The rise of Puka Nacua, Amon-Ra St. Brown and Jaxon Smith-Njigba, with Matt Harmon

0:02Welcome to the athletic football show. I'm Robert Mays really enjoyed the conversation that we're having on today's show. So if you look at the way that wide receiver play has manifested over the first five weeks of the season, and you look at the types of players who have become some of the most productive dominant receivers in the league, they look a little bit different than they used to. Some of this is shifting quarterback situations for stars like Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson. But so far this year, the three receivers who lead the league in total EPA are Puka Nakua, Jackson Smith and Jigga, and I'm on Ross St.

0:35Brown. Those are not the type of guys you typically think are the superstar high level receivers in the league. They're not built like Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, Jamar Chase, Randy Moss. These guys are indicative of the shifting requirements at the position. And I think the changes in which types of receivers have become hyperproductive guys and what the receiver hierarchy looks like says a lot about not only the players, but the way that offenses in the NFL are structured and the way that defenses are structured. and how that marriage and how that push in the pole has kind of come to be in the league in the modern era.

1:10I couldn't think of anybody that I'd rather have this conversation with than Matt Harmon from Yahoo and Reception Perception. Matt obviously does a phenomenal job of tracking receivers, their quality, but also the history of the position and how that has changed over the last decade or so. And really enjoyed digging into this with Matt. Let's get to the conversation right now.

1:34I am very excited about this conversation. It's something that I had been chipping away at just in my head over the first month of the season as we've watched some of the most dynamic, exciting players in the league and try to figure out what they have in common. And so when I floated this idea to our guest today, the fact that he was also similarly enthusiastic about it, considering what he does every single day, let me know I was probably on the right track. So, Matt, why were you excited to have this discussion about the three players that we're going to talk about today? Well, for one, I'm always down to talk about good wide receivers.

2:10It's it's kind of I prefer that as opposed to the alternative. And by the way, I also appreciate topics. It's like, let's talk about the best players in the league as opposed to, you know, who's underperforming and why is that happening? So that is one part of why it's exciting. But also from a big picture perspective, the three players we're talking about today and just kind of the evolving nature of this particular archetype is something that I've been thinking about, not just at the start of this season, but really dating back to the last like two or three years. and just kind of how this type of wide out has really blurred the lines between traditional positional archetypes, like the hierarchy at the position, even to the point that at one point this offseason, specifically with one of the guys, Jackson Smith and Jigler, we're going to talk about and how they're again.

3:01We'll get into it, but how I thought he was going to get lined up in this offense and things of that nature. I was like having a little bit of an existential crisis about how I chart wide receiver alignment and how I've been doing it for like the last 12 years. You know, do I need to change that? Does that sacrifice the historical database? All this type of nerd stuff. So a lot of reasons I'm very excited to have this conversation. So let's just kind of lay out the context before we really dig into it. Obviously, we've been building to this moment. Puka Nakua had the second best yards per route run season since 2015 last year.

3:31It's not as if he's come out of nowhere, but I think it is the change in the hierarchy when you just think about these guys statistically, fantasy production, like all of the ways that we come to understand wide receiver play. So far this season, I think you can make a really solid argument. The three most dangerous productive receivers in the league have been Pukunakua, JSN, and I'm on Ross St. Brown. Just a couple of numbers to throw out there. These guys are top three in the NFL, all from one, two, three in receiving EPA per next gen. They are likely, if you did any rest of season fantasy rankings, the top three receivers in fantasy football.

4:06They are top three in the NFL and EPA per route run. They are top three in the NFL in first downs per route run among players with at least a hundred routes with Armand Ross St. Brown and Puka. They've been hyperproductive guys over the last couple of years, but they've never been at the top of the wide receiver hierarchy, right? They've always been fifth, sixth, seventh, a little bit further down with these like true alien type, like traditionally dominant receiver archetypes just ahead of them. your Jamar Chase's, your Justin Jefferson's. There's probably a reason those guys have slipped this year, quarterback play, all of that.

4:42But I think just the subtle and slight shifts in where these guys stack up to the rest of the guys at their position. And the fact that with JSN and Puka, this isn't just because Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson are falling off. JSN is averaging 4.2 yards per route run through five weeks. Like they're on track for nuclear historic seasons, if this continues. And these guys just don't look like the receivers that typically have nuclear historic seasons. Cooper Cup is the outlier, right? In 2021, Cooper Cup had this sort of season. That was one guy. Now this year, we have three of them doing it at the same time.

5:20And so even if we had little kernels of this starting maybe in like 2020, that's been building over the last four or five years, this feels like the apex of the moment we've arrived at with this type of player. And I mean, a great way of just like a very basic intro way of saying how this is so different is that two of these three guys are day three draft picks. Yes. You know, they're not the monsters from LSU Pukunakua, Amon, Ross St. Brown. You know, the the the freak show technicians coming out of Ohio State like JSN is kind of his own thing. And I think he's more of a like he's a different conversation, I think, than these other two guys, mostly because it's his third season in the NFL.

5:59He kind of came in, I think, a little bit more refined than the other two guys, particularly in terms of how he won against man coverage. Like, again, we will get into all of that. But the other two guys, St. Brown and Puka Nakua. Yeah, they're they're day three draft picks. And to put a finer point on just where I've kind of ranked these guys coming into the year, I have said for like when we did our top 10 receiver show over at Football 301 or, you know, I did my wide receiver. I did a wide receiver draft with like Greg Rosenthal over at NFL Daily. So I have this as like a running doc on my computer about like where I'm ranking these guys, where the tiers are, you know, because it's a frequent question to me.

6:37I thought last season Puka Nakua did graduate into that first tier of NFL receivers, which is the Jamar Chases, previously A.J. Brown, you know, those those type of guys, everybody, Justin Jefferson, the whole crew. I think he graduated into that tier last year, but I probably still would have put him sixth in a tier of six there. And then St. Brown, I think I've always said the last couple of years, he's kind of that first guy in tier two. I do think because he's one of those players that if you look at the course of his reception perception profiles from 2021 to 2024, he has consistently improved in more of the traditional wide receiver one areas while also getting better and better at the stuff that made him great when I I think I've come on the show before and called him Bud Light Cooper Cup which at the time coming in as a prospect is like that's complimentary by the way the guy did have he got drafted the same year the Cooper Cup had that new clear season like that's correct very complimentary yes and with the former Rams quarterback a bunch Rams guys in that front office there in Detroit like I think that was we were on to something with that one in terms of that nickname so but he is he's only gotten better in those areas while also being more of a traditional like a man coverage beater and press coverage beater in like the short and intermediate areas over the last few seasons so you're right like these guys have been building and I think both of them now have pushed into that true first tier of NFL wide receivers which is not just a credit to those guys but it also says a lot about where the league is and where this position is.

8:08And just like a couple more bits of context to talk about maybe why these guys are different compared to the hyperproductive receivers that we typically see over the last four or five years. I think the only other guy that has spent as much time in the slot as Puka and Amon Ross St. Brown have for this year, for example, would be CeeDee Lamb. And maybe we can talk about some of the subtle differences and maybe why CeeDee Lamb was considered a top tier receiver. And these guys, maybe we were a little bit slower to get there. I'd be curious your thoughts on that, but just some numbers to put on it.

8:34Puka is out wide on 53 % of his routes. That's it. He's in the slot 37 % of the time per next gen. I'm on Ross St. Brown in the slot on 45 % of his routes out wide on 49%. So essentially 50, 50. JSN is a different conversation this year. And I think we can talk about again, some of the nuances of this. He's actually been out wide on 75 % of his routes after being a slot player on 75 % of his routes up to this point. But even that's interesting because he was pegged as this slot guy. We were wondering what he could be production wise if he were to move outside. And the fact that now as an outside receiver, and I say outside in quotes, and we'll talk about that a little bit too, because alignment is a very important part of this conversation.

9:16But even that I think contributes to what we're talking about here, where the fact that JSN is having this insane per route production season, and we used to think he was just the slot receiver, but now he's able to survive and thrive in a different way. That feels notable to me. And so there are just so many layers to this where these guys just feel different to the players that we typically see at the top of these rankings at the top of these stats boards 100 and I think with the JSN thing is interesting because if you look at like wide receiver efficiency charts and I put these out sometimes a lot of people do there's usually the last two years 2024 and this season there's typically the puka quadrant like up in the top right where good volume good efficiency like he's up there on an island so far this season it started in the first two weeks that uh zay flowers was actually up there he's come down a little bit and like that some of that is you know not it's a little bit the player he is but also what's going on in baltimore right now um but then jsn is kind of hung out still in that puka quadrant not quite to the absurd per route efficiency numbers uh well the per route like yards per hour and stuff like that but the volume is not quite there the volume is not quite there i mean puka has 50 receptions on the season so far which is just, I mean, it's outrageous.

10:31It gets outrageous. We're 10, 10 catches per game, just off the bus. But I think the reason for Pukinokua, if we want to kind of want to start with him individually, I do, I do. I want to talk about, because I think on a very simple level, this is the question I want to ask you, how is he able to do this? And that may seem like a stupid question, but I think contextualizing that production for a player that doesn't have the same sort of gifts as other players that have these 2000 yard seasons, Calvin Johnson, like it is Cooper cup ish in terms of what he's been able to do with the skillset that he has.

11:03But if you were just trying to narrow down and pin down, how is Puka Nakua able to thrive with this level of production, given some of his limitations physically, where would you start that conversation? Well, I think that's, it is like, where do we start it? Cause there's a lot of different kind of prongs to go off of here. I think starting with the player first, cause I want to give him the lion's share of the credit here for being this much of a badass. And I think you kind of have to go back to just sort of the history of like these big slot archetypes and the power slot players. I would say that the first sort of, again, I want to dramatically say like an existential crisis about wide receiver charting that I had was right around that 2017 season in the 2016, 2017 season in the NFL where, um, to that point it had just been like, okay, press man coverage beaters.

11:55Like that's what, that's what matters. You know, like your success rate versus man and press sort by those two metrics were good. Those are the best receivers in the NFL, the Andre Johnson's, the Julio Jones, you know, all of the names, every AJ, the receivers you built in a lab, the guys that you were just like, I, when I'm picturing a dominant receiver, that's the guy I picture. Correct. So, and those guys would every single season and then other kind of crafty route runners as well. Eventually Devante Adams, Stefan Diggs, those guys were just always top five, every single season in success rate versus man and press and reception perception.

12:26So it's like, I'm chasing that archetype, right? And then it was really that 2000, like I said, 17 draft where Juju Smith Schuster and Cooper cup came in. And when you looked at, and this goes back to like the prospect data that I collected on those guys, they were like sub 35th percentile man and press beaters in college. And I was like, well, all right, I'm not like that. Those guys, they have other interesting traits, but they're like day two draft picks. They both did go on day two and maybe even Cooper cup. I thought just cause he really wasn't a man coverage beater in college. Maybe we're talking about like a day three draft pick.

13:01Well, those guys go to, especially Cooper cup who plays, we used to play for the same team that we're talking about with Puka Nakua. So there's some through line here. These guys would, they went to good coaching staffs who said like, yeah, those guys are over six feet, over 200 pounds, but we're not going to stick them on the outside. We're going to, we're going to put them in the slot. And those guys immediately started becoming super productive receivers. I mean, Juju Smith-Schuster in his second season had some out of some of these same like outrageous efficiency numbers. There were other environmental factors there on Antonio Brown being one of the best receivers in football and drawing coverage, stuff like that.

13:34But he was still in the NFL, not a very good press man coverage route runner, but he was one of the best zone beaters in reception perception from like that moment when he came into the league until he started kind of declining physically, moved to other teams, et cetera. He is what he is now as a player. So that was my first clue that, all right, we need to start prioritizing like this arc type of player. The difference here now in 2025, like all these years later is that I think Pukunakua has from the moment he's came into the league been a better man coverage receiver than that Juju Smith Schuster archetype.

14:12And I would even argue the pre-nuclear season Cooper Cup. He's a better at winning in one-on-one situations, not like ISO receiver on the boundary, running go routes and corner routes and deep outs and stuff like that. But in the ways that they could line him up in condensed formations, you know, get him on some quote easier matchups. I don't say that to be disrespectful, but easier matchups, he can win in those one-on-one situations and be a better quick separator. And he's only, again, improved from year one to year two to year three. So I think it's taking what was an emerging archetype in 17, 18, 19, and finding out how we can weaponize that further with a different type of player who is incredibly powerful.

14:56And then the real thing is the through line between those old guys and this current player and Pukunakua is that he is just fearless going over the middle of the field. I mean, that's really where this conversation should go is that, and I'll point to a player that has struggled in the first month of the season, Brian Thomas Jr. And, you know, everybody, sorry, I'm going all over the place right now, but Brian Thomas Jr. in the first month of the season, everybody's trying to figure out, is it Trevor Lawrence? Is it Shane Waldron sneakily? Is the passing game coordinator? You know, is he the is he the real villain here behind the scenes?

15:32It's like, well, no, Brian Thomas Jr. is not that good of a zone coverage receiver. At least he wasn't as a rookie and he's really struggled in his second season, like learning, like finding the soft spot, sitting down in the right areas and like going over the middle. Those are issues. And while you can say, all right, let's scheme him out of those situations. And they kind of have started to do that a little bit the last couple of weeks. My my contention is, though, if you want to be one of the best receivers in the NFL right now, you've got to do that. Like, again, look at what Puka Nakua is doing.

15:59He is. I come back to a line that Daniel Jeremiah and I talked about on my show a couple of years ago, being grounded through the catch. And Sean McVay has used this when talking about Puka Nakua. You watch him go over the middle, find the hole in zone coverage and attack the football confidently. And that's something he said he wanted to get better at from year one to year two. Told me that in a conversation. So a lot of different factors there. But I think that fearlessness over the middle is kind of where it starts. I love that phrase grounded through the catch, because if again, if I'm trying to figure out how are all these guys similar and they have their differences, but how are these three guys similar?

16:35That's probably the first thing I would say, right? Like there is this, there's a subtlety to separation at the top of routes with all three of them that I think is worth mentioning. Like they snap guys off in ways that creates just late separation. That's very helpful for these quarterbacks. And I think there are similarities between the quarterbacks and how they attack. We can get into some of that, but the grounded through the catch, I think makes perfect sense with Puka. I've joked about this. Every time he catches a pass, it doesn't really matter where he is. He's getting four more yards than he should every single time because he's grounded as he's making those plays, especially over the middle.

17:07And JSN, I think is very similar to that. And I was talking to Sam Darnold this summer and we were just talking about their players and their offense and what he said about JSN. And I've mentioned this before. It's almost like he plays on skates, right? And so when you watch him move, it's like he's roll. It's like he's skating, like rollerblading. His feet are so consistently on the ground and allows him to change direction in such an efficient way. And that continues to happen after the catch. And so that idea of we're moving full speed on a lot of these in breakers and we're so grounded in, in and out of those cuts.

17:40And as we're making these plays on the ball, it just leads to like an efficiency of movement and a yak ability with every single one of these guys that again, if I'm trying to find the through lines between them. I think that's one that's really worth pinning down. Yeah. Um, there's a play, uh, I can't tell you exactly when it was in the game, you know, but, uh, where Pukanukua against the 49ers last week, it's just, you know, 10 to 15 yard dig route. It's what he's, it's like just one after another with him on these plays where the pass is a little above his head, but he fully extends attacks it.

18:14And he's still on his feet at that point. Now, it's because of the throw, he's not able to get yards after the catch. But again, he secures it. It's a clean catch, just gets down. There's no disruption at the catch point. You compare that to some of these guys who still don't extend and confidently attack the football in all areas, but especially working over the middle. I mean, Marvin Harrison Jr., I really like Marvin Harrison. And I think there's going to be a moment for him when all these three guys get away from each other. Kyler, Drew Petsing, and that's coming. Kyler, Drew Petsing and Marvin Harrison.

18:47I think there's gonna be a moment where he has a big season, but that's something that he's got to get better at because he's a great route runner over the middle, a great separator, but I don't think he is as grounded through the catch, nor does he like extend for the football in a way that Puka Nakua does. And to be fair, Puka is a year ahead of him in his NFL experience. And that was, I come back to this conversation I had with Puka at the Superbowl. This was the Vegas Superbowl. So a couple of years ago coming out of his rookie season when he basically said like, yeah, that's something that like I was asking, what do you think you need to do to get better from year one to year two?

19:19When you set a bunch of damn records, his first thing was, yeah, I dropped the football too much going over the middle and working along the boundary. I've got to get better at, at this catch point technique. And I think he, you can see the dividends of that because like, again, just stats wise, these three guys, Pukunakua, Amonra St. Brown, Jackson Smith and Jigba, they all are, they all, they all have 15 or more targets in between the numbers against zone coverage. That's what you need to be to be one of the best receivers in the NFL right now. With Puka, the play that I was going to mention, I think is similar to the one that you talked about with the Niners.

19:53He had a catch against the Colts. He goes on a speed motion from right to left and then runs a big dig off of that speed motion. And Stafford just does what Stafford does, puts it into a little bit of traffic. And Puka slides and snatches it off the ground in the middle of four different guys. even like the fearlessness to do that. And I think that the fearlessness with him going over the middle. And I think that's to me, an underrated part of these guys that I'm not, I don't want to take credit away from the receivers, but I think with these types of players specifically, you really feel how important the quarterback receiver relationship is to their production.

20:29And so with Stafford and Puka, the fact that there's the same level of fearlessness from both the quarterback and the receiver, it leads to so many of these moments that wouldn't happen if either one of them were stepped down in that one specific area. And I think that's, what's so beautiful about the marriage between them. A hundred percent. Uh, I can't remember where I saw it, but I saw somebody doing a breakdown just on, on some Puka stuff and you know, where he was at in zone coverage and just be like, yeah, not a lot of, like not a lot of receivers get open in this area. I'm like, I see a lot of receivers get open in this area.

21:03I don't see a lot of quarterbacks willing to take that throw. And that's something like when I'm trying to divorce the wide receiver, which is what reception perception is like through the charting process, divorce the wide receiver from surrounding variables, like of course, but those surrounding variables matter when it comes to actually putting up production and reaching this ceiling. And I mean, Puka is a great example of this because in the off season in August, we all, I think that that talked into microphones on a near daily basis had to do this constant exercise of what would this look like if Matthew Stafford had to stay in the damn a mortal chamber and didn't play football for the Rams and you know knock on wood through five weeks yeah he's actually had his two biggest passing yard performances with the Rams the last two weeks like he's not only just been out there he's been as productive as ever you kind of had to think about okay well what what would this look like for a guy like Puka Nakua.

21:55Um, if, if Stafford's not out there, if it's Jimmy Garoppolo, who has had his issues thrown over the middle of the field over the course of his NFL career, not that he wouldn't do it and wasn't proficient in it, but in terms of fitting it into these certain windows, that's just a different level than what we're talking about with Stafford. I think these guys and St. Brown too, you know, he's always just played with Jared Goff. So, and, uh, Puka's only ever played with Matthew Stafford. So it is kind of hard to conceptualize what would these guys look like with different quarterbacks, but I do think their roles and the way they're deployed make them pretty quarterback proof from a floor perspective, like in a hypothetical exercise.

22:32And again, I don't want to even put this into the air because it's been so good so far, but in a hypothetical exercise where Stafford's not out there from, uh, for the Rams, you know, I think a guy like Devante Adams, who still for the most part is a perimeter receiver running against a lot more press man coverage, it's going to be harder to get that guy, the football than all the ways that they designed things for Pukunakua. And same thing with Amon Ross St. Brown. Like, yeah, Jared Goff and him have an awesome connection in chemistry. And that's another thing. These guys have had baked in time together that that's what makes this so good.

23:05But if another quarterback had to start a couple of games, I still think you're pepper in St. Brown with, I mean, eight targets a game, bare minimum, because it's a little easier to get that guy, the football with the way they're used. I think the ceiling part of it is what's worth considering when it comes to the quarterback and the Puka moments. There are so many of them where Stafford's just letting the ball rip into windows and with separation that maybe not that many guys would trust with golf and St. Brown. I honestly think it might be more pronounced because of the way that golf plays with so much anticipation.

23:34There are three touchdowns in a two week span when the bear may be a three week span. I watched all the targets that are this morning. And so it's all like cluttered in my brain. but there were two touchdowns that golf through against the bears and one against the Ravens to St. Brown. And I just screenshotted where I'm on Ross St. Brown was when Jared golf decided to throw the ball. And it's just a level of trust that you're not going to get from a lot of quarterbacks. They need a level, a certain level of experience, a certain level of familiarity. And I think that you see that manifest with I'm on Ron Puka certainly.

24:07And I think you're starting to see it a little bit with JSN and Darnold. And I do think that willingness to that, the level of reliability, these guys clearly provide the quarterback and how much the quarterback feels that is gasoline on the fire of their production. And I think you see it with all of them. Yeah, honestly, the Darnold to JSN connection has been one of the biggest pleasant surprises in the NFL, because I think they have not that I was out on. I mean, I wasn't out on JSN this year at all, but, you know, you just wonder what it's going to look like with Darnold because he's had all this time with Gino and whatever.

24:42But I would say that their connection and chemistry is almost as good from a timing perspective as these guys like Stafford and Puka as St. Brown and golf that have years and years together. like these guys have played five football games together and where Darnold is able to just place that ball for JSN is unbelievable so I again one of the biggest pleasant surprises especially under pressure um this is I don't think that I don't think I have this stat up today but at one point uh in the first month of the season Darnold was throwing a JSN on like 40 percent of his routes when he was under pressure just like oh where's that guy's in structure and some of that's out of structure which is very cool to see like a little bit of it is I trust you then the other part of it is just like a playmaking brain, like mind meld between them already.

25:27That is another thing that is a through line between these three players that to me, like, if you don't have this right now, it's just so hard to be a top level wide receiver. When your quarterback is in any level of chaos mode, whether it's, it is his own creation or he's under pressure, you got to uncover, like, and you've got to find a way to get open. And that's something I think JSN has done a really good job of. I know they beat the doors off the Saints, but there was another play in the Saints game where JSN easily just wins a quick slant route against man coverage. Darnold gets pressure and it looks like he's going to get sacked.

26:04It looks like he's going down, but he is able to, because it's a free rusher, he was able to escape and start to get out of the pocket and JSN recognizes it immediately. He is out of there in terms of he's now breaking that thing to the sideline and Darnold great throw by him because he's it's off platform puts it just right in a perfect spot they keep the drive moving and like if you don't have that right now whether it's man coverage zone coverage uh it doesn't matter like you have to figure out a way to uncover to be able to help these guys out because defensive coordinators are too good now in terms of the simulated pressures and stuff like that your quarterback's gonna go into chaos mode at some point and you've got to be able to create outside of structure and so many of these Now want to create outside of structure.

26:45Now St. Brown and golf, it's a little bit different, but it's a little bit different than either of these other guys. And I mean, honestly, the Stafford is a creative thrower in the pocket, but he's not a creation mode guy. But certainly with golf, it's, it's different from a scrambling perspective. That being said, he also just has a quick sense of, all right, I know where this guy is because he is hyper reliable. He's always at the right depth. He's always in tune with the play and he's able to find him there when he's under pressure. that's still a very important quality for him as well. There was a play against the Browns where Jared created a little bit more than you ever see Jared create.

27:19He kind of slides up into the right in the pocket and Amon Ross and Brown ran like a deep out to the right side and he was just sitting there and that's the first place Jared goes. Like to Jared's credit, I think he's uncomfortable in those moments, but he's not panicky in those moments and that is the guy that he's looking for. The last thing I want to talk about with Puka specifically before we dig into a couple of these other guys, to me, if I had to pin down, like what are the two traits that you need as one of these over the middle in breaker zone beater type receivers. You mentioned the fearlessness.

27:46I think that absolutely has to be part of it. And then let's go with some alliteration here. Feel right. You need feel for those spaces as somebody who watches that with the eye that you do. How does that manifest? Like, what are the details and what are the specific elements of a player that has a good feel for those types of routes and those types of voids? A guy like Puka Nakua. I think this is less about the feel of it and more of the physical mechanics of it. But being able to decelerate in your route and slow things down without making it obvious, I think is really critical. You know, especially if you're working against zone coverage and you want that safe, you want that linebacker to not drop back any further because because he sees you come in or anything like that.

28:27That's a big part of it. Or you're getting a safety like a robber that's dropping down or whatever. You want to not make that that deceleration obvious. That's a big part of it. I also think from a field perspective, this is probably where it does make sense to credit the play caller pretty significantly here. I think in all three situations, but certainly in Los Angeles, I mean, Sean McVay does a great job of creating space. I always joke about this on on all of my shows, but there's there's just so many plays for the Rams where it's just this classic Sean McVay bullshit. And I say that lovingly where it's just so many guys control in the flats at all time.

29:04I swear part of me thinks every every offseason, it feels like the Rams talk about we got to play more 12 personnel. We got to play more 12 personnel. And then sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. I kind of think they want those two tight ends out there just to almost I joke about the sacrificial X. Like they want to sacrifice those guys to the flat so that they bring eyes there. And then Pukunokua just runs into those open windows and we keep it moving. I think the the perfect example of that is the tight ends. It's where they're controlling the field and it gets to like structure, play calling, offensive architecture.

29:34The Rams do this constantly where Puka will be, they'll be in like a two by two set. Puka will be the number one outside receiver, but he'll be in a condensed split next to the tight end. The tight end will run like a quick out motion, very quickly become the number one receiver, leave Puka as the number two receiver with a leverage advantage. He'll run an in breaker into all of that space. It'll be a 15 yard gain. They do it four times a game. Like it's just, it's such a consistent part of their offense. And I think that's a good example of exactly what you're saying. where that is the offensive design kind of feeding into the skill set of the player that allows him to produce at this sort of level.

30:11You know, who's desperately trying to do this, too, is New Orleans. They're they're desperately trying to get there. They're one of Spencer Adler's had a really good season, but he's one of the least efficient passers and least least voluminous passers working over this chunk of like the intermediate area of the field. But a lot that gets a lot of targets there just hasn't always been consistent from a production standpoint. But they are, I swear to God, like maybe three times a game. They're doing that same quick motion, but with Brandon Cooks, who, you know, we're talking about Brandon Cooks at this point in his career.

30:40And he's just running like love of the game routes where it's that quick motion. He's outside. A lot of it becomes the slot receiver, which happened so infrequently in the first few years of his career. And he's Cooks is just gassing guys on. And then they're trying to hit these in breakers or even like a deep hook route. So there's a lot of coordinators trying to do this. I just think McVay has done. I mean, because he has the quarterback and the receivers to do it as well, but he is probably the best at creating that space over the middle. All right, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to talk, come back and talk about Amon Ross St.

31:10Brown and how he's similar to Puka, but also a little bit different.

31:16If I was trying to pin down where these guys are most similar, I think some of the things we talked about with like short area quickness, feel for zones, all of that would be in there. But one of the things I come back to with both of them, and this is something that I think we'll probably, we probably should be valuing more and more with receivers in this sort of universe is just pure toughness and what that allows them to do. Right. And so a lot of this Puka stuff, he's getting manufactured screens for him because such a good yards after catch player. He's such a tough player. Amon Ressaint Brown has very similar qualities in that way.

31:47And I think about how often and just how proficient they are when they're used in like these insert plays, right? When they motion into the C gap, it's play action insert. They won the game. The Lions did on that sort of play against the Ravens. The Rams do it at least twice a game with Puka for chunk gains. And those plays, it's smart design and you're putting defenders in conflict. but I think those plays earn more credence because of what these guys are as blockers. And so again, if I'm trying to figure out like where are the through lines between them, what are, what's similar with Amon Ross, St.

32:21Brown and Puka, that's probably the first thing I would point to. Do you think that's fair? Yeah. It's the phrase, no block, no rock is, is it's like a joke, but in, in, in not really though at the same time. And especially in this way, like if you're able to be weaponized as, as the, I mean, I, again, just to come back to Puka for a second, I just tweeted this out a couple of days ago. I was like, there's your leading. And it was just a clip of this play. There's your leading NFL wide receiver by a lot motioning into the backfield to operate as a lead blocker for Kyron Williams, you know? And okay, let me tell you what, I don't see a lot of like Justin Jefferson lead, lead block type stuff.

32:57I don't see a lot of Jamar Chase lead block type stuff happening there in Cincinnati. It's just, it almost takes this type of, I'm glad you brought the phrase toughness, like true grinder players. at the position, it weaponizes them in a way that, yeah, they now begin to earn the right to be these insane, efficient receivers. And I think St. Brown was really doing that first here. He's kind of the guy that, like I said, when he came into the NFL, my prospect comparison for him was Bud Light Cooper Cup. And there were some similar ways. And credit to Cooper Cup because he was the first guy that we would talk about this way.

33:31Yes, 100%. This was a big reason why, because at USC, he was one of these same thing with like the Juju Schuster types, the Cooper cups. Um, I did a whole breakdown on this on YouTube where it's like the sub 35th percentile players in college against man and press, but they show flashes against zone. So we'll take them from the perimeter and kick them inside and let's see what happens. And to St. Brown's credit, like that was what he did as a rookie. Um, but each of the last three seasons, he went from being in the, in his reception perception sample, like a 70.5 % slot player in a year one to then below 50 % in each of the three seasons.

34:07And it's like gone down from 22 to 23 to 24. So I think he's just, he's not just that slot guy anymore, but he is really weaponized in these types of ways that then, okay, yeah, he's, he's got the, he's a credible threat as a blocker. And then when that becomes a pass play, like that guy can just be wide ass open. Um, like it's the check and release stuff. If you show you the ability to do that. That was Cooper cup. I mean, from, from the jump constantly, I remember saying this, I was like, I don't remember any other receiver since I started RP in 2013, 2014. That's, you know, chip in pass rushers and then going out and just being wide open in the flat for chunk gains because there's nobody in the zip code.

34:48And it feels a little bit different now than it was then, but still you see a lot of that from St. Brown at Detroit. And it's funny, he's gotten a bunch of cheap touchdowns this year out of like condensed play action sets inside the five where typically you would be in heavier personnel with the tight end doing that chip release stuff to the flat. But because he is such a willing, incredible blocker, they do it with him all the time. And he just has three walk-in touchdowns because of it. And they're just, that's the area to me where when I watch him, and maybe this is just the scarring from that Bears game earlier this year, his short area change of direction in the red zone specifically is just absolutely wild.

35:24Like he ran like a comeback to the pylon in that game. And you just watch, I mean, just the way that he can just kind of subtly sell certain movements, head, shoulder, and then change direction on a dime. There are just very few players in the league who move like him. Like when you watch them play at home, if you are somebody who has NFL pro or access to all 22, I would encourage you to do this. Go watch some of the catches that I'm on Ross St. Brown has and home games for the lions and watch the pellets on the field at Ford field. they're just it's almost like he's skiing like when he's changing direction you just see these spray of black pellets and like there just aren't that many guys capable of moving like that and the way that he weaponizes it it's absolutely marvelous to watch yeah um he has just gotten better and better every season which i i love that about him like he was not that guy as a rookie when he was when he was really productive in the back half of his rookie season nor was he really that guy at the start of his second season but i think at the end of that second season and then really year three year four into now i think he's just gotten truly and it bears out in the reception perception results like against press coverage he's gotten better and better every single season i think it's that short area change of direction again it's not press coverage in the typical the julio jones the andre johnson types where yeah he's that boundary x receiver but it's no less valuable to an offense that constantly wants to stay on schedule I mean, we talk about these offenses, you know, Houston, Chicago last year.

36:55Obviously, I don't have to tell you like they're constantly behind the sticks. I mean, it's just like it helps to have a really good run game. It also helps to have a receiver. And I think weaponize that receiver, which Houston, I don't think is doing a great job at this right now with Nico Collins. Obviously, very different player. But at the same time, like that quick separator to weaponize them to constantly keep the offense on schedule. Or, yeah, when we get down to the red zone, how do we hide him and how does he do that? But I think the biggest there's two things there. One is like, yeah, the ability to win in the short area.

37:24You're able to create those touchdowns. You're able to burst open at the top of your routes. He's definitely gotten better and better at that every single season. They're not not similar players, but it does remind me a little bit of Stefan Diggs, another day three draft pick that went on to become one of the best receivers in the league. And by the way, is 31 years old and has off a torn ACL, not even 12 months ago. And he's he's back to putting up crazy production again because he's still an elite technician like this game ages really, really well. So we're probably going to be having this conversation about Amara St.

38:01Brown. Hopefully we're still doing this in like eight years from now or something like that. It's just crazy. But the other thing you mentioned, like how they kind of hide him in some of these more heavier, heavier set, like formations and stuff. that also allows them to, especially early in Sam Laporta's career, when he maybe wasn't the same blocker that he is, I think to start the season, um, it allows them to sort of blur those two lines. Um, like I wish, but I wish Buffalo did that more with, um, Dalton Kincaid and Keon Coleman, because I think that would allow them to have Kincaid on the field more who he's not even running like 60 % of the routes, but he's easily their most productive downfield receiver right now.

38:39I think if you, you can kind of blur those lines, but I also don't know if Coleman's like the same level of dog as these two guys, Puka and Amon Ross St. Brown, but it does allow you, if it works to weaponize other players as well. So you mentioned that Amon Ross St. Brown's slot percentage has gone down and down and down over the course of his career. Now we're at essentially like a 50 50 split. And I think this is where we can full JS into this as well. We can talk about what that means in the context of these offenses, right? So the first play, uh, the first, I think was the first play of the game but there's a huge chunk game that i'm on ross and brown gets against the bears and it ultimately he's not the outside receiver but he started as the number one receiver on this play and ends up with tyreek stevenson on him in man coverage so he's the number two receiver but he's acting almost as like the number one outside receiver but he's a yard and a half away from that tackle on in this look so he's in a super condensed split and he runs an in breaker off of play action dust tyreek stevenson and man coverage is a 32 yard game and so these are the moments when these guys are being treated, quote unquote, as outside receivers, when they're really blurring the line of what that actually means.

39:46And so just a few things, I wish that next gen had a stat about this and maybe I'll ask them if they can fold this in. I want a stat about not just whether a receiver's on the line, not just whether he's in the slot or out wide. I want distance from the ball. What is your average distance from the ball as a receiver? And how does that play into the way we think about these guys? And so if you look at just something we can kind of point to that with isolated routes, right? For these three players, I'm on Ross St. Brown has 16 of them in five games. He had 27 of them all of last season. Puka has one this year, one for just for context, Jamar Chase and JJ, the two guys that we typically talk about as these types of receivers, Jamar Chase had 136 of them last season.

40:32Justin Jefferson at 119 Puka has one. So stylistically, that is kind of what we're talking about with these guys, where they are never, almost never the isolated receiver within their offense. And even when they are, like JSN this year has 23 of those plays, more than the other two, that profiles to 78 over the course of an entire season. Still less, almost half of what Jamar Chase was doing, but more than these other guys. But if you look at the way these offenses are constructed, the Seahawks right now are dead last in the width of their average formations. the Lions are 29th the Rams are 27th the Lions and Seahawks are two of the three teams that are in condensed sets on more than 50 percent of their plays the Rams rank dead last in the percentage of their snaps that come in spread formations it's 5.9 percent the league average is 18 and a half percent and so even in the moments where JSN is the isolated receiver in this offense the way that he's aligned is very different than isolated receivers are in traditional offenses.

41:34And so why in your mind has that kind of fueled the way that he's been able to be successful as his role has kind of changed heading into this year? Well, I think from a general archetype perspective, not even just specific to him, it's so much harder to then take that guy out of the game. um uh i did i had a conversation about this with mike evans during the year where cooper cup was um was breaking the breaking all the records you know the 2021 and just talking about how much more difficult it is to to like put a hard double much less even just like shade coverage towards cooper cup versus like what mike evans is doing in the bucks offense and now that to credit to mike evans who's awesome he has evolved his game more and more and more as they've asked him to do different things than just the perimeter big boy X receiver stuff.

42:28But it's when you, if you're just hypothetically, you have that isolated receiver that's on the outside, on the line of scrimmage, you're going to put a press corner on that guy and you're going to put a safety over the top. And you're just taking a lot of space away from that guy. In addition to the space that the, that the sideline creates naturally, even if you're just in single coverage, you're almost creating a double team just because of the space, especially if you don't give that receiver inside leverage and he's already running an out route or a go route or something that's breaking that way it's just really difficult and then again then we're talking about what quarterback wants to take that throw if you condense that player closer to the line of scrimmage you're just giving them more space to work with and then you talk about these guys like Jackson Smith and Jigba I love the Sam Darnold quote you had about him like playing as if he's on skates just such a smooth player and so decisive at the break points against man coverage specifically.

43:22We're talking about a guy, yes, who did run from the slot in at Ohio State and then his first couple of years in the NFL. But he has been a 75 plus percent success rate versus man coverage player as a prospect. And then in year two last year, which is even if he wasn't going to do all this condensed wide receiver stuff, I almost still would have had really not that much concerns about him kicking outside because he shows the skills, even if it's expressed in the slot, he shows the skills that you would need from a deceptive, a deceptive route running standpoint to win at that, to win at the break points that you're going to see more in the man coverage situations.

43:56But that part of it, in addition to then like you're affording that player who has all of those tricks of the trade, more space, like forget about it. You're going to, that's how he's made all these despicable plays on post routes this year where it's just like oh he gets that break point he sells it out and he snaps it in with all the space that you're affording him like you have to respect that space if you're the corner and and the leverage to the outside well then you know mr running routes on skates is now smoothly gliding over the middle and guess what like there's just too much space there and donald has too good of an arm to not connect on those plays i think all three of these guys and i know puka did this where he led he had the highest miles per hour in the gauntlet at the combine and just like this idea of playing faster than their time like all these guys puka and i'm on ross and brown are four six guys jsn's a four or five guy all of them so it's cooper co and so and cooper cups the same way and obviously we knew this when it rams drafted him there was all that talk about the gps data and how it was the 40 time was actually they were cheering when he ran a slow 40 because they knew that it didn't matter like and all these guys play so much faster than their time speed because they never slow down, right?

45:08There's never any hesitation in the ways that they move. And they're so good at templing the way that they move that the lack of high end speed doesn't really show up for any of them. And with JSN specifically, where I think exactly what you're talking about, where it's shown up to me is he's running all of these like very subtle double moves from these condensed alignments where he's selling the out route, just like with one movement of his shoulders before turning it back upfield. And he never slows down while doing that. And he's had like three chunk gains on that exact play at some point over the course of the season.

45:42He had one against the Niners. He had one against the Cardinals. And then he had another one in a double move against the Cardinals on the other side of the field. Like, and that to me is so interesting. Like this idea of JSN now being one of the most productive and dominant downfield receivers in the league is just kind of crazy to watch, but that is what's happened in terms of downfield target percentage. You know, the, the two guys he is between on the percentage of his throws that are vertical routes this year, or the percentage of his plays that are vertical routes are Alec Pearson, DK Metcalf.

46:14And that's like outrageous. And by the way, Alec Pearson, DK Metcalf, like that's the same archetype of player. Um, I actually said about Alec Pierce when he was coming out, I was like, he's the, he was kind of like the bad analysis that people had about DK Metcalf when he can really only run three routes and he's kind of stiff, but it works. That was not really DK Metcalf to start his career, but that is Alec Pierce. And then Jason, like couldn't be any more different than those two guys. It's really speaks to just how varied of a player he's become. And it's actually been really fun as he's moved outside teams.

46:49This, this makes sense. If you're thinking about football in like a reptilian brain sort of way, it's like, okay, somewhat undersized slot receiver now playing outside. What is the correct way to handle this player? Let's press the shit out of him, right? And that is how teams are handling JSN. He has the third highest press rate among players with at least 100 routes in the NFL this year per next gen stats. And he is dusting people. Dusting people. It's just incredible to watch. I mean, like I can't he's really become like a unique proposition at the position. And I think that's why we've been able to see him do what he's done so far this year.

47:27Yeah, like that. When you brought up the CD lamb, he's another one of these guys. It's an inside player, even if he's a tier one receiver, a little bit different than some of these other guys. I think CD lamb could play outside every single snap and he'd be an incredibly productive player. He's just so weaponized as that interior option. And I think the same thing with a guy like Jackson, sit the jig, but like, yeah, I think they're in a different offense that was more spread out. I mean, this is kind of what we saw last year. They were one, I believe if I remember correctly, they were one of the more spread out offenses last year in Seattle.

47:59They were not at all. Could not be more different. Like they, like you, they went from one end of the spectrum to the complete other end of the spectrum this year, structurally. And it's been incredible to watch the benefits of it. Yeah. And I think in that situation, then you see like how, how, when he's so spread out, like what he can do from the slot on, downfield stuff that that was the crazy thing to me is in his first season in seattle is just like so much underneath stuff like this guy can win on corners and outs and digs and posts and we're just not accessing that and it really took last year's coaching staff in seattle it took dk metcalf getting hurt for them to be like what if we made him the primary read from the slot on those plays and uh that we saw the results of that he was the most productive receiver against man coverage from week 10 on last season, 4.56 yards per route run.

48:47And I mean, he's probably going to be up there again this year, but in doing it in a very different way, which is cool to see. Um, so again, it's like that almost makes him offense proof in that way. It's going really well with Clint Kubiak and the boys there in Seattle right now. And I'd like to, I'd like to see that continue forever and ever, but it's, this is the NFL things change and things happen. I think he'd go to basically any offense and thrive in that way. As long as the coordinator finds these different ways to maximize them. We're going to take one more quick break and then we're going to come back and talk about what the next phase of this potentially looks like in the NFL.

49:24I'm going to put you on the spot here. What does this all mean moving forward? Like, what do you think this changes about the way that we potentially scout receivers and who the next group of these guys might be and might look like? Yeah, I think we're already seeing the effects of that in terms of who are the most productive wide outs this year. I mean, we'll get to the college phase of it and like scouting that part of it. Cause I do think it informs like what players we should prioritize and which players we shouldn't actually just jump off on that. Like a Mecca Buka right now is probably another, another guy within this archetype as a prospect.

50:02I kind of compared him to an Amon Ross St. Brown as that guy that that was, that was my player comparison for him was he's a, he could be a dirty work guy that starts off winning against zone coverage. And then eventually maybe we expand the portfolio for him. He is a Mecca. Buka was the number one player in success rate versus zone coverage. If you would put him in last year's class and that's at 24, 2024 class where we loved all those players. Right. And a lot of those guys have gone on to be good, productive pros. He was better than all those guys in terms of his ability to be zone coverage, but he was another guy that only lined up in the slot.

50:38Um, and, and, you know, you kind of want, he doesn't look like Teddero McMillan. I, and I liked McMillan, uh, when I was like, wow, McMillan is, is more of that X prototype. So maybe he, I had them same tier, but maybe he deserves a little bit of a bump. Well, then a Buka goes to one of these offenses that weaponizes their receivers. And I mean, they, especially last year with Cohen, they might have been the number one candidate in terms of who blurs the lines more between what's a slot and what's not, which is why they were able to take another collegiate slot receiver in Jalen McMillan and make him not at the same level at all as what a book is, but a really good, useful player for them in the back half of the season.

51:16So they, they blur those lines. They're, they're keeping some of those same principles alive here with a book. So that's why he has become so productive. I mean, in addition to the fact that he's a freaking awesome player, but because he's of this archetype too, and is fearless over the middle and is running a ton of post routes and a ton of dig routes and is uniquely good against zone coverage for a rookie receiver. That's why he's off to like an, an unprecedented start from a rookie receiver. So even just going back to last year's class, and I think McMillan could grow into being one of these guys as well.

51:46I don't think he just needs to be a pure X or anything, but it Buka has a lot more, um, you know, like base, he's got a lot of like more of a resume doing it. And that's why we're able to see him get off to this incredible start to his rookie season. In addition to the fact that I want to give Baker Mayfield a lot of credit, Baker Mayfield rocks. Like I almost, I almost had him as a, I almost had him as a top 10 quarterback in, in our top 10 quarterback show on three Oh one, the soft season. And I mean, he's playing even better this year. He's just like, he's, he's another one of these guys fearless.

52:13We'll rifle that in against zone coverage and, we'll take the smaller windows. Like to me, I don't care like how open you are. So are you open or not? And Nick Buka is freaking open, man. So like, I just, he's there. He's part of, I think this car, he needs to be part of this conversation too. Cause if you look at some of the like EPA and numbers over the middle, in between the numbers, 10 plus area arts, he's top five in terms of total EPA on those targets right now. And it's pretty easy to see why anybody else come to mind, whether it's prospects that you've heard about, or you've kind of gotten a first glimpse said or guys in the NFL that you think are kind of emblematic of the conversation that we're having here?

52:50I mean, not, not prospects. You haven't started looking at anybody and I know that. God, yeah, no. Um, but I think, uh, Michael Pittman in Indianapolis is kind of cut from this same cloth and he's a guy that I think people have questioned the ceiling of consistently. And, you know, I love Josh Downs and I think Josh Downs was a better player last year. And I, He was the best receiver on the Colts roster last season, I think by a healthy gap. But speaking of healthy, Michael Pittman was not healthy last season, had that back injury, which he's a warrior. He's a Colts lifer like he played through that.

53:24But I just don't think you saw the best version of him. But Michael Pittman for three straight seasons in reception perception was over 74 percent success rate versus man, over 80 percent success rate versus zone and was over 80 percent success rate versus press. Like those are some of the best numbers in the league. Those are very like Keenan Allen esque. And I think Keenan, while not the same power player of the guys that we're talking about here, people forget like how big he big he was. I mean, he is, he's still, still getting it done, but like a big player and just not the same like physical type player.

53:59But again, he's a great guy to bring up in this exact conversation. I think again, maybe Cooper cup is the apex of this before this season, but Keenan Allen is absolutely an example of this sort of guy who was hyper productive when, even if he doesn't look and move like a lot of the top each year receivers, we typically think about. Yeah. And Michael Thomas with the saints too, was kind of like this where it's a lot of people know, obviously with the jokes, there was a lot of in breaking routes and he did it a little more from the X receiver position than the slot receiver, but another bigger guy that won in those ways.

54:32But yeah, I do think that Michael Pittman profiles very similar to like a Keenan Allen in reception perception, like in his in his best seasons from 21 to 23. And he's winning in a lot of these same ways. And he he is giving Daniel Jones probably the best zone beating receiver that he's played with in his life in the NFL. Like Malik neighbors rocks. Malik neighbors is incredible. But Malik neighbors is rookie receiver. Like those guys, they're not all the Mecca book, apparently, or Pukunakua, where they're just these unbelievable zone coverage. players. Pittman's is always in the right place at the right time within the progression of the play.

55:08He settles against zone coverage. He's not quite the same after catch player that a Puka or St. Brown is, but he's certainly among this archetype too, which is why he is another guy that is very productive in the same areas of the field that we're talking about with these players as well. The last thing I'll say to kind of put a bow on all of this is that you just use the afraid zone coverage five times. This is also an expression of what offenses are having to do against modern defenses, right? I think that's why these types of players have become so valuable. A lot of it is offensive structure and the things that we're seeing just from a design perspective and how condensed formations are getting.

55:45If you look at the numbers, like formations have gotten condensed, condensed, condensed compared to what they were 10 years ago. And then the same thing is true with the way the defenses are playing as we've gotten into a more zone heavy, too high umbrella coverage world, how you manipulate and access that space over the middle of the field has become more of a premium and more important and vital to good offense than ever before. And so having these types of players who can thrive in that sort of world, they become more dangerous now and more valuable than they've ever been. And so I think that's a good note on which to end this, is that this isn't just the types of offensive players that we're seeing in the ways that offenses are deploying them.

56:23Some of this is driven by what defenses are doing and what you need to do to hurt those defenses. Yeah, there are guys that are kind of the the very low average depth of target types. The Khalil Shakir is the Rishi Rices where like they are an answer to these two Rishi Rice. I'm really interested to see what he looks like when he comes back this year, because I think he could be of this archetype. It hasn't quite put it all together like some of these other guys, but I do think he is he's in this archetype. And if he improves in the ways that St. Brown did, for example, in terms of winning in the short areas against man coverage and those like just subtleties within the route, he could be within this.

57:05But like those guys have been an answer to. But to me, yeah, in all of this, you know, national media kind of scare fest last season about the two high safeties. Right. And what are we going to do? Two high safeties, ruin, ruin and football. Well, not for the teams that can block it up and have a quarterback that's willing to hang in the pocket and just push that thing over the middle of the field. And like that is the this is what we are talking about here. It is these guys. I think there have been some really positive signs not to play to the play to the crowd here. you know there's been some really positive signs for uh roma dunes and caleb williams in this like talking to rome over the off season and it bears out like within his profile talking to him about like kind of tell tell him some of the details about this like i just great stuff against press man coverage and like he's a great press man coverage receiver but he had to get better from what he was as a rookie against zone and i think we've seen a lot of progress in that and like he's running the routes i think caleb is getting a little bit more comfortable taking those throws So it's just like, yeah, that's how we beat these modern defenses.

58:07It's not like, all right, we got a nickel and dime and, you know, this, that and the other, throw a bunch of screens and, you know, take the cowards way out. I know we got to drop back in the pocket, block it up and launch, launch the dig route, launch the post route. And that is sort of the through line of all these guys we've talked about here. I think that's exactly right. I think that we've seen it over the first five weeks. And the fact that we've arrived in this moment with these types of players, to me, it's been one of the cooler things to watch over the first month and a half or so of the season.

58:32And I think it really does speak to where the NFL is. And I think these three guys specifically are a great example of that. Matt Harmon, please tell the people where they can check out all of the work that you guys are doing over at Yahoo and perception and reception perception. Yeah. Reception perception, the website reception, perception.com. I'm doing in-season charting notebooks. There's a whole tracking tool, which shout out to our web manager, Zach Miller did an incredible job refurbishing that this year. So there's more in season stuff at the site than ever before. So people can check that out.

59:04They can check out the podcast. And of course, yeah, over at Yahoo, Yahoo fantasy forecast and then football three Oh one. Both those shows are great. And I think if you like this conversation, you will like those as well. I know you're a very busy man. So I appreciate you taking the time, buddy. Good to talk with you. Happy to do it. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Matt. Thank you guys for checking this out. We will be back tomorrow with the week six preview with me, Derek and Dave. looking forward to that. Hope you guys are as well. Talk to you very soon.