The under-26 non-QB player draft

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1:55Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Really good one on tap for you guys today. We did a little draft today. Me, Derek, and Dave, who is back with us. We picked our top 24 players under the age of 25. The cutoff for this is any player who will be 25 years old on November 1st of this year. So if you turn 26 after that date, you were eligible for this draft. All non-quarterbacks, that's how we wanted to do it, just because we thought it might be easier to stack up the players that way. We get into some of the other rules when both of those guys come on, but those are the general parameters.

2:30Robert Mays: Really, really enjoyed this. Had a little bit of strategy, a little bit of gamesmanship, but for the most part, we just picked the best players we could possibly think of at each one of these spots. Just a quick reminder, if you guys are not in the Discord, our merch poll is currently open. All of the designs that are the finalists for the merch poll, those are available in the Discord right now for you guys to vote on. So if you are a member of the Discord, please vote. If you are not a member of the Discord, now is a great time to sign up. The winner of that poll is going to get, we're going to move forward with them as an athletic football show t-shirt.

3:05Robert Mays: That's the plan right now. They're going to win a prize. So we have some really fun ones that are some of the options. So encourage you guys to go check that out right now. For now, let's get to the 24 under 25 draft with me, Derek and Dave right now.

3:29Robert Mays: We are back. We are back with the three man weave. Very excited to have everybody back on the show. Dave is back from his honeymoon. And I'll be honest with you. You look like a man who's back from his honeymoon. Do I look tan or burned? No, no, you look tan. Okay, great. You look tan. Thank you. Yes. You look like you're properly sun-kissed. Your hair looks great. Like, you look like a man who just had a really good time in Greece for a couple weeks and was in a really good place. And now struggling to turn my brain back on. But yeah, it was amazing. I'm relieved to hear that because, like, Carmen, my wife, gets to say that into a microphone.

4:02That's cool. Your wedding ring? Yeah. First time? she's she's italian american like she tans and it looks amazing when she hangs out on a beach and i'm just fighting for my life trying not to burn to a crisp so it's a relief to to hear that i

4:15Robert Mays: pulled it off i was really pissed off because when we went to coachella this year i was really really uh vigilant about my sunscreen and i was fine i was in the desert for like three days nothing and then when i went to northern europe this summer there was a heat wave and i got completely toasted in amsterdam you weren't you were caught off guard i was not i was so pissed about it i That's not where you're supposed to get some of them. Amsterdam has multiple meanings. Well, we could talk about that later. But yes, I was not prepared for that. So I'm glad you at least took the right precautions.

4:44Robert Mays: At least you came back for a fun show today. I am very much looking forward to this and have been for a while. We are picking 24 players, our favorite or best 24 players, under the age of 25 heading into the 2026 NFL season. Wow. 24, under 25, 426. Look at that. the little wrinkle with this and beller laid this down yesterday and it felt kind of arbitrary but we're gonna go with it i think it's half the season so that makes sense november 1st we're saying so november 1st is the cutoff if you turn 26 after november 1st of this year you were eligible for this draft there were a couple guys that were like right on the line penny seoul was close he's like early a little bit earlier than that sauce gardner was like right around that range garrett wilson turns 26 before that deadline and then the one guy who barely made it is jared versts by like three days and so where there's there were some guys derrick they were right on line was there anybody that you were disappointed by were you like excited to stack him up on your board and you he just didn't make the cut for whatever reason um so first i was scared about

5:50Dave Helman: because he was close on the line jack campbell is barely barely beyond the line i i would have put him like I definitely would have taken him at some point in this draft like top 24 for sure where that would have landed I'm not sure I almost threw my phone when I realized that Penesul's birthday is like three weeks before the cutoff because I had grand designs for Penesul that were all for naught we don't have to get into this now and I kind of don't want really

6:15Robert Mays: want to tip my hand but there are some positions like tackle was one of them where if you remove Penesul it kind of throws everything else out of whack like it there it gets dry pretty quickly And so it might change the way you have to approach something like this. And there were a couple other positions like that, where I think there's going to be some guys stacked near the top as we get a little bit deeper. Maybe you have to do a little bit of projecting with players that are a little bit younger. I'm really interested by a couple of things here. I'm interested by how many, do we get new rookies?

6:43Robert Mays: Is there anybody that gets picked in this draft that we've never seen play? I have a feeling if that happens, Derek will be the one to do it.

6:51Dave Helman: Oh, okay. I only even thought of one or two guys that I would maybe even get there with.

6:56Robert Mays: You just have like the scouting brain. It's just like we're shooting for massive. Shooting for the stars, baby. Exactly. Exactly. So it doesn't matter if I've never seen him. I'm shooting for upside here. So that's something that I'm interested in. And I'm interested in how many guys that were rookies last year. Because we had some even guys that had like weird seasons last year. There are a couple players that I think we'll talk about here that probably would have been like no doubt about it. Top 15-ish guys if we had done this a year ago. And now I think there are some bigger questions around them and where a couple of those players go.

7:26Robert Mays: I'm very curious about. Again, I don't want to give away who I think those are because some potential values here a little bit further down the road. The other wrinkle, no quarterbacks for obvious reasons. Like I was starting to stack it up with quarterbacks. And it's like if we're building a team, wouldn't all the quarterbacks go first? That's no fun. So we decided to do non-quarterbacks because I think that's the right way to approach it. Can we have a brief quarterback conversation before we like jump into the real draft, though? Because I was curious. I think in some order, if you're drafting quarterbacks, it's Drake May and Caleb Williams are pretty obviously the two.

7:57And then Jaden's under the line, too. And so is C.J. Stroud. And I'm very curious about how the other two stack up. Like, I think you would take Drake and Caleb over C.J. and Jaden at this point in time. But how those other two guys stack up is very interesting. You would take Caleb Williams over Jaden Daniels right now.

8:13Robert Mays: Absolutely. I don't think it's an unreasonable stance. I'm just the fact that you would. Look, I know I'm compromised by where I went to school, but I liked Caleb even in that draft. I loved Caleb and the season that he had. I was a believer coming out of his rookie season and obviously what he did last year. It's not to shit on Jaden Daniels, but I've been in on Caleb Williams this entire time, so I have no problem saying it. I just felt like if we had done it that way and you were truly trying to pick the players you would start a team with, the quarterbacks would just get overdrafted and it kind of defeats the purpose of the exercise.

8:45Robert Mays: And so similar to that, I mentioned this in the open as well, but we've done stuff like this before where we have taken contracts into account. We're not doing that because I feel like it just gets a little bit muddy when you're doing that. Some of these guys just got paid. And so that changes things versus guys that are on rookie deals. And I also think this is a way larger conversation. In a world where cap manipulation is easier than ever, should we be accounting for contracts as much as we would have been in a different era when it comes to this? like certain guys making 40 plus million dollars a year, your JS ends of the world.

9:18Robert Mays: I think 10 years ago when we didn't have a million void years on every single contract, maybe you would be a little bit more hesitant to take a guy like that before somebody on a rookie deal. I think that gap is probably closed enough Derek, where it just makes it less fun. I'd rather just pick the best players and go with that.

9:33Dave Helman: I, because that's, that's like the only way I was going to approach this type of exercise anyway, was just who are the best players. And then I would like, to it even if we had done that no i really wouldn't have i would have like maybe made one or two tweaks of like yeah this guy already got paid for 40 million dollars versus this second year player is not making anything but like for the most part i would have stacked up my board almost

9:52Robert Mays: the same so this just makes it a lot easier for me we did a random order generator so i am picking first derek is picking second dave is picking third we are not doing a snake draft solely for content quality like i just don't think it's very fun to pick two guys in a row in a three-person draft. We've always done that when we've done these. I will acknowledge that makes it a little bit less fair, but the whole point of this is to snipe guys other people want. And when you're picking two in a row, every fourth, fifth pick, it makes it less fun. So that's the reason we're not doing a snake draft.

10:23Robert Mays: I understand that that might hurt the integrity of the fake exercise that we're doing. I'm okay with that. Oh no, whatever will I do if the integrity of my fake young player team is compromised? You can bitch about it later. You can complain to Beller and Katie. All right. So I have the first overall pick here. It came down to probably like two or three guys that I was considering. Really? Yeah. I just don't even think there's a conversation if you're picking first. I don't think there is either. I landed on the answer pretty quickly, but I think there were two other players that I was just like, all right, I would at least think about this guy in this spot.

10:58Robert Mays: I'm going with Will Anderson Jr. Who are the other ones? I'm not going to say. Oh, we can't. We don't want to give you. One of them might be on the board when he comes again. I'm not going to say. Okay, that's fine. But Will Anderson is so obviously the answer. I don't know if he's so obviously the answer. I think he is the correct answer. And I landed on it after like five minutes of deliberation. I wasn't sitting there going back and forth like all day yesterday. I was planning this out. Will Anderson is, I don't even know how old he is. He's under the line. It's all that mattered to me. He's 24.

11:26Robert Mays: He turns 25 on September 2nd of this year. He would have been the defensive player of the year in like 90 % of historical seasons. He's one of the best defensive players in football, truly leveled up last year, is a two-way player in the way that I think makes him super valuable in an exercise like this, where he's an incredible run defender, he's a power player, but also really added to his pass rush bag last year. And the other part that I do think matters, and this is a fake exercise, but the reason that the Texans were as comfortable trading up for him as they were in that draft is that he's just like a bulletproof locker room presence.

12:05Robert Mays: Like he changes the complexion of what your team feels like when he's on it. And so if I'm starting a team with any non-quarterback, that's at least one point I'm taking into consideration if I'm taking Will Anderson. So that is my pick with the number one overall pick. I think that was the right pick.

12:22Dave Helman: I agree. I mean, he's a top five NFL player, period, regardless of what we want to do with age. And I think it's entirely possible we haven't even seen close to his best foot. Like, I think he still has a gear to him because he's just so young and continues to get better.

12:35Robert Mays: Top five NFL player sounds really aggressive. But then if you actually start to, like, dig into it a little bit, I don't think it's that crazy.

12:43Dave Helman: Again, especially if you, like, remove a little bit. Some quarterbacks are hard just because the value proposition. But I think if you remove quarterbacks, he is, like, with a bullet top five player. All right.

12:52Robert Mays: So I'm going with Will Anderson, number one. Derek, you're second.

12:55Dave Helman: I am. So I feel like this, if we're trying to do like the build a team aspect already gets into a little bit of gamesmanship in terms of like who's going to be left and stuff like that. I think I'm still ultimately going to take who I think here is probably the best player in my mind. And that is Puka Nakua.

13:12Robert Mays: I think they're obviously one of the other players I considered with the first overall pick and did not select.

13:17Dave Helman: And yeah, he's I have a top tier of like four or five players that like Puka Nakua, I think was absolutely in that tier. And he, to me, just again, talking about Will Anderson having gotten better every year, Puka Nakua came into the league as a really damn good receiver and has only added things to his game. He's a much better sideline presence than he used to be. He's a much better route runner than he used to be. I think he's a better vertical threat than he used to be. Like he went from this like kind of specific bully ball underneath, make some tough catches over the middle of the field. The yak guy to like he's kind of as close to Jamar Chase as you can get.

13:51Dave Helman: Jamar Chase, if he was in this exercise, I would take him here. But like, that's as close as you can get for the purposes of this exercise. So I'm taking Pukunukua. He also, statistical thing that I'm going to point out, he currently holds the NFL record for yards per game. Like, obviously, it's only been three seasons, but receiving yards per game, he holds the record right now for a career.

14:11Robert Mays: I 100 % agree with like all of that. What he did in like one-on-one outside the numbers situations this year as a vertical player compared to what he looked like over his first couple of years. Like adding that to his bag is remarkable. And I was actually talking to somebody in LA about this a couple of weeks ago, just kind of catching up with people. And we were talking about how you find explosive plays in the modern NFL and how, if we're going to live in a world where there's going to be space between the second and third level, because teams are playing so much shell players that can take, make catches in that area and turn them into explosives with run after catch.

14:46Robert Mays: He is one of the best possible examples of that. And I think that's where like you comparing him to Jamar Chase, people might be like, what? Because Jamar Chase is really explosive in a way we traditionally understand. And I think Puka is an explosive player that is kind of built for this era. And so the explosive element isn't that far off from like the guys at the tippy, tippy, tippy top. But because he's so well built for how the game is played right now, he's able to affect it in a similar way. And so him being explosive and a vertical down the field outside the numbers threat on top of everything else he was doing over the first couple of years is wild.

15:21Robert Mays: Like his multifaceted impact on the game now is just crazy. I agree with everything y 'all are saying. And I understand that this is a fantasy team. It's not real. But has Puka's speed run of being kind of an unreliable guy over the last six months affected the way that you thought about this at all? Has he ever been unreliable on the football field? I guess I guess would be my. That is that's about how I would come back at that.

15:44Dave Helman: His only on the field unreliability is like, how long will he stay on it? Given the way that he plays. But I still think that he generally when he's out there is the scariest offensive player that you can take at this spot.

15:56Robert Mays: I don't think we should ignore everything that has happened. I also think that as of right now, it has not impacted anything about what he has been as a player in any of the last three seasons. And so at this point, I think I'm kind of willing to just treat it that way. I think that's fine. And I, you know, he's, he's been at voluntary workouts. He hasn't missed anything meaningful this off season with the Rams, but doing this exercise, I tried to approach it as like, I'm building a franchise. And I think ultimately I would still use a big pick on Puka Nakua, but that was in my brain when I was thinking about it, instead of just being like with a bullet, no doubt about it.

16:33One of the like best receiver in the NFL. Whereas after from December until now, I'm just like, ah, do I, is that, is that? a foundational cornerstone pick that I want to make.

16:44Robert Mays: And I think one fair point to go along with that, if that didn't exist, he'd be paid already. Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. If that stuff didn't exist, he'd be paid already. So I do think that that is at least in some capacity, probably in the back of the Rams' minds as well. But as of right now, I'm fine with Derek approaching it the way that he did. All right, so you're up at three after Will Anderson and Puka. Who are you going with? I really, I thought Derek might make this a little easier on me by going defense. But you know what? I'm not going to be swayed off of what I want to do at the start of this thing.

17:15I shouldn't give y 'all my, my MO this early, but looking at this, and I've just, I've got a list of guys that meet the age qualification that every single position.

17:27Robert Mays: Oh, interesting. I just stacked it up like totally vertically. I didn't do, I probably should have done it that way. I have a list of players at every position to choose from, and I'm going for scarcity. Like, I think the most important thing to me is the badass that I can't get later. And like, for instance, like Pukenuku is an incredible player. I have a long list of receivers that I would feel good about drafting for this exercise. And so that was kind of my thought process while I was doing this. And that's why with my third pick, I'm taking Byron Murphy the second. Whoa. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

18:02Robert Mays: That's what I'm doing. I. That's not where I thought defense meant when we were. I also did not think that that was going to happen. So I'm with you because when I stacked it up, I essentially have like a board of like 30 guys with like 20 honorable mentions behind it. In doing that, there are not that many defensive tackles. There's like two. That I would have in this conversation. That is probably the thinnest group among all of the positions. Maybe safety. I would put safety in there too. There aren't that many safeties that I think I would have in that conversation. So I completely understand that part of the process.

18:37I still am shocked that you would do this. I think he's a bad mother.

18:41Robert Mays: I really wanted him, but I thought I could get it with like my seventh pick.

18:45Dave Helman: I thought this would be a little bit later for me as well. I had him in like my third or fourth tier players. He's 23 years old. He's, I think he's one of the most underrated pieces of what the Seahawks did last year.

18:56Robert Mays: And that's like 12 minutes on him earlier this week. I've been on vacation. I'm sorry. I agree. I think we agree with you. I think that's the point. I'm buying low. Like I think Byron Murphy is still an ascending player. I think he is a badass. There's another very obvious D tackle that you could choose from here, but I'm just, I'm a huge fan of his game. He's one of 60 tackles last season that had 60 plus pressures. He had an amazing number of sacks for an interior defensive lineman. He's obviously a monster against the run. And I guess, I think he turns 24 during training camp or close to it.

19:30Like he is a young, young player. And if this is buying on further potential or buying on the idea that he hasn't even hit his ceiling, I'm cool with that. But again, scarcity is what I'm after here. And finding a D tackle like that who can just control things and wreck shop for you, it's really, really hard to do. And yeah, like I think there's a handful of guys you could argue are better players, but I feel comfortable I can address those positions later on.

19:57Robert Mays: I think there's a good chunk of guys I think you could say are better players when it comes to being like a high-end impact guy. But I really wanted him later. Like, I'll just peek a tiny bit behind the curtain. I have like 10 guys that I've highlighted where it's like if the draft was my ideal draft, this is how it would go. He was one of those players. And I think it was in part to have a conversation about what he allows you to do defensively if he's part of what you have. Like, my thought was I pair him with Will Anderson Jr. I'm f***ing cooking. Sure are. And so the fact that I really did want him, but I thought I could get him later.

20:30Robert Mays: You did throw a wrench at things. How do you feel about this, Derek?

20:33Dave Helman: I mean, it's high for me. He would have been more, if I'm looking at my vertical board, closer to like 15th, 16th level player. But I do think that he's incredible. 15th? Yeah, that's bad. I'm in the same boat. No way. I think he's a very—

20:48Robert Mays: There are a lot of elite players in this group.

20:52Dave Helman: That's what it is to me. Byron Murphy, I think to me is like a Pro Bowl plus player. I think there are a handful of players that I have above him who to me feel like that is an all pro and I can write it in stone. I think Byron Murphy is an all pro player for the record. But like I said, on top of that, I mean, there are a few there are several positions where scarcity is going to be a problem, but there are just there are so many positions where the guy that I could get fourth or fifth is not that steep of a drop off to me. but interior defensive line is one where I'm like, okay, there's like two guys I feel good about here or else I'm just not drafting one.

21:29All right, so here we go.

21:30Robert Mays: We got to keep this moving, but that is the first shocker of the draft. And it honestly makes my decision a little bit harder because I assumed that the next two guys off the board, I thought I knew who they were going to be. So now I have to potentially shift what I'm going to do. You're welcome.

21:58all right i'm gonna i'm gonna take jsn now okay what i'm assuming this is one of your other

22:03Dave Helman: players who you had thought maybe you would consider for several yeah i agree he was also in my i had a tier of four players at the top he was one of them that's that's kind of where i am

22:12Robert Mays: as well and i'm i'm curious if the guy you take next is going to be the fourth player that i had in that tier. And I actually think I think it is. But I had an idea of how I was going to go. I thought Will Anderson, JSN and Puka would be the first three guys. I just that was my assumption just based on how I had stacked it up. And I actually think that receiver is a little bit thinner than you're making it out to be when it comes to like the players. Because I think that Puka and JSN are I think they represent one tier receiver. I think there are probably two guys I would have in the next tier down and one of them i think has like real questions about him sure and then i actually think beyond that it gets like pretty thin for me like pretty quickly like it'll depend on what you think of like a lad mcconkey you know guys like that uh where ted roll mcmillan goes i think will be interesting when derek takes him 10th overall we'll know but i that part of the reason that i was kind of over indexing on receivers and actually had one other guy that i was going to maybe overdraft a little bit for this reason is that I do think that there are some kind of teardrops there quicker than you might think.

23:19Robert Mays: And with JSN, like, I think there's a world where I would take JSN over Puka for this reason. I would believe that Puka could do it in a lot of situations. He hasn't, right? It's always been with Matthew Stafford. He's always been with Sean McVay and Matthew Stafford. And so, and I think that the situation that Clint Kubiak created for JSN last year was phenomenal. And he set JSN up to succeed in a lot of specific ways. Like just the structure of the offense is like perfect for a player like JSN. But the idea that you could build by success rate, like one of the most efficient passing games in the NFL last year around this guy getting like 40 % of your team's total air yards.

23:59Robert Mays: There's aren't that many guys in the league you could do that with. Like I truly think that he is a special, special player. And so I didn't think it was gonna go this way, but I'm not necessarily upset about it. All right, Derek. So you're next. And I'm really wondering if I have it pegged who you would take here.

24:16Dave Helman: You know me. And so I'm guessing that you know, and I'm guessing that Dave knew because Dave also thought I was going to go defense. This is where I'm taking Kyle Hamilton.

24:25Robert Mays: So I thought originally I was going to get Kyle Hamilton at four because I thought he might be there at four. That is the group of four players that I had. So we had the same group of four players at the top.

24:33Dave Helman: I, because of the scarcity that we were talking about, I came really close to picking Kyle Hamilton at two, actually. But I think ultimately.

24:40Robert Mays: That's so interesting. I actually think there are more nickels available in this exercise than I thought at first glance. But he is a special player.

24:48Dave Helman: And he's not just a nickel. Like, he can truly be like, he can be an all-pro safety. He can be an all-pro nickel. He can kind of be what I want him to be. And I do think, you know, again, there are a couple of other good nickels, and I can tip my hand here because, you know, I already took one. Like, Cooper DeGene would have been pretty high for me. Cooper DeGene is an awesome player. And if he goes like 10th in this draft, I don't think that that's crazy. Kyle Hamilton, to me, because of the body type, he sets the tone a little bit differently for your defense, just in terms of like how you can really build it and what you can get away with.

25:22Dave Helman: I mean, we've seen Hamilton be special as like a center fielder. We've seen him be good as like a hash safety. We've seen him be good as like a dimebacker. He's obviously an incredible nickel. there was that stretch there I think in 2024 where he was like an edge player and they were just like sending him all the time and he was the best player on the field like he to me is he is such a unique presence on the football field and again I think there are some other good Nichols I actually don't think there's that many good safeties so if I wanted to kick him back there like he kind of is the only guy that's even in the first like three tiers to me as far as that

25:55Robert Mays: position goes kind of had it in my mind that I would build my defense around Will Anderson and kyle hamilton and just keep on rolling sure we'll just let you have it two of the best guys well it's fine it's just i i was i just assumed that jsn would be gone and so i for everything that derrick just said about like how it lets you play a specific way your defense feels a certain way because of him that was very similar to the argument i was going to make and so the fact that now i don't get it anymore is i'm a little bit bummed out i kind of wish i went with him instead everybody's looking for this guy i mean we talk about it all the time and kyle hamilton's the prototype and he was he was very high on my list of priorities for the same reason that byron murphy was i just opted for the guy that affects the line of scrimmage in the quarterback all right so we're you're up at pick six dave who you going with it's gonna make it kind of easy for me i because i i wanted to start with defense i just especially like if quarterbacks not entering into it i'd rather get that sorted you don't have to agree with me i just i feel like i can address offense in a satisfactory manner as we go.

26:59But I wanted to address my defense and just get it.

27:01Robert Mays: There's only one offensive player of the year from last year. That's all I'll say. There's only one guy that won it. So I'm just throwing it out there. Guy who's a candidate for all of that and was defensive rookie of the year is still there. He is eligible for this, as you said, just barely. But at number six, I feel totally fine taking Jared Burse here and just be feeling awesome about my defensive front. He was fifth on my list. I'm fine with that. So he was the guy I had next up in the tier after the four players that we just talked about with Derek. Classic case of like, you know, you cope and try to make sense of your draft class.

27:37It's like, all right, well, if I got Byron Murphy and Jared Verse, who gives a shit what the order is, I'm fine with that.

27:43Dave Helman: So wait, did you have him that high because he's an edge player? Or is that like purely on like ranking him that high as a player? I knew I wanted to prioritize my pass rush and I like Will Anderson was my number one edge player. I had Jared verse behind Will Anderson and I didn't rank these guys like I'm just going off of positions, but I wanted to prioritize edge. And I mean like Byron Murphy and Jared verse were both probably like in the top five or six players that I would have wanted to come out of this with at the top of this. But I think that makes sense, though, because I think edge is another one where it's like there are some nice swings that you can make, but there are fewer of the elite guys in this age range than you might.

28:25100%. I think Anderson and verse are I mean, there are several other guys that I really, really like, but they are the most complete, you know, guys that we've. Yeah, the guys where you really know what you're getting.

28:37Robert Mays: There's a couple of guys like Aiden Hutchinson just misses. Right. So there are a couple of players that just aren't available or aren't eligible for something like this. That's partially why I had verse so high. I also the conversation around Jared verse to me has been so interesting after the miles Garrett trade because I feel like There's like a multifaceted thing that goes on with Jared verse. I'm curious what you think about this Derek There is a gap between what Jared verse does on a pressure level and what the sack totals look like Especially last year. So he was 10th in total pressures among edges last year, but he only had seven and a half sacks And I think rightfully There are people who have mentioned and pointed out that Because of the way he plays is like a power player.

29:12Robert Mays: That's going to push guys back into the quarterback and if we're having more pressures tracked by tracking data, he's going to get a lot of pressures, especially late into the down because inevitably he's going to get there, right? Inevitably, he is going to close that space and get there. But so I think there are some people like, well, his pressure numbers are high because of that. He's not finishing as many plays. But I also think that he's creating a lot for other people and there are like proprietary metrics in the league where it's just about how much you're affecting the pocket, not about your own individual pressures.

29:45Robert Mays: And he ranks very, very high in that to a point where it actually may be more impactful than his pressure numbers would lead you to believe. So if you're building a pass rush, I actually love him as like a piece of an overall pass rush plan, even if the individual sack totals because of the way that he plays are never going to stack up to like the truly elite, elite, elite, tippy top guys in the league.

30:10Dave Helman: But yeah, I think that that's fine because like the Rams are as good a pressure team as they are because he's doing a lot of that stuff and I'll be one because of how much he crushes the pocket but two because how you can use him as a guy who knifes inside as a guy who loops inside and like is taking out guards and stuff like that and also like as far as what he's going to do with the Browns like think about their personnel they have d tackles who are a little bit quicker and a little bit better who can like have some giddy up to go find the quarterback if he creates a pressure same thing with their backers those guys are both really good run and chase players if they're on the blitz like they he's going to a situation where this exact skill set will also be allowed to flourish in the way that it did in LA.

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33:55Robert Mays: all right so this is interesting because i had a receiver that i was thinking about with the seventh pick and now that i took jsn i'm less inclined to take the receiver now we're getting into like a scarcity discussion because there are players at other positions that I think purely on a talent level, I might take here compared to the guy I have in mind. But when you look at the drop off between this person and the rest of the guys at this spot, it's kind of pushing me in this direction.

34:34Robert Mays: I think I'm going to take Joe Walt.

34:36Dave Helman: Okay. I like, I love that. I had him in this tier. This is like, I would have, if I were up on the board here, I also would have been considering him. I like that.

34:44Robert Mays: There are other guys like, and again, I don't want to like, I assume they'll go before I pick again, but I don't want to throw out names just in case. There are other guys that I think if you're just stacking up like elite NFL players, I might still put above Joe all, but especially when you think about left tackles and he could play left tackle, right? He was a college left tackle. He could easily throw him back over there. The list of left tackles under the age of 25 that you would be picking high in this sort of exercise, it doesn't really exist. And so that to me would be the argument. and probably gets knocked for durability stuff at this point.

35:15Robert Mays: He only missed a game his first year, but missed 10 games or 11 games last year. So I think you at least have to bring that up. But I mean, at his best or like the trajectory that he's on, I think he has a chance to like truly be an elite player and probably could do it at left tackle. And there just aren't that many guys on this list that you could say that about. And so I think that's the direction I'm going to go. He would have been my pick at nine if he had lasted that far, for sure. And scarcity is a big part of it. like the list of tackles I feel good about. It's just not very long. Yeah.

35:44Dave Helman: There's like, he's really the only left tackle, like a pure left tackle in this, in this range that I think you could have, could have talked about.

35:50Robert Mays: Yeah. And again, there are other guys that like, I think are more exciting and totally justifiable as picks. I just think that there are alternatives. I can talk myself into later. And I think it's just harder at left tackle than it is at some of those other spots. So I feel pretty good about that. All right. So Derek, you're up at eight. Who are you going with?

36:10Dave Helman: a part of me also wants to go trenches somewhere just because I don't have any of them yet and I feel like I need that at some point but I'm gonna go with who I'm gonna go secondary again I'm gonna take Derek Stingley I think he to me is the best cornerback left on the board he just he his movement skills and his ball skills are as special as it gets at that position like every now and then he's going to be a frustrating player because he just gets fried down the field by like Kayshaun booty for some reason but it's always Kayshaun booty connection man on the 99 % of other plays he is just suffocating like like he is one of those truly like has a Revis like quality or like a Pat Pete type quality to like run the routes for the receivers just in terms of his foot quickness how he's reading it how he's closing on the ball his hip flexibility when he's just got to like flip and turn to the sideline is it's special and I think the way that he attacks the ball you know it's funny because he's not he's not that long like his arms are not crazy like it was one of the knocks coming out of college was that he didn't have super long arms but he just does such an incredible job of timing his attacks and making sure that he's attacking the right spot always getting the ball like he just I think if the ball is in his vicinity he does as good a job as anybody at shutting it down and so he to me is I think there are a couple of other corners who I I would consider like true one-on-one shutdown corners, but I think of that bunch, Stingley is my favorite flavor and pairing him with Hamilton to me is pretty exciting.

37:40Robert Mays: You're getting no arguments from me. I had him in my top 10 of overall guys. I do think that he's one tick above some of the other corners I would consider a little bit later. So no arguments from here. I'm a little surprised that that's Derek's choice because there's another one that he loves very much that's out there that qualifies for this exercise. But you need two corners. so that's true there are two players that i think derek would have circled in this in this general area one of them is a guy who he already picked somebody at that position and so that's i think going to push him a little bit further down there's another one that i thought he might have gone with there and he didn't but i'd assume he thinks he might be able to get him a little bit later all right so you're up at nine david i really hate the position that this has put me in alt is who I wanted at this spot.

38:27And now I feel like I'm stuck in a position where there's a list of names available at some pretty important positions. Secondary loaded with guys that I would be tempted to draft here. And it comes to a point where like, I don't think this guy is the best. No, I know this guy is not the best player available, but I don't want to be stuck in a situation where I haven't addressed this in another round or two and I'm shit out of luck. So what I'm going to do is take Darnell Wright and just not have to worry about

39:04Robert Mays: it. Wow. I, that was another guy I thought I might be able to get a little bit later. I thought I could get him one round later to be clear. I like this feels rich to me and I guess, you know, I'm, I'm disobeying the rules of drafting because you're just supposed to take the best player. but I'm trying to fill out a roster here. And after this, after Darnell Wright goes, there's a couple other tackles that are worth considering, but I think the drop-off starts to get noticeable. And, you know, there are some DBs I really like. I need to draft a receiver, but I think that'll stretch for me, and I'm not sure about tackle.

39:40And Darnell Wright is just a big dancing bear who puts people in the ground, and I feel really good about starting my offensive line with that.

39:48Robert Mays: You don't have to convince me. about drafting. It's a little satisfying to snipe a bear from you too. That's for sure. We talk about just tone setting players and I honestly think it's gone understated how much of a tone setter he was for what that offense was last season. There was so much justifiable talk about what the interior offensive line improvements did for the overall quality of the offense. Group was awesome. But Jonah Jackson playing at the level he played at last year was just, it makes me so happy. the fact that that worked out in the way that it did. But when you watch that offense, and especially the run game, just a percentage of positive plays that happen in part because of what the right tackle was doing.

40:31Robert Mays: Ben Johnson came out and said it last week. He's like, we are a right-handed offense because of what the right tackle does for us. And you see it. You see that manifest when you watch how the offense is constructed. So it might seem a little bit rich, but when you talk about the lack of young tackles that you would draft in this range and what he can do,

40:48Dave Helman: it's not shocking to me Derek it's not rich for me I had 11 players in my top two tiers together Darnell Wright was one of them and you know maybe a little bit of that is scarcity of the position but I I think there are some better overall tackles in the league you know like a Tristan or Penny Sewell maybe their movement skills are slightly better than him I think in terms of purely moving people off their spot Darnell Wright is like kind of his own thing that dude is just what him and Jonah Jackson did together to even some really good defensive tackles at sometimes this season was kind of unique and pretty special.

41:23Dave Helman: So I absolutely have no qualms taking him here. I'm hurt that he's not my pick right now.

41:28Robert Mays: I assume that I might be able to get him a little bit later, and so I am a little bit upset about it. So I'm up now. I'm up now at 10. All right. So there are a couple guys, same sort of conversation, where I think there are a couple guys that just based purely on talent standing within the league now i'm not sure

41:55Robert Mays: all right okay okay all right i'm gonna i'm gonna go with my original plan simply because i do think that there's a significant drop off and i like the way he compliments one of the other picks i already made this is the first time i think i'm like really like really stretching myself i think the alt was a little bit I think this one's probably to a slightly different level

42:17I'm gonna take Abdul Carter oh okay I mean the edge scarcity is real that's and it's completely defensible between I mean he's 22 years old the pressure numbers are what they are like if that's the starting point I know he didn't run away with defensive rookie of the year the way everybody thought he might heading into the season but still so much reason to feel to feel good about

42:39Robert Mays: where he is i went back and watched a bunch this morning just because like all right we know the pressure numbers are crazy right i mean he was he led the nfl on quick pressures last year with 48 only nick bonito had a higher quick pressure rate per next gen than abdell carter had but again like pressure numbers let's go back and like actually look under the hood and see what it looked like you watch how he moves and there are some reps and it's notable so i looked at there was a couple games where he's doing a lot of work over the guards and so my guard is are the numbers inflated because he's doing so much work inside.

43:09Robert Mays: And he actually only had 35 pass rush snaps as an interior defender last year per next gen. He had nine pressures on those 35 snaps. It's a 26 % pressure rate on those plays. That's in a different zip code than any other non-linebacker in the league, anybody. The only other player that was, excuse me, the other non-linebacker that was like in this, almost close to 20 % that had more than 25 of those snaps on the interior. Who do you think it was, Derek? Derek.

43:37Dave Helman: that had that many snaps on the interior and it's not a linebacker it's an edge player it's an edge player moved over to that spot I mean like I would have guessed like a Jared verse or something like that I don't know it was Micah oh well that makes sense yeah okay they did a lot of that yeah when I

43:56Robert Mays: watch him you see it like there are certain plays where he's put into those positions and the way that he moves, the only other guy it kind of reminds me of is what Micah can do when put in those positions. And so I also think pairing a power guy like Will Anderson with a more bendy guy like Abdul Carter and having those two guys together, that was always going to be part of my strategy here. And I always thought I might grab him in this spot. I just think I really like that as the foundation of my pass rush with those two guys. And I think, again, I think there are better players maybe still available here, but the skill set is one I think I'm going to have trouble finding if I wait.

44:37He was third in my stack of edge players, and there are still several really good ones, and you could argue maybe you like a couple of the other ones better just because it's only one year for Abdul Carter, but I have no problem betting that he's going to continue to ascend.

44:53Robert Mays: Alright, so we're at 11 here. You're up, Derek.

44:57Dave Helman: This is a weird spot for me because I feel like

45:00Robert Mays: I cannot believe that there is somebody so clear here that I cannot believe you are not taking this person.

45:07Dave Helman: I think I know who you're talking about. I'm trying to figure out who you're talking about. I don't think I'm going to take them. Maybe I will. It's a 6-5. I'm going to take them. No, it's not. I'm going to take Brock Bowers.

45:16Robert Mays: That's insane that you weren't going to. I can't believe you wouldn't do that.

45:21Dave Helman: I have a couple other players in this tier, but one of them I've already taken a corner, so I don't really need to take another one yet. But Brock Bowers is just like, I think it's going to be easy, like based on the injury stuff last year and how disgusting the Raiders were, all that stuff to forget how special this dude is as a player. Because I think he gets labeled as like, he's kind of a move tight end. He's kind of a yak guy. You could put him on the line of scrimmage and he's fine. They did enough of that stuff. But he is one of the rare tight ends in the league where like you can throw screens at him and he is one of the best guys in the league with the ball in his hands.

45:54Dave Helman: He has an unbelievable catch radius. he's really good over the middle of the field and he truly does give you like special yak stuff at tight end that outside of like george kittle and maybe tucker craft did his best and like one or two other guys you just don't get a whole lot of that in terms of yak like i think brock bowers is a very very special player and there are some other good tight ends here um that like that was really kind of the only reason i thought about maybe waiting is because i think there are some other good ones but brock bowers to me is kind of in his own tier in terms of what we've already seen.

46:24Robert Mays: I just couldn't imagine that you were not going to take Brock Bowers here because I had him in this range, let alone where I thought you might have had him stacked up.

46:32Dave Helman: I had one other skill player and then one other corner that were in this range for me that I was at least thinking about. It's so true. Brock Bowers dealt with injury. The Raiders were a disaster and we talk about it all the time. There's so many good pass catchers in this league where if you have a down year, you just kind of fall by the wayside and nobody's talking about you. Nobody thinks you're good anymore. Brock Bowers in his down sophomore slump year caught 64 balls and seven touchdowns. And he was hurt the whole season. And he was dealing with an injury the entire time. I know making the Pro Bowl doesn't mean what it used to, but he's a Pro Bowl player in his sophomore slump season.

47:09Robert Mays: I'm so interested. And, Darrell, I'm sure we'll talk so much more about this as we get close to the season. I have my assumption based on what the Raiders did at receiver this offseason and what we saw Clint Kubiak do last year is that we are going to see an offense in Vegas that is built through Brock Bowers as like the primary target. What's that going to look like? Like, what does this offense look like channeled through that person? Like, I assume that's what it'll be. I just don't know how that manifests.

47:38Dave Helman: So I remember when Brock Bowers came out of the draft, our old buddy Nate Tice actually compared him to kind of like what Pukunokua was at the time. And obviously the body types are slightly different but if the offense looks similar ish to like 23 rams and you're using uh bowers similar to nakua having him be more of like an inline player almost like a flex receiver kind of a tight end near the line of scrimmage that to me would not be surprising so you think it's just

48:04Robert Mays: like death by a million like rap routes and digs that probably is the move in terms of like his

48:10Dave Helman: usage i think so and then you use all the other players do that i mean like what you've seen his ability to do that like he that's i don't think that's a stretch we say that tight end x moves like a wide receiver way too much he actually is it like there are maybe two or three guys that have ever actually been that in the modern era brock bowers is actually it he can do that

48:31Robert Mays: all right so that's pick 11 you're up at 12. so y 'all derek took puka 2 and you took jsn 4 right I feel pretty good. And there's some other places I could go with this, but I feel good about getting what I think is the third best receiver available at 12 as my first receiver off the board, and that would be Drake London. So my original plan was that I thought I would get Kyle Hamilton. I thought I would get Drake London at seven. I would have taken him as high as seven. I had that plan too. The fun thing about this exercise, I was looking through it, And I was like, okay, well, if I don't get one of the top two, I can just kind of hang out for a while because like y 'all aren't going to double up on receiver, or at least I didn't think you were.

49:16And it worked out for me. So Drake London, maybe he's a step down from the other two. I think that's fair to say, but phenomenal player, big physical presence on my offense between Darnell Wright and Drake London. I'm just, you got, you have to bully. I'm just building mammoths on my office. You're building my football team.

49:33Robert Mays: so drake london last year was seventh in the nfl in yards in uh yards per route run seventh in the league last year he was in 2024 he finished 12th but he finished seventh in first downs per route run in 2024 we're talking about a guy who's been like borderline top eight in like efficiency numbers over the last two seasons i truly believe we still have not tapped into how good of a player he can be because of the quarterback he's played with. And it's not about quality. Like, I am so interested, Derek, in watching Drake London play in and off. I kind of hope to a place because I kind of hope we see a version of the Falcons offense where they're just trying to pry open the middle of the field over and over again.

50:17Robert Mays: And that's where we see him doing more work because that just hasn't really happened. And I think he's an underrated yak guy when given the opportunity. he's such a physical presence like even if he's been really productive and really good like he's got paid 35 million dollars a year last week i didn't blink i was like yep that's that sounds right he's that type of player and i still don't think we've seen the best version of drake wanted

50:40Dave Helman: as an nfl player yeah you're preaching to the choir with me i mean he's i just think that he is absolutely fantastic bad falcons kirk is the best quarterback he's had right and he's and he's had the career that he's had. So yeah, I feel very good about this.

50:55Robert Mays: All right. So that means I'm up again? Yes. All right. I had a thought of how this would go, and now it's gone differently than I figured it, than I thought it might.

51:07Dave Helman: See, that's why I tried not to do that. I tried to be like, you know what? I have no idea who's going to take who where.

51:13Robert Mays: Well, I just, there's a position that I think there are a bunch of guys available, but I think this guy is special enough. And I don't want to draft so much for positional availability that I'm bypassing the truly elite players. And even if I think there are a couple other guys at this position that I could get maybe a round or two later, I just think he's so f***ing good that I'd be kicking myself if I didn't take him here. I'm taking Bajan.

51:41Dave Helman: Let's go. That's an actual snipe. I wanted him here. I wanted him at night. I was wondering how we were going to approach the running back situation.

51:48Robert Mays: Like, I think that you can make an argument that maybe him and Gibbs are like, they're squished up, like close enough to each other where like, maybe I could have waited and got him in the next round. But I truly do think that he's just like a special talent on like a multifaceted level. Like what you can do with him as a receiver, what he's getting for you compared to what's blocked in the running game. Like he is just such a weapon. And so building my offense through JSN and Bajon Robinson, I feel okay about that being like the skill position foundation about what the skill position foundation that I'm working with.

52:24Dave Helman: Gibbs is obviously fantastic. And he's I mean, if I if I had a vertical board here, he would be like three spots behind. So it's really close. But there is that extra element of John Robinson that it just feels like slightly more buttoned up. Like you just feel like there are no negative plays. He saves you from negative plays like he that part of his game. I appreciate so much. And he really is the only reason I even, I thought about not taking Brock Bowers because I wanted Bajon Robinson so bad. He, to me, as far as the running backs go, was in a tier of his own for this exercise.

52:55Robert Mays: I'm so glad that I was able to manipulate Derek into taking Brock Bowers. That's incredible.

52:59Dave Helman: You actually mind controlled me into, which it's Brock Bowers, I'm not complaining, but you mind controlled me out of Bajon Robinson.

53:05Robert Mays: They were two spots apart on the board that I had. And so I wouldn't have blamed you whatsoever, but yeah, I didn't expect it to go this way. I thought he was going to go like, this is what Beller, this is the, that was pick 13. I just expected him to be gone. Like I had him at like eight or nine on the board that I originally thought he'd be gone. I was putting my board together and I was like, this is a fantasy draft of three football geeks. I like, I was wondering if running backs were going to fall because of positional value, but the scarcity thing and what a running back of Bajon's caliber can do for an offense.

53:40Like, I think it's refreshing that the position is being valued here, being taken. So, I mean, he's being taken in the, we're doing what, 24 picks? 24 picks. He's being taken in the first half of the, not quite the first half, just the start of the second half, which is still higher than I guessed it might happen.

53:55Robert Mays: Yeah, I just, at this point, like, I think they throw out all the other, like, circumstantial considerations. he's just too good to not draft in this spot so i feel okay about this all right so 14 derrick you're up puts me in a little bit of a tricky position

54:11Dave Helman: i i apparently am am i so i'm a little bit caught between do i want to take a player in a position that i do not have yet or like triple down on something i think i'm just going to take jameer gibbs because i already have enough players in the secondary i think jameer Gibbs is maybe this is a little bit me like feeling bad for having missed out on Bajon Robinson and I really do want one of the elite running backs um but I don't want to make this about Bajon Robinson this is like Jameer Gibbs is a very special player in his own right he gets he generates explosives and scores touchdowns at a rate that is like pretty special as far as young players go like he is in the end zone more than anybody else and part of that is the way that like Detroit runs their offense but he also he can just score from 30 yards out at will like you give him a little bit of a lane because Panay Sewell just knocks one linebacker out of the way and he's just gone and he I would say that Jameer Gibbs erases angles in a way that is outside of like maybe peak Tyreek Hill the best that we've seen of any skill player in the last like five years like that's a good way to describe it I like that like he just he makes even really good tacklers and really good safeties and linebackers wrong because he just has it's not even just the straight line speed it's that like he can accelerate and decelerate like while he's changing direction or while he's running towards the sideline and he's kind of like just like turning his body in a weird way he just has a very unique way of getting up and down in his gears and then re-getting to top gear in a way that again it just like it feels like you're watching him in a different speed he's an incredible player he really is I mean like you look at it runs of 20

55:50Robert Mays: plus yards last year i think he was like fourth or fifth in the league uh last season he was fourth in the league last season so there were two other guys that had he was tied for third there were two other guys that had more than 20 more rushes of 20 plus yards i'm stumbling over my words here because one of them is a player that is available in this draft and i don't want to be i don't want necessarily be spitting it out but uh i'm with you and i think that the explosiveness element of it to me that's the most important thing to mention like in a world where it's harder to find explosive plays because of the way defenses are playing having a back that's like a walking explosive play and is a real factor in the passing game all of that stuff like I I absolutely think that that's why somebody like Jameer Gibbs is worth considering in this sort of range and and the

56:34Dave Helman: last thing if we're talking if we're doing a little bit of like the team building and culture and all that stuff Jameer Gibbs is a player who's gotten better every single year like he's a better pass protector than he used to be he's able to take more carries than I think people were worried about he could take early on in his career. He is just a guy who has continued to level up in the way that he plays and the way that he moves, the way that he sees blocks. The fact that he's got that, and also he is a threat to take it to the house literally any time he touches the football. I'm happy building my offense between the three guys that I've got now.

57:04All right, Dave, you're up. I'm 15. I really didn't expect to be here. But now you get to a point where you have a blinking red light and a guy that I just wasn't sure was going to be there a guy that I considered taking much, much higher, who I don't need. But at this point, it just makes too much sense for me. And just everyone is going to cower in fear of my defensive line after I add Jalen Carter to Byron Murphy and Jared Verse. And yeah, like I'm doubling up on D-tackle. I don't give a shit. It's awesome. Well, you could easily play them together. Yeah. I mean, Byron Murphy was a nose this year.

57:43Robert Mays: Play Jalen Carter at the three and prosper. And we're going to have two D tackles that can average 60 pressures a season. Jalen Carter has 18 sacks in three seasons. Obviously last year he was banged up. I'm comfortable taking this risk at 15. I know he's, he's angling to set the market at D tackle right now, but contracts are not our concern for this exercise. So I feel really, really great about my defensive line with, with those three guys. And yeah, I went into this thinking Jalen Carter might fall for various reasons, but at this point, it's a bargain. I just, it's hard for me. And I think that I am particularly swayed by this because I think the lowest point of his season last year was the game they played against the Bears on Black Friday, where he just clearly couldn't play because of what was going on with his shoulders.

58:39Robert Mays: Yeah. And it's just kind of burned into my brain, like how bad it got last year. And the fact that this isn't like he hurt his shoulder and had to have like a procedure on it. This is that both of his shoulders are at a point where he had to have like platelet procedure done on both of his shoulders. So this is like an ongoing issue. That's the only reason that I wouldn't have taken him way higher is that this isn't like some one-off injury he's recovering from. This is something that it feels like he's going to have to be managing for a while, like maybe in perpetuity. And that would scare me a little bit.

59:17It should scare you. And that's why he got picked 15th in this exercise. But I think 15th out of 24 picks for a guy of his talent level, and he just turned 25 in April. I mean, even if that were to come to pass, I'm cool with it. I mean, like I addressed the position with another player. I addressed, I've spent so much resources on my defensive line. I'm very comfortable with the risk in this spot.

59:41Dave Helman: Yeah, I mean, at this point, it's worth it. If he didn't have the injury stuff, I mean, I would have taken him over Brock Bowers, and I would have even thought about it with Derek Stingley. Like the best of Jalen Carter is a very, very difference-making type of player. I probably wouldn't have taken Byron Murphy where I did if I thought I could get Jalen Carter later. If I could get healthy Jalen Carter. But I'm happy to have both.

1:00:03Robert Mays: It's fine. That's funny. All right. I'm back and forth on a couple different guys here. There's one position that I thought I would try to chase in this range. And I'm tempted to do it because I think there are a couple guys that I would really love to have. But I'm at a point where I think I might let my defensive line do some of the lifting for what my defense feels like. I might be of the opinion that I could put whoever the hell I want at corner if I have Abdul Carter and Will Anderson. I know that's a dangerous way of thinking about it, but we're not picking 22 guys here. We can only pick so many.

1:00:43And I think that this is tough.

1:00:49Robert Mays: Similar to the Jalen Carter thing, there is a player here that I think truly has seismic upside, but obviously there's lingering concerns about what the health is going to be. but I think what we saw him be at his best it's like it'd be hard for me to turn that down

1:01:06Dave Helman: I think I know who that is if that's who you're taking

1:01:12I think, oh man, it's so awesome watching Robert in actual agony making these decisions.

1:01:21Robert Mays: I think I have an idea about how I want this to go.

1:01:27Robert Mays: All right, I'm going to stick with my original approach here. And I'm going to take...

1:01:39Dave Helman: i'm gonna take quinnon mitchell great pick uh he's he's the only guy i have like super high on my board that i haven't taken really yeah i had him really high on my board thought there'd

1:01:51Robert Mays: be another corner you would have in the same general range that's surprising i'm alarmed at derrick's hate for the unnamed cornerback who's still available i think we all know who the other

1:02:01Dave Helman: one is I have him also pretty high I I think Quinone Mitchell I had like in that top 11 12 players that I have here he's he's an incredible outside corner I I thought he had a phenomenal

1:02:11Robert Mays: season last year and like what he looks like in the prototypical modern defense like it just he is so tailor-made for what so many of these teams are trying to do as an outside corner like I he took a huge step last year and into being like a truly elite player and so I I'm with you that I I would have had Stingley and like the top about like separated between these couple of guys. But I think that Mitchell and the guy that Derek is just systematically disrespecting. They're like one step down from that. But I feel pretty good about Mitchell. I, I was tempted there. There's a, there's a dragon.

1:02:46Robert Mays: I almost chased here, but I I'm going to go with my original plan and make sure that I have more than one defensive player before we leave this exercise or more than more than one, a defensive player at more than one level, I guess. I was going to say, you've got to have more than one.

1:03:00Dave Helman: so kind of speaking of going to stuff that uh we don't have at any level yet i don't have any offensive linemen and i think this is a weird spot for offensive linemen i fully understand that i think some of the tackles that are on the board are a little bit too young and still have a little bit unknown that i don't want to take them i think i'm going to take tyler smith of the cowboy

1:03:23Robert Mays: god damn it that's a good that's a good i was really really hoping if i went with the corner there i could get tyler smith with my next pick that sucks this is retribution for the bjell

1:03:35Dave Helman: that's really frustrating best guard available he he's he's really the only interior player i had like there are again a couple other tackles that i think are interesting but he to me was so far and above like the interior player at this age range that is already proven to be a guy that is really special like he's made a pro bowl basically every year that he's been in the league I think he has all pro potential if this team and offense like got back to the point where they were a team that we were talking about every single week just the way that he moves people in the run game I think he's gotten even better as a pass protector than he already came into the league as like he to me is about as good as you can be at this age for a guard and also like it's a small like tiebreaker I guess sort of thing he could play tackle in a pinch if you need him to like He did it in college, and he's done it before.

1:04:22Dave Helman: Exactly. The fact that he has that flexibility, this is totally the type of offensive lineman I would like to build the thing around.

1:04:28Robert Mays: You're getting zero pushback here. I'm immensely frustrated. I was really, really hoping that I could get him with my next pick. I have five interior offensive linemen on the board that I made, but to Derek's point, that's just to give myself options. Tyler Smith is several steps above the rest of the names available in that area. I had one guy in my top 25 or like borderline top 30 that I would consider, but I think he's a significant step down from Tyler Smith. And so again, I'm very jealous of that pick and wish I would have made it and now have some regrets. Cause I think I could have gotten a cornerback later.

1:05:02Robert Mays: All right. You're up Dave. This is sick. Cause I pick is this bar. Okay. So 15. Six from this is 18. Yeah. I was flying a little close to the sun. I wasn't sure if this was going to pay off for me, but it worked out exactly the way I wanted it to. I have Stingley Mitchell and Christian Gonzalez stacked, and I just kind of figured, all right, I'll let the other two take the guys they like and take the one that's left, and I'm okay with that. I didn't think it would be Christian Gonzalez, to be honest with you. I was weighing between him and Mitchell. Why do you hate Christian Gonzalez? Why do you hate Christian Gonzalez?

1:05:42Robert Mays: We're not doing this.

1:05:43Dave Helman: I am the I was I love Christian Gonzalez and he was obviously phenomenal in the Super Bowl. This to me is actually more the more I watch the Eagles defense, especially over this offseason. I've just really come to appreciate Mitchell's game. Like I think Gonzalez for his size is obviously a phenomenal mover. I think he is a little bit better as like a pure out like outside the numbers corner. I think there is a little bit more like giddy up clicking close to a guy like Mitchell and he's a little bit more tenacious. and I think I just ended up giving him the push just for that. Mitchell's aggressiveness and tenacity is worth shouting out.

1:06:23I would have been happy with any of the three of these guys, but I honestly, because you started the cornerback run with Stingley and completely justifiable, but I would have guessed you would take Gonzo one. And not only did you not, but you just let him fall all the way to me at 18 because you don't like him.

1:06:42Robert Mays: All right, we're going to take one more quick break in part so I can reevaluate my strategy. So I'm playing in a softball league this summer, and it's great. I'm having a ton of fun. Baseball was a sport that I played my entire life. I was pretty good at it. If we're going to let myself pat me on the back for a sec, always came naturally. And my brain still works the way it did when I was younger, when I was a little bit better at the sport than I maybe am right now. I'm playing shortstop. Ball gets it to my left, a ball gets it to my right. My brain still thinks, okay, that's a ball I can get to, and I can't quite get there anymore.

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1:09:41Robert Mays: I thought I was going to be able to get Tyler Smith here, and so I had a certain way I was going to build this thing. And now I think I'm just throwing caution to the wind, and I am going to chase the dragon in terms of how I'm putting this together. I wonder who this is going to be. I'm taking Malik Neighbors. Yeah, I knew that.

1:09:55Dave Helman: I knew that's who it was. When you said, oh, the health and the superstar ceiling and all this stuff, it had to be Neighbors.

1:10:00Robert Mays: I'm at a point now where it's like, if I can't get the elite offensive line, I'm just building the sickest collection of pass catchers I possibly can. And so if Malik neighbors, let's say we didn't specify, but let's say this is over a three year period, right? Even if Malik neighbors is not fully right by the end of this year, if you get rookie year Malik neighbors with like even average quarterback play over the next three years, he's what? a top six receiver top eight probably yeah probably six or eight like he because he it's

1:10:37Dave Helman: the explosive play ability which is what we keep talking about when we talk about all these guys like there are like obviously drake london's a great player but if malik neighbors at his best can give you a little bit more explosive play ability i could totally see the world where like he is a more favorable player for a lot of people i need him to be okay so badly because I was on vacation. I was trying to stay off the internet, but I am terminally online. I can't help myself. And like every time I opened social media to check in, it was something about Malik neighbors, John Harbaugh saying something catastrophic.

1:11:12It was like, oh, Malik neighbors, like he's, he's doing great, but he had to have a normal knee injury. He had to do this instead. And it might take longer than we thought. I just, I need him to be okay. I, he's so much fun to watch.

1:11:23Robert Mays: I listen, but this late in the draft is similar to Jalen Carter. it's a risk absolutely worth taking exactly what it is and again i think the difference if i'm trying to cope here the difference between this and jaylen carter is like this is like a one-off thing right like he had the toe coming into last year and so you could argue that he's dealt with some stuff but it's not like it's not a physical ailments that seems like it's going to be sticking with him moving forward like i so i do think that if he can come back healthy the upside here in this range to me feels worth it like I have him JSN and Bijan like I I think that that's a decent place for me to start I again I was I planned on going more offensive line heavy and taking Tyler Smith here and building it that way but if I can't do that then I'm just gonna Kyle Shanahan my way out of this thing Derek you're up at what is this 19 something like that so 20 I realized

1:12:15Dave Helman: that we have two rounds left and there are some already established like fantastic players on the board here and totally understand if if players want to go there I'm already at the point where I want to get players that I had highlighted and I needed them in this draft I know I know where you're going I'm taking Carson Swessinger I knew it I knew it I thought he was good during the season I've been going back and doing like a study of linebacker play across the league like I've been watching you know all the elite guys the Fred Warners the Roquan Smiths and stuff like that all the way down to like middling guys and then I have more recently been watching all the rookies Carson Swessinger is like a top five linebacker today.

1:12:53Dave Helman: Like the way that he moves, the way that he triggers, the angles that he takes to every kind of run. Like, I think that is what is already kind of fascinating to him about, fascinating about him to me is that I think sometimes you see guys come into the league and they kind of play one way and don't understand how to untangle different kinds of blocks or take different angles versus different kinds of runs. he understands which tool to use in every single kind of scenario whether whether he needs to dip under a block does he need to sidestep it does he need to go through a guy and take back space he just his understanding is already as good as it gets and I think as a mover he's special to me like he has a it's almost like I was talking about with Jameer Gibbs actually like the way that he can take like a weird side angle to the ball and still accelerate downhill and then have that like like snappiness to just stop on a dime and then shoot back to make a tackle.

1:13:47Dave Helman: This sounds crazy. He, in terms of movement skills, is like the closest I've seen to Fred Warner since obviously Fred Warner. And I don't know if he'll ever get to that peak, but I think he is such a special football player. I'm really pissed at myself because I came in saying scarcity was my number one priority. Cardinal Swessinger is the only...

1:14:07Robert Mays: Oh, he's the only linebacker. He's the only pure off-ball linebacker that you could even sniff in this exercise. I mean, I guess if you believed in Arvel Reese or Sonny Stiles enough to take a gamble on them as a rookie, you could do that. But in terms of guys we've actually seen play in the NFL, it's him and nobody. And so Derek had to come out of this with a linebacker. He was the obvious. I had to come out of it with that linebacker. That's okay. I'll survive. All right. So Dave, you're up. Now I'm faced with the choice of the player that I really think is the best one available.

1:14:44or the equally, the really, really good player that will piss you off. Like, which one do I want to do here? But ultimately, I'm going to be responsible. I'm not here to be a troll. And actually, Derek taking Schlesinger makes it a little bit easier for me because I still want to add to my secondary, and I see a guy here who can wear a lot of hats, can do a little bit of everything, and that's Devin Witherspoon.

1:15:12Robert Mays: Love it. He was very much one of the players in this range for me. Playing, you know, I could play him outside. I could play him in the nickel. And God, I love my defense. Come, you know, winding toward the end of this thing, I'm very happy about my defense. And you have Christian Gonzalez on the outside. I do. You have any other secondary players or only those two? Just those. Yeah, just those two. But again, I see Spoon as a guy that can play several different positions. And then you have Jalen Carter. Jalen Carter, Byron Murphy, and Jerry Verse. It's pretty good. I also have a responsible choice to make here or the choice that I want to make.

1:15:48Robert Mays: This is your last pick. It is. This is my last pick. And I'm, I know I'm going to go with the choice. I want to make the right choice here. If I was to be responsible would be to take Armand Membu. That would be the right choice. Have some fun. I would, I would take another tackle draft. I would, I'd be like, all right, I got my tackle set. I already have enough pass catchers. I feel good about my pass rush. I got a corner already. or I think Cooper DeGene is a worthwhile pick here for the reasons that we stated earlier. I think Cooper DeGene or Armament Boots would be more responsible choices based on the current construction of my team.

1:16:22Robert Mays: I'm taking Colson Loveland. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not leaving this exercise without taking Colson Loveland. So now and again I understand that this is not responsible but my skill position players now are Malik Neighbors JSN Bajon Robinson and Colson Loveland. And so that's, that's how we're going to try to live. You say that to me and I'm like, are you in an eight man league? Like, you know, like fantasy football, like how the hell did you get all these guys? I took no linemen because, because Derek took Tyler Smith when I wanted him. I thought, again, I thought I would take Joe or I did. I would be able to get Tyler Smith right before or right after Derek took him.

1:17:04Robert Mays: And then I would not have elite neighbors and I would have. and originally my thought was I would have Drake London and Loveland based on how I thought the draft would go because I thought you guys might take JSN and Puka so I thought I originally was one receiver in the tight end and I didn't think I would take Bajon so they went in a lot of directions I didn't expect but much I still am okay with this much like your favorite team you're gonna score 38 points and see what happens everywhere else it's so funny because I really did coming into this expect that I would be more trench heavy like I was planning on it.

1:17:37Robert Mays: I wanted to leave this with Tyra Smith. I wanted to leave this with Byron Murphy. And they just went earlier than I expected. And so this is where we're at. All right, Derek, where are you going with this? Because I'm going to have an annoying choice to make.

1:17:53Dave Helman: So this is my last pick, right? Yes. I'm just going to do all my honorable mentions here, basically.

1:17:58Robert Mays: I was going to list off like 30 guys when we were done.

1:18:00Dave Helman: But yeah, like a Cooper DeGene, And I absolutely if I didn't already have a nickel in Kyle Hamilton, and I know that I could move him at safety and switch all this. But like for that reason, I'm not going to take Cooper Degene, even though like if I didn't have Hamilton, I would have taken him like three picks earlier. I think I think as far as like edge guys go, like Trayvon Walker here, I think actually has like a pretty good argument. Sauce is obviously still on the board.

1:18:23Robert Mays: Sauce is not eligible. Was he not?

1:18:25Dave Helman: OK, he ages out just barely.

1:18:27Robert Mays: OK, he turns 26 in August.

1:18:30Dave Helman: OK, don't even have to consider it then. the responsible choice here for me, which I think I'm going to make because I don't have enough trench players, I will take Armand Membu. Because I think it's kind of a lot of the pre-baked versions of what we're talking about with Darnell Wright, where he's not all the way there yet. But in terms of ability to move people, in terms of having length on the outside to just kind of shut people down, shut edge rushers down, really have the anchor to hold up against people, that's kind of what you're shooting for when you go with Armand Membu. And so he still probably has a year or two of loading and good offensive environment for him to get there.

1:19:08Dave Helman: But if there's anybody in this tier that you can imagine him getting there, it's probably Membu. I, because I love him, I think Kelvin Banks is closer to Membu than maybe other people. And I did consider him, especially because left tackle specific. But I do think Membu, like what you get in terms of some of the movement skills and power is like pretty sick.

1:19:25Robert Mays: Very similar thought process as to why I thought if I didn't get Darnell Wright in the middle of this draft, I could try to get Membu later for that exact reason. Again, we're talking about a guy in a Ben Johnson run game taking that leap last year. I doubt the environment is going to be as conducive to Membu taking that step. That's not his fault. Just based purely on talent, I think he has the ability to take that step that Darnell Wright did at some point over the next couple years, and so I'm 100 % with you. Again, I thought I would take a Wright tackle at some point or like another offensive lineman, but I got to my last pick and I had to have Colson Lovell.

1:20:03I think I'm going to do something vaguely irresponsible, and that's okay because it's the last pick of the exercise. I mean, there's so many good players still available, whether, I mean, you could do Cooper to Gene. I know he's injured, which influences my opinion, but I love Brian Branch, Tedaroa McMillan, and George Pickens are hanging out here. Trayvon Walker absolutely Derek also Tuli to to below two is here but I'm gonna have fun with it because I need more firepower on my offense and y 'all took the two obvious running backs so I'm just gonna have a little fun and draft Jeremiah Love oh interesting there we go I think he's got

1:20:47Robert Mays: the potential to be that sort of running back so obviously that was the rookie I thought might go was was was Jeremiah Love go but the other the other running back that I'm surprised that you might not be considering here and that is Devon Achan. That was the other running back I thought might go here.

1:21:03Dave Helman: The only reason Achan would scare me is like workload for a player his size. And I know that he's like generally not actually been hurt for a guy his size, but I do wonder that when you compare him to guys like Love or Bajon Robinson, and even like, this is going to sound like it's Achan hate. The reason I would put Bajon Robinson over Jameer Gibbs is I am more certain that I could give him 50 more carries than I could even a guy like Jameer Gibbs.

1:21:25Robert Mays: Jameer Gibbs has never gotten more than 250 carries in a season.

1:21:28Dave Helman: Exactly. Exactly.

1:21:29Robert Mays: The workload between him and HN actually looks pretty similar. So Gibbs got 252 years ago, 243 last year. HN was at 238 last year. So their workload has been pretty similar. Bijan obviously has gotten more than that. This is disgusting, but it's so apropos for running backs in particular. Devon HN turns 25 during the season. And so it's like, oh, he's getting kind of old for a running back. Like I'll just take 21 year old Jeremiah Love instead. And I do, I think the world of them. I thought Jeremiah Love might go. The only guy I'm kind of surprised that didn't go, but I can understand why is Pickens.

1:22:04Robert Mays: I mean, based on the seasons that he, the season that he had last year. But I think the reason that George Pickens did not get a contract extension from the Cowboys might be the reason we might not want to commit to George Pickens on a multi-year level. You guys might disagree. And you both, you took receivers really, really high. So you probably do. But when I was doing this and I know, like we're not drafting 22 players and we're not going against an entire league. It's just the three of us. I looked at it and I was like, I, I, I feel good about the drop-off here. Like I, and so obviously we're ending the exercise here, but like, if we were going to keep going, I would say, okay, I could get Tedaroa McMillan.

1:22:40I could get George Pickens. I could even, you know, based on his rookie year, I feel fine taking a flyer on Emeka Ibuka. and so I just think the depth of receiver made me feel less urgent about drafting one.

1:22:53Robert Mays: I don't think it's as deep as you're making it out to be. I think that's what I would say. It is more deep than a lot of these other positions even if you're right and I completely recognize that there are tiers here. Like these aren't all similar caliber players but again I feel fine or I feel better about taking the third or fourth tier of receiver over trying to find a defensive tackle if the good ones go. Yeah the defensive tackle thing I think is totally fair because there just aren't that many guys. Or offensive tackle for that matter. But I think that there's still even like, at offensive tackle, if we had kept going, here are the guys that I had kind of right at the top of the next tier, Paris Johnson, Charles Cross.

1:23:29Robert Mays: Like there are offensive tackles that you, to me, those guys would be. Charles Cross is only, isn't 26 yet? Holy shit, dude. He's 20, he turns 26 on November 25th. Okay, so he makes the cut. I feel like Charles Cross has been in the league for eight years at this point. So there were tackles that I think you'd go with. Again, I took Joel 10th overall and so even higher than that. And so that's why I didn't take those guys. But I think those guys are kind of at the top of what I'm talking about. The other interior offensive lineman that I had, Derek, was Peter Skarotsky.

1:23:57Dave Helman: Yeah, that's a good one. That's a good one.

1:23:58Robert Mays: So Peter Skarotsky is somebody that, again, if I was doing the responsible thing, he'd be somebody I would have considered there after missing out on Tywin Smith. But I'm trying to have a good time, not a long time.

1:24:08Dave Helman: There were a lot of guys were like, if this went 12 rounds, there would have been a lot more interior offensive linemen. I would have thought about like Zach Frazier. If we went two more rounds, I would have been like totally. But I'm not going to take him in, you know, the 14th pick of something like this, even if I think he's a really good player.

1:24:23Robert Mays: So one that I think is actually really fascinating and I can understand why he didn't go, but I think is a name at least worth throwing out. Travis Hunter.

1:24:31Dave Helman: Yeah, that one is just so like.

1:24:34Robert Mays: It's a mystery box, right? I don't even know what to do. There's not enough there to justify when you only have 24 picks. Don't disagree with that. But that's a name I would throw out. The other like actual name that I 100 % could have gotten drafted, I expected to get drafted. I probably should have taken him. Cooper DeGene, like Derek mentioned. Other guys that I think at least worth mentioning. I mentioned a couple of the tackles. Jamison Williams, I think is, if we had gone like another few rounds, I think could be in consideration. Sam LaPorta, Brian Branch, talking about Lions. Brian Branch, obviously, has some health concerns.

1:25:08Robert Mays: Tucker Craft, I'd throw out there. A couple other just random guys that I think I at least wanted to mention because of the seasons they had last year. Tui Tupulotu. Yeah. Edge rushers. He's awesome. It gets pretty thin pretty quickly. DJ Turner. Corner, I think there's a pretty steep drop off after the outside guys that we mentioned. And I think, again, if we had gone another four or five rounds, I would have thought about DJ Turner. Josh Downs. If we kept going at receiver past like the TMAC tier of guys. Brian Thomas Jr. probably one tier up from that. Ladd McConkie and Brian Thomas Jr. I think both, if we had done a few more rounds, might go.

1:25:43Robert Mays: Kamari Lasseter and Zach Frazier is the other one, like Derek mentioned. Those are like the dozen or so guys I had also thrown in there just in case.

1:25:52Dave Helman: I'm going to be a meme of myself, but I did have one more player here that was on my last tier and like five spots outside of actually reasonably being picked. And I knew I was going to take a player at this position, so it didn't matter. I think Jihad Campbell is still really good. I think that his rookie season was more impressive upon me going back and rewatching it this offseason than I remembered it being during the season like I just think the way he takes on blocks I think was really impressive I thought he also did a good job of using his length in a way that you know obviously when you're built like that you better and I think he did a really good job of it he got taken off the field a little bit sometimes because Dean was just a knew the playbook a little bit better in terms of coverage stuff but I do still think the ceiling for a guy like Jahad Campbell is pretty damn high I'm excited to watch him this year like I'm excited

1:26:34Robert Mays: for him to be back as like a full-time player I get why Dean played for them down the stretch but I think there were plenty of flashes and highs from Jahad Campbell that would make you justifiably excited about him. All right. So very quickly, let's run through our teams. I have Will Anderson, Jackson Smith and Jigba, Joe Alt, Abdul Carter, Bajon Robinson, Quinn Young Mitchell, Malik Neighbors, Colson Lovelland. That is a we're never going to die sort of team. I'm fully willing to admit that I should have drafted one of the offensive linemen. Again, I really wanted Tyler Smith in the Malik Neighbors spot.

1:27:05Robert Mays: Derek forced my hand and forced me to drive off the cliff in a very irresponsible way and I'm

1:27:10Dave Helman: kind of okay with it again retribution for you having mind controlled me out of Bajon Robinson um my team I didn't actually write this down in real time so I'm kind of riffing here off like my overall list but I had Puka Nakua uh I had Kyle Hamilton I had Derek Singley in the third round I had Brock Bowers. I had Jameer Gibbs at running back. I have Carson Swessinger at linebacker. I have Tyler Smith at guard. And who was my last player? Armand Membu at tackle. I don't think that was in perfect order, but those are my players.

1:27:43Robert Mays: You took two offensive linemen. Yes. I was so thrown by Derek passing on Christian Gonzalez that I didn't notice. That is a sizist team, though. Like, absolutely it is. like the unicorn safety, the guard who can play tackle.

1:27:59Dave Helman: Carson Schlesinger is pretty, Carson Schlesinger is like 6 '3", 240. Built in a lab to play linebacker. Absolutely. Yeah, that is a very Derek team. It's a sizes team, except for my like 195 pound running back who is just lightning in a bottle. Yeah.

1:28:13Robert Mays: Traits you can't replicate, right? Yeah, exactly. And Dave, your team was who? My team is Byron Murphy, Jared Verse, Darnell Wright, Drake London, Jalen Carter, Christian Gonzalez, Devin Witherspoon, Jeremiah Love, which just... You actually have the most, like, FU size team, and the only guy that's an exception to that is the corner that plays 30 pounds bigger than he actually is. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's also... It's crazy defense heavy.

1:28:42Dave Helman: Dave has the most punch you in the face team, by far. Which is crazy,

1:28:47Robert Mays: because I really thought I was going to try to go that way. That was my plan coming into this, and I just gave up on it immediately. I feel good about this. Yeah, I made three offensive picks. That's a little surprising to me, but I just, I don't know. I think it's harder to find defenders of that caliber, in my opinion. And so that's what I wanted to prioritize. Byron Murphy is the most shocking pick in the draft, but I think the fact that Derek and I both thought we could get him later and had him in our plans is very telling. I think Byron Murphy, I'll plant my flag. Like, I think he's, I mean, he's already one of those dudes, but I think he's going to be on the radar as one of those dudes.

1:29:28Robert Mays: I mean, if you, your defense at this point needs those just like glass-eating guys on the interior, and that's exactly what he is. And so I am a little jealous of that, even if it allowed me to get JSN, and I do feel okay about that in the long run. All right, that was fun. That's all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We will be back tomorrow. Got another really fun show for you guys coming tomorrow. Really excited about that one. Be on the lookout for that for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode.

1:30:04Robert Mays: If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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