The stories teams are willing themselves to believe

0:00With the Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5 % cash back at different categories each quarter on up to$1 ,500 in purchases. That's 5 % cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to Discover. Terms apply. See discover.com slash 5 for details. There's something about fall that makes you want to slow everything down. Cooler mornings, longer evenings, a home that feels like it's exhaling. Pura fills every home with the sense of fall automatically, so your whole home feels like autumn the moment you walk in.

0:43Right now, get a free diffuser plus 20 % off select curated sets. Visit Pura.com to bring the season home.

0:54Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today, we're chatting about some stories that teams are having to tell themselves heading in to this NFL season. For whatever reason, the fact that teams have painted themselves in a corner, their personnel moves have made it so they have to tell themselves a certain story about how things are going to succeed. That's what we're talking about today. Just not necessarily the lies that teams have to tell themselves about their current situation, but the spin that they're having to provide to kind of believe in what they're capable of this year.

1:26Robert Mays: We did this show last summer and really enjoyed it. We're running it back today. A couple bits of housekeeping before we get into today's episode. First off, live show September 1st at Lincoln Hall in Chicago. Tickets are available right now on the Lincoln Hall website. Really excited about doing our second live show. Really enjoyed the one we did right before last year's playoffs. This year, we're doing the wins pool draft live at Lincoln Hall. So if you want to come be a part of that, we'll do some Q &A after. Lincoln Hall is a very cool bar area in the front of the venue where we were able to hang out and chat with people and visit with them last year.

2:02Robert Mays: We'll do the exact same thing this year. So if you want to come hear us give Derek shit about losing the wins pool last year, give each other shit as we make these terrible picks over the course of the entire draft, and come say hello, hang out with us a little bit after the show ends. We would highly encourage you guys to grab a ticket. I'm looking forward to it. My mom's going to come this year. My mom didn't come last year. So just, you know, little things that we're excited about. Also, if you have not been checking out our training camp stuff, there's a lot of it, right? This is the Little Caesar situation.

2:34Robert Mays: I don't know if it's good, but it's hot and it's ready. All of the training camp coverage that we've got coming to your guys' way. we've got training camp notebooks coming from every single stop of my tour. Those are all living on the athletic football show, YouTube channel, you know, three, four ish minute videos, three. If it's, if our producer Katie gets her way about every single stop that I'm making. So just insights, conversations, little nuggets that I'm taking away from all of those the first time doing these. So if you haven't been checking those out, would encourage you to do so. And then our beat writer conversations are going to be gathered up and running on Saturdays throughout all of training camp.

3:11Robert Mays: The last one ran last weekend. We'll have another one this weekend from all the stops that we're going to make over the next week or so. So be on the lookout for all of that if you have not been engaging with it already. For now, let's get to the stories that teams are having to tell themselves heading into the 2026 season with me, Dave, and Derek right now.

3:40Robert Mays: Every year, their teams, as they get into the offseason, they get closer to the season. You have to lie to yourself at least a little bit, right? You can't account for every potential downside, every weakness. The moves that you make happen in accordance with how you see yourself. And I think every team has to tell themselves a story about who they are and how things are going to go. When we did this show last year, Derek, the example that I really was the genesis for the show, is that the Giants just brought in Russell Wilson, a quarterback, and didn't do much else. And the Giants had to tell themselves a story last offseason that they just had a Daniel Jones problem.

4:17Robert Mays: They didn't, by the way. They had more than a Daniel Jones problem. We'll talk about them today, by the way. But so many teams each offseason, based on the moves they make and what they project to you, they're telling you and themselves a story. And I think it's a useful exercise. I really liked doing it last offseason, Dave. And that's why we wanted to lean back into it today. So that's what we're doing. We are going over the stories that teams have to be telling themselves as we get a week into training camp and a week into August. I didn't do this on purpose, but as I was looking through, thinking of things that interested me and stories that I thought teams might be telling themselves, I came away with a fun theme throwing back to like high school football.

5:03Like I imagine these stories being the sorts of motivational speeches that your high school football coach told you in the locker room back then, which you'll see what I mean when we get into it. But I I accidentally created a theme with the teams that I wanted to talk about.

5:19Dave Helman: You did it as if they are truly telling it to themselves, like not just straight up. They are actually saying it to the locker room. That's good.

5:26Robert Mays: I do have one that a guy literally said this week. And so there's going to be some examples of ones that are actually happening in reality. So let's start digging into these. Dave, why don't you kick us off? What is the first story that you wanted to go over that teams are telling themselves right now? These are all stories that have been in play for most of the offseason. But some of my takeaways are things that are framed by what we've been hearing since training camp opened and what's coming out of different NFL camps. And I want to start with a team that has not generated a lot of conversation and their head coach wants you to know that.

6:03And he wants you to know that he appreciates it. And it's the Jacksonville Jaguars. And I think what the Jacksonville Jaguars are telling themselves right now is we all we got. We all we need, fellas. Nobody else is on this bandwagon. So it might as well be us. And that is very directly what Liam Cohen is talking about. I'm sure y 'all saw his rant last week about how the Jags were not mentioned on the front page of NFL dot com. I will agree with him for being a 13 win team that won the division. This is not a team that is generating a lot of headlines in the NFL landscape right now. And then more direct.

6:44Robert Mays: Yeah, he's taking pot shots at other teams when he's making that comment, which I did not appreciate. Right. By the way, we can get into the bears of it all if we want to. On top of that, very literally, very literally, in addition to the motivational tactics, that is what the Jaguars are doing this year. We've talked about it before. Outside of Chris Rodriguez and Travis Hunter coming back from injury, there's not a whole lot in the way of major acquisitions or changes for this Jaguars team. They didn't have a first round pick. They didn't spend money in free agency. They're two of their top free agents left to go to other teams.

7:21They're very much running it back and hoping that young players and players that didn't have a role last year is all they really need. And so metaphorically, because their coach has a chip on his shoulder, but also very literally the Jaguars are all they got and apparently all they need as well.

7:40Robert Mays: I joked about the bears, but I actually think the bears and the Jags can kind of be linked here a little bit. I was considering each of them under this umbrella. And I think the story that the Jags have to tell themselves and the same ones happening in Chicago, it's like our offensive head coach is one of those dudes. And that is enough. Like with the guys that we have, plus this guy that we brought in last year, that is enough for us to stay in the conversation the same way that we were last season as playoff teams, as 13 win teams. And so I'm with you. I think that it's a version of the same idea where like what we have and what we had last year, the line is just going to keep going up.

8:18Robert Mays: And I think it's dangerous to think that way sometimes, Derek, but it feels like the Jags are confident that that can be the case for them.

8:24Dave Helman: And if Liam Cohen is one of those guys, like we've seen that all of these elite play callers can kind of get by with certain things. And like my, I actually had the Jaguars in mind as well. And mine was more specific to the offensive line. Like I wrote, they are hoping that they can get away with it again, because I still think when I look at this offensive line, it's not all that talented. Like Hainsey was OK last year. McCary was OK. I would say every Ezra Cleveland probably probably played his best football. But even still, I don't think that he's anything more than like average above average.

8:53Dave Helman: And then Colvin Landon inserted himself into the left tackle spot fairly well last year. But even he's coming off an injury that ended his season in I think week 18. And I believe he's still on the PEP list. And so they're still hoping that they can figure this thing out and that they're going to be OK. And there's evidence that teams can do this. Like Matt LaFleur and Kyle Shanahan have gotten away with average to below average offensive lines for quite some time. And obviously the Jags did it last year, but you kind of saw the run game fall away last year. And they really did need Trevor Lawrence to step up.

9:22Dave Helman: And they really did need Parker Washington to be this elite player for stretches. And so I think they could do it, but they are really telling themselves like, yep, we can get away with it with this unit. It's fine if we don't have like any pro bowlers here.

9:34Robert Mays: I think they see Anton Harrison as an ascending player that can become one of those difference makers up front. But other than that, I'm with you. Last year, I think the approach was, we just need to make sure we have a certain floor up front. When James Gladstone was in L.A., they had that season in 2022 where the bottom just completely fell out. And I do think that that experience has informed the way that he's thought about offensive line construction in the first couple of years he's been in the job. And if I was playing devil's advocate, the point that I would make is what they did this offseason.

10:06Robert Mays: Now they're even establishing a more secure floor because they have the depth that it's the same level of players. They just have more of them now. Right. So let's say one of the guards gets hurt. Now we have Emmanuel Pregnant that we feel comfortable playing in spot duty in one of those spots. So that protects us even a little bit more. We have a swing tackle that is the most expensive swing tackle in the league probably, but he's capable of playing if we need him to. And so I think that's been their thought is as long as we keep the floor at a certain point with the quality of play and the depth that we have at that spot, we feel comfortable in the offensive staff being able to construct a dynamic offense with that being the level of offensive line play we're banking on.

10:51Robert Mays: That's a story you have to tell yourself, right? Like that is a thing you have to believe in in a philosophical way where it's like it's not about the ceiling. It's about the floor with that group up front. We've seen that work before. But like you said, Derek, we've seen that work in certain specific circumstances where the offensive ecosystem is so strong. and the way that they approach things is so specific that you can kind of paper over what that offensive line construction looks like. Don't forget about the other side of this either. And it's similar because it was a little bit of an upset to me that Anthony Campanelli stayed in Jacksonville.

11:26He did such a great job. And getting Travis Hunter in the lineup, and I'm assuming he's going to play a lot of cornerback this year, that is a big deal. But you're still, like, on both sides of the ball, not improving the personnel. And it's a bet on coaching in both of these instances that, hey, Anthony Campanelli was a assistant coach of the year candidate last year. He can do this, that, and the other. We've got pass rushers up front. We're getting Travis Hunter back. Maybe that is enough, but I really, I can't get over how striking it is to look at the Jaguars roster and realize that not counting Travis Hunter, who did play about half of the season last year.

12:09There's nothing new here. Like across the board, there's really nothing new. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is an unusual thing.

12:18Robert Mays: They're banking on in-house improvements and returning guys. But like Travis Hunter is what he is, but Eric Armstead got banged up last year. So can he stay a little bit healthier? I think the Mason Smith-Rucororo trade is very telling. like both of those teams looked at a skill set they had and a skill set they wanted and decided they would switch that because a row row theoretically if he has a little bit more runway as a pass rusher if armstead does get banged up again now you have at least one more piece in the interior you think has a little bit of juice and i would say the guy among that entire group that i don't know if they're banking on it but i think they're kind of banking on it is trayvon walker taking another like significant step as a pass rusher can we have that dude go from being a very useful player with the way that we want to play.

13:08Robert Mays: Like he's so central to their ability to fend the run out of light boxes and just all the ways that they can use him. But him turning into a Will Anderson light type of player where they now have like an edge duo that starts to bump up against a version of what the Texans have. To me, that is one of the things that kind of has to happen for this vision of the team to come together to the degree that they want it to.

13:33Dave Helman: And to their credit, I do think that that can happen. Trayvon Walker has gotten better every single year that he's been in the league. And again, I still don't know because the bend is not that crazy that maybe he's never going to be a consistent 12-sack guy. But can he give you a couple of seasons where it's like 10, 11 sometimes, maybe high pressure rate because he's just always crushing the pocket? I don't think that that's that off the table. I feel like if he becomes some version of purely as a pass rusher, like a 90 % Jared Verse, that feels like that he could totally get there. Liam Cohen, play this in the team meeting.

14:05We believe, okay? We believe. We believe.

14:09Robert Mays: Derek, what's your first one here? Your first story that a team is having to tell itself as we get into August.

14:14Dave Helman: I'm going to go back to a team we already talked about at the top. The New York Giants are telling themselves it is the year 2018. That is what they are trying to convince themselves of. You have John Harbaugh as your head coach. Yes, you have John Harbaugh as your head coach, who I think in 2018, obviously, the Ravens were incredible that year. And so there's that. You have Greg Roman, who obviously ran a really impressive offense that year. And I think up until that point, even if there had been frustrations with Greg Roman, like the San Francisco offenses he ran were really good. The Buffalo offenses that he ran were really good.

14:43Dave Helman: Like, I think we were all pretty excited about what he could give you in that realm, especially with like the quarterback run game, when a lot of teams were doing a lot more quarterback run game, truthfully. And then you have Matt Nagy also on the staff, where 2018, like Patrick Mahomes is a phenom by then. And so you have this like group that is this coaching staff that feels like they were kind of peaking around that time. Roman was doing a lot of the quarterback run game. And I would say that that's important because they have a quarterback who his best weapon, his best tools are designed run game and RPO.

15:16Dave Helman: Some of that stuff can still work in 2025 and 2026, but it was better in like 2018, 17, you know, 19 and 20 and all that range. So and to even further going back to like how football was played, then their best tight end is like a move flex guy who is really more of a wide receiver than the tight end. And they there's some reason to like be excited about Cam Skatagoo, but they're closer to like getting by at running back with a committee than having like one of these dudes like Saquon Barkley or Derek Henry or B. John Robinson or something like that.

15:50Robert Mays: Is it a good thing in their minds that it's 2018 again? Like we can revive 2018 again.

15:55Dave Helman: I think they're thinking that like this was the best time for all of us. And if we combine all of our powers and kind of bring it back, we can get the most out of this quarterback who I think as far as the NFL landscape is now, like Dart is kind of unique in the fact that they're like they want to use him as much as a design runner. And so I think that they are kind of selling themselves that like, hey, we can we can bring back some of the stuff that we did back then and make it really good again.

16:19Robert Mays: it's really funny that all of the quarterbacks that in a different world were design run guys lamar jayden daniels jalen hurts all of those teams are drifting further and further away from it like i i don't know couldn't put a percentage on it but i'm wondering how many design runs jayden daniels had last year we could potentially look it up but i i bet it's a minuscule percentage this year compared to what it has been over the last two years and i think the same is probably going to be true in Baltimore. And we've seen a decrease over time and it's going to decrease even more as those teams go under center more than they probably did over the last couple of years.

16:53Robert Mays: And so in many ways, I think the Giants are going to be one of the last vestiges of how we talked about and played football in 2018 for good or bad. I really love your choice of the Giants, Derek. We've been on the same wavelength all week because I had the Giants as one of mine. My thesis statement, I'm going to take it even more throwback than you. My thesis statement is the Giants are telling themselves that those who stay will be champions. Like real Bo Schimbechler shit from the golden era of Big Ten football. Like that is the vibe that I'm getting from what the Giants want to be under John Harbaugh is it feels like such a throwback to an older generation of football.

17:39And like even even beyond 2018. And to illustrate what I mean, I was I was thinking about this in detail while I was getting ready for the show. And think about what you're asking John Harbaugh to do, which is come into a team that has been very, very little success over the last decade. Very few guys on this roster who know what it's like to be on a consistently good football team. And a lot of the guys that do are following him over from a winning program in Baltimore. And he's 63 years old. He is not a play caller on either side of the football. And the whole point is establishing this winning mentality in this culture.

18:22And the anecdote that I saw this week is that Harbaugh chewed out Jackson Dart for taunting a defender when he scored a touchdown. And about the little details are going to get us beat. you're going to make us kick a 50 yard extra point. We need to talk more about,

18:38Robert Mays: we need to talk more about this, bring it on Jackson dart scrambling in a training camp practice and scoring a touchdown and throwing the ball in the defender's face when he can't get hit during the practice. And it is one of the wild decisions I've heard about this summer so far. That's why defenders hate quarterbacks right there. But like, anyway, tell me, Tell me that like that shit's going to play really well with a large segment of the Giants fan base who have been watching shitty football for a long time. And they're going to say John Harbaugh is dialing us down on the details. And he's the CEO head coach that is going to find the extra edges.

19:19And maybe that's true. I don't want to shit on the idea entirely because there are successful CEO head coaches in the NFL today. But you look across the landscape of the league and the John Harbaugh model is starting to look really alien when you look at the successful head coaches in the NFL who are providing a decided advantage calling an offense or defense on game day. 22 coaches in the NFL right now are calling plays on one side of the football. 22 of the 32 are doing it for either offense or defense. And we've talked about it before. They're also skewing younger and younger. That's not to say you can't be a successful older head coach in the NFL, but this is just starting to feel more and more like an outlier.

20:10And when you see what obviously McVay and Shanahan and now Mike McDonald, Ben Johnson, when you see what these guys are bringing to their programs on Sunday, on the field, I lose a little bit of confidence in this CEO mentality where you're kind of at the mercy of the hires that you make. I mean, Nick Sirianni is a younger head coach who doesn't call plays on either side of the ball, and he's had a tremendous amount of success. Wouldn't you agree, though, that his job security is a little more tenuous than a guy who's been to two Super Bowls would be. And that's because several of his hires have gone so poorly that it has set the team back in multiple seasons.

20:54And so I look at what the Giants are doing and it sounds very good from a football guy standpoint. And it gives me a lot of misgiving in the current landscape of the NFL where we're seeing just how much of an advantage you can get from these play calling head coaches.

21:11Robert Mays: Let's point to me the most analogous situation that currently exists in the NFL. It's the guy that has the same last name as John Harbaugh. They had to fire their offensive coordinator and replace him because they needed more help on the offensive staff than they had, because when you are this type of coach, you are going to rise and fall as your staff does. like that's just how it goes and I this can work and I do I don't want to dismiss the idea of how important it is you use the word program and building a program and and having a way that you go about it in a way the building feels and a mentality that you set a standard that you set that that matters right like that's really important that's what a head coach's job is it is to create buy-in and an agenda and make sure that everyone in that entire building is pulling in the same direction and operating on the same wavelength.

22:05Robert Mays: That's real. And that's very important. But when that's all you do, you then have to make sure that every single hire that you make is the perfect hire is the right hire, because it's going to work or not work based on the quality of those. And we just have so many examples of that. And right or wrong, I think, kind of to that same level. And on that same point, I'd right or wrong and fair or unfair, I look at what happened with Pete Carroll last year, and it scares me a little bit. If I were a Giants fan and I was trying to find the worst-case scenario, it scares me a little bit. The Giants staff is so much more professional and put together than the Raiders staff was.

22:44Robert Mays: I mean, even if we have misgivings about the Matt Nagy offensive coordinator tenure and Greg Roman kind of flamed out again with the Chargers, these are guys that have had success, that have shown an ability to do the job. Mike Blumgren, who's their offensive line coach, was in Cleveland last year. He is somebody that had a ton of success at the college level. And so all of these things that were the reason that the floor by the bottom fell out for the Raiders, I don't think that's going to happen for the Giants. But I still think a lot of the same pitfalls potentially exist for them that existed for the Raiders last year because of the type of head coach that you hired.

23:20I think it's worth saying Mike Rabel's name as well. Like there are like I said, there are coaches that can do this and do a really fantastic job. Dan Campbell had to fire his first offensive coordinator before he made the hire that got everything humming. But Dan Campbell is another guy as well. If you're a Giants fan, it's not to say that this can't work, but it like I said, it just feels very alien. And when you get past the idea of a detail oriented head coach teaching accountability to these guys, there's value in that for sure but how much further does it go after you lay a baseline and so I've just been thinking about that as the Giants have gotten deeper into camp and and I

24:04Dave Helman: think even to that point Dave like Vrabel and Dan Campbell specifically even if they are more like the CEO type coaches and I know Campbell was calling plays at some point last year it's still obvious what they give you on game day like the way that they make decisions the way that they just have like very fine understanding of all the rules like Campbell even if he wasn't calling plays with Ben Johnson, I think very clearly had an influence on some of the unique stuff that they were doing. Absolutely. And he still does. And I think that's part of the reason they were still

24:29Robert Mays: an elite coach. They were still an elite offense last year after firing their offensive coordinator halfway through the year because he got better in how it's shaped.

24:36Dave Helman: Right. And so even if they are like the CEO guys, it's obvious what they give you on Sundays in terms of that stuff. I think with Harbaugh, it's a little bit more hard to see. And I think that that's why it feels a little bit closer to like the Carroll thing potentially.

24:53Robert Mays: I'll say this about the potential ceiling of a setup like this. If you're a Giants fan, like what just happened with the Chargers, right? I know Justin Herbert is a very good quarterback and we're not sure if Jackson Dart's going to be there. It's not completely one for one, but just let's play this out for a second. If you're a Giants fan and you get to a point where you fall short in the playoffs and you have to get better at your offensive coordinator spot. I think that's a fate the Giants would be okay with. Oh man, we're not good enough to get past the wild card round because our offensive coordinator is not good enough.

25:27Robert Mays: Oh man. What a, what a horror show.

25:30Dave Helman: A nine win, like a nine win giant season is a roaring success. I feel like. Yes.

25:36Robert Mays: And so I think that's the thing. Setting the floor here is probably more important than anything else. If you are the New York Giants, we'll deal with the, are we super bowl caliber two years from now when we get there? I appreciate that perspective because, and that is why Harbaugh is there is like to find a baseline of respectability that the giants very briefly, I guess found in 2022. But other than that, it's been a wasteland for a decade. And if Harbaugh can't get them over the eight and nine, nine and eight hurdle, you'd probably take that after the decade that they've had. Like that's okay.

26:13All right.

26:13Robert Mays: Let's take our first quick break and then come back and stick in the NFC East for a minute. Wrapping my arms around my finances has only gotten trickier as I've gotten older. It might not seem like that's the way it's supposed to go, but that is indeed the way it is paying a mortgage, paying your bills, paying for daycare, paying for kids activities. It just gets a little trickier and trickier as you get older and as your life gets fuller. And even though all that is true, Monarch, the personal finance app that tracks everything, accounts, investments, saving goals and spending can make your financial picture as clear as it's ever been.

26:48So yeah, saving up for a trip. And when did I know that we were going to be able to go ahead and book that when I hit a savings goal, that Monarch helped me identify love how easy it is to use love how everything is contained and shown to you in one spot really like to be able to be organized with these sorts of things. Monarch certainly makes that easy to do. Most apps only tell you what you've already spent monarch helps set goals map out big purchases and see if you're actually on track before it's too late to adjust you can ask monarchs ai assistant anything about your finances like how much did i spend on travel last summer or can i afford a vacation without touching my savings spot things you wouldn't think to look for with ai insights has your spending gone up or is it just inflation get a heads up on what's happening with your money with the ai weekly recap flag spending spikes net worth shifts and upcoming expenses write your own money story with monarch Use code athleticfootballatmonarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just$50.

27:45That's 50 % off your first year at monarch.com with code athleticfootball. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for? The one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded? I found it, and trust me, it's not what you expect. It's called Paka, spelled P-A-K-A. And if you're tired of hoodies that stretch out, pill, or feel heavy, this is the upgrade you've been waiting for. Packet makes outdoor and lifestyle apparel from Alpaca Fiber, one of the world's most sustainable natural fibers. Their best-selling hoodie is softer than cashmere, warmer than wool, and breathable.

28:19This hoodie is built for real life, thermoregulating, odor-resistant, durable, and made to last. Each one is made start to finish in Peru and features an Inca ID that's hand-woven by artisans, honoring generations of knowledge and traditions and connecting you closer to where your clothing comes from. Over 250 ,000 people have already picked up the Packet hoodie. What makes it even better? It really is like a second skin so comfortable so warm exactly what you're looking for in a hoodie You know, it's funny as a sports podcaster. I am able to have a relatively casual wardrobe When I go into the office a few days ago, my wife and I were both getting ready to go for work and she Looked me up and down.

28:55It's like that's that's for the office and i'm like, yeah, it is and guess what? It was the pack of hoodie that I was wearing can wear it to work can wear it to a baseball game a football game, can wear it to your kids' games, you can wear it outside, inside, whatever the case might be, Pack-A-Hoodie is there for you. If you've been thinking about leveling up your hoodie game, this is your sign to do it. To grab your Pack-A-Hoodie, go to www.PackAapparel.com. That's www.P-A-K-A-Apparel.com. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've heard me talk about BetterHelp for a long time, but I don't know that we've ever actually talked about how much people love this service when they use it.

29:33You can check it out yourself at betterhelp.com slash reviews to see amazing customer reviews in real time. The reviews are updated every day with hundreds of people saying how much they love BetterHelp and how helpful it's been to them. Please visit betterhelp.com slash reviews to see for yourself. BetterHelp has an average live therapy session rating of 4.9 out of 5 based on over 1.7 million client session reviews. The feedback from people who have actually used the service speaks for itself. More than 6 million people have used BetterHelp globally. The consistent feedback from real users makes it easy to see why so many people continue to choose BetterHelp.

30:07BetterHelp therapists have at least three years and 1 ,000 hours of hands-on experience. They also hold all required education, training, and certifications across a range of mental health specialties. BetterHelp makes it easy to get started, answer a few questions, get meshed with a therapist based on your needs, and switch therapists at any time if it's not the right fit. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. visit betterhelp.com slash maze that's better help.com slash maze

30:40Robert Mays: so Dave you and I both had commander's takes or commander's stories I was in Washington this morning and but I would have thought this even before I got there the story that the commanders have had to tell themselves this offseason is new ideas will save us especially on offense obviously Stefan Diggs this funding signing happens half an hour before we started recording this huge like necessary you know like they this needed to happen based on the current state of the roster we're talking about a combination of Deami Brown trail on Burks and then a little bit of Antonio Williams sprinkled in there that's not serious for a team that probably has to win like double digit games for everyone to feel good about how this season went so them signing Stephon Diggs, I think we could connect the dots on that for most of the offseason.

31:30Robert Mays: But that's really the only splashy thing they did with the offensive personnel, depending on how you're going to bucket Chica Conquo in that signing. But the offensive line is back as constructed without their starting center from last year. All of the running back moves that they made are very modest moves. And so on offense and then also on defense, this is about if we change the way that we play. If we are more in line with the offensive meta to a degree on offense and then on defense, we are incorporating and adopting a system that just makes us harder to play against. And I think that's the point of this.

32:08Robert Mays: If we just become harder to play against on offense and defense, we are going to be good enough to get where we want to go. That was the problem last year. I buy into it a little bit and we could talk about that just about the changes that they're making and what they want to get out of them. But that's absolutely the story that they're telling themselves. And that's kind of always the story when you're changing out both your coordinators. It's like that, that was the problem. The ideas and how we play was the problem. Now that we're tweaking that stuff, we can be closer to the team that we want to be.

32:40In so many words, I had the same idea. I mean, the funny answer to this is the commanders are telling themselves we can wait on digs. He's still there. And now that that's done with, I think the story, the story you're telling yourself is the infrastructure that we on the outside, I guess the infrastructure that they can't see is better than it's giving getting credit for. And that's I mean, that's the decisions they made at coordinator. I mean, Durante Jones coming in for Dan Quinn to give him play calling duties as a defensive guy coming from Brian Flores's staff. That's very interesting to me.

33:15And then I think if the commanders had done more on offense to give us confidence, and I like the digs edition for the record, but I'm talking about throughout the offseason. If the commanders had more to work with to get you excited about, there's no way we wouldn't be talking more about David Blau. Like he is a fascinating character in this upcoming season. Other than the fact that when you look at what the commanders are trotting out there, it's hard to get overly excited about anything other than a healthy season from Jaden Daniels. I mean, look, I know the commanders were based like if it weren't for the Cowboys, they're the worst defense in the NFL by a wide margin.

33:54Like they were pitiful. I get why you had to do things on that side of the ball. it's still crazy that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars in, in free agent money. I think if you're doing going off of cap hits, the defensive additions they made this year are accounting for like a quarter of their cap space, like 50, $60 million in cap space, their offensive additions. It's like$7 million. That's before digs. I don't know how his contract structures, But it's Chigokonkwo and Rashad White. And other than that, it's save us Jaden Daniels. And maybe to that degree, it's save us David Blau and Jaden Daniels.

34:38I think that's what it is.

34:39Robert Mays: Yeah, exactly. I think that's the story that they're telling themselves.

34:42Dave Helman: It really is. And at least with Daniels, we have proof of concept, right? His rookie year doing what he did with a pretty limited offense in terms of the cupboard, I think, was extremely impressive. but I think to that point too like they are selling this idea that they're going to be a little bit more under center and maybe they're going to run the ball more and it's going to offense is going to look a little bit different but I look at the personnel that they have and I just don't I struggle to buy it I think like Chigakonkwo does not feel to me like that sort of tight end and I know that they have like John Bates who can be a decent blocker but then even I look at the wide receiver core and like Terry McLaurin, Stephon Diggs, like potentially Antonio Williams that feels more of like an 11 personnel like gun type of team Rashad White I think it's like a really good pass catching back so it almost feels like the more you are in gun and can weaponize him that that is like a weapon for you like it it feels like they want the offense to be something else but a lot of the moves they made still suggest that it's going to be a lot of what had worked for Jaden Daniels in his rookie season which like probably makes the most sense and if this is a 15 % of the offense is different but it's still 85 % of what he does extremely well that maybe that is enough for them to be like we're different enough and just difficult enough

35:54Robert Mays: to defend that this can work I think it'll be a bigger change than that okay I think it'll be a more substantial change than that and I I understand what you're saying and I agree with you that but I think that their best collection of 12 of 11 players with digs now is going to be McLaurin digs Bates a con quo the offensive line name your running back that's that's going to be their best 11 players. And if I'm trying to paint a rosy picture of like how this can work out, if you look at, so David Blau was there in Detroit during Sam Laporta's rookie year. And I think Chico Kanko now in year five is probably as useful of a blocker as Sam Laporta was as a rookie, right?

36:38Robert Mays: Like it's, let's compare him to rookie year Sam Laporta. And so the 12 personnel that Alliance could use that season where you have Brock Wright to just be the guy that you can stick on the line of scrimmage. And then how many creative ways can you use Chico Kanko as a blocker that's really not asking him to do the things he can't do? That, to me, is the version of the Washington offense that can work out. That's an incredibly fragile, specific personnel grouping. Good offenses typically have more things they can do. But I think that is their best pathway to being the offense that they want to be.

37:14Dave Helman: How much of this do you think will be under center? Because you can still be a problem out. Really? Okay. I think I want to see that from Jaden Daniels before I truly believe it. Because some quarterbacks just don't like or are not as comfortable turning their back. Joe Burrow is an excellent quarterback who just has not and does not do that very well or very often.

37:32Robert Mays: He apparently has had very little issues. Okay, that's awesome. I think he feels comfortable doing it. My sense is this is not a situation where it's like, I don't really love this. I think part of it is his comfort level has been notable. And I think the other part of it is, and Dave said this, like the save us Jaden Daniels thing. I really do believe that they think they have a special player and that we forgot the fact that he is a special player. And this version of the offense, as much as it's about leaning more into the offensive meta, being harder to play against, all of that kind of stuff.

38:07Robert Mays: I think the other benefit that is potentially on the other side of this version of offense is he's healthy. if we're playing under center and he's not running the ball on design runs four or five times a game and we're not putting him in harm's way and he plays the entire season we're going to remind you that this is a special quarterback because I think you guys forgot that's not explicitly what they've said but I think that's kind of the subtext in the background of like why they think this is going to work out even if it looks structurally a lot different here's my rebuttal to that and I have no problem believing it and and it makes sense if they think that if you think jayden daniels is special which i do why the are you asking him to carry such a mid supporting cast so early in his career well that's what i think the homes are supposed to do in year eight like once you have established yourself as a hall of famer then you got to make do with less you had the money you could have and I know receivers don't hit the open market I understand all they tried to sign all of them though try harder try harder I don't care the fact that guys the fact that they spend all that money on defensive free agents and drafted Sonny Styles is crazy to me and I I love Sonny Styles I think he's amazing but how much better would you feel about the commanders if Jordan Tyson was there in addition to like oh man I think I'd be pretty terrified about the off-ball linebackers if Sonny Stiles wasn't there.

39:39Figure that out later. Figure that out after you help your special quarterback land in an ecosystem that you feel good about instead of having to sign veterans in August because your offense is a wasteland.

39:53Dave Helman: I actually do think this is interesting in terms of like what is actually more frustrating for a young quarterback to do. Is it like to carry an offense that is kind of mid and doesn't have a lot but he's a special talent which like again we've seen jayden daniels do that and is it or it would it be better to have like a pretty goodish offense around and they add one or two free agents but the defense is still giving up 29 points a game and he's got to go play shootouts every week and it's like i know they did that as a rookie but that does not feel like a good pressure to have on the young man i think

40:23Robert Mays: it's important to remember though that this was not for lack of trying it's not like we had a certain bucket of money we allocated all of that money to the defense they still have like 40 million in cap space. They tried to sign Alec Pierce. They tried to sign Romeo Dobbs. Those guys went other places. And who knows if Colonel Tate is available when they're picking in the top 10, maybe they pick Colonel Tate. He wasn't. And this team specifically, it's funny how different landing spots change the way that you look at a draft pick. Jordan Tyson landing on the Saints. I'm like, yeah, let's roll.

40:58Robert Mays: I cannot wait to see this. In Washington, all I'd be thinking about is his hamstring just popping in like week three and then after mcclellan was hurt last year and jane daniel's hurt last year just the idea of drafting an oft injured receiver for this team specifically i can understand them being like not my tempo i'm gonna go with the crazy looking linebacker instead it's a valid point that they did try to do these things but when you look at like if if the if the commander's spending this offseason was a pie chart there would be like one slice of pie for the offense and the rest of it would all just be defensive spending and it would just be nice if it felt a little more balanced and I do think Jaden is special and amazing and I wish that he had more to work with than he does in year three I think they're hoping that the change in structure does a lot of lifting and that he can do the rest of it and that's the story they're telling themselves one other thing I wanted to mention I would this would never register for me.

41:58Like quarterbacks work with their centers during training camp all the freaking time. It happens. It's like a very baseline part of training camp practice. Watching Jaden Daniels take under center snaps from commanders practices, though, I was like, oh, this matters. This is like he does it so seldomly to this point in his career. Like I'm actually interested in Jaden Daniels working on the center exchange under center. So I hope there's more of it. And I like I said, I think it's flying under the radar. but David Blau very quietly and just an interesting person in the NFL landscape. He was their assistant quarterbacks coach up until the holidays last year.

42:35And now he's the offensive coordinator calling plays. Like that's an insane trajectory, even in a world where young coaches are getting opportunities left and right. That's still a crazy trajectory.

42:45Robert Mays: The two youngest offensive coordinators in the NFL right now. I don't know how old Davis Webb is. How old is Davis Webb? So Davis Webb's in that same conversation. Davis Webb is actually older than David Blau, and both of them are older than Declan Doyle. So yes, the two youngest offensive coordinators in the NFL right now, they just want that Ben Johnson heat, man. That's what they're after. All roads lead back to Ben. Listen, if this 22-year-old kid was on the Bears staff, I'll hire him. It's like the Sean McVay thing, except everyone's getting 10 years younger than the guys they were hiring off that tree.

43:21Robert Mays: The last thing I'll say about Washington, sonny styles is the coolest looking player i have seen at training camp oh my god don't get me like just watching like him on the field for he had the rolled up jersey and so we have like the 90s football movie like exposed midriff and him choosing to wear 52 in this era just the sheer amount of respect I have for that. Like that man looks like a linebacker and I am very excited. He's still, you know, we'll talk more about all this stuff. And I'm, I'm itching to like download the things I've talked to people about on these shows. And when in reality, we've got a month to kind of spool it out, but it's fun kind of where he's at right now, the mental side, it's, it's going to come along slowly.

44:10Robert Mays: We know that at that position in the NFL, it's not that he's behind. It's just that it's going to be a process. But in talking to one of their coaches today, him kind of figuring out his physical limits and where they exist and the process of what that looks like. He had a PBU in practice earlier this week where it was like, he made a play on a ball that just the range you shouldn't be able to do as a linebacker. And so it's just one of those moments where it's like, oh, shit, I can do that here. And he's just like, he's kind of just checking those off and like racking those up. And I think watching him figure it out over time is going to be a really fun process.

44:47Robert Mays: He's the rookie of the year. Bank it. He's an animal. And I will not be called anti-Sunny Styles just because I'm worried about Jaden Daniels. No, we're putting that on you right now. I won't allow it to happen. Derek, what's your next one here? The story that teams are telling themselves right now.

45:03Dave Helman: I'm going to stick with NFC offenses changing. The Philadelphia Eagles are telling themselves that Jalen Hurts can do what Lamar Jackson did. in 2023 with Todd Monken, where it's an offense that I think is probably going to be a different style of drop back passing game. I think it's going to be a little bit more fuller. I think they expect the quarterback to have more ownership over the offense in a way that Lamar Jackson took over in 2023, moving to that offense. And so I think that, and obviously, you know, we can get to the AJ Brown element of in a minute, but I just think the overall construction of the offense, what they're going to put on the quarterback, how it's going to look is just going to be different and I think we're we probably overrate a little bit how much it's going to be under center like Jordan Love was under center like 20 % of the time of his passing attempts I think last year which is more than Jalen Hurts but not like it's not like he was Matthew Stafford it wasn't like they they were more of a gun run team and that style of team the Packers were then like they're probably closer to the Eagles than we think but it's still a different offense that puts more on the quarterback it's going to be at least it was in Green Bay more vertical offense outside of just nine balls.

46:08Dave Helman: It's going to be a little bit more pure play action. So they're just telling themselves that a player that really up until last year, it did feel like was getting better every year. Like it added one little thing to his game, like pocket presence got slightly better or his accuracy in this way got a little bit better or he was getting the ball out quicker in quick game. And it just felt last year was a little bit stagnant. So they're hoping that like, okay, we're going to restart the offense again. He can go do it and he can make another improvement.

46:34Robert Mays: Do you think what is your confidence level in that happening? Because you framing it that way, I think I'm trying to step back and just be honest about my own views about Jalen Hurts and how I see him. And I think that I've, you know, I don't think it's any secret that I feel like he's been kind of a limited quarterback in the way that he approaches the position, the things he's willing to do, what he can access, all of that stuff. but I also think it's we should admit that the way that they've played over the last three or four years also just hasn't asked him to do a ton of that and so I think it's a combination of you know if is it that he can't do it or that he won't do right like is that's or is it he can't do it or is he hasn't been asked to do it I think that's one consideration I think the other one is he didn't play particularly well last year but it was an offensive ecosystem that was objectively bad And so like, does he deserve a little bit more grace in the fact that he didn't improve last year?

47:28Robert Mays: Because we give that grace to other quarterbacks. When other in other situations that are just unhealthy as an offense, we give the quarterbacks grace for not playing particularly well in those circumstances. is if you improve the situation because we're running a system that makes it just a little bit easier on all of the offensive skill position talent could we see a better different version of Jalen Hurts I probably have more skepticism about that than I might for other quarterbacks but I think it would be unfair to just rule it out completely I think for me it's a lot more like

48:02Dave Helman: I think I'm just skeptical of what I think the ceiling of it is even if it does start to look

48:06Robert Mays: like even if he does make some improvements but where lamar was the mvp in 2023 as how many notches down from is jaylen hurts even if the trajectory is similar right and that's the thing

48:18Dave Helman: like i think it could be a similar trajectory and i think the ravens got to a point with lamar where it was like they kind of kept doing the greg roman thing because they had had so much success with that style like what they were doing early on that they kept just kind of tinkering with that same style and they were like it'll work out eventually it'll work out eventually and then of got to a point where it's too stale and I think maybe the Eagles have gotten there with the it's just going to be like gun inside zone and throw RPOs and throw nine balls and it's like it's got to be something else and so I think them potentially asking Hurts to do it again I think for a long time he did get better and I think for me the difference for probably my perspective versus like general perspective on Hurts is that his starting point I think in general for a lot of people might have been like quarterback 18 and the improvements year over year got him to like quarterback eight and for me it was probably more like he started at like quarterback 22 and climbed up to like quarterback 13 so I think the maybe level is just a little bit lower but again he's always gotten better for the most part and I'm at least willing like one more time for an offense that should be a lot different to be like to to give him the chance to go and be a different player than we've seen from him so far I think this goes back to something that you two and I have been at odds about since I joined the show is like what's your goal for Jalen Hurts like are you trying to put Jalen Hurts in the conversation for NFL MVP and top five in Sandoz quarterback rankings or are you trying to win the Super Bowl because like I don't need Jalen Hurts to be all that good to win a Super Bowl right like if he's quarterback with this

49:47Robert Mays: roster I think you do yeah you do you I agree with that I think you do need him to be better than he's been if you're going to win with this roster why because they don't have aj brown yeah i think that you just don't you can't when you had aj brown and you had davante smith and you had the running game that looked like it did in that season aj jalen hurts was allowed to be the very specific type of quarterback that he was in that situation with this group i think he has to do more things and has to have more layers to his game in order for the offense to reach that level of success. That's probably fair.

50:29And I don't mean to minimize the loss of AJ Brown. I just said on a show earlier this week, how high I am on Devante Smith, though. And like if Devante Smith plays at the level that I think he's capable of and you can piece it together the rest of the way down. And obviously a huge part of this is the running game being better than it was last year. But like, I think the Eagles could win the Super Bowl if Jalen Hurts is the 13th best quarterback in the league this year. That's not crazy for me to believe.

50:57Robert Mays: The Seahawks just did it last year with Sam Darnold. If you have the best defense in football, that is possible. But they might. They're going to be on that short line. Yes.

51:05Dave Helman: I actually agree with that. But I think what it would require for Jalen Hurts to play at that level, he has to be a different player. Like him playing the same way that he's always played, given the talent. I find it really difficult for him to like play and produce like the 13th best quarterback unless the offensive line is like magically the best in the league again and Makai Lemon is like the rookie of the year which like it's not off the table I suppose but I think you're asking a lot I do think I will acknowledge my vision is is baking in a lot of hope that the offensive line looks more like what we remember and again the running back is more devastating than it was last year like I am counting on other elements to buoy Jalen Hurts the way that they did in 2024 and even before that but I don't know I just like I don't need Jalen Hurts to play like anything resembling a top five quarterback to be really high on Philadelphia and it just feels like there's a disconnect there really like the Lamar parallel here I hadn't thought about it in those terms and

52:10Robert Mays: And I really like that because I just think we forget how frustrating and down a lot of people were on Lamar Jackson before Todd Monken got there. Like, I think that that dip, the heights of the Greg Roman offense, winning the MVP. And then I think we forget how low the dip was after. And he was banged up. That was part of it. But I was just looking it up while you guys were talking. Where do you think Lamar Jackson ranked in EPA per drop back during the 2022 season? among players with 100 dropbacks so the year before Mocken got there you're giving me the context that it was probably bad so I'm gonna guess I don't know I still think it was okay

52:50Dave Helman: because he's Lamar I'm gonna guess it was like 14th I'm gonna say like 10th 22nd what really

52:58Robert Mays: 22nd yeah I think we forget how how rough it looked there by the end and again I think that maybe we're a little bit fat quicker to give Lamar grace in a situation like that because we had seen him be the MVP of the league. But Jalen Hurts may deserve the same level of grace. And like I it's in the similar for the exact reasons that you're talking about, Derek, like the Ravens never had to do this because Greg Roman never got hired away. But let's just play this out hypothetically. Let's just say that the Greg Roman offense wins the Super Bowl, right? the way that you want to play. He gets hired away.

53:35Robert Mays: Your choice after that as your offensive coordinator the way that you wanted to play would almost certainly be whoever on the staff you thought could carry over the way that you were playing before. And then if it didn't work out, maybe you would then feel compelled to be like, all right, it's time to pivot, right? It's time to do it. The Ravens came to it naturally because it kind of ran out of road without that level of success. But I don't think the Eagles pathway is all that different to the choice that the Ravens had to make before that 2023 season, when they just simply realized that version of offense had run out of road.

54:10Robert Mays: But I think we didn't really heap some of that failure on Lamar Jackson in the way that we have heaped it onto Jalen Hurts.

54:18Dave Helman: I think that that's totally fair. And again, like we, it was easier to give Lamar Jackson the benefit of the doubt because we've seen him win the MVP. And I don't think we've seen Jalen hurts play at that level but like we've seen him be much better than he was last year and we've

54:31Robert Mays: seen he was second team all pro in 2022 yeah like close yeah he got close one year and so like it's

54:37Dave Helman: we've seen him be so much better than he was last year and again I still have some reservations about like what his ceiling really is but I do want to give him the chance to be like listen this team needed some sort of shot in the ass to be something different and to be something new and he's never really been a bad player and again I think before last year he had consistently improved I'm willing to give him the chance the same way that like you know that we did with with Lamar and again because I've been like the most Lamar guy possible I was like of course he's going to take to it but I want to be fair to Jalen Hurts and give him the chance to like he could absolutely do that and play like the eighth best quarterback this year Jalen just unfortunately is torn between people who want him to be a top five quarterback and people who don't think he's like a top 20 quarterback and if you make peace with the idea that the truth is somewhere in the middle it's just not I don't know it's just not that dramatic for me I mean I'm inching toward a I'm inching toward a Jalen Hurts has been overrated for so long that he's becoming underrated take I'm not quite there yet but that's kind of what I'm dancing around too

55:39Robert Mays: but I also I'm willing to admit that part of my dislike is strong I'm not even gonna go there I think part of my

55:51Robert Mays: resistance to Jalen Hurts is that I just don't like how he plays I like I'm just like fully willing to admit that and I wonder if are we going to see him play slightly differently this year and will that kind of reshape the way that his game hits my brain I'm open to that like I am open to that I'm going to Philly on Friday and it is one of the stops I'm most excited about for like everything that we're talking about here is that all of these offensive transformations are interesting in their own way that the Philly one is at or near the top of the list for everything because of all the things that we're saying here all right let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat about a few more of the stories the teams are telling themselves as I've crept closer to 40 I've tried to stay pretty active working out five to six times a week eating as well as I can most days but like a lot of people my energy and recovery just aren't quite the way it used to be.

56:45Robert Mays: The problem for most people trying to optimize their health and performance is that they're flying blind. Maybe you start taking supplements, clean up your diet, change your workouts, but how do you know if any of it is actually working? Every fan can tell you their quarterback's completion percentage, but almost nobody knows their own body's stats, cholesterol, testosterone, inflammation, or vitamin D levels. That's where superpower health comes in. The world's best athletes don't guess about their health. They have elite medical teams behind them, comprehensive testing, personalized plans. That's how they recover faster, perform better, and stay at their best.

57:17Robert Mays: Most of us aren't chasing championships anymore, but that doesn't mean we can't take the same data-driven approach to our own health. Superpower is one simple blood draw that gives you information on over 100 of your blood biomarkers. For comparison, your annual physical checkup usually checks around 10 to 15. Superpower looks at 17 different systems throughout your body, including heart health, metabolism, thyroid, inflammation, hormones, and more. Instead of guessing about what's holding you back, you finally have the data to know what to focus on, all broken down in a single Superpower score.

57:47Robert Mays: Instead of getting blood work once and filing it away, you have a simple way to track your health over time. As you improve your diet, dial in your workouts, or find the right supplements, you can actually see whether those changes are improving your health. The best part? Anyone can use Superpower. This level of testing isn't reserved for professional athletes anymore. Superpower can send a licensed medical professional to your home, or you can visit a nearby lab. It starts at just$199 a year, is HSA FSA eligible, and gives regular people access to the kind of proactive, data-driven healthcare that's usually only available to elite athletes.

58:20Robert Mays: Go beyond your annual checkup and finally understand what's really happening inside your body. For a limited time, our listeners get$20 off to unlock their health membership. Head over to superpower.com and use code ATHLETICFOOTBALL for$20 off your$199 Superpower membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about superpower. Tell them the athletic football show sent you to support the show. This episode is brought to you by Bill, the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results. If you're running a business or managing finance, you know how easy it is to get drowned in software hype.

58:55Tools that promise the world but leave you stuck doing manual grunt work. Stop the guesswork and start scaling with the proven choice. AI-powered efficiency. Their AI-powered accounts payable automation erases the busy work of capturing invoices and routing approvals, syncing seamlessly with top accounting software so you can focus on growth. Proven track record. In finance, unproven tools make no sense. Bill is trusted by nearly half a million businesses and their accountants to manage, move, and maximize their money. And they've securely processed over a trillion dollars in real transactions.

59:27Simplifying operations. Bill is not just moving money. They're simplifying financial operations for nearly half a million customers. Talk with a payments expert at bill.com slash proven and get a$150 gift card as a thank you. That's bill.com slash proven. Terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Question for any pet owners. Of course, we all love our pets. But do you ever think about just how much joy and energy your pet brings to your household? something that's been on my mind a lot recently because I spent a healthy chunk of the summer out of town away from our dog Mozzie and getting back to him really made me think about just how much he does for my quality of life my mental health and how I would do anything to keep his derpy little face bopping around next to me for as long as possible I bring it up because today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA pet health insurance program if you've ever found yourself awake at 2 a.m., phone in hand, Googling things like, is this normal for dogs?

1:00:31Or do I need to call a vet right now? You are not alone. Those unexpected moments are part of having a pet, which is exactly why ASPCA Pet Health Insurance exists. It helps take some of the financial stress out of vet care so you can focus more on your pet and less on the cost. The ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program offers customizable accident and illness plans that can fit your budget, your lifestyle, and even your pet's particular quirks. Because let's be honest, vet bills can add up fast. ASPCA Pet Health Insurance has been around for almost 30 years and has covered over 1 million pets. And when it's time to submit a claim, it's easy.

1:01:08Just use their app and receive reimbursement for eligible vet bills directly into your bank account so you can get back to focusing on what really matters, your pet. To explore coverage, visit ASPCAPetInsurance.com slash athletic football. That's ASPCAPetInsurance.com slash athletic football. Again, that's ASPCAPetInsurance.com slash athletic football. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either Independence American Insurance Company or United States Fire Insurance Company and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Limited. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance.

1:01:49Robert Mays: All right, Dave, what's your next one here? buddy. As recently as a week ago, I would have said this with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek that the Indianapolis Colts are telling themselves that it can be September of 2025 by science or magic. But I had the same one. We must believe the first half of last year was real. We have to believe it's real. But like it might be true. Like every single person that's rolled through Colts camp since it opened is saying that Daniel Jones looks the same. Like he's not limited by the Achilles injury at all. He was full go at the beginning. And I know, you know, the ramp up period takes so long that we've probably only had two days in pads, but everybody that's rolled through there is like, yeah, Daniel Jones looks like nothing ever happened.

1:02:38I think like Ben Solak said, if you, if I didn't know he had been hurt, I would not know that he was hurt. And we don't have to extrapolate too much, but that is a, it's a very encouraging place for the Colts to be considering what they're up against. And if Daniel Jones is okay, now you can just tell yourself that it doesn't matter that Alec Pierce isn't practicing yet and say, all right, it's all fit together in September when we need it to.

1:03:02Robert Mays: The pie chart you're referring to with that joke on 30 rock is the NBC business plan. And most of the pie chart, and that is the biggest loser. and then a smaller part is make it to 1997 again through science or magic and then it's everything else the Colts one the biggest part of the pie is making it September 2025 through science or magic the second biggest part is Josh Downs to the moon and then it's everything else that's that's that's the slight difference in how that one is constructed versus the 30 rock joke well and so that's why I

1:03:33Dave Helman: think the magic has to kind of come in like there I think if you just if they ran back the exact same roster and you were saying can they be as good as they were in September I think even then I would be like man I don't know they were running hot even if we like disregard whatever we think of Daniel Jones's health well now Alex Pierce is banged up Michael Pittman is not on the roster and they're changing out their right tackle that seems like a lot of change for an offense that was already kind of teetering on this being a very winning in a way that did not feel fully sustainable even if it was like they were doing some seriously good stuff painted myself into

1:04:08Robert Mays: unfortunate corner with this one where I love Josh Downs and I had so much fun watching the Colts offense over the first half of last year that I have no choice but to just do the I pretend I do not see it with the downside case like I I just don't have a choice like it's just unload every meme while we talk about the Colts that's a the team the the Colts are having to tell themselves the story of all the ones we're just we're going to discuss here the Colts one is the one where I'm like, I'm in like, that's fine. Like I'm going to keep telling myself that one as well. I'm going to live in the Colts delusion or potential delusion along with them because I don't want to accept or face the alternate reality.

1:04:49Robert Mays: Josh Downs not being good enough and not seeing that version of the Colts again, because I want it back. I'm not ready to buy in yet. But like I said, a week ago, I was rolling my eyes really hard at what the Colts were doing. and Daniel Jones, at least being healthy enough to go through practice without limitations is it's a very encouraging step in the right direction. I'm not ready to put it to the side completely, but it's a hell of a lot better than Daniel Jones throwing to a backup tight end while Anthony Richardson gets the reps. So it's a nice doing the Kirk cousins. Like I can't be under center.

1:05:23Robert Mays: We must run the entire offense out of the pistol post Achilles injury. Like there, there are worse versions of this than the one that we are seeing in Indianapolis. us. If you want, as long as we're telling ourselves optimistic things, if I'm Chris Ballard, I'm in that building saying he is like, he's such a better athlete than he gets credit for. Like DJ can beat this quicker than your average quarterback. And maybe that's true. I'm not ready to get there yet. And like I said, even if DJ is healthy, now we're still worried about Alec Pierce. How's Josh Downs going to do? How does this all look?

1:05:57If you take the Michael Pittman Jenga piece out of the offense. Is Jonathan Taylor going to be pissed off each day that he doesn't have his own contract extension? I don't know. That's all. Those are all things worth keeping in mind. But the fact that Daniel Jones can run the offense is it's way better than where I thought we'd be a month or two ago.

1:06:15Dave Helman: And I think that is a good point about him being an athlete, like the two quarterbacks that like we bring up recently for the Achilles thing are Aaron Rodgers and Kirk Cousins, and they were both like 35 plus and not really all that. I mean, Rodgers was a pretty good athlete early in his career but by that point not at 40 yeah not at 40 and kirk cousins never really was and so of course those guys were going to look different so like i could take

1:06:35Robert Mays: offense to that by the way he would claim that he didn't run because he chose not to i promise you

1:06:41Dave Helman: yeah that's he's a confident man to have played as good at nfl quarterback as he has for a long time so i get it i get it but i think with daniel jones it's like he also doesn't even need to necessarily be at peak athleticism like he just needs to be a credible enough athlete that some of their RPO and gun stuff can just like he can end the boot stuff to like freak defenses out just enough and that's really all that it has to be for the offense to work together I think my only issue is really not even necessarily how healthy he looks off of this injury it's that he's hurt all the time like he's basically never had a fully healthy season in the NFL except for the 20 what was it 22 when you know Dable was there like that's really the only time that he's been incredibly healthy so I think even my concern is that even if they can recreate September of 2025 I just wonder if we're going to end up in a similar place by November of 2025

1:07:31Robert Mays: just another thing that I'm pretending isn't real so let's just bypass that let's stick in the AFC with potential AFC contenders I'm going to go with the Buffalo Bills and this is the one where literally somebody said it this week Josh Allen on with Joe Brady with Kevin Clark if you keep knocking at the door eventually it's going to open that is the story the bills have to tell themselves they have no choice but to believe that is true and i this is one where i'm kind of with them right like i i think i've always kind of saw it seen it this way we're like all you can do is just keep getting close and hope that one of those years you break through it's not guaranteed that's going to happen but if you're the bills derek that's really the only story you can tell yourselves is that everything that happened, falling short the ways that we have last year when all the quarterbacks weren't playing, the fact that we couldn't do it that year, that wasn't our only chance.

1:08:27Robert Mays: Like if we keep getting close, if we're still a lead on offense because we have this guy at quarterback with the tweaks that we're making on defense, if we keep getting close, eventually this is going to happen for us. That's not guaranteed to be true, but that is the story that the Bills are having to tell themselves.

1:08:42Dave Helman: I mean, I will say the fact that they've done it for this long does speak to a pretty impressive level of like maturity and just like perseverance, like almost every other elite quarterback, even if the quarterback still generally plays at that level, like their teams have had these ups and downs, like Lamar Jackson has missed the playoff a number of times, like Joe Burrow and all their struggles over the past handful of years, like being an elite quarterback and being a guy that can consistently get you there doesn't always work that way. But the fact that the team had always found some way to kind of come back and be the same level of team that they had been was incredibly impressive.

1:09:15Dave Helman: I mean, I think Shiel Kapati on his podcast this week said that it was like I saw his tweet. Yeah. Was it like over the last six years they've been top four in EPA per drive? That is that is the level of consistency that feels almost impossible. And again, I think if you had just said if we had just said that X team was top four in EPA per play as an offense for six years in a row, almost all of us would have been like, yes, they've won the Super Bowl at least one time. And so it's to your point. It's like they've been of the quality of team to do it. And so you kind of just have to have the like the wherewithal to keep continuing to do it.

1:09:48Dave Helman: And I do think the team is good enough to get there again this year because, again, he's as good as he is. I at least appreciate and I don't want to contradict myself too badly because I do still think the way the way it all went down with Sean McDermott leaving. I didn't love the way Terry Bagula handled that. And like that whole transition to Joe Brady was very odd. Having said all of that, I appreciate that the Bills are acting as if there's urgency. And some of that is their own doing, right? Like you have to trade for DJ Moore because your other decisions at wide receiver haven't really panned out.

1:10:24But there's clearly urgency in the building from switching head coaches, bringing in a new play caller on the defensive side of the ball. You swing a big trade for a proven veteran receiver. The Bills always bring in veteran defenders, but they did it again this year. So I can at least appreciate that there's a yearning there. Like you can feel how badly the Bills want to get it done. I don't know if that means anything, but it's better than being optimistic in August, just rolling the ball back out there and like, well, we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas. Like, no, the Bills are trying shit.

1:10:58So at least there's that.

1:11:01Robert Mays: The other story that they've had to tell themselves or they have been telling themselves for many of the last five years, I think she'll allude to this as well. If we have Josh Allen on an offensive line, we will be an elite offense. That has been consistently true. And I think the other wrinkle to that, and this is the difference from the Chiefs, right? The Chiefs, I think that was the thought process post-Buck Super Bowl. If we keep this guy upright, we will be great on offense. But the wrinkle to that is, as the corollary of if we have the offensive line, is also if we have a running game that is in coherence with that offensive line.

1:11:37Robert Mays: The Chiefs have not. The Chiefs have offensive line talent. Their running game has never been to the point that they can lean on it as a byproduct of that offensive line in the way that the Bills have been able to over the last few years. So the Bills bet that if we have a high-level offensive line and a high-level running game with this quarterback, he can be throwing to end of the roster guys and we're still going to be a playoff team. That has mostly been true. And I think the hope this year on top of the defensive transformation, which I'm sure we'll talk about a million times between now and the start of the season, I'll be in Buffalo on can't keep it all straight next Monday.

1:12:13Robert Mays: The other part of it is the DJ more element of it. And I I'm open to the idea that we have not seen the best version of Dalton Kincaid in the NFL. I am. I am open to that idea because are we doing basis? Are we doing I'm ready to get hurt again? because that's that's let's do it let's let's try i'm ready to get hurt again that's let's roll i am choosing to believe that we get the kyle pitts breakout season from last year for dalton kincaid next year if he stays healthy let's just write it down right now that's been the problem is he had could not stay in he got hurt last year before he got hurt last year his per route metrics were really really good so him dalton kincaid healthy dj more in the building plus all the other things that made the bills offense go let's roll I'm ready to get hurt again officially Derek you got any more stories the teams are telling themselves I've got one more quick one

1:13:11Dave Helman: and this was one that we've beaten to death but the Chiefs are telling themselves that the pass catchers are fine and that last year just things just didn't go our way and that was it which like I kind of get like Xavier Worthy's shoulder exploded on like the third play of the NFL season and so I kind of get why they are willing to tell themselves this all the Rashi Rice stuff I you

1:13:29Robert Mays: You don't get to be like all our receivers are hurt when the receivers weigh less than me.

1:13:34Dave Helman: When they all, yes, when they all weigh 180 pounds. Listen, this is not a story that I personally believe. I've been on this show many times being like they need to get bigger. They needed to be the Mike Evans team, something. They needed to do something. And obviously they didn't. But they are trying to tell themselves that kind of what you were just saying with the Buffalo Bills is that if we have an offensive line that can keep our quarterback upright and we have a run game, which they've hopefully just paid for with Kenneth Walker. Like, I think part of, I think we can argue that some of the run game construction issues with the Chiefs are because they can't stretch the field.

1:14:06Dave Helman: So teams can just load the box because they don't respect them. And I think that was partly true. But if teams are going to do that now, Kenneth Walker might break off a 60 yard run. And so there's at least some element of that you can buy. But they are really just telling themselves that Xavier Worthy is going to be healthy and take a step, which again, I think given that he's a little bit undersized, I'm going to have questions about. And that like Tyquan Thornton can play a significant amount of snaps and that's going to be okay. I struggle to believe that, but that is what they are trying to tell themselves.

1:14:33Robert Mays: Are you plus or minus 165 right now, Derek? You've been in the weight room this offseason.

1:14:38Dave Helman: Yeah, I am currently 156 right now. I've actually lost a little bit of weight.

1:14:45Robert Mays: So you're not that far off from where Xavier Worthy is.

1:14:48Dave Helman: Well, but that's the thing. I usually use the NFL season as my bulking period. So by the end of the NFL season, I might be like Xavier Worthy. That's such a great euphemism for what the NFL season is. I'm going to be like not taking my care of it. It's also the bulking period for Dave and I. It's just in a different way. I'm not eating like an asshole. I'm bulking. That's what it is. This is the thing. It's like during the season, I don't want to think about like this is when I eat and this is when I do this. It's like, no, I'm just going to eat when I eat and it's going to be what it is. And I'm just going to be in the weight room and it's going to be enough.

1:15:20Robert Mays: Yeah, the Chiefs one, we've talked about it a million times. I think it's, that's one that you absolutely should include in something like this. I'll believe it when I see it. Like the fact that the Kenneth Walker thing and the healthy Xavier worthy is enough. Maybe it is. Maybe, maybe it is. Cyrus Allen having an injury scare shouldn't be a news cycle. Like if you feel good about your wide receiver or whatever.

1:15:43Dave Helman: Yeah. There should be no way.

1:15:44Robert Mays: I don't know if you guys saw the clip of it. Patrick Mahomes under center, no play action drop back today during practice.

1:15:51Dave Helman: Okay. everybody's going back to the old ways the sensation that's sweeping the nation Dave you got any more these are we've beat these to death too I don't really feel the need to talk about them in detail but because of the show it's worth saying the Bengals and Cowboys are telling themselves that if their defenses are units if they are NFL units instead of smoking craters in the ground they have a shot to make a lot of noise i we've said it 10 million times though but like they are apps and and they absolutely believe that and maybe they should based on what i've seen out of dexter lawrence at camp so far and which one do you believe more that's what i want to ask which one do you believe more don't make me great it's a great don't make me choose i don't know i i'm excited about both and therefore terrified about both for basically the same

1:16:42Robert Mays: reasons kind of in the same boat i i have to i have to say the cowboys because of the christian parker element of it like i i can't back off now you know like i have been talking about this guy for like three years as somebody that i think has a chance to be a really really good nfl defensive coordinator and so i getting gun shy a month before the season starts and starting to be wishy-washy about that it would just be a lack of courage that even for me would be embarrassing

1:17:10Dave Helman: well to defend you even if even if you didn't have that about christian parker at least he's like a complete unknown right like maybe al golden isn't like the worst play call in the world but like we have more of a sense of what he is christian parker we saw him be the coordinator

1:17:22Robert Mays: for one of the worst defenses in the league last year we we that that happened right with whereas

1:17:26Dave Helman: christian parker clean slate maybe he's got something i do i do have the christian parker

1:17:32Robert Mays: caleb bounce thing i i'm in i'm bought in let's see how this whole thing goes i'm i'm ready i i just i don't want to speak on it and have it disappear into the ether but i i would like it very much if both of those teams were as entertaining as they look right now by the way the core the the parallel to the chief cyrus allen thing is uh it shouldn't me sitting there talking about the cowboys defense and the capabilities of the cowboys defense should not depend on the excitement around Jay Sean Barham to the degree that it currently does. That is fair. But it does. But it does. But it does. It's a very Cowboys thing for the third round pick to be a household name five days into training camp.

1:18:18Robert Mays: Third round off-ball linebacker that is kind of a tweener, has like a weird skill set. It's a tried and true part of every single Dallas Cowboys offseason. We get excited about that guy and then it never happens. then we're what like four years in with uh with maris leofau and it's like i amaze he an off linebacker is he an edge player like i hope we don't follow the same exact path for him that was all before christian parker buddy it's all different now it wasn't before you though you were having to live that life for a little bit more than i'd care to relive right now i got two other really quick ones we've talked about this one a little bit but this is one of the plainer ones of the entire offseason.

1:18:57Robert Mays: The Broncos are telling themselves that we were a Jalen Waddle away from the Super Bowl.

1:19:01Dave Helman: Oh, yeah, 100%.

1:19:03Robert Mays: And we talked about Waddle on the show yesterday. Yeah. Yeah, I've not listened to yesterday's show, but I will be doing that while I'm in the car today. It's, I mean, this is a clear and easy one. Like, that's all they did. So, Bo Nix coming back, Bo Nix being healthy and Jalen Waddle being on the team is enough for us to potentially be the best team in the AFC. I don't think it's ridiculous.

1:19:26Dave Helman: No, and Dave and I even joked about it. The offense doesn't even need to look different. You just need to give the snaps that were going to Marvin Mims and Troy Franklin to Jalen Waddell, and poof, the offense is great.

1:19:38Robert Mays: Derek, I want to ask you this, because we've, among all of the drumbeats, and you guys are going to talk about training camp storylines a little bit later this week. We're going to try to scoop all of those up in one net in one show, because we haven't done a ton of that, as we've sprinkled those in here and there with the other shows that we've done. How much do you buy into the Pat Bryan is going to eat into like the Courtland Sutton snaps and roll thing and whether that is potentially true and whether that would be a good thing for the Broncos?

1:20:04Dave Helman: So him eating into Courtland Sutton rolls specifically, I think it does make some things interesting. But I actually I brought up Pat Bryan on maybe our second year's X Factor or something show. One of one of those shows where we would bring up players like that. I actually do think it's kind of important for the Broncos to have like a bigger bodied guy like him who can he can play a little bit in the slot he can play a little bit as a Z if he wants to and and if he can take a little bit of the load off of Cortland Sutton having to be your dig runner and having to be your nine ball runner on every single play like if you can actually potentially use Cortland Sutton in some different ways or just take him off the field and give him a rest like Pat Bryant potentially taking that step is nice and I think maybe he can do it and it seems like they really like him like it seems like they are pretty bought into what his skill set can be in

1:20:50Robert Mays: that offense last one i had this is one that seemingly every year two number one pick quarterback their team has to tell him to tell themselves coming into year two the titans are telling themselves that cam ward is the next year two turnaround story the titans are telling themselves that brian dable is our ben johnson brian dable is our sean mcveigh for year two Jared Goff, that is what the Titans are having to tell themselves right now about how this season is going to go. And that's what Derek is also telling himself.

1:21:23Dave Helman: I am extremely telling myself that. I mean, I've already, again, Dave and I were talking a little bit about Cornell Tate yesterday. Like, he feels like the type of receiver that can have a cascade effect on everybody else. It slots in Wondell Robinson nice. Io Manor can be more of like a third receiver. If all of that happens, I think I have enough faith that this will go well. but I am having to tell myself that story because I'm looking at the center and right guard situation and I'm like, this is my version of with the Colts. Like, I don't see it. Well, with the center and right guard and the Titans, I'm just like, I don't see it.

1:21:53Dave Helman: Cam Ward's going to be fine.

1:21:54Robert Mays: I'll say this. I mean, this will plenty of time to talk about shit like this over the next month or so, but the Titans lose Bill Callahan, right? And so that would typically be a like, oh shit, you know, we lost one of the best offensive line coaches of all time. And what is that going to look like the guy one of the assistants in the NFL that I think is we have not talked about enough and has been drastically underrated both for the job that he did and then in talking to other coaches just like the reputation he has with guys that he's worked with in the past is Carmen Brasillo who's the offensive line coach for the Titans he I mean when in the Giants last year and the Giants over the last couple years after he got there after that staff in Vegas got fired the Josh McDaniels staff I mean the Giants offensive line was truly one of the worst units in professional football before he got there.

1:22:39Robert Mays: And there were some personnel improvements, but the personnel improvements were like Jermaine Illuminor playing the best football of his life. It wasn't, we drafted a superstar in the top five, the guy they drafted in the top 10 didn't work prior to him getting there. And they needed Jermaine Illuminor for it all to come together. Like this was an offensive line that was Jermaine Illuminor, Greg Van Roten, like John Runyon is a very mid tier often or a free agent pickup. But this is not a group of five first round talents that they were getting to play at a pretty decent level with the Giants over the last couple of years.

1:23:16Robert Mays: Like Carmen Priscilla did a very good job of elevating that group. And so even if there are some personnel concerns about where the Titans offensive line sits on the interior right now, that's one where I think people will be surprised at the floor lifting ecosystem that exists in Tennessee because they have an offensive line coach who has shown an ability to do it. I hope you're right. I, so many teams, it's like, I'm holding little butterflies in my hands, just hoping, hoping that this all means something in a month when this stuff, you know, goes live. All right. That is all we've got for today.

1:23:55Robert Mays: Like I mentioned, Derek and Dave are going to be chatting about some free, some training camp storylines that have popped up over the first week or so of camp on tomorrow's show. I will be in Baltimore and driving to Philadelphia. So I appreciate those guys holding it down. We will be back tomorrow. Until then, appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

1:24:52We'll see you next time. Click kişi site. it