The second-year players that are X-factors in 2026

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1:21Robert Mays: out almost a dozen guys on this show that for whatever reason, they could swing the unit that they're a part of this season in a manner that's really important for some of these teams. We talked about first round picks, second round picks, guys drafted a little bit deeper into last year's draft. Really enjoyed digging into this conversation with Dave and Derek. Let's get to it right now.

1:51Robert Mays: We spend so much time each year fixating on the rookies and what they're going to do. And then we have an entire rookie class that I just don't think we spend enough time considering each offseason heading into their second year. We did the show last year, and I really liked it. I thought it was a good way to think about second-year players, certain units, how they'll affect them. And so we're going to run it back this season. Today we're going to talk about some second-year guys that we feel like are X factors for their given position group. their given side of the ball and their given team heading into year two.

2:26Robert Mays: So I enjoyed this conversation a year ago. I think that some of the outcomes actually did determine how some of those units felt, Derek. And I think we have a chance to kind of feel that way again with a lot of the players that we're going to talk about today.

2:38Dave Helman: I think absolutely. Like, I remember I want to say last year we brought up Cole Bishop and that ended up being a player who, like, turned it on down the stretch for the Bills last year.

2:47Robert Mays: Chris Jenkins didn't become that guy. I think you felt that for the Bengals defense.

2:53Dave Helman: Yeah, and they maintained being one of the worst defenses in the entire league because, again, their front, like the linebacker play was bad, but the front was not helping them. And that definitely hurt. So I feel like we'll talk about the linebacker play today.

3:03Robert Mays: Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.

3:05Dave Helman: I feel like in this group, I have a good mix of like some big fish, some players I think are good, but maybe can take the next step. And then some players that I don't think are good and need to take the next step where their unit is like completely doomed.

3:19Robert Mays: before we dig into those guys we do have some news that we wanted to hit off the top of the show david it's been a big day a big 24 hours for defensive tackles around the nfl stealing the headlines yesterday we get vitavea requesting a trade from the bucks frustrated with the state of his contract negotiations with them understandably so on the eve of jalen carter breaking the defensive tackle market and getting$38 million a year with$106 million guaranteed on his extension. Where do you want to start the day in defensive tackle news that we've had over the last 24 hours or so?

3:56Derrik Klassen: I don't really think Vita Vea needed to know about the Jalen Carter news to be frustrated and probably put a call into the Bucs front office. But I wouldn't be surprised if that had leaked through agent and player back channels. And he was like, enough is enough because Vita Vea officially makes less than half of the top of the interior defensive line market, which say what you will about Vita. He's he's an older player. I think he's 31 or 32. I'm not saying he should be paid at the top of the defensive tackle market, but it just speaks to how this position has exploded in the last, I would say, two years to where a guy of his ability is making 17, 18 million dollars.

4:39Derrik Klassen: And now you've got Jalen Carter at 38. And the Jeffrey Simmons deal is worth mentioning as well, because that happened during the slower part of the offseason. But I think NFL teams are identifying these sorts of players and what they can mean. I mean, Robert, it was a week ago you were talking to Clayton Adams and he was talking about building your team from the inside out, he thinks, is the most efficient way to win a championships in 2026. I think NFL teams are identifying that in these rare sorts of players who can do that. Jalen Carter, when he's healthy, is that caliber of player. And, you know, this seems like a vote of confidence from the Eagles in the health of his shoulders, if you're willing to pay him this sort of deal.

5:21Derrik Klassen: But I can't say I'm terribly surprised when you see the effect that these sorts of guys can have on game plans and on teams.

5:29Robert Mays: The fact that it hadn't happened yet and that there was some back and forth because Jordan Davis did get paid. Jordan Davis was the first one of those guys to get paid. And I mean, there was chatter this offseason. Do the Eagles want to give him this sort of contract? Is he somebody that might be available via trade for the right price? And so to see him get this number and reset the market in more than one way, which we can talk about, that was my first thought, Dave, is that the Eagles are clearly comfortable with where he's at physically if they're going to give him this sort of deal, which is exciting.

5:59Robert Mays: Like watching him last year was a bummer. You have this guy who was a dominant force for stretches when they won the Super Bowl. And that Bears game just sticks in my mind where you're watching him play. And he's like, he's clearly not right. There's something going on right now. And so for the Eagles to commit to him in this way, I think speaks to how comfortable they are with the health stuff. And if you look at the number, so the defensive tackle market was interesting because you had two guys over the last decade that were in their own zip code in terms of how they were getting paid at that position, Aaron Donald and then Chris Jones, even the Jeffrey Simmons contract, even if the AAV quote unquote reset the position, if you look at it as a percentage of the cap, it was actually considerably less than what Chris Jones got on his most recent extension.

6:40Robert Mays: But this deal for Jalen Carter from both a pure average annual value perspective and percentage of the cap now resets the market for real. Like this actually tops the contract that Chris Jones got and Derek, I think really for the first time becomes a step in the direction of the gap between the top edge rushers and the top defensive tackles, not only shrinking for one outlier player in the way that it has at the position over the last 10 years. This is an actual resetting of the market for more than one guy that we're not treating as an anomaly. Yeah.

7:16Dave Helman: And I think like we've already been heading there but i think obviously seeing what the seahawks did last year where you could argue that like two of the five best players on the roster are the two defensive tackles that they're playing and when the eagles won the super bowl and when the eagles won exactly like the last two teams that have done it are teams that have had stars at defensive tackle and also been deep at defensive tackle in a lot of ways and so these teams being clearly ones and i think i'm glad you brought up the health thing because I think with Jalen Carter it's very easy for when the contract gets like stalled out to be like oh remember some of the pre-draft stuff and all that jazz but like I really do feel like him like both of his shoulders having issues it does feel like they were taking as much time in the offseason being like getting as much information as what that means long term trying to see where he's going to be at heading into camp like it does feel like in hindsight that was all it was and so again I'm glad to see a player like him back on a defense that I've said it before, they might be the best defense in the league if things break right for them.

8:16Derrik Klassen: I just really love that the Eagles continue to buck conventional roster building trends because for most NFL teams, when you do the Jordan Davis deal, it sends out a signal where it's like, whoa, maybe there's not money in the banana stand for Jalen Carter after all. And the Eagles just say, bet, no, we got it. Like we're paying two details.

8:38Robert Mays: There's always money in the Eagles banana stand. When you have mob accountants, there's always money available somewhere. They do this all the time.

8:45Derrik Klassen: Like they did it with, they did it with AJ and Devante. They've got two tackles making crazy money. They just signed two D tackles. I would imagine they're going to do something similar with Quinjon Mitchell and Cooper Dejean when the time comes to extend those guys. Like the typical logic of roster building just doesn't seem to apply to the Philadelphia Eagles. And I admire it deeply.

9:07Robert Mays: We'll see what happens with the Vitavia stuff. I can understand him being frustrated because, like you said, Dave, even without the Jalen Carter contract, he's still making half of what Jeffrey Simmons makes. And I understand they play different positions, and I understand that Vitavia is in his age 31 season. But you look at some of the moves that teams have made for bigger-bodied players, which that is part of the reservation I think I would have if I were the Bucs or anybody else. These guys that are 330, 340, how are they ultimately going to age? but Dexter Lawrence got a$28 million a year extension this off season, if it was only for one year.

9:39Robert Mays: And the guy that I would say, if I were Vito Veya's people who I'd be pointing to as somebody that kept getting paid, even as he went into his thirties as a defensive tackle is Cam Hayward. And I think Cam Hayward has played at a higher level than Vito Veya has, even as he's gotten a little bit deeper into his career. But I think Vito Veya, if you look at the pass rush numbers last year, he was a man alone in terms of how he was affecting the quarterback from that position specifically. It's still not on the same level as the Jeffrey Simmons, Jalen Carter types and how they can affect the game.

10:11Robert Mays: But I still think as both a run defender and is kind of a unique pass rushing entity in the league, Derek, Vitavea would have some real value to a team. I just don't know what the trade compensation would or should look like if you were in the market for his services.

10:26Dave Helman: I don't know either, especially given his age, but I do feel like he's in a good position to be fighting against Tampa for his value there, because the Todd Bowles defense does not work if Vitavia is not there. Like, they are a, we're loading the box, we're defending the run on first down, this thing needs to work. If you pull Vitavia out of that group, I just don't really see how you accomplish that. So he's in a pretty, like, powerful bargaining position, I feel.

10:50Robert Mays: If Dexter Lawrence is worth the 10th overall pick, second and change for Vitavia, Dave?

10:57Derrik Klassen: That's what I said yesterday. Yeah, like, and I think our buddy Ben Solak said he heard something like a two and a five or like a two and throw something in to sweeten the deal. I lean more toward what Derek is saying, though. In the sense that, I mean, we just outlined where defensive tackle salaries have been going and what Vita Veya has meant to the Buccaneers defense over his time there. This is not a guess. The Bucs are not surprised that Vita is dissatisfied with his contract. Like this didn't catch them off guard shot. Like, you know, I know that's shocking that the very, very good D tackle who's entering the end of his deal and is paid less than half of the market might not be satisfied with that.

11:40Derrik Klassen: My question now is like, yeah, is it like, is it worth getting the trade compensation if you're a team that is trying to get over the hump? I mean, we just talked about the Bucks, Todd Bowles in particular, as a team and a coach with a lot at stake. Like, what are you accomplishing by trading Vita Veo away? And the other news coming out of Tampa today from the wonderful beat writers down there is that it's over with Baker Mayfield as far as preseason negotiations. Like, it sounds like he's going to play out this deal and they'll figure it out depending on how the year goes. So if you're no longer worried about making that make sense right now, maybe you just do some sort of extension with Vita and kind of sweep this under the rug before the season starts.

12:22Derrik Klassen: I don't think that would be terribly surprising.

12:24Robert Mays: go the other way on it. I think because you're not sure what the quarterback situation is going to look like, you're actually set up to kind of reset this thing and get a little bit younger next year and maintain a bunch of flexibility if you want to. Because we talked about this when we were talking about Todd Bowles. I think that Jason Light and Todd Bowles are in different positions right now. I think Jason Light is probably in a spot where if he wanted to say, hey, we're not going to overextend ourselves here. Like we aren't at a point where we should be leveraging our future to maximize this year based on the current roster.

12:58Robert Mays: I mean, you look at how young they are at some of these positions, even at positions of strength. Like their offensive line is a lot of guys that are under 30. Their secondary is completely reset with young players. They've got a decent amount of young guys on the defensive line now after kind of resetting that group and drafting a couple guys there. I think that this team is potentially in a place to have a soft reset after this season if things don't go well. And if you start committing big, big money to 31-year-old defensive tackles, that gets harder to do. Does it cut your legs off and muddied you a little bit for this year?

13:30Robert Mays: Maybe. But I don't think Jason Light necessarily needs to be in a position where he's saying, I have to do everything I can to maximize the 2026 season. I don't think he's in that sort of spot.

13:43Derrik Klassen: the other part and i completely hear where you're coming from and i guess maybe something that could be coloring the bucks decision making is they know everything you just said and are taking into taking it into account and everything we just said about vita remember if a team wants to trade for him so let's just say it's a two and a five you're giving that up and then paying vita a contract that's going to make him happy in his age 31 season. And mind you, we're on the cusp of the season. Like the draft is done. Teams have addressed this in the ways that they feel comfortable doing so. I know trades happen in the preseason on a somewhat regular basis.

14:20Derrik Klassen: I'm not saying it's impossible, but maybe the Bucs did some calculus there and said, ah, we feel good about being able to retain this guy because there just might not be that much demand for a 31-year-old defensive tackle. And if there is, then we'll get something for it.

14:35Robert Mays: $17 million base salary, which like you just said, teams, their accounting and their finances and how they were going to account, like allocate those resources, that's pretty much done. And so that's a lot of money to take on at this stage if you were trying to trade for a player that you weren't planning on having. And so it does seem like he'll probably stay in Tampa this year, even if they figure out a contractor, they don't. But I can understand from his perspective why he's frustrated. I can also understand from the Bucs perspective. saying, we'll wait to see what sort of market emerges for you.

15:05Robert Mays: Because I wonder at this stage who can actually absorb something like that. If you guys want to, like Dave alluded to, talk about the Baker Mayfield situation, he's not going to get that extension heading into the season. We talked a lot about Baker Mayfield on yesterday's Most at Stake show. Everything said on that show holds. He didn't get the deal, and so now he's probably going to be a free agent. So I think you can make an argument that it's even more true now that Baker's not going to get that deal that he maybe has more at stake than anybody in the NFL this year. So go check out that discussion if you want some Baker Mayfield thoughts as we as that we get some clarity on what that contract situation looks like.

15:42Robert Mays: All right, let's get into this. Let's talk about some second year X factor players. Derek, I'm curious who you want to start with. Who's the first guy on your list that you wanted to break down among the second year guys?

15:55Dave Helman: like I said I've got a good mix of players here but I want to talk about a player that I think is good and I'm excited to talk about him and that's Jared Wilson of the New England Patriots moving from guard to center now I think with some of these players the uncertainty is like can they play I don't really think there's uncertainty there with Jared Wilson he was really good last year at guard and I think good in a lot of ways like I don't think that he's a like mall you just completely move you off the ball sort of player but he has NFL strength he moves exceptionally well I think at the second level and I think when you watch his eyes like in pass protection he does such a good job of just always being aware of stuff like if somebody is sitting in front of him in like a mug look like a linebacker and drops out he's immediately like eyes to the next guy and looking to help or if he's just doing like an easy double team with the center he's always eyes outside making sure that if somebody loops back in he's ready to help like he just does a really good job of always finding work which is why I kind of believe that him moving to center where a big part of that is like it is mental it is your eyes it is being able to move in space I think he's going to handle that I just think that this New England system and the way that the offensive line is going to have to work I think if he's an upgrade even over what Garrett Bradbury was from them last year being just like a solid functional center I do think that that can kind of like turbo charge a little bit what this offense looks like you saying

17:15Robert Mays: that he's not like a mover type of play well he was a center right I mean he's he has a center by that's the position he was supposed to play but he's still so much bigger than garrett bradbury was that you are getting bigger at the position by moving him over to center and that offensive line in general you know we're going to talk so much about how reshaped that receiver core is with romeo dobbs in there now with aj brown in there now they're going to have two at least two new starters along the offensive line when it comes to the position those guys are going to be playing and then if morgan moses gets hurt at any point or gets dinged up kill lohm is sitting there and so there is a decent chance we see three new guys in three new spots for new england's offensive line this year and i just think for a team that went to the super bowl last year and won the afc there are so many new considerations about what the personnel is going to look like on that offense and jared wilson is a very good example of it and i think too now an interesting

18:09Dave Helman: part of and i think that they'll be able to handle this by the way but mentally you're going into now a Josh McDaniels offense, which asks a lot of players, and you have a third-year quarterback and a second-year center. And I think part of the value in having Garrett Bradbury last year, even if he's not doing everything for the quarterback or whatever, just having a veteran at that spot helps you. And so I do now, I think that's really the only question I have here. In terms of the physical, can he move? Can he play the position? Can he do all these blocks? I have zero questions about Jared Wilson.

18:38Dave Helman: It's about what is it going to look like mentally in a very taxing offense. And so again, I think he's going to handle it, but I do think that that is a slight change from what we got from last year's offense, potentially. That's a quarterback show, baby. It is. He does a lot of offense year three.

18:53Robert Mays: That's I think that's there's it's less to worry about in this offense than it might be in others, because this is really one of the last systems where the quarterback is in charge of everything. It's all on the quarterback. He gets to make every check, every every point, all of that stuff. And so the quarterback going from year two to year three and year one to year two of this system. I think this is one of the rare cases in the NFL right now where the center actually gets a lot taken off of his mental plate. And in this specific scenario, I think that's a good thing.

19:22Derrik Klassen: Probably wouldn't have started here with my guys, but I'll just throw it in here because all of a sudden I'm a lot more hype about the Patriots ecosystem than I might've been just hearing the totality of Derek just outlined that really excellently. you remember that Caleb Lomu is there and can potentially play some sort of role, even if he's not a starter. And then a guy that I wanted to highlight is Will Campbell. I know that's an obvious place to go because he was a top five pick, but, and Derek, you can vouch for this. I was, I was pretty down on my guy, Will, as a prospect going into the NFL.

19:59Derrik Klassen: I do think people have course corrected to just thinking he's a trash football player. And I think that's, that's a little extreme.

20:07Dave Helman: It's a classic case of when a team makes a deep run in the playoffs and like screw it up. The only thing that you remember is them screwing it up in the play. Like the Texans, like all anybody remembers is what CJ Stroud did in the playoffs. All anybody remembers is what Will Campbell and Drake May did in the playoffs.

20:21Derrik Klassen: Will Campbell surrendered per PFF 42 % of his pressures on the year and four of the nine sacks that he allowed on the year in those playoff games. That's obviously a problem, but we talked about it on a previous show. You were going against Houston, Denver, and Seattle. And by the way, Will Campbell sprained his MCL in like December. It was bad enough to go on IR, and all of that happens coming off of an injury. He's got a lot of room to grow. I'm not saying he's going to be an all-pro in year two, but I think the backlash is a little intense relative to what his rookie season actually looked like.

20:59Derrik Klassen: And Patriot fans should have optimism that he's going to be a much better year two player, especially with AVT there. And if Jared Wilson plays the way you're outlining that he could at guard, I mean, you should be optimistic that this could be a pretty kick-ass offensive line across the board.

21:16Robert Mays: Almost thought about Will Campbell as is one of the guys I wanted to talk about. But again, as a top five pick, it's like, I want to talk about some guys that maybe, or we didn't talk as much about, but he's the good choice. Like how he plays this year and whether it looks like an improvement from last year or whether it looks like an extension of the playoffs, that could be the thing that swings how good the Patriots offense feels this season. So I'm totally on board with that. I think it's a really good thing to bring up. You know, we had it's one of the reasons I kind of love modern sports media is that there are so many people who can kind of add to the discourse in a positive way.

21:51Robert Mays: It also exists on the other side more often than not. but when the Will Campbell stuff was happening in the playoffs, you had so many guys who played offensive line in the league get into the conversation about what actually was going on. They're like, this is not an arm length thing. This is a technique thing. These are things that he just needs to clean up, and so whether he can clean some of that stuff up coming into this season healthy, I think it's a really good thing to point out, Dave, so I'm glad that you mentioned him. Let's talk about the guy I sort of alluded to at the beginning. I'm going with, you pick your Bengals second-year linebacker.

22:23Robert Mays: I'll go with Demetrius Knight because he was the higher, higher drafted player. But there's justifiably, I think people are looking at all the moves the Bengals made this offseason. Dexter Lawrence, multiple big free agent acquisitions and saying, all right, here we go. Like this is time for this group to take a step forward. And I think that there's reason to believe that can happen. DJ Turner played really well last year at corner. You know, Dax Hill had been moved around a ton, but I think him staying healthy and kind of settling into that outside corner spot, along with adding Brian Cook, all the things they did along the defensive line.

22:57Robert Mays: There's plenty of reason to believe that this group will be significantly better than it was a year ago. if the linebacker play from both of those guys does not take a step forward and it looks close to what it did last year even marginally close to what it did last year Derek that could be enough to sink this unit when it comes to them actually achieving what their goals are for this year we could be sitting there in December and January if the Bengals on a last place schedule sneak into the playoffs and be saying these teams are just going to pick on those players like when you get to the big games, when you get to January, your weaknesses are as important as your strengths.

23:36Robert Mays: And I think that is the position group on this team where they did nothing to upgrade at this offseason. They're rolling with those guys again. And what their development looks like, in my opinion, is going to go a long way in determining how we feel about this group overall when we get to the most important stretches of the season.

23:52Dave Helman: It will, because like you said, the secondary, I think, is talented. And you can just tell yourself the story that if the front is better, that's going to help them play better. And I think it's easy to tell yourself the story that the front is going to be better because they've added a bunch of different pieces. And so, but the linebacker core, like it's, they're running it back with these two young guys. And like, I think I would probably lean more towards pinning this on Demetrius Knight needing to take a step. I don't think I would say that Barrett Carter was good last year, but I did like a little bit of like a rookie review.

24:19Dave Helman: He was like a replacement level linebacker, which given that nobody else on the defense was that good, that was like, it still looks pretty bad. but he at least like gives you some functional snaps I think especially in run defense right now Demetrius Knight it just head was spinning I thought um in almost every way he looked a little bit better down the stretch but very clearly a player I think early on that unless he was able to wield his physical tools immediately and like in in a very streamlined way like they're sending him on blitzes or they're putting him on the edge to set the edge or they're putting him in like a choke front in front of the tight end and just like jamming him up the seam he kind of struggled a little bit but you just hope that year two in the same system obviously now playing behind a front that should make the reads a little bit cleaner for him because I'll say that for him too like him and Carter sometimes maybe not confident in what they're triggering on well yeah like I don't think they could trust that the guys in front of them were necessarily going to be where they needed to be and so if that can get a little bit better you can sell yourself the story

25:17Robert Mays: that those guys might take a step love you framing it that way I was going back I went back and to watch some games in the second half of the season this morning because my at the exact same thought was like how much better was it down the stretch did we see some steps from him the answer is sort of not really i'm going back and watching the bills game which is in the second half of the season and you see him just again feeling a little bit unsettled and there was one play that sticks out and said it's exactly what you're talking about where he is responsible for the play side b gap where there's an and there's a nose to his side in the a gap their nose gets moved so much that where the A and B gap actually are becomes so muddied that it's hard for him to know exactly where he's supposed to fill.

25:58Robert Mays: And so he picks the wrong one. James Cook hits it into the B gap. It's like a 10-yard gain. It's like, well, yes, the linebacker makes the wrong decision on that play. That's not the gap he's responsible for. But the gap he's responsible for ceased to exist because of what happened to the defensive tackle on that play. And so it all plays into each other. But at the end of the day, I think it's still pretty safe to say that those two guys need to be better than they were last year for us to feel good about where the Bengals defense is by the end of the season.

26:27Derrik Klassen: Demetrius Knight and Barrett Carter are the essence of what makes training camp content so good or preseason content so good because you could come down on it on the side of, well, the Bengals added so much to their defense. They brought in Dexter Lawrence. They signed Brian Cook, Boye Mafé. They upgraded everything in front of them. And I think it's worth arguing they upgraded the stuff behind him. I mean, hopefully with better secondary play, mistakes that your linebackers make might not be amplified. Like maybe you give up a 12-yard explosive instead of a 65-yard touchdown with better safety play behind you.

27:05Derrik Klassen: And you say, hey.

27:05Robert Mays: That's the whole reason Brian Cook is there, by the way.

27:08Derrik Klassen: Yeah, exactly.

27:08Robert Mays: Is to turn the 12-yard gains into six-yard gains.

27:14Derrik Klassen: So it's perfectly understandable if you're like, we just need these two guys to raise their level of play with a better cast around them. And we think that they can do that. And clearly the Bengals do because they did nothing at linebacker. They're just going with these guys. Al golden was speaking very complimentary of them sometime within the last week or on the flip side, you could say the Bengals did nothing to one of the worst linebacker rooms in the NFL last year. What the hell are we doing? And somebody has to be right. I can't wait to find out who, but they were on my list as well.

27:47Robert Mays: In fairness to both of those guys, this is a famously difficult position to play early in your career. The development curve and just the learning curve at that spot specifically for young players is famously high, is famously hard. So them looking like more put-together, settled versions of themselves this year, I'm not ruling that out whatsoever. But I think that happening is really important overall for this Bengals defense.

28:17Derrik Klassen: Do you think if they're just guys and not special, is that good enough? Great. Them just being guys would be amazing.

28:26Robert Mays: Just stop ruining plays. This to me is far more about the floor than it is the ceiling. Like this is solely about the floor. If you can get to a certain acceptable level of play at that position. And again, if we get, we've done a lot of this over the last couple days, but I think it can be useful framing. If we get to a place where this is a playoff team, they're playing against, who do I want to piss off by saying they're going to be a playoff team? They're playing against the Chiefs on wild card weekend, right? Let's just throw that out there. Is Andy Reid and that offensive staff going into that first day of meetings being like, 44 is circled?

29:07Robert Mays: Like, that is the guy I am circling. If that's not happening, win. that that's like a perfectly fine place to land if you're the bengals defense i've been trying to figure out who's going to be mad that i put the chiefs in the playoffs over some other team i feel like i on either end of saying stuff on the chiefs you're going to make people mad so that's right i feel like it was the seat it was the safest choice all right let's take our first quick break and then come back and talk about a few more of these guys

29:36Derrik Klassen: future readying your tech stack software define it to refine and redefine with all systems at hand you update anything and everything from wherever you are transform the everyday with c-mix

29:56all right derek you're up again buddy who is the second player on your second year players list

30:02Robert Mays: that you wanted to talk about?

30:04Dave Helman: So I'm going to go more in the direction, kind of like you just did with the Bengals guys, of a player who I think struggled a little bit last year and I think really needs to step up. And that's going to be Anthony Belton of the Green Bay Packers. He played, he was natively a tackle in college and then ended up playing guard for them last year. And where I want to give him a little bit of grace, I think he started in week 13 or maybe 12 was his first start. They were like not repping him at guard. he he like walked into that week and started at guard and so like he I don't think was really ready for it and I think you clearly saw that and he did look a little bit later uh he looked a little bit better later in the season just eyes got a little bit cleaner you could see in the run game he was a little bit smoother but I think generally when you watch him part of why he had to move from tackle to guard or at least I think a lot of people thought he was going to coming out of college he's a bigger guy you see some of the heavy feet issues some of the hands are a little bit wide in the run game and he doesn't always he's not able to like really bend at the hips and the knees and really get under people and so he's got this size and the strength but isn't always able to weaponize it and so I just think that there's a lot of little mechanical things that he needs to iron out in his game to really weaponize what he has in terms of strength and power and I think again for a Green Bay offensive line that was not that good last year and is mostly running it back outside of just shuffling a couple of the guys around a player like him really needs to step up, I think.

31:31Robert Mays: And I think another point in his defense, I'm pretty sure that Sean Ryan was playing for a couple games at center before Anthony Belton got put into the starting lineup, but it wasn't a lot of games. Like Sean Ryan was still pretty new to being their starting center when Anthony Belton got put in there. Belton's first game, I think, might've been the Detroit game. And I think Sean Ryan had played a couple games before that. And so you've got an entire new interior, including a center who hasn't taken a lot of wide reps at that position in the NFL. So there was just a lot of change midstream for that unit.

32:05Robert Mays: Derek, you and I talked about this group when we were going over the supporting casts. And I will fully admit that I probably waved it away a little bit too quickly just because we have so much evidence. And this is where the offensive line rankings and how you feel about offensive lines is difficult. I was talking to Brandon Thorne a lot about this over the last couple of weeks, he put out his all 32 ranking on establish the run, which he does every single year. And it's weighted toward pass protection. And it's supposed to be like scheme agnostic. Like if we just try to remove how easy the offense makes it for these players, what is the offensive line?

32:46Robert Mays: And for the bank, for the Packers specifically, if you just do it in those terms, it's a group that you should be really worried about. but so often that scheme does enough to get that group to a place where it's like, they'll be fine. Like they will, you can survive with this group. And I think that's why I treated it the way that I did in the moment. But if you're trying to isolate the talent itself, they are in a more precarious spot than they have been in a very long time. And I think guys like Belton that could go either way, going the right way, that's going to go. That's going to be really important.

33:21Robert Mays: And like how this ends up shaking out in part, because even if the scheme has done a great job of providing a floor for a pass protection group in Green Bay consistently, their inability to establish themselves on the ground last year, I think is one of the reasons that offense felt as volatile as it did. And so that, at a certain point, like the scheme can do some lifting there. It's not going to do as much lifting as it is lifting the floor of the pass protection of that group overall. And so we hadn't talked about it since we had that conversation, and I've been thinking a lot about it. So I wanted to at least bring it up again as to why I was talking about it in those terms when we hit it a couple months ago.

34:01Derrik Klassen: This is the least willing I can remember being to just give the Packers offensive line the benefit of the doubt. And I know Jordan Morgan doesn't qualify for this exercise, but how he does and how Anthony Belton do could go a long way toward proving that they do or don't deserve that benefit of the doubt.

34:20Robert Mays: and they should have made jordan morgan an honorable second year player just for this

34:24Dave Helman: just for this discussion right he would have been like the perfect make a little exception for uh because yeah like you've got him they really need to work out uh belton like we've mentioned and then like i think sean ryan has been good for the packers off the bench the last couple of years being a good player off the bench is different than being like a good week one starter type and so i think even that like you need to see a little bit more from him um to really make this all worthwhile and so it just I think I mostly agree that like in pass protection the like LeFleur is going to scheme it up like I was obviously watching some of their offense in preparation for this watching Belton and some of the stuff LeFleur does is like it was a reminder that he's really really good at this but the run game is a little bit more like you kind of got to have the dudes or you don't and I think right now I'm just a little bit worried whether or not they do.

35:11Robert Mays: It's funny because I think some people look at the run pass splits that we get from the Packers consistently year over year where they are this run-heavy team. And they treat it as an indictment of Jordan Love. And I actually think it's more an indictment of the offensive line talent. Yeah. Yes, they need to be able to protect them with running. Yes. Yes. You're playing that way in order to insulate them from a bunch of pure past situations. You want to be this under-center, run-heavy play-action team because it lifts the floor of that group and just masks the issues that they have there. I think that's we haven't really discussed the Packers offensive line as an Achilles heel at all, even when there have been questions about how much high end talent that they have because the scheme papers over so much of it.

35:57Robert Mays: And I think the scheme papers over so much of it because of how it's structured. I think it says way more about us making sure we can get by with whoever's playing up front than it does about how we feel about the capabilities of the quarterback. Dave, who's your next one here?

36:12Derrik Klassen: I'm ready to get dog cussed for finding a year two X factor for a team that just fricking doesn't need it. I don't care because when we talk about the Rams tight ends, we think about them as a monolith, you know, and, and understandably. So they had four last year. They had three that cost that caught like 25 plus balls. And then they drafted Max Claire, by the way. so like it's easy to just to convey your belt lump the ram tight end room as as just this this monolith good room of tight ends but what if terrence ferguson unlocks a little bit more as what i think is the most unique skill set in that room like if you're talking about guys who can become like an explosive element of your offense i would that's why the rams drafted him.

37:06Derrik Klassen: And that's what he brings. And I think you saw a little bit of that. I know that, I mean, the guy only caught 11 passes last year, but, uh, what he averaged 9.2 yards per target as a rookie, which was top 10 among tight ends. Like when the Rams went to him, they went to him as a 16, 20 plus yard field yards, downfield kind of guy. And that was as a rookie, obviously opportunity Unity is going to be a big problem with this because they do have so many capable tight ends. But Terrence Ferguson is probably your best bet to become basically wide receiver three in that offense. And if he does, it could be really, really fun.

37:47Derrik Klassen: Not that the Rams need the help, but I would enjoy watching it.

37:50Robert Mays: Love this on so many different levels. One. Yeah, they don't need the help in the sense that they were the best offense in the league last year. This is how you stay the best offense in the league. Like, you stave off regression by becoming a slightly different version of yourself year over year, where you have guys that, you know, rise and fall in terms of their overall importance to who you are defensively. That was a Freudian slip. The staving off regression is because I'm thinking about defense more often than offense. But you have to iterate. You have to change. It has to feel slightly different for X, Y, and Z reasons for you to stay good on either side of the ball in the NFL.

38:28Robert Mays: And so I absolutely love this. I asked somebody in LA yesterday, I was with the Rams yesterday. All right, give me a couple guys where even if a lot of the ideas on the offense are going to stay the same, it's about tinkering more than it is about full-scale evolution. Who are you turning up the volume on from last year? That is, that we're going to just feel a little bit more in terms of how central they are to the plan. First name, Terrence Ferguson. Second name, Blake Corum. Those are the two guys where I think both of those guys, and why I really like this is that the Rams have been consistently explosive as an offense without a lot of speed.

39:05Robert Mays: You know, their speed that they've had over the last few years has mostly been like, we're going to sprinkle in a 2-2 Atwell every once in a while on some of these like design shot plays. It's more about space creation than it is about playmaking with our fast players. Coram and Ferguson are explosive players compared to the guys who have filled those roles previously. And so that's why the idea of an offense where they are more central figures than they were last year. To me, that's a cool wrinkle when you think about why the Rams might feel a little bit different this season.

39:39Derrik Klassen: He only caught 11 passes last year, which I like I knew that he didn't have this crazy big role, but I would have I don't know. I would have guessed it was more because that athleticism gives him such an explosive element. And when he did make a play, like I said, it was usually an explosive. You know, the big touchdown he had against the Jags comes to mind when I think about the season that he had. Or, you know, I went back and watched some. I went back and watched all of his receptions today because there's only 11 of them. It's not going to take you three minutes. He's the guy that you're going to flex out wide to, you know, go in the slot against the safety and posterize somebody 25 yards downfield.

40:19Derrik Klassen: seven of his 11 catches came 16 plus yards downfield. The rest of the Rams tight end. Yeah. And, and the rest of their tight ends combined for eight of those, you know, like think about Higby and Parkinson and Davis Allen. Like those guys are doing the vast majority of their work, six, seven yards and in for the most part. And so to have this guy that can legitimately stretch the field. And by the way, you've got two receivers to take all of the attention off of him. I'm very encouraged to hear that you heard that, Robert, because it makes a lot of sense if they dial him up and he has a much larger role.

40:56Dave Helman: I also love the Terrence Ferguson shout here. Like, I mean, I just thought he was like an awesome player coming out of college and obviously didn't get used a ton last year, but it's a really hard offense. And they had a number of other valuable tight ends, like worthwhile tight ends anyway. So they didn't necessarily need to force him into it. But I think part of why it's so exciting is one, like you mentioned, he has a very unique skill set for tight end in terms of like, there's just not that many guys who can run like that. Like he can actually separate from you on like deep crossers and seam routes and stuff like that.

41:25Dave Helman: And I think the seam ball specifically, Stafford, one of his prettiest throws in the bag is what he does down the seam. And I think him, Terrence Ferguson, being able to potentially unlock that a little bit more or at least like make teams respect that in a different way, that does feel like the way that you start to, again, it's just these minor shifts of like, hey, defenses maybe want to play slightly different coverages against us because we're scared of this now. And I do think that that's how you stay on top.

41:53Robert Mays: All right, Derek mentioned a Packer. Let's do another one. I think you can make an argument that the Packers have two second-year X factors on their offense. You have one along the offensive line. We have to talk about Matthew Golden. We didn't really talk about him in the breakout player show, but Matthew Golden is going from a rotational piece last year to now being, hey, when we're in 11 personnel, he is – I was going to say, the most important piece among the receiving core. Here's what I mean by that. I think that Christian Watson was really good last year, and I think that Jaden Reed is very good for the role that he plays.

42:30Robert Mays: But when you look at what Romeo Dobbs did for the Packers' offense last season, Romeo Dobbs filled the role last year for the Packers that the Packers drafted Matthew Golden to fill. This was a team in 2024 that really struggled when teams played man coverage against them. They just did not have a man coverage separator. And Dobbs was so good in that role last year that they went from being one of the worst teams in the league against man coverage to one of the best teams in the league against man coverage. Well, now, if you remove Dobbs, you still need somebody to fill that role and provide that skill set within the offense in order for all the other pieces to sing together.

43:07Robert Mays: And Matthew Golden becomes that player. And so if he can give you something similar, again, in the one-on-one separator world to what Dobbs did get last year, plus the fact that you have a guy who runs in the four twos. I just think that he is such a central piece to the Packers offense coming together all across the board in a way that isn't very normal for a guy who caught how many balls last year. It's a unique situation when you think about how central he is compared to a guy who caught 29 passes as a rookie.

43:40Dave Helman: Yeah, he's replacing a huge role and just like a bunch of targets in general because obviously like you know wicks is out of the building now like there's just a lot more targets to go around and i think that golden is obviously going to have to step up and do that and i also think you know dobbs could win down the field because he's obviously good at going up and finding the ball like i think there was a deep comeback that or a deep out route that jordan love threw in the denver game where he just like plucks it out of the air and just incredible fashion i golden is a little bit less there were a lot of those last year the contested

44:11Robert Mays: catch ability is not going to be where it was with Dobbs. That's not Golden's game, but the one-on-one, I need you to be a winner here. However that happens, that is still very, very important. It's just an ingredient within the offense.

44:25Derrik Klassen: For being 5 '11 and 191 though, I am impressed with his physicality. And like, I don't know if you want to make contested catches, his bread and butter, but there's a willingness and an ability to do it that defies his frame. In my opinion,

44:40Robert Mays: I'll say this. It's a different sort of contested catch ability because in college, and you see this with him, it reminds me a little bit of what Steph Diggs was as a contested catch guy, where you're a little bit undersized, but the ball tracking and your ability to win the ball in the air, you know, whether it's, I just think of plays even at Texas where it's a little bit underthrown. He has to turn his body back to the line of scrimmage and go up and get it. That's the type of stuff he can do. Dobbs was so good at shielding off guys and almost like boxing out guys at the catch point and winning contested catches that way.

45:13Robert Mays: That will never be Matthew Golden's game, even if he can win contested balls in the air, being able to kind of, again, just the physicality manifests in different ways. I guess that's what I would say. And I think the way that Dobbs is manifested last year was really important to how he was able to be successful within the offense.

45:32Dave Helman: I think that that's a really good point that Dave brings up, though, because like Golden can win the ball in the air. And so I think here the calculus that you're hoping for is that if Golden is, let's say, 10 to 15 percent less dynamic in terms of going up and just snagging the ball in the air outside of the numbers, but 25 percent more dynamic in terms of the speed and downfield stuff that he really gives you with a quarterback and offense that really wants to do that. But that, I think, is how this offense can look a little bit different. Because I do think he has a different gear of explosiveness than Romeo Dobbs did.

46:05Robert Mays: Him, Watson, and Reed, if that thing comes together, there's some electricity among that group.

46:13Derrik Klassen: This could be pure cope because it sounds good now. And remember, Jaden Reed missed a lot of time last year. And Christian Watson has had durability issues his whole career. And so maybe you've maybe you're up shit creek a month into the season because of that, because you don't have six receivers the way that they did for the last two years. But man, if if this works out, I love the point you make, Robert, where it just the roles for these receivers just make more sense now to me. Instead of just having five guys that can do a bunch of shit at varying levels, it just clicks in my brain in a really nice way, where Watson is this electric downfield guy.

46:56Derrik Klassen: Reed is a slot who can do a lot of stuff around the line of scrimmage, and Golden's explosiveness speaks for itself. And the stat that I wanted to share on him, because we're overlapping a lot today. You've done two of my guys, but the stat that I had for Matthew Golden, 17 of his 29 catches traveled five or fewer air yards and another six traveled 20 plus yards downfield. So do the math on that. Like the overwhelming amount of his touches in this offense were either at the line of scrimmage or as a deep guy. And so with Dobbs gone and Dontavian Wicks as well, if you want to throw him in, there's just so much.

47:38Derrik Klassen: there's so much there's a gap in the offense for like intermediate targets and with a guy with that type of speed filling that in could be so so exciting and yeah it's funny it meant like

47:48Robert Mays: those targets almost didn't exist in the intermediate area of the field for Matthew Golden last year Romeo Dobbs more than 33 percent of his targets came in the intermediate area of the field last year was 32 of his 85 targets came exactly in that stretch and so that is the area of the field because the underneath stuff that's where tucker craft lifts right so you have that kind of yak underneath option the intermediate part of the field is where you're going to need some help this year and i think that's exactly the step you want to see and the area you want to see kind of matthew golden take hold of all right let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a few more guys all right derek who's your next one i mean i'll stick with the big

48:31Dave Helman: fish if we're going to really quickly I feel like we have to more seriously talk about what Travis Hunter is actually going to be at cornerback for the Jacksonville Jaguars yes because I feel like we've done a lot of like we've done a lot of like oh you know it's Travis Hunter we'll get to blah blah we're getting to it and I think we keep talking about him as an idea like that's all we're

48:50Robert Mays: talking about is him as an idea and I think talking about him in practical terms as a football player is is very important for a team that made the playoffs last year and wants to make the playoffs

49:00Dave Helman: again yes I want to get like nuts and bolts and not even like I don't want to talk about his receiver stuff at all because I feel like with the room construction right now like it's almost cherry on top like like the the room is good they'll be fine the cornerback room if if Travis Hunter struggles or is is banged up or whatever it's going to be their backup cornerbacks right now are Dane Jackson who is on the tail end of his career and Christian Braswell like I I just don't know that that's going to be good enough for them and even on the other side like my Tarek Brown played really, really well last year, but was like generally kind of like a lower tier player until last year had a breakout season.

49:33Dave Helman: I think with corners, sometimes that can just be volatile. Hunter, I think when you go back and watch some of his plays, some of the stuff that you saw in college and really liked about him, you absolutely saw. Like he, again, I think in zone specifically, he is, can be like a special player. There was a play against Cincinnati with about 10 minutes left in the second quarter. He actually bails to like a deep half. They're playing like an invert coverage and burrow tries to throw this like deep outbreaking route to andre yosivas and sometimes the greedy corner thing to do is like undercut it try to play near shoulder and go for the pick he does the smart corner thing already where he's like playing high corner and knows that he's always going to be able to get a hand on the ball punches it as soon as the the wide receiver gets a hand on it and it's a breakup and just you see the speed you see the vision all that stuff i think in man-to-man coverage you sometimes see that he just does not have like the physicality and the arm length to hold up the way that you would always want.

50:29Dave Helman: And so this is not necessarily a defense that asks you to do that a lot. But I do think if he's going to go from like pretty good coverage corner, he can be a guy who can click and close to like, oh, this is one of those cornerbacks. I do think that he needs to get a little bit short up in that position.

50:45Robert Mays: I wonder what the plan is on third down. Like on third down, do you think it's potentially worth moving him inside and having somebody like Jerry and Jones as the other outside corner because of that? Like, this is not going to be a man-heavy team. This team is going to, I mean, if you look at the rates on it last year, what were they? I bet they were 80 % at least zone. And I expect them to live that way again. And so how they handle some of those man-covered situations, if that's the area where they feel like there's a little bit of a gap, I'll be curious to see what that looks like if he's going to be closer to a full-time corner.

51:18Dave Helman: I actually think that that's a good call if on third downs you just, if it's, you know, third and eight, And especially if it's against a team that, you know, does not have like a big slot type. Absolutely. Just move him into into the slot and kind of like just let him run with guys because he could he still runs with guys. Well, like he's a phenomenal athlete. It's just some of the guys that can bully him around. Like, I think almost I think it was either like the play after or shortly after the play I just talked about in the Cincinnati game. T Higgins runs a curl route on him and just like throws him off at the top and he's like five yards off of him.

51:49Dave Helman: And like that's some of that stuff is going to happen if he's an outside player right now. But like you said, if you protect him a little bit, put him into the slot on some of those third downs, which I would also say I wouldn't want to do with him on early downs because, again, he's just a little bit smaller. But if you're doing that just on passing downs, I do think that that is a good way to weaponize him.

52:06Robert Mays: And Jones is only 5 '11", too. I mean, they don't really have another big outside corner. But just if you want to try to be creative with it, I wonder if that's one of the areas you could be. Dave, who's your next one here?

52:16Derrik Klassen: so when I was doing this I was basically just going through teams and teams at all levels obviously are going to have these sorts of guys but I'm looking at teams with playoff aspirations and what like what is your your biggest fear your biggest doubt about them achieving the success that they want for themselves and so looking at various teams like that I come to the Detroit Lions. And I say to myself, what can they do to make me feel better about the problems that they have? And that's how I wound up landing on Tyleek Williams, which is, you can call it a big fish because he's a first round pick, but I don't know how much league wide narrative and conversation a year or two nose tackle defensive tackle is garnering.

53:10Derrik Klassen: But for a team that already has a host of problems on defense. And we talked about it in a summer show about whether they should be favored to win the NFC North. The defense is going to be what kills them if they don't, you know, achieve what they're after. And Tyleek Williams represents probably their best realistic chance to upgrade who they are is if he makes a leap into being a difference making sort of defensive tackle. And I think it's interesting to note, according to him, I know it's, it's best shape of my life season all over the NFL, but he said on social media that he's down 50 pounds, which

53:51Robert Mays: yeah, dude, two things about that. One, when you, when you put a number on it, that feels more real than I'm in the best shape of my life. Yes. I wonder how the lions feel about this. I assume that they were looped in as he decided to do this, but losing 50 pounds, it makes you a different person. Like that's like a six-year-old.

54:14Derrik Klassen: If your DT is down 50 pounds, I hope to hell that it was part of your plan for who he is, which is why I wanted to highlight him, because if your DT is down 50 pounds, you're going to be asking different stuff of him in year two than you were in year one.

54:29Dave Helman: I hope that this is like cheap math in the sense that like the season ended and he put on 30 pounds like just like offseason chilling lost 50 you know what I mean like I hope it's just like fake math somewhere somehow we've all been there I mean

54:44Derrik Klassen: that's how every single offseason goes for me you tell yourself what you have to to make the number sound as good as possible exactly I like this because I almost did Tylee Williams he was

54:56Robert Mays: very close to being one of I I was choosing between the Lions first and second round pick from last year, I chose the Lions second round pick, which we can talk about in a second.

55:06Derrik Klassen: So the weight loss stuff aside, I mean, if Tyreek Williams can do that, you have, and we've talked about it before, like the lack of a true proven pass rusher outside of Aiden Hutchinson is something that gives you pause. It's only complicated by what's going on with their safeties. Brian Branch will see. And Kirby Joseph, by the way, is on PUP to start camp. I'm not going to speculate too much, but it's just, you can't say the vibes are good with Kirby Joseph's knee issue and where that is, where that's sitting as camp gets underway. But if Tyleek Williams can develop into a steady presence in both facets of the game, I mean, if Liam McNeil and Tyleek Williams is like a really bad-ass one, two punch of guys that can give you juice as pass rushers, in addition to being really, really good against the run, that's probably Detroit's best realistic path toward being a defense that can get their offense where it wants to go.

56:08Robert Mays: Tylek Williams taking a step and at Lee McNeil coming back and looking healthier than he did last season. Like, I think those are crucial and necessary parts of that defense getting to a place where they're not torpedoing those stat teams chances. We get deeper into the season. I, Tylek Williams is a great shout. I went with Tate Ratlidge because that offensive line for the Lions, I mean, there are reasons to believe they will be better. You upgrade at center, you get bigger at center specifically, right? You get much bigger and more physical at center than you were last year. You dropped Blake Miller in the first round.

56:39Robert Mays: I keep confusing him and Monroe Freeling. I have no idea why. They're just drafted in the exact same range of that draft.

56:45Dave Helman: Well, they're both blue teams, both tackles.

56:46Derrik Klassen: Like, they're both monstrous. They played like 100 miles away from each other in college.

56:51Robert Mays: And they all play 100 miles away from each other in college, though. That shouldn't be a reason that I'm getting them confused. So, but you, you draft a right tackle in the first round. We know what Penny Sewell is. You upgraded center. I still think we saw enough from Christian Mahogany last year, even if he was banged up where you could imagine him being a slightly more refined player. And then you have Tate Rattledge. And I think if, if Rattledge can clean some stuff up from last year, in addition to all the other things that we're talking about, I think those questions on defense, Dave, almost get us to a place where the offense being hyper elite is necessary for the Lions to be a dangerous team as we get deep into the season.

57:29Robert Mays: And the offensive line playing better than it did last year is a non-negotiable aspect of that. And so what happens with Ratledge and whether that group can again feel like a real strength becomes incredibly important. And you watched him last year, you saw it. You saw the reasons that he was a second round pick. He is powerful, he's explosive, but there are times where he's a little bit rigid, where he can get a little bit uneven, the balance is a little bit off. He ends up on the ground a little bit too much. He falls off of guys a little bit too much. But you see why he was drafted where he was.

58:03Robert Mays: Like the physical tools are apparent. And I think with him and Mahogany, and Mahogany was on this list last year, if those guys can just clean some stuff up, the physical ability is there. And if it's all just a little bit more refined in conjunction with all the moves they made this offseason, then you get to a place where we're looking at the Lions offense as potentially the best unit in the league this year. And I think that, again, the offensive line coming together is a necessary component of that.

58:30Derrik Klassen: Sight unseen vibes only. Training camp has barely started. Are you more willing to believe the Lions offense will be elite or that the Lions defense will be good? Lions offense.

58:45Robert Mays: Yeah.

58:46Derrik Klassen: I mean, that's just way easier to believe, which is that's how I landed on Tylee Williams. because I like it. Yeah, it's it's pretty easy to imagine a world where the Lions offense is incredible. And it's a little bit harder to imagine the Lions defense being like a top 10, top 12 unit. And I think they need more stuff to go their way for that to happen.

59:07Robert Mays: You're probably right in the sense of like the ultimate X factor for how good the Lions are going to be as a team. Tylek Williams being a part of the defense shoring itself up is probably more important than whatever the offensive line is going to look like. I agree with you there.

59:20Dave Helman: but I do think like if Ratledge goes from functional to like a B plus level player potentially that gets and like Blake Miller is solid in his rookie season that actually probably gets the lines back to being like a kick-ass unit that can actually define what the offense is and like you said exactly my thought like Ratledge can move people man and yes and move yes he's he's a very good athlete he's just like you mentioned some of the balance and some of the just getting into himself into weird position stuff it's he's a six he's he is six six and a half he's a very tall guard there's just not a lot of guys like that and I think it's probably just more likely that it's going to take him a year two maybe three to like figure out how to make that work within an NFL constraint but like I he's a player that I'm kind of bought in on I

1:00:10Robert Mays: think he's got it the change of direction and the recovery stuff is where that's going to be what needs to kind of come into focus. And because when he's moving in a straight line, he can move in a straight line. You see that. And so I think that's a great way to frame it, Derek, where it's like, if that comes together and they become a kick-ass unit again, then we get closer to a place where when you combine that with the pass catchers, and I think a reasonable amount of faith that Petsing and Kafka and all the guys on that side of the ball with Campbell can get it all moving in the right direction.

1:00:38Robert Mays: And again, if this can be the best offense in the league, which I think if the offensive line could be really good, but they have the capacity to be, then to me, even with some questions on the defense, it reframes what we think the Lions are potentially capable of. All right, let's do some rapid fire. Just some guys that we don't have a ton of time to talk about at length, but guys that were on your lists as you were building them. Derek, just give me a couple more guys you were thinking about.

1:01:02Dave Helman: Yeah, I've got two more. One, TJ Sanders for the Buffalo Bills last year. He's going to be starting this year for them. Obviously they missed Ed Oliver last year and so their front was just weird, But Sanders was a guy came into the league. I think a lot of his thing was he's supposed to be explosive, supposed to get into the backfield. I just don't think you saw a ton of that last year. I think he looks a little bit stiff in the hips. But if he can take a step and just be a functional starter and Ed Oliver is who we think he is, I think that goes a long way. And then an underrated one I had. We've done a lot of talking about what Jalen Waddell was going to do for the Denver Broncos offense.

1:01:33Dave Helman: Pat Bryant potentially taking a step and them having like three real receivers. And he's a guy who they move around the entire formation. Like he's the guy who kind of unlocks you being able to put waddle where you want him. I do think Pat Bryant potentially going from useful to good could could kind of kick this Denver Broncos offense into overdrive.

1:01:51Robert Mays: Like both of those, Dave, any others that you had before we get out of here?

1:01:56Derrik Klassen: How about Lathan Ransom in Carolina? Oh, great one. Yeah. I like that. I mean, Merrick is there, but you could stand to upgrade the safety spot. And he showed some flashes as a rookie. It's always tough. And I landed on so many big names because for a show like this, you want to have some degree of confidence that there's a path toward meaningful snaps. But I think when you talk about the number of different roles you can find in the secondary, I think there's plenty of snaps to go around there.

1:02:30Robert Mays: I wonder what that group is going to look like. That was a question I had when I went there last week. Like, I think this is a situation, sometimes this happens, where, especially at that position, where you're more worried about the bad plays than you are about the good plays. Somebody like Nick Scott, who has been in that system for years and years and years, is a very smart player. I think from a ceiling perspective, he's somebody that fans, whoever is invested in the Panthers, would probably want to eject out of that spot. And it's like, let's just get to Q Wheatley and lay the ransom in there, and let's just see what the young guys can do.

1:03:07Robert Mays: I don't think that happens. I think even with Merrick moving down and playing the slot in the way that he does for them, Nick Scott is probably still going to be a featured part as one of those two safety spots just to protect them a little bit. Whether it's Wheatley or Ransom that kind of wrestles away the snaps at that other spot, I think it's probably going to be one or the other and not both of them. And I don't think it's settled which one of those two guys it's necessarily going to be.

1:03:32Derrik Klassen: probably worth mentioning princely umami alien as well especially now that we know nick scorton is out which is i mean it's devastating for carolina but a guy that showed flashes that i think people there are optimistic about it obviously changes the calculus not to have scorton there but that's definitely a name that's i think is worth having on the radar especially now

1:03:55Robert Mays: two second round picks for me we talked a little bit about will johnson earlier this week when We were talking about Monty Austin Ford having a lot at stake this year. I think he's worth mentioning again. Walter Noe is like a given. Both of those guys are hugely important. And the other second-round pick, Donovan Azaraku. The Cowboys, tons of additions defensively this year, but him taking a step. I think he had 30-something pressures last year, a couple sacks. Looks like he's going to be full go from the start of training camp, which is good news, but him really taking a step forward and being a centerpiece of that defense in year two And with Quinn and Williams becoming like the most important pieces along that defensive line.

1:04:34Robert Mays: Huge for what that Christian Parker group is going to look like this year.

1:04:38Dave Helman: That's a good one. I think the quick thing I would say there, too, is like he he's a little Nolan Smith ish, not maybe not quite as unhinged as Nolan Smith, but there's a little bit of that same quality to him. And so, again, perfect for a defensive. That's where the play college is coming from.

1:04:50Derrik Klassen: There's probably four players that got meaningful snaps in 25 that could go a long way toward improving the 49ers defense. Like, yes, the benefit of all those guys playing so much last year is hopefully they're primed to be that much better in year two. Now that I mean, they they had to jump in the deep end last year. You'd like to think that, you know, take your pick. Michael Williams coming off of injury. Alfred Collins, Upton Stout. I'll throw in CJ West because I like him. Marcus Siegel, the safety. Like, they were playing so many rookies last year. You would like to think that that could pay off this year.

1:05:28Robert Mays: Almost threw Michael Williams on there. Derek and I talked a lot about him on the Lingering Question show we did about the Niners. If you guys want to go back and listen to that, both him and Alfred Collins starting on the Pup List. So not the best start. Obviously, Michael Williams, we knew that would happen after the injury last year. But if he can get back up to speed quickly, hugely important for a team that's not overly deep at edge rusher. All right. That is all we've got for today. I will not be here tomorrow. You guys are holding it down as my training camp travels, pulls me away from a recording, but there's still plenty of great stuff coming.

1:06:00Our first training camp notebook in terms of the skill position,

1:06:05Robert Mays: skill position players, in terms of the beat writers, having the beat writers on that'll be Saturday. We will have those running on Saturday throughout the season. and then I'm also doing video notebooks from all 21 stops on the training camp tour. The Panthers one is already on our YouTube channel. If you guys want to check that out, by the time you're listening to this, the Cardinals one will be up. I say 21. I think I'm going to try to sneak in another one. I think I might try to do 22 before we get out of here. There's one more team I think I can get in there. So it'll be at least 21, maybe more, but encourage you guys to go check those out on the YouTube channel.

1:06:39Robert Mays: Something different this year that we're doing that we're excited about. A lot of fun stuff coming this week. Be on the lookout for it for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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