The league's most cursed franchise, the determiners of floor and ceiling, the merits of Zac Taylor, and more in our final mailbag of the offseason

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2:02Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's the final mailbag of the summer. I'm back from vacation, moving this to Friday because we've got some other stuff we wanted to run a little bit earlier this week, but really enjoyed digging into our last mailbag with Derek Klassen and Michael Beller. Sincerely appreciate everyone who took the time to send in questions. Let's get to that discussion right now.

2:28Robert Mays: It's not Monday, but it is mailbag day here on the athletic football show. And it is the last mailbag of the 2025 off season. We're going to be releasing this, I believe on Friday, and I'm going to be leaving on my training camp travels tomorrow. I'm going to be at a training camp practice on Sunday. So the offseason, as we define it here, Derek, on the athletic football show is over. We are ramping up toward the season and it flew by and I'm not going to complain about that. I am very, very excited to be around some actual football and some actual football conversations again. You know what? If you asked me that like a week and a half ago, I don't think I would have agreed.

3:08I think I would have been like, no, I'm very much like still feel like we're good without football. But it was literally like two days ago. I was like, man, I'm kind of itching a little bit like I'm kind of itching to get some real football again. So the fact that we're here, the fact that training camp is here and I feel like the mailbag now is like it literally is like the perfect. When we're done with the mailbag, we're into the new season. Like it's like a literal perfect cutoff for to get into a new era of work again.

3:36Robert Mays: no more mailbags beller which means you won't be able to read the mailbag questions here for the rest of the off season as we get into the regular season but i've enjoyed doing these and i think that people have enjoyed you and your sultry tones asking us the questions you know about 10 minutes ago as i was coming back into my office to get this role and i said to my wife like last one gonna have to put the pipes back into mothballs for the rest of the 2025 calendar year but it has been a lot of fun i've really enjoyed being a part of it and i'm right there with you guys. So pumped, so pumped that we are at this point of the calendar when the football season really feels like it's coming back to us.

4:11Robert Mays: Yeah, I'll be in Detroit this weekend. Sunday is my first camp practice, and then we'll be around for the next few weeks. And we're still going to have four shows a week as we move through training camp. Things are going to look a little bit different just because I'm going to be on the road, but we will address that here very soon in terms of how the show in general is going to look over the next several months. We are very excited about a lot of the stuff we have on the horizon, but let's close the door here. Let's turn the page. Let's finish this chapter of the 2025 offseason and get to our last mailbag of the summer.

4:42Robert Mays: Beller, let's get to it. All right. Noah Klein has the first question for us, and he says, what components specifically determine a team's floor and ceiling? Not something like elite quarterback play that obviously affects both at a high level, but more specific aspects of a team coaching staff that have the most direct impact on a team's floor or ceiling. Derek, I'm going to let you take this one first because he mentions a recent episode where that brought this question to him, where you said that the Packers have a higher ceiling, but a lower floor than the Lions. What leads specifically to a take like that?

5:13Yeah, so I kind of want to attack it from the angle of these two teams specifically. I think when I'm considering the floor for the Lions, one, it's Dan Campbell. Like, I think having a head coach, one of that quality, but also like the style that Dan Campbell is, where he I think is a little bit more of the CEO type. Obviously, he's involved in the offense a little bit, but also just like the energy he gets those guys to play with, that sort of thing. I think that is a high floor type of thing. Like when I think of guys like that, it's Mike Tomlin. It's John Harbaugh is like this. And so I think that's where you get some of the floor element.

5:45And then I think Jared Goff, it's not a. It's not a quality thing with the quarterback thing so much for me, it's like a style of play like Jared Goff is a calculated, consistent. You know what you're getting every single play, every single drive type of quarterback. And there's value in that. But that to me is more of like a floor raising thing. And then when I think of the ceiling, like Jordan loves creativity, his aggressiveness, his like wild boy tendencies in and outside of the pocket, lend a little bit more to the hot streaks that I think can lead to high ceiling stuff. And then to me, the last element of it was just the coordinator stuff.

6:17Like I think when you have Matt LaFleur, who has been calling the offense for a while now, going into year three with Jordan Love, you can just find more nooks and crannies within the offense and within the system when you've been doing it for longer. And I think that you can reach higher heights that way. Obviously, now you're also moving into year two at Jeff Halfley. So I think they can reach something else there. Whereas with the Lions, you're replacing two of the best coordinators in the league on both sides of the ball. And I just feel like it's going to be hard to tap into like top five offense and defense when you just have so much changing on that side.

6:48Robert Mays: So outside of the quarterback, are there any aspects of the roster in Green Bay that you think give them a higher ceiling than the lions? Because the fact that you think and have said this is interesting to me outside of the quarterback. Is there anything inherent about how the Packers are built that you think gives them a higher ceiling than the lions? I really think it's just like, I guess the style of play on offense, like the fact that they are so dead set on, like, we're just chucking it down the field all of the time. And again, part of that is explosiveness. It's, it's the explosiveness.

7:19And part of that is, again, it goes back to the quarterback, right? Like maybe Matt Lafleur wouldn't call the offense like that. if Jordan Love wasn't the quarterback. But the reality is Jordan Love is the quarterback and that's the way they want to play. And then even they go out in the draft this year and they draft Matthew Golden, who is a guy who is going to help you downfield a little bit. So I think it to me, it was a lot of just like style of play. Whereas with the Lions, and again, this goes back to the quarterback thing. Jared Goff has never been a quarterback that throws down the field.

7:43Like he didn't do it that much in LA and he doesn't really do it in Detroit. And I would be kind of shocked if that changes that much this year.

7:50Robert Mays: For me, if I'm looking outside of the quarterback, it's a good question. because I think we almost inherently and just automatically equate ceiling with how good the quarterback is and how dynamic the quarterback is. The area of this I've always kind of come to, and I think we've said this a decent amount over the last several years, I think offensive line quality sets the floor to a certain extent. And when I say that, I think if you have a good offensive line or a good system along the offensive line when it comes to pass protection, it's really hard to bottom out if you have good pass protection.

8:21Robert Mays: You can be fine and functional as an offense, but if you look at the teams that have really bottomed out over the last couple years, talking about the Bears last year for stretches, what the Seahawks looked like at times, what the Texans looked like at times, that was a pass protection issue overall. So I think the quality of the offensive line, but also the quality of your pass protection plan, in a lot of ways will set the floor for what your offense is going to be. And the flip side of that, I think that the weapons often set the ceiling for what your offense is going to be. The perfect example of this to me is like the Broncos from last year.

8:54Robert Mays: The Broncos did such a great job of setting their floor offensively last year because of what the pass protection was. But you could kind of feel the lack of ceiling because of what the pass catching weapons felt like. So that's why I think that in a lot of ways, I don't know if I agree that the Lions have a lower ceiling than the Packers. The explosiveness point is a good one. But as I think about the individual players and how the team is constructed, I think that the Lions as of right now probably have more high end weapons than the Packers do, even if you're trying to paint an optimistic picture for what Matthew Golden can be.

9:27I think they do. Like if I were to pick the five best players from these two rosters combined, like at least three of them are probably Lions, I would guess. And so like they kind of have the talent advantage in that sense. It's just to me, it comes back to like, again, you're putting in two new coordinators. So like what is the chance or capacity that you actually reach your ceiling? So I guess. I guess that's kind of more the framing is like, I just have less faith that the Lions can get to whatever their ceiling is just because of all the change that they're going to go through, whereas with the Packers, it's like if their ceiling is 13 wins, I feel more confident that they can get there than I do with the Lions, I think.

10:05Robert Mays: that makes sense but i think that again that's more about the circumstances than it is the roster talent necessarily but that's kind of what i would go back to offensively where the offensive line sets the floor and the pass catchers i think to an extent set the ceiling along with the play caller outside if we're trying to take into account all the things outside of the quarterback on defense i think it's a little bit harder because i think on defense like it can be the hole can be more than the sum of the parts in like a very real way like i go back to what the Eagles were last year. Because at first glance, I think if I was trying to paint what the ceiling would look like for a specific defense, I would go to the pass rush first and foremost.

10:39Robert Mays: Like that would be the first place my mind would go. But then you look at the last two years, the number one defense in the NFL, Jalen Carter is a good player, but it's not like that Eagles pass rush overall was like a devastating unit all season. They had some great moments, including the Super Bowl, but they weren't driven by pressure rates and what the pass rush group looked like. And you could say the same thing about the Ravens from the previous year. Like this is a collective thing. So I feel like figuring out what drives the ceiling on defense isn't necessarily just about high end players or just about high end pass rushers.

11:14Robert Mays: So it's a little bit murkier for me on that side of the ball. I don't know where you land on that. Like, do you think that there's a certain makeup of what your defensive roster looks like that gives you a higher or lower ceiling?

11:27to me it's probably just like can you play man coverage like that to me is is ultimately what it comes down to um and like i think the lions want to be that but i do i do think without carlton davis in the building now i think that actually probably makes that a little bit trickier like dj reed is a good player but that's not what i envision him to be necessarily like a run with you man-to-man uh player but i guess to the same point like that's also not what the packers are either so I guess for me like a lot of this like the ceiling thing really does boil down to just like how I feel watching the offense and like how I feel their hottest streaks can be rather than

11:59Robert Mays: the defense necessarily yeah defense I think I'd probably come down to like do you have two or three like real chess pieces defensively and are you extremely buttoned up on that side of the ball I mean that's kind of what the Eagles were last year defensively right like I so maybe I have to like think about that because like Brian Branch is absolutely that Aiden Hutchinson is not like a move around piece but offenses have to respond to him because he's one of the best pass rushers in the league um and so those two alone kind of give it to you yeah defense is a little bit harder to pin down but I think on offense I feel pretty good about what the non-quarterback elements that define the ceiling are all right let's get the next one okay we just talked about it everyone's super pumped football season right around the corner the ultimate hope time of year not so with this question from Connor Dempsey.

12:47Connor says, are the Vikings or Chargers more cursed? That's it. That's simple. What do you got here, Robert?

12:52Robert Mays: I love this because it's so simple. It's just, it is the most simple question. And Connor asked a couple different questions, but this was the entirety of this question. It's the shortest one we've ever gotten, I think. It's like six words. The reason I love this question is that you can take it so many different directions, okay? When it comes to fan bases, I think the Vikings fan base is more cursed than the Chargers fan base. The moving the team thing, like that's an entirely different conversation. Like, I don't think that layer of it is just hard to work through. But just talking about what the product on the field has looked like for the past five, 10, 20, 30 years.

13:28Robert Mays: If you go back to like the 70s and like all the Vikings teams that were extremely close and didn't end up getting there. And I know the Chargers have some of that in the 80s, but I think those teams and just like moments where they felt fell short when, you know, they were arguably some of the best teams in the NFL during that stretch. And then to me, the reason that I think the fan base in Minnesota is a little bit more cursed is that it feels like the Vikings have been closer more often and have had more of these like kind of transcendent teams that ultimately didn't do it. Like you look at what that team wasn't like 2017, like the mini Minneapolis miracle team.

14:03Robert Mays: And you just get trounced in the NFC championship game when you feel like, okay, this might be like a really special year, even after we lost our quarterback, The 98 Vikings and just what happened with that team in the playoffs and the fact that that group never really made a ton of did a ton of damage in the playoffs. Even the last couple of years, like 13, 14 win seasons that ultimately don't go anywhere. I just feel like the building up of the hope for Vikings fans only to have it ripped away from them over and over and over again would be enough to drive any person insane. So the fan base, I think, is more cursed in Minnesota.

14:37Robert Mays: the players are more cursed in Los Angeles with the Chargers like the the fan base of Minnesota has been dragged along and had just been smashed like their hopes and dreams over and over and over again the Chargers facility the old facility and like before they built the new one might have been built on like some sort of cursed ground like think about how many guys were on that Chargers team and ultimately like didn't reach their ceiling because they were hurt or things went a rye like even derwin james and joey bosa like derwin james and joey bosa have been good players neither of them has reached the potential we thought they would based on what they were earlier in their careers joey bosa just can't stay healthy derwin's been a little bit banged up and it's just been a little bit more of a winding road so i just think that the curse on the individual pieces of the organization are probably stronger with the chargers the curse on what the fans have had to go through is stronger with the vikings i think that's a good way to frame it um because with I feel like with the Chargers, it's always been a lot of little things.

15:37Like, it's just like a bunch of like kind of like what you're talking about with the Joey Bosa injuries here and there and Derwin James and a handful of other players. And then I with them, it's like I almost feel less cursed, but unlucky that a lot of their best teams were running up against the Tom Brady dynasties, Peyton Manning, like even to a lesser extent, the Steelers. Right. Like they were kind of just the other team in a crowded AFC. And so I feel like they were a little bit unlucky in that sense. And then the last thing I would say about the Chargers is I feel like a lot of their failings.

16:09I feel less like they're cursed and more like they're just incompetent a lot of the time. So I think that's part of with the Vikings. I don't feel like they're incompetent. You have like these 13, 14 win teams and then it just doesn't work out. And the other reason I would say the Vikings are more cursed. You know, we talked a little bit about the injuries with the Chargers, but some of the particular quarterback injuries for the Vikings, where multiple times you thought you had a guy and then something happens. Dante Culpepper obviously ends up blowing out his knee. That's a good one, actually.

16:39And then Teddy Bridgewater, like they thought they had a guy and then just complete non-contact injury, like just such a fluke, bizarre thing to have happened. And obviously that leads them into the, you know, a few years later, the Minneapolis miracle and all that stuff. But I think because of how close they've gotten and then the particular quarterback injuries that they've had, I feel like it's got to be the Vikings for more cursed.

17:03Robert Mays: Yeah, I think that's probably right, because at least the Vikings have a couple player examples to go along with the fan base pain. And so I do think when you combine those two minutes, Minnesota is probably the right answer. All right, guys, Alexander Norca has the next question here. He says, which teams or moments do you think of the most under the radar of what if things like what if team X drafted this player instead of that player? Or What if this specific player didn't get injured or even larger? What if for league trends or individual careers? What do you got here, Derek? So I think a very easy one is just any of the quarterback classes that had a ton of guys.

17:39So obviously 2021 comes to mind. 2018 comes to mind where obviously Baker Mayfield goes first overall. And you guys did the redraft of this. And like there were talks at the time that the Browns did maybe want to take Josh Allen. But it's like, does Josh Allen really become Josh Allen in Cleveland? I don't know. And like maybe Baker Mayfield figures it out if he ends up in Buffalo. Like, there's just I think that class is such a fascinating like who ends up where that could have changed some stuff. The other the one team I wanted, I thought might have been interesting if they had really kept things going was.

18:09Do you remember how insane the 2015 Bengals were and like what they I thought they were going to be going into that playoffs? And obviously they would have run into the 2015 Broncos defense. Right. But like how fun would that have been? And like the height of that offense with A.J. Green and Tyler Eifert and how good that offensive line was against potentially that Broncos team, I think could have been fun. And then the one other draft one I had, and this is less about like changing the fate of the franchise, because obviously this franchise has done very well. But if the Eagles took Jalen Rager over Justin Jefferson, and the reason I'm I'm interested in this is not because like, oh, imagine Justin Jefferson on the Eagles.

18:45But they probably wouldn't have taken Devonta Smith the year after the fact. And then they probably wouldn't have like thought to trade for A.J. Brown because it's like, well, we already have our superstar receiver. What do we need another one? So that to me is just like such an interesting domino of like where some of the best receivers in the league even fall and end up. So that one more to me is just like a butterfly effect type of one that I think would have been interesting.

19:06Robert Mays: And then in that case, Minnesota doesn't get Justin Jefferson after trading Stefan Diggs. And so what does that ultimately mean for the Vikings? Like that move makes sense in retrospect and worked out just fine because they got Justin Jefferson. If you don't, how does that alter what the next several years of Minnesota Vikings football looks like? I like that. And that's all the ones I picked were essentially,

19:30Robert Mays: okay, this is going to affect the team that did it. But then also what are the league wide effects? The first one to me, and again, they've made it very clear and they've told anyone who will listen, they wanted to do this. What happens if the Chiefs don't get ahead of the Saints in the 2017 draft and the Saints end up taking Patrick Mahomes? Man, dude, it changes the next five years of the NFL. And so that's the first place my mind goes. One, like what do the Chiefs do? Like how do they navigate the post Alex Smith era? Do they try to find a guy? Do they keep trying to get over the hump with Alex Smith?

20:06Robert Mays: Do they keep bumping up against their ceiling and or they try to do something extreme and go find a different quarterback? So the entire Chiefs part of that, which I'm sure Chiefs fans don't want to even start thinking about is interesting. But the Saints part of it, you potentially make good on that 2017 draft. All of the things that you did to kind of leverage your future and move money around, potentially pay off if you can win a Super Bowl with that group. And then think about Sean Payton, like Sean Payton with Patrick Mahomes. Does he just become Andy Reid? Like, do we get to say what about in 2025?

20:41Robert Mays: And so Andy Reid is now considered one of the greatest head coaches in the history of the sport. Right. Probably like one of the five, six greatest head coaches of all time based on what's happened over the last eight years. The same thing probably happens to Sean Payton if he gets Patrick Mahomes. Right. So just so many different things change for the coaches, the teams, the organizations and the quarterbacks. if that ends up happening. The other one I had is that what if Tom Brady signs with the Bears instead of the Bucs in 2020? Don't do that to yourself. Come on, man. It's honestly not even that.

21:16Robert Mays: It's just like that Bucs team just never, what does that Bucs team do? Like, where do they seek out their quarterback? Like that Super Bowl goes away. And I also think that we've talked about this a lot. That working to me set off a series of moves for other veteran quarterbacks over the next several off seasons. like if the Bucks don't win that Super Bowl with Tom Brady do the Rams trade for Matthew Stafford maybe not like maybe like do the Broncos trade for Russell Wilson because like with the Rams right I think you could tell me that Sean McVay maybe wanted to move on from golf either way but maybe their answer then isn't oh we'll go trade for a Matthew Stafford maybe it's then okay we'll scrap everything we'll get two first round picks and we'll go trade up for I don't remember what year that would have been but for somebody I don't know Trey Lance whatever it was but like they could have been such a very 2021 yeah they could have been the trey lance team that that's a fascinating one all right so and then that brings me to my final one what if the niners just stick and pick matt jones in 2021 oh man they'd probably be pretty good that that one's a funny one because like i i honestly truly feel like that would have worked out but then we wouldn't have brock purdy like that's i think that's probably the more interest like we wouldn't have Brock Purdy.

22:32Robert Mays: So Brock Purdy, who's now making$50 million a year, potentially never becomes an NFL starter if he's thrown into a different situation. And the other thing for the Niners is what if the Niners hang on to all of those picks? What do the 2021 through 2025 Niners look like if they had all of those first round picks and had to spend none of them on a quarterback that they ultimately did not play? Dude, that would have been gnarly. Cause like Now I want to go think like, what could they have done in like the 2022 draft if they had still had their pick? I think that would have been interesting to me.

23:11But I mean, like there had to be a pass rusher that they were going to go get.

23:14Robert Mays: So the guy who went one pick after the Niners would have picked in the 2022 draft was George Karloftis. Dog. like and what have we talked about over the last couple of years is that other than nick bosa man how far has their pass rush really deteriorated but imagine if they had a george carloftis right there yeah and they don't need superstar players i think this is just a reminder of how much talent was missing from those teams if you go to the 2023 draft it's not as fun there's not as clean of an option there nolan smith went one pick after they would have picked in the 2023 draft I don't think they're ever picking Nolan Smith just based on like the types of players the Niners chase at that position.

23:57Robert Mays: But like the guys on the interior of the offensive line that went in the back half of that draft, Brian Branch went in the second round of that draft. Like there are just so many guys that if you drop even like a solid player from the second round of that draft onto the Niners, things just feel so much different. Like what if Cody mock or Steve Avila is on that Niners offensive line right now, instead of not having anybody from either one of those first rounds, like in theory, potentially changes like the entire complexion of the NFC over the last couple of years. If the Niners don't bottom out with some of the depth concerns that they had because they missed out on those draft picks.

24:35Yeah, that that's a really fascinating one, because like and what's I think what's really interesting, too, is a lot of these. it's like in retrospect they didn't draft a player who we now know is very good like the the Jalen Rager Justin Jefferson thing it's like okay the Eagles missed on Justin Jefferson and we all know that Justin Jefferson's great now this one's an interesting one because it's like okay we saw Mac Jones be good for a year and then he now he's a backup and he's probably going to be a backup for the rest of his life but I think if we consider what he would have been with Kyle Shanahan it's like well I don't see why he couldn't do what Jimmy Garoppolo did for for eight

25:08Robert Mays: years like why not yeah I don't think that I do think that Brock Purdy gives the Niners a different sort of ceiling offensively than Matt Jones would have like I think that's worth admitting but even if you're like the best offense in the league by a little bit less and have two more players what does that mean for the Niners I think is just a fun thing to consider and even if we do get Mack Jones for a stretch this year in San Francisco obviously things are very different because you're operating without all of those draft picks that you would have had. All right, guys, let's get into the first break of the episode.

25:40Then we'll come back and answer a bunch more questions.

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26:25When it stops working, your system is flooded and you crash. Modafinil is a prescription treatment that works in a completely different way. Modafino works by stimulating multiple receptors in the brain associated with wakefulness, including dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, histamine, glutamate, and orexin. It's a more complete solution that gives you 10 to 12 hours of steady focus and energy. To learn more, go to mod.com. Fill out your intake form, meet with a licensed provider, and if approved, ModAlert ships straight to your door. Go to mod.com to get started. That's M-O-D dot com.

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27:44Natan Gorin brings us out of break. Natan says, I am a fan in the UK who decided to get into the sport five years ago, and with no ties to any team, I chose to support the one with the number one pick, the Cincinnati Bengals. I've fallen in love with Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, and the sport in general. However, I can't help but feel that the team's window for winning the Super Bowl may have already closed despite the obvious talent. We've now given out three large contracts on the offense, all of which I think made sense, but we've stalled with our only all pro level defender. I know there are other franchises who have it much worse than us.

28:15And with Burrow, Chase and Higgins, you always have a chance. But is it possible for a team run the way the Bengals are to reach a Super Bowl when the QB isn't on his rookie deal? Robert, what do you got for this one?

28:25Robert Mays: Yes. It is very possible for that to happen. Yes. And I think I just love this question because there's just like a real level of earnestness here as like Natan is like five years into his time as an NFL fan is already staring into the abyss about how this is going to go. If you have an offense that is as good or can be as good as the Cincinnati Bengals offense, even that what they were last year, you absolutely can win a Super Bowl with that group because your defense can stumble into some form of competency. And I think that can happen this year. Like I feel like some people have taken some of the relative pessimism about the state of the Bengals and the state of the Bengals defense as the Bengals defense is going to be terrible again and the Bengals aren't going to be good.

29:11Robert Mays: I don't believe that whatsoever. Like if you told me this year with some of the young pieces and a new defensive coordinator that the Bengals had like the 15th best defense in the league and they won 14 games, that's possible. Like I don't think that's off the table by any stretch. That's absolutely within a realm of outcomes that can happen. I think that what's important to keep in mind here, it's harder. If you operate this way, it's just harder. Is it possible? 100 % it's possible. When you have the most important things in place, you always give yourself a chance. But when you're not doing everything else, you're not giving yourself the best chance.

29:51Robert Mays: And that's where I am with the Bengals. Like there's absolutely a world where they make this happen over the next two to three years because of how good the quarterback and everything else is. I just think that they've put some impediments in front of themselves unnecessarily by some of the ways that they operate where they have to stumble and trip over things that some other teams don't. it's also like if you've only really been watching football the last five years or so the Eagles have dominated that stretch in particular and they've done it specifically by what they've been able to do with their GM and the way that they move money around and so like if your narrow view of football is only those last five years where the Eagles have done it this way it feels like you're way behind the eight ball if you're not doing it that way and you kind of are But like there are other ways to win.

30:37And like to me, I think the Bengals being the 15th best defense is a little rich, potentially. Like to me, that's not on the board. But the good news is. But what would you have said about the Chargers last year?

30:47Robert Mays: Would you have thought in any possible world the Chargers would have a top 10 defense last year? Probably not. And I guess part of that thing is like they did get lucky with some of their young. Not lucky, but obviously some of their young players played really well. But I guess I felt better about the Bengals front or the excuse me, the Chargers front a little bit better than I do about the Bengals. But maybe that's not really enough. But that's a good point. So it is on the table. I guess. I don't know. Part of that, too, was like they brought in Jim Harbaugh and I trusted whoever he was going to hire.

31:22Whereas I think with the Bengals, they fired a defensive coordinator, I believe is good and one that I don't have as much faith in. So I think that's certainly part of it. What I was going to say is like in what years were it? The 09-2010 Saints, their defense was 20th in scoring. They won the Super Bowl because their offense was the best in the league. The 06-07 Colts, their defense was 23rd in scoring and they won the Super Bowl because their offense was the best in the league. And they they're built kind of similarly, right? Like I think Breeze and Burrow are like similar ish quarterbacks. And then if you just look at the way that the Colts teams were built, it was like superstar quarterback to superstar receivers.

32:01They're going to figure it out. And then they did. And so obviously, again, you're having to thread a needle because those are both teams that only won one Super Bowl, as opposed to, you know, being able to go on a run the way the Chiefs have or the Eagles consistently getting their have. But so it's possible. It's harder, but it's definitely possible.

32:19Robert Mays: Yeah, I just think that defense, there's so much volatility on defense, especially when you're incorporating a new play caller, that for me, it's hard to just say, this is how it's going to go. And I've learned that lesson a bunch of different times over the last like 15 years. The team I always come back to is the Saints were historically bad defensively for like multiple years in a row. And then they weren't anymore. And so I remember having a conversation before that season. And then they were again after that. But they're just they there was a season where we were talking about it was on the bringer NFL show.

32:52Robert Mays: We were talking about all the teams that win the Super Bowl and the Saints we knew would have one of the best offenses in the league. And I was like, there's no way the defense will be good enough for them to compete for a Super Bowl. And that's just it's almost never true. Like we you can pick up you can look at roster talent and you can try to make calculated guesses about how who's going to be really bad on defense and who's going to be really good. But I think that there's enough volatility with how it's ultimately going to shake out that it's really hard to make definitive proclamations about that going into an individual year.

33:25Robert Mays: Even if you're worried about certain pockets of the roster talent, you can get by enough. This is an extreme example because they had one of the best offenses we've ever seen. But the Falcons defense in 2016 was bad. There are bad defenses that have gotten to the doorstep of winning championships because of how good the offense is. And so the fact that you can still be, it's almost impossible now to win the Super Bowl. If you have an objectively bad offense, if you have the 20th best offense in the league, I can't even imagine how good the defense would have to be for you to win the Super Bowl.

34:00Robert Mays: On the other side, it's very, it's not very easy, but it is possible to imagine what that version of a team looks like. And even with all of the doubts about what the Bengals are going to be defensively, if you told me right now the Bengals have the 20th best defense in the league this year okay like that's absolutely possible and you combine that with what they are on offense and they absolutely can win the Super Bowl with that sort of team yeah that's a good point I mean the defense wasn't that much better than that when they did go to the Super Bowl I mean they were probably like it was like 16th yeah they were like 16 17 so like if it's like you could tell me that the defense could be like a half tier worse than that and they could get back to the Super Bowl because yeah again and And the difference to like now, even compared to them, like Joe Burrow is better than he was at that time.

34:48Like Jamar Chase is better than he was at that time. Tee Higgins is better than you. Like, it's just they're a better the best players on the offense. And the reason the offense is that good is even better now than it was at the time. Like they've just they've grown and they've developed.

35:03Robert Mays: And I think we forget it now because they've had seasons where they've been really good over the last three or four years because they have more talent and Spags is really good. the Chiefs defense wasn't good in the early part of the Mahomes era like in 2019 when they won the Super Bowl they were not a good defense they finished 18th in EPA per play on defense like this is a very viable path even if it seems like it's a tough road based on how the last couple seasons have gone for the Bengals and that's a good point too because we remember those defenses being better than they were because like they did bow up a little bit in the playoffs and like this you know spags would call some one-off game plans and they would be really good but like getting there was a it was it was a lot of 32 to 28 type of games yes i mean that mostly in 2018 that was like really the case before they got spags but still i i think that this is more this is a more popular way of getting to and potentially winning a super bowl than it probably seems if you're a fan all right but we got another bangles themed one let's let's just roll right into that one here all right let's hear it it's uh comes from david shore shirota and he says that he's been a bangles fan since 2005 chose them in the carson palmer chad johnson era and well let's say i've had time to build character so here's the question what is zach taylor really he rarely gets mentioned in coaching discussions is that because people see the offense as joe burrow's offense making zach expendable because we've also seen him make clear schematic differences when jake browning was in the offense looked totally different if the bangles missed the playoffs again mostly due to the defense would it make sense to move on from taylor and bring in a defensive minded head coach someone who could let burrow run the offense while shoring up the other side of the ball or is having a capable offensive play caller too rare to let go of even if the defense continues to struggle derrick why don't you take this one first it's a fantastic question because i think i was guilty of this especially earlier on in zach taylor's tenure where i kind of just it's joe burrow's offense it is what it is um i will say i think and i don't remember where I heard this, but it's always stuck with me.

37:03Maybe it was Eric Stoner like 10, 12 years ago, however long it was. But teams typically take on the personality of their quarterback or their head coach. And for the Bengals, it's very obviously the quarterback, which complicates it when you get into a head coach who is like kind of also your offensive mind. But I do think in Robert, we had this discussion at some point, maybe it was during last season where, again, you think about some of the stuff they do with Jake Browning, where it is a completely different offense and it's a very well put together offense. Like they sequence their under center stuff.

37:30Well, The play action stuff was really good. But I think even beyond that, Taylor has shown really nice ability to when the offensive line permits it, find stuff in the run game. Like they had the stretch in 2023 where they were like, all right, man, shotgun run game. That's all we got. And they figured it out and it wasn't explosive, but it was efficient enough to let them be what they wanted to be. I think even then this year, their tweak was, OK, how do we maximize Jamar Chase? He's the best receiver in football. How do we do something more with him then? Hey, line up outside and Joe's going to figure it out.

38:01They did a lot more putting him in the slot and moving him around. And I thought that that was creative. So even if I do believe on the whole, like it is Joe Burrow's offense, just in the way that he wants to be in the shotgun more. He wants to be more pure pass. He wants to get the ball out quickly. I do believe all of that stuff is more Joe Burrow than Zach Taylor. But I do think like the longer these two work together, the more you see the offense without Joe Burrow at times. It's pretty clear that Taylor is, you know, I don't know if he's as good as Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan or any of those guys, but I think he clearly is capable.

38:33And I actually, I respect him a lot more now than I did a year and a half, two years ago.

38:39Robert Mays: I think that's fair. And we've talked a ton on this show over the last three years, Beller, about just some of the subtle tweaks and some of the subtle evolution from the Bengals offense. And that example that you mentioned, Derek, about the gun run game is a very good one. And we talked about that in the moment. I remember they played that game against the Saints that season in like week four or five. they went almost exclusively to the shotgun and they started tweaking the run game to be more of a downhill gap scheme run game. And they really were able to tap into a high level of efficiency and the entire offense came together.

39:10Robert Mays: And it's always going to be limited in terms of how much you can do when the quarterback's preferences dominate so much of it. But if you look at some of those offenses that you mentioned, I think it's a lot easier to appreciate what Kyle Shanahan and Tua are because they're kind of operating with a blank slate. Like the quarterback is just kind of a piece of the overall machine. So it's easier to appreciate the construction of the machine. Like that's what stands out to you. Zach Taylor isn't able to build an offense from scratch. He has to work with what Joe Burrow wants to, because that's, I think the best path forward for them.

39:46Robert Mays: And I think within those constraints, I do like a lot of the stuff that they have done over the last few years. And I think that they deserve a lot of credit for that another area where i think zach taylor just doesn't get enough credit but i think he's due plenty it's hard to manage the personalities in a building where the front office and ownership is consistently pissing off your players like just even let's go to the trey hendrickson thing it's a hard thing to have to juggle like you are the person at the front of this and with the trey hendrickson thing specifically trey was talking about him hearing from Zach Taylor as part of this.

40:23Robert Mays: So Zach is having to massage the relationships with all of these guys as they're being disrespected in their minds by the front office because they're not getting the paydays that they want. I think that is very difficult. So when you combine just some of the culture and personality management in a place where I think sometimes that's hard to do with some of the things that they've done on offense, I really like a lot of what Zach Taylor has been over the last few years. The area where I take the biggest issue with him is that I think some of his in-game decision-making from a strategic standpoint has been horrendous.

40:58Robert Mays: There are so many moments, like if you look at the fourth down decisions over the last couple of years, it was better in 2024 than it had been. But in 2022, 2023, if you look at how often they were going forward on fourth down when they probably should have been, it was in the bottom half of the league and probably like in the bottom five or six teams. So I think there were a lot of issues there and even some specific instances. I think it was the Ravens game this year, the week five Ravens game, where it was close down the stretch and they played for like a 53 yard field goal that Evan McPherson missed.

41:29Robert Mays: They have played for way too many long field goals at the end of some of these games and it has come back to bite them. So I think some of the in-game decision making just from that perspective, that is probably my biggest issue with Zach Taylor. but I don't think he gets enough credit in some of these other areas that he probably should have gotten over the last couple of years. Do you think that is like a McVay Shanahan tree thing? And like all of those guys struggle with it. So I think that's part of it. I can't explain it. I can't explain it. But why would they share this characteristic? I don't I don't know.

42:04I think it's just a fundamental. Well, because I think what's interesting is what I was going to say is like Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan specifically are. very clearly or at least started as like run first like we're going to control the game that style of thing and Zach Taylor obviously comes from that but like the Bengals have never been that so you would think that at a certain point that you would break that thinking from your mind when you have Joe Burrow, Jamar Chase, like Tee Higgins like it's fourth and three like okay maybe we want to run it but like dude just like we'll just throw a ball up in the air and Tee Higgins will go find it like why don't they do stuff obviously that's like a very simple way to put it but it is kind of shocking they don't do it more I'm almost surprised like Joe Burrow isn't more aggressive about it because like part of the why the Ravens I think go for it so much is Lamar is just all of the time like yeah we're going for it like keep me on the field and so I almost wonder if like I wonder what that you know situation is like but it is kind of bizarre they don't go for it as often as they do or as often as why all of these young head coaches with these

43:04Robert Mays: good offenses don't want to give their quarterbacks every single chance. It's just mystifying to me. Kyle Shanahan has been a little bit better about it over the last couple of years. And McVay has been a little bit better about it. But the fact that this has been a consistent problem for all of these guys for multiple years in a row, it is just always mystifying to me because I just don't get it. Like in so many ways, you're the one on the front foot, you're attacking, you have that mindset when it comes to the way that you construct your offense, the way that you're building the the offense.

43:34Robert Mays: And then in all of these high leverage moments, you're going to take your foot off the gas and suddenly become like a conservative person. It's just always been hard for me to square it. That's the funny thing. It's like so much of, especially Kyle Shanahan, the way that they run the offense is like, I am in control. And then on fourth and one, you can be in control. You're in the driver's seat. And they're like, I think I'm good here. we'll hand it off to the defense it's like what why the number of like 35 yard field goals i had to watch robbie gold kick over multiple straight years i was not a huge fan of it so overall i think that zach taylor probably doesn't get enough credit for some of his strengths as a head coach even if i do take issue with some of the other things that go into being a quality head coach in the nfl let me just read this to you guys because i actually watched the episode of quarterback last night where the that bangles ravens overtime loss for the bangles is included so the bangles took over after a fumbled snap at baltimore's 38 three straight chase brown runs and a missed 53 yard field goal yes i was looking through my week five notes before we started recording this because i want to remember it that's a tough one that fumble was the most raven's shit ever by the way they were they were they were one and three they had the chiefs loss They had the commander's loss and then they finally got their first win.

44:54And this was the next game.

44:56Robert Mays: In my notes in that week, in my week five notes, it literally says, is this a season altering decision? And it was in week five. It seemed like a strong thing to say, but you can make a very solid argument that it was a season altering decision. Well, I think for them specifically, it's fair because that's literally like right after the tragedy of the Washington game. So to like lose that game that way and then have a game that you could have won and you fumble it that way. It's like you kind of threw your season away pretty fast. That was the worst one. Like they missed a long field goal against the Chargers late in that game, too.

45:32Robert Mays: But they did at least try to throw the ball three times before they ended up kicking it. But you look back two years ago, I think they kicked 1350 yard field goals in 2023, which was the second most in the league. And Evan McPherson has not been that good of a kicker over the last couple of years. So their willingness to kick those field goals has been a consistent hindrance on what this team could have been over the last couple of seasons. All right, guys. Next question comes from Peter Hudson, and it's a similar theme. We just went from what exactly is Zach Taylor? We're going to do it with the GM.

46:01He says he can't decide whether or not Nick Casario has done a good job with the Texans. He's made several good moves, drafting Derek Stingley and CJ Stroud, making the move for Will Anderson, the Deshaun Watson trade. but he's had some pretty big errors as well, including the early instability at head coach, drafting of Kenyon green. And as you guys have talked about the misalignment between where the team was and where he thought they were just last off season, the moves this off season that helped direct our friend, Peter one way or the other. So he wants your help. Isn't a Casario a good GM who can build a true contender?

46:32What do you say, Robert?

46:34Robert Mays: I think so. This is a good question because I love these. I don't know the answer. Like when the, when somebody asks a question, I don't have immediately have a good answer. I know that's a good question. That's kind of where I was with the Casario thing. Part of me was like, yeah, like he's made enough good moves for me to feel pretty good about it. And I do think that too often I'm guilty of this. And when you and David were talking about the Texans on that show, Derek, that inspired this question, I think that you guys were doing this a little bit too, where it's like, okay, are they going all in or are they not?

47:03Robert Mays: I don't think it has to be an either or thing with these teams in any given off season. I think truly, if I'm looking back at the 2024 Texans offseason, when we conceived of them just pushing all of their chips in, the only move they made as part of that entire push that I think was probably a little bit overaggressive and they probably want back was the Stephon Diggs trade. Signing Daniil Hunter the way that they did and spending a little bit more money, I don't think there's that big of an issue there. I think the digs thing is probably one foot over the line. But if you look at everything they've done in the draft over the last couple of years in tandem with some of that aggressiveness, Nick Casario has been very good at stealing draft picks pretty much every single year where he'll trade down in the second round.

47:51Robert Mays: He traded down from the first round to the second round in last year's draft after they had made all of these all in moves to get an additional 2025 third round or second round pick. there's always like an extra second or an extra third somewhere in the mix for this team because they've offset some of the aggressiveness with a little bit more patience and asset accumulation, which I think you have to do. So I think that balance of making sure, even if we're being aggressive with some of these assets, trying to make sure we're picking nine, 10 times a year, every single year. I like that. And the only thing I saw coming into this year, I feel pretty good about a majority of the moves that they made.

48:30Robert Mays: I think this year, the offensive line strategy is where I might take a little bit of issue, but for the most part over the last two, three years, I think that they've done a solid job because even if they've done really aggressive things like the Will Anderson trade, I think they've made sure to offset that with a little bit more methodical team building in the right moments. Yeah. I think he's been a good GM outside of the offensive line stuff like like again hitting on cj stroud the will anderson trade um and then you mentioned the draft picks like they acquire all of these extra um picks and stuff which the whole point of that is you got to use them well but they do like nico collins was a third round pick tank dell getting him where they got him jalen petrie was not a first round pick like they do well with these mid and bullock was a third round pick and kamari lassiter was not a first like they they and again part of that too is like that can get a little bit complicated like some of the defensive guys it's like well D 'Amico Ryans is a fantastic coach but even again some of the receivers that they've drafted and done well with um I think it's pretty impressive and so I think he is a good GM and then like the two points I want to hit are one the early instability at head coach I honestly don't blame him that for him at all that that to me was like a post to Sean Watson this is coming from above I think the organization didn't even know what they wanted to be I don't really pin that on Casario.

49:50I think it was like kind of intended for them to not really stick with the head coach. So that I don't necessarily blame him for. And then the other point I wanted to hit was, so they go all in last year and obviously it kind of blows up in their face. And I do think that even going into it, we all could have said the Stefan Diggs trade was a little aggressive. And I think I probably did say that going in, you know, based on just based on his age and what they were having to pay him and all that stuff. But at the same time, was he wrong for believing in an offense that had CJ Stroud? Was it his fault that Bobby Sloick didn't turn out to be the offensive coordinator they wanted?

50:25That to me, what we saw last year with the offense was more an issue of offensive coaching failing, which to me actually falls less on Casario and more on D 'Amico Ryans. And again, I think D 'Amico Ryans is a fantastic coach, but I think the coaching staff issues fall more on him and so I don't really pin that on Casario I think now we can look at this off season and be like I don't know if I love what they did with the offensive line um and I think even again you know the Kenyon green pick beforehand like some of the other acquisitions they made at the offensive line other than uh Tunsil which I don't even think was Casario like so again I think outside of offensive line he has been pretty firmly a good coordinator or a general manager to me.

51:09Robert Mays: He's been proactive in a lot of ways while also not being aggressive in a way that's really going to hurt you because you're offsetting it with some of these moves where you're getting picks back. Even the Kenyon Green for CJ Gardner-Johnson trade, that's just the type of trade that I think a proactive, creative general manager makes. You're going out and getting one more piece on defense. This guy wasn't going to be part of your plans. I can understand why the Eagles would do it too. Like, but I think that being willing to do that kind of stuff, that to me is the mark of a good GM where you're trying to be creative.

51:41Robert Mays: You're trying to solve problems. And I think that he has done a solid job of that for the most part over the last few years. They're not the saints. Like they're not over leveraging themselves constantly and like not really getting stuff back. Like to your point, like they'll do a super aggressive thing. But then again, they'll they'll trade out of the second round and then acquire a few more picks. or again, they'll do these weird swaps with a team that, you know, the, you know, CJ Gardner Johnson maybe has overrun his stay in Philadelphia and they don't need him. OK, then we're going to go get him.

52:10And like just they do smart things like that, I think. Even like some of the smaller signings, like getting Dalton Schultz, like he's not the best tight end, but like he's a useful player, like just little stuff like that. I think they've generally done well with that.

52:23Robert Mays: Yeah, I agree. And even like small things like Sheldon Rankins was bad for the Bengals last year. Sheldon Rankins, I think, was making like 10 million bucks for the Bengals last year. He's making five for the Texans this year. So I think just some of the smaller veteran moves they've made to try to round out the roster over the last few years, I do think that they've done a solid job of that. So we'll see what happens with the floor of the offense kind of change the way that this team feels overall. But I feel like we're probably a little bit too down on what the Casario era has been because of how last year went, when in reality, it's probably somewhere between how we felt after the 23 season and how we felt after the 24 season.

53:00We got a few more questions to get to before we close up the mailbag for the summer. But before we get to them, we are going to take our last break of the episode.

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55:07Okay, guys, this next question comes from Sean, just Sean. And Sean wrote a long email about Bears linebackers coach Richard Smith being one of the worst coordinators in NFL history, but a consistently good linebackers coach. So his question was, is this the Peter principle at work in the NFL? Is this an example of someone who just was a great position coach, can't quite reach the coordinator level? And what other guys have we seen do a similar sort of job as to what he was talking about with Bears linebackers coach Richard Smith? What do you got here, Robert?

55:34Robert Mays: To me, it's always the best examples for me are coordinators to head coaches where they were great coordinators and they ultimately just did not be becoming good head coaches. The best recent example is just Vic Fangio. Like, I feel like Vic Fangio just should have stayed a defensive coordinator. Like, he should have just been a defensive coordinator. The Broncos thing didn't need to happen. Like, I'm glad he got his chance. He deserves it after an illustrious career. but there are also parts of me watching him in Denver. I was like, does he want to be here? Like, is he enjoying this? It really doesn't seem like he is.

56:05Robert Mays: That's fair. I think he's just like that sometimes. I think Vic specifically is somebody who just likes having his little kingdom that he gets to run and would be happier just doing that. And so I think there's a lot of examples of that where guys are very competent NFL coordinators and just aren't fit to be head coaches. Josh McDaniels is an example of this. To me, the best one, though, and this is something I've written about and talked about a bunch over the last 10 years or so, and I've talked to a bunch of people about it. I think the ultimate example of this is Wade Phillips. Wade Phillips was such a good defensive coordinator so many different times that he kept getting these head coaching jobs, and I don't think he ever really wanted them.

56:48Robert Mays: He was just somebody that didn't enjoy so many parts of being a head coach. And people have told me this, like him having to cut players and having to do all of those logistical and kind of organizational things that comes with being a head coach. He didn't like doing that. And so there are some guys that are just fit for these jobs where they can control their own little world and the scope is pretty limited. And when you expand that scope, they're just not really built for whatever the next version of the job looks like. it is kind of fascinating to how i feel like a lot more of these guys are defensive guys like obviously you know we brought up vic fangio wade phillips now jim schwartz is kind of like this vance joseph obviously steve spagnolo has never taken another chance and he's been an incredible defensive coordinator at a number of spots like it just feels like there's a lot of defensive guys and i don't know why that is like i wonder if this is getting like way too into like psychoanalysis But obviously with the offensive guys, it's like you're trying to put up points.

57:47You're trying to make a thing happen. You're trying to be flashy, whereas like defense is all about having things not happen and seeing things not happen, like seeing the score not go up. So I wonder if there's just this like I don't know, they kind of get. There's just like a comfort in things not happening and like not having to do as much, if that makes sense, which is like I don't really know if I frame that very well, but I think that's why the defensive guys just being like, I'm happy just doing. getting into my zone exactly exactly and i think there's just there i don't know there's something about those guys are wired that they they just enjoy that and like even to go down to like the college level like brent venables was an incredible defensive coordinator for a long time and i think he's been uh up and down as a head coach i think there's plenty of examples of that and so those

58:34Robert Mays: are my favorite ones the guys who are just these incredible defensive coordinators and they're so good that they keep getting these head coaching jobs. And it's just like, eh, maybe you're just a really good defensive coordinator. Like maybe Dennis Allen is just a really good defensive coordinator. And, and there's, there's nothing wrong with being like a really good defensive coordinator and making between like a million and$2 million a year just for the rest of your life. Like that is a good life. Like what Pete Carmichael got to do in New Orleans for years and years and years and years there's nothing wrong with that like if you just want to have that be your job obviously he wasn't the play caller but I feel like guys could just just just be comfortable like just be happy you're doing just fine in this job dude and I'm trying to think of more examples and I it I keep coming up with defensive guys like Romeo Cronell was kind of like this where he called a lot of really good defenses but the head coaching since we're up and down like it just I can't tap into that many offensive guys I mean I guess like the most recent example right is cliff kingsbury last year but it's it's really mostly like defensive guys cliff is a good example of that i mean like we'll see what happens with arthur smith like arthur smith has been a very good offensive coordinator at times when given a chance he did not succeed as a head coach josh mcdaniels to me again is the is the best example like this has happened multiple different times with josh mcdaniels but i think there are plenty of them still but i think they're probably more defensive guys all right guys michael petchke has the next question here he is an overseas Seahawks fan and he is wondering, with good reason, how quickly can you improve the offensive line situation within a team?

1:00:09With questionable offensive play calling, the center retiring midseason, and a third round draft pick flaming out, last season ended with Seattle's O-line on the bottom tier once again. My question is, what realistic expectation can I have this year with a veteran coaching staff, a promising guard pick, attempting to revive this unit? Is this a case of throwing darts at the draft board until something finally pays off, or is there actual nuance to having offensive line coaches that know what they're doing. Brian Buehler also threw in something similar, who's not exactly happy about the way that we've been talking about the Texas, the Texans, excuse me, offensive line situation.

1:00:40So that's what we've got here. What do you say about this, Derek? I think it's a really good question because we've talked a lot about this offseason with, I mean, those two teams specifically and probably a handful of others, the Bears included, about how much the scheme can do for you. And I think it does depend a little bit like where you're coming from and what you're going to like with in this in the case of the Seahawks I don't think they had a very imaginative run game last year but the the issue was less about that and it was more that like they tied their run game to their pass game so poorly and I think that was just a product of Grubb being more of a college guy and wasn't as necessary where he was coming from with the Washington Huskies because they could throw the ball over the all over the yard so I think they struggled for that reason obviously now with Kubiak it's going to be a little bit more of a stock standard Shanahan style of system that we saw from him obviously last year with the New Orleans Saints.

1:01:31The thing I want to say about that, though, is that I do think going to that system can be a little bit of a floor raiser for your offensive line. I also think in a way it's kind of like a bandaid solution rather than a like we actually fixed something solution. Like I think it can get you from 29th to 21st or something like that. But I do think at the end the day the players are the players and that's the point that I want to get to I think when we're in July we can all have these discussions for every single offensive line be like oh it's a weak link system and our new right guard actually isn't that bad we're going to get to September and they're going to be that bad like somebody is going to be that bad and like maybe it's not the Seahawks maybe it's not the Texans but I look at some of these offensive lines and it's like we overestimate I think the quality of the worst players on a lot of these offensive lines at this time of year and then also injuries are just going to happen and I look at the Seahawks depth and I'm not sure I love it that much so I just I think they can be they will be better than they were last year I just think that the difference to me is probably more like 30th to 25th than like 30th to 20th or

1:02:36Robert Mays: 18th or something like that I think you can go from 30th to 20th based on what the Seahawks were last year because I think to me it's a combination of not just an improvement with some of the individual pieces. But when it comes to like offensive line ecosystems, I think that is extremely important. Like when you said this about the Seahawks, like that offense and what they were trying to do last year is the worst case scenario for maximizing or hiding your offensive line talent. Like I can't think of a scenario or just a construction of an offense that would be more poorly set up to get the most out of your individual offensive line talent than what the Seahawks were doing last year.

1:03:15So just by virtue of going, the Bengals, at least, I mean, at least they throw the ball

1:03:20Robert Mays: quicker. Burrow gets the ball out faster. So that helps. But Burrow gets rid of the ball really quickly. And I think the run game, it's still tied into the overall structure of the offense, even if there is no play action element to marry them. But what the Bengals, what the Seahawks were doing last year, like you are just you're setting yourself up to fail on the offensive line. So I think if you go from that to at least setting yourself up to have a chance, that's that's a way that you can go from like 32nd to 25th immediately, even without adding better pieces along the offensive line. So I do think that the system is probably most important in a given off season because you can only add so many new players.

1:03:57Robert Mays: Like I've said this before, I think if the bears had just brought their 2024 offensive line back this year, it would look very, very different in a Ben Johnson offense than it looked in last year's offense. So I think that's one way that you can pretty quickly fix it. And my favorite example of this is you and David were talking about the Jags last year and you were talking about the Jags offensive line this year. And you were talking about how last year, Liam Cohen had one of the best offensive lines in the league. What I would say to you is, did they have one of the best offensive lines in the league because all of the players are elite?

1:04:29Robert Mays: Or did they have one of the best offensive lines in the league because Liam Cohen helped make the offensive line look better? like Ben Bedeson was free last offseason okay Cody Mock took a huge step forward and Luke Adecki is a solid player but he looked a lot better in that situation so even on a talent level if the Jags have the 25th best offensive line in the league and Liam Cohen can make them look like the 18th best offensive line in the league that goes a long way so I do think that fixing the offensive line, quote unquote, is often helped in large part by moving to a situation where your coaching staff is going to maximize the offensive line.

1:05:10Robert Mays: In order to have the best offensive line in the league or like one of the five, six, seven best offensive lines, you need really, really good talent. Like ultimately the players are going to dictate that. But I think when you're trying to go from really, really bad to acceptable, switching out systems, offensive line coaches, and just how you're trying to hide those guys can go a really, really long way. That's a good point. And I guess for really both of these teams, the goal isn't even to necessarily be the 17th best offensive line in the league. It's to not be the 29th anymore. Because like, obviously we can tier offensive lines and there could be like six or whatever of them.

1:05:47But like, honestly, offensive line, like nine through probably like 22, you're like mostly probably getting relatively the same quality or like the things that you can do with them you're just trying to get out of the gutter and not be 28th anymore and I do think that there's a chance that Seahawks can do that I want to address the Texans part of it really quickly though to go back to again like the weak link uh idea so like I will I'll I will give credit to the young guys like I think there is a chance that Patterson can be better and I do think Fisher even though he struggled for a lot of last year I do think could be better especially with again a better ecosystem so i'll set the younger guys off to the side i i think i just think that cam robinson is worse than a lot of other people do and then lakin tomlinson is a 33 year old guard who's on his third team in three years i just again it's one of those things where we can sell ourselves that that's a fine weak link in july and then we get to september and

1:06:39Robert Mays: it's like i don't know man yeah the idea that like and part of this email that brian brian brian brian was laying out is that the texans have added all these pieces to the offensive line, it's raised the floor of the offensive line. I think the change in system will raise the floor of the offensive line. The change in system is what will allow you to not bottom out there. I don't think Laken Tomlinson, who's like you just said on his third team in the last three years and was a cast off from the worst offensive line in the league last year. And Trent Brown, who hasn't been a real NFL player in three years are going to dictate this.

1:07:13Robert Mays: Like if you want to sell me on juice grugs and Jared Patterson being acceptable in a better situation. That's totally fine. And Shaq Mason being gone, like other people have pointed to that as an issue. Shaq Mason was not good last year. Shaq Mason was part of the problem last year. So I think that there are a lot of things that point to the Texans offensive line being better. Like the idea that the Texans have the 32nd offensive line in the NFL, which a lot of rankings have said that they do. I think that's probably a little bit too low on what the pieces actually are but the idea that they've been playing like some 4d chess with the way they've built this group with the guys they've added to it this offseason i'm not buying whatsoever and and i think there was even in the question too there was a thing of like okay it's a cap league and they um they're paying some other really expensive players at other points and and offensive retooling is going to be ugly and i agree with that and I don't I don't even necessarily disagree with them wanting to restructure it the way that they did obviously the Tunsil thing was too aggressive but I get them wanting to have a bunch more new pieces but that just doesn't mean I have to like the players this year you know you know what I mean like I can agree and understand the vision but I don't have to think that the players this year are that good and that's I think ultimately where I land with it like I think long-term health wise this will probably be good for the offensive line by 2026 or 2027 I just I still look at the 2025 unit and I'm like someone's got to be the 30th offensive line in the league and I still think it might be the Texans and also just what you're going to be getting out of the left tackle I think could be a problem like if you if your options are Cam Robinson and a second round pick at left tackle there's a chance that Ursary is fine over the next few years but there is also a chance that left tackle is a problem for you this season specifically I think I'm at a place now where if the pass protection plan is better, the Texans offensive line could be acceptable this year.

1:09:06Robert Mays: And I think that's really the only bar you're trying to clear with that group if you're Houston going into this season. Yeah, I mean, we saw all CJ Stroud needed was acceptable as a rookie and we all thought he was the second coming of Christ.

1:09:22All right, guys, this is our final question of the offseason mailbag. Thank you to everyone who wrote in questions this offseason. It's been a great series of episodes. We, of course, wrap it up. It's been a theme of these mailbags questions about conflicted fandom. And that's where we wrap things up. This one comes from Rob Devine. Rob starts off his email by explaining that he grew up in a Giants family, but he chose the Jets to be different and is now a diehard Jets fan. So he says, my wife comes from a family of Colts and Packers fans, and they love the game as much as I do. Her oldest sister once suggested that the Packers could be my NFC team.

1:09:57She has convinced her husband, a Colts fan, to go along with this, but I just cannot bite. The best explanation I have is that given the ineptitude and chaos that the Jets are, I feel like it would be wrong to jump on the bandwagon of a competent franchise like the Packers. When Packers vs. Lions comes on, the Jets fan inside me cannot in good faith root for the Packers. The Lions are akin to my Jets, and I cannot imagine celebrating my first, quote, team Super Bowl not being the Jets or at least being for a team that has history like the Packers. I like the players and even the coach, but when I see the players on the field with that logo, I cannot get there to root for them with vigor.

1:10:29Does my rationale make sense for this? Do you think that you can only root for your significant other's team in addition to yours if they are either in the same category or worse than your team? Or am I just a stick in the mud football masochist waiting for jet successes that will never come? Robert, what do you got here?

1:10:44Robert Mays: You don't have to do this. Like you do not have to root for this team. I don't think you have to, if you're watching a Packer game with your wife, I think you can just kind of be like some moral support and some company as that happens. Like my wife does not watch sports, so we don't deal with this at all. Like, but when my wife is, when we're on vacation and she wants to go shopping, I do, I want to do that. Is that my favorite thing to be doing? No, I'm there for just like some companionship and for some support. And I think you can do that in this case. like it's totally fine to just kind of be a bystander here and not be a full-fledged fan of your significant other's team I think that's more than okay in this scenario that's how I was going to kind of take it like I you don't have to be a again I think with fandom I'm more like do whatever you want to do but if you don't want to be a Packers fan in this instance then no you don't have to my suggestion would be like let them kind of be in their own bucket obviously you're a Jets You can have the other 30 teams in this.

1:11:46I don't want you to win. I hate you when I see you on Sunday, whatever tier that is. You can put the bills in their own special hate tier if you really want to. I would understand it if you're a Jets fan. But then just leave the Packers in this tier of like, OK, if they win, if they win the Super Bowl, I'm not sitting here rooting for it along with my wife. But like that is an acceptable and pleasant outcome to the season. It's not as nice as if my Jets won the Super Bowl, but that is a pleasant outcome. Everything's fine here. I don't have to be pissed off that, you know, X, Y, Z, other AFC team won.

1:12:15Robert Mays: Yeah, I think that it is in any relationship. It's OK to just kind of be like a supportive voice in something, even if it's not totally your thing. Like my wife and I, thankfully, we have a lot of the same tastes like movies that we I love. She tends to love and vice versa. But there are some things like I'll go to a concert that she's really excited about that I don't necessarily care about because I'm trying to be supportive. Like you can do that here. You don't have to be the biggest fan, whatever's going on. I don't expect you to be celebrating if the Packers win the Super Bowl, but sitting next to your wife as she does and being happy for her, I think is a more than reasonable way to approach this.

1:12:52Robert Mays: The last thing I'll say here, Rob and his wife had a daughter and he was actually sending this email the day after she was born. So I wanted to say congratulations to you guys. That is wonderful. I appreciate you still being engaged with the show as all that is happening. and I appreciate everyone who sent in the questions, not only for this show, but for all of the mailbags that we have done this off season. The only reason that we do them and lean into them the way that we do is because of how good the questions are and because of how engaged you guys are sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time to send those in.

1:13:24Robert Mays: We are officially at the start of training camp. Our next show will be a training camp preview of sorts. We're going to be talking about the biggest questions we have as camps kick off, which they do, I believe next Wednesday is when actual practices will be starting, but I'll be on the road starting tomorrow and for the foreseeable future. So very excited to bring some stuff straight from camps to you guys, talk to some of our beat writers and just get going with what the early season NFL stuff looks like on the athletic football show for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening.

1:14:00Robert Mays: We'll talk to you very soon.

1:14:15Robert Mays: We'll see you next time.

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