The quarterback honorability index

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0:29Derrik Klassen: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Dave Hellman. One more episode for y 'all that we recorded while Robert was out on vacation. And I guess you could say I'm honored to be part of it because today we're going to be breaking down Derek Klassen's honorability index. If you listen to the show at all, you're probably familiar with the concept of honorable quarterback play. quarterbacks who are fearless quarterbacks who stand in the pocket they're not afraid of any throws they're not afraid of any situation we're going to go through derrick's index five to one the most honorable quarterbacks in the league all the way down to the least honorable quarterbacks in the league list is not fully complete we're leaving a few off of here rookies sorry you're gonna have to wait your turn cam ward we'll deal with you at another time we're not going to try to evaluate college tape here.

1:20Derrik Klassen: Also, a couple other guys that don't quite feel worth evaluating. J.J. McCarthy obviously only has two preseason quarters of football to go on, so sorry Vikings fans. No J.J. McCarthy here today. Russell Wilson, another one that we're leaving off. The goal here was to evaluate franchise quarterbacks, guys who have a defined future with their organization, less so one-off guys and things like that. So we're going to define what it is to be an honorable quarterback, a topic I've wanted to talk to Derek about for a long time. So I'm excited to put it all on the record. Let's get into it.

2:02Derrik Klassen: All right, Derek, I'm pumped for this one, man, because as an avid listener of the athletic football show myself, we've talked about the concept of honor and honorability many times and I think you get a feel for what you're talking about just by listening to the context but it's summer we got some time until training camp we want to dive into it we want to define this so it's the honorability index specifically quarterbacks right now although I am excited at the idea that maybe we could expand this I feel like you would be dying to talk about linebacker honorability maybe you know maybe uh running backs whatever we'll we'll get there the point is today it's all about quarterbacks and we're just we're gonna go through the honorability index of quarterbacks who actually you know what i don't i don't want to take the words out of your mouth i was gonna say who play the game the right way but before we get into the index can we just try to define this

3:00Dave Helman: thing real quick for listeners i'm gonna do my best and like you said if you know people have been listening to the show for the past year or so, probably been able to pick up the cookie crumbs of like what honorability means, at least through the lens of quarterbacks and which ones I view as a lens. And so the way that we're going to do this is I have five tiers. I have five tiers of honorability, basically. And to be clear to the people, it's not a matter of quality of play. Like you can be in the highest tier and kind of not be that good of a quarterback. You can be in one of the lower tiers and be like a guy who can put up MVP level seasons or win Super Bowls.

3:35Dave Helman: It's more just about a style of play and kind of what I mean by that. For me personally, the right way to play quarterback is guys who are very willing to hang in the pocket and slide around and really make creative plays within the pocket and want to extend the play from within the pocket. Guys who really want to throw certain routes specifically over the middle of the field, the guys who hit those backside digger outs, the seam routes and stuff like that. guys who love to throw with anticipation and do so aggressively like guys who are just very willing to all right it's a 15 yard comeback here it's to the field this is a far throw but hey man I've got the arm for it I'm gonna see if I can make it happen and guys who are just generally willing to in so I come from a lot playing a lot of video games right and players who just want to like skill check people that that's like a way that they define it it's like you're just skill checking them, your hands checking them.

4:25Dave Helman: It's like, are you better at clicking the mouse than I am? And that's kind of how I define some of these quarterbacks. It's like they are just better at maneuvering around a football field than the other guys.

4:34Derrik Klassen: So for people who play Madden or college football video games, like you can be amazing at Madden by finding the six plays that break the game and you can beat everybody. But is it the most honorable way to play the game? Like that's what we're looking for here.

4:49Dave Helman: And that's perfect because as we, you know, we'll get into it as we get to some of the lower tiers, there are some good quarterbacks, but they're also good quarterbacks by virtue of doing like three things well. And that's kind of it. And that's kind of what I mean. Like there, there is a little bit of flexibility in being an honorable quarterback. And so that is probably without diving into the tiers too much, probably the best way to, to give us an overall framework here.

5:12Derrik Klassen: Do you think it's fair? I've been thinking about this a lot while we've been prepping for the show. Do you think it's fair to say that fearless is almost a little bit of a synonym for honorable?

5:23Dave Helman: It's definitely it is one of the requirements, but I would say it is the most important requirement is that you have to be fearless. And I would even say, you know, I'll kind of jump in right into it right now. So the top tier, which is tier five for me, there's the difference between them. And we'll talk about tier four later, is that they're all very honorable quarterbacks who are willing to make aggressive throws and be creative. but the guys in this tier five at the very top, it's not that they are aggressive or fearless. It's that they are a little bit unhinged. Like there's something in their brain is ticking a little bit different.

5:57Dave Helman: And the way that we're going to do this entire show, and we'll start with this tier, obviously, is that I'm going to pick one quarterback for each of these tiers, who is kind of the poster boy for that tier. And for tier five, these completely unhinged quarterbacks, it obviously has to be Matthew Stafford, right? Like there is no quarterback in the league who, like I talked about, where you're just skill checking the other team. That's Matthew Stafford. He believes that he can make every tight window throw. He believes that he can access every arm angle. He believes that he can make a 40 yard throw when he knows he's going to get smoked in the chin strap.

6:31Dave Helman: Like he there is no throw. There is no situation that Matthew Stafford does not believe that he can be the better player in. And does that lead to some misfires? Does that lead to some sacks? Does that lead to some pretty ugly interceptions every now and then? Of course, but there is an honor ability in being able to live with those plays. And Matthew Stafford is the king of living with those plays and doing it again on the next drive.

6:55Derrik Klassen: So let's use that as our jumping off point. We're going to start with tier five, the psychopaths, the fearless, honorable quarterbacks. You've got six of them and clearly Matthew Stafford stands out to you. And for good reason, I might add. And what I admire about Matthew Stafford, I guess maybe you'd expect it from a guy who was a number one overall pick who had a ton of hype coming into the league, but he's always been that guy. Like he's certainly a more wily player in his older age, but he has always been the guy with absolute confidence in his arm who is not afraid of a throw. I mean, he's iconic for playing through the busted shoulder when he was a rookie.

7:36Derrik Klassen: I really do feel like he embodies that type of quarterback.

7:41Dave Helman: He absolutely does. And there is one specific throw that I mean, Matthew Stafford has a million of them, but there is one at the end of the 2023 season. They were playing the Ravens that year and the Ravens at that time were probably the best defense in the league. And at the time, Roquan Smith was outside of Fred Warner, obviously probably the best coverage linebacker in the league. and there's a play where Matthew Stafford drops back. I think he was under center. And the moment his back foot hits, he is ripping a seam ball straight past the ear hole of Roquan Smith. And it's just like to have the confidence to, at that point, if you're throwing at the very top of your drop, you're almost not even confirming what you're seeing.

8:22Dave Helman: You're kind of just believing that the throw is going to be there and believing that you can make the throw and believing that you have the arm talent to do it. And he just puts this ball, I mean, two inches past Roquan Smith's helmet and completes the seam ball. And it's just like there's only a handful of guys who would, one, be willing to make that throw and then to be capable of it. And if he had not made that throw, probably two quarters later, if they call the same play again, he would have been willing to try it again. And that's what I mean by honorability is like he is not scared to fail.

8:52Dave Helman: And that is pretty much a prerequisite to, I think, be in this top, top tier of honorability.

8:58Derrik Klassen: without diving into the rest of the tiers too early how much of that is dependent on freakish arm talent because Matthew Stafford I mean part of the reason you get drafted number one overall is because you have a cannon and you need a cannon to make some of the types of throws that we see from guys in this tier how much of that is part of it it's a huge part of it because

9:22Dave Helman: one informs the other right it's like it is it's what you're talking about when you grow up having you know 99 arm strength you you you start testing the what if you're if you're a good quarterback you start testing the waters in high school and then you start testing it in college and you start testing it early on in the NFL and you just build up this insane repertoire of like things that you know that you can get away with and only like four or five other guys can't and so literally I would say there's only one guy in the top tier that I have and I'll just you know for the sake of it I'll just list out the rest give us the rest give us the other five so the other guys in this tier are Jordan Love obviously he's a little bit of a wild boy Josh Allen Gino Smith Sam Darnold and Dak Prescott and I would say Dak Prescott is probably the only one who doesn't have like a really like an a-level arm like Dak's arm is good but it's not I don't think it's quite as good as Gino Smith or Josh Allen or Sam Darnold or those guys I would agree with that

10:18Derrik Klassen: yeah that is okay like this is and this is a perfect encapsulation of what we're talking about because like when when you're when you're ranking quarterbacks, when you're discussing quarterback play, you assume that the best tier possible is going to be full of the most accomplished guys. And here, I think the one I thought Jordan Love was going to be the one that surprised me most, but I think it's Sam Darnold. Like how does Sam Darnold wind up here?

10:45Dave Helman: I mean, Sam Darnold is he and he is exactly he is the perfect guy for this is not a measure of quality but when I think about the way that Sam Darnold plays the game he's going to sit back in deep pockets and he's going to hold on to the ball does he do that to his detriment of course he does he takes a lot he took a lot of bad sacks last year and he's kind of in some ways oblivious to pressure a lot of the time but in some ways that works for him because he's it kind of cuts into that fearlessness where he's willing to just stand there know that he's going to get because of

11:16Derrik Klassen: obliviousness more so than fearless because you're willing to stand under fire you can arrive

11:21Dave Helman: at fearless in different ways for Matthew Stafford it's different than Sam Darnold but they kind of arrive at the same spot one way or another and so I think he has that quality to him and I think we certainly saw last year but I think this was even true you know when Sam Darnold wasn't very good is that he's just willing to make any throw like he is it doesn't matter if it's covered if it's late in the down if it's 40 yards down the field if it's a you know far hash you know 10 yard speed out he is like I believe that my arm can get the ball there and I mean when you watch him in college like he could a lot of the time at USC his arm was like phenomenal and it has been in the NFL and he he really can make every throw and then the last thing I would say too is like Darnold I think what we especially saw last year is like he does have a little bit more creativity to him than I think we saw early on in his career.

12:09Dave Helman: Like, I think early on in his career, he was just spinning all the time and you didn't get to see the fruits of his ability to like work outside of the pocket a little bit. But I think last year when he felt a little bit more confident, he kind of did want to make some throws outside of the pocket and do some wild boy stuff.

12:24Derrik Klassen: I'm ruminating back on the season now that I'm thinking about this. And I mean, you can find audacious throws littered in Sam Darnold's tape, like whether it's over the middle or yeah, I'm thinking about a couple plays he made outside the pocket. I believe it was against Arizona where I mean, again, being a high draft pick is probably a big part of this, because when you can fall back on that level of talent, you can do some wild stuff.

12:49Dave Helman: Exactly. Like it's having I would say, again, that is to split, you know, we'll get into tier four later. But to differentiate between tier four, the guys who are pretty aggressive, but not this level, it's like like you mentioned, the elite arm talent kind of informs your play style here. and then it's just like that unhinged ability like Sam Darnold to a in a way that like so Matthew Stafford will make a mistake and then he's not scared to make another throw later in the game right but Matthew Stafford is so good that it usually works the difference for most of Sam Darnold's career is that he wasn't good enough and wasn't making the right decisions often enough that it looked bad but like on a philosophical level he is it makes sense that he is just like so aggressive and so willing to just keep making mistakes it's just that I don't think he was ever taught the game very well because obviously some of the early coaching staffs that he had to deal with and just never got the good reps that I think Matthew Stafford after being in the league for over a decade has finally built up.

13:46Derrik Klassen: Gino and Dak, in my experience from listening to the show, are kind of the poster boys for this entire exercise. I don't know how much time we need to spend. I am curious. Again, another season cut short by injury for Dak Prescott, a lower body injury you worry about his mobility and his ability to extend plays I mean I don't think that changes his game drastically he's a pocket quarterback but I do wonder how that stuff starts to add up and if it changes his willingness to take risks I almost wonder if that just makes

14:19Dave Helman: him more aggressive as a passer which sounds crazy right like because like if he's not going to be able to get outside of the pocket at all you almost have to squeeze everything out of what you're doing as a passer and that might mean forcing a few more you know tight window throws to george pickens which if anything george like i've had some quibbles about like how good is george pickens really but the more you think about it it's like he actually really is the

14:40Derrik Klassen: perfect dac prescott receiver because i think they're custom made for each other honestly i yes like i think that's going to be a beautiful relationship like all dac wants to do is is throw

14:51Dave Helman: like a curl route right in someone's chest when it's kind of covered and george pickens is going to go try to find it and so I think it's like a perfect uh way and the last thing I'll say like part of why Dak actually gets pushed into this tier one he is just super aggressive right like some of the seam throws he's willing to make the post throws some of the throws outside of the numbers he is an aggressive quarterback but also almost all of the guys that I have in this tier are also like pre-snap like they take responsibility of the offense and that to me is honorable like Matthew Stafford ton of responsibility Dak Prescott maybe more than anyone else in the league is also up there in terms of like how much he puts on himself pre-snap.

15:27Dave Helman: Gino Smith does a lot of that. Josh Allen has really taken on a lot of that. So I think that's less true of Darnold and Jordan Love, but they make up for that by being like even more insane in terms of some of the throws they're willing to make.

15:39Derrik Klassen: I don't think we can afford to spend this much time on all the quarterbacks in every tier, but real quick before we move on, I mean, Jordan Love raised my eyebrows as well. And look, he is, he's such a fun player. The arm talent is obvious. The athleticism is there. He does a lot of really, really fun stuff. I think my question with Jordan Love is how do you ride the line between fearless and reckless? And that's what, and like, I think I said it on a previous show. Like, I don't think Jordan Love's a bad quarterback. I don't think he's completely reckless, but like you see the audacious attempts, you see him with the jumping off of his back foot as often as he does.

16:16Derrik Klassen: Like maybe that is a by-product of injury, but I'm not completely convinced Jordan Love has like mastered the art of when to take risks oh I don't think he's mastered

16:27Dave Helman: it in terms of like quality like getting to the Matthew Stafford level he's not there but I I think he has like the the groundwork and the right mentality for it like the his the fact that he is so willing to make these weird arm slot throws or or make these jump throws and stuff obviously the efficacy of how good that is right now is a little bit up in the air and he can he can do some really stupid stuff. But I think the fact that he's so willing to do it goes back to like he is just constantly willing to on any throw just skill check the other team. I mean, there's a man. Who are they playing?

17:01Dave Helman: I don't remember who they were playing, but it's one of the tight window throws he threw to Tucker Craft in the end zone last year was just like, I think only him and Matthew said, you know, I'm talking about.

17:11Derrik Klassen: I can't remember the team either. But yeah, I mean, it was it was a level of audacious that it's even by NFL standards was it kind of made your jaw drop

17:21Dave Helman: a little bit and that's what I mean like it's him and Matthew Stafford making that throw that's it like like even the other guys in this tier I think might shy away from that throw and that's what I mean with Jordan Love is like is he perfect at you know tapping into the best version of all of these traits no but neither is Sam Darnold and I think Jordan Love is like somewhere between where we're at quality wise with Sam Darnold and you know, where we're at quality wise with guys like Josh Allen and Matthew Stafford.

17:47Derrik Klassen: So if you're keeping score at home, that is the top, that is the fifth tier, the most honorable tier of the honorability index. And we left out several NFL MVPs. If you're paying attention to that, we will get to them. But before we do tiers four, three, two, we're actually, we're going to play this a different way. We're going to try to define this clearly by jumping to one in the honorability index. So now that you know what Derek is looking for in an honorable quarterback, we want you to know what dishonorable quarterback play looks like. And I believe there are three ones in your index.

18:24Dave Helman: There are three. And one thing I want to say before that is one, this is going to be a great way to set the table, you know, doing the different ends of the spectrum here. But one thing I want to say clearly is like I have so I have these five tiers, right? And we're only ranking like 24 ish quarterbacks because we don't want to do rookies or we don't really need to talk about Joe Flacco or anything like that. We're only doing like serious quarterbacks right now. But most I would say like it's like 17 of them are either tier three or above. And I think that's important because I think playing NFL quarterback at a relatively high level is kind of honorable by default.

18:58Dave Helman: And then it just becomes like how high can you really reach? And that's why there's only a handful of guys in this bottom tier but unfortunately the the guy I have to put in the bottom tier and he wasn't this way early in his career and it's important to point that out is Aaron Rodgers like 2024 Aaron Rodgers is dishonorable quarterback play and they're like I could approach this from a bunch of different angles one the lower tier guys that I have here can be successful but are often only successful in very specific modes of offense. And with Aaron Rodgers, I think that's absolutely true at this point in his career.

19:35Dave Helman: He wants to throw a stick. He wants to throw like slant flat and he wants to throw his, you know, million back shoulder fade balls. And like outside of that, he's a little bit unwilling to be aggressive within the offense. And so that is why he's a little bit lower on the honorability. He also, I don't think, wants to hang on to the ball and like move around and be creative and get hit as much as he used to early in his career. And again, part of that is you know with the Achilles totally understandable he is getting older so he just physically can't do some of that stuff anymore but it's clear that he just I I think compared to you know six years ago when he was winning some MVPs just doesn't have that same like I'm gonna hold on to the ball and the longer I hold on to it the more good things are gonna happen he just doesn't do that

20:16Derrik Klassen: anymore it's got to be hard for a guy like Aaron Rodgers who clearly you know he's not a mobile quarterback in the way we think of like a Lamar or Jalen Hurts, but he, part of his greatness was so dependent on his ability to extend a play to like break, contain, and hold onto the ball past that three and a half second threshold where magical things happen. It's got to suck for him where that, like that really can't be a part of his game anymore. And yeah, I'm, I'm sure it has been tough or or humbling or deflating for him to adjust to that reality 100 like when you go from

20:53Dave Helman: being you know before my home's probably the most talented thrower that i've ever seen to what he is now and he's still a decent thrower but again to not have the mobility to not be able to hold on to the ball i think the way that he used to um his you know kind of mode of being able to hold on to some degree of viability has just been like okay i'm just gonna make these four throws that i know I can make. And that's going to be that. And that to me is a little bit dishonorable.

21:17Derrik Klassen: I will like, and I agree with you, like for my money. Yeah. Up until my homes Rogers is he's at least in person, he's certainly like the most talented football thrower quarterback that I've ever watched. Like him, Stafford, my homes. I mean, in his prime, he was incredible. I will say even when he was winning MVPs, I feel dumb critiquing a four-time MVP, but like his passer rating was as good as it was because he was often not going to put the ball at risk, which is a smart way to play quarterback. And, you know, coaches tell you all the time, the ball is the most important thing. So I feel dumb dinging the guy for not being willing to do crazy shit with the ball, but it can be less fun to watch than a guy who's just ready to rip anything that comes open.

22:05Dave Helman: And he also throws the ball away a lot, which again, can be smart. and they're they're like there are some really good quarterbacks even some higher honorability quarterbacks who do that a lot but with Aaron Rodgers it so often feels more like okay the first two things I wanted aren't there I'm aborting the play whereas like when I watch like Josh Allen throw away it's because he's held on to the ball for seven seconds and is finally like all right I will finally throw the you know I'll finally wave the white flag here and we're done here whereas Aaron Rodgers I think he's a lot more quick to abort plays and that to me is I think another part of the dishonorability is like he's just not very willing to put the ball in harm's way anymore and I guess he never was but like that trait now coupled with the way that his game has developed over the last three years like it it feels even more icky than I think it did

22:53Derrik Klassen: before it does feel like a worthwhile caveat that head coaches probably love dishonorable quarterback play like like I'm like honorable quarterbacks unless you're just the very best at what you do probably drive their coaches crazy if I had to guess oh oh definitely and I would I

23:12Dave Helman: would say like this stage of Aaron Rodgers is probably like too far on the other end right where like they might be screaming like hey you got to do something but like you know when we get to tier three we'll talk about like even though I love watching the tier five guys the real sweet spot probably is like tier three or tier four in terms of like what you actually want out of your quarterback but like tier one is it's a little bit too far in terms of the like I need the offense this way. These are the only throws I want to make. I'm never going to put the ball in harm's way. It's just it's it's too much.

23:39Derrik Klassen: Who are your other two tier one quarterbacks? Yeah.

23:43Dave Helman: So 2024, 2025 Aaron Rodgers is is in there. The other two are to a tongue of Iloa. And again, this kind of goes back to like you could be a productive quarterback being by what I view kind of dishonorable. And with Tua, I think people are going to look at his especially like in 2020, 2020, 2022 and 2023, his air yards and be like, well, he's throwing down the field. That that can't be that dishonorable. But when you watch the way that he's doing it, where everything is like he's not even really reading the field, it's a lot of like one, two bang. I'm throwing the drift route kind of automatically.

24:20Dave Helman: It's like a lot of what we saw from Jimmy Garoppolo, obviously early on in the Shanahan stuff where he's just and then again, he has that on top of the balls out way too early. a lot of the time. He's a guy who I think doesn't really like holding onto the ball within the pocket and maneuvering within the pocket. And then it also goes back to the last thing I would say is, you know, I kind of talked about a little bit at the top, the honorable guys are willing to make any throw all over the field all the time. Tua Tungabailoa, to me, still struggles with willingness and ability to throw outside of the numbers.

24:53Dave Helman: And that to me is always going to be something that It's like it's really hard for me to get over. And maybe that's like a more of a me problem than a him problem, because obviously he's put up MVP numbers. But it just I don't like watching it.

25:05Derrik Klassen: My only pushback is that it's probably the way he needs to play, given his history with concussions and things like that. Like get the ball out of his hands. So I feel I feel bad criticizing him for that. I will say just generalizing the vast majority of the fun stuff that happens in Miami's offense happens after the ball carrier or the receiver gets the ball. You know, like to his throws are not what electrify me about Miami Dolphins football. It's Tyreek or Waddle or HN running with the football after they get it. So I think those two things might go together.

25:41Dave Helman: Exactly. And that's part of it, too. Like when you in a majority of cases, the tier four and tier five guys like the throw itself is what's exciting about the offense. Like that's such a great point. Whereas when I watch, especially like to a tongue of my low and the Dolphins now, he can make some nice throws. But what really goes is like, oh, my God, Jalen Waddle made two guys miss. Oh, my God. Devin A. Chan is the fastest guy I've ever seen. Oh, my God. Tyreek Hill, who's 30 something, is still one of the fastest players I've ever seen. Like that's more of like what is making it go. so I think that's part of it for me and then the last guy I have in this tier um who I think is it's probably going to end up starting week one even though we might not have thought that a month ago is Daniel Jones like at this stage of Daniel Jones which is funny because I think like early career Daniel Jones was like a four but he just doesn't play like that at all like ever since that 2022 season he's kind of just we're checking down we're getting the ball out we're not doing anything you know very interesting he's kind of just he's a different player than he used to be I think

26:40Derrik Klassen: this is a topic for a different show but i'm i'm mildly curious to see what a what daniel jones could look like in a more talented overall offense with shane the giants like i mean look nowhere to go but up but i i don't have a ton of of pushback on that but now that we have set the parameters here five and one we can get into the fun stuff which is digging through the muddy middle We will do that on the other side of this break. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for? The one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded? I found it. And trust me, it's not what you expect.

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29:45Derrik Klassen: All right, Derek, five and one are the easy part of the honorability index. We have defined what it means to be an honorable quarterback or maybe what dishonorable quarterback play looks like. And like I said earlier, we still got a lot of notable names to get to. We haven't covered a lot of the league's very best. So let's jump back to four, which is slightly below the most honorable players. Maybe you're a little less willing to get reckless. Maybe you're not quite as fearless as the guys we already mentioned. How many do you have in the four tier? And let's get into them.

30:20Dave Helman: I've got seven of them and we will hit some of our MVPs and MVP candidates here so this is where we'll start to get into those obviously Josh Allen was really the only guy uh in that tippy top tier and you know again I mentioned it a little bit earlier tier five is really like you don't have to be in tier five like those guys are a little bit different that's like a little bit too far that's like the Brett Favre school of quarterbacking and there's there's I love it but you don't need to you don't need to be in that tier necessarily tier four is the guys who are still willing to hang into the pocket guys who are willing to take hits guys who are willing to extend the plays and really be a little bit more creative and guys who are again willing to throw with anticipation to every level of the field like guys who are just okay i can hit this speed out i can hit this you know 12 yard stop route off of play action i just turned my back i don't care i'm gonna make this throw.

31:13Dave Helman: I can throw all the way down the field. I can throw it like whatever it is. These are guys who are willing to make every throw be in structure, out of structure, whatever. And so the poster boy for this tier to me is CJ Stroud, like CJ Stroud. I would consider a very aggressive quarterback who isn't necessarily unhinged. Like he's not quite in that like Matthew Stafford, Jordan Love, like the oh my God, why did you do that throws? Oh, you completed anyway. But CJ Stroud is willing to like very aggressively push windows down the field, especially to guys like Nico Collins. And I really appreciate that.

31:48Dave Helman: And then his willingness, and this really stood out as a rookie to make throws in muddied pockets, knowing he's going to get hit, knowing he's crowded and just finding these weird little, you know, he'll get a little sidearm or he'll go up on his tippy toes to make sure he can get the ball over like to do that without any hitch. Like he's just so fearless being like, oh, I've got the answer. We're good here. That to me is pretty honorable and so cj strout is like the perfect not insane but a very clearly aggressive and honorable quarterback in the way that he plays here's where i want to push back on your

32:21Derrik Klassen: methodology a little bit it may and maybe it's not but if or it feels like a blind spot or maybe something that is yet to be defined but where does running ability and the way that you operate as a ball carrier factor into this or is it purely about how you throw the football

32:40Dave Helman: it's mostly about how you throw the football and there is one maybe two exceptions that i'll get to i i would say this the reason the i would say the way that you carry the ball like past the line of scrimmage isn't really as much of a the point to me but there are some guys who pull the rip cord a little bit too early on plays as scramblers and that to me is like while very effective and very good is like mildly dishonorable. It goes back to the Madden thing you were talking about, right? We're like, they're mad is dishonorable to Derek classic.

33:13Derrik Klassen: He's like, that's too easy. Of course you can pick up eight yards with your feet. Yeah. Come on. Like make throw into a tight window. What are we doing here? And look, this is, this is your baby. So you are entitled to define it however you want, but like, and that's where I would push back is a Josh Allen. The way that he plays the game, like a, a Buffalo, literally a buffalo just willing to do whatever he runs on receivers he runs honorably he's fearless and honestly we talked about him the other day he's nowhere near as big but baker mayfield plays the game in a very similar way where he will stiff arm a linebacker or try to dead leg a safety if he thinks he's going to pick up more yardage so if you as a franchise quarterback treat your body with no regard maybe it's not the smartest way to play but I I think it's pretty

34:07Dave Helman: honorable yeah exactly and you know what Baker Mayfield is in this tier and so again we don't have to get to like every single quarterback but Baker Mayfield is in this tier for for that reason like Baker I think especially compared to like three years ago honestly is way more willing to stand in the pocket he's more willing to take hits and I think he's just a more confident passer than he ever was like, especially outside of the numbers. I think early on with the Browns, he was willing to make some of the throws over the middle and stuff like that, especially off of play action. But he's really grown into more of like a true, pure drop back passer.

34:37Dave Helman: And I think it's been very fun to watch. And it goes a little bit back to the arm talent thing, right? Like Baker doesn't have the most insane arm, but he can put some miles per hour on that thing. And I think he's always grown up being believing that he could do it. And there's some throws that, you know, maybe he shouldn't believe that he can do it, but he does. And I respect that. I think it's honorable.

34:56Derrik Klassen: I feel better about this knowing that mobility is a little less of a factor, which makes sense. I mean, so is that, you know, if I'm a Bills fan, furious that Josh Allen gets pegged down a notch, is it mainly because of what he can do with his feet and the way that he might bail out of structure in a way that other quarterbacks simply can't? Because I think C.J. Stroud is, he's a mobile guy, he's an athletic guy, But C.J. Stroud is not making plays outside the pocket with his feet the way that a Josh Allen can. And so maybe that is the difference where C.J. Stroud has to find the throw and Josh Allen can maybe just do some Superman shit.

35:35Dave Helman: Yeah. And like I think Josh Allen, I would say now compared to early in his career. Is actually like a more honorable scrambler, if that makes sense, because I think earlier in his career, Josh Allen didn't necessarily know as much of what he was looking at. So he kind of would just abort plays early and become a runner. I think now when he's a runner, it is it is almost purely by necessity. And that to me is honorable. You know what I mean? And so we'll talk about some of the scramblers later where I think they can be obviously they can run for a thousand yards. But to me, sometimes they're pulling the ripcord a little bit too early.

36:08Dave Helman: And if we're talking about like honorable passing ability, it doesn't quite get into that.

36:13Derrik Klassen: All right. We've covered three of them, I believe. Who are who are the rest of your seven tier four quarterbacks?

36:19Dave Helman: Yeah, so obviously C.J. Stroud was the poster boy. We've got Lamar Jackson in here, who I think is a very aggressive and creative passer, but not unhinged to the degree of the other guys. Brock Purdy is in here. Like he is a guy who will just hang in the pocket and make some awesome throws and not afraid of any tight windows. Joe Burrow is in here. And the only reason Joe Burrow, I think it's knocked down slightly from five is like he's willing to make some really aggressive throws. but I think because of the nature of the offense being so kind of like point and shoot they like they do a lot of quick game I kind of dinged him for that just a smidgen um obviously we mentioned Baker Mayfield Trevor Lawrence is in here because he's a guy who won't hold the ball for all that long because he doesn't need to but he'll still throw the ball 20 yards down the field and he's like I'll hit Brian Thomas on the stop route perfectly we're good here and then the last one is Bryce Young and Bryce Young like quality wise is not up to the level of all these guys but I think what we saw towards the second half of last year when he really came back was like Bryce Young will stand in the pocket he will take a hit he will make a really aggressive tight window throw like some of the throws that he was making into cover two holes I don't really think he has the arm to be doing that consistently but he kind of made it work anyway and I do respect that and so like he's another guy where I don't know if the quality of play is up to the level of these other quarterbacks, but I at least respect what he's trying to do out there.

37:41Derrik Klassen: I think it's very interesting that Bryce, Joe Burrow and Baker all make this tier all clearly good enough quarterbacks to be the number one overall pick in their respective draft, but not as freakishly talented as a Matthew Stafford. I mean, all those guys have plenty good arms, but it's just not of that caliber where you can throw a football through drywall. And so maybe you wind up here because of your understanding and your ability to manipulate the game the right way. But you just have to know your limitations at a certain point, even as a number one overall pick.

38:17Dave Helman: And I think that's a good way to frame the difference is that all those guys were number one picks and they probably all grew up believing like I can make any throw on the field with Matthew Stafford. It's I can make throws that nobody else can even conceive of like nobody else has thought to made this throw. And that's the difference between tier four and tier five, basically. All right.

38:36Derrik Klassen: That takes us through tier four and I'm getting nervous because we have not heard the name of, in my opinion, still, maybe this is a hot take now, but in my opinion, still the best quarterback walking the planet today. So I don't know, let's jump into tier three. Maybe we'll hear, uh, that name that I'm searching for.

38:59Dave Helman: Uh, we will, he's not the poster boy for this tier, but Patrick Mahomes is in. OK, all right. I was just making sure we found him. All right. And the way I want to frame this tier is like this is the guys who are balanced in the right way. Like they they have modes of their play that are aggressive and there are certain things that they're willing to do that are clearly honorable to me. But they might have one or two deficiencies or maybe they're slightly more quick to check down than some of these other guys. Or maybe there's just one or two throws they're not that willing to make. And I think the best example of this to me is like Jared Goff.

39:35Dave Helman: Jared Goff, very willing now to stand in the pocket and take a hit and just believe in the system. And there is to me an honorability of like believing that a throw will be there and just believing that I can make it. Like some of the dig routes that he's throwing, there are not many guys who are fearless enough to consistently make those throws. And I love that. And he really has grown into this ability to just trust that the offense is going to do what it needs to do. and trust that I have the arm talent to get it there. And I think he's done a good job of that. I also think Goff has taken on more responsibility within the offense, which I talked about in some of the earlier tiers.

40:08Dave Helman: Whereas, you know, when he was with McVay, he didn't do a whole lot of that. But I do think in Detroit, he's taken on more responsibility pre-snap for that. And that to me is a little bit honorable. The difference to me is that I do think that with Jared Goff, when he's forced off his spot and kind of forced off the timing of a play, you can see him crumble a little bit. And that to me is a little bit of a dishonorable trait. And then the other thing is he doesn't throw vertically very often. Like he's so willing to throw into a tight window within 20 yards, like those dig routes. He'll throw us a pop pass really early, any slant route to like St.

40:42Dave Helman: Brown. He'll just pin it right into a tight window. But throwing down the field, he just doesn't do it a lot. And he didn't really do it that much, even with the Rams when they were a great offense. Like he just isn't a guy who wants to push down the field. So that to me is where he's got a handful of these traits that to me are very clearly honorable. And he's got one or two deficiencies that are like, you're not quite as unhinged as some of the other guys.

41:05Derrik Klassen: It's it's unfair. I feel bad. But Jared Goff to me is like the poster boy. And again, to go back to my previous point, this is probably the way that a coach would prefer you play the vast majority of the time. But yeah, if you get him off his spot, if you can collapse the pocket quicker than than they're anticipating, the play is probably over more often than not. And Jared Goff knows that he's probably going to try to end the play himself by just getting on the ground. And that is smart. Football still bums me out to watch. Like, that's not what we want to see the crazy stuff. We want the guys who can break, contain or spin out of a tackle.

41:43Derrik Klassen: And I know that's really hard to do. And that's not Jared Goff's game. But that's what I want to see from a quarterback. That's my that's that's why we tune in. And you're not getting that from him.

41:55Dave Helman: Exactly. And like I just that's what it is with Jared Goff is that you can so within one drive really see all of it, right? Like they're on the same drive. He might like take a shot to replace the blitz. Two plays later, he pins a dig route to Jameson Williams and into a really tight window. And then three plays after that, he's just like frantically scrambling around late in a play and just like eats a sack that he doesn't need to eat. And it's just like, that's why you're tier three instead of tier four. And again, you make a great point, though, like this tier of players. And I'll rattle off a lot of the other ones in just a second.

42:27Dave Helman: Yeah, it's probably like how you want your quarterback to play. And I think Patrick Mahomes, actually, before I get to the rest of the names, I'll explain why Patrick Mahomes is actually a great indication.

42:38Derrik Klassen: Let's get into Pat, because I mean, I'm interested in this and I think I understand it. But I mean, Patrick Mahomes can do all of that stuff. I mean, he's got the arm strength. He's got the mobility. He can extend plays. He maybe if he's not always willing, he certainly can put throws anywhere on the field. So if he has a tier four or tier five skill set, why is he in tier three?

43:02Dave Helman: That's the thing. He can, but he doesn't anymore. And he obviously when he came into the league, he was a tier five. He might have been tier six. Like he might have been his own. Like when he came into the league, he was a really different player. Just in terms of so willing to throw down the field, so willing to throw into tight windows, so willing to. Just like create out of thin air these weird opportunities to just, again, skill check the defense and be like, I'm better than you and there's nothing that you could do. And when he has to go to that mode, he can still do it, obviously. But he's gotten to the point where he knows that, like, I don't really have to do that anymore.

43:38Dave Helman: And he's become a much more conservative passer. Like and again, I want to be clear that this is. To his benefit, like he's a better player now than he was in 2018 or 2019, but part of that growth has been like, I'm just not going to do the crazy stuff anymore. Like he actually I think the brilliance of Patrick Mahomes in 2024, like the current version of him, is that his shot selection is better than any quarterback in the league. Like he knows when it's time to do the stupid unhinged stuff. He also knows when it's time to just be like, you know what? We're going to take three yards here. It's fine.

44:11Dave Helman: We'll get to it. And like that is to the point that you were making this tier and what Patrick Mahomes has become compared to what he was. This is like the idealized like mode of quarterback plays like this tier three.

44:24Derrik Klassen: Patrick Mahomes at this point just reminds me of like a Chris Paul or like a you know any any point guard that's played in the in the NBA for an ungodly amount of time where you just under not only do you understand the ins and outs of every facet of the game and the position but just like how the league works like I'm getting that call in the fourth quarter but I'm not getting that call in the first quarter or like exactly understanding the like the wind patterns in one city as opposed to the other. Just stupid stuff like that. He understands all of it. Like he can see the lines in the matrix and it makes him an impossibly smart player and a tough player to beat, but maybe not as fun of a player as what he took the league by storm doing six or seven years ago.

45:12Dave Helman: He plays now like closer to late stage Drew Brees than anything, but it's just that when he wants to be he can also be what Josh Allen is right now it's just that he doesn't

45:23Derrik Klassen: say yeah Drew Brees never had that in his bag of like at the end of the day breaking a tackle and getting six yards on fourth and three or whatever you know he just he has that ability that a guy

45:33Dave Helman: like Drew Brees was just not able to showcase exactly and he's just gotten so good at that stuff that I just think he doesn't again he doesn't need to do the crazy more like I'm just going to hang in here and take a shot and throw 30 yards down the field. He just doesn't have to do as much of that. And actually, the last thing I will say about Patrick Mahomes, like I think we could maybe make the case that he should be four. But part of the reason I was OK with putting him at three. Some of the stuff he does as a scrambler on the sideline with like using the sideline as like baiting defenders and baiting penalties, that's dishonorable to me.

46:07Dave Helman: I don't love that. So that was why I was OK putting him here.

46:10Derrik Klassen: I mean, again, it's dishonorable, but incredibly smart. Like it's the type of thing. It's, you know, if, if you're playing him, it makes you hate him. And if you are neutral or for the chiefs, you love that ability. And again, that just understanding of not just the rules, but the situations, there's not a better situational football player in the NFL. I mean, maybe ever, but definitely not today. I guess I shouldn't say that knowing Tom Brady was incredible at that stuff as well, but definitely today. I, I, it's, it's crazy to think in like, people are too close to it now, but in like four or five years, they're going to look back and be like, this was Patrick Mahomes is skill group.

46:56Derrik Klassen: When he dragged the chiefs to super bowl 59, like no Hollywood Brown from training camp until January, Xavier worthy took two and a half months to come on. Rasheed Rice goes down in week three or week four. And Patrick Mahomes, just by perfectly placing 25 mid-range passes per game, was able to get them to the Super Bowl. It's honestly incredible even knowing what happened in that game.

47:22Dave Helman: Yeah, it's like and that doesn't even get to like Travis Kelsey's not the player that he was four years ago. They they had a rookie left tackle that they abandoned like week two. Like there's so many insane circumstances that Patrick Mahomes just dragged him there. But but again, he's doing it in such a different way than he would have with those like 2018, 2019 teams. And that is like maturity. That's growth. But he's also just like a less honorable and fun player to watch because of that. Or at least a majority of the time.

47:47Derrik Klassen: Very much the old the old basketball player who has like replaced his athleticism with just incredible amounts of guile. Yeah. Even I mean, he still does have the athleticism. Maybe we'll see it more. I do with a better supporting cast. I won't be surprised if we see it more this coming year.

48:05Dave Helman: And that's a good point. Like the honorability stuff can fluctuate. And you mentioned that with Daniel Jones. Like if Daniel Jones, like plays closer to like a three this year with Shane Sykin and a better skill group could totally see that. If Patrick Mahomes starts to play a little bit more like a wild boy again, now that he has some guys who can actually win down the field, wouldn't be surprised at all at that either. It's just that like I would say over the last two years, he's been more in like this middle range. who else do we have in the three tier all right so like we said jared goff patrick mahomes this is where i have justin herbert where herbert is i think he's so he's willing to make aggressive throws and he's willing to throw down the field but there are also times and drives in games where he's a little bit too willing to check down and he's not as willing to create as you would want him to and i think that was less true in 2024 than before but he's still not as unhinged as the guys like Josh Allen and stuff before him.

48:58Dave Helman: So I think Herbert is kind of to the point of the tier, one of the most for better and for worse calculated quarterbacks in the league. And I think that's why he's in tier three. And then the other guys, it's most of the rookies from last year. And I think this is partly because I think they're just too early in their careers for me to like fully place them. So this is where I put Jaden Daniels, Drake May, Caleb Williams, and Michael Penix for a myriad of different reasons. Like Michael Penix is obviously willing to throw down the field a lot. And that sounds like somebody who's very honorable and aggressive.

49:30Dave Helman: He's also a guy who gets the ball out really early and is like pretty quick to check the ball down. And so that's why he like got dragged down a little bit for me.

49:38Derrik Klassen: I mean, I just I don't know that there's enough information on any of those guys. I mean, again, by your by your metrics, Jaden is such a fun player. But having that ace up his sleeve of having better mobility than almost anybody, I could see how that would influence you as well.

49:52Dave Helman: exactly like he's like he's a fantastic player obviously and he's all of the stuff that he does for him works but like by my definition of what I like watching like I would like to see him be a little bit more aggressive with the ball at times and I would like to see him not pull the ripcord on plays and become a scrambler as much as he does and obviously again he's an elite player despite all of that but to like bump up into this like stupid you know little tear that I'm making to get him into like a four, I would like to see him play a little bit more aggressive than he does right now.

50:25Derrik Klassen: I'm thinking about Herbert, too. And much like Aaron Rodgers, it is amazing if you can go through an NFL season only throwing three interceptions and Jim Harbaugh probably freaking loves it. But to throw that few interceptions in a season probably means you are leaning more conservatively in your decision making.

50:46Dave Helman: Exactly. You're kind of inherently shying away from from some of the hard stuff. And like, again, Herbert will make really difficult throws, but he doesn't make as many like. And we'll see if I can fit this type of throws, you know what I mean? Like when he's making a throw, it's pretty calculated in terms of like, I know I have the arm for this and it might look tight at the end, but it's like he's got the velocity for it, but he's not doing that much stuff where when the ball releases, you kind of tense up like when Herbert releases the ball, you're like, it'll probably be fun.

51:13Derrik Klassen: Josh Allen often talks about like the angel and the devil on his shoulder and like knowing which one to listen to. And I feel like it would benefit Justin Herbert to listen to the devil a little bit more often. Not all the time. You don't have to do it all the time. But like a couple of times a game, you got to remember that you're a football cyborg. Yeah, I mean, he's the only guy in the NFL that has like a comparable build to Josh Allen. But you can tell the difference between the two of them immediately. I guess Trevor Lawrence as well. But you get my point.

51:48Dave Helman: But I mean, he's like the perfect example of like the guys who are balanced versus the elite tiers. Like talent wise, Herbert is absolutely up there with the Jordan Lowe's and Matthew Stafford's and Josh Allen's. But he just doesn't he chooses not to play that way, which I think is very fascinating.

52:02Derrik Klassen: Justin, there's still time to change that. There's still time.

52:05Dave Helman: You're still a young man.

52:06Derrik Klassen: All right. We got one more tier to get to. We'll do it on the other side of this break.

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52:41Derrik Klassen: All right, Derek, we have sorted the vast majority of the NFL's meaningful quarterbacks, the established starters, the guys that we've seen a fair amount of football of. We got one left. That's tier two. Just the last step up before the most dishonorable. Let's get into it.

53:00Dave Helman: Yeah, this is this is the last year. And again, there's not as many guys in this tier as some of the other tiers. but tier two to me is guys who you see flashes of the honorable stuff and they'll do some cool stuff every now and then you know maybe they'll make a really aggressive throw or maybe every now and then they'll take a cool shot but they are guys who tend to shy away from that um and tend to make the game a little bit harder on themselves maybe than they should and i think the best example of that and i think he's a good player is kyler murray like kyler you're a kyler fan too i am i i i think he's a good player and i think people gotta call it what it is you can't betray the scale i can't betray the scale and like kyler i think he can play at an mvp level but but part of the reason i think kyler's in this tier is he's a guy who even though he has the arm to make some really talented throws there's just some areas of the field that he's not all that confident throwing like he doesn't throw between the numbers as confidently and as willingly as I would like for some other guys.

54:03It's why the offenses that he's played in can sometimes feel

54:06Dave Helman: a little bit herky jerky and inconsistent because he just doesn't target that area of the field as much. And he's not quite as good at it and doesn't have the understanding of how to access it the way that some of the other guys do. I think another part of why he's kind of in this tier is Kyler Murray will shy away from contact a lot. Like he's he'll hang on to the ball and be creative and become a runner. But I think purely within the pocket, there are a lot of times where he's falling away from throws that he shouldn't and he's kind of shying away from contact and he's getting the ball out so he doesn't get hit he does a little bit more of that than i would like um or or see from even these you know tier three and tier four quarterbacks and then and this last part is a little bit unfair but there is a there's something about the way that he runs as a scrambler that just feels dishonorable it's like the it's like the thing where everyone's like oh he runs around like a toddler like there's just something about it the remote yeah yeah there's something about it that feels wrong and it's like functionally probably not that different than the other guys above him like Jaden Daniels but like watching it just feels more wrong for some reason

55:09Derrik Klassen: I think Kyler might be getting the rawest deal of anybody here because like if you're listening to this if you're listening to this like this is this is all in good fun and it's clearly like this is just what we like to see what you like to see in quarterback play and look he's done an amazing job overcoming it. He was the number one overall pick. He's had success as an NFL player, but Kyler Murray is five, 10, 200 and something pounds. Like you can't play quarterback the way that Derek Klassen prefers to see when you're built like that. I just, I genuinely don't think it's possible between consistently throwing over the middle of the field, consistently standing in the pocket and then, yeah.

55:51Derrik Klassen: And, and, and trying to minimize contact like Kyler Murray better be minimizing contact.

55:56Dave Helman: Exactly. And so like I get it from his perspective. And like if you're going to be on the other end of the spectrum and try to overcompensate for some of this stuff, you kind of end up like Bryce Young. We're like, I respect what Bryce Young is trying to do, but because he's kind of, to me, overcompensating for his lack of physical talent and height and stuff, kind of makes a lot of mistakes because of it. Whereas Kyler doesn't do that.

56:16Derrik Klassen: That is a that is such a good point. And I love watching Bryce Young. So I like where you placed him. But Bryce Young is a guy who probably should be playing tier two honorable football, who is playing tier four. And as much as I like watching him play two or three times per Panthers game, I'm just like, Bryce, you're going to get yourself killed, buddy. Like, what are we doing here?

56:39Dave Helman: It's a lot of like, oh, man, you're going to get yourself killed. Or if you throw that again, that's getting picked off. Like it just he does a lot of that. Whereas when I watch Kyler Murray, a lot of his mistakes are just like he's just doing weird stuff. It's not so much like overcompensating for something. It's just like he'll get outside of the pocket and make a weird decision. Whereas like, yeah, I just so Kyler Murray is he might be getting the rawest deal here because, again, I do think he's a good player. But there's just every now and then you watch him and it's just like, I wish you didn't play that way sometimes.

57:09Derrik Klassen: I just I don't know that he has a choice. And I mean, Bryce Young doesn't have the next level athleticism either. I mean, Bryce Young is not scoring a rushing touchdown from 30, 40 yards out. Kyler Murray can do that. So not only is he not built for this exercise physically, but his his skill set maybe just lends itself to a less honorable style of play. Still very good at doing it, by the way.

57:35Dave Helman: Exactly. He's very good. And like, that's the thing is he's almost, you know, where some of the other guys like the Matthew Staffords and the Josh Allens, because they have the size and have always been able to stand over their linemen and make all of these throws, they've always been willing to try anything. Whereas I think with Kyler Murray, it's like he almost uses his elite physical tools as like a way to circumvent having to play that way. You know what I mean? It's like it's like a it's like a safety net almost for him.

58:00Derrik Klassen: It is. Kyler Murray is the closest I think a real NFL quarterback gets to the way that like you used to play video games, you know, like is the read there? It's not there. All right. I'm getting the hell out of here and you're not going to stop me from picking up yardage. I mean, like, obviously it's not that simple on the field, but it's the closest thing to video game football that I think we have.

58:23Dave Helman: It's the closest you can get while also being like a pro bowl caliber NFL quarterback. It's the closest we can get to that blend. Certainly. Who else is in the tier?

58:33Derrik Klassen: Who else we got?

58:34Dave Helman: Yeah, we've we've got three more and we've got a wildly different qualities here to me. I have Justin Fields in this tier and God bless him I love him but like there is just a Justin Fields is like he holds the ball so it feels like he might be honorable but he's actually not a very aggressive passer like he's a guy who shies away from a lot of windows he's a little bit too I think willing to pull the ripcord at times as well like he's just there's an inconsistency in terms of like what he is actually willing to do that you know I think all the guys in like tier four in tier five are uber confident in their abilities, abilities, whereas I watched Justin Fields and I just don't feel that way.

59:10Dave Helman: And so that to me a little bit bleeds into honorability. And then the last two are Jalen Hurts and Bo Nix. And again, that goes back to the point of like, you can literally win a Super Bowl with a guy who is in tier two. It's just, you know, Jalen Hurts to me is, he again falls into, there's really only a handful of throws that I think he really likes making. I don't think he's a guy who likes holding the ball within the pocket and really making throws from crowded areas. And so those are kind of the two biggest reasons he falls for me.

59:40Derrik Klassen: Bo Nix, I'm curious about just and I think really this applies to like all of the rookies. Again, progress is not linear. We know this. We know, you know, however great you might have been as a rookie is not a guarantee of anything. Bo Nix had a wonderful season. I don't think anybody would argue that it was benefited by the way Sean Payton designed it and called it for him. And so it's not a knock on him. I just I don't know that we've seen the true Bo Nix because it's almost like training wheels the way that it was for him as a rookie. That sounds like a knock. I don't mean it that way. I just think we need more information on how Bo Nix wants to play as a pro.

1:00:21Dave Helman: And that's fair because I put all the other guys in tier three, whereas I think. By the end of their rookie contracts, I think they're all going to be a little bit more spread out than I would have them now. And Bo Nix, for whatever reason, I may be unfairly maligning him from what I thought about him in college, not even just in terms not in terms of quality, right, because he did have a very good rookie season. But even going back to college and then during his rookie season, he just isn't a guy who likes to hold the ball within the pocket very much. And I think he got better at it at the end of last year, but he's not as creative and like willing to slide around the pocket the way that the other guys are and I think some people will point to in terms of aggressiveness some of the throws he did make over the middle like he threw a ton of dig routes to Cortland Sutton last year right but the difference between what he was doing and what I think like Dak Prescott does pretty consistently is Dak will go one two three not even look at the dig he'll just like automatically throw it knowing that it should be there when Bo Nix is throwing the dig it's his first read on the play and he's like waiting for it to come open like that.

1:01:22Dave Helman: It's just a different level of like, OK, it's the same throw on paper and on the chalkboard. But the way that you're getting there is a lot different. And that to me does play into the honorability bit a little bit.

1:01:33Derrik Klassen: Do you think that he has like the skill set to to I mean, and you've said like this can all move and quickly for that matter. But you think he has

1:01:44Dave Helman: the skill set to climb i think he could be a three like his his arm is like at least like what baker's is i think like probably that that level baker probably gets a little bit more miles an hour i think if he had to i think nicks gets a little bit more touch and flexibility but same general range i would be shocked if he i ever put him like tier four or five though um because i've never really and i know i know that sounds weird because obviously auburn bo nicks was a wild boy and was doing a lot of weird stuff it's just that i think i would be with how much success he's had being a little bit more of a conservative and calculated passer with his two years at Oregon and then obviously last year with the Broncos.

1:02:22Dave Helman: I think I would be shocked if he opens himself up that much. But if he gets into tier three and plays a little bit more like a Justin Herbert, I don't think that would be surprising to me at all.

1:02:32Derrik Klassen: I think most people would complain about Jalen Hurts's honorability because he's the face of a play that the league tried to ban. But I assume I assume that your critiques aren't really about the brotherly shove, though. Like those are separate things.

1:02:48Dave Helman: Yeah, those are completely separate things like that to me is almost has nothing to do with Jalen Hurts. Like for me, it is again, there are. And this was the complaint I had with Tua Tungavailoa is like he to a play such a specific mode of offense. And I think that that's true of Jalen Hurts. And I think if we were to rank Russell Wilson, even at his peak, Russell Wilson would have been like a two. and it's for it's for kind of the same reasons where it's like anytime you have the no matter who they put an offensive coordinator ultimately the Eagles offense is going to be what Jalen Hurts is good at which is throwing nine balls it's throwing sail routes it's throwing RPOs and it's using him as a piece in the run game and it's cool that they are consistently good at finding a formula for that you know getting all of the right skill players to do that having the best offensive line but there is just you know again I mentioned it a number of different times flexibility and being able to access every part of the field whenever you want to on your terms, I think matters.

1:03:45Dave Helman: And Hurts to me, like between the numbers, just doesn't do a whole lot of that and never really has.

1:03:51Derrik Klassen: I think Jalen Hurts plays a very specific way and it is clearly very effective. That's the thing. I think you can be good in tier two. Like it's not a bad thing. I mean, clearly, clearly evaluating Jalen Hurts has become like the new flashpoint issue after that Super Bowl run. I'm sure this isn't the last time it'll come up. I don't think it's a knock on the guy to say that you can build a championship team around him, even if he plays like one specific style of football.

1:04:25Dave Helman: Exactly. And like the last thing I would say, too, is with Jalen Hurts specifically is I think pocket like bravery. is a really big thing for me. And I think Jalen Hurts just kind of gets to circumvent that because he's playing with Jordan Mailata and Lane Johnson and for the longest time, Jason Kelsey and the best offensive line coach in the league. Like he's just, they've kind of circumvented that being an issue for him. Whereas like when I think you do see the moments where it crops up, he does kind of struggle with, you know, what he wants to do and be in the pocket sometimes.

1:04:57Derrik Klassen: Don't hate the player, hate the game. That's, that is not Jalen Hurts' problem. It's the slogan for the Eagles. Yeah. Hey, not his problem for at least a few more years. If I had to guess, I believe that wraps it up. One, one that I, I probably just missed it when you rattled him off. Caleb Williams is one of the rookies that's in tier three, correct?

1:05:17Dave Helman: I put him in tier three and I will say, and I think you're going to get to this. He was probably the toughest player for me to put somewhere. I didn't know what to do with him.

1:05:26Derrik Klassen: I don't blame you. I mean, last year was a roller coaster. Robert is probably more qualified to opine about the season that Caleb Williams had, but I think you could classify him as a very honorable player in the way that he's willing to hang in there and trust himself. But obviously, the Bears were such a mess as well. I mean, I think it's a solid call to punt on as many of those rookies as possible. I think if it were my list, I'd probably put Bo Nix there as well, just because I don't want to have to figure it out right now. We can wait and get a little more information.

1:06:02Dave Helman: I probably should have it now. Now I feel like I was being a little bit mean to Nix, but the point about Caleb Williams is great because like the reason I think I wanted to put him in three at least was like he was willing to stand in the pocket and you could tell he was trying to be a pro quarterback, like go one to two to three and hit this backside, you know, throw and really try to play within the pocket. And he was willing to make aggressive throws. but at the same time he was throwing a lot of just like random go balls which to me is like kind of dishonorable it plays into the Aaron Rodgers thing and then also he has a little bit of the Kyler Murray like just the way that you run is a little bit bothersome to me it's effective

1:06:35Derrik Klassen: but it just like it's funny to watch it's very I was gonna say it's very fun because like Caleb Williams much like Kyler Murray he's clearly not as quick but Caleb Williams doesn't always look like he's fully confident of where he's going, let alone the defense. And that can lead to some very entertaining outcomes.

1:06:55Dave Helman: I almost knocked Baker Mayfield for the visual scrambling thing. He does scramble in a way that's like funny too. He almost has a little bit of the toddler's

1:07:02Derrik Klassen: shoulder remote, you know, like I said, Baker, Baker, trying to shimmy past like all pro linebackers is it's high comedy. And the crazy thing is it's effective. Like I'm not trying to knock the guy. It works, but it's very funny to watch. It definitely is. All right. I think that wraps it up. And I want to stress, this is merely a starting point. We have now outlined the honorability index, which I'm really excited about because from now on we can refer back to this. We will, we will change it as we need to. We can move guys up. We can move guys down. I doubt this is the last time we hear about it, but Derek, this was a ton of fun setting up a baseline for the honorability index.

1:07:44Derrik Klassen: Thanks a lot, man.

1:07:45Dave Helman: This was incredibly fun. Hopefully we can revisit this in a year and see where we're at. All right.

1:07:50Derrik Klassen: That does it for today's show. Make sure you stop by tomorrow. Robert, Derek and Beller will have the final mailbag of the off season. Looking forward to that till next time. Thanks again. We'll talk to y 'all soon.

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