The most interesting teams of the offseason, part 2: Chiefs, Vikings and Colts

0:03Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Our most interesting teams of the offseason series rolls on today. We've got three teams with a lot to weigh as we get into the offseason. Two teams with questions of quarterback, the Indianapolis Colts and the Minnesota Vikings. We chatted with James Boyd and Alec Lewis, our writers for those teams respectively today. Also sat down for the first time with our Chiefs writer here at The Athletic, Jesse Newell, about a pretty different feeling offseason for the Kansas City Chiefs. Picking in the top 10, a lot of different things for them to be mulling over at this time of year that they are not typically talking or thinking about.

0:42Robert Mays: So very excited to dig into these three teams. Really enjoyed these conversations. Let's get to it right now.

0:54Robert Mays: joining us now our first conversation from here on i guess it's radio row it's still radio row here at the nfl combine it is our chiefs writer at the athletic jesse newell your athletic football show debut i believe a little nervous a little shaky but we'll get there yes yeah this is great i'm i'm gonna shepherd you just fine we'll be great here typically the chiefs would not be involved in a conversation like this. Bellar, we've done this. I call him Barnwell every single time I mention his name. Bellar, how many times have we done this? Three or four times, right?

1:24Jesse Newell: This is my fourth combine with you. We've done it every year.

1:28Robert Mays: And the Chiefs have never been one of these teams. Because how could the Chiefs possibly be one of the most interesting teams of the offseason? They either were in the Super Bowl or just won the Super Bowl seemingly every single year. A little bit of a different story right now.

1:40Alec Lewis: A lot going on, yeah. The 6-11 record, which was a shock, obviously, to start with. but a top 10 pick. Yeah. I mean, they really worked on that down the end of the stretch of the season to get to that top 10 pick. Had a lot of work to do and got there. But, yeah, the first one, I mean, this is the highlight of the offseason or what you always say is, like, their first top 10 pick since Patrick Mahomes in 2017. And even that they had to trade up together. They had to trade up both. Like, to get to this point in any other draft, to get to, like, the ninth pick, they would have to trade, like, four first round picks.

2:08Alec Lewis: So this is a different opportunity, but, like you said, different potential for the Chiefs, And they have to kind of figure out their trajectory from here moving forward. The 6-11 season, we can talk about a little bit fluky, a little bit maybe not quite as bad as it seems on the surface. But with the moves they've made, the free agents they've signed recently and what they've got to do with their cap, there's a lot to do this offseason.

2:26Robert Mays: Yeah, I don't think that the final record is indicative of how bad things actually were. And at the same time, you look at a team like the Eagles, for example. When you are one of these mainstay teams, it does actually benefit you to bottom out one year. Because you know you're going to be relevant every single year. And so getting a top 10 pick, you might as well just have it be as bad as possible. The year where the Chiefs fired Doug Peterson was one of those years. They get Devontae Smith because of that. Like having one of these overall and like the trajectory of the franchise isn't necessarily a bad thing.

2:55Robert Mays: At the same time, I want to just talk about last season for like two minutes. Sure. What do you think in what was a down year and a disappointing year are the lessons that the Chiefs should take from the 2025 season? And what are the lessons you think they will take from the 2025 season?

3:11Alec Lewis: Well, I'm probably more aligned with them than most people because I think Andy Reid, we know he's going to throw the football. We know that that's part of what they do. And you have Patrick Mahomes, you should throw the football. That sort of thing. But the lack of explosives that we saw, I know we've talked a lot or we've heard, had a lot of discussion about the explosive nature of teams and how you can get these big chunk plays. The Chiefs didn't have that last year. They had a little bit early on. They tried to throw the ball deep, but running back especially. You know, they had one 20-plus yard run from a running back all year.

3:38Alec Lewis: Mahomes had two. So, like, the quarterback is leading you in that. That is not a good thing. They can't not address this anymore. I think it got a little unlucky last year when it came to the draft. It looked like the fourth-round pick was going to be that. And then if you look at the board that went off on the board on the fourth round before their pick, it was just running back. Caleb Sampson. I mean, just all these guys. ET and all these guys they potentially could have taken, and they sort of struck out. So, they can't strike out this year. If they clear some free agency room, you would think that they're going to go get a starting running back just to kind of clear their base needs.

4:06Alec Lewis: It's kind of the biggest thing that they need, I would think, in free agency. But that's the number one thing. Defensively, again, a little bit of a fluky thing. But I think for them, pass rusher, you know, they could not get home at opportune times. And I looked this up on True Media. It was kind of a stat I couldn't believe when I looked at it. But the Chiefs, when you look at just scenarios, it's a small scenario, but fourth quarter, third downs, one score games. They were 35 points worse on defense in those scenarios than they were the year before. They were, I think it was second in the NFL in 2024 in that situation, 32nd in the NFL in 2025.

4:37Alec Lewis: so it's clutch situations it's those minor details I talk about but so many times they were so close to getting a sack and couldn't quite get there so uh George Karloftis was hurt part of the year Chris Jones had a good year not a great year but they need more help on the defensive line I think if you get a little bit more pressure some of these things go away I think on defense I'm fine

4:54Robert Mays: with this is these are our base principles we just need to be a little bit better personnel yes the offense I think that you can look at this one of two ways and we've kind of taken both views on it as we've talked about this team over the course of the season what you're saying there is we need better personnel at certain positions. We need a more explosive running back. I think big bodied receiver is another thing like on the perimeter that this team could use, which we can talk about. But I think there are also structural, if not concerns, then considerations for maybe where this team should go from here.

5:21Robert Mays: I think this offseason, the soft firing of Matt Nagy gives you a chance to potentially pivot to maybe an offensive coordinator from a slightly different background that can incorporate some newer ideas into this offense. Instead, Instead, they go back and get Eric Biennium.

5:35Alec Lewis: I was going to say offensive coordinator because it's an Andy Reid offense.

5:37Robert Mays: And so that's the question is like, how much of this do you think they'll try to solve by just changing out certain elements of the personnel? And how much do you think in the building they believe that maybe it's time for a little bit of self-reflection for the ideas that permeate this offense?

5:53Alec Lewis: It's a really good question. It's the question of the offseason. You know, I know there's been people out there and Mitchell Schwartz, you know, former Chiefs guys talked with you guys about this whole thing. and he's been very vocal about that as well. I don't think in the building they believe it's huge monumental changes. I think they think it's tweaks. And then, like I said, talking about some of the close game stuff, I mean, they went 1-10 in close games, which we know it's not going to repeat again. What's crazy to me is if you look at the numbers, I did this. Anthony Reinhardt runs Stat Butler online.

6:21Alec Lewis: He has some great data visualizations. And I pulled up for this Chiefs review of the season, and it's crazy if you look at it. like the orange is the top when it comes to like 80th percentile and higher for offensive EPA. And before they lost both tackles in week 13, like it's just orange, orange, orange, orange on the offense. So it's crazy because it becomes this sort of revisionist history that like this offense was not good all year. When in fact, I mean, Patrick Williams was pulling some rabbits out of his hat. We knew he scrambled more early on to kind of take advantage of not having receivers and doing what he could.

6:52Alec Lewis: But like their offense was like it was second in EPA after week 13 in the NFL, like only behind the Colts who obviously had their same sort of collapse as well. So I think for Andy Reed and this takes confidence in yourself, he sort of said, I'm sticking with what I do and what I'm good at now. Is that what they should do? I mean, listen, there's always ideas out there. Like we know the Rams are going 13 personnel heavy and they're using tight ends in a creative way. And we know the 49ers succeed in the way that they do, but like this is an Andy Reed offense. And this is Andy Reed kind of going out on, you know, last few years here on, on his term.

7:25Alec Lewis: So I don't think there's going to be monumental changes. I don't think that Andy Reid has indicated that there's going to be that. They need fresh ideas. They need new things to kind of study up on. But at the end of the day, like, again, this is, it's such a weird season because I just feel like, I keep using this example, but I feel like the Chiefs last year, they had 11 on Blackjack, and we're seeing a six, and then the dealer gets a 21. And then they had 11, and the dealer showed five, and they doubled down, and the dealer hits 20. And it's like, man, your strategy is wrong. What are you doing?

7:54Alec Lewis: It's like, well, kind of, but like things just sort of didn't turn out for him. And injuries played a big part in that. So I think they're sticking to what they have. I think there's a discussion to be had about more new ideas, especially in the run game. I think the run game could use a refresh and them getting more explosiveness there. But I don't think this is an overhaul. I don't think it's Andy Reid changing what he does because, again, he's comfortable with his own skin. What he's done has worked for a long, long time.

8:15Robert Mays: That is my understanding of it as well. And talking to people even over the last 24 hours or so about because they have some newer faces on the coaching staff that aren't just Eric Bien-Ami. I think there's been a little bit of turnover. I think that my understanding is that it will be a lot of the same stuff and that most of this will be driven by changes in personnel. And then the question becomes, what do those changes in personnel look like? So far, we've had already a couple cap moves that the Chiefs have made even before the combine has kicked off. They restructured Mahomes' deal. That saves them about$40 million against the cap.

8:45Robert Mays: They cut my Dana yesterday. That saved them, I think, like$7-ish or so million. I think it was$8.9 million. right around there. And then that still puts them at$3 million over the cap. And so if they're going to use free agency as a tool to add a couple of these guys, they're still going to need to free up some more money. Where do you think some of that money can come from to maybe get them at like 15,$20 million number that they might need to add a couple of guys?

9:08Alec Lewis: Well, I think the first one right off the bat is Jawan Taylor. They can save$20 million with him. And they have Jalen Moore as they signed a year ago at this time for a two-year contract. So he was serviceable when he was healthy in there and i just think juwan taylor can be an elite player but with the penalties or the history he's had and the ability for them to get out from under that that's an obvious move to start with they've got some restructured candidates now where they which direction they go with those guys is sort of interesting like creed humphrey is one george karloftis is one potentially you can move that money up and then chris jones is another but he's a player at you know starting to be in the 30s where you're like okay do you want to space this money out or is this a guy where you want to leave yourself some flexibility for next year if he has a down year to say, we can potentially move on from you and take the salary cut, take the salary in that particular one and save some of that dead money charge.

9:59Alec Lewis: So kind of fascinating with those guys. And then one we have to talk about, this would not be an issue if they didn't resign so many guys lately like Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith and Nick Bolton, but Trent McDuffie, the Trent McDuffie situation is a big one that looms over this season because if they are not going to sign him to a long-term contract, And if they do, they can obviously save some money there. But if they're not going to, now's the time to trade him. And his value should be pretty high to teams out there. And there's other teams out there kind of like redoing the Tyreek Hill trade from a few years back, where a team will give that guy a max contract and be happy to sign him, happy to have him.

10:33Alec Lewis: And it could fit better under another team's salary cap. So you could save$13 million there potentially if you trade him. How do you think that resolves?

10:40Robert Mays: Do you think that they have the appetite to give him that sort of long-term deal? Or do you think in their minds, it might be more attractive to get something for him?

10:46Alec Lewis: It's a fascinating one because if there's anybody that's the chiefs are stars and scrubs, like they are top of the market in center at guard at quarterback at kicker at, you know, middle linebacker, almost at Chris Jones, like they pay their players and then they fill the rest of the roster with draft picks. The one position they historically have not given extensions to though is cornerback. And they have an added advantage of Steve Spagnuolo and the Dave Merritt, their cornerbacks coach, they seem to find these guys. They really do. Their top free agent right now going into this offseason is Jalen Watson, who a seventh-round pick, they developed through their system, and now he's an outside corner who could play for anybody.

11:22Robert Mays: How many times has that happened, where you have these guys drafted in the fourth round or later by these teams, or a guy like Traveris Ward, who was undrafted, I believe, right? Yep. And so now you have all of these guys that were day three or later picks making upwards of$15 million or more a year in free agency. This will be the third time in the last five years this has happened, right? And then LeJarious Sneed is another one they traded. Sneed, Ward, and him.

11:43Alec Lewis: Yeah. And they don't – it almost feels like if you have the ability at a position to turn straw into gold, you just go back to Spags and say, I totally understand that. Straw into gold, buddy. Like, it's time. And not to mention, like, Steve is really good, too, at, like, finding the Chris Roland Walses of the world who are, like, these undrafted free agents. And then all of a sudden they're in the rotation and they're playing slot for you, playing a little bit of safety. And, like, they're fitting in and they're not – it's not a huge drop-off. So, I mean, you don't want to put too much on Spag's plate, obviously, but he seems to have this ability along with Dave Merritt, who develops corners great, probably a future defensive coordinator at some point.

12:18Alec Lewis: Dave Merritt, the Chiefs cornerbacks coach, defensive backs coach, he's really well respected, but they seem to have a factory there to be doing that. So they loved him. I mean, Trent McDuffie is 10 out of 10 on the field, 10 out of 10 off the field. Like the only thing he doesn't have is the ideal size and ball skills, but like everything else, on field, off field, what you want from a leader, amazing. So, you know, I was even talking with guys last night, like the Rams at 29, they have a couple of first round draft picks. They have some cap space. Like if you're the Rams, you offer the Chiefs 29 for McDuffie.

12:47Alec Lewis: I mean, that seems to make sense to me for both sides. And then the Chiefs can address some of these needs that they have in the offseason because they have limited free agent dollars. But they're going to have to address their roster in some way. A late first round pick would do wonders for them in that particular regard.

12:59Robert Mays: And if you look at it, they probably can figure out like a workable secondary without him based on the guys they currently have on the roster. Like no Williams flashed a little bit last year as an outside corner. They still have Christian Fulton. They've got a couple options in the slot. You mentioned Chris Wallace when they were a little bit smaller. He was in there last year, but Jamari Connors played in there a ton. That makes safety a need rather than corner. And so there's a lot of moving parts, but you can imagine a world without him. And I think a couple of years ago, it kind of would have been crazy to think that like he seemed like an ascending, he still is a great player, Trent McDuffie, but it seemed like he was like an ascending all pro unbelievably valuable.

13:33Robert Mays: There's no way we're ever letting him leave the building sort of player. And I think that has shifted a little bit.

13:38Alec Lewis: Yes, absolutely. And he's, listen, the Chiefs, ideally what he plays is slot corner because he's a great blitzer. And, you know, it allows him to play to a skill set. But they don't have him do that anymore. They wanted, ideally, to have, they signed Christian Fulton last offseason, like, put him outside, put Jalen Watson outside, let Trent McDuffie be that chess piece in the middle and just weaponize him in that way. And then Christian Fulton was hurt, never got caught up with the playbook. and then like it just never materialized. You know what I mean? So that's the tough part about this. But like I said, I think the good thing for another team, like the Rams or whoever, is it's sometimes you're trading for a player and you're like, I wonder what they know about him that I don't know.

14:16Alec Lewis: Like what's going on off the field? And that's just not it with Trent McDuffie. Like it's obvious. It's their cap space and it's their potential to be able to turn these guys around and not always have to have first round draft picks, you know, produced for them in the secondary. So I think it makes a lot of sense for the Chiefs. Will they do it or not? I don't know because they give extensions to so many of their own guys. Maybe they make a way to make it work with Trent McDuffie because of all that he means for them. But it is a complicated one. And at The Athletic, we had written about the Ravens, the Bengals, and the Chiefs.

14:47Alec Lewis: Like, what can you do to restart, re-jumpstart, get yourself back into NFL contention, Super Bowl contention? And that was the one I said for the Chiefs. Like, it was very tough for them after they lost to the Bengals in the NFC Championship game a few years back to trade Tyreek Hill. but it felt like kind of a moment where you could do it and feel like this was sort of the change to something else. And it would be kind of funny because the Tyreek Hill trade helped bring back Trent McDuffie. Now the Trent McDuffie trade could potentially help bring back somebody else that starts them on their next run.

15:12Robert Mays: So let's say hypothetically they cut Jalen, they cut, they cut John Taylor. Let's say they move on from Trent McDuffie. We're looking at 25 to 30 ish million dollars in cap space. At that point, you mentioned running back. Do you feel like, cause I think everybody wants to drop like a breeze hall onto this team or like a Kenneth Walker onto this team to really give them as much juice as possible at that position. Do you think there is a world where they get that aggressive? And when it comes to the top of the running back market and free agency, or do you think that the ultimately, do you think ultimately the direction they go is more modest than that?

15:43Alec Lewis: I think probably more modest than that. And the good thing for them is that the running back depth, the free agency is just crazy. It's really good. I mean, Travis ETN for them, like he would be a God right now. It doesn't have to be Brees Hall,

15:58Robert Mays: you know, that matters is not kareem hunts that's that's all that matters for some fan bases you would need a guy like a breeze hall to get people excited this guy would get a key to the city he would get a key

16:08Alec Lewis: to the city like this guy is the best running back they've seen in you know and listen i mean i want to caveat like isaiah pacheco the injuries just caught up he had he had two fine first years you know what i mean and you can win super bowls i think the chiefs we go down there starting running back and all these super bowls they've won like who's the who's the best one i mean

16:25Robert Mays: One of the biggest mistakes of this regime is chasing a running back unnecessarily.

16:29Alec Lewis: Which is also, we have to mention that when we talk about the first round with the Chiefs. There is history of them taking a running back in the first round and it completely blowing up on them. One of the worst moves I think they would admit that they've made. So you can't ignore that history when we're talking about the Jeremiah Love thing. But knowing their needs and what they have, I think Brett Veet's the Chiefs GM. What he loves to do in the offseason, he loves to base cover his needs so he doesn't go into the draft saying, I'm painted in a corner. I have to take this position. I think it's a really wise, good way to bring about value.

17:00Alec Lewis: The Chiefs have also, since Clyde Ortelaire, valued premium positions early. And we understand the math on this because I just told you, what is Travis ETN going to cost you if you get him in free agency? What is that cost going to be compared to if you draft Jeremiah Love and immediately his four-year contract is$32 million guaranteed? Why not sign ETN to that and then get yourself a free first-round pick who potentially can bring surplus value at edge rusher, at tackle, at receiver, whatever the case may be. So I think it makes sense for the Chiefs somewhere in the ETN aisle where it would be good for them.

17:33Alec Lewis: It would be a huge upgrade. Fans would be excited. And it's still probably not shopping at the Brees Hall, top of the market, designer fashion potential mall that need it. And that would still be an upgrade for them and would still bring about explosiveness, which is what they need from that run.

17:47Robert Mays: Yeah, I think that the running back economics, you laid them out perfectly. It's like there's real opportunity costs for taking a running back in the top 10. And even if we think that Jeremiah Love is a fantastic prospect, we've never seen him play football in the NFL. So giving a guy like a Travis Etienne who maybe has a lower ceiling, but there's absolutely some more certainty there because we know what he can be in the league. I think that's a tradeoff that you might be willing to make because it gives you other opportunities and pathways with that ninth overall pick. You mentioned this team still needs a pass rusher.

18:14Robert Mays: Like there are a bunch of needs at premium positions or enough needs at premium positions. We're filling the running back and free agency and then using the draft, have a little bit more flexibility, I think is the right mindset.

18:24Alec Lewis: Real quick, a year ago, like to the day when we talked to me to this day, it was so interesting because we were talking about left tackle. How are they going to fix left tackle? They never get a top pick. How are they going to fix left tackle? And he said, I brought up with Andy Reid, chief coach. He's like, I know exactly how to fix this. Suck for a year, get a top five pick, get a left tackle. Like they've never had this opportunity. So anyway, they get Josh Simmons, and when healthy, when in, he was good. But this is the sort of opportunity the Chiefs never get. And so it was hard for me to see them getting a top-ten pick, first time since 2017, and taking a safety, taking a running back.

18:58Alec Lewis: It'd be like they never get the crack at the starting right tackle for the next five years or the receiver that is the next whoever. That's the top of the market instead of trading up in the second round because you see something you think in or she writes that other teams don't see. So they played this well against since Clyde Ward's lair. I'd expect him to do it again because this is the type of edge rusher, offensive tackle, wide receiver. They never get to scout and then take without trading up and using multiple first round picks. So I would look for them to take in one of those positions because they understand the value of surplus value, especially with the team that takes is at the end of the first round every single year.

19:33Alec Lewis: So we can talk through some of these guys, but I would expect those three positions most likely. And if they can secure that for the long-term future, then that's going to help them out for years to come.

19:41Robert Mays: In terms of free agent money, I think running back does make sense. And the other spot that we've talked about a bunch is just like a big-bodied perimeter receiver on this team that they have not had in a long time. Because even if Hershey Rice is a bigger receiver, that's not how he's used, right? He's an inside guy. He's a space player. And he's been very good and productive in that role when he's been asked to do it. But they've really missed somebody that it's third and seven. We're playing against a team that plays a decent amount of man coverage and plays it well. Is there somebody we can go to?

20:08Robert Mays: and it's funny because the guy I kept coming back to when we were discussing kind of just the hypothetical archetype for who could fill something like that was always Jawan Jennings I was like they need like a Jawan Jennings type receiver within their offense Jawan Jennings is a free agent they could just get Jawan Jennings if they wanted to go take the Jawan Jennings but that archetype of player do you think that's a fair do you think that thought is fair that like that is a type of guy within this offense that could maybe bridge the gap of even if we're not going to change a lot schematically this is going to allow us to kind of overcome a weakness that's crept in over the last couple years.

20:38Alec Lewis: So a couple years ago, I did a story about the Chiefs type at receiver and you're right. The type for them at receiver is short, fast, short burst. If you listen to the show, you understand how it drives Derek insane every single year. But it is like playing the video game on hard mode. Like, you can bury this, you know? Like, you can have one guy in the red zone who can come down with a contested catch. You know, historically, Patrick Williams has not been a contested catch toward a thrower. He did more last year. Instead, one of his kind of goals was to trust his guys. And so you've seen that more.

21:05Alec Lewis: Man coverage was a huge issue last year, them beating man coverage. So absolutely, you could see that. But as far as like base level needs go, the question becomes draft or free agency. And if you look at the Chiefs, like Rasheed Rice just had more off-field stuff pop up in the offseason. What do you think happens with that? All I can tell you is the Chiefs love him on the field. I mean, they love his skill set, yards per outrun, all these metrics show. And he's so good after the catch. They always talk about how he's a running back after the catch. And they love his skill set there. But to bring him back on another contract, you would really have to have a conversation with the owner and say, I'm vouching for this guy.

21:43Alec Lewis: And right now, that's a tough conversation to have in the last year of his deal. So I don't know. I know the Chiefs love him on the field. But can he be trusted off of it? I think that's a legitimate question. And if they do, that'll be a press conference that, you know, some questions will be asked for sure.

21:59Robert Mays: Other areas of need when you look at free agency. Brian Cook is a free agent. And so safety seems to be a spot where they would need another body heading into this year. It's a year. And you mentioned running back. A couple of the needs for the Chiefs and free agency are the spots where there is a lot of options. There's a lot of, what is the word I'm looking for? There's a lot of supply at safety and free agency this year. And so that's a spot where I could see them signing a guy to maybe like a mid-level contract to find a starter. Any other needs positionally that are at front of mind for you with this team?

22:29Alec Lewis: Again, I'm kind of combining the draft with it. But when you talk defensive line, they've got to get out of their rut of like re-signing 34-year-old dudes on the defensive interior. And when you talk Brian Cook, it's a really good point you made because I was even looking up True Media yesterday. And like when he's on the field and when he's off the field, how teams had like 1.1 yards per rush more when he was off the field. There was the Cowboys game. If you remember, he went out with an injury. And then like five plays later, the Cowboys hit on a huge run. And it's like this is not a coincidence.

22:59Alec Lewis: Brian Cook's big skill down this particular year especially was he got guys on the ground. So he was taking – He's a fantastic tackler. He was making up for a bunch of the deficiencies the Chiefs had on their defensive line. And, you know, Chris Jones is great for rushing the passer. He's not great the run game. But whoever has been next to him has not been good. And I know Omar Norman a lot. He's kind of been a pass rusher guy. He got hurt last year, so he'll be back. But they could really use just – probably in the draft. Some young – they never seem to dart throw this, but they need a younger guy who can be a run stopper to get out of the Derek naughty, Mike Pinnell, endless cycle of guys that just haven't been working out as a veteran.

23:34Alec Lewis: So I could see them, especially like a later round draft pick or even a mid level draft pick doing that. Or if they find somebody in free agency potentially, but I think we hit on them, you know, running back receiver. The question to me in the draft is like, if one of these tackles, if you think they're going to still be a tackle falls to them, if they just like we talked about last year, They never get the swing at the top tackle in the draft. What if you could set and secure your offensive line for Patrick Mahomes for like three to four years with Simmons, Suamata Ia, Humphrey, Trey Smith, and then Maui Goa or whoever, you know, Fanoa or whatever on the right side.

24:10Alec Lewis: So I think that would be an enticing thing. But I think their base needs, you know, if they're going to get them mostly covered, I'd look defensive line, I would look running back, and then receiver at some point. But probably not as far away as some people would think based off a 6-11 record, but still so much to do with not as much cap space as previous years.

24:26Robert Mays: A different sort of feel to this Chiefs offseason. I am looking forward to the parade that they are going to throw in this. I'm Travis UTN in free agency. Jesse Newell, great to get you on the show, my friend. Appreciate the time. We'll talk to you very soon. Hey, I appreciate it. All right, before we get to Alec, let's take our first quick break.

24:46Robert Mays: Joining us now from Radio Row here in Indianapolis, it is our Vikings writer at The Athletic, Alec Lewis. How you doing, buddy? I'm great, Robert.

24:53Jesse Newell: Good to be here. I've looked forward to this week for a couple weeks now. I can't wait to go through it and see where things are with this organization that happens to be in a very, very interesting spot. I don't even know where to start this conversation.

25:08Robert Mays: Wherever you want to start. Let's just start with the practical realities of what the next month or two might look like for the Vikings. This is probably the most boring place to start, but it's where my notes begin and why not? Okay. The Vikings are$43 million over the cap as things currently stand. They need a quarterback. They'd have other needs. How do they, how do the, how does the money get handled in your mind to give them a little bit of flexibility heading into the year?

25:33Jesse Newell: Yeah, I think the cap and them being 43 million over the cap on paper, it doesn't look great, but if you look at the amount of levers they have to pull to create space and create room, there are a bunch of them. You could restructure Justin Jefferson's contract, Jonathan Grenard's contract, Andrew Van Ginkle, Byron Murphy, Will Fry. Some of these guys you'd want to do that. Some of these guys you wouldn't. But there are a lot of levers from just the restructure component of it. And then there are going to be some interesting conversations on players like Aaron Jones, Javon Hargrave, potentially Jonathan Allen, Ryan Kelly as potential cuts.

26:13Jesse Newell: And then there's also extension conversations for a guy like right tackle Brian O 'Neal. So a lot of ways for them to get above the cap. But you're right. You got to talk about the quarterback need. You've got to talk about if you were to cut Aaron Jones, didn't need a running back.

26:26Robert Mays: Well, that's the problem with this is that you can do all of these things. You can move on from a bunch of these guys. But then if you're the Vikings, it kind of puts you back in the exact same position you were in last spring. And then now you have no money to go out and find other players at those positions.

26:41Jesse Newell: It's exactly right. Fortunately, different than last year when they had four picks in the draft, they have projected to be nine this year. So that is helpful. Four of them are supposed to be in the top 100. A critical component to add youth to a roster that's just getting older and older year by year. And like that's really what's there are a lot of things fascinating about this team. But really, one of the primary components that makes them so interesting is you're trying to really straddle like this quarterback development world with this veteran aging roster win now coaches that squeeze everything out of the roster world.

27:19Jesse Newell: And doing that at the same time, you could spin it in one way. And we did prior to last season as like you buoy the young quarterback at the highest level. But you could also spin it the other way of that adds a lot of pressure to the quarterback and forces him to be ready at a certain time. And you never really know on the continuum development when that time is going to be.

27:38Robert Mays: So that's part of my concern and my issue with the approach to the team build last year is that the needle that you were trying to thread became extremely small based on those two competing timelines. If you're going to be signing these guys who are on to a 32, 33 year old players, I mean, the best case scenario is you have them through 2027 and you have to compete for 2027. But with the age of some of those guys, the Hargraves and the Allens, your hope would be you're competitive in 2026. And that means the quarterback immediately has to get you in a place where you're competitive. That did not happen.

28:09Robert Mays: And so now we're in a place where there's a huge quarterback question with this team. And just to be clear, and I've said this a bunch of different times, but I think people are still missing it. The idea that you would give up on J.J. McCarthy after last year is crazy. If you think about the quarterback landscape over the last several seasons and how many guys we've seen break out a little bit later, I don't think J.J. McCarthy is some lost cause, even if last year was disappointing. At the same time, if you were the Minnesota Vikings with the considerations of the age of the rest of the roster, but also everyone in that building, I don't think you can walk into this year and say, well, we're just going to hope that JJ figures it out.

28:47Robert Mays: I would be shocked if that was the approach. And I just don't think it will be at that position.

28:52Jesse Newell: Yeah, I'm glad you clarify that and say it that way. Like, you know, Vikings fans are very passionate about wanting JJ to have as much time as possible as they should be. This is the first time they drafted a quarterback in the top 10. They drafted him 10th. He got hurt his first year, missed it with a torn meniscus. Then he played in 10 games last year with a handful of injuries. But there were flashes. Like, I think that's the one. This is literally the team that employed Sam Darnold. Exactly.

29:18Robert Mays: This is the team that did it.

29:19Jesse Newell: Like, and I laugh all the time because there's so many different ways to look at it. One way that people often talk about is like, look what, you look at Sam's arc. But Sam's Ark happened six years in his career. The Vikings right now can't afford to wait four more years because you have a head coach in Kevin O 'Connell who will be entering his fifth season without having won a playoff game underneath an ownership and an organization that wants to be in it every single year.

29:48Robert Mays: So just fire the general manager, which even if there's a lot that goes into that, I do think that it increases the urgency across the rest of the building. No question.

29:55Jesse Newell: But your point is correct. like the Vikings have been very forward since the season ended. They want at a bare minimum competition for JJ McCarthy. It leads you into the question though, can you get the requisite quarterback insurance and build the quarterback room the way you want to build it? Unless you're guaranteeing that potential free agent or trade a certain amount of role or guaranteed position. And so you lost out on Daniel Jones last year. Exactly. And Daniel Jones, like that situation, I'll just clear it as best as I can. everybody in the building wanted to bring back Daniel Jones. They were willing to offer him as much, if not more, than Indianapolis.

30:32Jesse Newell: They had him in the building, and they believed that because he was exposed to their system and their culture, he would return. That was a little bit of a miscalculation because of the circumstance he chose in Indianapolis, but him choosing Indianapolis really set the table for the lack of insurance they had at quarterback throughout the season. And so any repeat of that process would be a disastrous look and circumstance for a team that just can't afford it right now.

31:00Robert Mays: So how aggressive do you think the quarterback solution ends up being? Because I think that you can do it on a bunch of different levels. You can bring in somebody that is a veteran that's like, OK, he's here for support and maybe a little bit of competition. Or you could bring in somebody that is clearly a tier above a guy like J.J. McCarthy. And it's like, no, based on the investment we're putting in this guy, he's going to be the starter. So across that spectrum of possible solutions, where do you think the Vikings ultimately land with how they build out that room?

31:27Jesse Newell: I would say the most likely outcome to me right now is the veteran who can add competition, who you would trust if they were thrust in the game. Because if you look at this— That's a pretty tepid solution. It is a tepid solution, no question. But I think part of it is the if you were to replace J.J. McCarthy at this point, you would need a solution that you would feel great about for multiple seasons. And I'm not sure if one exists. Now, you can have the conversation about like a Kyler Murray. Could he in this system with this infrastructure and this staff and these skill players maximize who he is?

32:03Jesse Newell: Like, I think there's an argument to be made there. There's an argument to be made. If you trade a second round pick for Mac Jones, he steps in. He's had success with Josh McDaniels in the past, who was close with Kevin, and there's some crossover in the system. Like that is a valid and viable circumstance too. But you would really be declaring at that point, the J.J. McCarthy experience, experiment, be totally put on the back burner. And that is a drastic declaration. Now, if there were like a CJ Stroud option out there, then you might be more inclined to go that path. It's just hard to believe that a team like that or a team like Cincinnati would move off the quarterbacks they have at the positions that they're in.

32:48Robert Mays: This is so interesting because there's so many different considerations with this. One, I think that by doing the half measure solution, you potentially solve nothing. And I think that to me feels like the most likely outcome if you're going to go the veteran route. But I also understand not wanting to show everyone you're giving up on JJ now. But I think that still might be the best approach for where this team is at this moment. It's hard to eat that. But at the same time, I still think it might be the right thing to do where, all right, Mac Jones is the starter. Whatever that says about JJ doesn't really matter.

33:21Robert Mays: We need to make sure that we're winning games. Like, I still think in my soul, that might be the better approach.

33:27Jesse Newell: No question. But then the argument to that is, so you get a Mac Jones, you're winning games, but like to what end? Yeah. To what end? I understand that. And the whole purpose and direction of going this path that they've gone down with JJ McCarthy has been to get to the place that they've never been able to get to. But I my spin in many ways has been regardless of what they do here, whether it's the tepid solution or the full time solution. what what should be the focus is let's maximize the defense to no end and let's maximize the run game to no end and that that way the floor is where it is regardless of the circumstance i don't know again how far that ultimately gets you but i think some of their decisions thus far have shown you that that is probably part of the path that they're going to take regardless just a couple

34:12Robert Mays: things a couple notes about the quarterback stuff we talked about this uh two weeks ago when we were still doing shows. I had not thought a lot about the prices in the market. And I was pretty wrong about them after talking to people in the league. Like you mentioned a day to pick for Mac Jones because of how cheap the contract is. It does seem like that's about where it would land, like a day to pick and change for somebody like Mac Jones. And with Kyler and talking to people about that, I didn't really realize how much of the 2027 deal became guaranteed, like in the next couple weeks or so. 20 million.

34:43Robert Mays: It's like 20-ish million. And so I think that in a vacuum would probably scare off enough teams where he would be released. The problem with that is because the market is so dry other than Kyler Murray, I think there's still a potential chance a team gives up a pick, even if it's a late round pick, because there just aren't many other options available. And so those were not the values we were discussing a couple weeks ago. I have reset and level set on those and have a better understanding of them now. So I'd like to apologize about that.

35:10Jesse Newell: I think, too, like you hear the names of like a Geno Smith. And can you imagine him throwing the ball down the field in this offense? I mean, it could be my next question for you.

35:19Robert Mays: If it is the veteran option who is coming in to give competition, what does that ultimately look like? Because I think the two names that would come to mind for me, if Geno is released, I'd be curious to see what Geno could do within this offense. But also Kirk Cousins got released about 10 minutes before we started recording this. So those are the probably the two names that come to mind for me.

35:38Jesse Newell: Yeah, I mean, the Kirk Cousins one is a no-brainer in a lot of respects. Like, I don't know if you've gone back and watched the tape from the last four games that he won with the Falcons or what have you. But it was, I mean, it wasn't Kirk in what he was in 2023 before the Achilles, but it was viable. He was going through progressions. He was throwing the ball downfield. It seemed like he had such command of that offense. And his relationship is still good with Kevin O 'Connell. He loved Minnesota. His family loves Minnesota. so depending on what the market is for him I see that as viable for sure the Geno one less certain for me but to your point the idea of him airing it out 25 yards down the field to jump all situations to Justin Jefferson is is easy to imagine a world where you could produce the way that Sam Darnold did in many ways in this offense and if you get that level of quarterback play and the defense is where it is and the run game's even more improved and the offensive line is healthy and better, there is a path to being a double-digit win team and then you see from there.

36:43Jesse Newell: But yeah, if it's the more tepid strategy, Kirk Cousins, Geno Smith, that's where my mind goes for sure.

36:50Robert Mays: The Geno thing is just compelling to me on so many different levels. One, I have to choose to believe that there is a version of Geno still out there that would look better than he did last year. you have to come to terms with he was bad last year. He was really bad last year in a terrible circumstance. So there's a lot going on there. The other part of it is, imagine the closing of the Sam Darnold-Gino Smith circle if Gino went to Minnesota and played well next year for the Vikings.

37:14Jesse Newell: Well, it's funny that you mentioned Gino. I went back and watched the table the last couple weeks, and there was a game against Chicago where Kevin Byard had two picks on dagger that he's just stepping right in. I'm like, why does he keep throwing this? Kevin Byard is right there. So it was a bad year.

37:29Robert Mays: Yeah, it was. But it was a terrible situation. And so it's hard to see. How much of it is that? If you put him back into a different situation, does he play better? I have no idea. I have to choose to believe that there is still a version of Geno Smith left out there that can play better than he did last year.

37:42Jesse Newell: You said this, but it would be a fascinating experiment of like you pluck a guy from this place. You put him in this quarterback environment. Now you put him in this one. What does it look like? I mean, that's definitely going to be interesting. And I haven't been surprised because the Vikings still went 9-8 and the culture is still where it is. But talking to people in the league, like this opportunity and this position is still a really coveted position from all of these guys. Like to get in the Vikings organization with Kevin O 'Connell, with Justin Jefferson, is still a really valuable thing viewed by agents and teams in the league.

38:16Jesse Newell: It's more a question of how committed are they still to J.J. McCarthy. That's what you get a lot of when you talk to people. And it's a little murky in that it just in where they are with that.

38:27Robert Mays: We don't have to rehash the quizzy stuff in terms of why it happened. The question I have for you is, as we sit on kind of the precipice of free agency in the draft here, how do you think the Vikings approach in roster building over the next two months will be different because Quazy isn't there? And now I assume Kevin O 'Connell is going to have a larger voice and like how some of this stuff is shaped.

38:47Jesse Newell: Yeah, I imagine Kevin O 'Connell and Brian Flores will have major personnel influence. But Rob Brzezinski, who is the interim right now, it's easy to overlook who he is and what he's done.

38:59Robert Mays: He's been there for like 30 years.

39:00Jesse Newell: He's been with the Vikings since 1999 when I was two years old. He has negotiated as the primary negotiator for this team and managed the cap for 20 plus years. So regardless, he would be here having a key role in who they sign. I would say as far as their strategy and approach, especially because they haven't won a playoff game in four years, like I would not because the roster is older and because Justin Jefferson is in the prime of his career. And has been vocal about how shitty last year was. Yeah. And he he managed it as well as any superstar possibly could. But it was an agonizingly difficult situation for everybody.

39:36Jesse Newell: And you could feel the stress, the tension coming out of training camp. I remember being in Dublin and being in London week four and week five, and it was tough. And so the fact they ended up nine and eight was kind of crazy in itself. But if they make decisions for 2026 and 2027 with short-term perspective, it'll make more sense to me now than it did last year when they took a similar approach.

40:02Robert Mays: We know the quarterback situation you talk about if they move on from Aaron Jones, what does running back look like into your defensive line? What are the other areas of need in your mind for this team that maybe we're not thinking enough about?

40:14Jesse Newell: Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, if Harrison Smith retires, then who is playing safety for a Brian Flores defense where the communication runs through that position? So you start there. They absolutely need cornerback depth. Byron Murphy Jr. and Isaiah Rogers have provided a certain floor on the outside. But to to revamp that position with more explosiveness and athleticism is huge. And then TJ Hawkinson, I don't know if we've talked about, his cap number right now is$21 million. That is the highest cap number of all tight ends in the NFL currently. His production has not, in recent years, since he's coming back from the ACL, it has not matched that cap number.

40:55Jesse Newell: So where do the Vikings view him and his performance and his arc? If they negotiate a pay cut, how willing is he going to be to do that? So that's another big spot. There's just a lot of them. Interior defensive line. I mean, Eric Wilson, what if he leaves a free agency, then linebacker. It's all over the map. It's all over the board. And I expect to be very busy like it always seems to be in Minnesota.

41:19Robert Mays: Yeah, that's part of the problem here. Like we mentioned at the top, it's that you have the quarterback thing that's just looming over everything else. But then when you dig a layer or two deeper, you realize, like, man, there's still a lot of considerations and needs on this team. And a lot of the considerations and needs on this team happen to align with where they invested resources last year, and that's just a frustrating place to be.

41:38Jesse Newell: And then we haven't even talked about, like, Christian Derrissaw. In my opinion, it was one of the more underrated storylines the entire season. He comes back from his torn ACL, and he plays a little bit. He pulls himself out of games. It's like, is he playing? If he's playing, how long is he playing? And so, you know, where is he entering? He's a massive, huge aspect of the offense, of the offensive line. Where is he? and then again if you're replacing Ryan Kelly the center position for an offense that's as complex as the Vikings is is going to be massive yet you're dealing with the cap number that you're dealing with so yeah they're beyond the quarterback there is a ton to sort through and I've told people besides the quarterback pursuit in 2024 since I've covered the team this is definitely the most meaningful time I think for the direction of this organization and that is why they are one

42:31Robert Mays: of the most interesting teams of the 2026 offseason alec lewis always great to chat with you buddy we will do it again very soon thanks robert appreciate you all right before we get to our conversation with our cults writer james boyd let's take our second quick break

42:48Robert Mays: joining us now it is our indianapolis cults writer here at the athletic james boyd james

42:53James Boyd: great to see you man i'm doing good man great to you as well and sleeping in my own bed so i can't relate to everyone else everyone always asks me like oh where are you going at this where you you stand up to this? And I'm like, I'm staying at home.

43:02Robert Mays: So yeah, that was always talking to Kiefer about that. It's like trying to balance being social because everyone is here with the idea that like your kids are still at home is a tough thing to do when it's happening in your hometown. Let's talk about the Colts. There's a bunch of different stuff to go through here. I want to look back before we look forward, because I've asked this question to a bunch of different people who have written about this team and been around this team and I've gotten and a bunch of different answers, but why in your mind, after the bottoming out in the back half of last year, do you think that Carly Erce Gordon and the organization was willing to bring Chris Ballard and Shane Steichen back for another run at this thing?

43:39James Boyd: That was the money question, Robert. That was the question all the fans were asking after the end of the game, at the end of the season press conference, and ultimately, talking to Carly Erce Gordon, it sounded like they viewed those first 10 games of the year when they were 8-2, more than the last now going on 10 years of his entire tenure, because we were asking her, how do you weigh such a unique season where you were in Ballard's words, the top four team in the NFL when you were eight and two versus, okay, well you didn't want another game after that largely due to injuries. But on top of that, your resume overall, like have you earned the grace to get another chance?

44:17James Boyd: Like if this was, for example, the 49ers, they've had injury history, they've had things happen, but they've also won. You haven't won anything. And so that to me was the hard like needle of the thread. But at the same time, Carly Ursa Gordon said like, well, we believe this team is good. We believe Daniel Jones is a big part of that. And ultimately, it sounded like they evaluated this season on the first 10 games versus, again, the overall 10 years and the last seven games of the year.

44:41Robert Mays: To me, it makes sense in this regard. If you look at like this head coaching cycle, it's bleak out there. Like there are not that many guys in this cycle where you wouldn't have wanted to be in the cycle if you were the Colts. The idea that you could hire a head coach that was better than Shane Steichen in this cycle, I think would be misguided. I don't think that would be available to you based on what Shane has done as a play call and what the offense has looked like. If you keep Shane and fire Chris, that also feels counterproductive in what becomes a shorter window. It's like, all right, so now you're going to completely turn over the front office when you're trying to win now.

45:16Robert Mays: I think landing in a place where you say, listen, this year, your feet are against the fire. Like this is we need to win this season with those two guys together and then we'll reevaluate it after 2026. That does make sense to me, even if I assume some Colts fans are frustrated by the process.

45:33James Boyd: Oh, some, I would say pretty much all of them are fed up just because of mediocrity. But yeah, I think you laid it out pretty well there, Robert. Like a lot of the angst is not towards Shane Steichen, even though a little bit of it is. Hey, he's two and nine against the Texans and the Jaguars during his tenure, which is something you can be critical about. But I think most fans are like, you know what? You haven't had your starting quarterback make it through an entire season through your first three years here. We can understand that. But for Ballard, it's like, again, how much grace are we giving this guy who has not won?

46:02James Boyd: And I call it the 2-1-0 method. Two playoff appearances, one playoff win, zero AFC South titles. And you look at this division. This is not the Chiefs division when Patrick Mahomes and then we're on top of the world. This is not with the, you know, dynastic Patriots of old. like this division pretty much is open every year and you're not able to win it and so that's where a lot of the frustration lies and ultimately i was trying to explain this you know here in the city and people are telling me to shut up it's like i know why you want them to leave but here's why they won't leave and i and i think that they view them kind of as a joint package and they don't want to like disrupt that quite frankly what do we think happens a quarterback obviously dan jones

46:41Robert Mays: is a free agent there's huge questions around anthony richardson when you think about the final plan with that room specifically and what it's going to look like two months from now what is the composition in your mind look like for the colts oh that's a great question well number one

46:55James Boyd: i think daniel jones is your qb1 going into 2026 and that's basically been solidified at least on the colts and talking to chris ballard at the end of the season he was i would say more like pushy on him not only being healthy enough to play but being back here he called daniel jones the team's short and long-term answer, which raised my eyebrows. I was like, long-term?

47:17Robert Mays: When you trade away two first-round picks, you box yourself into a certain position.

47:22James Boyd: Exactly, but at the same time, that frustration, again, arises among the fan base. We were like, yo, he's saying this now, but this was said through the trade. This was said through the moves. They hitched their wagon to this guy, and I remember riding at the time, Robert, they were 8-3. They had actually a really bad game in Pittsburgh. They made a trade for Sauce Gardner, and I was thinking to myself, and I wrote it, this was your last exit ramp to not go all in to still have an out for the Daniel Jones experience and you went all in on this guy and now even though he's coming off of a broken leg and a torn Achilles he probably has more leverage in the negotiations for his new contract than the Colts do that which is a crazy proposition but then on top of that I think he's QB1 and then what was interesting Robert is Chris Ballard has been Anthony Richardson's biggest champion here in Indianapolis even when things were going horrible and at the end of the season hey does he have a future here he says well we got to see what's going on with his eye we'll see what all that brings and I was like hmm this is your first chance to basically reaffirm that he's your guy and he'll be here it's a future here and you're singing a different tone than you had at the beginning of the season so I think that Anthony quite honestly will probably get traded I honestly think that he might want to get traded at this point get a fresh start and they're even saying that they're pretty high on Riley Leonard as QB2 and Chris Ballard said at the end of the year Robert hey if Anthony's not right we like what we saw from Riley you know if he could be our QB too so it's saying that out loud just lets me know it's probably time to move on from Anthony and I would myself look at perhaps even drafting a young quarterback to be that third guy if Anthony's not

48:54Robert Mays: here looking at it right now the financials of it the culture like 35 million dollars in cap space you think the functionally it's probably closer to like 27 28 right there are certain moves and certain considerations that we're gonna have to talk about and think about here how do you think they figure out the receiver specifically because you got a 29 million dollar cap hit for michael pittman who has been a productive player for you but that's a really big number it is they would save 20 million dollars if they were to move on from him via cutting him or via trade and then you have alec pierce hitting free agency and i think that it's really easy to make the argument that right now you would rather have alec pierce or whatever his number is going to be than michael pittman on a 20 million 29 million dollar cap it so how do you think that gets solved absolutely i

49:35James Boyd: I think, one, they might and they probably should tag Alec Pierce because if he hits the open market, boy, the number is going to get high. Especially this year, Robert Shumshree elaborated here on the show. The wide receiver free agent market isn't all that great this year. It's bad.

49:49Robert Mays: It's consistently bad pretty much every single year now.

49:51James Boyd: Exactly. So if he reaches that, I mean, I get people are telling me now, like, is he a true number one receiver? It doesn't matter. It's what the league was willing to pay you. That number is going to get pricey. and so to perhaps absorb some of that cost yes i think michael pittman jr would be the guy on the cutting block and he actually admitted it i love his candor because right after the season ended literally in the locker room in houston he goes yeah this is my last game as a cold i loved it here because he knows that's a big number himself and my thinking is could they restructure the colts haven't done a lot of that in years past they did last year with brayden smith would he be willing to do that?

50:26James Boyd: I mean, he has a farm here. His family's here. He is not really the diva receiver. I mean, the guy's from California and has a farm and loves, you know, horses and cows and stuff like that. And so that's great. But again, and my thing is he's not worth that much money, but he's still a good player that he's worth something. So can you restructure to half of that? Can you restructure something in that range? And then I think your palate, you know, feels a little bit better about bringing him back. So, but I've said it, you know multiple times robert if they do not bring pitman back then suddenly receiver becomes a big need even if you do keep alec pierce in tow so let's just say hypothetically pierce is on the

51:03Robert Mays: roster for next year you still have josh downs they figure out receiver somewhere in the draft they draft a guy daniel jones is back the next big consideration on the offense you mentioned him braden smith is hitting free agency so what they've been able to do over the last couple years and it looked a lot better the first half of the year than the back half of the year this plan along the offensive line where we have young players in the pipeline that we're drafting in the middle rounds those are going to be our solutions with gonsalves and with borderline i think that looked pretty darn good for most of last year they have jaylen travis who they drafted in the fourth round last season do you just assume that they put jaylen travis just steps in for braden smith if he is

51:38James Boyd: to move on do you think that's the plan i do think that is their plan and they had kind of been banking on that and i do want to say for braden smith he's been through a lot the last couple years he had the OCD that he kind of got through and he's in a better place with that now and then this past year his production as a player was still pretty good it's just he got a little dinged up at the end of the season had a concussion had a neck injury and so you're starting to think okay how healthy are you going to be he's still managing like a he's pretty candid about how he has a knee not like an injury he's healthy enough to play but it's something he has to manage for the rest of his career and I think the Colts have done a pretty good job in years past you look at a guy like Ryan Kelly of backfilling and kind of preparing these guys to come along and be ready to go.

52:17James Boyd: And I have to give credit to Tony Sperano Jr. as well. I think that he's one of the better offensive line coaches in the league.

52:22Robert Mays: They become one of those teams where they really do maximize the players that they bring through. You can skimp on it resource wise in some ways that other teams can't because you have a development plan. It is like a real weapon that they've been able to wheel that position specifically.

52:34James Boyd: And they don't, again, you talk about building a roster, every roster is going to have some flaws in it, but where can you, again, you look at talk about money, that's where they can get a little bit cheaper get younger and jalen travis they're very high on him very smart dude i don't want to say he had an internship with like congress you know before he came over to the nfl and he wants to go into politics perhaps afterwards and i'm like you are one of god's favorites like how are you this tall this handsome i mean now you want to play football and then do this on the side so um jokes aside though they do believe that he i think is the future at that right tackle spot and it wouldn't surprise me if he gets that day one starting role going into next year file of the sundry like things that might only be interesting

53:08Robert Mays: to me, but if he is the starting right tackle for the Colts in terms of composition and where they found the players, it becomes the most interesting offensive line in the league. You have a third round pick at left tackle. The amount of third round picks that hit at left tackle is minuscule, but Bernard Ryman has played well, got an extension justifiably. So you have a guard that you drafted in the top six, the highest drafted guard in the last, I don't know, however many years, decades. So that's a weird kind of isolated incident. And then you have a fourth round pick at center, a third round pick at right guard, and then a fourth round pick at right tackle.

53:37Robert Mays: I promise you there is no offensive line in the league composed of that sort of draft picks. And they're all in-house draft picks. Which is crazy. It's just such a weird group, but they have done a very good job of maximizing it.

53:48James Boyd: Yeah, I have to give them credit for that. And honestly, Quentin Nelson is the one that still blows my mind because I don't think he's 30 yet. And he probably has a Hall of Fame resume right now today. And anytime he's leading that room, they appreciate the leadership there. You can count on him to be still one of the most dominant offensive linemen in the league. But, yeah, it is kind of funny that when we talk about needs and if you just list out where every guy was drafted, you would think that's a big, big need for this team. But, no, it's usually, okay, what happens on the offense if, again, Michael Pittman Jr.

54:16James Boyd: isn't here next year, and then defensively he had a lot of help on the other line for sure.

54:20Robert Mays: So defense is where I think you could argue they have more needs because there are other position groups. Offense, even if right now you're looking at Pierce as a free agent, you're looking at Dan Jones as a free agent, I trust that they're going to figure that out to a workable place on that side of the ball. on defense. The defensive line is the spot that, all right, what's going to happen here. You're getting a little bit older on the interior and then beyond Liatuatu, pretty much every single member of their edge rushing rotation is hitting free agency next this spring. JT Talamalu, who was a second round pick last year, didn't play a ton as a rookie.

54:50Robert Mays: You assume he's going to be part of that plan. But as you think about the composition of the edge room, is that something that you feel is going to need to be addressed either in free agency or the draft because of how many guys are hitting the market.

55:01James Boyd: Oh, absolutely. I would argue it's both. I want to say Latu, Latu, last year had eight and a half sacks, three interceptions, which was just weird. I don't know if I want to bank on him having another three interception season in his career. But you look at the other guys who are free agents that played a ton of snaps last year on the edge, Taequann Lewis, Samson Ebukam, and Quidi Pei, they combined as a group for nine sacks. And I'm thinking that's just not enough production. Quidi Pei, I believe, played all 17 games last year and only had maybe three sacks. That's not enough for a former first-round pick.

55:30James Boyd: So I would argue that, I mean, most of those guys, if not all three, are going to be gone next year. And so you have to, I think, and the fans hate me for saying this, but I'm sorry, you have to probably draft another defensive end, and they hate that. They're like, Chris Ballard can't draft defensive ends. But I'm like, well, it's an avenue to get a good player, so you got to go get him. You can't just not do it. They're like, well, we quit. Just go in free agency. But then I tell them, okay, we're in free agency. And this is what Chris Ballard told us. He wants to get younger and faster, but I want to know, like, how realistic, what's the balance there?

55:59James Boyd: because if you get a defensive end who's a free agent, they're going to have some warts. They're going to be older. If they're younger, they're going to be injury-prone. They might not be as productive.

56:07Robert Mays: Or they're going to have no production like Dio Dengbo, who's a former Colt that got paid a ton by the Bears last year.

56:11James Boyd: Exactly. So there's going to be some sort of trepidation there. But how comfortable are you in doing that? So we hear names like Trey Hendrickson, the relationship we have with Luana Rumo. Would you go that route? Is he a young guy? No. He's coming off injury? Yes. But is he productive when he's healthy? Yes. So those are the things they have to consider. but absolutely the defensive line they had so many games last year even on the stretch when they were banged up and hurt they just could not get home and finish the game and they were close in kansas city they were close against seattle i was thinking to myself philip rivers might have given them one of the best games of the year you know at 44 years old but that defense again just couldn't close and you need closes in this league trey endrickson is a name i hadn't really thought

56:50Robert Mays: about but if they free up a decent amount of money if they move on from michael pittman even if you bring back pierce they still would probably be able to do something kind of aggressive in the market. And so that hadn't been a name I had thought about, but they could make it work if they wanted to. It would be a little bit out of character. What they did in free agency last year with Charverius Ward is not something they typically do. So it would be the second straight year they've kind of stepped outside of their normal approach. But that's an interesting one to think about. With Charverius Ward specifically, what do we think happens there?

57:17Robert Mays: Because obviously, I mean, the injuries and the concussions have piled up to a degree that he's openly talking about retirement and whether that's the right option. Do you see him being part of their future in the short term here?

57:28James Boyd: I do think he'll be a part of their future in the short term. I would lean towards him playing football in 2026. But the thing that I've always kind of gone back and forth with him is, okay, how much of a contingency plan should you have built in place? Because unfortunately, it's a violent game. And he did have three concussions in about three months last year with this team. So how do you factor in the possibility of him getting another one? And he was very candid. at the end of the season, during the season, he told us, if I get one more, I might be done. This is it. And, you know, we know what he's been through with the tragedy with his daughter.

58:02James Boyd: And he made very clear, like, I don't want to lose anyone else in my family, including myself. He said, I want to remember everything when I get old and I don't want to be the guy who, you know, once was. And then he made it very clear, which I loved. It was kind of a flex. Robert, he stands, looks at it. He's like, I made a lot of money, a lot of money. And I'm like, well, I know that. And then he also says, I won a Super Bowl. I've started in multiple Super Bowls. I was an undrafted guy. I beat all the odds. But within that, you can still tell there's an edge. And then talking behind the scenes with some people, it sounds like he is willing to try to give it a go.

58:31James Boyd: But again, how much can you trust that if you know, he's already said, if I get one more concussion, I'm done.

58:36Robert Mays: They do have Justin Wally on the roster, who they were very, very excited about in training camp last year. And actually, the meme with the small domino and the big domino, Justin Wally tearing his ACL in the summer likely leads to the Sauce Gardner trade, which now makes you tied to Daniel Jones as your quarterback for the next two years. And so the Justin Wally injury has like irreparably changed the next five years of Indianapolis Colts football in a way that I don't think we appreciate quite enough.

59:05James Boyd: Oh, absolutely. And honestly, until you said it out loud like that, I really hadn't connected all the dots, but yes, they were so high on him. I believe he was a third round pick last year out of Minnesota. And actually, Dane Brugler, I think, had him as like a six rounder. So when they picked him, I was like, this is a reach. But then we got to training camp and Chris Ballard, he was able to give me a little crow to eat. He was telling me, I told you this guy could ball. He was starting from day one of training camp. I know people will say that's just training camp, but with Lou Anarumo, we know he likes the older players.

59:33Robert Mays: Lou loved him too. They were very excited about Justin Waller last year.

59:37James Boyd: He was making plays, joint practices, and he went down to joint practice in Baltimore against Lamar Jackson and those guys. I think that was the moment for everybody. This dude can play. They went through a boatload of receivers. I mean, not receivers, I'm sorry, cornerbacks before they got to Saw's Gardner. Because remember, Xavier Howard was here for like a cup of coffee, which was crazy.

59:55Robert Mays: The Xavier Howard Rams game will be burned into my mind for the rest of my life. But it's even if they were, I think the point is, even if Mooney Ward didn't play, they still have Justin Wally, who they could step into that other outside corner spot and he would be a contingency plan if Ward were to get hurt. So corner is actually pretty solidified, even considering the Mooney Ward part of this. Safety is the other position where, okay, what's going to happen there? Because Nick Cross is a free agent. I assume he's going to get paid a decent amount of money in free agency. George Odom and Rodney Thomas, both of whom were depth free over the last couple of years, those guys are hitting free agency.

1:00:26Robert Mays: So that to me feels from the outside looking in like another position that they're going to need to address in some way.

1:00:31James Boyd: Absolutely. And if you ask the fan base here, even if you ask obviously the Colts brass who drafted Nick Cross, they traded up to get him and he's delivered the last two years. He's shown that he can be a starting caliber safety in this league. They switched them from free safety to strong safety closer to the box and i think that's that fits him he actually looks like a linebacker and he hangs out with him in the locker room as well um he's always the d-line and a lot in the line back so i'm like where are you supposed to be right now but for nick cross the question i have is yes i think that he deserves to get paid but after you've already injected so much money and resources into your secondary is it wise to pay a safety another safety that much money because if you think about it you pay can't buy him you pay it's various ward you're you know i get that sauce guard is on team friendly deal but he's on a big contract and so again how many more guys can you continue to pay in that secondary and at what we would call a non-premium position.

1:01:17James Boyd: So he's the most interesting one when it comes to the free agents, besides the big names, of like, what is his market value? Because we've seen like the safety, you know, market gets suppressed in recent years. It can be kind of finicky, but he is a good player and they would like to have back.

1:01:31Robert Mays: I think it's part of the problem is when you look at it, and what we're going to do is show about this next week, but just the positions that you can often find in free agency, there's a reason safety is that position. Teams just aren't really paying safeties. And because there are so many available, that depresses their market even further. So it's a spot where if you just need a starting caliber safety in this free agent class, you're probably going to be able to find one. And that is a bad thing for somebody like Nick Cross. It's the exact opposite situation for somebody like Alec Pierce, where if it's not Alec Pierce, it's Romeo Dobbs.

1:02:00Robert Mays: And even Romeo Dobbs is a better player than the guys who are available at free agency in last year's class at receiver. So it's the way the positions are affected by the market is absolutely something that's worth considering. Anything else from this team that you have at front of mind as we sit here on the eve of free agency and the draft that you feel like still needs to be figured out?

1:02:19James Boyd: I think not necessarily figured out, but maybe just answered is the vision for Anthony Richardson and literally his vision. I know we talked to him at the end of the season and people were like, OK, well, he's practicing. Why isn't he playing? He could not see fully. And I don't think people and I love you all for being as passionate you are as fans. But I'm like, do you know how hard it's like football if you can't see fully? And I mean, you need all of it, the peripherals, everything like that. It isn't just, you know, making a couple throws. So we were asking about the eye because it's his right eye.

1:02:46James Boyd: And honestly, Robert, seeing him after the incident, he's got a cut underneath his right eye. And it makes me think like, okay, with all this stuff that happened, and, you know, and to explain the problem, like he was in the locker room. He's warming up. I think he attached a band or something in the locker room, and that thing broke, whatever it was, metal, plastic. It hit him in the face really hard. So imagine getting the fastballs in the face at 90 miles an hour. And when you look at where it hit him, in my mind, I'm thankful that he can still see at all out of his right eye. And he couldn't, and the team could not say definitively whether the vision would come back.

1:03:17James Boyd: They're optimistic that it will, but, I mean, I'm out of this about a lot of things in life, and sometimes it doesn't work out like that. So where does that stand? And then if he does have the full vision or not, how does that affect him staying in Indianapolis, moving on to another team? If you're a team that wants to take a flyer on Anthony Richardson, yeah, you can deal with maybe the other injury stuff, but the eye is something like you got to be able to see for me to even take a chance on you. So where does that stand going into 2026?

1:03:42Robert Mays: Lot of things to weigh with where the Colts are right now on the edge of a crucial season for everybody involved. James Boyd, always great to chat with you, my friend. Great to see you. We'll do it again very soon.

1:03:53James Boyd: Sounds good, man. Appreciate you. All right,

1:03:55Robert Mays: guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you to Jesse. Thank you to Alec. Thank you to James for their time. We will be back with one more of these tomorrow. I couldn't even for the life of me tell you which three teams we're going to hit because I do not remember We'll have our third and final show the most interesting teams of the offseason and then me Dave and Derek will be back with you On friday as we recap the week that was in indianapolis and all of the scuttlebutt that we have been hearing Bengals ravens eagles bagels ravens eagles Beller is the keeper of the schedule. He knows what's happening here Bengals ravens eagles gonna be coming to you guys tomorrow for now that is all we've got from Indy.

1:04:34Robert Mays: I appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.