The most interesting teams of the offseason, part 3: Bengals, Ravens and Eagles

0:03Paul Dehner Jr.: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Our most interesting teams of the offseason series rolls on but also comes to its conclusion today. Three teams that are in an interesting spot just because we're used to them being kind of playoff fixtures and contending level teams. But for each of them, some level of turnover and consternation maybe this offseason.

0:25Robert Mays: Started things off with a conversation with Paul Daner, who covers the Bengals for us about the Bengals plan for fixing their defense and what is becoming an increasingly important year for Zach Taylor and that staff. Followed that up with a great conversation with Jeff Zarebek about the Baltimore Ravens, who I mean, this is a new situation for a team that spent 18 years with the same head coach. A lot of financial things looming over the Ravens.

0:48Paul Dehner Jr.: More needs than typical for the Ravens who have to figure out how they're going to scrounge up the money to fill some of those needs. And then our old buddy Zach Berman, who covers the Eagles for us and does a fantastic job, came on to chat a little bit about just the state of the Eagles. The last time we talked to Zach, we were talking about the offensive coordinator search in Philly. It was before Sean Manning got hired. But after that, we have Jeff Stoutwin moving on. We have Landon Dickerson and Lane Johnson contemplating retirement. So talk to Zach about how much of this is just another year of Eagles tinkering and how much of this is actual cause for concern with the path that the Eagles were on.

1:21Robert Mays: Really enjoyed all of these conversations and every discussion that we've had with our beat writers this week. Hope you guys do as well. Let's get to it right now.

1:34Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our esteemed Cincinnati Bengals writer here at The Athletic, Paul Niener Jr.

1:40Zach Berman: How you doing, buddy? I'm doing great. This is one of my favorite moments at the Combine because you always pick the Bengals because it's always something weird happening.

1:47Robert Mays: It's mostly just because I like talking to you about the Cincinnati Bengals. That's like 60 % of it.

1:53Paul Dehner Jr.: The Bengals are always an interesting team because it always feels like there's something looming over the Bengals. Last year, it was T. Higgins. This year, it's not as much drama, but I think it's in a really pivotal offseason just because of how bad the defense was last year. And they do have some resources to spend. So I think that's where a lot of my intrigue lies with this Bengals team is, okay, here is a pile of money, a smaller pile than I thought, by the way. But here is a pile of money that we're going to need to use to fix this defense. What is that process going to look like? And that's what I want to dig into today.

2:25Zach Berman: Yeah. You tell me what's looming over them. I think Bengals fans would be like, I think what's looming over this year is existential dread. You know, of like, this is the feel good. Fairy dust has worn off. This is it. Okay. It's this is the year. The everything has is kind of we've been talking about this a lot over the last couple of months. We haven't had a lot else to talk about. Um, but is, is how every single thing that's happening right now feels like is just another underline under the arrows pointing towards this year. It has to happen or else there is, there's nothing you can count on beyond that.

3:03Zach Berman: I mean, from Joe Burrow's words himself, right? Like there was a reason why I wanted to ask the most pointed question last year, which is, are you, are you here next year? Like, let's just talk specifics. Yes. Anything beyond that? You think about a lot of things was what he said. You know, like that, the coaching staff, this is the first time we've ever seen de facto GM Duke Tobin named in a support statement from Mike Brown. Everything that's been known as this is who the new era Bengals are with Zach Taylor and Joe Burrow and everything is about to maybe change. If they can't make it work this time because they have the continuity, they have year two of Al Golden as coordinator, you have almost everyone back on this offense that they have, that Zach Taylor and Dan Pitcher have built around Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins.

4:00Zach Berman: All of it points to it needs to happen now or there is going to be a lot of questions that no one quite knows the answers to in terms of how deep it will go.

4:09Robert Mays: The urgency is very real. And I think the urgency would have been real for most franchises last year. Right. This is a different team. They operate a little bit differently. We know that. I was talking to a coordinator yesterday. We were just discussing what head coaching jobs might come open next year. It's one of the first ones we started talking about. It's like, if this goes poorly, the Bengals job will be open potentially with Joe Burrow, potentially maybe not like, right. There's a lot of stuff hanging in the balance for this Bengal season specifically.

4:34Zach Berman: I mean, I would say most likely with Joe Burrow. Can I, here's my thing. Can I just do one thing here? Because the national conversation often goes to how can we get Joe Burrow out of Cincinnati, right? Here's the thing that no one ever talks about in that conversation. Joe's not going to leave his guys. He got Jamar and T signed. They want to play football together. They love playing football together. And he's not going to be like, deuces, boys. Enjoy that. I'm out of here. Okay. Now, when all their contracts run out, which isn't that far off in the distance, it's a totally different story but he that's that's not necessarily what's going to happen but the dynamic changes those guys just want to win Joe Burrow has been a lot of times scoring a million points losing games and getting hurt okay it's frustrating he's frustrated so yes but he just wants to win I think they all would be perfectly happy playing in Cincinnati if they can just do what they think that they can do each offseason that hasn't quite turned out So that's kind of the part of it, I think, that often gets overlooked in this conversation.

5:42Zach Berman: I want to be clear about this.

5:44Robert Mays: I don't think Joe Burrow will leave Cincinnati. That was more nodding at you just saying that, like, who knows what will happen beyond this year. The idea that, like, Joe Burrow is not going to be on the Bengals. He's going to force his way out or Joe Burrow is going to get traded next offseason. Like, that is very, very far away from my radar or, like, to me, that's, like, the most remote possibility.

6:03Zach Berman: I do not think that's going to happen, nor do I care if it happens. But the dynamic changes in terms of how loud the groundwork about his future in the NFL is. Yes. This is a very pivotal crossroads season for them in terms of if you can't win here under these circumstances where all they've got to do is fix the defense. And I know that's saying a lot when you consider where it was. And you have all of this continuity around an elite quarterback and maybe the best receiver in the NFL and maybe the best 1A, as Jamar Chase will call him, T. Higgins, in the NFL. You have all of these pieces, good coordinators.

6:39Zach Berman: Like you have all that. If you can't do it now, everything needs to kind of be rethought. And I think that would be something we've heard Joe Burrow be very loud publicly about trying to get the team to do things in the past. Like, I just think all the dynamics change if you're like, we can't do it with this. What what can we do? And that ends up leading the next five years of Bengals conversation potentially. So it's just it's pivotal year to show that they can do it because they're set up to as much as it may feel far away last year. one good offseason um inflicting the defense can get you to where you want to be and here's where

7:12Robert Mays: some of the frustrations about what the bangles are start to creep in because this is a pivotal offseason i think most other teams in this situation the bangles has right now looking

7:21Paul Dehner Jr.: at something like over the cap about 50 million dollars in cap space if they restructured joe burrow's contract they would give themselves instantly another 20 million dollars in cap space And if they wanted to seek out three to four new starters on defense and do the exact same thing they did in 2021, where they completely microwave the defense with free agents and it got them to the Super Bowl, in theory, they'd have more money to do that. Duke Tobin was asked yesterday during his combine me availability, do is he going to restructure Joe Burrow's contract? and the answer in many, many words to say nothing seemed to be no.

7:52Zach Berman: Seemed to be we have a plan that we can do what we think we need to do this offseason without having to jeopardize future years. They have$150 million in cap space next year. What? I mean, jeopardizing future years. Well, yeah. I mean, talk in terms. Yeah. I'm just saying this is a philosophy. And I mean, I feel like every time we talk to Duke, we ask him some version about this. Is there ever going to be a time where you go a little bit more all in? And his points, I'm always all in. I'm all trying. We know you're trying hard. Like, we know it matters to you. We know it cares. The bottom line is an all in is that move.

8:29Zach Berman: Like, is saying, hey, we have a chance to get Minka Fitzpatrick, or we have a chance to make a trade for whatever it is. Add somebody at the top, Jalen Phillips, or whatever you want to do. It's like, well, that wasn't in our plan, but that's available to us if we're willing to just, hey, let's just use the borough money like most quarterbacks with those types of deals do. It's$20 million to free up.

8:54Paul Dehner Jr.: So if you did that, and just looking at the math off the top of my head, he has how many more years left on his deal? He's 329. Yeah, so he has three more years left on his deal after this.

9:04Robert Mays: So if you prorate that$20 million, it's an extra$7 million on the cap each of the next three years. It's nothing. Right. It's nothing. And so that's how the frustration starts to creep in a little bit.

9:14Zach Berman: Yeah, you sound like every Bengals fan I talk to. Yeah, I mean, there's no doubt. But this has been their philosophy. They just don't believe in doing it that way. They believe in having the contract set the way that they set them. Now, in fairness, we don't know what they're going to do. He didn't rule it out. He didn't say we wouldn't do it. His point was we feel like we have a plan where we don't have to. So they have done things differently in regards to Burrow. So they I mean his contract looks different than any other Bengals contract that's ever been signed It was it was a hundred percent in line with all of Instructured way that all the major quarterbacks contracts are so maybe it is Maybe they are holding that in their back pocket and they just don't feel like a need to talk about I don't know why you would want to hide that as much as maybe they kind of do Which suggests that maybe they're not going to do it, but I don't I'm not going to like Cross it all the way off But you know, we'll see if if there's a player and there's an opportunity in free agency and the reason they didn't do it was because of money or that's used as an excuse it's hard not to hold that against them if they don't use that lever you look at what's happening

10:22Robert Mays: right now if that ends up settling somewhere around that 50 million the positions of need you laid it out kind of as like a big board positionally on the athletic i think it was last week defensive tackle in your mind is still probably the number one need on the team you said that for the for the second straight off season and i i can understand that right like So you have Chris Jenkins, you drive from the second round.

10:41Paul Dehner Jr.: He has not come along. TJ Slayton is a run stuffer. BJ Hill was banged up last year. He's getting a little bit older. And you do have some young edge rushers in the pipeline. The problem, as you laid out, free agency is not the place to be looking for an interior defensive lineman. So the thought might be in the first round, there might be guys at that spot available when they pick. So interior specifically makes sense as like a round one target for the Bengals.

11:05Zach Berman: Yeah. I mean, the problem is who's that? Yeah. wrong year for that you know I mean 10 overall yeah that's the problem if they're picking 25 again there's a lot of guys go back and you know how you go back and you look through past drafts you'll find some really nice defensive tackles from that like 8 to 15 range man there's a ton of dudes that are some of the highest paid defensive tackles in history that's where they've come off the board and then this year it's just not there now you can talk yourself into somebody and maybe they're going to do that this week with whoever but it's it's not now i think the depth you like better but that doesn't fix your current problem yeah and is that whoever you bring in if you draft another second round defensive tackle well is that you're still in the same spot that you're at with bj hill and chris jenkins and these guys so to me you know john franklin myers is not gonna be the world's greatest pass rushing three technique.

12:05Zach Berman: You can, he's flawed as a top of the free agent guy at that position, but he's better than anything else they got. And so if you're going to extend yourself somewhere, like we were kind of talking about, like that would be the direction that you would go. But again, now you're in this bucket with all these other people that need the exact same thing. And he's the only real guy that looks like that kind of, so it's a, I'm interested to see if they have any real pursuit over him to add into their mix. Cause for their situation, I think he would be a nice piece that it's okay like you can put other guys around him a little bit he doesn't have to be a star but you just got to pay him like you're just gonna have to pay the price

12:43Robert Mays: at every position i think defensive tackle edge rusher linebacker corner maybe now we know that's two starting outside corners are and they probably need one starting safety but at defensive tackle

12:53Paul Dehner Jr.: edge rusher and linebacker i think all three of those positions my question is which of those spots do they feel comfortable with like in-house development from young guys and which of those spots are they like you know what we can't rely on that yeah because linebacker to me feels like the position where even if they invested in it last year in the draft the gap that those guys have to close to get to a level where you feel good about them is so big that i would argue that trying to solve it in free agency and just saying like you know what this didn't work we need an instant solution you can justify that even if you spent two draft picks on guys last year they use

13:29Zach Berman: the term force multiplier a lot yesterday in terms of like you know like they need we talked to the linebackers coach mike hodges who's went through it last year two rookie linebackers it was we talked to him at the end of the year and it was like let's just wait to the end of the year to have this conversation right and his point was i've never talked to anyone that's had to coach two rookie linebackers starting next to each other and i was like let me go double check and look it up i had to go all the way back in terms of the amount of snaps that they play they both were well over 100 tackles, over 700, 800 snaps.

14:01Zach Berman: I had to go all the way back to 2012 to find two rookie linebackers that played that much next to each other. It's defensive suicide. You can't do that. A defense cannot operate in this league at this moment with guys that don't know what's going on at the core tech. Like, you can't do that. And so, to me, I point to somebody, like, there's a number of veteran linebackers that are out. the Demario Davises, the Bobby Wagners. There's a ton of guys in their early 30s that could be players for you. Or even if you just need somebody who can stabilize that group to let those guys actually develop and not feel like they're just trying to stop from drowning every day, every game.

14:43Zach Berman: And that was so much amongst many things, the core of what was going wrong. We would laugh because what must it have been like last year to be an offensive coordinator playing the Bengals during the week and be like, what can we do to mess with these guys? Every week it was reverses and all this crazy stuff. You'd see their heads pop in real time every single week. Offensive coordinators were having so much fun just toying with the linebackers every week, and they had no clue what was going on. So adding in some sort of leader at the center, I think that can make those guys, you can feel better about those guys if you just have somebody else that can help stabilize things for them.

15:22Zach Berman: and then the other side is the Shamar Stewart quandary that they put themselves in. Because he was hurt. He also looked really lost when he was out there, like really lost. And he was always going to be a project. He was raw, great athletic ability. But now you're in a spot where you don't want to block him if you believe in him. Miles Murphy did finally break out last year. You were like, I'm out on Miles Murphy last year. He eventually finally did it. It took three years, but he did finally come along last year. That's the problem. Do they have another three years to wait for Shamar Stewart?

15:54Zach Berman: I don't think they do. They don't. But you can't block him, but it needs to be better. Now, they can move him around. He's more of a moving, versatile piece where he can kick inside. So I've used a name like Draymond Jones, who you could pair with him nicely, who's versatile in and out as well. So they're both on the field in different roles. You're not blocking him, but you are augmenting your pass rush. so there's players that probably can fit what Shamar needs so he's still playing but it's a tough spot because Duke's number one thing is pass rush is king I have to get the pass rush better it hasn't been good enough it's the core of so much of what's going wrong for them there as well well how do you do it when you're also then you are ultimately counting on Shamar Stewart to be part of that he's your first round pick last year and so if he if he is not if it does take another year, that could be what brings the whole thing down.

16:48Robert Mays: The nice part about this, when you look at the needs that they have, the guys who will be available in free agency and the amount of money

16:54Paul Dehner Jr.: that they have, you can imagine a scenario where this does come together in a way that works, because the positions they really need, and this free agent class, we're going to talk about it next week. There are not a lot of stars at the top. You mentioned a couple of the addressers who are going to get paid, whether they're in that market, I think remains to be seen. But for the most part, this free agent class is thin at the top, but there is a middle ground of players where there are a lot of starting caliber guys. And especially at positions like linebacker and safety, you can find starting caliber guys is a very reasonable price.

17:25Paul Dehner Jr.: So the idea that you can go out and sign a, I don't know, let's say it's a Quincy Williams or like a Devin Bush or guys like that for seven to$10 million a year at linebacker. You can go find a starting safety for that price. You can go find a complimentary rotational edge rusher for that price. Like you can find three or four guys to add to the mix here that add up to$50 million and maybe feel pretty good about where you stand at the end of it. That is possible in this free agent crop specifically.

17:51Zach Berman: And that has been the Bengals' primary approach in free agency over time is to try to take advantage of hitting in the mid-tier. And when they've been at their best in 20 and 21 and 22, that's what they did. Mike Hilton, Chidabay Wuzier, Von Bell, Mary Ogunjobi, all guys that were huge pieces of maybe the best two-year run franchise history. It was built on the back of mid-tier free agents. And so I think they see that as their path here. Because what I've been using as the phrase is they need floor raisers. I think they're inevitably, their ceiling is inevitably going to be decided by all the young players that they've drafted, whether they develop or not.

18:34Zach Berman: but they have to bring in floor raisers that that can help it so it can't look like last year at the there has to be a level that it's just if you have enough players that are solid reliable they just didn't have starting level players playing last year and if that's what's available in free agency you can take advantage of that there there's areas that we can talk about and we have about the pass rush like i don't know how you're going to get to the ceiling that you need to get to But you can raise the floor enough that you can get it where maybe guys can develop the force multiplier thing around them.

19:06Zach Berman: And so I think that's, it feels like the most likely approach, the most Bengals approach, you know, a Draymond Jones, Caden Ellis, and maybe their stretch is like, hey, Minka becomes available and they're able to add a Minka on the back end of the stable. It's like, that feels like a plan. Like, that feels like a thing that you would see maybe happening with them.

19:26Paul Dehner Jr.: It's interesting because I think safety is the one position where there are so many guys available that that feels like a spot where you could skimp a little bit in terms of like the tier of guy you're seeking out and still get somebody you feel decent about. Like Nick Cross is 24 years old. Yeah. You know, could you get somebody like that and feel like that's an upgrade over what you had before? And I think linebackers the same way. It's just it's one of those things where I feel myself already talking myself into the idea like, oh, yeah, this could be OK. And then the offense is going to be great.

19:53Paul Dehner Jr.: And I just know the rug is going to get pulled out from under me again.

19:56Zach Berman: Right. And then it's Thursday of free agency, and you're like, how come the Bengals didn't sign anybody? It's just weird things like that have happened. It's found ways for it to go sideways in what's felt like unforced errors a lot. They last year were so focused on Tee and Jamar that they essentially lost their focus and sat out on free agency on accident. And it hurt them all year. They didn't have the starting level players that they should have added on Wednesday of free agency because they were getting those deals done and dealing with the Trey Hendrickson debacle that just got worse and worse and worse, and they obviously didn't handle his situation properly.

20:32Zach Berman: You can't have the unforced errors in an offseason where you just – they don't have to be perfect, but they need to be B+. You can't just have a bunch of unforced errors and not signing the right type of guy. And they get it thrown back in their face when they say, we've done this before, we can do it again. they they have had multiple seasons runs of success in free agency understanding how to handling it and being successful i i think that they can do that um they just haven't in the last couple of years i don't think they forgot how to do it but this is it like it goes back to the beginning of the conversation now or never man like because everybody that's here making these decisions right now might not have a chance to make them again if you don't do it right

21:15Robert Mays: and you feel that change in dynamic as somebody that's there every day you feel you feel that But there's a level of urgency here that there just hasn't been before. Yeah, unquestionable. It's Taylor era, yes.

21:25Zach Berman: Unquestionable. And I think, you know, no one's said this, but, I mean, I think everyone understands, like, this is it for Zach Taylor, man. Like, it probably should have been. I think he got the benefit of the doubt on the Burrow injury last year and the fact that they were changing over coordinators. and so many problems happened in trying to build personnel in connection to what Al Golden actually wanted and that blew up in their face. It's like, okay, well, we'll give you a chance to build this other defensive vision now with everything you've got. And we understand what Al Golden wants now in year two.

22:01Zach Berman: I think we didn't understand that properly last year. And now it needs to go work or else, you know, it's going to be new coach time in Cincinnati. And it'd be a job. I mean, the idea of going to play with Coach Joe Burrow is not a tough one to sell.

22:16Robert Mays: It's so funny because there are factors and arguments on both sides, right? Coaching the Bengals and the way that the Bengals operate as a franchise,

22:24Paul Dehner Jr.: there are challenges there that there wouldn't be in a lot of other buildings. You also get Joe Burrow.

22:29Robert Mays: Yes. So, like, it's their competing forces on both sides.

22:32Paul Dehner Jr.: That is something where if it seems like we're headed to a place in the middle of the season or in the back half of the season, it's week 13, they're under 500, or it feels like this is going to be over, I'm very much looking forward to asking people in and around the league, is this a good job? Yeah. Like, is the Bengals head coaching job a good job? Because I think that there are arguments that it absolutely is on a bunch of different levels. You get a top five quarterback no matter how you slice it. You get arguably the best offensive skill position player in the NFL. It's easy to make that case.

23:02Paul Dehner Jr.: And you get an organization where there's going to be real patience to allow you to see this through. So even if the resources and some of the spending and some of the support staff isn't at the level of an average NFL organization, there are still plenty of arguments for why this is actually a good spot to land as a head coach.

23:21Zach Berman: And then you also have to deal with being the coach at Cincinnati Bengals, which is it's a different it's just a unique challenge in understanding how this ownership operates differently. And that takes time. The good news is they'll give it to you. But it does take time to understand why things are different here compared to other places and figure out how to work around that. I mean, after 2019 and 2020, when they hired, he was 6 '25 and 1. And they were like, run it back. And they went to the Super Bowl. And so that's validated. Yeah. So, you know, they're going to sit there and say, well, last time we were really patient with our guy.

24:01Zach Berman: And so you're going to get that. So what's important? You know, if you're a coach and you're you want if that was where we were at, what's important to you in a job? Is it just getting you know, you'll probably get that third year of the check. You'll win whatever it is like I don't I don't. It depends probably on the coach. I just say never bet against Joe Burrow and being with that guy is probably going to work out well for most people.

24:22Paul Dehner Jr.: That's typically what I would say.

24:23Robert Mays: Yeah, that's typically what I would say. And I think, again, there are like we don't have to dig into this fully. But when you talk about ownership groups and which ownership groups are, there are some teams like the Titans in this cycle. I think that there were some coaching candidates that were scared off just by the nature of the ownership and how volatile it's been over the last few years. The Bengals ownership isn't volatile. It's just very cautious.

24:45Paul Dehner Jr.: and it's and so there there's a difference between having an ownership or having an owner that's consistently meddling and making your job harder in that way and having an owner that's probably not giving the things you need to be on proper footing to compete in the nfl and that is

25:01Zach Berman: where cincinnati is and so those are two different sets of problems yeah i mean it's yeah it's a different scenario and you get in there and then you have to find out what are the workarounds yeah like how do i that's why it's a unique job to take like how do i find a way to work around in terms of managing up and down and dealing with whether it's less resources or different voices that you talk to and approaches to free agency and contracts and all that stuff. So it's a unique job. But for now, Zach Taylor, who's the last man standing in the AOC North somehow, could be the next John Harbaugh here because guess what?

25:39Zach Berman: If it did come together and they made a run that Joe Burrow is more than capable of, he ain't going anywhere for a while. But you buy yourself even more time. And they will be like, look, we know this guy can do it. Now he's done it multiple times and different. You could see that being the end game. Or it's over. And that's why all the pressure's on this year because this is that crossroads season.

26:01Paul Dehner Jr.: Paul Danner, always great to chat with you, sir. Great to see you. We will do this again very soon.

26:06Zach Berman: I look forward to seeing what we're talking about next.

26:10Robert Mays: All right, before we get to Jeff Zarebek, let's take our first quick break

26:20Robert Mays: joining us now it is our ravens writer here at the athletic jeff seribeck jeff how you doing good rebert how are you doing very well uh the ravens are a part of this discussion

26:30Paul Dehner Jr.: in part because for the first time in 18 years they have a new head coach and a new coaching staff. So a very new feel to what is going on in Baltimore after John Harbaugh moves on. Jesse Minter is hired. Your initial kind of thoughts, reactions to what the first month or so of that staff has been like as you've gotten to ask them some questions, watch the actual coaching staff

26:52Robert Mays: come together, all of that stuff.

26:54Jesse Minter: Yeah, it's been interesting. I've been covering the Ravens since 2011, and this was my first head coaching change. And I've had one general manager change, and it was the most comfortable transfer of power as you can possibly have. And, you know, once Harbaugh got let go, the number of our writers who have dealt with this on an every-other-year basis just taunting me saying, yeah, now you know how we feel. So, yeah, it was an interesting – I thought the process was really interesting. I mean, you know, they interviewed 20 people. They interviewed three college coaches. and names haven't even basically come out because that wouldn't be fair for them with the recruiting benefits you'd get and all that or, you know, how it could hurt your recruiting.

27:39Jesse Minter: And just how, you know, I think you went in knowing Jesse Minter's history, knowing the whole factor of Mike McDonald, and there could be a feeling, look, we missed on this one. I'm not saying Jesse's Mike McDonald, but the mold. So you thought he was kind of the favorite going in or at least one of the favorites, and that's how it ended up. But to get there, you know, to interview 20 people and do what they did there, and then even their coordinator search, I mean, it wasn't really predictable. Like, there's not a ton of guys that Jesse, you know, from the Chargers staff, you have a couple. But, you know, Declan Doyle wasn't really on my radar when we started this, you know.

28:20Jesse Minter: But it's an interesting staff. I think Jesse did a really nice job for being a first-year head coach, and obviously DaCosta and his staff helped him a lot. just getting out of his comfort zone and bringing guys from, you know, they have three college coaches on their defensive staff. So it's an interesting group.

28:34Robert Mays: Yeah. When I watched all that come together and how a new head coach builds the staff, why they build the staff for those reasons is always so interesting to me. And you mentioned it. There's a bunch of college guys on that staff. I think that not only do they bring Jesse Minter back and kind of maybe trying to atone a little bit for letting Mike McDonald out of the building, but bringing Anthony Weaver back as the defensive coordinator, that was part of the problem in the

28:57Paul Dehner Jr.: year one of the Zach or regime is that it wasn't just losing Mike McDonald's that you lost half dozen assistants off of that 2023 staff.

29:04Robert Mays: And so bringing back Jesse mentor and Anthony Weaver to kind of bolster that side of it. And you may not have had Declan Doyle on your radar. I can tell you he was on mine. So it's seeking out, trying to figure out how to tap into that offensive system that the bears and the lions have had so much success with over the last couple years. That to me is one of the more fascinating questions about all of this is that, I mean, the Ravens offense with Lamar Jackson is very different than what the Bears did last year with Ben Johnson and what Ben Johnson has been doing in Detroit. And so where they land in who they want to be and how close it is to what that offensive structure looked like in Chicago, that becomes a fascinating question.

29:43Robert Mays: And so on every single level, the guys that they ended up with from the head coach on down, uh, make me more interested in what the 2026 Ravens are going to

29:51Jesse Minter: look like yeah and you know credit to Anthony Weaver too for having the humility to come back he was a finalist for that head coaching job he had been passed over twice for Ravens defensive coordinator job but for him to be able to come back and I think that'll be a huge resource for Jesse Minter he needs somebody to command that room well Anthony Weaver's a really good coach first of all and we saw how many issues they had with just the defense not appearing to be on the same page and you know just the breakdowns they consistently had and not playing up to the talent that they had on that group and he'll help there but Jesse really needs a guy that's going to run that room run those meetings and they need to start developing some young defensive linemen too that's been an issue here that we've seen play out so yeah it's it's definitely an interesting staff and um you know the other aspect of it is Lamar Jackson's you know input on it you know he met with Declan Doyle for a while.

30:49Jesse Minter: He was involved in the Minter process. And, you know, this is the offseason of Lamar in Baltimore. It seems every offseason is. It's just what's the question. But they're pretty pleased so far at his level of engagement in all these things because they want him involved. It's up to him to kind of step in and be involved.

31:07Robert Mays: The other element of this being an offseason of Lamar,$75 million cap it for Lamar Jackson as it currently stands. That needs to be addressed in some way. The base salary is astronomical. If they wanted to just convert it, they would be able to. But then I think you're looking at an$87 million cap it next year. Based on everything I've read, the questions you guys have asked, it seems like the best solution here for the Ravens to get that number to a tenable place that would allow them to do some things in free agency is for Lamar to sign an extension.

31:36Paul Dehner Jr.: There have been some, not competing messaging about that. But I think it was, Tecosta kind of came out and said, we need this to happen before free agency in order to give us a little bit of wiggle room. Jesse Minter was not quite as firm about that in the timeline. So where do you think this ends up settling? Do you think they get an extension done with Lamar before we get into the free agency period so they can spend a little bit?

31:57Jesse Minter: Call me skeptical because I've covered these Lamar negotiations before and nothing ever happens quickly. We're two weeks away. Yeah, I know. So to think that it's going to get done in short order, I think at some point they will reach an agreement on extension with them. But I see, you know, Steve Bishotti was pretty clear when he talked about it. And thankfully, because we've talked about this before, Robert, the walking on eggshells around all things Lamar Jackson, the organization, I don't think it helps anybody. And I think it hurt John Harbaugh in the end. So Bashadi just put his cards on the table, said, we want to sign a new extension.

32:33Jesse Minter: We need to sign an extension. But if we can't, we're just going to add void years to the back of his deal. And he's going to have a similar cap number in the ad last year. And we're going to have the room to do what he needs to do. If I'm guessing, I think that's probably the route this goes. And then they agree to a deal at kind of a later date. But that's fine. Yeah, exactly.

32:54Robert Mays: The biggest problem is if you again, if it's an eighty seven million dollar cap it next year, because you restructure it, eventually you're going to need to sign that extension. But that gives you an entire another year to figure that out.

33:02Jesse Minter: Yeah, I could see them buying themselves some time. And I'm sure we'll get into it a little bit. But I can't remember. I've been covering this team for a while. It's been a long time, Robert, since they've had this many needs that need to be addressed. So they need that money. They need that space. You can't just depend on the 11 draft picks, most of them on day three, to fill some of these holes.

33:22Robert Mays: There are such big, looming financial questions surrounding this team right now. And I think that the first set of those questions is the guys currently on the roster or guys hitting free agency. So the Lamar question, you talked about this in something you wrote this week.

33:36Paul Dehner Jr.: Marlon Humphrey has a$26 million cap hit. They would save$7 million. They moved on from him.

33:40Robert Mays: He did not play at the level of a guy making$26 million last year. Nnamdi Matabike has a$30 million cap hit this season. We don't know what his future looks like. And so there are just so many kind of load-bearing pillars.

33:54Paul Dehner Jr.: Roquan has a$32 million cap hit this year. There are just so many load-bearing kind of pillars of this team as we've come to understand them that have at least some questions hanging over them as we get into March.

34:06Jesse Minter: Very true. I cannot see Humphrey being back at that number. And he's another guy. He doesn't have an agent. So those pay cuts become harder to navigate. How many guys on this team?

34:15Robert Mays: Does Roquan have an agent? No. So Roquan, Lamar, and Marlon Humphrey don't have agents.

34:19Jesse Minter: Great stuff. Three of the top. So I can't imagine Eric DaCosta is getting a whole lot of sleep these days dealing with some of that stuff. But, yeah, like I can't imagine Marlins back under that current deal. But I also think he's a proud guy who it matters to him to be in Baltimore. He'd love to finish his career. So he'll probably play ball with them. And he's not getting anywhere close to that on the open market. So maybe there's some leeway there. The Matabike thing is the biggest head scratcher. They just kind of he's been in the building. Everyone says it's upbeat. He said some stuff on social media that lead you to believe he's gotten some good news.

34:55Jesse Minter: But they won't talk about it, and he won't make himself available to talk about it. So, yeah, they have so many decisions. They have both an offensive and defensive line that badly need to be fortified. They have questions at receiver. They need a high-impact edge rusher. So Eric DaCosta has his hands full this offseason.

35:13Robert Mays: I will be so interested in what their free agent shopping looks like. because I think beyond those, there are certain spots, and this is going to be a theme as we talk about all of these teams that have needs at this position. Holloway Gilman and Adarius Washington are hitting free agency. We know this is a team that you want two capable starters at safety so you can use Kyle Hamilton the way that you want to. This is a free agent group where you can pay$7 million,$8 million a year for a starting safety and find one. I assume they might be in that market. But other than that, you look at some of the other guys available

35:42Paul Dehner Jr.: and the price they'd have to pay to get them, it's out of character for what the Baltimore Ravens normally are but if you can get Lamar's number down in a big way and you have some money to throw around this is actually the team where I look at a guy like Jalen Phillips and I'm like you know what that you could talk me into that

35:59Jesse Minter: pretty quickly yeah I I think you know we had this discussion last year I remember distinctively do this is the offseason they need to take a big swing they need to go out and get themselves an edge rusher that can change a game that can, you know, you want to stop blowing leads, get an edge rusher. That's going to get you off the field late in the fourth quarter. You want to create more turnovers when you get to the playoffs. They don't create turnovers when they get to the playoffs. That's part of the issue. They turn the ball over. They don't create, you get a guy that can strip sack and get to the quarterback and do all that.

36:29Jesse Minter: They just, they've had some okay pass rushers. I think Mike Crean will eventually be good, but you need that. You have a bunch of guys hitting

36:37Paul Dehner Jr.: free agency. So even beyond, you can still be mildly optimistic about Mike Green's development and still come to the conclusion of we need to be aggressive.

36:45Jesse Minter: Yeah, exactly. And if Matt Abike doesn't come back and is not able to play, you know, Travis Jones is a nice piece, but you need two other guys there. So yeah, it's a, there's a real lot and a lot of uncertainty. And you know, the DaCosta angle is interesting to me because he's a very celebrated general manager. He's done a very good job in a lot of ways. I do not think he had a good off season last year. Um, you know, John Harbaugh is one of his best friends. I think this has really hit him hard just having to let go of John and you know, now it's kind of on Eric. John shielded a lot in this organization over the years where he took a lot of arrows that other people didn't take.

37:25Jesse Minter: So I could see a very motivated Eric to cost to saying, you know what? I know how we do things here. I know how I've always do things. We need to change it up a little, get a little more aggressive on different fronts. Maybe they go out and make a trade for a legit piece here and willing to give up some draft capital. Maybe that's signing one of the top edge rushers like Jalen Phillips that's going to be available in free agency. But you'd say all that and they need to get their finances in order. They need to create a little more flexibility to do some things.

37:55Robert Mays: Looking at their picks, I'm always curious what picks will be in the couch cushions for the Baltimore Ravens. We have four fifth round picks for the Ravens this year. It's just every single year. It's hilarious. And like you open it up like a present and you're just wondering what's in there. So the Ravens right now, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10. They have 11 picks, which is actually on the low end for them, which is that that's the funny part about this. And so they'll do the same things they typically do. And when it comes to the draft, but they do have some pieces to throw around if they did want to make a trade.

38:24Robert Mays: I think that's kind of the point here. So the defensive line, Matt Abike becomes the biggest swing piece, because if he comes back, that's the biggest piece that you can.

38:32Jesse Minter: That's one of the biggest things they could do in the entire off season. It would be the biggest addition. He comes in

38:37Robert Mays: and if he can be even close to the player he used to be, what that does to your interior pass rush, obviously elevates the entire unit. If they go out and get an edge rusher, I agree with you. And the fact that it seems like this might be the time to get a little bit aggressive with it.

38:49Paul Dehner Jr.: Like if I always a free agent, like there are guys that of their guys available that can give you juice as pass rushers. So trying to go out and get that piece in the market, I think that makes sense. Again, a starting caliber safety that may be a little bit more of a modest ad, that makes sense. But then you go to the offensive side, there are still needs on the offensive side. Right now, I think you could make a very serious argument that they probably need to address all three interior starting offensive line spots in some way with Falele and Linderbaum hitting free agency.

39:20Jesse Minter: I would agree with that 100%. Now, they do like Emory Jones, their third-round pick last year. That's right, yes. But you can't leave it to a young player who basically had a redshirt year last year.

39:31Paul Dehner Jr.: If that's a solution at one of the guard spots, fine. But that still leaves two other spots where leader bomb, obviously, that's the biggest question. But do you feel good about Andrew Voorhees after the way the last couple years went?

39:42Jesse Minter: I mean, I think that's up for discussion. Yeah, and then, you know, swing tackle is a huge position in Baltimore when Ronnie Stanley's hurt a lot. Like you need another starting tackle. So, and that's absolutely right because you look at different things and, you know, yeah, Marlon Humphrey, legitimate cut cannon. Well, what do you do at cornerback? Who's starting opposite Nate Wiggins? Who's your number three cornerback? And then you open, you can't keep opening these holes. Like at some point you need to figure it some out with the guys you have because you already have enough holes to fill.

40:15Jesse Minter: and yeah absolutely two starting offensive linemen interior and you know we'll see about the linderbaum situation but i think there seems to be a groundswell among the fans of let them go like that's too much for center we have too many needs but that's daunting to find three starting interior offensive linemen in the offseason now people say the bears did it but there's different levels to what they need how much they can spend how you go about doing this and um look i just think you kind of yeah you're gonna have to overpay Linderbaum but it's one of those things where what's the alternative the alternative isn't pretty when you have to fill three starting interior spots in front of Lamar Jackson I want to walk through just the process with Linderbaum

40:55Robert Mays: with you because yeah obviously they DeCosta comes out this week says we've offered him a market setting contract okay so whatever that means it doesn't really matter the details but they're willing to go to an aggressive place to bring him back reportedly but if that's the case

41:10Paul Dehner Jr.: why did it take this long for them to give him or offer him that sort of deal like the fact that we're on the eve of free agency and these are kind of the dynamics we're playing with something about it just feels a little bit off like why weren't they more motivated to get this done earlier if they saw him as that type of player well a couple things well one the the comments

41:29Jesse Minter: from da costa and anybody who's followed the ravens like you have obviously and know how eric does business. For him to put that on the street when he won't even confirm offers ever certainly tells you there's probably some frustration right now and how those negotiations are going.

41:45Paul Dehner Jr.: And maybe that's the story, right? It takes two sides. Yeah. Yes.

41:49Jesse Minter: But like, could you blame Neil Cornridge, Linderbaum's agent for, you know, we know these talks happened this week for shopping around, seeing what's out there and saying, OK, we could get this Ravens. What are you going to give us? But so I think it's clear that the engagement between both sides. There hasn't been a lot of cooperation. There hasn't been a lot of aggressiveness here to get a deal done. And Linderbaum's side is pretty content where he is. The other thing which I found interesting, Robert, they declined his fifth-year option, right?

42:18Paul Dehner Jr.: Well, that's the interesting part about this set of negotiations overall, is that for a lot of players, if you were willing to offer a market-setting contract to a player, the answer would be if you can't figure something out, you just tag a guy. But because we're in a spot with the offensive line franchise tag and some of the just the quirks around how you'd have to pay a center in that situation that's how you arrive here yeah and and there's two reasons why they

42:44Jesse Minter: declined the fifth year option and then none of them have anything to do with them not wanting to have Tyler Linderham one was the number was so ridiculously high because of how centers are grouped with tackles the other was if you recall like two summers ago Linderbaum had the neck issue missed most of training camp with the neck issue. So I don't think that's an everyday issue they're worried about, but we know necks in the Ravens organization has not been a good story. So if they picked up the fifth-year option, it would have been guaranteed for this year. So if he went out last year and had a recurrence of that issue and had a major deal, he would have already been guaranteed this year.

43:22Jesse Minter: So I think they kind of were protecting themselves by not picking that up, where if something happened with that situation and there was a recurrence of it, They weren't on the hook for it for this coming year, but now they got to deal with it. And, you know, he's going to get paid. He's going to get paid well over$20 million, whether it's by them or somebody else. And, you know, I could see both sides of it, but you better have a plan to replace him. You know, and that plan can't be using one of those day three picks to try to find a

43:50Robert Mays: plug and play guy. It's a really interesting conversation about resource allocation and how much you're willing to stretch yourself at one position specifically. and let's say, let's just play this out hypothetically. Let's say he moves on. He gets, what is the highest, what is the biggest contract for a center in the NFL right now? 18 million for Creed Humphrey. So let's say it ends up becoming 20 million for Tyler Linderbaum because you have four to five teams in the mix here, which wouldn't surprise me whatsoever. You got teams like the Raiders who need a starting center. Chargers that have a ton of money to throw around.

44:21Robert Mays: That's what drives the number up. Let's say it ends up settling somewhere around$20 million. There are other guys in free agency just throwing out hypothetical names, Cade Maze, people like that, where you could potentially pay 55 % of that for starting caliber center.

44:36Paul Dehner Jr.: And so that's the calculus of your Eric DaCosta that you have to play with a little bit here.

44:40Jesse Minter: Yep, yep. And I'm sure those conversations will be had this week, who else we could get. And when you need a guy on the center's right and the center's left, that adds to it. Like how many guys, how many realistic...

44:53Robert Mays: You get two starters for that$20 million. Exactly, yeah.

44:55Jesse Minter: Like, how many guys can we get for this? And who could some of these guys on the radar? And look, the quarterbacks had a heavy role in everything they've done, and he's pretty close to Tyler Linderbaum. And you wonder how much Lamar Jackson's opinion, look, we can't let this guy leave. And you wonder how that opinion adds to the situation. It's a very tough call. But you just know the Ravens and how they do business. Rarely do they let guys like Tyler Linderbaum walk out of the building without a significant fight. Sometimes they just throw up their hands in the air and say, look, we can't afford the guy.

45:28Jesse Minter: We know he's a great player. We love him. But go get your money because we'll take the comp pick because we can't afford him. But man, given their situation with where they are in the interior offensive line, that would be a tough one just to let walk out of the building.

45:40Paul Dehner Jr.: So this this like feeling that we're talking about here with increased urgency, they need to spend a little bit more. Do you think that's something that we're projecting onto them? or as you've talked to people and gotten a sense of where they are, do you think that's the feeling they have right now?

45:56Jesse Minter: I think there's a feeling that they clearly need to be more aggressive this offseason. It's fun. I'm into that. Yeah, you've got a fan base that's really frustrated. You're going to want to hit the ground running with Jesse Minter and give him every opportunity to succeed immediately. And I think you've got a motivated Eric DaCosta who knows. It's kind of on him now. Not that it wasn't before, but, you know, all eyes are pointed at him now. And you've got the quarterback situation. So, yeah, I expect them to be more aggressive than what we're used to. And that aggression comes in different ways, right?

46:34Jesse Minter: It doesn't necessarily mean throwing money at the top free agents, but I think they're going to have to do that. They're going to have to make a couple forays onto the free agent market because you know they don't like going to the draft with major holes. You know, they want to be able to sit at 14 and not worry about position, and just say, okay, we're going to pick the best guy. You can't do that unless you start filling some of these holes before the draft.

46:56Robert Mays: Yeah, it's a different sort of feeling for the Baltimore Ravens offseason, and I will be paying a lot more attention to what the Ravens are going to do

47:03Paul Dehner Jr.: on the first couple days of free agency than I would in a typical year, I would say. Jeff Zarebek, always great to chat with you, sir. Sincerely appreciate the time. We'll do it again very soon. Enjoy it, Robert. Thank you. All right, before we talk to Zach Berman about the Eagles, we're going to take one more quick break.

47:22Robert Mays: joining us now it is one of our wonderful eagles writers here at the athletic zach berman how you doing man doing great thanks for having me we could start this conversation at a bunch of different places here here's where i want to start it from the outside looking in because

47:37Paul Dehner Jr.: since the last time you and i talked it was about speculation about who the offense coordinator would be we talked a lot about sean manny and that's why i didn't feel like i feel like the

47:44Robert Mays: conversation held up even though he got hired two hours after we stopped talking since that happened, a million things have taken place with the Philadelphia Eagles.

47:53Paul Dehner Jr.: From the outside looking in, if I'm somebody who doesn't understand all of the context and the nuance around this, and I watch Jeff Stoutland retire, is that the right phrase? No, I would not say retire. I would say leave. If I watch Jeff Stoutland leave, if I see the speculation about, is Landon Dickerson going to play in 2026? Is Lane Johnson going to play in 2026? it feels to me like there's just a little bit of smoke about what is going on in that building and just how tenuous things feel there. Do you think that is a fair representation? And I want you to tell me how I should feel about everything that's happened at the NovaCare complex in the last three or four weeks.

48:35Jeff Zrebiec: It's a fair question. I think I would separate those two things. I think the Jeff Stoutland question and all that goes around with it has more to do with the changes in the coaching staff changing the offense. I think the Lane Johnson, Landon Dickerson speculation before it was determined they would come back, that's more health-related, right? That's kind of just players who play a physical position beat up at the end of the year. So I would separate those two things. But I think the first one, the coaching staff changes, the scheme changes, some of the philosophical changes. I think that's real and it has a major effect because Jeff Stoutland, I've covered the team.

49:16Jeff Zrebiec: This will be my 15th year. He's the best assistant coach I've seen.

49:20Paul Dehner Jr.: I'm looking at this team and I think that you listen to Howie Roseman talk yesterday and you have the idea of trading A.J.

49:25Robert Mays: Brown. And, you know, do we really want to be in the business of trading away good players?

49:29Paul Dehner Jr.: And I think there are two different ways that I'm looking at the situation that Eagles are currently in. One, is this another offseason where you tinker with some members of the coaching staff, you add a couple new pieces, and you thrust this team right back into contention? Or is this an offseason where it feels like this is a group playing out the string? And I don't know where between those two places I land right now.

49:53Jeff Zrebiec: Yeah, it's a good point because a lot of it depends on what happens with A.J. I do think there's a window with this offensive core. And part of this is if you just follow the money. the Eagles have had all these defensive players on rookie contracts those guys are going to have to start getting paid in the next one to 15 months let's say right and so that's gonna that naturally all these 20 million dollar a year players that they have on offense whether it's the offensive line wide receiver like that's going to start to change and so there is going to be an influx of young cost-controlled offensive talent that said that young cost-controlled offensive talent's not going to be what helps them win a Super Bowl next year.

50:32Jeff Zrebiec: And that's obviously their goal. So there's a window with this offensive core that has been to two Super Bowls. That's one-on-one. But a lot of that depends on what happens with A.J. Brown. And if A.J. Brown forces the issue, because there's no, I don't think there's a good argument for trading A.J. Brown from a football perspective. But if you're like, look, the toothpaste can't go back in the tube. A.J. has, he's been on record stating he wants to be the best receiver in the league. If he doesn't feel that can be accomplished here based on scheme based on personnel however you want to frame it um then you move on yet compensation i i don't think they would willingly do it i think it's more if the issue gets forced on them and i think there's a real chance that could happen and if aj's not on the team he's such a special player that the offensive dynamics change and then it goes into you're definitely not playing out the string then you're tinkering for sure

51:23Robert Mays: the AJ Brown question and just the problem for me is if I'm looking at it and just the mechanics of dealing him in the money I'm sure you've looked at this yeah can you just talk me through just the practical reality of what it would mean if they were to trade him like how could they afford to do that with the dead money that they would incur as I'm looking at it just like from the

51:43Jeff Zrebiec: outsider's perspective yeah so if now if they were to trade him post-June first yes that's there's Yes, but even pre-June 1st, one thing I know about the Eagles is they're not scared of dead money. A lot of it's how they structure contracts with the void years to begin with. They're actually much more interested in potential cash savings. So, like, they really separate the cap and the cash. So they can take something on the chin cap-wise sometimes, structure new contracts in such a way that they have low cap numbers, but have cash to spend. And if they were to trade AJ, it would save a significant amount of cash that can then be redistributed for, let's say, in theory, a Jalen Carter contract extension, a Jordan Davis contract extension, eventual Cooper DeGene and Quinion Mitchell contract extensions, or even short-term, a Jalen Phillips contract.

52:32Jeff Zrebiec: Although, you know, I mean, that's independent of A.J. Brown. But I think they can absorb a cap hit. It could limit them in some other areas. But, you know, they have some real smart people in that building. Bryce Johnston is one who really kind of puts the cap numbers together. And there are opportunities there that I don't think it would preclude them from putting the roster that they want together. And they're actually cash savings. I think it's not a financial question. It's a football question. How do you have the offense you need without A.J. Brown?

53:07Robert Mays: Looking at their cap is just hilarious every single time I open it. So the only players right now on the Philadelphia Eagles who don't have a base salary under like 1.3 or 1.4 million dollars are all the guys on rookie contracts. So Jordan Davis, Mauro, Jomo, Tyler Steen, Nolan Smith or Michael Carter, who was not an Eagle when he signed that contract. I assume he's going to be a cap casualty. Yes, exactly. in the next spring. So essentially every single player on the Eagles, other than the rookie contract players have base salaries of$1.3 million or less.

53:41Jeff Zrebiec: Yes. But then the fascinating, I'm glad you brought this up. This is actually a topic that really interests me. And I'm writing about it on the athletic this week is the Eagles haven't constrained. It's a bad roster. If you believe in the, in the middle class, their roster strategy is stars and then rookie contracts and one-year lottery ticket players, because you pointed out the base salary and you're correct about that. But then if you look at the average annual salary, they went into last season with as many$20 million a year players as anyone in the league. They only had one guy making between $7 and$15 million going into the year.

54:15Jeff Zrebiec: They don't do the middle class. But then I think they had eight or nine players making above$17 million. And I've spoken to Howie Roseman about this, and his whole point is difference-making players. You pay for difference-making players, and then you have to make tough decisions elsewhere. So let's kind of look at their free agents in conjunction with this conversation. They have four big free agents, Jalen Phillips, Dallas Goddard, Reed Blankenship, and N 'Kobe Dean. If you just look at it from a financial perspective, Reed Blankenship is probably, let's say, like a$10 million a year player.

54:46Jeff Zrebiec: That's not the type of market that the Eagles tend to shop in. Jalen Phillips is probably a$25 million a year player. That's the market the Eagles shop in. So they're more apt to keep Jalen Phillips and let the other three go than they would be to sign three middle-class players from my perspective.

55:00Robert Mays: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that the Zach Bond comparison is the one you would make with the Jalen Phillips thing where when Zach Bond has a season that he has, he suddenly becomes one of those players, and that's why he gets retained.

55:10Paul Dehner Jr.: In your estimation, do you think that Jalen Phillips does come back?

55:14Jeff Zrebiec: I think they're going to try like crazy to do it. I think, and knowing Howie, he'll have a walkaway number. But I think that's a premium player at a premium position. You know the fit. The interesting thing about Jalen Phillips is because they traded for him, that's typically the type of guy who they would have tried to sign to an extension early. So if he was Jalen Carter or he was Jordan Davis, you're trying to get that deal done before he's a contract year. Instead, they trade for him halfway through his final season. But he was, and I don't need to tell you, he was terrific. He's what Vic Fangio looks for on the edge.

55:51Jeff Zrebiec: And I think he is the type of player they would pay. But this is a bad free agents class. And he is, I mean, Daniel Popper did outstanding rankings, as we know. It's a bad free agency class for the Eagles, right?

56:02Paul Dehner Jr.: Like, they're not the types of players the Eagles are going to be signed. It's a free agency class full of Reed Blankenship.

56:07Jeff Zrebiec: Sure, exactly. Well said. And so, like, you know, Jalen Phillips is the number three player on Daniel Popper's board. If you're looking at$27 million, that might be too rich for the Eagles. And I think, like, last year, the Eagles really liked Milton Williams. They knew they had no shot at signing Milton Williams. It's a different situation because they had D tackles in the building already, but there will be a number that might be too high for Jalen Phillips, and then they need to pivot.

56:33Robert Mays: Other than edge and potentially bringing Jalen Phillips back, you said D tackle is a position where they have multiple guys they feel good about. Obviously, you draft John Campbell in the first round last year. That allows you to move on from the Kobe Dean.

56:44Paul Dehner Jr.: Safety and corner feels like those are two spots where something probably needs to happen and they probably need to address those. How do you think those second safety and corner spots get addressed this offseason?

56:55Jeff Zrebiec: It's a great question because that's one where they've tried to plug some players in the draft, and it hasn't quite worked the way they wanted to. You know, they used the third-round pick to trade up for Keely Ringo. They traded for Ja 'Cory and Bennett last year. They drafted Mack McWilliams. And, like, you're hoping one of these guys would emerge into a starter opposite Quinion Mitchell and with Cooper DeGene. And so I should start with this. They feel like they have two elite cornerbacks, and they feel like Cooper DeGene can play every position in the secondary. And so, but I spoke to Cooper about this.

57:29Jeff Zrebiec: He wants to play the slot. He thinks that's where.

57:32Paul Dehner Jr.: It's the best solution. When you have a guy that's elite in that position, one, just streamlining what they're doing, I think, makes them better in that role. And two, we've just seen over the last couple of years how valuable it is to have an elite player in that position specifically.

57:44Jeff Zrebiec: You're absolutely right. So then who's that corner on the outside opposite of Quinion Mitchell? Last year was Adore Jackson. I don't think that was the desired outcome going into the year. I think they would have loved the Keeley Ringo on that job.

57:56Robert Mays: It was a problem from day one.

57:57Jeff Zrebiec: Like literally the first game of the season, we realized how much of an issue it was going to be. And so Adore improved over the year, but I don't think they're going to keep Adore. Or I think that's the type of thing where you probably look for this year's Adore, which is like a veteran on a one-year deal, and he's competing in camp. And you try to figure it out that way. The second safety spot's harder. because Reed Blankenship on paper is the type of guy you would want to keep. I mean, he's a captain of the team, homegrown player, went from undrafted rookie to defensive captain, started for them for Super Bowl champs.

58:29Jeff Zrebiec: But I don't see them paying$10,$11 million for Reed Blankenship. So how do you solve that spot next to Drew Makuba? It could be a rookie. I mean, they were hoping Sidney Brown would develop. That hasn't really happened. So I think that's also where Howie knows that you can't have blue chip talent at every spot. And even if you look at the Super Bowl rosters this year, like, you know, the safeties, they had some weaknesses. You look at the Patriots, you know, that they were getting by with some league average.

58:59Paul Dehner Jr.: One year deals for Hawkins. Fourth round pick for Craig Woodson. Even if you look at the Seahawks, like it's the guys that they have. Kobe Bryant was a mid-round pick. Who's the other Seahawks safety that I'm blanking on right now? It was Julian Luff. Julian Luff, yeah. So it's there are guys that you're not paying a ton of money. And that not even just the makeup of the best teams and the best defenses in the NFL. But if you look at it, the Eagles, in terms of how they view positional value, it has been somewhat of a moving target based on how the league has changed. Right. Like the idea that the Eagles would sign Saquon Barkley to that contract eight years ago would have seemed shocking.

59:33Paul Dehner Jr.: The idea that the Eagles would draft Jahad Campbell in the first round would have seemed shocking. But Drew Makuba is the highest drafted safety the Eagles have had since when? Malcolm Jenkins?

59:42Jeff Zrebiec: They signed Jenkins. That's right. That's right. Yeah, so since Jaquan Jarrett, I would, or Nate Allen, yeah, since Jaquan Jarrett. Yeah, it's been a long time.

59:51Robert Mays: Even a second-round pick at safety for the Eagles is kind of out of character.

59:55Paul Dehner Jr.: So I would not be surprised if they kind of, all right, let's take a couple low-cost dice rolls and see if one works out. The other question that I'm really interested in, Howie said something when Brooks Camino wrote about it yesterday, and just kind of recapping what Howie said at the combine, he said something that I don't know if a lot of other people would pick up on, but for me, it's like my Spidey sense started tingling. he was talking about the types of tight ends he usually seeks out and he was saying that again talking about and i think how he deserves a lot of credit for this where over time he has not been

1:00:23Robert Mays: dogmatic and how he sees certain types of players and what their value is and so he was talking yesterday about how when you look at the types of tight ends he has sought out for the roster it has often been pass catching type guys exactly your calcaterras your kylan grances even jared dell scott is a more well-rounded player than this but especially the depth at tight end blocking

1:00:41Paul Dehner Jr.: tight end has not been a role on this team. And so him being as kind of forceful and transparent as he was about that yesterday, I think that's going to be a skill set they seek out. And it brings me to a question of, now that we have Sean Mannion in the building, and we assume the offense will stray a little bit further from the model we've seen under Nick Sirianni for the last five years, how do you think that impacts personnel decisions and maybe new types of guys they seek out that the Eagles traditionally haven't on that side of the ball.

1:01:12Jeff Zrebiec: Yeah, I'm curious about this because they clearly want to go to this Shanahan McVay style. You know, you're going to see more under center. You're going to see more play action. You're going to see more wide zone running. And, you know, I spoke to Nick Sirianni extensively last week about this. And I should say we, the Philly media did. And yeah, this is a change. Like this is not going to be the offense you've seen in the past but i don't think how he can totally adjust the player acquisition part of it because you don't know what this is going to look like in 2026 yes you i'm sorry 2027 you still need to just get really good players and then and then the coach know to figure it out but to your point how he's view of the tight end position has evolved and i think within that there are roles that will be adjusted the fascinating thing is the offensive line because how he and Jeff Stoutland, you know, for the past 13 years, if you and I were talking at the combine, I could tell you what a Jeff Stoutland offensive lineman is going to be.

1:02:12Jeff Zrebiec: Right. And, and you can see like the certain critical factors that, that, that player has, uh, there's a lot of traits that, that you, because you're, you're, you're kind of saying if you take a player with traits, he can develop them. You know, Jeff Stoutland has that track record of, of development and the Eagles have had these, these big physical offensive linemen. I mean, they're the first guys off the bus that you want to see, whether you're talking about, you know, Jordan Mailata, Landon Dickerson, you know, obviously Lane Johnson, a right tackle. I mean, look what he did with Mekhi Becton, a right guard.

1:02:45Jeff Zrebiec: You know, so it's a little different than I think you're going to look for more agility, more speed. It's weird to say speed, but more agility and athleticism at some of those offensive line spots in this system. But I can't imagine how he deviating from the way he's evaluated offensive linemen.

1:03:06Paul Dehner Jr.: I'll be curious about that because I will say one thing. If you look at, so Mannion specifically comes from Green Bay, right? So when you look at Green Bay, their run game has been a little bit of everything over the last few years. And they do have some guys on the lighter side, but a guy like Aaron Banks is not a small offensive lineman. And then if you even extend that a little bit further, the Vikings have been a decent amount of zone run when Mannion was there. But then you can expand it a little bit further. I think the Rams are a really good example of this, where even if the DNA of the offense comes from that place, when the Rams got a lot bigger along the offensive line, their run approach changed.

1:03:42Paul Dehner Jr.: It wasn't as much zone. It was a lot more gap scheme stuff as the offensive line got bigger. And so I wonder, because that group has a little bit more size, where do they land in between that gap heavy world that the Rams have been in and the zone heavy world that these guys traditionally come from?

1:03:59Jeff Zrebiec: Well said. And I think when this group's healthy, and that's a big question because they were really banged up last year, but there shouldn't be a coach in the league who wouldn't want these five as your offensive line. Like this is a Super Bowl caliber offensive line, so you can make it work, and I think these guys are good enough. Like Lane Johnson can play in any offense. Yeah, yes. He's incredible. I think most of these guys probably could. Yeah, I think the one who maybe you have a little more questions about is Landon Dickerson. but I think Landon Dickerson too can play in any offense.

1:04:30Robert Mays: Yeah. Well, I was looking at it when you were talking just because I was curious about it. So if you look back at tight ends specifically, the last 15 years for the Philadelphia Eagles, they've drafted four tight ends in the last 15 years, which in and of itself is kind of a shockingly low number, but there's a couple of different considerations there. One, this has been an 11 personnel team for a very long time. And so the fact that they have not prioritized that position is necessarily surprising.

1:04:54Paul Dehner Jr.: But even if you look at those four guys, of those four, only one of them weighed more than 240 pounds. And that was Dallas Goddard. And so beyond the fact that they haven't prioritized it, the body types they've sought out, they haven't drafted a blocking tight end in a decade and a half. This might be the year where something like that happens.

1:05:14Jeff Zrebiec: Yeah, it's a good point. And I personally think blocking tight end is, you know, you don't need to spend major resources on it.

1:05:22Robert Mays: You can get them in the fourth or fifth round. and that's when you get those guys.

1:05:25Jeff Zrebiec: But assuming, or if Dallas Goddard's not back, you need to figure out who your top tight end is. And you ideally would want to complete tight ends. And Dallas, earlier on, I don't think he was the best run blocker this year, but he's been a good blocker in the past. But you bring up a great point about tight end because really the luxury the Eagles had is they take Zach Ertz in the second round in 2013. He takes over for Brent Selick, who is a really good tight end. Zach Ertz is a starting tight end for them. really through 2021. They take Dallas Goddard in the second round in 2018, and he's the succession plan.

1:06:01Jeff Zrebiec: He takes over. And so it's kind of like the offensive tackle situation for the Eagles, where at left tackle, they went from Trey Thomas to Jason Peters to Jordan Maialata. They went from Brent Selick to Zach Ertz to Dallas Goddard. The difference here is they don't have someone waiting in the wings to take over here. And so whether it's in the draft, via trade, via free agency, they're going to have to find that number one tight end because it is going to be an important role in this offense.

1:06:26Robert Mays: This is a team that every single year they're doing something. They're replacing coordinators because they got hired to be head coaches. They're replacing coordinators because those guys got fired.

1:06:34Paul Dehner Jr.: Like this is a yearly thing every single winter and spring for the Eagles where there's going to be some level of turnover. And I think that each year has been a little bit different. You know, like when they, when they replaced those guys after the 2023 season with Vic Fangio and Kellen Moore, I think Like, even if in most years where you're replacing two coordinators that were fired, there would be a level of, like, apprehension and concern. But I didn't feel that that year as much because of the guys that were replacing them, right? Like, when you can get Kellen Moore and Vic Fangio, there's a level of stability that comes along with that.

1:07:05Paul Dehner Jr.: And so I wonder, as you think about this version of the team, how much, like, uncertainty and instability does it feel like there is right now compared to previous off-seasons? Yeah, offensively, very much so.

1:07:21Jeff Zrebiec: So the reason I hesitate is instability is an interesting word there. I think curiosity, because with Kellen Moore, they wanted an established play caller. This year's search, I think Nick started the search looking for an established play caller. Mike McDaniel, I talked about the last time I was on with you, Mike McDaniel and Brian Dable. As the search evolved, and Nick said he interviewed 17 candidates that had seven in for four-second interviews. he softened that prerequisite if you will and it really became there was conviction that uh he saw from sean mannion there but it's completely unknown to have a 33 year old offense coordinator hasn't caught plays who's coached in the nfl for two years he's been a position coach nothing else and now he's he's you're you're taking i think jalen is not i mean he's a super bowl winning quarterback but he's gonna be asked to do things differently than he's done in the past i mean this this is going to be a different offense.

1:08:16Jeff Zrebiec: You have an offensive lineman of blue chip players. We'll see what happens with AJ, but two elite wide receivers. You have one of the best running backs of the past decade, and you're taking these guys and you're saying, all right, let's run a different scheme. It could be re-energizing, but it could fall flat, right? I think it's a little different than Kellen Moore when you had a sense of what it was going to look like with Kellen Moore.

1:08:42Robert Mays: yet another year where it feels like the range of outcomes associated with the Philadelphia Eagles is as wide as you can possibly imagine Zach Berman always great to see you my friend always great to chat with you appreciate the time we'll do it again very soon I look forward to it

1:08:55Paul Dehner Jr.: thank you all right guys that's all we got for today thank you so much to Zach thank you so much to Paul thank you to Jeff Zarebeck really enjoyed those three conversations hope you guys did as well we will be back tomorrow get the game back together me Derek Dave breaking down the week that was at the 2026 NFL Combine. It'll be our last show of the week. Monday, we will have a Combine recap coming your way with Dave and Dane, who, I mean, Dane is,

1:09:21Robert Mays: you should see Dane this week. He's just a pig and shit. Like, no one has ever been happier than how Dane Brugler is when he is at the Combine. I got to have dinner with him last night, which was shocking that he actually had the time to swing it, but very enjoyable on that front.

1:09:34Paul Dehner Jr.: Great week. Really enjoyed talking to all the writers. Really appreciate everybody who took the time to jump on with us for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.