The players and coaches defining the 2025 NFL season

0:03Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays. We got a fun one on tap today. Our old friend Nate Tice is here to do a little bit of a mid season. check-in. We did a little home and home this week. I did mid-season awards over on the football 301 feed, and we wanted to do kind of a mid-season perspective on the way the NFL season has kind of gone up to this point. We didn't want to do awards. We wanted to do something that was a little bit broader and more abstract than that. So we picked 10 guys that we think have just shaped the NFL nine weeks into the season. We wanted to do this kind of as a way to celebrate people who might not be in line for some of these awards, but also just coaches, other people who have made the league feel the way that it has felt over the first half of the 2025 season.

0:46So Nate and I each picked five guys landed on 10 characters that have kind of dictated NFL football in 2025. Really, really fun conversation. Had a great time. Hope you guys will as well. Let's get to it right now.

1:04time now for the second half of our little home and home podcast situation that we've done this week i was on football 301 doing mid-season awards yesterday and he is here to do our own version of a little mid-season check-in today it is our old friend nate tice how you doing buddy i'm doing great great to see you great to see you back at your place too you know the studio is amazing but this feels, you said home and home. This does feel like home again. Like it's not home in a way. This is back to home. Cause you're in your home, but no, great. It's funny because we don't, I don't normally do like solo shows from there, but we were doing the free agency live stream yesterday.

1:40And so I was like, am I really going to drive the 20 minutes home? Like that doesn't make sense. And so we did, it was the first time I've just sat on that set to do a podcast, which it was okay, but this does feel a little bit cozier. Yeah. You're back in your, you're back in your environment. You know, exactly where all the nooks and crannies are like, I'm feeling great. Yes, exactly. We, we did mid season awards yesterday. And so those were official awards, right? And so those are, who was the MVP who is, and we're going to do that on the athletic football show next week. So just for, to let you guys know, we are going to have our own version of the mid season awards.

2:09We waited until after week 10 for reasons that I don't really know. I'm not sure why we scheduled it that way. A month ago, six weeks ago. And you're like, I guess that we're, we do this all the time where I'll schedule out the mid mid week shows like six weeks at a time. And then we'll get to the end of those six weeks. I will not remember which dates we scheduled them for. And then I'd be like, oh, wait, I have to come up with more of those. It's definitely been a blind spot in my programming of the podcast feed over the course of the year. Scheduling midseason awards on the trade deadline day.

2:40I'm not going to lie. That was not supposed to be a package show. That was me going, we'll make it work. I've been doing this for 15 years and I still have no idea what the NFL calendar actually looks like. And thankfully there are people to let me know. So what we're going to do today is a slightly different version of a midseason check-in. I wanted to do this with you for a couple different reasons. One, I think it's just a fun exercise to celebrate some people who have shaped the NFL season, but maybe aren't the names at the top of those midseason awards. And, you know, I'll tell you and the audience this.

3:09I think you do a better job than anybody in this space of watching what's happening and kind of predicting where the trends are going to go, where the league is headed and kind of who is doing the shaping. And so I wanted to spend an hour with you today drilling down on that. Like who are the people who have made the NFL what it has been over the first nine weeks? And so you and I each picked out five. So we're going to have 10 ish. I always say ish when it comes to you and I and list names that we're going to shout out today to try to figure out. Backup options, backup backup options, slashes, slash, honorable mention.

3:42Yes. The goal in this exercise is to try to pin down and figure out why has the NFL felt the way that it has this year and who have been the important figures in dictating that. And so let's just get into it. Let's hear your first one, your first character that you think has shaped what the 2025 NFL season has felt like. This is one that's kind of been something actually I feel like years ago we did a free agency show. And that was maybe the first kind of indicator of what this was going to happen with this team. And that was a couple of coordinators ago, actually. this is the bills and it's reggie gilliam and jackson haas jackson haas is one of mine as well okay it is okay cool i this is something and really it's just been my recent kind of like thread i've been pulling and and and before the season uh i know i talked with you about i talked to multiple people i wrote an article did a pod because i'm a hack um about the same thing where i was like hey under center stuff tight end stuff that's all coming back multiple tight end looks And I think the Bills are the perfect kind of microcosm of exactly what's going on with the rest of the league.

4:43And for me, it's looking back to 2021 Bills to where they're at now, because I think 2020 Bills was just, oh, my God, look at this offense so fast. And so many receivers in 2021 was like more of that. But it felt like the Bills offense hit a wall. We talked about this a little bit on the show yesterday on my show. But it was just something that has been vividly in my brain is that Bucs game. I think it was week 13 in 2021 and where they're running all this RPOs, all these receivers, all this stuff. So I looked at it. I was like, OK, how much of a difference is it now to what the Bills are doing this year and really last year and maybe the year before that where they kind of lead into this?

5:19More tight ends, more Reggie Gilliam, who's tight end slash fullback. It was jumbo tight ends. Now it's Jackson Haas. Just the multiple personnel groupings that the Bills can get to now. They can still go 11 personnel and do a bunch of stuff, but they've had 12 unique personnel groupings this year. They have 110 plays with Gilliam and Haas on the field. They have a 70 % passing success rate with those two on the field, by the way, which I think is hilarious. They have 20 dropbacks, six explosive passes, too, which is just perfect. But in 2021, all right, so the Bills, 8.7 % of their plays had two or more tight ends.

5:52That was the lowest rate in the entire NFL. In 2025, it's 29%, which is about middle of the pack, 19th. They had 110 plays in 2021 with zero tight ends on the field. This year, they have zero plays with zero tight ends on the field. They had 98 plays with four or more receivers on the field, which is the second highest in the league going to be on the Cardinals. This year, they have one play with four or more receivers on the field. Two or fewer receivers. They had the second lowest rate. So that's kind of how I've kind of been able to kind of narrow, hey, 12, 21. Yeah, two or fewer receivers is a good way to bucket that, actually.

6:26I should have. Yeah, that's cool. That's how I've learned to kind of filter it. I mean, I guess we could talk about this off air, but that's how I've learned how to filter it. That's kind of like a better way. to look at it, but second lowest rate in the NFL in 2021 with two or fewer receivers. This year, they're middle of the pack, 16th, 37.6%. But the thing is, it's not just like, oh, do it to do. It's not a magic wand, more tight ends, more play action, all that stuff, not a magic wand. The results are striking when you look at what they're able to do from these looks with early downs with two or fewer receivers, their first knee pay per play, second and rushing success rate third and success rate fourth and passing success rate it's tangible the the kind of what they put on defenses and what they make defenses try to adapt to what they're doing because they're comfortable getting into these fullback looks these tall tight end looks these spread looks when they want to get to and it's just cool to see the layers year after year after year that this offense has added personnel wise scheme wise and everything so i i think those two are kind of the what they're indicative of what the rest of this offense and the transition that's gone under Josh Allen and now Joe Brady as the coordinator.

7:29I love that. And I think I had Jackson Hawes for similar reasons to that, but also kind of offshoot reasons to that. And so I tweeted something earlier this season while going back and watching tape. And I think it was, I think I was watching, I can't remember which team I was watching in a negative way. It might have been the Broncos. It might've been like three or four weeks into the season. I was watching the Broncos offense. You know, the Broncos tight end depth is Adam Troutman and Nate Adkins and it's kind of whatever, but they still use a decent amount of heavy personnel because there's a lot of personnel variety on the Broncos.

8:00And I'm watching the Broncos run game with these multiple tight ends on the field. And then you contrast that to a team like the Bills. And my prevailing thought coming out of that was you can find out who the good offenses and the Broncos have gotten better on offense since then. But I think a general rule, you can find out and realize just by watching the tight ends, who the good offenses are and who the bad offenses are in the NFL. Do your can your tight ends block and do they want to block right? Do they give a shit about blocking? And so I think those are Connected, but also there are nuances as to why they're different And so that part of it where if you can get two tight ends on the field that want to block that goes such a long way In you know how it affects your run game How it affects so many things that you can do because they're viable players that you can keep on the field And I think jackson haws is a very good example of that And I think there are so many teams that have struggled with those looks this year.

8:51Like when the Eagles early in the season were using so much more 12 personnel, their second blocking tight end was such a zero that it was hurting their offense consistently when they were trying to run out of those looks. And so I think that's part of it. The other part of it is how are you creating like four and five man surfaces in the run game with more big bodies? The bills are doing it with multiple tight ends. The Bills are doing with a lot of 13 personnel, a lot of 22 personnel. Well, that's not how the Bills did it last year. The Bills last year were the team pushing forward all of the jumbo looks that we were seeing in the NFL.

9:26Well, now because they have Jackson Hawes, he solves a lot of those same problems while being an actual pass catcher compared to like an Alec Anderson. And so the Bills have gone away from six offensive linemen looks this year, but the league has adopted them and the league has adopted them for, I think, two reasons. One, because there are so many second and third tight ends or non-factors in the run game, if we're trying to create those surfaces, why don't I just put another offensive lineman out there? That's the only viable way I can attack the edges in the run game. And two, more and more personnel groupings that used to immediately elicit base defense don't anymore.

10:0312 personnel teams play nickel to it. 21 now even. More and more teams are playing nickel to 21. So the only way that you can dictate personnel or the only sure way that you can dictate personnel to opposing defenses right now is essentially 13 or 22 or six offensive linemen. And so the Bills can do with Jackson Hawes because he's a viable blocker. But so many of these other teams are doing it by adding a six offensive linemen to the field. The Eagles are doing that more now. I mean, just the percentages that we're seeing over the last month or so are ticking up and up and up. The Bears are doing it more.

10:34The Dolphins were doing it a lot against the Ravens. And so that idea of how can I put the right amount of big bodies on the field to dictate the way the game is going to go to opposing defenses? Jackson Hawes is an example of that, in part because of what the Bills are doing and also in part because of what the Bills aren't doing anymore because they have Jackson Hawes. So I think in so many ways, he's like an interesting kind of inflection point for how offensive football in the NFL feels this year. They learn the right lessons. And it's I mean, I can only I can't remember how many times you and I got frustrated with the Chargers offense under Joe Lombardi.

11:11And and really it was more the personnel. And it was just more, oh, Gerald Everett's our only tight end on the roster. OK, what's running? Oh, God. OK, that play just got nuked. And people are always talking about the offensive line. I was like, well, they don't have a tight end that can block. So they only can do a certain amount of runs. So they're already screwed before they even line up, even if the offensive line was good. and just seeing just the transition and really in just our time period, even just kind of from we've worked together and onwards, it was that I just watching how teams went for so RPO heavy to just separating it runs passes.

11:44Okay. Now we've realized, Oh, okay. Everybody wanted to receiving tight end. Okay. They create mismatches. We get based on the field defenses went, well, we'll just go big nickel and we'll have our safety be the slot. And that became the standard now. I mean, that's the standard. It's more, trust me. I'm sure there's a couple. No, but that it's just kind of the again, it's just everybody reacts to what the other teams are doing, what they're seeing is working. But the thing is, you always need the tools to get to that point. And I think a lot of teams are just or even just more personnel or personnel departments, I should say, is realizing, OK, some of these blocking tight ends aren't total stiffs.

12:17And we also have to realize their usage. Josh Oliver is super important for the Vikings and what they want to do. But he might run three different types of routes and none of them are past eight yards. But it's fine because they have a receiving tight end that's valid in the Hawkinson. They have receiver looks they can get to, but he's a valid option in the passing attack. I mean, what the Rams are doing, it's been so cool watching them transition from 11 personnel to three tight ends and just do whatever they want. That's a great example to throw out there, too. It goes from one to three, not one to two.

12:46Don't you find that interesting? Because 12 isn't getting you what you want it to anymore. And so now it's either 13 or like a fullback and multiple tight ends or six offensive linemen. That's the only way to like make the button do what you want it to do because it's not doing it anymore. Otherwise, it's it was receiving was such a premium. And honestly, the defensive equivalent of this is pass rushers were such a premium. And now it's funny what it has become more valued is can you block as a receiver or a tight end and or as a running back to and pass protection, which most of them can do now or on defenses?

13:18Can you stop the run as well? OK, we can find pass rushers now. Don't get me wrong. It's really hard to find the best pass rushers, but the baseline has risen so much that now, you know, it's the money ball of it all. What is the thing that is out of vogue that we can find an advantage? It was blocking tight ends, and I think now more teams are realizing, oh, this is actually great. Watch the 49ers when Kittle came back. Of course, Kittle opens up so much, but they have Luke Farrell on the roster. And now they have two guys that they can legit run at the point of attack. So it's been a really cool thing.

13:50Like I know Jackson Hawes is like really is so important, but he is so indicative of what all these teams are doing. And I think it's just been really cool to watch the Bills transformation to this year. It's fun because like when I watch the Bears right now and you try to check the boxes of what a good offense is feel like and you watch Colson level and block. That's one of those where it's like, right? Like it's like this is this is the type of stuff you want to see from a good offense. And again, I do think it's a through line from a lot of the good ones that we've seen. All right. So we both had Jackson Hawes on our list, which is hilarious.

14:18Started batting lead off Jackson Haas. God, make sure he gets the at bats. I mean, we already hinted at a couple more. I mean, I actually had a lot of offensive ones now that I look at it. But I'll just even talk about the you just mentioned Colson Loveland. I'll talk about Ben Johnson, Joe Tooney and Dan Rauscher. The Bears run game, essentially. Darno Wright is one of mine.

14:43Anyone that was in the football three one yesterday, it was so great when we just OK, OK, let's talk about our short list, too. And we'd have like the exact same four or five guys. And I was like, come on, without talking to each other once about it. I got to talk about the Bears because just really just the Bears run game. I know Caleb gets so much of the headlines and I do think his play has improved. I have some stats if we do want to talk about it. But this is the most explosive offense in the NFL. No caveats, just the most explosive offense in the NFL is the Chicago Bears. There's no start point there.

15:13It's from week one to now. and that kind of shocked me but that's what ben johnson aims for it's an offensive philosophy i believe in is hunting for explosives and then the run game is your jab but their fourth and rushing success rate after the colts the bills the commanders and the bears and the bears are in fourth first explosive play rate first and explosive rush rate seventh explosive player or pass rate um 11th in epa per play this has been a borderline top 10 offense now they've gone against the second easiest schedule according to dba so that's the one caveat i was gonna throw out And guess what?

15:45Who they go against this week, the Giants, who have the 32nd ranked rushing DVOA defense. And then it gets a little more a little bit tougher after that. But this is just been this is what Ben Johnson believes in. And I do think that the early returns or what has grown, especially after the bye week, really since about week four. And you can see it. It's tangible. Now, the results have been perfect. We talked about the Ravens game a little bit, but the baseline stuff is get risen so much. and what they're trying to do is the harder stuff of offense and there's already early returns it's not like the 2021 2022 falcons conversations where it's like oh that's some cool stuff it's like no this is legit good stuff that's actually working and i see how they're trying to use caleb or how ben johnson's trying to use caleb more under center more play action more stuff working over the middle that's not just a one-man routes true high lows caleb's a lot better throwing outside and i think ben johnson knows that his numbers have boosted on the outside but seeing the inside side stuff happened just picture jared goff and the the lines offense that works with the run game that they're trying to go for so just i had to i bring it up because now the bears are winning some games but this offense has been encouraging to me uh yes going some weaker defenses but i do think the bones are getting made and now they're really adding the muscle and everything else the ligaments to this offense i i just i've been very very encouraged by what i'm seeing i totally agree from like a structural standpoint like the run game and what they're doing in the run game right now is so fun to watch and you i mean and benedit's made a difference too like them dropping him in after the buyout left tackle and you know he's still a question on in pass in pass in pass protection like that's going to be something they have to deal with for the rest of the season but what he's giving them in the run game i think you notice the difference like they now have like five plus run blockers when those guys are deployed in the right way and you feel that along like we just said with the tight ends and so that combined with you know understanding what all right these are the runs we want Swift on.

17:39These are the runs we want Menon Guy on. Let's get Swift in space. Let's let him do what he does well. And so I just think it's so well put together there. And I think Ben and Dan Rusher deserve a lot of credit for that. And my, why I wanted to mention Darnell Wright is like kind of an extension of that. And so when watching Darnell Wright essentially, so he missed the Raider game. So he's been back since the buy and you watch what Darnell Wright has done at right tackle for the bears over the last three or four weeks, he's got like three or four like like highlight plays as an offensive lineman every single week.

18:08And what's so interesting to me is that I was excited about Darnell right by the end of last year. You saw the flashes of like what he could eventually become. But with offensive, with all non-quarterbacks, I think we take these guys and we just think they are what they are, right? Like these are fixed assets. Like an offensive lineman is an offensive lineman. A receiver is a receiver. we spend so much time worrying about how circumstances dictate the pluses and minuses of quarterback play and we don't think enough about that for individual position players and so why I think Darnell Wright is such a fascinating kind of jumping off point for this season in general is that I think we've seen so many teams get different sorts of results from their offensive lines because of the situations those guys are being put in some of those are structural, right?

18:55Some of those are, we're going to put a ton of base defense on the field. We're going to use a ton of play action, that kind of stuff that that's Seattle, right? Like we're going to make sure that you're in base. We're going to use a ton of play action. We're going to have very few true pass sets. We're going to allow the offensive lines left to be easier. That's one version of it. I think the Colts have done that. I think the Patriots have done that. And you've seen the results from that, but it can extend to like individual offensive linemen. like Darnell Wright is being weaponized in the Bears offense in a way that very few tackles are and I know this is a lofty comparison but like when you watch him in that 58 this year like there are like Penny Sewell flashes from what Penny Sewell has looked like over the last few years with Ben Johnson that only happens because the offensive staff understands how to weaponize him properly and so I just think so often whether it's offensive lineman individually or offensive linemen as a unit, we just don't think about how much their play can change because of who the people in charge are.

19:53And I think that Darnell Wright is a very, very good example of that individually this year. He's a great example. Even as a prospect, he got narratively scouted in the sense that I mean like, oh, you're coming from the Tennessee offense that passes all the time and you're big and like this. Oh, okay. All right. I know exactly what you are. But it was the Tennessee offense was a bunch of down blocks and physical at you, which makes sense. I mean, look at Darnell Ray. He's gigantic. But that makes sense. And then if you watch this Bears offense right now, so everything that you're saying is, okay, get him out in space.

20:27Get him on screens. Get him down blocking. I tweeted it. Other people have tweeted it. The block he had on that fourth and one against the Bengals. It's one of the best blocks of the entire year. He truly moves Shamar Stewart four gaps over. And puts him in the ground. Four gaps over and puts him in the ground. And bowling pins his own teammate and another guy and another Bengals defender. Like it's a true highlight reel block with Roman Duns, they digging out the safety. So I do have to give him a shout out as well. But no, that is that's a great, great, great, great point. And I think. I would even say this defensively, some guys, this what happens as well, where guys are like, well, this is our coverage.

21:04I mean, what's going on with like the Cowboys or something of that sort? It's like or really actually maybe the best example, the Jets defense. Aaron Glenn goes there and goes, oh, yeah, I'm just going to run my stuff or man coverage and quarters on first and second down. All right. Well, maybe you guys aren't made out to be man press defenders for 30 snaps a game like you. Sometimes it's just the personnel just doesn't match. And you hope these coaches figure that out quicker than later, sooner than later. But some don't. And I think Darnell Wright's a great example of that. It's just I mean, just watching the whole run, their offensive line work right now.

21:37it's just like you can tell they're that right side with him and jonah jackson that's a lot of beef my friend yes a lot and it makes and even like drew dolman makes it fits better that's sorry we can go on and on with this is sometimes guys are oh we're a zone team so let's get a bunch of run scrappy run fast quick hitting guys you don't want to drop back with a bunch of drew dolman's you know over and over but if you insulate him with jonah jackson boom Joe thing. I mean, it's it's the years and years and years. The Eagles put in 330 pound guards next to Jason Kelsey is a way to kind of account for that.

22:12It's what my dad did with the Vikings. They Jeff Christie, who's like a former fullback as well from Pitt, 285 pounds. Then they have Dave Dixon, who's 350 pounds. And it was Randall McDaniel and then other guys. So it was like, it's the thing is. And also, that's another thing, too. I've been thinking about this with pass rushers and offensive line. Everyone wants two tackles or you want two edge rushers. I really think now it's edge rusher and a d tackle it's a tackle and a guard you want one you those you want one of each as your star guys because of how the pockets are getting created now and all the defensive movement that's happening if you have two edge guys i actually think that's easier to game plan against same with two good tackles and maybe a weak interior line so this is this is kind of an offshoot idea but it's something it's a team building thought though that's important to keep in mind that i've really been kind of focusing on but i do think that the bears are a good example all right darn all right joe tooney boom i got two star star quality guys now and i think the pockets i mean sorry my last little caleb stat here i told you i always go long there's sacred caleb right caleb williams is saccharine has gone from 10.8 to 5.2 the pressure sacks gone from 28.2 to 13.6 that's some of his decision making but that's also the offensive line and the comfort everybody has in this offense right now yeah we'll see what happens with the quarterback right like i think that there's still gaps he needs to fill in there's still elements of his game that are frustrating.

23:27But for the first time in a very long time, I have a lot of confidence that he's being put in a position where he has a chance, right? Like it's, it's on him to figure it out because every aspect of what is being put in place right now is giving him a real chance to get where he needs to get to. And I can't tell you when I've ever felt that way in my life. You mean when Hackett was there, you know, we were feeling that what's his name getsy when getsy was there sorry for a different packers assistant i truly don't know if i've ever felt that way and so that is a very strange but welcome feeling in my life over the past nine weeks or so all right so i had darn all right as my second one so though with two couple bears tinge one who's your third one all right mine is uh i'll go i'll go with the defensive player finally i'll go tell noah who funga for the broncos and really just a way to talk about the broncos defense uh but i could have gotten nick benito jonathan cooper zach allen john franklin myers dj jones malcolm roach ps2 riley moss vance joseph i could just go on and on with this defense um but who funga has been one of the best free agent additions full stop just that that no caveats just one of the best free agent signings this entire offseason which i was hopeful for because I've been a fan of his game.

24:44He was just bad, had the injury, came back from that with the 49ers. 49ers had to let him go. They had decisions to make. But he fits this defense perfectly from a mindset, that attacking first mindset, the awareness that Hufanga plays with. He's one of the smartest defenders in the NFL, and I think that kind of gets underrated with him. He's a former quarterback. I think that's another thing. It's like the classic John Lynch, former quarterback to headhunting safety pipeline. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That old chestnut. Yeah, we see a lot of those. See, the Vikings, I want Brian Russell was another one that I could throw in there.

25:17But yeah, it's a weird kind of transition for some of these guys. But this defense, first and success rate, first and yards per play, first and EP per play, fourth and DVOA, first and sack rate, first and third down defense, first and red zone defense. You know, they're battling with the Texans, Seahawks, a couple other teams as the best defense. But it's like, all right, top four. I'm pretty, you know, I'll put it that way. Isn't it funny that so rarely does that happen? Where we, before the season, we're like, these are going to be the best defenses. And then we got into the season and like, those are the best defenses.

25:45Like if I had to pick three coming into the season and Derek and I did this a lot this offseason where it's hard to predict the best one. And so it's like, I think X defense has a chance to be the best defense in the league. And we picked like the group we would say that about the Seahawks, the Broncos and the Texans are the three at the top of that list. And they have been three of, if not the best defenses, then three of the best defenses in the league. It doesn't always happen that way, but it has happened this year. I'm looking at my list and I had the Eagles in my top four as well. So three of the top four, basically, ended up being like this.

26:16And we'll watch one of the Eagles in the second half. We'll see. Yeah, exactly. It was still a lot of ball to be played. That's a great point, though, as far as I mean, but they had so much carryover as far as personnel, play caller. How they win is not one of those where it's like, well, you rode that high wire for that season. We'll see if it craps out this year. It's been really cool to see. It's not been all perfect. I do think there's ways you can run on this Broncos defense. But I think what's so cool with Hufanga is watching him. They're so downhill with everything. They're just so fast and attacking.

26:46Everybody's attacking in this defense and seeing Hufanga go like, all right, this play is happening. This play, are you doing that? Oh, I'm going to go soft this flat route and just happen so quick. He's one of the most fun players to watch on film. He kind of epitomizes this defense, even being the newest member of it. And so I just wanted to give him and this defense a total shout out. So the sawing off stuff in the flat. And I know there's a couple of really nice moments from him as a blitzer so far this year. What other layers do you think he has added to the defense that they might not have had last year because he wasn't there?

27:17Oh, being a safety was some of the stuff, too. Because when you're playing that much man coverage, stuff can pop. You know, hey, a guy doesn't tackle, bring down. So being around the ball. So it's just another body around the ball. They like to create islands for everybody, whether it's man coverage, whether it's blitzing, because they'll rush five. Somebody has to win a one on one. They're betting that they're always going to win a one-on-one. What if you don't? Well, there's Safaga. So that's another aspect, too. It's not just that he's at the line of scrimmage like Jamal Adams or something like that.

27:44It's that he's everywhere. He is a typical box safety, but you've got to remember in the 49ers world, he was a quarter safety that had to play downhill. So it was actually an easier transition than maybe I even thought for him. I thought it was like, oh, he's a good player. He'll figure it out. But it's just been, boom, hit the ground running once he's been out there. So I would say being an actual safety has helped. but on top of the attacking stuff and everything. All right, we're going to take one quick break here, and then we're going to come back and talk about another safety, kind of.

28:14All right, my next one here is Kyle Hamilton. And listen, we've talked so much about Kyle Hamilton over the last few years, but what is happening with the Ravens defense right now, I think is fascinating on a couple different levels. I did a video about it that's going to come out later this week, and just like it's kind of a simple idea, but it's like Kyle Hamilton as Winston Wolf. Like that's kind of what's happening right now where he's just like the fixer for the Ravens defense. So like whenever you have a problem, like we're calling Kyle Hamilton. So last year, the Ravens want to use Kyle Hamilton in the nickel because Kyle Hamilton is a weapon, right?

28:51Like if you're not using him in the nickel, you're not realizing all of the benefits he can give you as a team. But the way that the Ravens defense was playing over the first half of last season, they were giving up more explosive passes than any team in the NFL. And so they think, all right, we're going to move them to safety. Like, this is what we have to do based on our personnel. And last year, they still had Brandon Stevens. They could play Marwin Humphrey in the nickel, and safety was the area where they were weakest. So they go from allowing the most explosive passes on a rate basis in the first 10 weeks of the season last year to the least.

29:20Not like the most to the middle of the pack, the most to the least after they move Kyle Hamilton to deep safety. So coming into this year, the thought was, we're going to draft Malachi Starks in the first round. We still have our Darius Washington. So by doing that, we are able to weaponize Kyle Hamilton again. Two weeks after the draft happens, our Darius Washington tears his Achilles. So now we're at a place where Kyle Hamilton has to play deep safety based on the rest of our personnel. Well, you watch the Ravens over the first four or five weeks of the season and their injuries are part of it.

29:50But you watch the defense and it's like there's just something missing here, right? Like the second outside corner spot's kind of a weakness and the front seven's not playing the way that you want to. And so you're looking at it and you're saying, all right, their biggest weakness is outside corner. If you just look at it straight personnel wise, because she'll be was in Jaya Alexander not giving you what you want. And then they trade for a safety. Well, why can you do that? Because with Kyle Hamilton, your needs are fungible because he can do whatever. So they trade for a low. He Gilman Kyle Hamilton immediately moves back full time to nickel.

30:22Marlon Humphrey pops outside and you still have Nate Wiggins playing really well. So with one safety trade, you solve three positions because Kyle Hamilton can play for you. And then you watch him over the last couple of weeks. He's a maniac. Like what he was doing in the Bears game and what he's doing in the Dolphins game. He's setting the edge against the run. He's making plays as a blitzer. He's all over the place. He's covering Devon Achan one-on-one on fades from the slot. There is no one like him. And so the fact that the Ravens can just use this one person to solve whatever ails their defense in a given season is insane.

31:01But that's who he is. And so I think there are other things I want to dig into as well. But that's kind of the first thought is like this guy. I almost mentioned him yesterday, but didn't want to spoil it. Like he won't be defensive player of the year or anything like that because of the stats and just how we give out that award. But when you look at the most load bearing defensive players in the NFL, he's in the top five. Like, I think it's undeniable. It's like almost you wish there was an all defense team version. I know there's pro balls and all pros, but like in basketball, just the top five defenders in any position.

31:32You know what I mean? It doesn't matter position label. Just who are the top five defenders? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. He's one of them. I'm totally with you. I did a segment on Hamilton last week on NFL Network, and this was kind of the crux of it all, was moving since week six. I'm sorry. Weeks one through four, he aligned as a deep safety 71 % of the time, nearly 72 percent since week six he's aligned there 0.9 percent so one percent of the time he's been a deep safety truly been in the slot in the box and the ravens went from the worst rushing success rate worst run defense in terms of rushing success rate and honestly it was historically bad it was i think it was uh going on next gen stats they go back 2016 it was the worst rushing defense over the first month of the season and they're a database and then since week six like you said Now there's six in rushing success rate.

32:20They're ninth overall in success rate. I mean, they went from allowing shoot almost like six yards a run. It felt like, and now they're allowing less than four yards a run. And it's just Hamilton, his awareness, one of the smartest players in the NFL, the size he has to, and just that functional athleticism. It's like, okay, now it's truly, I know everyone wants to just say like, everybody's a hybrid or scheme independent or whatever you want to say. He's a tweener in a good way where it's just like, you need those. And that's the next, that's the next, the other thing I wanted to mention is that like, if you, we talked a little bit about this yesterday as a defense, what are you doing to prevent teams from manipulating you?

33:01How can you make sure that the game is not being dictated to you? I think structurally right now, the best defense in the NFL in terms of the way that it is built is the Seattle Seahawks. the Seattle Seahawks this year traded up in the second round for a player to do one specific thing their goal in drafting Nick Emanwari was to put him in the slot and never have to think about personnel again no matter what you do we're going to play nickel to whatever you do you line up as many tight ends and fullbacks and bullshit as you want to we're going to stay in the same 11 because we feel good about that and Seattle this year a non inside the 10 plays has been a nickel 90 % of the time.

33:42And I'll be really curious with Hamilton now down there, do the Ravens play any more base defense? They didn't against the Dolphins, which that's a Dolphins thing. Poor Dolphins. All these teams are trying to find ways to get base defense on the field. The Dolphins run so much 21 personnel and have over the last few years, and teams just stopped. They were like, ah, we don't. We don't need to worry about this. It's fun that you guys want to do this. We're not going to give you an extra linebacker. And so the dolphins were like, fine, you won't do it to that. I'll put six offensive linemen on the field.

34:15And the Ravens were like, yeah, we don't care. We're still going to play nickel to your jumbo. And it's just Mike McDaniel's trying so hard. And because of the way the offense is built, he just can't get there. And so I wonder, was that all nickel all the time thing from the Ravens? Is that a dolphins thing? Or is that something they feel like they can do for the rest of the year? I do think we'll see them right up there with the Seahawks when it comes to nickel percentages to any personnel grouping. And if you can play like that, it gives you such an advantage. And Hamilton is the reason you can play like that because he's six, four, two 20.

34:49He's as big as a linebacker. So your run defense doesn't struggle or get hampered with him in that spot. And so I think more and more teams finding that guy, Hamilton, Nick Emanwari is that Cooper Dejean, who is not going to play as much slot now with Michael McCarter there. But like that was why the Eagles could play nickel to everything last year. Like those types of guys are just skeleton key players right now based on what offenses are trying to do to manipulate defenses in the NFL. You know what's so funny is the team that in my head lived in nickel for years and years, the Bills are the ones shifting away from it.

35:23They're playing more base this year than ever. So weird. It's like, and I was like, oh, it's because Teron Johnson's hurt. I'm like, no, he's, he's playing in this game. This is just what they want to do. And but speaking why I think about that, too, as you mentioned, 220, the Bills linebackers are like 215. Like Kyle Hamilton is like bigger than the Bills base linebackers. And no, but all this discussion, too, is like you mentioned that teams are going to nickel to 21. This is why they can. It's because now these slot guys are 220. They're the size of somebody. They're not that much smaller than linebackers.

35:52Or I'm sorry, fullbacks and every tight ends. It's just yeah, it's just the hybridization. The everybody's flattening as far as position labels like they're just going out of the way. It's just the spots you can fill. And I've kind of also said this too about when I'm scouting guys for the draft is to really emphasize if the guy is a corner slash slot or a safety slash slot. Because that is so – I mean, honestly, in a weakling system kind of thing, but it's just like offensive line. Is he a center and a guard or is he a guard and a tackle? Or is he just a tackle? You know, like same exact thing for DBs.

36:24Is he an interior guy or is he outside? You mentioned Hamilton. That's another thing about why Marlon Humphrey is so cool. He can play the slot or outside. And he's good at both. So, like, I mean, it's just really cool how they're able to get to that. And I don't know what to make of the Ravens right now, but it's still wide open for them. I still don't know either. I mean, it's one of those where, like, my thought is, like, and I just think, obviously, Lamar didn't play in that game. So, the Lamar offense, I don't know what to make of it. But the fact that they were able to give the Bears such a hard time, based on how well the Bears have been playing against bad defenses out of the bye, that's just something where it's like okay like that's a signal to me like you can beat up on the dolphins but that bears game i don't think we should just write it off of like oh it's the bears like they're supposed to do that the bears offense is playing well enough that that is a notable performance from the defense we'll see what the lamar offense does against a real opponent like that we're still waiting on that one absolutely when they're not playing the dolphins defense who are who are waving white flags on every snap of the ball it's just waving them shocking that constructing a cornerback room that you signed in august isn't going to go a long way over the course of the season it's not even fun to say i told you so with them like you know i mean it's just they're one of those teams where i derive no pleasure from it none none it's just one of those where i was like yeah does anyone that looked at this realize what was about to happen it's it was even worse than i was expecting which actually also speaks to what the falcons are turning into right now but that that's a whole another conversation actually this whole whole thing reminds me of too this i mean this whole personnel usage and everything was um a person i know that works with tom brady now he's kind of like helps out with his you know the commentating stuff brady had a whole rant apparently in a meeting one time about how it took him years to get defenses back to base because they were getting so annoyed that everyone was going to nickel to everything and they just want to get the base to throw and so they're like all right 12 personnel.

38:18No, you guys are going nickel. Jakob Johnson, fullback. OK, OK. Now you guys are OK. OK. Now we got another linebacker on the field. So they became back a fullback team and back to a tight end team because they're just trying to get freaking three linebackers on the field and four DBs. I just think that's the struggle this year. Like that, that is the struggle in the NFL. Like that is the push and the pull and figuring out what's going to get it for you. It brings us back to the Jackson Hawes point. Like it's all connected. And so I think that's the fun part about this. All right, so that's three each for both of us.

38:47Who is your fourth one? Your fourth guy that in your mind has shaped how the NFL season has played out to this point? So it's not really a guy. It was more of a figureheads. And so I don't know how to like even say I'll say Chris Shula is the way to do it. He might he won assistant coach for me at the midway point. So let's act like I said, Clint Kubiak. So it's not like I'm cheating here. But really, it's more how I want to talk about the important people for the Rams have really shaped the NFL this year. The Sean McVeigh's, the Chris Shula's, the Matthew Stafford's. I was trying to find some hipster guy in there.

39:19Maybe Colby Parkinson. Okay, maybe that's the guy that I want to talk about here. Byron Young, I guess. You know, we talked about him a little bit yesterday. But it's just the offense, defense, QB. It's all cooking. I think they are on the forefront of whatever is going on in the league. I know this is something you and I talked about this summer. Again, I'm a hack. I wrote about it, podcasted about it. Is that under center dropbacks for the offense. Okay, so I know I just mentioned Chris Shula. I want to talk about the whole Rams right now. Under center dropbacks. Boom. we can, we're going old school with our passing game and guess what?

39:47More teams are doing it. And it's also, the results have been good out of those looks as well. It's so awesome to watch. It's hilarious. My, my favorite play, my favorite under center drop back of the season so far is Seattle on Sunday night against Washington, the touchdown to Elijah. There's no play fake on the play and the defense reacts like there is a play fake because of what their expectations are when you are under center. And so watching the impact of it, even if you kind of understand why it should work that way, has been incredible. Like it is you are playing with like human nature and expectations in a way that is incredibly cool to watch.

40:25It's everything we're talking about right now. It's the it's tendency breaking. It's and how I've kind of framed it is you're adding scissors back to rock, paper, scissors. And it's like because if I'm under center, all right, I know it's either going to be a run or a play action. If I'm a defender. All right. It's rock or paper. now I've turned one out of three into a 50 50 battle watch a baseball game and hear baseball players talk about well he only has two pitches oh now he has three pitches oh and I have to honor okay this is a lot harder they have four it goes even more and more but now if you add just just a sprinkling I'm just talking about this is like I it was one or two a game now it's more like three or four a game where it's just it's what I learned as a drop back you know passing game and it's kind of cool to see from a teach point because now the timing makes sense from the footwork you know gun there's been kind of a hybridization of what people do out of the gun and how they throw and on the timing of everything but when you watch the pass play from under center you're like oh wow these route depths make sense to the drop back it's really not it's really refreshing almost just just to watch um but just seeing all these classic concepts come back and tying in with the run game tying in with the pass game and it's funny just that the old stuff is the new stuff now but like you said it's just you're making defenses honor it and talking about personnel that's a tendency and and this is what the rams sean mcveigh realizes that's why he always wanted to be 11 personnel with girly on the field every single snap was i'm not giving the the defense any indication of what i'm doing everything looks the same it's everything is tendency you have no tendencies on us every little thing that you look at are all the opponent scouting doesn't matter against us and you guys have to guess about what we're about to do what we've been saying kind of this whole show if you can say nickel the same nickel every time on defense same thing for the offense oh they're a nickel again same person is they do they have a certain line nope same linebacker in there do they have a certain front in there nope same edge and d tackles it's just you're not giving them anything to pull at any thread to pull at so this is just another version of that where you're making them honor and then defensively chris shula they're in so much dime that again that it's a defense i i don't go oh they're in dime here comes a blitz look uh oh they're in dime here comes this front they do all their shit out of dime so it's just again it's Just kind of they're always on the forefront of doing something.

42:37This brings us back to one of our OG conversations on Brandon Staley. That Sean McVay knows how to ID these defensive coaches that are ones that make it the hardest on offenses. And that's what Shula has been doing on defense because it's the same body types all over the place. And it's been really cool to watch this Rams team this year. So I'm curious what you think about this. The Rams have been running more dime for the last two years than any defense in the NFL. They do a ton of it. They're clearly leaning into it. I think the McCreary thing is kind of like a declaration of intent about making like we're going to do even more of this than you're seeing us doing.

43:08The game that the Bills just played against the Chiefs on Sunday night or on Sunday. Do you think that is maybe like a big bang sort of moment about the usage of dime personnel in the NFL in a more widespread way? Like two years from now, do you think we'll look back in that game that the Bills played against the Chiefs on Sunday and say that was the moment when the light bulb turned on and the NFL got wise to the fact that maybe dime is the future? maybe because it's just it's just the next step of what we've been saying with big nickel all right we got all these safeties we can grab all right let's get one on the box now you know it's just i think i just think about like how unpredictable they felt like that like because with mahomes specifically he he does he's been doing such a good job of being able to identify pre-snap what you're going to do and deciding before the ball's even snapped i'm gonna go here in half a second there's nothing you can do about it and the bills because of having as many past defense bodies on the field as they did and being able to disguise things in the way that they did, they took that away from him.

44:07And so maybe it's, maybe it's not going to be like a big thing. Maybe it's just like a chief specific thing, but I just hearing you talk about the Rams and then having that game be fresh in my mind. It's like, maybe, maybe there's something here. Like maybe there's like a kernel of something here to kind of think about as we move forward. Well, there's two very good defensive coordinators in LA right now. And you know, know who else runs a lot of dime jesse mentor and the chargers so i i would say jesse mentor is a pretty damn good coach and the fact that he wants to lean into that even though they have tangible linebackers they can play i i was even thinking the vikings have been funky with their personality because some injuries and stuff like that but i was breaking down a play and the the kind of where metellus really helps slow down offenses is what are how are the vikings using metellus on this play all right he's lined up over the tight end usually if a 44 is lined up over a tight end kind of what i'm getting here you know probably a certain cover but is he a blitzer is he a zone is he a flat defender here is he you know it's just playing with that so what you're speaking to again it takes away ways i can indicate what the defense is doing if i have six dbs any of them can blitz any of them can do anything it just takes away going like who as a protection wise who's the likely blitzer or the likely pass rusher because that's how you declare it on offense and it's just taking away a card that they can play so again there's great theorizing this with you because i do see more teams probably doing it and just the body types they're coming through in college and stuff that are maybe used to playing these light or light bodies and if we have fewer linebackers that we feel good about and it does feel like that's happening right that there are just fewer linebackers you feel good about your coverage this draft though thank god oh my god no no there's like four potential first round linebackers this draft.

45:48So yeah, the amount of like terrible linebacker play in the NFL right now, it's, it's an epidemic. I mean, it is so, so bad. And so maybe that is one of the reasons is that, and the Rams are obviously the perfect example of this. The Rams don't have, it's easy for the Rams to play nine because they've never invested in a linebacker one time. So I just, it's just something to think about like that game. Maybe I'm overstating it. Maybe it's just the most recent thing I watched, but that was just one of those games where it's like, It feels like this matters in maybe a bigger picture way. And I don't even know if it's just dime they do, but even the Cardinals defense does some cool stuff.

46:21And even there, their stuff is they have so many hybrid bodies up front too. So it's like, all right, Zayvon Collins, could any snap be an off-ball linebacker, be an edge rusher, be an interior rusher, be in coverage, do any of those. And so, okay, but they have personnel groupings where it's one defensive lineman, five linebackers, and five DBs as an offense. All right, who's the most likely rusher of like five linebackers. Slide it, slide it. You know, so again, you're just taking away a card an offense can play. So great theorizing this with you because it's kind of the same stuff I've kind of been noticing.

46:52It was just making it a little harder on everybody. Rollis is so unhinged, man. He is. He's like, he's on a whole different level. It's just like he's not scheme weirdo. He is like he's the best. It's true. It's truly knuckleball. It's the knuckleball defense. Like it's yeah. His brother, Mike, his name was Madcap Moss. uh his original name was Riddick Moss Moss because he's a Vikings fan or any Moss and I I was like I think your brother's the Matt Cap defense coordinator because he's out of his f***ing mind it is really funny and we've talked about it a lot over the course of the offseason because I was fascinated by what they would do as they got better players and whether they would still be as funky and they're still pretty funky and it's just in the irony is that people used to shit on Gannon for being so simple and that he hires a defensive coordinator that is just like an absolute insane sane person.

47:39And I, they have a great relationship, like truly like one that is built on like very mutual respect. And I think there's a very healthy, creative tension between them and talking to, talking to each of them about the other one is, it gives a very cool thing, but just that like professional partnership between those two guys is kind of like odd couple-y, but they tend to make it work on that side of the ball, which I find very funny. Yeah. I know their personalities are wildly different now that they got talking to both all right we're gonna take one more quick break and then come back with a couple more guys all right so you had chris shula is yours i'm gonna do a coach kind of two coaches for my next one here we talked a lot about josh mcdaniels yesterday on the half season award show i think he could easily be the assistant coach of the year to me he's in the conversation for it it reminds me a little bit i've made this comparison a decent amount this year it reminds me a little bit of like watching the broncos offense last year where it's nothing crazy, right?

48:34It's not all these like bells and whistles and motions. And like, I've said this before. Like if I was explaining to a layman why the Dolphins offense two years ago was cool, it would be very easy to do. I think it's harder to do that with offenses like last year's Broncos or like this year's Patriots. But why I wanted to mention McDaniels and then the other guy was Clayton Adams is because - I figured you would bring him up, so I didn't bring him up. So good. Here's the reason that I'm bucketing those two guys together. And it's because, again, I think sometimes as members of the internet football hipster community, we can put a lot of increased emphasis on the shit we think is cool.

49:14Right. Like that's cool. And so that's what we want to like talk about and think about. The Patriots offense and the Cowboys offense, there's some interesting things they're doing, but it's not good in a loud way. It is very like rooted in like fundamental ideas. And the word I would use to describe both of these offenses and why I think both of them have been very good this year and very compelling to watch is cohesion. Right. But when you watch both of these offenses, a lot of the stuff is fundamental and that's simple. Simple is a word that has negative connotations, but it's familiar. Right.

49:49A lot of the stuff is familiar, but it's all tied together in a way that makes perfect sense. The runs and the play actions are tied together. The personnel groupings are tied together in a way that makes sense. And when you watch those offenses, there's a smoothness to it in the way that it all runs because it feels so cohesive. And I think those types of offenses, we don't talk or think about enough because it's not as showy, but those are the types of offenses often. Why is that team better than we thought they were going to be? Oh, because it all makes sense. And that's not that like, it's not earth shattering to say that.

50:22But I think those two offenses this year specifically have been like a jarring reminder of that idea. And that's why I wanted to mention both of them. Yes, the soundness of it all. Like, again, it's I think McDaniels is the best example. Even when he got hired, people were asking me like, oh, is this a great fit for Drake May? I was like, well, this offense will be sound, so it won't be frustrating. Like, so I won't watch it and go like, oh, why are they doing that stupid play? Like, why are they doing that concept that doesn't have an answer? Or like, why are they running that gadget play into a blitz?

50:52And when you watch them, there's not a lot of plays with that. It's more, you know, they just lose. You know, a guy loses a one-on-one or something of that sort. Obviously, you need a quarterback to operate to lift up that ceiling, I should say. But it's a floor-raising kind of schemes. And it's schemes that I believe in as well. It's very familiar to me from what my dad did and also what we did at Wisconsin. But not just because they use fullbacks, not just because they use tight ends and everything. but just even just run game wise it's always a hat on a hat there's never a lot of unblocked guys which zone running teams will have unblocked guys just by definition and if you really lean into it that can get ugly if you don't you know really channel it watch the texans against the seahawks i know not a lot of people wanted to watch that but watch that short yardage sequence that they had they had a third and one then fourth and one they got stuffed two times in a row first off should not be running with the worst offense one of the worst offensive lines in the league against one of the best defensive lines in the league.

51:47That's just not, that's not even theory. That's just math. But it's just like watching them, the run plays they ran, they are unsound. It's not that, oh, it's not a run play that doesn't exist. It's just that it's impossible to block against the defensive fronts that they were going against. I drew lines trying to figure it out and trying to give, I would try to give leeway to the coaches and go like, well, they probably didn't design it this way. It was probably just someone botching. And I'm watching, I'm like, you literally can't block these plays. like those plays are dead on arrival and they're two of the biggest plays of the game and you're running into that to me that's like that's why i'm like all right texans i don't care how much better they get it's like i'm already i'm already like they're already like behind the eight ball for me like i'm just like all right i'm ready to knock you into the pocket and never deal with you guys again but just with these offenses yeah they're not the sexiest thing they don't have the craziest motion it's a very everything's traditional that's the word i always kind of use yeah traditional is a good word it's it's a traditional nfl offense there's you know it's these these offenses that just get distilled over years and years on the concepts that work against all defensive fronts defensive coverages so i'm with you i'm glad you robbed clayton adams because again uh honestly him losing or going from the cardinals to the cowboys was one of my biggest kind of misses as a predictor this year was i didn't not get it enough for the cardinals offense and i didn't boost the cowboys offense enough because of what he he provides and again some of those concepts that he does even run game wise, it's just adding just a little flourish to traditional like split zone.

53:15All right, let's just have the tight end motion and motion back real quick. Oh, wow, that's crazy. But if I drew it up on a, it's just the exact same drawing I drew up on a play 15 years ago. But again, I'm with you. I really like what these two are doing. So I'm glad you mentioned both of them, the soundness of both offenses. Yeah, it's just, again, it's just something that I need to remind myself of every once in a while, where it's like these things that maybe don't seem sexy and exciting in real time are actually the right choice, right? Like there is like a floor raising is a good way to put it.

53:43Like soundness, just like a certain reliability to offenses that we take for granted at times. And I think sometimes we should not take them for granted. Especially when you have a quarterback. That's the thing. It's like you don't need to do the bells and whistles when you have a quarterback. All I've said about the Cowboys this year, all they've done is they've used like a league average rate of all of the things that make life easier on the quarterback and they're playing like ridiculously good football. It's not an overwhelming ask. It's like, I think it's very reasonable what I've been asking for and that's all they're doing.

54:16And on top of it, like even the Pickens edition, it was more like Pickens has been great and everything, but even just that type of player, like Dak has needed that since Gallup has been, you know, Gallup went out to pasture. Like it's been, he's needed that type of player. And then they find, yes, he's a good player on top of it they just need an average x it's like help out this offense so it's like just these not jail and no not jail and tolbert no not brandon cooks we didn't necessarily need george pickens we just needed not jail and tolbert and you're gonna see some of the results and that's what they've done you were talking about the ravens 32nd to first like they just need to go 32nd to 18th but going to top 10 is pretty nice as well you know but no it's just when you have a dude at quarterback that can do a lot of the hard things make the easy things easy and and i think that's been, Josh McDaniels does deserve credit.

55:02We both gave Drake May kind of the mid-season MVP and it's just one of those when I'm watching Drake May, he lifts the ceiling, but now the ecosystem lifts the floor. So it's, yeah, I'm right there with you. My last one, of course, I have a couple options and of course it's a couple offensive line coaches. So I almost said Josh Swett and Zayvon Collins, but it's not like their defense is now up there, but it's like, it hasn't told the story of the season. They don't even have a fricking winning record. By the end of the year, I'll be curious how we're talking about the Cardinals defense. I think that's something that second half of the season, now that they're healthy again, that's one where I'm filing that away.

55:36Yeah, the DBs are great. I know, I know. So we're on the same wavelength of that. So a guy that I gave flowers to yesterday, I made him on my short list for assistant coach of the year. So far, mid-season point is Tony Sperano Jr., offensive line coach for the Colts. I don't know if I have to list off anything, but the Colts run game is pretty good. If you watch this Colts team this year, top two run game. any way you shake it uh very and talking about soundness and that's what offensive line coaches provide and that's what he's provided it's you know it's not they do some cool stuff with formations and some formation or and some motion stuff but you know you got to remember steikens the north turner guy very traditional and then you got tony spiron jr literally tony spirono's son very traditional how they do things the run game is very traditional but they never run into bad boxes they never go into bad looks and then they got a superstar running back that just takes it over the top.

56:29So same discussion we're talking about with like four raising coordinators and everything for the quarterback, same thing with the running back and same thing with the offensive line. They're going to do the stuff that puts it over the top. But I, I, I've been, the Colts have been so much fun to watch every week this year. I gladly ate crow on them like two weeks into the season. I'm like, yeah, this is a good offense. It was instantaneous. It was like one of those things where it's just like, yep, nah, we're good. No, we're all set. Yep. Yep. We're good. This is a top 10 offense done. And then it's always been like top 10 historical offense.

56:56But no, I think Sperano Jr. has been a one of these. I had no opinion on him going into this year. Put it that way. And now I watch this Colts team and I'm like, oh, that's a that's good run stuff. Oh, OK. I see what you I saw while you motion that guy to get this look. OK, that makes sense to me what you're doing. And even pass protection wise. Have you seen many games where Daniel Jones? I know the Steelers game just happened, but if you just watch the whole game, it wasn't as bad as it maybe seems. Turnovers suck. Who knew? But just watching. Do you think Daniel Jones has ever been just like?

57:25it's because on third and long they got a great protection plan on play action they got a great protection plan and that's the offensive line coach and they're that's what they put their fingers in every single week and that's how they make their impact in every week and so yeah the proof is in the pudding of course with the results but i think the the process of sperano jr and this colts entire team our offense has been really really cool to watch we've talked about this a lot, but just this idea of the value, like the very tangible value of one of these difference making offensive line coaches.

57:56And I think the there, we, we know who the guys are, right? Like think about what Jeff Stotland has done. You think about what you have a trophy right next to Rocky that it's unbelievable. Like what it does for your organization. And I think Hank Fraley has become one of those guys, right? Like you just look at what the offensive line, it just, it's like this, it's like a machine. Like you go into it and like you, you walk out transformed into like a workable NFL offensive lineman. Like that's what the lions have in their building now because Hank Fraley exists. And when you have one of those, we, there are a lot of intangible benefits to it, but they're also like very real financial benefits to it.

58:31And like the Colts are the perfect example of this to me. Okay. So right now, Ryan Kelly is making like$10 million a year from the Vikings. Tanner Bornolini is on a$1.2 million cap hit this year. Will fries is making$17 million a year, 17 and a half from the Vikings. Matt Gonsalves is making about a million bucks a year at right guard this off season. I would not be surprised if they moved on from Braden Smith, who's going to be a free agent. They drafted Jalen Travis in the fourth round this year. And at this point, are you betting against their ability to turn Jalen Travis into a starting caliber offensive lineman.

59:06So when Jay Braden Smith gets$20 million a year this off season, which he probably will because right tackles as good as Braden Smith don't usually hit free agency. We're going to be in a place where because of the offensive line ecosystem created in Indianapolis, they're saving$40 million in value that they can use on other players because of the development pipeline that they have created. That's crazy. It's, it's, it's not just like, Oh, offensive, offensive system hack. It's like a franchise hack. It's just, I I've been fascinated with kind of the baseball three point, maybe because the Mariners are relevant again.

59:44So now I'm all into baseball again. Uh, it's, it's, it's the last time we've done a pod together. They're way more relevant. Uh, no, but it's just, they, I like watching now it's like, well, if everybody's into money ball and everybody's an on-base percentage and every other stuff that came up. All right. What are the edges? Oh, player development is the edge. Look who those San Francisco giants just hired. They hired a college coach has no professional experience. And I know who knows what happens there, but that's been fascinating to me. It's kind of like more things change more. They stay the same, but you need your players need to get better in order for you to succeed as a team.

1:00:18Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we need our fourth round pick to actually be something and not just being an idea. Like, why don't you get better? Poke a stick at them. Why aren't you getting better? And like, honestly, one of the biggest hacks you can have is an offensive line coach that has a ceiling on how high he wants to rise up the ranks. You need Dante Skarniecki. You know, we just mentioned Stalin. Stalin doesn't give a shit about being an offensive coordinator. He'll be there making whatever he makes forever. That was an issue with my dad. He cared too much about that. So Howard Mudd, another one from the Colts back in the day.

1:00:47But if you get a guy that actually you can have this infrastructure, what the Bucs are doing right now, keeping the – Carberry. Kevin Carberry. Yeah. He's phenomenal too. They just had injuries. But that's a hack as well. Like the Rams with McVay has had a couple of guys, but he always wants a guy that's a true Ryan Wendell is there now. And I think they really like Ryan Wendell there. Yes. And Clayton Adams. I mean, I think Clayton Adams might be going to head coaching shot, too, if he if he really wants it. I think he actually deserves it. I don't know how he is as an interview, but coaching wise, he's very good.

1:01:17But getting these guys that it's just been boosting these guys. Like you said, you brought up the contract implications. The Colts lost their two best linemen or not their two best linemen. That's that's a lie. They lost two good linemen and they got better with younger players. That is, that's rare. And that just speaks to what kind of what they're doing. It's so hard to do. And again, like these, this idea, there's no cap on coaches. And so you're saving$40 million against the cap. How much do you think Tony Sperano Jr. is making, you know, less than 500 grand. If like, yeah. And so it's, those are guys where like, if you have a good one, it's hard to figure out how much, if it's like, it's hard to overpay them.

1:01:54It's hard to get to a point where it's just like, oh, that guy's worth$5 million a year. Yes. If he's really good, yes, he absolutely is worth$5 million a year. The third most important person on the staff, I should say. It's head coach, OC, or line coach. And I would say maybe whoever is in charge of that third down, DB coverage stuff on top of that as well. But they're so important. My last one, let's stick with the Colts. It's Daniel Jones. Great one. This is. Actually, yeah. this is such an easy jumping off point. And it's something that we've revisited a ton over the last couple of years, but it's to me, it is one it's me.

1:02:33It's a cool story about professional football in the last two seasons is what has happened with these second chance retread quarterbacks. Like just think about it's happening every year. Like we had Darnold last year. We have Daniel Jones this year. We had Baker the year before that Gino is in that mix. Jared Goff was traded for nothing. He was the contract was a throw in and jared goff is now one of the most efficient quarterbacks in the nfl And so the fact that all of these guys And and I just think there's so many layers to this And I think we'll do like a real considered look at this at some point on the show in the back half of the season Because I think you could spend an hour easily talking about this idea because I feel like there are player development Things to dig into here.

1:03:15There are psychological things to dig into here There are financial things to dig into here, because if you look at this and I've talked about this a bunch, but like the Baker contract, for example. Right. So Baker gets a one year, four million dollar deal to come to Tampa. and then four million dollars right and so even that part of this is fascinating right so baker gets a four million dollar deal to come to tampa in 2023 now in part because these guys have succeeded the price tag for the one-year retread reclamation projects is 15 million dollars the because of how much is this working yeah jones got 15 and justin field's got more justin field's got two years of guarantees because of what's happened with these types of things so you're already seeing, I think the agents for these types of players get a little bit wise to this, but if you look at the multi-year financial outlook of it, Baker had a$4 million cap hit in 2023.

1:04:10He has a$7 million cap hit in 2024 and a$26 and a half million cap hit in 2025. So let's do the math on that. That is about$37 million over three years. That's what Caleb Williams makes. So this idea of a rookie quarterback contract, if you can get one of these guys that it's, maybe it's less upside because we've seen them fail to an extent, but we've also seen them play in the NFL. Like there is more certainty with this than there is with a guy like Anthony Richardson, for example. And so are you, you're having to pay a little bit more, but not that much more. And so if you feel good about a certain level of reliability with these guys, with everything else about your infrastructure being good.

1:04:55If you can tab the next one of them and he becomes available, there's like real value to be had here. So if you're a team next year and you think, you know what? Kyler, they didn't get the most of him in Arizona, but I think we can do it. And so Kyler's contract is obviously bigger than these guys, but it's a lot of base salaries now. You buy signing bonuses already paid out. You can play with some of the money and you can get it to a place where you're not paying him that much if you were to trade for him. And so I think these things will continue to happen because it's not a rookie quarterback contract, but it's not$55 million a year.

1:05:30It's somewhere in between. And so I just think you love the QB middle class. Yeah. You always have. Cause you're always you years ago, you would talk about this. Cause you're always like, what? Cause it didn't exist for a couple of years. It felt like it, there was, there was a stretch with like Andy doll and then Colin Kaepernick where they got those deals, the kind of middle class deals. And then it went away. and so now it's kind of back and so and this idea of like all of these guys are they're 27 28 they're more developed as players like they understand the game more and so these guys who are hyper talented are we at a place where their second stop is actually the place where you can get the most out of that talent you know it's just there are so many different aspects to this that i feel like are again just dictating the way that the nfl feels this year and has felt over the last couple years that even if this idea is kind of old hat now, because we've seen it four or five times over the fact that it happened again for a team that is the best offense in the NFL and fancies itself a Super Bowl contender, it's worth bringing it up again.

1:06:32Like this is not going away. It's getting to that same, like, cause the ideal of having a quarterback and a rookie contract, of course, is okay. Build up the rest of the team. And now we just at the cost and everything. Okay, cool. But usually you have a bell curve. There's not been not many rookies that are outright good, they're encouraging you know as for but you know league average is a win it's almost like an nba rookie it's like league average is a huge win for your first year at quarterback all right let's work out the kinks and pay them the same amount let's just get year two through four quarterback play but now they're 27 and we we and then also the lowering of expectations helps too because i mean that's the psychological aspect of it that's real but yeah you know just the players but just even how you sell it to everybody like you know that that matters so much okay this guy's That's such a great point.

1:07:18The patience it creates and like the leniency it creates is very different. Leniency in the weirdest way because people's expectations are lower. Fans, the staff. Oh, well, he's this because he's this. He's always been that. But also when it starts working out right, you know, like Baker or something like that or just other guys. Well, this guy's played in big games before, you know, like as opposed to a second year quarterback craps out. It goes, will he ever be able to figure it out? You know, like and again, I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. I'm just saying this is easy, the human element of all this to sell it.

1:07:50Well, of course he had a bad game. That's why we signed him for so cheap. You know, of course he had a bad game. That's why he's on his third team. But it's just it makes the excuses for everybody. And it makes almost less pressure on the quarterback in a weird way. It's so true. They're paying Sam Darnold$33 million a year in Seattle. Every Sam Darnold, obviously it's gone as better than anybody ever could have hoped. But let's say it didn't. every game wouldn't have been a weekly referendum on whether or not Sam Darnold is good, even though he's making three and a half times what Caleb Williams is making.

1:08:21Absolutely not. It's just, I mean, look at every second year quarterbacks fan base right now. Oh my God. It's just like, I live it every day. I know you do. And I get to dip my toes in and out when they're doing well. And it's just, if I even say anything, that's not like this guy's going to be an MVP in their future. Oh my God. You would say, I just say he's the worst quarterback ever. But if I say that about Darnold or just even or Baker or something like that, and then people just go, yeah, yeah, OK. But it's just like even for me as an analyst, it's actually a little bit easier because it's just like, well, yeah, I've already seen it.

1:08:52Like proof of concept, whatever you want to put expectations, self-fulfilling prophecy, whatever you want to say. But it's just kind of funny how there's just the element that narrative changes with all these guys. How much better would our lives be? The anxiety of fans and just the hit rate on players. If we just said every quarterback must sit for three years before they get to play. Oh, everything would just be so much better in life. So much better. Oh my God. I go through it with prospects right now. And because I'm an idiot and do a mid-season big board. And when I, and so I've learned my lesson, you know, from doing this for a few years now is just don't get into the conversations week in, week out.

1:09:31Just drop in, watch the four games, drop right back out. But it's just also even at the like, and it's just, I'm just acting like an evaluator. I'll talk about this in December and January, because I've realized even just you talk about any of the quarterbacks or any players. You're like, that was your receiver one. I'm like, yeah, it was. It was like, what are you going to do about it? Like, I just watched the four games, you know, just the week, weekend, week out results based like analyst that happens. It's just like, oh, it's exhausting. But yes, I agree. Every quarterback should sit for two, at least two years.

1:10:00We'll make it happen. We need, we need a, the money you pay that guy will not go against your salary cap. Like there are ways we can figure this out. We will solve quarterback development at some point in the next year. We'll put our heads together and we'll figure this out. Every week you don't play him. You get that money back on your cap. Like it's just like, it's just a boost. It's like, yeah, I can come up with some board game. We can save the owner's money somewhere along the way. That will be all over it. We will be able to convince people. They'll be all over it. It's always good to do this with you, buddy.

1:10:29Miss doing it with you. had such a fun time over the last couple of days, please tell everyone where they can check out the work that you are now doing over at Yahoo. Over at Yahoo. Yeah, Football 3-1 is the main squeeze with Charles McDonald and Matt Harmon. Podcasts, Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Sunday live shows. Before your live show, you can do a double header. You can go our show, Sunday Night Football, the athletic football show live show. Everybody wins. Everybody's happy about it. Also, written work over at Yahoo and TV stuff, NFL Network, check me out on Thursdays. Not this week, though.

1:10:59get the week off, which is kind of nice. Awesome. Thanks for the time, buddy. I know you're very busy, so I appreciate you doing it. Thanks for having me. Always a blast. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. If you have not checked out our free agent live stream, that is available in your guys' podcast feeds. We dropped it in there. We did it live on YouTube, but we felt like people would want to listen to that. So that is available in your podcast feeds. What did I say? Free agency? Yeah. I keep doing that. I've done it like five times over the last week. Your trade deadline recap is available in your podcast feeds.

1:11:29The free agency one, I don't think would do much good right now considering we did it in March. So please check that out. If you have not our week 10 preview, it will be on your feeds in Friday on Friday. So please check that out as well for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys. Listen, we'll talk to you very soon.

1:11:56Thank you.