The early training camp storylines that actually matter

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1:40Derrik Klassen: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I am Dave Hellman, and as training camp rolls along, we figure it is time for another check-in. A lot of news flying around, a lot of injury updates, a lot of position battles. Depth charts got released. And oh, by the way, the first batch of preseason games is finally upon us. It's a lot to get to. And Derek Klassen and I decided we're going to help you sift through it all. Not everything you hear this time of year is concrete, is definitely going to age well as we get closer to the season. But some of it is very, very important. So the goal of this show was to look around the league at different training camp headlines, decide what matters, maybe what doesn't matter.

2:22Derrik Klassen: get into the nuts and bolts of all of it. Really fun show. Derek Klassen. Let's get into it.

2:32Derrik Klassen: All right, Derek, I definitely don't want to call it a lull because training camp is all encompassing all summer long. But I think we've reached the point of the training camp calendar where teams have been going against themselves for long enough. You're starting to see the joint practices, it's definitely starting to feel a little bit more like noise. And that's why I'm glad we're finally coming up on the first week of the preseason where, yeah, it's not everything, but at least it is a more concrete version of summer football. Like at least we can see something real instead of trying to decipher training camp cell phone clips, you know?

3:11Dave Helman: Well, I was actually talking to Beller pre-show that like the four or five days from Hall of Fame game until the rest of preseason starting is like the most limbo we get in the entire NFL period because technically football starts but I think we all know the Hall of Fame game is like not really worth watching back even relative to a lot of other preseason games and then you have this four or five day period where 30 other teams still haven't played or done anything meaningful yet.

3:38Derrik Klassen: I think it's a challenging point of the schedule for everybody, right? Like again, the teams are probably sick of practicing each other. They're probably getting to the point where they're ready for a break in the routine. And it's hard for fans and media to decipher what matters. Like what is real? Should I actually be excited about these highlight reel catches that I'm seeing on my social media feeds? Should I actually be worried about injuries and other developments coming out of camp? Is, Is this guy really jumping into the stratosphere and ready to take the next step? Should I be panicking that somebody's not running with the ones often enough?

4:16Derrik Klassen: So that's what we're going to do here. We're going to try to parse through as many of the big storylines coming out of training camp as possible and decide, does this matter? Should I actually care about this or is it all noise as we get ready for the start of the season? Because, you know, as well as I do, it won't even take until like week two or week three. Like by the time the rosters get cut down, we're going to look back and be like, man, I really spent a lot of time worrying about nothing.

4:43Dave Helman: There's going to be a lot of it. Everything from like the first roster cut down days through like week seven is just a progression of like, wow, that thing I was doing in August just really didn't matter at all. And then by the time you get to middle of NFL season, like the actual stuff coalesces and you can forget about all of that. But the first like six weeks of every year, it's just a lot of man. I spent a lot of airtime on the Vikings wide receiver for whatever I was thinking about at the time.

5:10Derrik Klassen: And I never, ever get tired of it. But all right. So we put together a nice little rundown of what we think are storylines that matter, things that are really jumping out across the league. And let's just go through and talk them over. And we've hit on this a couple of times during the preseason. And I was kind of content to let it lie because there's no new information. But I do think we should start this off with Matthew Stafford in light of the fact that we have at least a little bit of an update. The insiders on Wednesday morning started talking like when you give it a diagnosis, when you give it a real term, I think it's worth talking about.

5:51Derrik Klassen: And they're calling it an aggravated disc in Matthew Stafford's back, which is understandably why he hasn't been practicing. we've said several times on this show that we don't think it's a big cause for concern does hearing that a 37 year old quarterback is dealing with back issues change your opinion of

6:09Dave Helman: that at all um I mean there is kind of something to giving it a name like we all knew that he had back and shoulder issues and I mean I would say like most parts of Matthew Stafford's body at this point are probably aggravated um but the fact that they have thrown like an actual name on it and I saw that he was getting like an epidural and stuff to handle all of that. I think a month ago I was pretty OK with being like, ah, he's Matthew Stafford, man. He's a soldier. He'll go out there and it'll be fine. And I think after hearing a little bit of this and really just a lot of the other ways that they've talked about the Matthew Stafford situation, like I want to say like three weeks ago, Sean McVay was talking.

6:45Dave Helman: He's like, oh, yeah, that's he's day to day. And then it came out very quickly after that. They were like, actually, I misspoke. He's week to week. And it's like just stuff like that adding up over the course of the offseason. I am getting a little bit worried that, you know, it's not going to be one of those things where I think Matthew Stafford is just by week six, one big thing is going to go wrong and he's going to miss the year. But I do just worry a lot of these things are adding up to the point where it's like instead of 90 percent Stafford, we're getting like 75 percent Stafford, which at that point, I don't know if that's probably not good enough for the Rams to be the team that they want to be.

7:18Derrik Klassen: I go back and forth with stuff like this because I subscribe to the bubble wrap theory of training camp where, especially if you are a proven dude, I'm really just trying to keep you out of harm's way. So I really don't care that much if a 37 year old Super Bowl champion quarterback with whatever career numbers you could ever possibly want. I really don't care if he's not getting a ton of practice time. But at the same time, these things don't go away, especially take it for me as somebody who's the same age as Matthew Stafford. Back issues are really, really hard to get rid of, especially if you're being expected to play football every seven days for the next, you know, at least four, if not five or six months.

8:03Derrik Klassen: I'm not worried about Matthew Stafford being available for week one. I am worried about Matthew Stafford holding up over the stretch of 20 weeks. And I think that's we've talked about it. That's the worry with the L.A. Rams is this is just a very uncomfy reminder that it's very fragile when you're asking guys like Matthew Stafford to hold up for that long.

8:26Dave Helman: I also the last thing I want to say, because I've given the Bengals and Joe Burrow a lot of shit for this over the years, the Bengals and Joe Burrow have been bad in September. like the entire time that he's been there. And that's for a number of reasons. He's been hurt some of those times. Obviously, the first year he was a rookie, all that stuff. That's also kind of been true of the Rams and Matthew Stafford for a lot of the time that he's been there, where they're a team that is pretty slow to start in a lot of years. And even last year, that was certainly the case where they looked like a pretty middling team until the last eight or so weeks of the season where they went on this run.

8:59Dave Helman: I want to say in like 2022 or three, they kind of did something that was very similar. So I think if he's going to come into the season bubble wrapped, which again, he's a proven guy, I get it. And the whole point is that, you know, we'll we'll we'll do whatever we got to do for 10 weeks. And by the end, we'll we'll get into the playoffs and then we'll be the team that we want. I just wonder if if he's really not going to have as nearly as much practice time as he needs. Are you even slower in September than before? Like, I just I don't know, man.

9:25Derrik Klassen: Our wonderful colleague Jordan Rodrigue was out at the Cowboys Rams joint practice that just took place. And she made the fantastic point. Look, a lot of teams are out on playing their starters in the preseason. The Rams are pretty famous for it at this point. They haven't really done it in years with their marquee players. But joint practice where you can go against another NFL team in a more controlled environment and quarterbacks can't get hit and all that type of stuff. Most teams, including the Rams, view that as very, very important. Like they care a lot more about the two days that they practice with somebody else.

10:02Derrik Klassen: than the preseason game for Matthew Stafford to miss that. I think that means something, right? Like, I don't give a damn what he does on the on the preseason game days. But to miss a joint practice, it does suggest, like I said, I'm not worried about his availability for week one, but it does suggest a heightened amount of concern about where this guy is and how careful they need to be with him.

10:24Dave Helman: I think I couldn't agree more. And the last thing I want to say, I've seen some people doing the oh, the backups, Jimmy Garoppolo. and Jimmy Garoppolo is fine. Jimmy Garoppolo might be fine, but for the Rams to be who they want to be, they kind of need Matthew Stafford to be playing at like an A level. And Jimmy at this stage in his career, like you might get two or three decent games out of him, but if he has to play for any extended period of time, I don't know about the offense anymore.

10:48Derrik Klassen: The vision of the Rams as a Super Bowl caliber team depends on a quarterback of good, healthy Matthew Stafford's caliber. I think so. And you agree with me. so no I'm not buying that like sure they could be viable with Jimmy Garoppolo and they could win some games and be and be pesty but that's not what we're looking for when we get excited about the Rams having Devontae Adams in the fold and all that stuff like if we're taking them

11:13Dave Helman: seriously who by the way got Jimmy benched in Las Vegas valid and also said like nobody was

11:21Derrik Klassen: happy in Las Vegas like Devontae Adams has made very sure to let everyone know how much he regrets the the Las Vegas stint at least the on-field portion of it I'm sure he doesn't regret the contract anyway it's it's something to monitor for me like I said I think I'm not worried about him playing against Houston on we in week one I am worried about having to keep an eye on the injury report every single week all the way through the season and that's that's the reality of having a 37 year old quarterback it's nothing new we've seen plenty of guys have to deal with stuff like this before but i think this more than anything just underscores that this is the world the rams are living in probably for however much longer matthew stafford wants to play whether it's just this year or the next two years whatever i think it's why it's finally time that they started collecting first round picks okay i keep trying to move on but that is a phenomenal point that i've seen people make already they have two picks now so it it's a nice ace up your sleeve to be like, hey, if this goes south and the bottom drops out and we're whatever, at least we are in prime position to make use of two first round picks.

12:32Derrik Klassen: I bet you the Rams feel even better about that little bit of business they did with the Falcons in the spring. I bet they feel better about it now than they did then. Oh, definitely. All right. The next storyline I want to get to, it's near to me in proximity. And I know Robert's not here to be our resident Bears fan who really has lived with this team for his entire life. But I am a new resident to the Chicagoland area, Derek, and you've spent plenty of time here yourself over the last year or so. I am fascinated by what I am seeing coming out of Bears training camp over the last three weeks.

13:13Derrik Klassen: And it's really, I don't really care about the reports that the offense is sloppy or whether Caleb Williams is establishing rapport. I am interested by the way that Ben Johnson is running this training camp, and it feels very much like a guy who's trying to send a message and set a tone. So I actually I went to a Cubs game on Tuesday, and it was the day of the practice where the Bears had a live period, like live tackling. All NFL teams do this. they'll have a practice where they do goal line and they let the guys really hit and it's physical and it's fun and it gets the juices flowing. But to hear it from everybody around Chicago, while I was out socializing on Tuesday, it just turned into like a free for all.

14:04Derrik Klassen: Like guys were after practice saying like, yeah, it was, it was supposed to be one period, but it just kind of turned into the entire practice. And from the sounds of it, it just, it just feels like Ben Johnson is trying to capture that whole Mike Ditka thing that this entire city is obsessed with. And I'm so curious to see how it goes. I don't really have a firm opinion of it, but clearly there is a clear intent here for Ben Johnson and his first summer with the Bears.

14:33Dave Helman: Yeah. You mean the guy who was like cooking up fake fumble trick plays is not a guy who's just going to like let stuff kind of spiral out of control a little bit once they start to you mean that guy um I think it's funny though in general that he's a uh that he would kind of let a practice go like that because I do when I think of Ben Johnson it's like incredibly detail oriented which to me that is the most important part of what he's bringing um to Chicago because the biggest complaint that I had with Caleb Williams last year obviously you can you know some of the deep ball stuff was really bad um some of the sack taking was really bad but to me the biggest issue when you watch Caleb Williams was he was really, really trying to play like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, like hang in the pocket, go one, two, three, all this stuff.

15:16Dave Helman: But I don't think the offensive coaching was good enough to really get him to hone in on how the offense was supposed to be played. The whole thing with Ben Johnson, Ben Johnson, is that what he was doing with Jared Goff was like, hey, man, what are the plays that you like? How do we get you to feel comfortable with all of them? And let's just try to craft the entire offense around that. And so I think they can bring any element of that to Chicago. I think obviously it's going to be overwhelming at first, because I think Ben Johnson does bring a pretty full array of plays and concepts and stuff.

15:44Dave Helman: But I just feel like that is exactly what they needed to set the tone being different than it was a year ago.

15:50Derrik Klassen: And the feedback all seems very positive. You know, like players want to be coached hard, right? Like early on in camp, Ben Johnson pulled the starting offense out off the field for lining up wrong and then lose the burden. I mean, it's the type of stuff that you probably want from your coach after what Bears players have been through the last two years. Luther Burden got kicked out of a drill when he returned from injury. It feels very authoritarian. And it is. I think it can be really good, right? Like I said, I think there wasn't enough experience on the Bears coaching staff before. You saw the way things spiraled out of control last year.

16:29Derrik Klassen: and if you're a Bears player that lived through that you're probably like yes this is exactly what we want but my only concern is how does that bear out when the rubber meets the road I mean if the Bears don't start three and oh and I bet you they won't because it's a tough schedule to open the season how do how do they adjust to that because I think you gotta you gotta have faith in in this process leading to results and Ben Johnson has great credentials. I doubt anybody is questioning him right now, but this has to lead somewhere in the long run. And I do I do wonder about that on a long enough timeline.

17:07Dave Helman: I wonder about that a little bit, because I do think if he's going to be so, you know, nitty gritty and really getting on guys for a lot of the small details and you're two and four at a certain point, it doesn't look like you're turning around. I can see how that would start to create on people. But I don't know. At the end of the day, I really do think these these guys are professionals and again they do want to be the best at their job and they do want to be pushed and so I think even if it's definitely not as lax in an environment as it as it was a year ago I really do think that them getting pushed is going to be something ultimately even if it's not working out early is going to work out in the end I mean it's it's what happened with Detroit and I think that's actually part of why to me it's pretty important that they brought in a lot of like veteran older players along the interior specifically around Caleb Williams obviously, because they have a lot of other young pieces in the offense, right?

17:55Dave Helman: You just drafted two new skill players. You have Caleb Williams, Roma Dunze. So for them to bring in a bunch of veterans who have played on teams that maybe weren't so good and have maybe had to like work into into year one, into year two, being better teams down the line. To me, I think that's a pretty important factor in like very smart team building.

18:11Derrik Klassen: I think that's a valid point, but there is a key difference. And you're right. The Dan Campbell Lions had some miserable times before things got going, Like they had a forgettable first season. It was really, really bad in 2022 before they kicked into gear. I think the key difference there is you send an expectation when you trade away Stafford. And remember, it sounds silly now, but Jared Goff was basically like a salary dump at that time. It was like, OK, Jared Goff can be our quarterback and we'll have we'll we'll be able to get a new guy in a couple of years. And we'll thank Jared Goff for his time and move on.

18:48Derrik Klassen: And that's obviously not what happened. But the Bears were clearly in this long rebuild and the Bears can say whatever they want. And that's probably how they should view it. But that's not what the roster says. You know, that's not what they have compiled on offense. That's not the expectation for a guy like Caleb Williams. So I think just inherently there will be less patience for this team than a team like the Lions, where when Dan Campbell got there, it was like, all right, man, have fun biting those kneecaps. We'll check in with you in a couple of years. Like that's not that's just not the world the Bears are going to live in a because of their roster and Ben Johnson.

19:27Derrik Klassen: But also, by the way, the other thing that makes this fascinating as somebody who's new to the city, I guess I always knew this, but this place is football crazy, dude. Like even with all of the disappointments of the last few years and the pain of the Justin Fields era and everything that comes before that, you can feel an electricity in the air here. Like people want this so badly and they're not even jaded, right? Like you might expect a fan base that's gone through this to be a little beaten down and kind of expect the worst. That is not the vibe that I get being here. Like people are amped.

20:06Derrik Klassen: They expect this to work. And so I think for a lot of reasons it could get gross if if things don't click as quickly as they're supposed to the the expectations is a good point like we the the bears are not expected to make the playoffs

20:22Dave Helman: this year but I think it's like on the table for a lot of people right like if the defense really hits its stride if Caleb Williams and and the offense can be like the 13th best offense or something like that then they could make the playoffs with the Lions it was like they might have been last in playoff odds that year like I don't remember what it was at the time but that first Dan Campbell year I'm sure they were like bottom three so that's that's a good point it

20:43Derrik Klassen: reminds me of like Bo Schembechler the old Michigan teams back in the day where he's like those who stay will be champions or even like like Denzel Washington and remember the Titans that's the vibe that I get from what Ben Johnson's trying to do he's like I'm gonna I'm gonna break you down and rally you and turn you into this great football team I hope it I hope it goes that well because it would be a phenomenal story but it does make me very curious watching bears training camp from afar to see how all of this ages once once we get out of the preseason all right we got plenty more storylines to get to we'll do that on the other side of this break hey everyone michael beller for behind the scenes at the athletic football show here i run tafts and

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24:45Derrik Klassen: all right Derek I remember talking with you about this before training camp even kicked off so now that we've got a couple weeks of sample size it feels only right that we check in on the Saints quarterback situation which very much feels like a storyline worth paying attention to for

25:00Dave Helman: better or for worse the Rattler is winning that job man I said it like half jokingly a couple of weeks ago and I've probably said it a number of times on this podcast actually but like he here's this I don't know why I'm defending a quarterback like this my take is basically that I think he could be like quarterback 26 and like he could be like a not completely embarrassing player which doesn't sound very exciting but I think kind of goes to the point of like I feel like this entire Saints season was setting up for a lot of this as a holding period anyway we're going to see if these young offensive linemen are going to be something for us and we'll just kind and move on and kind of reset in 2026, which to me, you could have done that with Spencer Rattler.

25:42Dave Helman: Like Rattler is going to make aggressive throws down the field. He's going to hang in the pocket and, you know, see how long these offensive linemen can really hold up. And I think he has enough to him that you could get like functional ish offense out of him. So that to me is like, I don't understand why they drafted Tyler Shuck. And so now they're at a point where they drafted Tyler Shuck to this older 26 year old prospect. He's going to come in, he's going to be our immediate starter and we're going to be able to have functional offense when to me you kind of already had that guy on the roster and now shuck might not even be the week one starter it's just a bizarre it's a funny little quarterback room i'll give it that there's

26:19Derrik Klassen: a couple things i want to hit here for starters i think this storyline really ramped up earlier in this week i think it was tuesday when spencer rattler got the reps with the ones for a second consecutive day and everybody freaked out like, oh, look, we got our first leader in the clubhouse. It looks like it's going to be Spencer Rattler. I think it's fair to point out guys still move around during the course of practice. I, you know, I heard from my good buddy, Luke Johnson, that Rattler took reps with the threes that very same day. So like it's none of these things are purely set in stone, especially in an unsettled room like the Saints.

26:56But the fact that Spencer

26:59Derrik Klassen: Rattler could win the starting job. And from the sounds of it, not that this is high, high praise, but he's been the better quarterback. Like Tyler Shook has struggled the way that you would probably expect a rookie to a rookie drafted in the second round to struggle ups and downs, highs and lows. I get that. But if Rattler has any potential to win this job, then we thought this is what we talked about before camp. I just don't even really understand why you did it in the first place. And another thing that I've seen over the course of the last week is, hey, draft a quarterback where you can. It doesn't matter.

27:36Derrik Klassen: All kinds of good quarterbacks have come from all rounds of the draft. Jalen Hurts was a second round pick. Dak Prescott was a fourth round pick. Russell Wilson going way back was a third round pick. I get that, but I do think you have to recognize where you are as a franchise in the Saints case and say, if this season doesn't go well, we will be picking in the first round in 2026 with an eye on a quarterback, potentially very high. And it just rubs me the wrong way. If a guy drafted 40th overall doesn't win the starting job as a rookie and then is very clearly buried on the depth chart behind a guy that you have to play one year later.

28:20Derrik Klassen: That's been my concern from the beginning. and it looks like it's bearing out again it's early the job is not settled but that is my

28:28Dave Helman: concern with the Saints quarterback room well and even the other quarterback you mentioned that's this is why I think he's different than a lot of those guys Russell Wilson was Seattle they'd paid Matt Flynn to very obviously be the starter and then Russell Wilson just surprised and that was kind of a nice thing for them Jalen Hurts was not the starter when they drafted him they had Carson Wentz um who would even you know in the downturn of I think his career a little bit um but they did have a guy who I think was pretty firmly entrenched as a starter and then Dak Prescott was like a fourth round and we have Tony Romo we hope we hope he's healthy with like all of the that stuff kind of just fell apart like they had clear guys they wanted to be the starting quarterback with the Saints they were drafting Tyler Shuck to be that starting quarterback almost closer in the same vein of like when the you know when the Bengals drafted like Andy Dalton or maybe when the Raiders had drafted Derek Carr these top of the second round guys that are like we don't have another option we're gonna hope that he can step in and be the starter and those guys did that like they stepped in and they were perfectly fine rookie starting quarterbacks to me it's it's a little bit concerning that shuck is not like pretty clearly and pretty early supplanted himself above guys like spencer rattler when like again i like spencer rattler but like realistically he's quarterback 27 he's like if kyler murray had the um athleticism and lack of grace of a gardner Minshew, which is like not the greatest mix of players.

29:48Derrik Klassen: And that's, that's part of it too, is where Shuck was drafted. It was never a guarantee that he was going to be the definitively better quarterback. So it's just, it's just a matter of resource allocation. The guy like some, a sampling of the guys taken right after Tyler Shuck. I mean, you got Mason Taylor with the Jets now. Donovan Eziraku is in Dallas. JT Tua Maloa, the edge rusher out of Ohio State, he's in Indianapolis. Will Johnson, the guy that some people thought was CB1 that fell to Arizona because of injury concern. The list goes on and on and on. Obviously, we don't know if any of those guys are going to be studs just yet either.

30:32Derrik Klassen: I'm not trying to get carried away with Will Johnson highlight reels coming out of Arizona, although there are quite a few, by the way. But I think I would feel better with one of those guys developing on my roster and just figuring out quarterback the next year. Spencer Rattler and Jake Hayner could be competing for this job the same way. And I would feel better about the long term plan. Like, it's not that I'm afraid of the Saints rebooting. And that's I've seen that coming out of Saints camp, too, where people are like, everybody says they want to reset until you try to do it. And now the sky is falling because the quarterbacks don't look good.

31:09Derrik Klassen: I'm like, no, that is not my problem. My problem is that there, this just doesn't line up. The strategy here doesn't line up with the long-term outlook for who you are. And is it the end of the world? If you draft Tyler Shuck 40th overall, and he doesn't really get to play a whole lot for you, probably not. But I just, I think there are more efficient ways you could have done this.

31:30Dave Helman: Right. Like if if they do end up picking top five and then the guy they take next year is good. We all just forget that Tyler Shuck was was a draft pick. But I think part of why I didn't love the pick so much either was I just flatly thought Spencer Rattler was a better prospect even in college. So to me, it's like not even like they're swinging for a higher ceiling. And of course, I can be wrong. I'm wrong about players all the time, but it didn't feel like they were swinging for a higher ceiling, really. And it is appearing that the floor isn't any better either. So it's like, well, what did we draft?

32:00Derrik Klassen: We are recording this before the vast majority of the league has played a preseason game. Maybe Tyler Shook is a gamer, man. I mean, I was there. I was there the night Dak Prescott went nuclear in the preseason against the Rams after looking very forgettable as a training camp quarterback. So I'm reluctant to write the guy off this early. But the concerns that we had about the Saints quarterback room are playing out at least through three weeks of camp. I guess we'll see. how it ages here over the rest of the month. I did. I mentioned Jake Hayner briefly, hilariously. He is listed as a potential starter on the Saints step chart because they did that really fun thing.

32:43Derrik Klassen: The Saints step chart literally says Spencer Rattler or Tyler Shook or Jake Hayner. So I guess I guess technically it's a three man race, although that would surprise me a little bit. Speaking of that, though, teams have released their first depth charts of the preseason as well. Recently, you can read into that as much as you want. I'm here to tell you that I'm I'm really not going to. I don't know. How do you feel about that?

33:10Dave Helman: Pretty much same, like almost anything that these these preseason charts could tell me just don't really do a lot for me because you just get a lot of like or or it's just stuff that it's like certain teams and the way that they view things will almost always put the veterans in front of rookies anyway, even if by the third preseason week, that's not even true. Like I want to say I saw the Steelers running back room put Jalen Warren ahead of Caleb Johnson. And it's like, OK, I get it. Warren does a lot of things really well, and he's been there for a long time. But realistically, like Johnson is probably to me going to be the lead back.

33:45Dave Helman: It's just certain stuff like that. It's like this feels like a waste of time.

33:49Derrik Klassen: Running backs in particular exasperate me at this time of year. And I'm certainly not trying to hate on fantasy football. I play every year. I love it the same way everybody else does. But fantasy football, I think drives a lot of this eagerness to find the next running back and find the guy who's going to win you your league. And it's valid because it happens every year. Guys come out of nowhere every year to be useful players, but it drives us to this place where I'm watching no contact training camp reps trying to make distinctions between backs. And I cannot stand it. I cannot stand trying to decipher like, well, it didn't look like he would have gotten tackled on that play, but I guess we'll never know.

34:35Derrik Klassen: And I feel like that's happening in cities across the NFL. Like I'm excited about Trey Benson and what he could do with James Connor. I've always loved Ty J Spears in Tennessee since he got drafted. I like a lot of these guys, but I cannot use training camp to try to decipher running back pecking order. It drives me up the wall.

34:58Dave Helman: Can I also say one more thing that drives me nuts with what happens a lot of time from fantasy people? and I get it. I promise you guys, the fun one hundred and ninety pound back is never going to be the lead back in his backfield. We have to stop that. The most recent one I've seen is Bucky Irving. And listen, man, Bucky is awesome. He's a really, really good player. He's never going to be the Ezekiel Elliott take three hundred and fifty carries in a season like that's just never going to happen with those guys. We have to get over that one.

35:24Derrik Klassen: Yeah, I think that's the other thing, too, is everybody is looking for a bell cow running back who they can just plug into a fantasy lineup and really not have to worry about. And those guys definitely exist, but I don't think we're going to get more of them. You know, like I think we have settled into a firm amount, you know, there's a handful in the league every year. There's guys you can count on, but the vast majority of teams are going to be using two to four guys to handle the running back position. And that's, that's just the world we live in y 'all. I don't, I don't think we need to breathlessly monitor Ja 'Cory Kroski merit reps at commander's camp, which super fun player.

36:03Derrik Klassen: It's not a knock on him. I just like, these are the names that you see crop up and it's like, yeah, could he have a role in this offense? Absolutely. Do I need to be worried about him like getting drafted in a fantasy league? I don't think so. I think these are the types of things that we can let fade into the noise during training camp. Now, having said that, oh, no, there is a lot of fun stuff to get to with depth charts and with playing time. Let's not bury the lead too much. I mean, the Cleveland Browns announced Shadur Sanders is going to start their preseason opener on Friday night. And from the sounds of it, with the injuries that they're dealing with at the quarterback position, I think it's going to be Shadur and Snoop Huntley carrying this game.

36:52Derrik Klassen: So Shadur, I would guess, is going to get an entire half of football, maybe even more than that. Like he could conceivably play three quarters, which I personally am pretty excited to see.

37:04Dave Helman: And they should, right? Like this is nothing against Snoop Huntley, but like we know what he is at this point and they've signed him as the fifth quarterback in what is already a crowded room that is going to have to get cut down at some point. Just give Sanders every rep available. And if they don't want to put him out there with like the fourth string offense, because those reps are at that point for him, maybe like to the point of detrimental and not even that useful. Fine. I get that. But for as long as you are trying to be a semi-serious offense in these preseason games, if the other guys can't go like Sanders should just get every rep possible, because I think even coming out of college, he was a guy who was going to need that.

37:40Dave Helman: Because I think to me, he's because he's not much of a creator outside of the pocket and doesn't have these insane wow tools the way that like a Cam Ward did. He's going to have to be a guy who plays like very within the offense and is like pretty tuned into the way that things need to go on time. You're only going to really be able to get to do that in the NFL when you get reps. And so the more that he can get, the better. And this isn't even me saying like he's got to go do this so he can prove to, you know, go win the starting job and stuff. I still have no idea who's going to get any starting reps this year in the regular season.

38:13Dave Helman: But for the preseason, if the other guys can't go, just give them all to him.

38:17Derrik Klassen: See, I'm sticking to my guns. I think Joe Flacco is going to be the Browns starter in week one, which.

38:24Dave Helman: Oh, it's a matter of just when is when when is he going? When is he leaving the lineup?

38:28Derrik Klassen: Yeah, that's when is Joe Flacco leaving the lineup? But for the time being, he's the guy you're getting ready to start week one against Cincinnati. knowing that and look I I've said before you can't give him no reps he's got to get practice reps when he's available but in the preseason I would give all those reps to Shadur and when he's healthy Dylan Gabriel as well I know Gabriel is dealing with a hamstring injury that's part of the reason Snoop Huntley is even on this team right now go go figure that the team with a four man quarterback competition needed a fifth that's just you would have thought they had all the

39:03Dave Helman: contingency plans necessary for injuries and yet here they are i'm playing shader and dylan gabriel

39:09Derrik Klassen: as much as humanly possible yeah i i hope he gets three quarters because i mean at this point snoop huntley is clearly just here to get you through the week right i mean he hasn't even had that much time on task you're not getting out of him getting anything out of him playing a lot of preseason snaps shit for that matter give shader the entire game and yeah i don't know what the plan is for the entire Browns starting roster, but it is encouraging to think that Shadur will play at least some of this game with the best version possible of a preseason Browns team. At least I would hope so. All right.

39:41Derrik Klassen: I'm curious for how you feel about this. And I think the answer is going to be not so great, but as long as we're looking at depth charts, Travis Hunter, starting wide receiver in Jacksonville, not very surprising. Second team on the defensive side of the ball, which I would say lines up with what we've heard about how they're using him far more offense than defense. But I'm guessing you have an opinion about this.

40:07Dave Helman: I hate it, dude. We did a different show where you and Robert like kind of sold me on like, well, in theory, their best three receivers, if you remove Travis Hunter, does not look very good. Whereas they could probably feel the decent secondary without Travis Hunter. Like Jerry and Jones can play a little bit of outside for them. You have Tyson Campbell. Jordan Lewis is going to play the nickel. That's a totally fine cornerback room to get by. But to me, when you go up and draft a player like trade up picks to go and take a guy in the top three of the draft, the way that they did with Travis Hunter, who is supposed to be a unicorn.

40:44Dave Helman: Me personally, I would like to play him at his best position, which in my opinion is corner. It's what he practiced more when he was in college. And I think that's where you see some of his most special skills. And like he does some really good stuff at receiver. Don't get me wrong. But when I watch some of his ball skills at DB, when I watch the way that he can click and close on stuff, when I watch just how fluid he is at the line dealing with some of these guys impressed, I just why would I not want that guy playing his best position? I think I can answer that.

41:12Derrik Klassen: And I'd love for your opinion on this, but. I don't want to undermine the importance of defense or the value of having a shut down cornerback. I mean, those guys don't grow on trees. They're incredibly valuable players. But if Travis Hunter is going to pay this trade off. Don't you think he's more valuable to the Jags as a pro bowl, hopefully all pro caliber receiver? Like, don't you think the Jags ceiling is higher if Brian Thomas Jr. and Travis Hunter are a chase and Higgins type of receiver duo than than not? You know, like not to say that there's no value in him being a great cornerback, but don't you think the Jags have a better chance of hitting whatever their ceiling is if they have two elite receivers?

42:03Dave Helman: I think because they would have two of them, I think that there's a chance that you could get there. But I think in a vacuum, like I would rather have what to me can be an all pro corner than a pro bowl receiver. Like every time, like I just like the Texans are actually a great example. I think Nico Collins is fantastic. I would rather have Derek Stingley on my team. Like to me, that is kind of what to me, what we're talking about with like the outcomes in terms of quality for Travis Hunter. I would rather have Derek Stingley.

42:35Derrik Klassen: I don't know if I agree with that. I mean, the Texas offense was bad with Nico last year. I mean, Nico missed a solid. And I'm not saying it's his fault, obviously, and they were good when in 2023.

42:45Dave Helman: But like, I just I think I'm more defense pilled than the rest of this show. And I really think that if you do have one of the truly elite corners, I think that's just as valuable as almost anything else in the league.

42:58Derrik Klassen: I mean, it's an age old debate where defense wins championships and all that, all that good stuff that we love to say. And you're probably not going deep into the postseason without some dudes on that side of the ball. But I think if you get enamored with it, it's understandable. Like so much about this game is just geared toward the offense. So much about this league is geared toward the passing attack specifically. I mean, it's it was like this mind blowing development when teams turned back to the run last year. We had to write these crazy think pieces about it because that's how pass oriented the game has become.

43:37Derrik Klassen: And you certainly can't say that it would win you a championship. but it just feels like a, a great way to tap into Trevor Lawrence's potential and be a surefire way to win a bunch of football games. Right. And you can worry about making the moves that you need to make to win a championship later. I mean, no offense to the Jags, but let's get into a world where we can consistently have a winning record before we worry about what's happening in the divisional round of the playoffs and I don't know having like I'm imagining a world where these two receivers like I said Chase and Higgins or or Devante and AJ Brown and Philly like if if you're operating in that world with a quarterback that we think highly of it's awfully enticed I'm going receiver it's a long way of saying I'm going with the receiver even I understand the value of a really good corner but

44:30Dave Helman: that's just the world that we're in right now again because they do also have Brian Thomas junior it does allow you to maybe they can be like the fourth or fifth best receiver duo in the league and that that does change the math a little bit but I don't know I think for me in a vacuum it's like I'd always rather have the guy who to me when he's on the field tilts the field and really determines how the other team has to play I think he could be that at receiver but I think there's a lot more that we have to see and a lot more left up in the air I think with corner like I would honestly be shocked if he's not that kind of player.

45:03Derrik Klassen: I hope we get to see both. We've talked about it plenty. I mean, I hope the Jags have a plan to work him heavily at receiver, maybe in one preseason game, depending on how many snaps he gets. Maybe you up the defensive snaps in another game. I said it already, but let's let's see. Let's put everything on this guy's plate before we worry about limiting him to one role. We haven't touched on this trade at all. It happened like in a, in a break in our recording schedule, but Robert called it and it came to fruition perfectly. The Eagles did do a mid summer DB trade. They sent a Thomas Booker from their defensive line to the Las Vegas Raiders in exchange for cornerback, Ja 'Cory and Bennett, which classic Howie Roseman shoring things up before they even become a problem.

45:53Derrik Klassen: Cause that That was the word out of Eagles camp was your other corners besides Quinion Mitchell. Maybe not as consistent as you would prefer. So why not add one more guy to the mix?

46:04Dave Helman: I I don't even know what to think. No, I do know what I think of this trade. I think it's fine for the Eagles. They probably realistically never wanted to start Keely Ringo or whoever else on the other side. So you go and get a young competitor at the position who I think can be like a fine cornerback number two. And I know statistically Bennett was really, really good last year. I think a little bit of that to me was the product of like everyone else was kind of bad. And so it's just he was getting thrown out a little bit, you know, less in some situations than other guys. So I think that was part of it.

46:33Dave Helman: But I think he's a good promising player. I'm shocked the Raiders wanted to part with him, given that the rest of their secondary is not any good. Like it's just baffling to me like they're starting. I'm not I'm not shocked, but go ahead. They're starting now. Eric Stokes, who has not been a consistent starting corner in a long time and was like up and down with the Packers when he was there. And Darian Porter, who some people believe were like. He wasn't even a full time player in college, like it's just it is a bizarre cornerback room. It already was. And now they've traded away who was probably going to be their best guy.

47:09Derrik Klassen: it's only bizarre until you remember who coaches them now and then it all makes sense and jacorian bennett is in the 42nd percentile of nfl cornerbacks in terms of height he's 5 11 his arms are just shy of 32 inches which is the 66th percentile and to pete carroll and guys from the pete carroll tree you might as well not even be in the league. I was going to say, how dare you play cornerback if you're not at least six foot tall,

47:41Dave Helman: preferably like six to just going to say I'm the sizest on this show. And I'm like, five eleven with decent arms is not that bad. Like, what are we talking about here? But Pete is he operates a different way. I get it.

47:52Derrik Klassen: It is a perfectly reasonable size. Like Ja 'Cory and Bennett is just fine to play cornerback. But this scheme, the way Pete Carroll has always done things. Dan Quinn's the same way, by the way. And obviously he came up under Pete. He was part of those defenses back in the day. It matters to a lot of these coaches. And I have always thought it's a little bit silly. Yeah, I mean, ideally, sure. Like if you can find a Richard Sherman or a Brandon Browner, like those guys are a ton of fun and you can have great results. But trading away a guy who doesn't fit your type in your first year when you're already up against it in your secondary.

48:35Derrik Klassen: It is a little crazy to me. It's just not surprising because a lot of football coaches operate this way. It's a good point.

48:43Dave Helman: I don't know. I just felt like at least maybe give it one season to see if you can live with a guy like this. And maybe honestly, all the practices and stuff, they saw that that was enough for the type of stuff that they want to do that. That wasn't going to fit. And I will say, like in Vic Fangio's defense, that's not going to matter less that he's not a big guy like they're a big play. a lot of off zone, just drive on stuff type of defense, which if you're a little bit undersized, it's completely fine. So I get it all from that angle. It's just when you flatly say bad cornerback room traded away, maybe their best guy, regardless of all the other context, it's just a funny,

49:16Derrik Klassen: it's just a funny, funny thing to a team that has a history of doing these trades very well. The other team. Yes. Yeah. It's, it's a tired joke at this point, but like, maybe we just send the call to voicemail when Howie Roseman calls during training camp. I mean, I think it's nice for both teams. The Raiders obviously are thin at defensive tackle after releasing Christian Wilkins. So they get Booker to help them there. The Eagles needed the help in the secondary. But is any going to be is anybody going to be surprised if Bennett plugs right into this Philly defense and not even saying he's going to have a like Zach Bond type of jump, But I'm very confident he'll be a useful player for this defense somewhere along the line.

49:59Derrik Klassen: All right, a couple more storylines to get to, but we're going to take one more break before that.

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51:22Derrik Klassen: okay Derek it's time for the part of the show where I completely contradict myself and I will just be a hypocrite but that's okay I'm hosting the show I can do that because I just said we don't want to get wrapped up in depth chart stuff we certainly don't want to get carried away with rookies that are shining during training camp but I do think it's worthwhile while to try to look around the NFL and see things that are exciting, but that also makes sense. You know, like every team has a guy that's making plays and standing out on the practice field. And every single fan base is talking about a guy right now where they're saying, well, he won't make it to the practice squad if we cut him.

52:03Derrik Klassen: There's just no way. And 99 % of the time, that's just not the case. But there are a couple instances in the league right now where I'm seeing guys making moves and I'm wondering if it can be more than that. And I think in a few circumstances, you can look and say, oh, no, this makes a lot of sense to me. And the guy I want to start with. Is Torrey Horton up in Seattle, have you has has he cropped up on your radar at all in the last few weeks?

52:31Dave Helman: Not so much with preseason stuff, but he was a guy that when they drafted him, it was, you know, it's it's that's one of those picks where like, in theory, they get a discount, right but it was like well he's coming off of a pretty major injury so you just don't know how he's going to bounce back from it but then that's also one of those picks that by the time you get to August and it looks like he's fully healthy then you're like oh well they did get a discount he's he's good so I think he would add a lot of to me intermediate juice that that offense was would be missing otherwise if he is not the player they need him to be so I think it's pretty

53:00Derrik Klassen: exciting he ran a 4-4-1 five months post-surgery he injured his knee in his last year at Colorado State, his relative athletic score puts him in the 98th percentile. Like, yeah, when you say juice and you can see it, I'm not trying to get worked up about cell phone training camp videos, but like the guy has juice like you can see it in Seahawks training camp reps. He's getting work with the ones. And I think the reason why this in particular excites me is what bummed me out about the Seahawks in the offseason because Cooper Cup is a phenomenal player. He's accomplished a lot in the NFL. But you look at Cooper Cup and Jackson Smith and Jigba and you're like, OK, not only do these guys fill similar roles, but where is the speed?

53:49Derrik Klassen: Like, where is the threat when you're talking about an opposing defense? And this guy, between his size, the role that he fills and his speed, I'm just like, oh, this is a guy that could have a very clearly defined role very quickly. I know Marquez Valdez Scantling is in Seattle as well. not ready to say that Torrey Horton is like a day one starter, but there's clearly something worth getting excited about here based on the early returns in camp.

54:18Dave Helman: Yeah. And like, to me, it's not just the juice. I mean, he is a lot faster and going to be more explosive than all those guys, especially Cooper cup at this stage in his career. But I think the other complication I had with the Seahawks offense was when I think of Jackson Smith and Jacob, where do I want to align him ideally in the slot? When I think of Cooper cup, where do I want to align him ideally in the slot? Exactly. And then Marquez Valdez scaling. It's just like he's a very like he can play outside, but he's a very particular just get down the field and block type role role player. The Matt Collins is the Gabe Davis is that sort of player.

54:49Dave Helman: Torrey Horton could be like an actual run some serious one on one routes from the outside. And I do think that if this offense wants to be the team that they're selling us, that they can be this offseason, they kind of need that player. because I do struggle to envision how the rules are supposed to perfectly play out without a guy who can kind of consistently win from the outside.

55:10Derrik Klassen: And that's why I would guess the Seahawks are going to give him every opportunity to grab a role. You know, Reek Woolen was calling this guy, Jerry Rice Jr. after practice the other day. And Mike McDonald even mentioned it. He was like, I see, like, I see the same stuff. Y 'all see, like this guy makes a play every day. And I can't stress this enough to like it's not only is it early, but the games matter for a guy like this to like, you've got to take it into the stadium with the lights on with a bunch of people watching. You got to be consistent across multiple types of opportunities. But I feel confident saying the Seahawks are probably going to throw a lot of these opportunities at him because I think it would be big for their offense if you could count on a guy like this when two months ago, maybe you weren't so sure.

55:57Dave Helman: Yeah, I would say the best way to try to describe what they probably want out of him is obviously Clint Kubiak is coming from New Orleans. If Horton can be like 75 percent of what Chris Alave was for the Saints, at least in year one, you know, obviously you want to hope he'll be better than that. But like if he can fill that role, that makes this offense where I can like actually see a clearer picture for what it's supposed to be now.

56:22Derrik Klassen: Everything we just said about him, I think applies to Dante Thornton in Vegas as well, which we just spent a lot of time talking about how preseason depth charts don't matter. I do think it matters when a fourth round rookie is listed as a starter immediately. Like he started turning heads from the very beginning and it doesn't seem like the Raiders are shying away from that. Like the Raiders seem perfectly comfortable saying, yeah, we want this guy to be a part of what we got going on.

56:49Dave Helman: on a team that drafted a different receiver ahead of him in Jack Besh. And so and again, this is another one where it's like to me, Trey Tucker is a very particular kind of receiver. Jacoby Myers is ideally more of an underneath possession, probably from the slot type of player. And then even like Brock Bowers, you kind of want to put out in the slot as much as you can. And so it's like, OK, who can we have that can play a little bit outside for us and stretch the field? Thornton hopefully gives that to them. So he actually was not a player I watched that much going into the draft. So he's a player I'm a little bit more in wait and see mode.

57:22Dave Helman: I want to see how these preseason games roll out. But I do think that that would have been the missing spot of this offense because I like a lot of the rest of it. Right. Like Jente Bowers, Myers. But those are kind of all players that win within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. You kind of needed somebody who could win further than that, especially with Geno Smith, the quarterback.

57:40Derrik Klassen: It's it's really enticing. Yeah. And that's the the challenge is not getting overly excited about what we're seeing. But again, if the team's willing to call the guy a starter, that is enough of a vote of confidence that I'm like, all right, let's let's see what we got here, because the team is acknowledging it. This is not rampant speculation. One more guy I'll mention. And look, these guys are receivers. It is easy to notice receivers at training camp. I think that's worth pointing out. Like line play is hard to evaluate in a training camp setting. Receivers get the ball thrown to them. But another guy I've really enjoyed monitoring over the last couple of weeks is a draft pick that really caught me off guard.

58:22Derrik Klassen: But Brad Holmes might have done it again with Isaac Tesla. Like this has been a super fun development. And I like everything that he's done so far. Like he had a nice day in the Hall of Fame game. They're moving him up the depth chart, letting him work with the starters. And then the thing that really sold me was our guy, Colton Pouncey, who covers the Lions for us, does a phenomenal job over in Detroit. He he had a practice note where to slot just destroyed a guy on a block to spring a touchdown in the run game. And I was like, that's Lions football right there. Like if you can do it all like the nifty catches are fun.

58:58Derrik Klassen: But if you're just de-cleaning guys as a run blocker, then I think you might have a role with the Detroit Lions. So that was really exciting to see.

59:06Dave Helman: I think of the three this is the one I'm the most excited about which given his build I don't think will be surprising to anybody he's like six three and a half 214 pounds and when you watch him run he's just a powerful strider like even just in in that preseason game where like some of the crossers that he's running he's just a very powerful mover you add that on top of the fact that he's going to get in there a little bit in the run game like I think in year one maybe he's just Josh Reynolds but like we've seen what a Josh Reynolds can do in this kind of offense and then And if he taps into anything a little bit more explosive than that, I think that they could really be cooking.

59:39Dave Helman: So I'm with you on on draft day. This was a very like, whoa, they moved all those resources for for that guy. That's kind of interesting. But I don't know the more I sit about it and it's like, well, they've needed an ex for a long time. I think they needed a bigger body to replace a guy like Josh Reynolds. Maybe it can work out. I really hope it does.

59:59Derrik Klassen: I think it's worth noting, too. Again, it's it's fun to be on the lookout for the Puka Nakua, right? Like the guy who's just the man from the beginning. But I think it's also worth remembering. It's a long freaking season, dude, and teams are going to change and evolve. And maybe some of these guys will not make an impact in the first two, four, six weeks of the season. But if an Isaac to slot, especially for a team like the Lions, which we expect to be relevant deep into the season, if they can get more and more out of him to the point where he's a guy that you can lean on or may not lean on, but at least get something from in the late stages of the season.

1:00:40Derrik Klassen: I mean, I know Xavier Worthy was a first round pick. It's not a great comparison, but the difference between September Xavier Worthy and December Xavier Worthy was it was insane. It's a completely different thing. So if this is where these guys are in August, even if they don't hit the ground running and become stars in the first few weeks of the season, it's exciting to think what that means for their development over the course of an entire season. All right. You had one that you wanted to get to, which I love you for it, because like I said, it's hard to evaluate O and D line play during training camp.

1:01:13Derrik Klassen: But we do want to check in on the Texans offensive line for obvious reasons. What do you got?

1:01:19Dave Helman: Yeah, I so the Texans obviously did a lot of shuffling around their offensive line this year. You know, Laramie Tunsil out. One of the other guards was out, ended up drafting Ariante Ursary in the second round, which to me at the time, it's like, OK, you look at the depth chart. Cam Robinson, who they signed, I think, to be probably a bandaid at left tackle, but probably the entrenched starter. and then at right tackle I think ideally they would have wanted Blake Fisher to maybe take a step in year two after a pretty rough rookie season so to me that was going to be the plan and then you just go in thinking like okay Ursary he to me was a little bit of a project coming out of the draft like kind of some heavy feet I think sometimes moving trying to get targets at the second level he could be a little bit hit or miss but it was like okay you can see the power you can see the size why some of this would work if he could speed some things up a little bit he is already apparently fighting for the starting job at both left and right tackle.

1:02:14Dave Helman: And it seems that like at right tackle that that door is probably a little bit more open, given how I think Blake Fisher played last year and how apparently camp might be going. So I don't know if we're going to get Ursary as the starting tackle or how well he's even going to play. But it does mean something to me that a month ago I would have been like, yeah, Cam Robinson, Blake Fisher out of sight, out of mind. That's going to be their tackles for whatever reason. But now the fact that it's kind of in flux is interesting to me because I think ultimately whoever the three whoever the tackles were going to be all we wanted was the Texans offensive line to be better than it was last year and so to me if that means Blake Fisher if it means Ariante Urshry I don't really care but it means something to me that Urshry is already kind of taking the job potentially

1:02:55Derrik Klassen: do you think that means anything in the bigger picture because I'm with you if you're not a top 15 pick at offensive tackle, or maybe if there's a very specific reason why you weren't like Josh Simmons this year, we know why Josh Simmons was picked where he was and he wouldn't have been if he was healthy. Outside of that, it's hard for me to get excited about a rookie offensive tackle who's taken outside. I don't know. Yeah. The top 15, the top 20. And, and you hear so much about how offensive line play in college is, is in a terrible spot. Like you're not getting guys prepared as well as you possibly can for the NFL level, just because of the difference in schemes and splits and stuff like that.

1:03:40Derrik Klassen: But there's more success stories than you might guess. I mean, Roger Rosengarten comes to mind right off the top of my head in Baltimore last year, where I was very worried about the Ravens offensive line in part, because you're probably asking a second round rookie to play right tackle. But more and more, it feels like a lot of these guys are capable of the jump in a way that maybe I'm not giving them credit for.

1:04:04Dave Helman: I think that's a great point. I still believe that ultimately, if you want an all pro or consistent pro bowl tackle, you probably got to take them top 15. If you really want to get like the blue chip tackles, you probably have to take them there. There's not that many like Jordan Mailata is to go around where you take them later and they become a really special player. But I do think that you can pretty consistently get like quality level tackles in the second and third round. I mean, some of those guys that you already mentioned, like Delmar Glaze for the Raiders played pretty decently last year as a third round rookie.

1:04:36Dave Helman: Like you can get some of these guys. Bernard Raymond, I believe, was a day two pick for the Colts, and he was OK as a rookie and really became into a solid guy who just got paid pretty handsomely. So I actually think that you can find competent tackle play in this range. And so if Ursary, you know, I still expect them to be a below average tackle in the grand scheme of things. But Blake Fisher was worse than that last year. So that's an upgrade. And if they can get two or three more of those upgrades along the offensive line, that changes a lot for this Texans team. Hopefully that on top of the rules in the offense seemingly being better or hopefully.

1:05:11Derrik Klassen: I think I think a lot of it is expectation, too. Right. Like, it's funny. I say Juan U. Morris was a third round pick. And I mean that as a compliment. Maybe if you're a Chiefs fan, maybe you don't feel that way. But I'm like, hey, if you can get average to maybe below average, you know, offensive tackle play out of your 90 second overall pick, I'm probably calling that a win. Luca Luca Deci in Tampa was pick 57 a few years ago. Like, again, these aren't guys that you probably get excited to talk about. But the hit rate, it seems like is it's probably better than I give it credit for. Because, yeah, when I hear that you were drafted outside the top 15, 20, I'm just like, all right, it's not that you can't be a good player, but it probably won't happen quickly.

1:05:58Derrik Klassen: But, yeah, maybe I need to revisit this take as we as I get into my draft coverage.

1:06:03Dave Helman: Yeah, I think we just have to recognize that we're not going to those guys aren't going to be the penaceals. Like if you want the penaceal, they're going to go high. But again, you can get whereas I do think the reason that's weird is like I think we've seen a lot of the second and third round receivers become truly the best in the league, like the A.J. Browns and guys like that. It tackle is probably just never going to happen, but you can get some solid guys. You got to feel five offensive linemen. They can't all be all pros.

1:06:27Derrik Klassen: So if this works out. And of course, like we're out over our skis here, but let's just live there for a minute. But like, let's say some of these Texans O-line moves work out better and faster than we would guess. And that's been my concern with the Texans this entire offseason. How does that change your thoughts on Houston if this offensive line revamp is better and faster than maybe we're giving it credit for?

1:06:54Dave Helman: So I still think I would be shocked if they're any better than like the 22nd best offensive line in the league. however we've seen CJ Stroud be pretty dang good with the 22nd ish best offensive line in the league the way that he was his rookie season it's just last year it was like a truly bottom three bottom four unit along with teams like the Bears and the Giants and the Seahawks and stuff like that so if they can get out of that gutter and not speed up CJ Stroud's process so much to where he's just dirting a bunch of throws I think that we could live in a world again where we remember why we were all so excited about him.

1:07:30Dave Helman: And so I don't know if they're going to be. I think if they get to that, they're not going to be like a top eight offense. But again, they were like a mid 20s offense last year. They can get back to at least average if the offensive line takes all those steps. But I think I'm still very much in wait and see how how all of that actually comes together.

1:07:46Derrik Klassen: We don't have to wait or see for that much longer. I know preseason is not everything, but like I said, we just we need a little more information. We need a little more data and And we're going to get it here coming up this weekend. In the meantime, that does it for us. Derek and I will be back on the other side of the weekend. But don't worry, we got you covered the whole way through. Robert's got another beat writer notebook coming up on Saturday, I believe. And we will have another show for you, Derek and I, on Monday. A lot to get to. Obviously, preseason games starting. We'll hit on the news as we need to.

1:08:18Derrik Klassen: But until then, we appreciate you all so much. We will talk to you next time.

1:08:47Derrik Klassen: We'll see you next time.

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