maximizing the quarterback. So they think and building a consistency like we can win consistency consistently. And that's what we're thinking about right now. We're not thinking about what happens next, potentially getting, you know, beyond the seven seed, for example.

18:08We're not thinking about getting past that. We need to figure out how to win and how to maximize a quarterback. and I think their best case with Stefanski maybe is a comp with Matt LaFleur in that regard. I like that. So I went a little bit more specific in terms of like the dynamics at play here and like what type of, like what his background has looked like because we almost never see this and the bad case, I'll point this out, we almost never see retread head coaches take a job the very next year. It just doesn't happen very often. If you look back at the last 20 years, there aren't many examples of it, but we have plenty of retread head coaches that take a year off and then I think have a version of success at that next stop.

18:49And when I think about, all right, how could this go well for Atlanta? I look at two retreads that I think had a decent amount of success at that either second or third stop. One is Gary Kubiak in Denver and one is Norv Turner with the Chargers. I love that one. Which is funny because both of those guys heavily influenced who Kevin Stefanski is as a coach. Yes. He either worked for them or worked with them at some point. And so I think that there's a lot of like cool connection points as to why it fits that. Both of them were older when they got these jobs. There's a lot of different things. But I go back to like those two cases is how this could work.

19:26The main difference is both of those guys, when they got to those jobs, Norv Turner had Philip Rivers and Gary Kubiak had Peyton Manning. And so the clarity of quarterback here is very, very different for what the Falcons are dealing with. And I have no idea at this stage how this gets sorted out, whether Kirk starts the season and they play Penix or how tired they are to Penix. I think that's probably going to be an ongoing discussion. But I think that's the main differentiator. But those are the two guys that I landed on where it's like, OK, if it turned out like this, I think the Falcons would probably be pretty happy with the results.

20:03Yeah, I love that, especially with the with the lineage. I have for about 10 years been working on my Norv Turner impression. Oh, Kevin, what are you going to give me a call about that senior assistant job? So Norv, I would, you know, we might see him pop up in the news for, hey, senior consultant to the head coach or or something like this. But yeah. And and this is what I also love about this is we're reinventing the Kubiak system a little bit. Like the kettle of Kubiak's is now populated across the league. And and also the Kevin Stefanski himself getting a retread opportunity like this revitalizes that system in certain ways.

20:48And we've seen it in some of these coaching cycles before. And I love the possibility of that. I love those comps because you kind of we just don't know with the quarterback. but there's a person in there that both of those teams in the examples that you used, maximizing who you do have. Yes, it's, you know, Hall of Fame talent, but maximizing who you do have was the onus in making those decisions back for those organizations at the time. And it certainly is the same here. Yeah, I just think that the level of talent he's going to have independent of the quarterback is just so much better than it's been over the last couple of years.

21:26And I think that's the selling point. And I think the last thing for coaches that were interested in this job, and I think it did play a role in how attractive it was to some people, the division is much more winnable than a lot of the other jobs available. Like you're going to walk in there and there's a chance you can win the division in year one. And I do think that that is appealing to guys as they consider whether to take these gigs. And I wouldn't be surprised if it played a role in Kevin Stefanski winding up with the Falcons. The case against this working out, I have a pretty rough one.

21:55I don't know where you landed on this. OK, it's super mean. It's also Kevin Stefanski. Like the case for this not working out is also Kevin Stefanski with the Cleveland Browns, where to me, he sort of lost his voice slash couldn't figure out what his voice was within the organization. That was a couple year process. Yeah. And and ultimately all of the promise and optimism by bringing in somebody who, like the Falcons think now, gives their offense specifically such a competitive edge schematically and in terms of coaching and play calling and talent. But then for it to backslide so significantly because of ownership interference, because of front office decision making, because of a head coach who just sort of went along or seems optically may not be fair to say, but optically just went along with it, understanding he didn't have that significant of a say in the matter.

22:56that's where when you bring in, you know, Arthur Blank, who I like a lot, you know, for a billionaire, I think he's all right. But like, it's, it's, it's also like, I think that he, he entered, he does met, he doesn't, he's interested, he interferes, he meddles. Maybe Matt Ryan is a stopping point for that. Maybe it ultimate, we don't know. Maybe it ends up that Matt Ryan becomes the meddler. We don't know. Right. But this example of strong personalities at ownership, front office, convicted decision makers in all of those facets, and a head coach brought in to become an advantage for a team that never could quite maximize it as such for a variety of disastrous reasons.

23:37I hope that nothing is ever that stupid again, but at the same time, this Kevin Stefanski is the example of things going wrong in an organization for Kevin Stefanski. And I think part of the reason this job was appealing is that this is not a rebuild. Yeah. Right. And I think that that's having the push and the pull of being competitive and then really understanding that you were tearing it down, but then also trying to be competitive. Like there was just so many competing timelines and motivations because of how misaligned so many of the things were because of how the Watson trade turned out.

24:13So I think getting to a place now where it's like, we're not rebuilding anything. like I don't think you have to win the Super Bowl in year one but like you have enough talent here to win right now and we want to just do everything we can to maximize what this season looks like I think that will be fun for Kevin Stefanski because I think it's been a couple years where that has been since that has been the charge with him as the head coach so I think that's an important distinction the case against for me it just solely because of again like what the timeline we're talking about where you have guy going straight back into being a head coach after having a middling success at the previous job.

24:47And I do not think that this will happen, but I do think that this is the best comparison for how it could go poorly. Is Adam Gase with the Jets? I knew you were going to do it. I think that Kevin Stefanski is better coach than Adam Gase. I think that the Atlanta roster is significantly better than the Jets roster was. I'm just saying that when you look at retread offensive coach going right from one job to the next, that is the last example that we have. And it's just worth mentioning at the very least. I do think that's worth mentioning for a minute there. I thought, and the age difference is maybe what wouldn't, but the worst, worst case scenario, Frank Wright retread going right into it.

25:24Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yes. And then just being like, nope, this is not for me anymore, actually, fellas. But Adam Gase, I think, is the right comp because in terms of age, when rehired, like all of those types of things and, and, and energy level required to, um, you know, bring that edge that everyone thought and, and, and believe that he had that, that he did have as an assistant coach. And, um, yeah, I, I really liked those parallels. I mean, I don't like them, but I like that you said that. Yeah. I, again, I do not, I think I have more faith in it working out, but I do think historically that is at least a comp that you have to mention.

25:57We're going to take our first quick break and then come back with the other two hires that have already happened in this cycle.

26:06All right, Jeff Halfley is the Miami Dolphins new head coach. Let's start with the case for how this could work out for Jeff Halfley and the Dolphins. This was this was a tough one for me again, because I don't think it's hard for me to think of something that's that's one to one. This one was easy for me. Weirdly enough, I like immediately went somewhere. But if I went, but OK, and my brain immediately went somewhere and I was like, is that actually right? Maybe. I don't know. It felt a little off to me still. So you let me know what you think about this, because I'm thinking if this works out in a best case scenario, relative unknown coach who, you know, had worked with a bunch of different teams as an assistant still, you know, kind of became a name in the cycle when it started.

26:52If it's a best case scenario, and I'm thinking like defense as well, I'm thinking they hope the Dolphins hope that this is Mike Tomlin. They hope that this is. Wow. That's shooting high. Okay. I know. I know. Right. And that's where I'm like, it seems like, but I'm thinking like, this is the best, best case scenario that they hope that this is. I don't know that anything really can be that, but in terms of a young guy who has worked with some really talented people, but has been behind the scenes and under the radar for a long time, they hope that they're like ceiling becomes organizational stability.

27:28Right. Right. And I don't know that Jeff Halfley is the guy for that. But I do think that if you're looking at what they're trying to put in their building and historical comps to what they hope that this will be, you could do a lot worse, I think, than shooting for shooting for the optimism of a Mike Tomlin hire. Well, the only the only reason I feel like and I think that's that's an interesting one to throw out there. I just think that the Steelers in 2006 were in a much different place than the Dolphins are in right now. Right. Like the Steelers were competitive. They were 10 and six in Tomlin's first year.

28:00He kind of took a team that was ready to win. The one that I went to is Sean McDermott. Like what Sean McDermott took over in Buffalo. Like this is a rebuild in Miami. Like they're going to end the same way that the bills did where the bills had to kind of dig themselves out of that dead money hole based on what the previous roster had looked like. The Dolphins are about to have to do that with the two a deal. And so bringing in a young defensive minded head coach who I think the entire point is, all right, we're going to be putting this thing back together. We need guys that play hard. We need to establish like a certain way that things go around here.

28:35And I know that people are going to look at McDermott and say, well, he had Josh Allen. He didn't have Josh Allen in year one. And like year one, when they kind of really showed that they had the ability to change the direction of things here. I think that if you're the Dolphins, being the 2017 Bills is probably the best case scenario for the 2026 Dolphins. And so that one to me was like, and there was a weird, so McDermott with, when he was in Carolina over his entire tenure, they finished 12th in EPA per play on defense. So they were good, but they weren't like the best defense in the league.

29:09Jeff Halfley, two years combined, 12th in EPA per play on defense for the Packers. And so I was like, you know what? I like that one. I think that one actually does make some sense. Yeah, I like that a lot. I like that way more than mine. I love that we're thinking about this in a way in the ways that the organizations are to like, what's our best case scenario? Like if we're shooting for the moon and then what's more likely based on where we're at right now? Like, I love that because like, first of all, you know, we're recording this after a press conference that I'm sure will be much discussed on this show and many others.

29:43It sure will be. And I got to say, like, good for Sean McDermott, honestly. Like, yes, it was time, I'm sure. I think it was time to move on and to figure out, like, what you were going to do next. But, like, good for him, honestly, because maybe he becomes the next successful retread coach somewhere. Maybe he takes some time off. But but this is I like that comp because. Cultural reset in a lot of ways, it's almost like they overcorrected. And when they hired Brian Flores, who I know we both think the world of, but there was some bumps when he was in Miami. And then they overcorrected almost and got like the cool guy, the young offensive guy that like everybody was pals with.

30:32That doesn't work out either. So now it's sort of like you're looking for the middle. You're looking for a guy who understands organizational stability, even though he's very, very new in the league. And you're looking for a guy who has done a lot of different things within the infrastructure of a team like Sean McDermott did, like, you know, like like in the highest possible positive scenario, like like a Tomlin did. You're looking for somebody who can come in and apply those lessons and those teachings to other elements of your organization. the case against jeff halfley in miami how could this not work out based on some recent examples no quarterback quarterback take the quarterback out brandon staley i the brand staley and maddie refluce for the two that i had there's a there's a lot of them there's a lot of like defensive head coaches that just don't work out and so this one was one you could pick five guys and you make a pretty easy comparison.

31:26Yeah. And I think, um, I think about like he, Jeff Halfley has the, the tree bump, right. Um, obviously Matt LaFleur might be proud. Like he gave someone the bump, you know, it wasn't just Sean or Kyle. And, um, it was like the hot name on, on the cycle, right. Even in a kind of weird and underwhelming in some ways cycle. Um, definitely the hot name there. The guy who people are touting as giving a clear schematic advantage speaks, you know, very clearly about a vision for how he would see the organization has a clear vision and a scheme that he's going to implement specifically into that defense.

32:09Um, I think the, the parallels are, are quite there again, leaving out the quarterback, um, of a, of a possible worst case scenario, because again, it's, it's an organization that's in constantly in flux and has been for some time as the Chargers were when they hired Brandon. Yeah, I think it's the best comparison. Like if you really think about it, I think for everything that you laid out, it is the best comparison. Last one here, Robert Sala to the Titans. The only news kind of to scoop up here, still figure out who the offensive coordinator is going to be. There was some speculation that it was going to be Mike McDaniel.

32:38Obviously that did not happen. And it seems like right now, I know Diana reported today that Brian Dable looks like he's leaning toward either trying to be the Bills head coach or taking the Titans OC job. So if they land with Brian Dable, I think that's probably something that you can be happy about if you're a Titans fan, like based on all the available options. But Robert Sala to the Titans, the case for how this can work out with Robert Sala and the Titans. My answer is actually one you've already said. Well, and I love that. So I'm going to pivot from because I know what you're going to say.

33:10And I love that. And hold that thought because I'll go quick. One that you've already said. My answer for Robert Sala was Sean McDermott. If they hope that this goes and introduces competence and culture and personality, all those types of things. We've already talked about the McDermott positivity gradient. So I want to hear, I want to hear yours. It's Mike Vrabel. I mean, it's like, this is you, you talk about, and it's even like the one year off retread, like in every way. And it is, you just mentioned it, where we have these organizations that ping pong between these archetypes of coaches and they do it purposefully.

33:43And so the Titans firing Mike Vrabel, hiring Brian Callahan, who are very different personality wise, the Brian Callahan thing not working out and them just being the Wolverine meme where they're looking at a picture of Mike Vrabel while laying in bed and saying, OK, what is the closest thing we can do in this cycle to just get Mike Vrabel again? And the answer was probably hiring Robert Sala. Like it's just, it's so transparent and shameless, but not in a way that I'm judging. Like I completely understand why they did this. It's just the deep irony and sadness that comes along with that entire sequence of events.

34:19If you are a Titans fan or somebody who's having to make the decision that's those building in that building, it's just a tough one. I'm judging a little. Because that's very diplomatic of you to not be doing so. but I am because, um, you had him, the one that got away, you had him girl. What are you doing? It's just what I just, I can't, it's so good. It's too good. So what's the case against what, what is the example of how this might not work out if you're the Titans? Oh, honestly, I think, I mean, you could look at a lot of Titans history here. Um, it's funny because you say how this could work if it's the Titans and the best example, is Mike Vrabel, the way that this might not work is all the factors that led to Mike Vrabel no longer being there.

35:09This is not a one-to-one comp, but in terms of ownership and team infrastructure and power struggles seeming to happen by the month and all of these different variables that made it impossible for him to continue being the head coach there and then go off to greener pastures, that is unfortunately a great comp for how this could really go terribly wrong. But you look at any of these other defensive coaches that we said that we talked about Eberflus being one of them. Now, Eberflus, I would say going into year his final year, because that was the year where he did have the quarterback, but had no idea what to do with the quarterback.

35:47So if we're talking Eberflus, I would specifically comp that last year of his head coaching tenure in Chicago because he got the quarterback, the number one overall pick in Kayla Williams. They had no idea what to do with him. And infrastructurally, as a staff, you have to have that plan very much in place. Reports are saying that Robert Sala does have a plan that they buy into, that they believe in as an ownership group. So that's good. But that would be a very extrapolated piece of the Iberflus experience that I think directly applies to how this could go wrong in Tennessee. And by the way, the Vrabel thing applies to not just the type of coach they're seeking out because of what he was in Tennessee.

36:25the Vrabel model in New England is exactly what they're trying to do in Tennessee you drafted a quarterback in the top three you bring in this defensive-minded head coach but you still maximize that version of the roster it's literally what they're trying to accomplish with Cam Ward and so I think that would make sense I went back to again like defensive retreads and this isn't a perfect one-to-one but like Rex Ryan like Rex Ryan was a really good defensive coach with the Jets those defenses were consistently excellent they obviously had a lot more team success than the Robert Sologets did, but he gets another chance with the bills.

36:57It doesn't really work out. And so I feel like there's some parallels there, even though if it's not, if it's not a perfect one for one, but yeah, I, they're just hoping that he's Mike Rabel. And I think everything you said about the organizational dysfunction is right. Because in this cycle specifically, I think you, when you were looking at the different opportunities, like the Titans and the, and the Falcons, I think were probably tiered in a similar place for a lot of people looking at these jobs, but the strengths and weaknesses to both of them were about as different as they could be with the Falcons.

37:25You didn't have a clear path to a quarterback that you felt good about with the Titans. You did. But in Atlanta, I think you feel a little bit better. And I think Borgonzie is somebody that's well-respected. And I think that I don't think he would scare anybody off these jobs. But when you look at the dysfunction from the ownership level consistently in Tennessee over and over and over again, that's something I think raises some alarm bells. And so even with a cam word, a job like the Falcons job may be a little bit more attractive because of some of the organizational stability. Like there's no perfect formula to these things.

37:55Like it's all like a, it's a cosmic gumbo of like weird shit and figuring out which of these jobs is good and bad. But in Tennessee specifically, I think exactly what you said is the biggest thing that would scare people off. Let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat through the jobs that are still open.

38:14All right, so this was your idea. You wanted to talk about what these jobs are. and no, but I, here's what I want to ask. Here's why I'm asking this. You want to talk about what these jobs are and what they are not. And as somebody who has done the content thing for a very long time, I usually know that when you have an idea like that, it's because one of the jobs made you think about it that way. So what was the job? Like, what was the reason that you wanted to do this framing? Which, which team? It's super mean. So it's the Cardinals because I'm sitting you're thinking like, is anyone thinking about the Cardinals right now?

38:51Like it's, it's, it's very true. All of these manipulations are happening where teams are using other teams for leverage on each other. And they're not even trying to do that with the Cardinals. I'm like, what? It's like the meme of the group, the group of people sort of in doodle form, standing in the middle of the room and then the guy standing in the corner and he's thinking they don't know. And what he's thinking is they don't know. I'm still in the mix for a job. I still have a head coaching vacancy. Like, hello. So yes, I was thinking about the Cardinals and what specifically what they are not.

39:33And that is a clear and present danger to anyone in terms of the competition for some of these coaching jobs. Yeah. I, I answered it a little bit differently, but I think that's, that to me is what it is. What it is, is a job that aren't, not many people are excited about. Like that's what the Cardinals job is. It's a roster that has holes. You talk about ownership questions. We we've, we've touched on this a couple of different times over the last couple of weeks. And I feel comfortable saying, talking about it because multiple coaches that have been offered the jobs the last two times that I've had vacancies.

40:06I've just heard that they weren't excited about it. People remove their name from, uh, from consideration, or they wouldn't even interview because of just some of the fears about who's in charge of that organization. And then the last part, you don't have any clear path to a quarterback either. So at least in Tennessee, you have Cam Ward. Here, you don't even have that. And so there just aren't that many positive qualities to the job. And so for me, what is it? It's a job that a lot of people aren't really excited to get or are chasing that hard right now. Yeah, I like that. one of the things that they were, that people had talked about being one of the positives with Jonathan Gannon was that he genuinely wanted the job and they were having trouble, you know, finding that.

40:54And so his enthusiasm, you know, it does make you wonder, I know the record wasn't there and the defense fell off a cliff and all of that, but it does make you wonder. It's like you had someone in your building who really wanted to be there, who really wanted that job, who wanted to make it right, who wanted to work with ownership. And we'll see if they can find that again. For me, what it isn't, I don't think it's like a barren roster talent-wise. Right. I think there is something to be sold there. Like, I think there are some pieces that you can build around. The defensive injuries at the end of the season are f***ing brutal.

41:26Like Nolan and Garrett Williams getting hurt in the way that they did. And now the timelines for those guys, that's as bad as it can possibly get on top of all the injuries you dealt with last year. But I think there are like six to eight guys on both sides of the ball combined. We're just like, okay, we can build with this. And so I don't think this is hopeless. So as you look at, so for each of these, we're going to do what is it? What isn't it? And then who should get it based on those considerations? So in your mind, who should get the Cardinals job? Who do I hate? No, I'm just kidding. It's like I said, I was thinking about this late last night.

42:01It was super mean. Um, I like, I like, uh, out of nowhere type of person for this job. Um, I, I like, uh, either an offensive minded guy or a CEO type of coach. Um, I, it's crazy, but I like, uh, Davis Webb. I know he's going to be in the mix for, for this bill's job where it sounds like he is at least. I like somebody who you go in and there are no expectations that you win immediately, But the most important thing is, is that you look for the quarterback, a Nate Sheilhouse, for example. You look for the quarterback, you try to identify the quarterback and that figuring out that piece. To me, you mentioned it with this roster.

42:47So much falls into place upon simply figuring out that piece. Matching quarterback to system, I think, is the wrong way to go. They tried that with Cliff. We saw some highs. We saw a lot of lows in that regard. I think coming in, getting a guy just who knows the position, who knows quarterback with no expectations that you're going to be competitive from the jump because you are still developing yourself as a coach. If I'm looking at this, the defensive version of this, I think Anthony Campanelli has. That's my answer. He has the personality. He has sort of the win the room. He has the community would love him like this.

43:25This would be maximizing the defensive side of the roster. I can't believe my answer. I just see it. I just like based on what they were in Jacksonville last year, even some of the pieces they have defensively, like I just I can see it. And obviously the offense becomes the question. It's going to be the case with every defensive minded coach, especially when, like you said, you want to create a hospitable environment for whoever the quarterback is, as that person comes along in the next couple of years. but just based on like energy, like where the Jags were, like they hired him in Jacksonville because they wanted somebody that was a little younger, that was hungry and that I think could kind of get the ear of what was still like a very young team.

44:03And he did that. And I think schematically he just did so much good stuff. And so that's one where I'm like, you know what? Like I see that one. Like I could absolutely see Anthony Campanile being the right choice for the Cardinals in this moment. Yeah, I could see it. He's got the community would love him. You know, I feel like get him out doing some charity events, get him to like some of those Italian restaurants and in Phoenix, you know, if you've never heard Anthony Campanile talk, I strongly suggest you go seek out an interview with Anthony Campanile because you'll learn a lot. All right.

44:34Let's hit the next one here and kind of draft off of what this morning has been like. I love this. I love this. Like we're we're doing we're building this on the fly and I love it. Thank you for indulging me here. This is all right. This is fun. This is a great way to do it rather than just like, here's the news. Let's talk about it. Okay. The Buffalo Bills. Oh God. What is the Buffalo Bills job? Oh my God. Okay. It's twofold. My answer for what it is and what it is not is the same. Just, you know, efficiency. It is not as good of a job as it looked at the surface when, before Terry Pagula got up on the podium or the lectern and started talking today about the reasons why he moved on from Sean McDermott and the infrastructure in place.

45:23Josh Allen makes this look so gorgeous. Like he makes this look like the dream, right? This is the one where we all joked like, John Harbaugh, are you sure that contract is signed? Right? Because this job just came open at the 11th hour. That's the one that inspired all those comments. But this, I don't think, is as good of a job as it looks like on paper. So it is, and it is not the same thing to me. Not as shiny as it looks. I landed in the exact same spot. What is it? It's a chance to coach an MVP quarterback and one of the best players of his generation. That does not happen very often. What is it?

45:59It's not perfect. I was so surprised when I read that Jeff Howe story this morning and ranking the openings based on him talking to people around the league and the bills were resounding number one. Like I was just surprised by that even before this press conference happens. And then you see the press conference happen. And I think you're just reminded that sometimes these organizations, like they find stability for reasons that have nothing to do with ownership or the people in charge. And, you know, I think there was a lot of that discussion with what happened with the Colts, you know, like what happened with the Colts with Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck and like how much stability you find because of quarterbacks like that.

46:37And so to watch that happen this morning, compare how much confidence you have in the Bills organization after that hour ends to how much confidence you have in the Ravens organization after Steve Bishotti's press conference ends. Both strange in their own right, but also like strange with function, right? Like strange with clarity, like strange with personality, not strange with what the hell is this? and it's night and day to me because these two jobs, I think on paper, look very similar, especially with the quarterbacks. They're not at all, in my opinion. The Ravens are a model of stability for 20 years.

47:21They've had the same structure and the same people in charge and the same processes and the same general level of success over multiple coaches, multiple quarterbacks, multiple general managers. I think it's easy to forget. And I think it's part, I really wanted to spend some time I'm talking about it on Monday to give Sean McDermott credit. It's easy to forget what the bills were before Sean McDermott got there. And I think that he deserves some credit and Josh Allen deserves some credit for making sure that's the case. And Brandon Bean does as well. But to watch what it looked like up there between those two guys and to like throw your coaching staff under the bus.

47:55And I'm sure that, listen, I don't think Brandon Bean is absolved of any sort of blame here for what he might have said behind closed doors about the Keon Coleman thing. But the moment that Terry Pagula cuts him off there and does that in public, you're just cutting his knees out from under him. Like it's it's just a crazy thing to do in that setting as the owner of an NFL team. I can't even believe it happened. Stop helping, bro. Just sit there. Just sit there and be the rich guy for like an hour. Can you do that? Can you just sit there and be a freaking billionaire? Like, oh, my God. Yeah, it's crazy.

48:31It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. And it did like I like that you mentioned that about Brandon Bean because, no, he's not absolved in this. And the roster building has been extremely suspicious over the last couple of seasons, especially, even though I think he also deserves credit for helping with Sean to get this team into the level of respectability that it is. Certainly not absolved. But when you see. behind closed doors dynamics out in public in front of your face. It is it is shocking. Like I like to your point, I felt like we were watching, you know, like SNL or something like it.

49:11I hope SNL parodies it. In fact, like it was it was wild to me. Who should get the bills job? Brian Davel. Because because because it's not going to last. It's an overhang GM. It's a trigger happy owner. the next coach has to at least get to the next round of the playoffs, if not become a Super Bowl, bona fide Super Bowl contender or make an appearance in the Super Bowl, probably in the next two years, because you've now made your bed and set the expectations so high by moving on from Sean McDermott that the very least you could do is go get the guy that everyone's screaming at you about to make the quarterback happy or whatever the case may be behind the scenes, who works well with Brandon Bean, who clearly has a lot of say in the matter.

49:56And it's not going to work out. I mean, I don't want to sound doom and gloom or morbid, but this is the situation that has been foisted upon the organization when Terry Pagula made a vibes-based decision to move on from stability instead of addressing maybe deeper problem. You can keep continuity and still address real problems within an organization. That's what the Colts are doing right now. It doesn't mean that those guys are going to be safe long term, but they're keeping continuity and having really honest questions and conversations about where the problems are. You can do that and keep stability for an organization.

50:34Now they've reset the timeline. They've truncated everything and put everyone in a pressure cooker, because if you don't do better than what you just did in in in a season and two seasons, everybody's gone. And so that's where it's like Brian Dable will get a shot at this, I think, and should get a shot at this. And let's see what happens. He's the one who knows the organization and knows exactly what he's getting into. I don't think that line of thinking is wrong. It just scares me. I just don't like based on how it went in New York and just based on some of the things on offense they had to untangle and like go away from that he wanted to do and how it benefited them.

51:10Like I just think about the roadblocks those offenses ran into at the end of the Day Bowl era, even with Josh Allen and just like how much they remade themselves over the last couple of years. But I don't think you're wrong in the sense that like starting over with someone that's like a new coach or somebody who is going to need a little bit of runway. You almost can't do that. And I think and I think that speaks to why it might have been a mistake to fire Sean McDermott is like because you put yourself in this situation and do it without firing the GM. Right. It's like it's they've painted themselves into a corner where I feel like you limit the amount of candidates you can really consider for a job like this.

51:44And I don't think that's ever the sort of corner you want to be painted into. But I think it seems to be where the bills are. All right. The Baltimore Ravens. Who do you want to hire for it? Oh, I don't know. I think you made a really good point that you almost can't go with an unproven because you're giving this guy no runway to develop. If you go with an unproven, this is one where I was just like, I don't know. It's too early. Like I, I just, I think day ball makes sense in some ways, but also I don't know if that's what I would want to do. This is one where there have been a couple in this cycle where I'm like, I just don't know.

52:14And the, and the bills right now are just one where like, I don't know what the right answer is. You know, I'm going to sound very condescending saying this and forgive me to the audience for that, but NFL owners, just a, just a piece of advice. If you don't, if you're not convicted beyond you're marrying your wife or husband that that you have the next person who is definitively going to lead you into the next era of your team smoothly. Don't make the abrupt decision. Don't do it. I don't care who's crying in front of you. Just don't do it. The idea that what happened that day is the reason that he did it is just like and admitting that in public is just is crazy.

52:53All right. The Baltimore Ravens. What is the Ravens job? The best job in the NFL. The best opening we've seen in in many, many, many, many, many, many moons in the NFL. it is what it is what nobody knew the Rams job would be that's what the Ravens job is yeah I the line about the bills it's a chance to coach an MVP quarterback and one of the best players of his generation in a stable and consistent organizational environment it's it's it's all it's it's everything you could want it's everything good about the bills job plus everything good about the building like it's and I'm curious for you what what isn't it to you because I didn't have an answer to this.

53:33I, maybe I just am not looking under enough rocks. I feel like it is exactly what you said. I think it is not for everyone because I think there are incredibly and rightfully so it's the most competitive sport in the world. It's the biggest stage. There are rightfully, I think, hubristic people who think they're going to be right for this job, who are going to throw everything they've got at trying to get this job. I think you have to know So very specifically, whoever that coach is that's coming in, I hope it's a young candidate that they develop with the organization who can give them an edge, especially offensively with Lamar early on to get them over the hump.

54:12But to understand that this is a long term operation here and this is a long term stay for the next head coach. I think you have to understand what you're not in a better in a maybe a more holistic and fundamental way, because to go into that organization. is to, you're going to have a say in things, but to go into that organization, the way that it's set up right now, as any coach, I don't care how experienced you are, is to completely let go of any other organizational experience you previously had. You have to let go and just be a sponge and become of the organization because that is how they've collaborated in the past.

54:48So you have to, it's not for everyone because I think there's, there's going to be two, there's a couple people maybe with too much ego to rightfully take that job. Who should get it? I think Nate Sheilhouse should get that job. Wow. I think that's, or, or like an unproven, another unproven, you know, Grant Udinski is very, very unproven, but like, that's the category of people that I think should get that job. Grant's been in the league for like three more years than Nate's been in the league. But Nate's been coaching. He played, you know, he gets the quarterback. That's the thing. It is. I think that, and it's not just one person or another person or whoever.

55:23It's to me, it's like this is the job. This is the job. Everyone thinks it says it's Pittsburgh, whatever. I think there's there's valid points to that. This is the job to find to correctly identify the next wunderkind offensive person to correctly do it. They might incorrectly do it. Who knows? We might be incorrectly doing it. Who knows? But this is the this is the platform. This is the runway. This is the moment right now to to do that. So I'm looking forward to that. I hope it is one of those types of unproven offensive guys. I get that. I get the appeal of that. I just kept coming back to Jesse and mentor for this job.

56:01And maybe it's just because it was the connection to the organization. I just, I said this about the bills job. And I think you can kind of say this about the Ravens job too. You can't completely ignore who the offensive coach is, but you have more leeway because of who the quarterback is. And so I think that hiring a defensive coach, then get the most on that side of the ball consistently and making sure you have an offensive coordinator that clears the bar that gives you enough the same way that Todd Monken did. I think that sort of model works in a situation where you have an MVP caliber quarterback.

56:30And so I, again, there was just one where I could see him doing the job. I could see him getting the job. I could see their defense being really good right away because he got the job. So that's one I've just kept coming back to, but she houses a fascinating option. And we will see how that unravel on how that kind of unfolds here over the next couple weeks ago. So sorry. So, so sorry. Let's do these next couple very quickly because I want to talk about McDaniel before we get out of here. Okay. The Steelers job, what is it and what isn't it? The second best job opening in football right now, what isn't it?

57:02Clarity at quarterback and also understanding organizational dynamics. Who's going to really be making the decision on the quarterback? We know Mike Tomlin had a significant say in most of the control over that roster. How is that balance going to work out moving forward? I think this would not be a bad fit for, again, an up and coming coach. I like the idea of Chris Shula here. How cool would it be if a Rooney hired a Shula? It's just there's some there's some poetry to it as well. I like the idea of an unproven coach offensively here, too. This is another one of those jobs less shiny than the Ravens job, but still very, very shiny, especially for a coach who they are going to invest in for the long term.

57:47It's a job that reflects stability, job security, history. What isn't it? It's not a turnkey job. Yes. There's remodeling that needs to happen in that building. And nothing crazy, but I think the roster will turn over in the next couple years. It will get young, and you still need a quarterback. And like you said, I'm so curious what Omar Khan is without Mike Tomlin. And that's not to say that he was hamstringed by him or the other way around. I'm just curious if the organization operates differently with a different sort of mindset from your head coach and different expectations. And I do think there's a possibility that it will.

58:23And I think a difference in how they operate could ultimately benefit them. So you said Chris Shula, who do you think should get this dealer's job? I do think this would be a good job for Chris Shula. I think that to me, it does set the runway for a Tomlin-esque sort of journey. Right. I mentioned it at the top of this, a coach who has coached every single position on the defensive side. Also really underrated about Mike Tomlin at the time, a coach with a vast coaching network already himself because of who he worked in a building with. there's very similar parallels there because Chris Shula may not be an offensive guy, but he knows plenty of them because he's been Sean McVay's bestie for so many years.

59:09So this is to me, it just, it makes a lot of sense to me. I kept coming back to Brian Flores. I just, I would just love to see him there. I would love to see what he could do there. And again, you hope that because he now has, you know, has touched that, that tree a little bit. Does he have somebody that he might have in mind to come with him to do that job? Like it, that's, that's one I just kept coming back to. And I think I'll keep coming back to it. Let's, let's skip the Browns and the Raiders. Well, plenty of time to talk about those jobs as they get filled. And again, this is solely for time.

59:40This is not because I don't think those are worthwhile conversations. I think they are worthwhile conversations, but I wanted to talk to you about McDaniel just before you got out of here. You wrote about it yesterday. Like it, I, this is incredible for the content. Like for the, it could not be better for the content. like whatever argument you want a point for like the idea that well justin herbert has never had the right offensive coaches and that's why justin herbert can't succeed which i don't think is true but i think that there are some people who are going to point that out well now he has mike mcdaniel well mike mcdaniel why couldn't he get over the hump in miami well it was tua like it was the problem well now he has justin herbert so just like the amount of arguments this will fulfill and just the entire connection with the whole to a herbert thing on the internet that's happened over the last two or three years.

1:00:25Like for the content, this is incredible. But I also think for the chargers, this is really fun. Walk me through your feelings about Mike McDaniel being the offensive coordinator in Los Angeles. This was a move for the posters, you know, and the chargers are great at posting. No. So for me, there's some really cool poetry about who Mike McDaniel like really is. And I know you know this well, Robert too. Um, and, and the stuff that he's really made of, um, the substance behind all the quips and quirks and, and viral videos and all of those things. Um, there's something really cool to me about football's quintessential tough guy in Jim Harbaugh, um, identifying those traits in, in Mike McDaniel.

1:01:08And, and yes, 100 % the top of this trade identification process is probably, can he maximize my quarterback? Can we get a little bit more of these like Shanahan principles and some of the new stuff that Mike McDaniel's running into my building? Can I apply this to my offensive line, my tight ends group, my run game? Very excited to see that, by the way. And certainly can we maximize the potential of the quarterback? And that's obviously number one for that organization. But number two for me is this is a person who I think his best coaching is still ahead of him in Mike McDaniel. And I'm really looking forward to this journey for him and him showing, I think, the broader public and certainly NFL circles who, no matter what he does, will sort of scoff and sneer at him because he talks a certain way, looks a certain way, has a certain stature, thinks a certain way, is very, very confident in himself, despite all those things that they think he should not be because of.

1:02:07It is someone who's going to show, I think, an opportunity to show with this like historically badass coach in Jim Harbaugh, what substance is actually there behind all of those things. And so I'm very excited about that. I'm so glad you said that. And I think that the perfect coaches in the NFL, you have to be confident to be a coach in the NFL. You have to have confidence in yourself because I think you have to present that confidence to players. But at the same time, I think one of the things it's always shined through to me about Mike and the way that he approaches the job is that it's always in service of the players.

1:02:44And if you are confident, but the job is always in service of the players and getting them to play as well as possible, and it's about you taking a backseat in that way, that's a good blend. And that's what he has always had. And so I'm with you in that I think his best days as a coach are ahead of him. I think it's so telling he took this job over the others. Like going to play with this quarterback and coach with this quarterback as a springboard to the next job makes total sense to me. The schematics of it are fascinating. Like, what does a Mike McDaniel offense with Justin Herbert look like?

1:03:12Because it's going to look a lot different than what a Mike McDaniel offense with Tua looked like. Just in terms of like where they, what areas of the field they can access. It's just so, so different. And so I can't wait for it. And there's an irony because Staley wanted one of the McVay guys at the beginning and he struck out on them. And then now they finally get that system. And Shane Day, who is their quarterbacks coach, coached with Mike in San Francisco. And so I think it will be smoother in some ways than it might seem. And I cannot wait to see what the plan ultimately looks like with these two guys together.

1:03:48And if it flames out, then there are going to be a lot of haters on the Internet who are celebrating. But I think it could be extremely fun. Yeah, I think it's going to be a blend of some of the new funky stuff he did. less of the ballsmanship and the handoffs and those types of things, but more of the funky stuff, the motions obviously are going to be there. The formations pre-snap and the different gap changes, but also like with people that combine for the size of like a small planet and to do that, to bring like that Kyle Shanahan suffocation, monster ball to some of the speed and ability of the quarterback.

1:04:30Very, very special potential here. I'm very excited. Now, we don't know how it's going to go, but I'm an optimist and I tend to think it'll go well, Robert. We got a couple more things I want to hit, but I can do that on my own. I'm going to let you go because you have a lot of things to do today and you have a hard out. So you get out of here. Sincerely appreciate the time. You got a million things going on. Please tell people where they can check out the work that you are doing at all times. Yes, find me at theathletic.com. Find me on NFL daily with the great Greg Rosenthal and find me all over the place, probably bundled up because I am soft and I hate the cold.

1:05:04So are you going to the Super Bowl? I will be there. I'm excited. Yeah, I'll see you there. Yeah, I will see you there. I'll be there all week. Looking forward to it. All right. Thanks for having me, Robert. Bye. All right. I'm going to keep rolling solo here, which is an uncomfortable place for me to be. But there are a couple more things I wanted to hit. And Jordan had to get out of here. the other OC hire that I wanted to talk about just because we haven't had a chance to address it anywhere else is Drew Petsing going to the Lions and I know that there have been some people who are skeptical of this and the job that Petsing did when he was with the Cardinals and I completely understand that I think this makes a lot of sense based on who the Lions want to be offensively and who Petsing has been and has wanted to be on offense they want to be a heavy personnel under center, run play action, throw the ball over the middle of the field team.

1:05:53And I think he is equipped to do that. That's what he wants to do. That's the offense he wants to build. And so I think that there have been ups and downs with that group. They lost Clayton Adams, the run game struggled because of that, but you already have Hank Fraley in Detroit to kind of help that be a blend of, you know, those two guys kind of building the run game together in the same way that he could with Clayton Adams in Arizona. So I understand that there are people who are a little bit worried about this or a little bit skeptical of this. I do think that it makes sense if you're the lions.

1:06:24And I think that there is absolutely a chance with the amount of talent that team has on offense, pets, pets, and could look a lot smarter in Detroit than he ended up looking in Arizona. And let, let's just do the Raiders and the Browns with that exercise that we were doing before, because we might as well. So let's run through both of those before we get out of here. The Browns, what is the Browns job? I've talked about this a little bit. It's a tough job. There is not going to be a ton of talent on that team this year. We know that they are still deeply in a rebuild. They are still tens of millions of dollars over the cap.

1:06:54That is something they're going to be digging out of over the next year, next two years. And you don't have a reasonable path to a quarterback this year in a draft where there just aren't a lot of them. It seems like it's going to be some combination of Shadour and a moderately priced veteran that they could bring in. I don't think that's attractive to anybody. At the same time, What isn't this job? I don't think it's some coaching death sentence either. When I look at this and I've made this comparison before, it reminds me a little bit of where the Texans were in like 21, 22, oddly enough, considering the Deshaun Watson connection.

1:07:27You look at the amount of draft capital that Houston team had after the Watson trade. This is a Browns team that has two first round picks, is going to be making a lot of picks and did last year. And so you're trying to build like a cache of young talent in the exact same way those Texans teams were. The 2022 Texans were very, very bad in the same way that I anticipate the 2026 Browns being very, very bad. But in 2027, you potentially set yourself up to go get a quarterback and maybe turn this thing around quicker than people might expect. And so I think that is the best case scenario is that you look at yourself where the Texans were and it can feel like just an absolute quagmire based on how the last couple of seasons have gone.

1:08:08But at the end of the day, you are a couple hits early in the draft, which the Browns are going to have more bites at the apple this year and a functional young quarterback away from being a competitive team pretty quickly. I still think the Browns have pieces on defense and they're going to have some financial flexibility in 27 to kind of help remake the areas of that roster, notably the offensive line that have the furthest to go in terms of who should get this job. This is another one where I'm like, the options are so different. Like Todd Munkin and Jim Schwartz could not be more different than Grant Udinski and Nate Sheilhaus.

1:08:41And so if I'm a young coach, there's part of me that thinks, oh man, like if this is my only chance, do I really want to tie it to an opportunity where you know you don't really have a shot in year one based on where things are? Or is this your best chance to get one of these jobs? And if you can weather that first year, do you put yourself in a spot by 2027 in year two where this can actually be a pretty decent landing spot? And so if they landed on one of the young guys, like if Grant Udinski got this job, I think it would kind of seem a little bit crazy. But I also think this is an organization that is willing to take that sort of swing.

1:09:18They think about things a little bit differently. And I think that's gotten them in trouble at times in terms of how they thought about player acquisition and certain moves. But I don't think Andrew Barry is afraid to do something a little bit surprising and kind of shoot and swing for the fence when it comes to this. Like, can you find the next guy who can be that young offensive centric, just ceiling razor on that side of the ball consistently for when you find that quarterback. And so that is going to be a fun thing to watch and whether they do end up landing on one of those really young candidates.

1:09:49And with the Raiders, what is it? It's a blank slate with an opportunity to take a quarterback with the number one pick and reset the entire franchise. And I think that is appealing. Like this is a team, I think in 2027, they have$200 million in cap space. They just don't have many guys that weren't a part of last year's draft that you're tying yourself to for the longterm. And so you're really starting over if you were the Raiders coach and that can be a good thing, but it could also be a bad thing because what isn't this job? It's a place where we've seen that success is not easy. They've consistently stumbled in so many different ways over the years.

1:10:21You think about the Brady factor. You're paired with a GM coming off a three and 14 season who's probably already on somewhat shaky ground. So there, I think there are some benefits because you are starting over here. I think there are some drawbacks based on the Raiders history and just tying yourself to a group that's already struggled out of the gate. The person that I can see here, like who deserves this job? Who should get this job? It's very early. He may not even want to coach. We've mentioned him a couple of times on this show. Somebody like Sean McDermott, I think could make sense here.

1:10:50somebody that has overseen a rebuild that has been at this stage of an organization before that is somebody I'd absolutely consider if I were the Raiders because we've seen what he can do with the early stages of a team that really just kind of needs to change the narrative and the direction around them all right that was deeply uncomfortable appreciate you guys sticking around with me through that we will be back tomorrow with the championship weekend preview deep dives on both of those games. And, you know, some of this other stuff comes in, whether it's the Eagles offensive coordinator, the Bucks offensive coordinator, obviously there are updates around those things, but we're just going to wait until those hires are made before we start really digging into them rather than just wildly speculating about what all the different options can be.

1:11:35And so we will come back to that at some point in the next week or so. Don't worry on that front. For now, though, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

1:11:54We'll see you next time.