The Jets-Titans trade, the Malik Willis market, and the rest of the news from combine week

0:03Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, our last day in Indianapolis. I'm driving home in like two hours. Great week. I love the combine. I love the combine. This is, I think, my 15th or 16th one. Spent four days here just visiting with other writers, people from other media companies, friends, coaches, personnel, people. It's unlike anything else in the NFL. Obviously, the Super Bowl is the Super Bowl, but the Super Bowl is a massive, sprawling event where not the entire league is there. I was talking to a coach yesterday at the Starbucks in the JW, which is the nerve center of this entire thing where Mike Sando just holds court for an entire week.

0:44Robert Mays: And he was just saying, like, this is our convention. Like, this is the opportunity for everybody in our business to get together and just kind of chat, shoot the shit, learn stuff. And that's exactly what the Week in India is every single year. And so excited to go home and see my wife, but also sad to be leaving this because I really do enjoy it. We wrapped up our combine week here on the athletic football show in the same way we have for each of the last couple of years. Obviously, there's a lot of news nuggets that are going to come out that have nothing to do with the draft. Who's getting cut?

1:11Robert Mays: Who's not? Who's getting franchise tag? What does the quarterback carousel look like? What is the early kind of scuttlebutt about player movement sound like? That's what we did today. Me, Dave, Derek, digging into all of the news that was from the NFL Combine in 2026. So let's get to that conversation right now.

1:35Robert Mays: We are here at Radio Row at the Indianapolis Convention Center on what is our final day of the 2026 NFL Combine. And the good news is all of us have longer arms than Reuben Bain.

1:48Dave Helman: I don't need to fact check that But I'm going to roll with it

1:51Derrik Klassen: I can't, no, everybody knows how short I am I can't in good conscience make fun of Ruben Bain He does have very short arms though

1:58Robert Mays: It's the only bit of news I've seen That's the thing when I'm here Is that like the days are so busy In a really cool way, like I love being here But even like the trade we're going to talk about On the top of the show today I didn't see it until like five hours after it happened Just because that's kind of how the combine goes So the only bit of like draft nugget news I've seen is that Ruben Bain has really short arms, but we kind of already knew that.

2:19Derrik Klassen: I know we were talking about that before you sat down, like from the time he got on the radar as a prospect, it was like, well, Ruben Bain's not going to measure well. You just kind of have to make peace with that. He's still a good player. But then when you see the number, everybody freaks the hell out. It's like, well, if no defensive end or edge player drafted in the top 100 has ever had arms that short, I get why it's a talking point, but I don't know, man. The tape's still really fun.

2:45Robert Mays: We're going to have plenty of time in the next month and a half to talk drafts, really two months. I mean, the draft is essentially two months from right now. We're going to spend today kind of doing what we've done the last couple of years on the final show from Combine Week. We're just going to discuss what the news was around the NFL over the last few days. Some of this is going to be nuggets from press conferences. Some of this is going to be things that people have reported about markets for certain players. Again, we've got a trade to talk about. So we're going to spend the next hour or so scooping up all of the things that have kind of come out over the last few days.

3:17Robert Mays: And let's begin, Derek, with the trade that happened today. This is a fun one. There's a lot of layers to this. It's kind of like a player for player for player trades are consistently my favorite thing that happens in the NFL because I always find them so compelling. This is another one where it's kind of a throwaway deal, but I actually think there's a lot to chew on here. Jermaine Johnson goes from the New York Jets to the Tennessee Titans. the Jets get back to Vandre's sweat in that trade your initial thoughts about so I don't think it's

3:45Dave Helman: a throwaway deal because this very clearly says that like Robert Sala has full control of what's going on with the defense which we probably all assumed that that was going to be the case right and so I think him getting a player that had been effective under Sala previously and actually had played some of his best ball like back in 2023 and I thought was finally ascending into the player he was supposed to be as like a second round pick obviously gets hurt that kind of starts to ruin some of that and so I'm pretty interested in what that looks like my conflicting thought on it is like I understand that solid style of defense doesn't really employ these 330 pound nose guards they don't really care for that to fond of sweat to me is like too good for that to be a consideration like I would still want that kind of player on my football that's why I like it for the Jets

4:25Robert Mays: that's why for the Jets I really like it because it was funny I was talking to a personnel guy today and we were just discussing pro personal strategy and just like some of the players that you seek out in a given offseason. And when regime changes happen, that's when you can see opportunity, right? Because there are guys that are good players that may not be valued by the new regime in the way that they were by the old one, just because you have a scheme change. Tomatris, that's a perfect example of this, right? He had a really, really nice second season, but you go now to a four down attack front with Robert Sala.

4:55Robert Mays: He doesn't really fit that style of defense. So he's more expendable than a player of his talent level should be. And Jermaine Johnson hitting free agency. It's$13 million against the Caps. Wetz,$10 million less than that. And Dave, you know this better than I do, but picking second overall in this draft, if the Jets want to pick an edge rusher with a second overall pick, they can fill that spot. So now in a down year for defensive tackle specifically, you fill a defensive tackle need while also having an avenue to replace Jermaine Johnson with four more cheap years potentially.

5:25Derrik Klassen: That's the that is the main component of this for me. I do. The salad part is a good is a good note, Derek, but it just crystallizes what the Jets might do for me. And like Fernando Mendoza is going one overall. We've known that for quite some time. I think it stood to reason the Jets might do this anyway, even with Jermaine Johnson on the roster. But now you do that and now it's Will McDonald basically and some parts as far as edge rushers go. And now take your pick. I would assume if it were me, I would start doing the photoshops of Arvel Reese in New York green. But if you like David Bailey, if from Texas Tech, I want to be schools.

6:06Robert Mays: Now that we're in a we're away from the building, the beast world. I'm doing this for me as much as anybody else. I don't know that strongly who David Bailey is. So I assume there are some listeners out there who do not know who David Bailey is.

6:19Derrik Klassen: Arvel Reese from Ohio State. David Bailey from Texas Tech. Ruben Bain from Miami. I think his arm measurements are going to keep him from going to overall. But hey, if the Jets love him, then they could make him the number two pick as well. But it feels very, very likely that if the Jets are making that pick, it'll be who they think is the top edge rusher in the draft.

6:38Robert Mays: And I want to be clear. I do like this for the Jets, and I do think it makes sense. I think it's just a smart move based on where they are. I also think this could work out for the Titans because Jermaine Johnson is still a young player. We've seen him be really productive. He's playing on his fifth-year option. It is$13 million. But if you get really nice production out of him, that's still a bargain for a really good edge rusher. and he wasn't a sending player in 23. He was not as good last year. Two different considerations there. First year off an Achilles, always a crapshoot for guys. And two, it's just a scheme that he wasn't familiar with.

7:07Robert Mays: You're one of a new system. You put him back in that wide nine world. We're going to let you pin your ears back, get after the quarterback. And Ed Drescher was a massive need for the Titans. Just a massive, massive need.

7:18Dave Helman: It was a massive need just based off last year. And they're losing some of the guys that they had last year, like Arden Key, Jahad Ward. And those were all guys that really wouldn't have even made sense to bring back based on the defense anyway. So like they, other than the guy they drafted last year, they need bodies and bodies and bodies at edge.

7:32Robert Mays: A couple more things, bits of news for the Titans. They released Lloyd Cushenberry and Xavier Woods on Wednesday, frees up about$8 million in cap space. It's a team that even with Jermaine Johnson on the books still has like$90 million in effective cap space, which is another reason I like that trade for the Titans because the cap space has to go somewhere. There aren't that many edge rushers in free agency that you'd want to pay$13 million a year. So using that money on Jermaine Johnson and making a trade would be the reason you find a guy like that, I think makes sense. But Cushenberry, that's another one where coming off the injury just was never quite the same.

8:05Robert Mays: And Xavier Woods, even if he played okay last year, like you were talking about, Derek, it's an older player. You know, sometimes that's just you can go a different direction. There are a million safeties available in free agency. And so if you want to get a little bit younger at that position, that is something potentially the Jets could do.

8:20Derrik Klassen: The Titans have spent. Or Titans, Titans, excuse me. The Titans have spent so much money on so many players over the last like two years. And somehow they're still in this like, well, it's a blank slate phase, which it's exciting because you've got the quarterback answer. But it's also just like, man, how much money have the Titans given out over the last like three years? And for what so far to this point? I still support a good chunk of it because I think that I was so firmly in favor of what they did, even like before they got Cam when it was with Will Levis. It's like, okay, how are you supposed to evaluate any of this stuff without some sort of infrastructure in place?

8:56Derrik Klassen: So I don't say that to be mean to the Titans, really. It's just, it's funny that we're still here. Like, they're still in this phase of team building, even though they've been spending a lot of money to try to get out of it.

9:08Robert Mays: That's always fun when you try to solve all these problems and you solve none of them and you have to do it all over again. The other bit of news I wanted to hit at the top of the show today, Malik Willis and just the Malik Willis sweepstakes and what that might look like here in the early part of free agency. Jordan Schultz reported earlier this week that looks like Malik Willis is going to be getting upwards of$30 million a year. We'll see about that. But I think that the overall, and it's beyond just one report. John Eric Sullivan, who's the new GM of the Dolphins, at his, I think it was on Pro Football Talk or even during his media availability this week, quote was, any team that is potentially in a needy quarterback situation, if they tell you they're not talking about Malik Willis, that would be a lie.

9:46Robert Mays: So there obviously is going to be a market for his services. And Derek, not to take away from Malik Willis, who I think all of us, when we watched him play in the back half of last year, you watch him in that Chicago game, you watch him in the Ravens game. I think the logical conclusion for a lot of folks was this is a starting quarterback in the NFL. He deserves an opportunity to do that. So not to diminish that, because I do think that's true. At the same time, the idea that there is this rabid market for Malik Willis, I think says as much about the other avenues and options of quarterback this spring as it does about the viability of Malik Willis.

10:20Dave Helman: So 30 million says more about the desperation than it does about Malik Willis. Like this to me, what Malik Willis has shown where it's a half dozen of pretty exciting games. You really like the tools. He's still young, clearly got better in his second stop, which I think like showing some development is a nice thing if you're trying to invest in a young quarterback. But that to me is like in a more normal quarterback market, potentially somebody who signs for 15 million dollars a year. And it's like kind of still a competition. You're not really necessarily committing to him. But this is going to be an amount of money that if you bring him in, like that is your starting quarterback and you don't have any other options.

10:53Robert Mays: We're going to throw Malik Willis. People are going to throw Malik Willis into the same bucket that we've seen with a lot of these kind of second chance quarterbacks over the last three or four years. Your Bakers, your Donalds. And I know Malik Willis is a third round pick, but he's a very talented player. Right. Watching how fast I was talking to somebody about this today. Watching how fast the market for that archetype of player has changed over the last three years is insane. Baker Mayfield, who was the number one overall pick in the NFL draft, signed a one-year$4 million contract with the Bucs.

11:24Robert Mays: And then you've watched it climb, right? And so you have the one year was Darnold. $10 million, right? It was like, yeah, I think, yeah, something like that. So one year,$10 million for Darnold. Last year, it's one year,$15 million for Daniel Jones. But even the Justin Fields thing, Justin Fields being at$20, I think is a direct reflection of it working with Darnold. And now, because it has worked again with some of these guys, Daniel Jones, Darnold again, now the second-chance quarterback contract market is$30 million a year. So the fact that it's been—and I know there's nuances and differences in the situations, but essentially we're 8X-ing what the comeback quarterback market was from three years ago is incredible.

12:05Derrik Klassen: I was going to say, when you said, we'll see about that, I wanted to ask you, like, do you not think he's going to hit it?

12:11Robert Mays: I mean, we'll see how many teams are willing to go to a certain price. Because I know there are teams that I've talked to a couple people this week. They're like, I know this team likes them. It's just going to be a matter of what price they're willing to do it at. Because we can talk about some of the situations and I think what the walkaway price would be. So in your mind, as you're thinking about Malik Willis, the other quarterback options, and the teams that need quarterbacks, who do you think could justifiably pay$30 million for Malik Willis? Because that team is harder to find for me.

12:40Derrik Klassen: like when you when you break it down and look across the landscape it does get harder to find a suitor let me think about this that's like that amount of money and if i'm gonna spend if i'm gonna

12:50Dave Helman: go into that tier spending that amount of money i would rather pursue kyler murray and i know that it'll be a little bit more expensive but there's so much more proof of concept that that is a good nfl player than there is with malik willis and maybe maybe malik willis is a really good nfl quarterback but at least with kyler murray like we have seen it before and he murray is more akin to the Sam Darnolds, the Baker Mayfields, where it's like extremely talented top five pick, maybe just had some sort of falling out with his team, maybe had some sort of injury that kind of stumbled him a little bit.

13:18Dave Helman: Now maybe he can revive it. That's not even really what Malik Willis is. Like, it's such a different thing.

13:22Robert Mays: Here's my concern with this. So the three teams that I listed out, like that I think you could look at and be like, all right, I can understand why they would be involved in Malik Willis. Jets, Cardinals, Browns, okay? Okay, I was gonna say Cardinals for sure. And then the other, obviously Miami has explicitly said that we might be interested, but here's the Miami problem. It's a money issue, right? Like, is Miami going to have the financial flexibility to sign a guy to a$30 million a year deal? The other three teams can't, right? Like, the Cardinals can find the money. The Jets obviously have the money.

13:48Robert Mays: And if you look at the Browns situation, my assumption is they're going to restructure Watson's deal. They can restructure Denzel Ward's deal. They could have upwards of, like,$40-ish million this year. And I think they'll probably be fine pushing money into future years because right now they have, like,$100 million in 2027 space. And so if they want to free it up and spend, they can't. when you're spending$30 million on Malik Willis, though, for the Jets, the Cardinals, and the Browns, my problem with that sort of price tag is, if it's one year, if it's$15 a year, and it doesn't work out, you move on next year, you're back in the quarterback market.

14:20Robert Mays: If you're spending$30 million a year, you're likely devoting an amount of resources and eating enough into your 2027 cap, where if you are one of the worst teams in the league, and you're picking in the top five, now you're stealing one year of the rookie quarterback contract window if you have to draft one. I just, I'm not sure how I feel about that overall calculus if I'm one of these teams.

14:40Derrik Klassen: To go back to your point about the second chance quarterback market changing, these used to be one-year flyers. And I feel like now, at least in the case of Malik Willis, this has to be like a two-year commitment to see if he can be your guy. But I would argue, and we don't have to get too deep into it because we did it like last week, But if you were to trade for Kyler Murray, that's a two-year commitment probably before you can get away from Kyler Murray. It is.

15:08Robert Mays: Just because the guarantees that will click into place with his deal early in the league year, it is a two-year commitment.

15:13Derrik Klassen: So what's the difference? Other than I guess you have more proof of concept that Kyler Murray is a pretty good NFL quarterback. I've seen him be good. Let me play devil's advocate.

15:21Robert Mays: You've also seen where the limitations of Kyler Murray are. And you can maybe talk yourself into Malik Willis not having those same limitations.

15:27Dave Helman: I disagree. The limitations in the bottom end of Kyler Murray is as good or better than anything Malik Willis has shown so far. Like, yes. And so I just like I'm I would rather your Kyler Murray love is still in there. I'm not going to let it go. He's a perfectly fine NFL quarterback.

15:46Robert Mays: And I don't want to get too bogged down in this because I think that we've seen teams. Dead money is not necessarily a roadblock to moving on. Like, let's let's play this out hypothetically. Let's just say that In this draft there were two quarterbacks And the Jets were picking second overall Justin Fields is this year's version of Malik Willis When you look at the numbers It was two for 40 last year A good 30 of that was guaranteed If the Jets were to cut Justin Fields this year It would be$22 million in dead money If they were picking second overall And there was a worthwhile quarterback there You walk away from that$22 million And you never think about it So maybe that's going to be the same situation for a team If Malik Willis doesn't work out But when that number starts creeping up and up and up, there is a consideration there.

16:26Robert Mays: Like there is an anvil financially that you'd have to deal with if this doesn't work out. Is there a team that you would like to see Malik Willis land with of the ones that I mentioned?

16:35Derrik Klassen: Of the ones that you mentioned, I just think it's probably cleanest for the Cardinals. Like if you can move on from Kyler Murray, you have things in place there. You got a left tackle that you feel pretty good about. Trey McBride's the man. um you we'll see what happens with marvin harrison jr but like there's there's infrastructure there and so i think it's just like to be honest with you it's hard for me to get excited about and and maybe this is like off base because it's always easier to clean up finances than i think we give it credit for it's hard for me to get excited about the dolphins knowing what tua's money is going to do to them um it's it's really hard to figure out what that's

17:17Robert Mays: going to look like because I just don't with the Cardinals. The Cardinals are in a spot where I'm looking at the numbers right now as you're talking. If they have to be so motivated to trade him. If they trade him before June 1st, Arizona, it's only seven, it's$18 million in dead money. They save 34 against the cap. Even if they cut him post June 1st, it's$47 million in dead money. They only get$5 million against the cap. And if they cut him before June 1, it's a disaster and so the hope has to be that because in the musical chairs quarterback situation this offseason there aren't that many attractive options a team is willing to throw you a six for kyler murray and just say you know what we're willing to live with the fact that it's kind of a quagmire financially if you're arizona with the dolphins there's no good solution it's like

18:03Derrik Klassen: no one's trading for that contract i think and that's i think the cardinals are the closest of Of the teams that have a very obvious quarterback need, I think the Cardinals are closest to being a compelling team. They have the least amount of work to do. You put Malik Willis into that situation with picking top five in this year's draft all the way through. I could get pretty excited about that. That's a pretty easy sell for me, especially if that includes a trade, Kyler going somewhere else, and you not only tidy that up, but free up the money.

18:39Robert Mays: hopefully that would come along with it and is there a tackle that's worth taking at three

18:43Derrik Klassen: if you're arizona offensive yeah worth i don't know about worth like there's a guy you could there are there are guys you could draft i think the name that i would say is spencer fano out of utah you'll see you'll see a lot of people talk about him i think um mel kuiper or one of the big draft experts had him going in the top five like that's perfectly justifiable um it's not he's not that caliber of offensive tackle where it's like slam dunk we feel amazing about this i think you'd you'd probably feel a little disappointed about the value that you're getting there but but that's the story of this draft class like it is not this blue chip filled top 10 and so take the best offensive tackle in the class i don't i don't think that would

19:29Robert Mays: be the end of the world at all all right guys before we move on let's take our first quick break

19:37Robert Mays: So let's just play this out one step further, because I'm curious how you feel about this. Let's say Malik Willis lands in Arizona. They managed to trade Kyler Murray. They've got, with a couple more cuts, 90-ish million dollars in cap space to play with. They draft a tackle in the top 10. They desperately need a right tackle. Jonah Williams is a free agent. Calvin Beecham is 58 years old. They still have Yelta Froholt. We have two guard needs. It's a good free agent class at guard. They'll have the money. Let's say they add two new starters at guard. Froholt, Paris Johnson, right tackle, pass catchers Malik Willis, Michael Fleur.

20:07Robert Mays: You're selling me.

20:08Dave Helman: I can start to buy it. I mean, I'll watch it. I'm not upset about that. Same as last year. It is all dependent on, like, how good can we make Marvin Harrison Jr.? Like, how good can we get him up to speed? Does that matter less because Michael Wilson is Randy Moss? Maybe. Maybe. I also, I do think the Michael Wilson thing is interesting because when he became Randy Moss, they used him like Randy Moss, where it's like, you're going to be our downfield guy. You're going to be running outside the numbers. You're going to be our deep contested guy, which they obviously wanted Marvin Harrison Jr. to be.

20:38Dave Helman: But if the new staff comes in and is like, listen, Michael Wilson is clearly better at this. We're going to use him for that. Marvin Harrison Jr. is going to be kind of our Z adjuster, an oversized version of that. And that's just how we're going to run the offense. I can start to buy it a little bit.

20:52Robert Mays: Man, I cannot believe it's February 26th and I'm starting to talk myself into the Arizona Cardinals again. Listen, embrace it.

20:58Dave Helman: Every now and then a team disappoints us, but is not actually as bad as they looked. And I do think the Cardinals are kind of undeniably true. There's always a team like that.

21:07Robert Mays: I was talking to somebody yesterday. They could no longer call up guys from the practice squad because they had exhausted the amount of roster spots they used over the course of the year. That's how injured the team was last year. I mean, it's that. And it's important to remember that. Like this was a team that absolutely were they disappointing 100 percent. They bottomed out in large part because they suffered a rash of injuries that you just the level to which you do not typically see in the NFL.

21:31Derrik Klassen: This is a little bit off topic. but I was thinking about this the other day. Remember the Thursday night Seahawks Cardinals game? I do. Yep. Just a fantastic Thursday night game. And like the Seahawks won and they looked good, but I would have never guessed that was going to be a team that dominated the Superbowl or the Cardinals bottom out that the Cardinals would be one of the

21:48Robert Mays: worst teams in the league. Like, it's crazy how much things change. Jumping off the Malik Willis stuff into the rest of the quarterback carousel here. We've talked a little bit about Kyle. Obviously we talked to Alec Lewis this week about the Viking situation and where Kyler might land. It sounds, you know, based on a lot of the rumblings that Minnesota is not going to be that assertive in the other quarterback option. They bring it that it's going to be something where they kind of wave at the idea of competition. But in reality, there's a chance they roll with JJ McCarthy. Again, there's a lot baked into why that might be the case.

22:23Robert Mays: We can talk about that if you guys want to, but I also think that makes a guy like Kyler, maybe a less likely answer for somebody like Minnesota. And so with Kyler specifically, that brings me to a place where I'm like, where does he make sense, right? If it's not a team like Minnesota, where would Kyler be the right answer?

22:40Derrik Klassen: Well, you know what's funny? And I listened, even when I'm overseas, I'm always watching. And I listen to the show that you did with Dan talking about like, oh, well, maybe like Mike LaFleur is there now, like between the contract and everything else, like maybe that's their best option. And maybe Kyler stays in Arizona and having been here for four days. So like I came to Indy with that on my mind, like, well, maybe he'll just stay. And after four days here, I'm just like, it's become, I don't think that's happening, man. So my answer to that three days ago would have been maybe the boring reality is reality is he just stays a Cardinal.

23:18Derrik Klassen: But that doesn't sound realistic. And if that's not the case, I really don't know the answer. I mean, I would love to throw out Pittsburgh, but everybody's just resigned to that being Aaron Rodgers. Maybe that's not true, but that's how it feels.

23:31Robert Mays: It's kind of weird. I mean, I'm looking at the quarterback depth charts right now. Like if you're trying to find a dance partner that makes a lot of sense, I really don't know who it would be.

23:40Dave Helman: I don't know who it's because like the like the Browns, it's going to be really difficult. And I also just wouldn't want to see Kyla Murray in a spot where like they have to refill literally all five starting offensive line spots like that. just seems like a waste of everybody's time. And then the Jets almost are, they probably make sense in terms of like who needs a quarterback, who has the money and resources to do it. They make a lot of sense. And the offensive line, I actually think, is pretty solid and has some pieces. The issue is like Frank Reich with Kyler Murray seems like a weird fit.

24:08Dave Helman: This is still a team that has like zero offensive weapons and maybe they can address that in the draft and free agency and stuff. But kind of until I see what the rest of the Jets roster looks like, I'm not sure how excited I can really get over that, but they realistically are probably the best spot. Cause like Colts, obviously, you know, they might need a quarterback, but they're, I don't think really have the resources to do all that. Miami's not going to be able to do it. It really is hard to find the spot unless you think Aaron Rogers is not going to come back and he's a stealer.

24:33Derrik Klassen: Let me ask you this. And I would go as far as to say, this is an insulting idea. Cause I fall along the same lines as you, where for all of his flaws, I think Kyler Murray is perfectly solid NFL quarterback. Does Kyler Murray have to wait for another chance to be a team starter? Like, is that not in the cards because of the league landscape? Well, I think that's going to depend on if he gets caught, then he can get signed to a backup contract.

24:56Robert Mays: This is to me, like what a team trade for the deal. And this is interesting. Like, so you look at the finances of it. And I think that you guys talking about the Kyler money versus the Malik Willis money, if it's going to be$30 million a year is actually a good way to think about it. So I think everybody's so scared of this 19 and a half million dollar base salary that Kyler has in 2027 that becomes guaranteed three days into the league year. Well, that's all you'd be on the hook for. He has a roster bonus.

25:19Derrik Klassen: It's not that scary.

25:21Robert Mays: Yes. It's just not. So it's the exact same thing we're talking about with Justin Fields. Justin Fields has$22 million in dead money if he gets cut this year. Kyler would be$19.5 if he gets cut after this year. If you're the Jets or a team like that, it's just like, who gives a shit?

25:34Dave Helman: The worst Kyler Murray is better than the best Justin Fields has ever been. You're not worried about that kind of money when it comes to something like that.

25:40Robert Mays: Maybe the Jets are in a position where, again, you don't want to eat$22 for Fields this year and$19 for Kyler next year. You're starting to rob Peter to pay Paul. But again, if you look at the Justin Fields contract and it's no worse than what you'd have to take on for Kyler Murray. And we've seen Kyler Murray play at a much higher level.

25:57Derrik Klassen: I'm it's impossible to know until we know what happens. But like I will I'll be buying stock in Kyler's next stop. Like I'm not ready to give up on him as a viable NFL starter at all.

26:11Robert Mays: Let me look at look at Miami's finances and just see like what we're talking about here.

26:15Dave Helman: If he does get cut, it starts to open up the avenue for a lot of other teams. Because I do think he might be more willing to sign for something a little bit less like what teams would be on the hook for now. But if it's a trade, it's kind of it's hard to find a spot other than New York or maybe Pittsburgh.

26:30Derrik Klassen: And even then, doesn't Mike McCarthy and Kyler Murray sound weird? You see that I'm glad Robert. I'm glad Robert's doing this. So if he's Robert's looking at the to a contract and then well, then the Dolphins salary cap. It's criminal. So if you think the Kyler Murray contract is scary, go look at the Dolphins finances. It's so bad.

26:49Robert Mays: I'm just playing around with over the cap as you guys are talking. If he even if he was a post June one cut, even if you do that, you still lose 11 million dollars in cap space.

26:59Derrik Klassen: There's nothing that's there's no nice way out of this. It's really rough.

27:04Robert Mays: It's really rough. And I'm playing with it right now. So right now, as it currently stands, even without the Tua contract, the Dolphins have$74 million in dead money on their books. What? Yes. It's the Tyree Kill, Jalen Ramsey, Teron Armstead. It's when you do what the Dolphins did from a draft pick, from a draft capital perspective and leveraging your finances the way they did when you're trying to maximize these windows, the end is going to be f***ing messy. And that's exactly where the Dolphins sit right now. And that's why I think they're a hard team to figure out.

27:36Derrik Klassen: I don't really blame them for the record. Kind of the same thing we were saying about the Titans. I understand why it happens. They tried, and they failed spectacularly, but it's better than not trying at all, in my opinion.

27:50Robert Mays: The other guy in Arizona that I actually, the Jets, I think, could go one or two different ways. And we were talking about this when we were just discussing big offseason questions where it's like, okay, do you want a potential multi-year quarterback solution? Or do you just want like, eh, we'll figure it out for a year, and then we'll actually address it in 2027. Jacoby percent for the Jets is like, I think it legitimately makes sense. You have the history with Frank Reich. And what I like about Jacoby percent is that he is the, my concern when you hand wave your quarterback position for a year is that you get so bad that you can't evaluate the rest of the roster.

28:28Robert Mays: Jacoby percent will throw the shit out of the ball for 17 games. Sure will. Like he, he will give you enough where I think you can stay afloat. and you be your real team. And so that's why that one for me, it's like you're a rebuilding team, notoriously good dude, good locker room guy, like making a few million bucks a year, throw them a late round draft pick, just see how it goes. Like Jacoby Percet with the Jets, I do think there's a lot of boxes that checks.

28:52Dave Helman: If I'm the Vikings, like if you're not going to be an aggressive at the quarterback market and trying to just get a guy who can kind of compete, I would want a Jacoby Percet because I think that's a good benchmark for JJ McCarthy. Like if you can't be better than Jacoby Percet, we've got a problem here.

29:04Derrik Klassen: Are we okay with the Vikings not being at least somewhat aggressive about their quarterback issue? Here's why I think this is potentially okay.

29:17Robert Mays: What is the best case scenario if you go out and you get aggressive with a guy like Kyler Murray? Do you think that you're a Super Bowl team with Kyler Murray as your quarterback? I think you can be. You think so?

29:27Dave Helman: I don't think, I'm not like picking them to win the NFC, but I can at least like see a viable path. Like we can be the two seed in the NFC. We can win 13 games. And if Kyler gets hot three times in a row, we actually have a shot. I know that it's dangerous to look at it this way. It is. But there's definitely a way they went eight games and it blows up.

29:46Derrik Klassen: We're a year removed from Darnold doing what he like.

29:50Dave Helman: We're like a month. We're a month from Darnold doing it.

29:54Derrik Klassen: We're a year removed from the Darnold deal. And everybody being like.

29:58Robert Mays: Is Kyler Murray as good as Sam Darnold?

29:59Derrik Klassen: Yes. That sounds like I think he has the potential to be as good as Sam Darnold. Yeah, like it sounds silly considering everything Sam just did, but we didn't feel that way about Sam a year ago either. Sam Darnold played like two good games from November and on. Played the game of his life.

30:15Dave Helman: He played the game of his life in the NFC title game, to be fair. But that's kind of the point is that a quarterback of this caliber, if he can just get hot at the right time, the rest of the Vikings roster right now is good enough for that.

30:25Derrik Klassen: If Sam Darnold is worth taking that chance on, And it's obviously a little bit different because Sam was a free agent and you don't have to potentially trade for him. But like, I'll take that chance on Kyler Murray, too. Absolutely. Like, I think it could be similarly rewarding, especially on a team that's already got a really nice roster.

30:42Dave Helman: I would feel worse. It's a good argument. I'll hear that argument. I would feel worse having this roster and not giving ourselves the best chance.

30:49Derrik Klassen: Even if it blows up and we nuke ourselves in two years, I would feel really bad about not giving this roster the best chance. Hoping that it's better than awful. again, it just doesn't sit right with me. Like considering we had 10 games of, of what JJ McCarthy was. And that's not to say that he can't be a better player, but just like hoping that it won't be as bad as it was last time. That that doesn't sit well with me when, when Justin Jefferson has already been in the league for six years.

31:19Robert Mays: And that, that's argued, that argument, the Justin Jefferson part of this to me is the most compelling reason. Because it's like, that's the issue is that it's, I think there are two different arguments that you could make about this. I think that trying to scramble to get the most out of this aging roster and saying, like, we have to do everything we can to make sure 2026 is maximized because the rest of the roster is aging. I think you can make mistakes thinking that way. Yes. But at the same time, I think that rolling with the exact same, if you roll with JJ again, and it's the same sort of issues again, what that does to a Justin Jefferson, the erosion that happens like with the culture and everything else in the building, that to me is even if it can be misguided to have that level of urgency to maximize this year, the downside of allowing it to play out again and having this further rot with everything else, I think that's also real.

32:13Robert Mays: you're damned if you do damned if you don't like that's that's the problem here that that is the

32:17Dave Helman: thing like there's a more likely than not neither of these options work out for them being like a serious super bowl contender but like i to me like at least going after a guy like kyler murray not running it back with jj mccarthy it like replenishes the buy-in if that makes sense and i think that that is kind of important especially when we're kevin o 'connell's been there a long time like at this point in like a coach's tenure that you kind of need to find ways to be able to do that unless you already have the elite quarterback there to kind of facilitate that and they obviously don't and so i think this is kind of a good way to do that i have one more suggestion for you let's hear

32:48Robert Mays: it anthony richardson oh i'm if i'm willing to listen because as of yesterday yes reports uh both sides have come to a place where they're going to allow him to seek a trade and so i don't know is that actually the most exciting compelling option for the vikings do you need me to pull up

33:04Derrik Klassen: the clip of kevin o 'connell telling anthony richardson to remember that he's a bad mfer uh no i'm it's funny because i i was not i was not bought in on anthony richardson the prospect because of the small amount of games and the inconsistency and i thought that all got carried away but once you're here and the price to acquire him is not going to be high and again if it's an accomplished offensive head coach like kevin o 'connell with a roster that can put him in good positions i don't want to get too far out ahead of myself but like even if i didn't love him as a prospect that's very intriguing to me the flip side of that though is and i mean anthony richardson is so freakishly talented but like isn't isn't that what you have already you're like oh this guy's talented and could be good but he hasn't shown it yet i mean we already we already got him

33:56Dave Helman: on the roster i will say it makes the competition more interesting to me than with a veteran because this is like a true like even terms competition where it's two young guys who have not played a lot of football together they're both kind of talented i've never put it together have often been injured and i think it would be fun to like see which of those two kind of comes out on top my thing with anthony richardson everyone with the draft and with the rams having an extra first round pick are like oh they're going to spend it on the quarterback they need these contingency plans why not trade for an anthony richardson yeah i'm kind of into that one like that's where

34:26Robert Mays: i'm looking at it from that's actually i actually do like that like they're in a position where if They just want to like take the dice roll. And if he sucks, who cares? A couple other quarterback names to throw out. Matt Jones, just based on everybody I've talked to this week, it's just like, it's going to be too pricey to get Matt Jones out of San Francisco. And it's, I mean, it sounds like we're talking like a second round pick and change because of how cheap he is. And I think that's part of it is that like when you cut the combination of young and cost controlled is just, his price is going to be at a place where I don't know if teams are going to be willing to pay it, even if they're desperate in the Mac Jones mold.

34:58Robert Mays: like, well, how many years ago was it where like, everyone was like, how many Kirks are you? Remember, remember like that version of quarterback discourse? Matt Jones is like somewhere on the Kirk timeline. And so Kirk also released where Kirk ends up again. We just talked about, is there a landing spot for Kyler Murray? Like is, is, does Kirk want to go to Cleveland? I sincerely doubt that like, is it currently stands? If you look at it, it's not going to be Minnesota, which obviously comes with a million different complications and that's why i think it might not happen it kind of seems like kirk might be destined for like very high end um we're protecting ourselves backup status in this cycle even if it is a down year contender backup yes right like doesn't that make sense yeah like it's i the kirk is the type of quarterback the colts should have tried to have behind daniel jones in the back half of last season i just want to say one more time

35:51Derrik Klassen: it's frustrating for me that I don't want to act like it's this cure-all that would solve your quarterback issues for the next decade but there are intriguing options out there for the Pittsburgh Steelers but it doesn't sound like they're interested in any of it and maybe that's wrong, maybe we'll see maybe they've got more up their sleeve than just reuniting with Aaron Rodgers but doesn't seem like it. Exactly that's disappointing to me if like you know you you could do things to to upgrade the talent there get younger get more talented give yourself some upside and it doesn't sound like they're interested my approach to the Aaron

36:29Robert Mays: Rogers in Pittsburgh situation and Omar Khan came out this week and said there's no deadline but he doesn't foresee it going as late as it did last year um I'm gonna spend no time or energy talking or thinking about this until we have clarity what whether it is or isn't Aaron Rogers yes if it's not tell me if it is tell me until then i'm not going to spend a single second thinking about it

36:51Dave Helman: especially now that we've already seen what it looks like at least last year when he was kind of doing this dance it was like you know maybe we'll see what he looks like at a new team we've already seen what he looks like with the steelers i don't really care anymore we're going to take our

37:02Robert Mays: second break here and then come back and chat a little non-quarterback combine news

37:11Robert Mays: dave we're at the combine so it's time to talk about dallas cowboys contract drama Oh, man. The Cowboys are tagging George Pickens. Jerry did his. Are you happy or sad that you no longer have to do the Jerry Combine gaggle?

37:26Derrik Klassen: A little bit of both. It's the only proper response. It's fun, and it's a whole spectacle. Where does he do it? On the bus? Jerry has his bus driven up to Indy, and usually on— Actually, I don't think he's done it yet, for the record. Oh, yeah, he hasn't. I don't believe so. So he usually will have the bus pull up next to the stadium on Saturday afternoon, and he'll come down from drills and sit on there for 50, 60 minutes. How many seats are on the bus? The bus can seat. There's a couch. There's a couple of, like, captain's chairs. Like, it can seat, like, seven guys. So it'll be, like, there's two newspapers in Dallas.

38:07Derrik Klassen: The team website will be there. John, our guy with the athletic, will be there as well. So, yeah, it's like seven reporters that get to go on.

38:15Robert Mays: Well, why it matters less is because let's say for a lot of these teams, right, like just like to peek behind the curtain for people who don't really understand some of this stuff. Like so a lot of teams will do this where they will have off the record either conversations or even dinners with the local media. And it's hugely valuable because you don't really get that sort of time during the season. There are some teams Dallas was like this. Jason Garrett used to do this where he would do an off the record session with reporters like weekly. Right. And so that that's not really normal. So for a lot of press corps, when you go to the combine, having that hour of off-the-record conversation with the head coach or the general manager is as valuable as anything you're going to do all year.

38:52Robert Mays: One of the reasons that it's not quite as important what Jerry is, he talks every day. Yes.

38:58Derrik Klassen: So the scarcity doesn't really matter with Jerry Jones. Jerry hasn't done his annual combine thing, but we still have quotes from him talking about what he's going to do. That's exactly right. He talks. It's all right. We don't need to get inside baseball with beat coverage. But when I covered the Cowboys, every time you would come to something like this, other beat writers would inevitably be like, oh, you're so lucky. Your general manager talks all the time and you just have all this content. And I was like, yeah, he talks all the time. It sucks. I want to cover a team where the general manager disappears for three months and I can take some vacation.

39:31Derrik Klassen: Good Lord.

39:31Robert Mays: Yeah, he's talking constantly. That's why I assumed he had already done it, because he came out and told reporters that they're going to restructure all these contracts. And so they tagged George Pickens,$28 million, even after tagging him. What Jerry said was, it sounds like they're going to restructure Dak, they're going to restructure CeeDee and maybe Tyler Smith. So if you look at the numbers financially for Dallas, if they restructure all those guys and they cut Kenny Clark, that's$35 million in cap space. And so that gives you at least some financial flexibility, even with some of those bigger deals on the books and the Pickens tag to try to add a couple pieces to your defense here.

40:07Robert Mays: And that's that that's what has to happen.

40:09Derrik Klassen: My inkling from being here. I don't I don't think they want to cut Kenny, but they got to get that number down. Yeah, they do something. It's not that he's a bad player.

40:17Robert Mays: It's exactly right. And so it's when you're looking at it, when you can free up twenty one million dollars in cash space to move on from him, that's two starters. And so you can't justify that level And especially when you already have Osa And you already have Quentin Williams on the roster Being able, if you cut Kenny Clark That's a linebacker and a safety So it's just about opportunity cost It has nothing to do with the quality of Kenny Clark's play

40:39Derrik Klassen: I think they're going to try to get something Renegotiated with him And if they can't, then yeah Do what you have to do But I mean, we did this on the biggest questions Of the offseason show It's all there for the Cowboys Like once you process the Micah Parsons trade and whether you agree with it or not, what's done is done. The resources are there. They have all the money they could possibly want to do whatever it is they think they need to. They have two first round picks. And I'll just steal your line about not caring what the Steelers do. Show me. I don't care. Do something. Do anything. And it's already frustrating because it sounds like we're going to do the Pickens dance for at least a little while.

41:22Derrik Klassen: hopefully it doesn't extend into the summer but based on their history i can't say i'm optimistic

41:27Robert Mays: but here's the difference with me in dallas and pittsburgh from a player acquisition standpoint 100 show me until it happens like i'm not going to spend a lot of time talking or thinking about it the fact that the cowboys moved on from the static kind of stayed world of mike mccarthy and the steelers are stepping into it that's what creates the intrigue around the cowboys for me and that's why I will be more excited about them than is probably justified.

41:50Derrik Klassen: I agree with you. The thing is, is I've done this before and I know like we love the Christian Parker hire. The, the, the Cowboys staff is it's young and energetic. It's been in a very, very long time. I agree with that. It still requires the people in charge of the purse strings changing the way that they've approached off seasons for 12 years at this point.

42:12Robert Mays: And so they seem willing to restructure all these deals though is like that's a level of financial aggression that they have not shown in a while i want to believe like it let's be clear i want david's like we need to cross the finish line

42:25Dave Helman: before i'm even thinking about the race i want this is a broken beaten down man he's seen too

42:30Derrik Klassen: much because we're gonna do this we're gonna we're gonna get all excited like oh they freed up all this money they're gonna get aggressive they have these draft picks and then uh free agency We did like the legal tampering. We're able to do deals on like Monday.

42:44Robert Mays: And we'll be live for five hours, buddy. I can't wait.

42:46Derrik Klassen: You'll be ready for that. And I can't wait for Monday afternoon to roll around. And like, it's just crickets on the Cowboys front while the first tier of free agents fly off the board. They're going to sign a$4 million linebacker and that'll be it.

42:57Robert Mays: That's okay to me. Like, I don't need them to be shopping at the top of the market. Like they're a team that they need a safety. They need linebackers. They need edge depth. If they solve that with a lot of mid-tier free agents and two first-round draft picks, that's an acceptable solution to me.

43:12Derrik Klassen: You are right. And no, I don't need them to do anything insane. But all right, let me rephrase. It won't be Monday. I need them to have done some things by like Wednesday afternoon.

43:22Robert Mays: That's fine. Okay. And they don't do that. They usually. That's true. It's May before they do that stuff.

43:28Derrik Klassen: 12 days after free agency starts and they're like, all right, we're ready to do some shopping. Start rubbing their hands together. Cool. Can I interest you in a lightly used Kenneth Murray Jr.? one thing I want to flow to you guys

43:39Robert Mays: I'm just curious how you think about this tagging Pickens let's just say hypothetically you get a call from a wide receiver needy team we'll give you a one and a three for George Pickens do you do that if you're Dallas

43:55Dave Helman: how good are the receivers this year

43:57Derrik Klassen: a one in this year's draft I'm not that's a nice price but I don't think I'm interested there are good receivers in this draft They're always going to be good receivers with the way the game is now. I think Dane's top 100 has 17 of them. So like there's talent, but I think I, George Pickens is 25, by the way. He's not yet 25. He turns 25 sometime in March. I think, I think I'll just take the 25 year old who just did what he did. And that's, that's what frustrates me with where the Cowboys currently are. And like, that's, people have talked about that. I saw there have been like proposed trades of like Max Crosby and a, and a two for George.

44:37Derrik Klassen: So something like that,

44:38Robert Mays: I think is that that that's maybe even more creative than just another first round pick thrown onto the pile. I just,

44:45Derrik Klassen: the offense was already like one of the best in football. It really was. And to know that you have that and to know that Dak Prescott is closer to the end of his prime than the beginning at this point, I just, I'd rather try to maximize that window with this collection of talent. You have two first round picks. If you do your job well, and Dallas hasn't been drafting quite as well as their reputation suggests the last like two or three years. But if they hit on these picks, like you could be you could be cooking with gas really quickly. And I think I'd rather just not get too cute because I was that impressed by what their offense was.

45:22Derrik Klassen: All right. So let's do this one.

45:25Robert Mays: Would you use one of those first round picks to trade for Max Crosby? if it was a first round pick and change.

45:30Dave Helman: But I can keep George Pickens.

45:31Derrik Klassen: Yes. Yes. Yes. If I get to keep Pickens and I'm only giving up one of the ones, yes, I would do that.

45:39Robert Mays: Max Crosby right now, and this is why it's a little bit different than the Micah contract would have been in large part because the Micah contract, if you had spent a ton of cash on that deal last year, the Max Crosby deal, he's obviously on an extension. It's$30 million in base salary in 2026, but the cash just would not be nearly to the same level. And if you wanted to restructure that deal to give you some flexibility against the cap, you could. And so I'm sure some people would be like, well, you just didn't do the Micah thing. Why would you pay Max Crosby? There are enough differences and nuances to that where I could understand wanting to go down that road.

46:12Derrik Klassen: I mean, if you come out of all of this and the upshot is you have a couple more big-time draft selections than you would have, and Quinn and Williams and Max Crosby are under contract with the Cowboys and George Pickens is here, it's way too soon to declare winners and losers. But if that was the upshot, I'd feel pretty solid about it.

46:35Robert Mays: Anybody else on the Max Crosby horizon that you've been thinking about when it comes to team fits?

46:43Dave Helman: I threw out the Rams because they have all the picks, and I think that's crazy. There are too many as Roger Scott. Where is he playing? He's better than everyone they have except Jared Burst. What do you mean, where is he playing?

46:54Robert Mays: What are the snap counts on that team? My God. How much math have you done, Scott, about figuring out if the Bears can fit Max Crosby into the cap?

47:01Derrik Klassen: I'll make it work.

47:02Robert Mays: Yeah. It's tough because I was talking about this yesterday on Chicago Radio, but the Bears right now, as it currently stands, have the fifth highest number allocated to edge rushers against the cap of any team in the league. With Dio Bangbo. That's not a great place to be It's depressing as shit.

47:20Dave Helman: They probably have the worst dollar per sack in the NFL.

47:26Robert Mays: It's a tough situation. So would I love to see Max Crosby on the Bears? Yes, but I just think when you think about the resource allocation and everything else, it's just hard to pull that off. So we'll see. The other team I keep coming back to is just San Francisco. San Francisco.

47:41Derrik Klassen: Yeah.

47:42Robert Mays: I just think if you look at – Can they make it work money-wise? I think they can. I think they can. And then so the other bit of San Francisco news that's worth talking about, The Trent Williams stuff where it seems like they're trying to get his number down. I think Barnwell did a really good job of this. Like there are some levers that they can pull and there's some leverage ploys that San Francisco has to try to convince him to push that down. So that's just something to keep an eye on is like what happens overall with the Trent Williams money situation with the Niners as well.

48:08Derrik Klassen: I do like and the Cowboys are always going to dominate those sorts of conversations because of who they are. but outside like the the handful of teams where i really feel like it makes a lot of sense for max crosby it's just it's not as big as i would have guessed it's just a big price yeah i mean it's

48:24Robert Mays: just a big price i think that they're and honestly i think that fewer teams have the appetite for those sorts of deals when you just consider like the history of them and the downside of them all of it the other guy who has been in a ton of trade conversations and i think this is one where it is worth paying a lot of attention to it for a bunch of different reasons is A.J. Brown, right? So it seems like in talking to folks here, it's very possible that we're headed for a divorce with A.J. Brown and the Eagles. And this has more to do with A.J. Brown's desire to move on than the Eagles thinking that they'd be a better football team without A.J.

48:56Robert Mays: Brown. But talking to people last night, it just seems like we've kind of reached the end of the road with this thing, with like him wanting to be there. When you think about the quality of the quarterback play, all the turnover on offense, et cetera. The price for A.J. Brown, where Max Crosby would be a one and change, right? I think when you think about positionally, age, all of that kind of stuff. I think A.J. Brown for like a two and some scraps is possible. So A.J. Brown right now. He's 20. He turns 29 this summer. He turns 29 this summer with receivers. The age curve is a little bit different.

49:31Robert Mays: Especially one like him where it's like pure explosiveness.

49:34Dave Helman: And power, right? It's been hard on his body. It reminds me of like Des Bryant, where like when it goes, it's gone. Yeah. So I think that's absolutely a consideration. That hurt my feelings. I'm sorry.

49:45Robert Mays: I spent a lot of time looking at and studying this. And I love AJ. I don't want AJ to like go over a cliff like that. I spent a lot of time looking at and studying this over the last day because it's impossible to know the finances for the Philadelphia Eagles. He has a minimum base salary, which every guy in the Eagles does. $27.5 million option bonus for AJ Brown this year. So if you are the acquiring team, you have one of two options. You can not execute the option. You can pay him$28 million against the cap this year, and then you have flexibility beyond 2026. Or you can execute the option bonus in the same way the Eagles would.

50:20Robert Mays: And if you want to and you want to play the financial game the exact same way the Eagles were, where you just take on the contract and you execute the option bonuses in the same way Philadelphia would have, You can get A.J. Brown for minuscule cap hits over the next two years. You're pushing into future years. So when I look at that and I think about the financial levers needing to be pulled, the price that it would require, and the team that needs a player like this, it's Buffalo.

50:48Dave Helman: It has to be.

50:49Robert Mays: It's just they don't have a lot of flexibility. They need this exact skill set. I think based on through the grapevine stuff, he'd be open to playing there or might want to play there. that's the one where on June 2nd if I'm the Bills I just think if it's on the table it's a move that

51:06Derrik Klassen: you almost have to make do you think I mean actually Howie's probably the perfect guy for that because typically when we're when you're talking about trades of that magnitude the team trading the player wants to pick before the draft but like the Eagles are so good at stockpiling

51:22Robert Mays: things and getting ahead of things they also the money just doesn't make sense like they're trading him before June 1st, the dead money you'd have to take on, it's almost a non-starter. But trading him after June 1, it's

51:32Derrik Klassen: absolutely something you could do. I do wonder how that affects the price, though. Two and change makes sense, but if you're not getting him in this year's draft...

51:40Robert Mays: Until the next draft, yeah. Two and change is maybe the price you'd have to give up for a normal team. I'm sure with the Eagles there would be 20 picks involved and it'll be future years and it'll be this and it'll be that. But I think when you think about the finances, the price tag, everything else if the Eagles decide they are going to move on I still just come back to Buffalo being the team that makes the most sense anything else from this week that we have not hit that you guys feel like has been at front of mind for you over the last 72 hours or so to me some of the play calling

52:10Dave Helman: news I think is kind of interesting just in terms of who's taking it on like I think the the Sean Payton giving it up to Davis Webb one is interesting insofar as like Sean Payton has never done that but it's not that interesting insofar as the only way to keep him on the staff was to basically let him call plays. So it's like, I get how we arrive here. Dave Canales giving it up to Brad Idzik is more interesting to me because I don't think that that's really like a point of contention for, like, I mean, maybe they were worried about Brad Idzik moving on. But I think it's interesting that Canales, like, even talked about, like, I want to be able to do more of the head coaching job and not just call plays, which I totally get.

52:47Dave Helman: Like, he got the job as a play caller. But I think if you're going to grow in this league and be, you know, do this until you're 55, 60 years old, you probably do want to be able to get better at a little bit of overseeing and things and so i think it's kind of interesting that he's already wanting to take this step and give it to idzik who obviously he was familiar with and worked with in tampa bay and seattle i mean those guys have

53:05Robert Mays: known each other forever forever they go way way back brad and dave do and i think this is something that they were dancing around last year i think that during the summer i think that there were some like initial conversations about whether that's something they'd want to eventually explore they didn't end up doing it last season. I think, Brett, I think it's a called it a little bit during the preseason. And so I think that the wheels were in motion about this a while ago. This is not something that I think they just came to at the end of this season. It's not a snap decision. No, it is not.

53:33Robert Mays: I think it's something that they had been kicking around back and forth and they just decided to let Canales call it for this year. But when I saw that, it was not surprising based on just conversations I had had when I was there for training camp last year. That's what I would say. It's not a reactionary thing.

53:46Dave Helman: Okay, yeah, and I didn't imagine necessarily to be a reaction or anything like, oh my God, like we've got to panic and do something. I just found it interesting that usually when the head coach is your play caller, they don't give it up like the offensive guys. Sometimes we've seen more that defensive guys are a little bit more willing to give it up, but the offensive guys are usually like, this is my baby. I'm going to do this. I'm not going to give this up.

54:07Derrik Klassen: Giving up play calling is usually the last thing you do before you get fired or if you're trying to keep that from being the next story.

54:12Dave Helman: That's why it's interesting because I don't really imagine that being the case with Dave Canales. No, I don't like you just like scooted into the playoffs in a way that you shouldn't. It's interesting.

54:19Robert Mays: I'd be curious to talk to him about this. But it's funny. I was talking to somebody about this today where obviously the the pathway to head coaching opportunities is extremely different when you are a play calling head coach and when you're a non play calling head coach. So let's just look at this cycle, for example. You had non play calling offensive coordinators get head coaching jobs. It was the Cardinals job, right? It's just the types of job. And think about the guys who, you know, Todd Monken is in a different sort of situation, right? Todd's a little bit older, all of that. But the other guys who were interviewing for the Browns head coaching job that were finalists for that job, they were offensive assistants who were not play callers.

54:56Robert Mays: So if you are not a play calling offensive coordinator, you can get head coaching opportunities. You're just getting head coaching opportunities that are probably a rung or two further down that you want them to. And so some head coaches who are play callers, in order to give guys pathways to better head coaching jobs, they're like, hey, you can go be a play caller somewhere else. I won't block that. If they're going to give you the opportunity, I'll let you do it. It almost seems like Canalis has just done it in-house, where it's like, in order to give you a better opportunity, I'm just going to let you do it here rather than you taking it somewhere else.

55:28Robert Mays: I don't think that was imminent, but I think that's just kind of a nod to a guy to maybe give him a better chance as he moves forward in his career.

55:35Derrik Klassen: And that was my big takeaway, similarly to the Davis Webb news. Not that it's surprising, but it was just further confirmation of what we were guessing based on how much interest he was getting in the hiring cycle. Because I think like the average NFL fan, I mean, Davis Webb was he was drafted highly. He's a quarterback. I think people were aware of him. But the amount of interest that he drew, I think, opened a lot of people's eyes. And then for Sean Payton to give him play calling, it just further cements for me like, OK, this guy, if he's not a rock star yet, he's about to be a rock star. And like I would imagine I hesitate to compare him to your guy, Ben, but he's going to be that sort of candidate, though.

56:16Derrik Klassen: Like now, like that's the only way you become that sort of candidate is if you're calling. Absolutely.

56:20Robert Mays: And that's part of it.

56:22Derrik Klassen: You know, when you build up is different than when you're the play caller as recent, like as soon as assuming, you know, The Broncos look like they're going to be very good, assuming everything stays on track. This season, and Ben obviously had multiple offers and decided to stay in Detroit for the extra year. So over the next year or two, I really feel like Davis Webb is going to have the opportunity to rise to that level of candidate where teams are just throwing the checkbook at him when he's ready to take a head coaching job.

56:52Robert Mays: The only difference, and there are several differences, but I think the most important difference is the Panthers won. and this is outside looking and no inside information. That one seems very clean and amicable. That Broncos one seems messier.

57:08Derrik Klassen: That's what makes it interesting to me. It is great if a head coach wants to do that, but I would have guessed you'd have to pry play calling out of Sean Payton's cold, dead hands.

57:20Robert Mays: Based on my understanding, and this has been reported, he was considering doing it even in season. It seems like he was okay seeding it, but you had to fire an offensive coordinator to get to this place. So it just seems like overall the dynamics at play with the Denver situation, again, just a tiny bit messier than what we're talking about with Carolina. All right. That is all we've got for today. The next show on this feed will be coming to you guys on Monday. We've got a little combine recap. We're doing an early release for building the beast next week.

57:56Derrik Klassen: I can't wait. Dane has been ping-ponging around this building for the last four days, getting hand measurements. He's learning about which high school guys transferred to, and we're going to have it all. It's going to be awesome. As we're sitting here recording, I can see the drills have started. Dane's probably like— Oh, his guy Caleb Banks? Oh, Caleb Banks. Oh, man.

58:20Robert Mays: Dane is watching Caleb Banks around the 40 right now, just salivating.

58:24Derrik Klassen: Dane is like somewhere on that 40 line. Wait, this is actually riveting TV. Caleb Banks is the man.

58:31Robert Mays: All right, so let's see how this goes. 6 '6 and a quarter, 327. Caleb Banks, defensive lineman from Florida.

58:36Dave Helman: Oh, false start. Well, it's just a terrible podcast. Now we got to cut it off.

58:41Robert Mays: So Monday, combine recap, Dave and Dane. Tuesday, we're going to be doing a free agency themed mailbag on the show. So another mailbag, we're going to be doing them weekly during the offseason, other than select weeks like free agency week. But we love doing them. We're happy to be doing them. This one's going to be free agency themed. So if you're listening to this on Friday, start sending in your questions, athleticfootballshow at gmail.com. We would love to hear from you. For now, that's all we got. I appreciate you guys listening. Dave and Dan, I'll talk to you on Monday.