Week 10 Hangover: Giants fire Brian Daboll, Ravens and Chargers put Steelers in panic mode

0:28Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. But enjoy digging into that with Derek. And then we hit two games on the hangover today. Unfortunately, the Giants news precluded us from talking about Browns, Jets. But we dove deep on Ravens Vikings, just where the Ravens offense feels like it's at right now. I actually thought there was some encouraging stuff that we saw yesterday. And then what to make of the J.J. McCarthy experience right now against the backdrop of a Ravens defense that I do think is figuring itself out. I think that we've seen that over the past couple of weeks. Also talked about Chargers Steelers, a game that was kind of gross, but also was very simple and easy to understand in a way that I appreciate it.

1:05Like you can put that game into three distinct buckets and get a handle on it pretty quickly. And that's what we did today. So Ravens, Vikings, Steelers, Chargers, and a little New York Giants head coach talk on the week 10 hangover with me and Derek Klassen. Let's get to it right now.

1:26feeling a little hungover on week 10 we got a big monday night game when the review of that monday night game will be available on the youtube channel by the time you guys can listen to this so i encourage you guys to go check that out very excited about eagles packers recording our first one from the studio a little bit later tonight but a few games to get to before we get to enjoy a lovely week 10 monday night football game talk about ravens vikings in a little bit i'm gonna talk about the Steelers and the Chargers. We were going to do three games. Unfortunately, yet again, we have been preempted by a little bit of NFL news that is going to take some precedence at the top of this.

2:00Thankfully, thankfully, having Browns jets on the docket, it makes it very easy to cut a game. I will say I do. We need to watch the Browns and the jets at some point in order to provide proper context for what next year should look like. I honestly think we might just spend an entire midweek show doing that after like week 16, just to like top five of the draft order like these teams are their actual season is done let's just check in with where these teams are so we can talk about what next off season should look like for them that's mostly why I want to talk about Browns Jets and why I was a little bummed that we're not going to unfortunately another team has fired its head coach and we have to dig into that today Brian Dable out as the head coach of the New York Giants we're gonna change the order of things today because one of our Monday morning voicemails was actually about Brian Dable and about the Giants situation.

2:48And so we're going to play that voicemail first and then chat about what this means for the New York Giants on a pretty big day for the organization. Well, Robert, it's a Sunday. So that means there's another epic Giants fourth quarter collapse. And this one felt a little fitting because it was with against another organization that dealt with the same QB coach GM mismatch timelines. I think the Giants kind of have it a little worse because the Bears fans never saw a Mr. Bischke or Justin Fields captain, one of the best offenses in the league the following year. So knowing your proximity to the issues the Giants are dealing with, Robert, I want to get your insight on, if you're the Giants organization, what do you do?

3:35I mean, Brian Dable was supposed to be a young, hot, offensive mind. so do you go a different direction do you stay on this timeline of mismatches do you stick with them really as a Giants fan I think all Giants fans want to know what's your take especially as a Bears fan thanks Robert thanks Dave thanks Eric here's the first thing I'll say that point about not having to watch Mitch Trubisky or Justin Fields succeed elsewhere is so true after the week one game against the again for the Jets this year against the Steelers I was like oh no so actually having to watch that play out in real time I got one tiny glimpse of what it felt like and I hated it so I'm very much feeling for Giants fans on that front right now and even with week one you can be like all right sometimes this happens when it extends after week one for Daniel Jones and they're like the best offense for two months you're like oh god this is horrible intellectually you understand that but in the moment it's sometimes it's hard to square that the rationality doesn't take over when you're looking at the way that Justin Fields played in week one, even if there's a part of your brain that understands this probably isn't real, it was a little bit scary.

4:41And so the fact that the Giants fans have had to watch that for eight weeks and then it's not been quite as good the last two weeks, but this is still the best offense in the league. That is a painful experience. Let's move on to what happens next. Obviously, when that voicemail happened, the Giants had not fired Brian Dable. Now that has happened. And now the next set of questions is where do they go from here with both the coach and the GM? So after you heard the news this morning, you I'm not I'm assuming you weren't surprised because when we talked about this last week, your thought was it doesn't matter if the quarterback is playing decently.

5:14Well, we're at a place where anybody can be blowing these leads and winning four games as the Giants head coach. And so it felt like you were getting to a place where it was time in your eyes. Well, and it's just like I think Jackson Dart has done some nice things that you can build around. He's obviously a really good athlete. I think some of his deep ball stuff has been nice. He's like willing to make plays, which is fun. He's really accurate, which has actually been probably the most startling thing to me is that he's really, really accurate. But like when I watch the offense, I don't get the sense that anything the offense is doing for him is like some crazy thing that he's being lifted by.

5:46Like this does not to me feel like a Brian Dable thing. This just very much feels to me like, OK, a talented player is if a little bit inconsistent, showing you something every now and then. If anything, I thought this was just like the offense kind of just looks like what you expect when you get like an RPO athletic quarterback like he's not doing anything that was like super exciting to me from an offensive design standpoint the big question for me now is whether because I agree in the sense that like I understand why they fired him I thought that there was a good argument to fire him after last season when you knew you needed a new quarterback and you didn't want to get onto these mismanaged timelines that was the thing like timelines do you want to have him picking the quarterback when you've had two seasons of being the worst offense in the NFL basically.

6:26Sometimes I think that stuff can be overstated in that if the quarterback ends up being good or the quarterback is worthwhile, then honestly, who really gives a shit? Like, if Jackson Dart is good, whoever comes in to coach Jackson Dart, he'll probably be happy that Jackson Dart is the quarterback. The Bears did this with Ben Johnson. I mean, the fact that Ben Johnson didn't pick Caleb Williams, if it starts to go south, it's a little bit easier to distance yourself from that guy, and so maybe that's a consideration, and maybe you're a little bit worried about the development plan for that quarterback, but But in the Bears case, like it was a disaster anyway.

6:57Like you wanted somebody in there to actually get this thing back on the right track. And so I think that's it. You never like having that sort of dysfunction and that sort of year to year change. But if you get the right coach in there, I don't think that's really going to matter. For me, it's a question of should the front office stay in place? Because it really does seem like the messaging coming out of that building is that when they said it today, they put out a statement that Maris and the Tishes did about how Joe Shane has built a young, promising, ascending roster. We're happy with the direction of that.

7:27He's going to be the one leading this search. I'm just not sure how much I buy into that. If you look at what they've done over the last few off seasons, I don't think it's some flaming disaster. There are some nice pieces here, but I think of the Joe Shane process in a similar way. Again, go back to the similarities and the shared DNA of these organizations to such an extent. it reminds me a little bit of like what Ryan Poles has done. And I think that there are a lot of similarities. If you look at even the Brian Burns trade, the sweat trade is like the exact same thing. And so I think there are a lot of just kind of throwing money and resources at problems and just being like, oh yeah, of course we like need this guy.

8:07You know, like why wouldn't we trade a second round pick for a pass rusher when we don't have one? And I think in both cases, I just think there's kind of a lack of vision and cohesion. It's like you're kind of playing whack-a-mole with your issues, but not really understanding how to build a team from the ground up that complements one another and makes sense. And so while I look at the Giants roster and the pieces that they have, and I'm like, yeah, I mean, this isn't one of the worst teams in the league from a talent perspective. I can understand talking yourself into keeping the GM. I also don't think that there's a very strong argument for he needs to stay based on the work that he has done either.

8:41That's kind of where I'm at. I don't think he's a horrific GM necessarily. Like the hit rate is not good, but it's good enough. And you have enough star players, right? Like Abdul Carter looks nice. Obviously Malik neighbors when he's healthy, like some of the stars are fine. I want to be clear about that. I think the foundation of it, if you were to bring in somebody who might have a little better vision is a job I want to take. But at the same time, a lot of the guys that they've found are guys they picked in the top five. You can find difference making players like the second overall pick. Yes, exactly.

9:10It gets a little bit easier to pick those guys. And so I think he's at least hit on those picks, which is nice. And like, again, I don't think it's an abject failure of a roster, but it feels a little bit too stars and scrubs E. And then to your point, like, I don't understand what the cohesive vision for it was supposed to be. And so for me, if I'm cleaning house with the head coach and offensive play caller already, I would probably lean towards like, let's just kind of clean everything out entirely. Whoever is going to take over the job, GM head coach is like, okay, you have a quarterback, maybe you can build around.

9:38You'll probably get like two years to figure out if you want this guy or not. And then that's like a decent runway for whoever is coming in. And so I don't know. I personally would move on because, again, we've talked a million times about when you mismatch head coach and GM, it's just like a weird place to be. I would rather kind of just take it all. It doesn't seem like that's what they're going to do. And so that's an area where it will be misaligned. And then you'll see how that goes. Again, if you find the right coach, none of this really matters. But I just think that you're maybe making it a little bit harder on yourself than you need to as somebody who has watched this process many, many times.

10:07And I will say not that Joe Shane has earned it, but we have at least seen cases of a GM like outliving one head coach. and then two years later they start to find whatever their vision is. Like the Bucs had kind of done this after the Charles James Winston. They're the best example, but in a lot of ways, they're the exception that proves the rule to me. I guess Les Snead would be the other example, right? But how many Sean McVeighs are out there? There just aren't that many Sean McVeighs. And so I think if you find that type of coach, maybe it cures a lot of your ills, but I think it's really, really difficult to find that kind of franchise-changing person.

10:37The Dable experience as a head coach, I think it's a strange one when we are going to look back on it, you know, five, ten years from now. He won coach of the year in 2022. And I don't think that was like a fraudulent coach of the year award. Like when you look at what they did with that offense, with the lack of talent that they had on that offense, like they were like 10th in offensive DVOA. The leading receiver on that team in terms of total receptions was Richie James. Was it Daniel like Bellinger after that? Isaiah Hodgins. That was the name that I was seeking for. Isaiah Hodgins had 33 catches.

11:13Saquon actually did lead the team in targets, but from terms of receptions by a receiver, Richie James was number one, Darius Slayton was number two, and then Isaiah Hodgins was third. This thing was put together with like gum and toothpicks, and they made the playoffs and had like a real NFL offense, and it was very impressive. But they never were able to expand beyond that. And my question about Dable, and this was something that I have about a lot of head coaches, is that there are guys, when I think about their personalities and the way that they're wired, when things are going well, a lot of guys will be fine.

11:47The problem with being a head coach in the NFL is, and it is inevitable, that you are going to hit some sort of downswing. And the story that really stuck with me, and I've told this story plenty of times, I wrote a story about Brian D 'Abel in 2021, like when he was, his candidacy was very real and he was doing a great job as the Bills offensive coordinator and just kind of what he would look like as a potential head coach. And Derek Anderson told me a story about being in Buffalo and Brian Dable was the offensive coordinator and how when he went to the booth, it was actually a really good thing for him because he was able to kind of remove himself from the emotions of being on the sideline.

12:23And you can't do that as a head coach. No. And so when you look at what he has been as a head coach and just the snip snap with the offensive play caller, obviously everything that happened with Wink Martindale, even going back to that moment with Jackson Dart in the blue tent and against the Eagles like three or four weeks ago, I just felt like there was a volatility to his personality that made being a head coach specifically a little bit of an issue. And you combine that with the inability to find the right defensive coordinator and lock down that side of the ball. And I think that is enough to kind of land on an answer where even if they're doing some decent stuff on offense, even if he has shown an ability to coordinate and call plays for an offense that outperforms its talent, all of the other aspects of this job have eluded him in the moments where he really has needed to tap into it.

13:08You just want your head coach to feel like things are settled. And there's nothing wrong with being like emotive. A lot of the best head coaches are Jim Harbaugh will start screaming and yelling and stuff. Pete Carroll starts screaming and yelling and stuff like Dan Campbell will get really animated, but there's always a sense of like settled and they feel like they're in control of everything. But they will just does not feel like you've ever gotten that sense. And so that on top of some of the play calling issues, it just seems like, yeah, I don't know that the head coaching job, I think has been a little bit much for him.

13:32I had not heard the anecdote about him being in the booth, like kind of removing it, but it does make sense though. Yeah. And that was one that stuck with me. And I think that when you hear just about his personality, it's not necessarily surprising. How do you feel about the Jackson Dart injury stuff and how it plays into this? Because a lot of people have gone to that this week, and I can understand that. As in him getting hurt, that was kind of a final... As often as he has. The fact that he's been banged up so much over the last month or so, I think at the end of some of these games, running him and using him as sort of a hammerhead when the game is out of reach, that I think you can say is irresponsible.

14:06I think what was most troubling to me is, again, going back to that moment with the blue tent, it felt like there was a real desperation in the way that Brian Dable was seeing Jackson Dart over the last four or five weeks. Essentially, as soon as he became the starter, it's like, this guy is my ticket to survival. And he was treating it that way in a manner that I think wasn't necessarily fair to Jackson Dart all the time. I think it's best encapsulated in that moment on the sideline in the Eagles game, but I think the way that he used him as often as he did as a runner, even when these games were out of reach, I think is another good example of maybe a misstep on that front.

14:42I think it was like for them to use him. It's the late in game stuff because I do think it's a little bit hard to untangle because I think part of it is the running him late in game stuff, but also like Jackson Dahr just plays that way. Yeah, it's just like, I don't know. Yeah, like there's some amount of it that is Dable's fault, but like Dable could have protected him better late in these games and there still might have been two or three times this year where Jackson Dahr had to come off the field and get checked. I just think that there's some element of that. Like some young players just need to learn that.

15:10Like there are some young quarterbacks that come into the league, especially guys who are big time runners in college that just don't have a sense for when do I need to get down? Like, honestly, I was surprised. Like Drake may has come along in that sense as much as he had. I thought Drake may was going to get himself hurt very early and he just, that's something that he's developed quickly. And so Jackson dart may do that, but it just seems that like maybe that was just never a point of emphasis for them because of what you're saying, where it's like they kind of need Jackson dart to make every play available.

15:36and so you kind of just let him do that stuff. But I don't know. That to me, like, there's a lot of stuff I'll put on Dable and I do think there was an amount of desperation, but I'm not really going to be that hard on him for that one. I have a question for you because I found myself more interested in it than I thought I would be today when I was thinking about it. Mike Kafka is the interim coach on this team. Mike Kafka and Brian Dable aren't like tied at the hip sort of guys. They didn't know each other really before they started working together. They come from different offensive systems.

16:09I think personality wise, they're pretty different. Is there any part of you that's a little bit intrigued about how this is going to go? Just because then you remove that component of having to make him start over next year if this actually goes well. Like we've seen this happen in the past and I often don't like it as an idea. Like the Dirk Cutter, Jameis Winston thing is the first one my mind goes to. Freddie Kitchens. That's the worst possible version of this. Yeah, that one is probably unfair to Mike Kafka. That's the worst possible one. I think Freddie Kitchens never, ever, ever was somebody that was talked about as like a potential future head coach in the NFL.

16:44Mike Kafka has been. Like, I think that there's at least a little bit of interest in this for me. And part of that is because who would be like the hot shot offensive coordinator you would hire as the Giants head coach to overtake this thing and see the next stage of Jackson Dart's career through? I mean, it kind of just have to be Kubiak, probably, right? Like, he's probably going to be the only guy that people are going to be that level of interested in. And even that, I'd be curious. It's probably a year early for me. Yes. On that, I would imagine. And I, yeah, I think that's going to be a larger conversation.

17:13I think there are a lot of things to take into account as we project certain offensive coordinators moving forward into that head coaching role. And so I don't think that there's like this huge pool of candidates on the offensive side of the ball, if that's the direction you want to go. So I find myself like at least a little bit intrigued and what this might look like with Mike Kafka in New York. I hadn't really considered it because I usually just kind of go in auto assuming like they're not going to keep the interim. That's usually how I am because hiring the interim is usually a bad idea. But like it does happen like more than we think.

17:41Like once every couple of years, like the Dirk Cutter thing, the Freddie Kitchens thing, Antonio Pierce holding the job. Obviously, that's not like an offensive play call or thing, but still like these guys. But that's why I go into making the assumption that it's not going to happen. Wasn't Mike Malarkey an interim as well. I think he was, I want to say he was the interim head coach in Tennessee before he got that job, wasn't he? Maybe that one I don't remember as much. I want to say that was the case. Now I can't remember. But the point is, the majority of the time, it's usually a bad idea. It is usually not a good idea.

18:11Yeah. So he was the interim head coach in 2015 and ended up taking over in 2016 and lasted two years for the Titans. The reason I think, again, if you wanted to make the case, right, if I was just doing this for the hell of it, Kafka, it's hard to keep track who the offensive play caller has been for the Giants because again, it's been back and forth and back and forth and back and forth. They started that first year when they started, Kafka was the offensive play caller. And so I believe that season when they really did outperform expectations on offense, he had a big hand in what that thing looked like.

18:37And so if you can tap into that and then maybe improve on some of like the personality management stuff that Dable didn't necessarily have the best handle on, is there a chance you can actually find something here? And you go out and you seek out a new defensive staff, all that kind of stuff. that should be on the table. But I think I'm just more interested in the interim stretch for this coach than I am with most of them because of all of the factors at play. I think for me, it's just like I'm trying to imagine how good does it really need to look for them to make that consideration? It's a great question.

19:08I don't even know if it's about how good it looks on the field. I think it's a combination of that and like what it looks like behind this. And just like what he feels like owning a room. That makes sense. I mean, that's half that's more than half of the job anyway. As far as how attractive this job is, I think it is attractive on multiple different levels. You know, you have an arranged marriage with the GM, which that can go either way. But I think you have an arranged marriage with the GM that I can't imagine holds like a ton of power in that building. Right. Like if you find the right head coaching candidate, it kind of reminds me again of going back to the bear situation where like I think Ben Johnson has a lot of say in what is going on there and the players being picked and all of that because it hasn't necessarily been a rousing success with the general manager.

19:47So I think the power dynamics are potentially in your favor. I think you have an organization that desperately wants to be patient, like desperately wants to be patient. I'm sure it pains them so much to be doing this now. If they could give a guy six, seven, eight years to see this next thing through because there's a level of confidence, I'm sure they would love that. You have a quarterback that I feel better about him today than I have ever felt about him as an NFL quarterback based on the way that he played yesterday. I thought his work on time from the pocket yesterday was some of the best he's ever done in the NFL.

20:21The Bears defense is awful right now, but I was very. That's still like you need to check that box at least if you're like a competent player. It's not even about the results. It's about the process and like some of the throws he was making from the pocket yesterday on time within the rhythm of the play. I was like, OK, you combine this with some of the out of structure playmaking. There's a lot, I think, to be intrigued by here. And then you think about like the pillars outside of that. Like they have real players at some of the premium positions that are hardest to find. They have a borderline all pro left tackle when he's healthy, who's played at an extremely high level since he came back this year.

20:55You have a really, really talented receiver that has a torn ACL right now that will be coming back. You have multiple pass rushers. Like you have three like potential building blocks on the defensive line with Carter, Dexter Lawrence and Brian Burns. and then by the time we get to like 2027, you kind of have like a blank slate financially other than that. They've got a lot of pretty bloated contracts on the books right now because they've had to solve problems because of bad drafting. That's another thing we should mention with Joe Shane is that like there are a lot of swings and misses at the time in the first round specifically when he wasn't picking in the top five and with Evan Neal thing, even when he was picking in the top 10.

21:32The reason that you have to spend all of this money on Paulson and Debo is because you missed on Deontay Banks. And so there's a lot of makeup contracts on the books through 2027. But when you get there, this is a team with a lot of financial flexibility and most of those pillars that we're talking about still under contract. And so I do think on a bunch of different levels, this could be an attractive job in this cycle compared to some of the other ones that will come open. It's probably going to be more attractive than a lot. A lot of the other ones you are starting from like ground zero, which can be fun in the sense of like, OK, we can do whatever we want here.

22:06but that's also like gives you the most room to go wrong because it's just hard to build an NFL team so I think that that could be scary for some guys I do think the thing I'll say about Jackson Dart I'm not sure he's good yet I'm not sure he's ever going to be good but I thought given the offense he played in and given some of the issues I had in college I thought he was going to be one of those like DOA type of quarterback prospects and he's not there's like at least enough there that I'm like you know what we can see this thing through for like another couple years and I'm interested to see what it looks like.

22:33I'm interested in a way I was not six months ago during the draft. I totally agree. I mean, guys typically with his background, when you think about the offensive system he came from, the hit rate on guys from that offensive system. They've never been good, really. It's never really worked out. And I think even beyond that, because you don't want to scout that way, right? When you're watching guys, you want to try to remove that part of the equation and be like, all right, the best I can, how do I try to separate these things? And when I was watching him, I just felt like some of the spatial awareness, which was like, all right, how are you feeling, defenders?

23:01and how is that playing into your process? If it's not like a defined read within this structure of this very gimmicky sort of offense, what do you look like? And I think there was a decent amount left to be desired. I will say, he's really athletic. He can solve problems that way right now as a scrambler. Obviously, we know what he can be as a design runner probably too much. And I do think that the work he's done against the blitz and the accuracy, there's a lot to like there. And so the fact that he can solve some of these problems and the fact that we've kind of seen him step outside of what that looked like in college, I have been impressed by that.

23:33I'm on the same boat as you are. This is the first game I watched yesterday where I was like, okay, the things he's doing here are intriguing to me. And so I'm not sure where I land on it, but I think if you're a coach, we talked about this on the previous show, if you're a coach potentially taking this job, I think you can look at what Jackson Dart has been to this point, combined with the fact that based on everything I've heard from everyone who talked to him in the pre-draft process, he is made of the right stuff. I do think that this is becoming a selling point for the job, even if it feels like a quarterback that you're going to have to be tied at the hip with.

24:06All right, let's take our first quick break here and then come back with a little Ravens Vikings.

24:16The Ravens beat the Vikings yesterday, 27 to 19. The Ravens moved to four and five. The Vikings are also four and five. Just the fact that those teams have the same record is absolutely incredible right now. What side of the ball do you want to start with?

24:33I kind of want to get Ravens offense out of the way. Okay, let's do it. That's how I watched it. I think with the same thought process in mind. I went in the other way, actually. I went in watching it the other way, but I guess technically that now the Ravens offense is a little bit more fresh in my mind. Very weird game to start, I felt like. In the sense that I feel like the first two or three times the Ravens got to third down, they just did not want to play football, which I thought was interesting. And maybe that was them trying to sniff out, okay what is Flores going to do to us and stuff and so it felt like a very conservative game plan overall and then to me I think it found that it took them a little bit of time to like find what their run game was going to be and I think as the game went on a lot of they're just like putting Patrick Ricard at fullback getting into I formation and doing all this like some lead zone some like lead toss a lot of their play action stuff with the lead insert from the fullback the best plays they had all day every Vikings line Blake Cashman like tried to take on Patrick Ricard on those play fakes every time and there's just a valley of space in the middle of the field and lamar hit all those throws and so i think i really think that like them settling into that formula a little bit in this game was really good for them that was my favorite stuff that they did so the stuff that they were doing out of like 21 personnel with patrick kirk card it's it makes sense when you're playing against a team that likes to run blitz right because by using some of that run run action stuff from heavy personnel you're feigning that it's going to be a run in a bunch of different ways even beyond the play fake and i think that you're getting those linebackers to either fire or come downhill extremely hard.

26:00You mentioned it. Ricard cut Blake Cashman at the line of scrimmage multiple different times because of how hard he was filling to the line of scrimmage. And so you have this ocean of space on some of these in-breaking play action routes. I like that part of the game plan. I think they really did tap into that by the end of the game. The run game stuff, it still feels to me like they don't know what they want to be. They just don't know what they want to be. I'm glad they found enough in this game with some of the lead stuff. like they were able to tap into it enough, but I still feel like I want more pullers in this offense.

26:32That's kind of where I land. I tend to agree with you. Do you want more pullers in the shotgun run game or do you want more pullers with them just lining up under center and running the ball? I would honestly probably say shotgun. The thing is, I think they want to get Lamar like fully healthy and activated maybe before they lean into that much. Because since he's been back, he hasn't run like that much. He's barely run at all. Yeah, there were like one or two times in this game, like in the red zone, he checked to something for himself. But other than that, they really did not weaponize him. And so that could be part of why they're not using it.

27:02Because I think when you add Lamar Jackson on top of players moving every which way, that's just like a nightmare run game scenario to deal with. They just maybe don't feel as comfortable tapping into that yet. Yeah, I just feel like it still feels unsettled in the run game. Because I just you look at the shotgun run game and they're not doing a ton of like read stuff where they're leaving guys on block to even give him the option of keeping the ball. And so there were maybe like two plays of that this game. If you're not going to do that, then there's really no benefit to being in the shotgun as part of the run game.

27:28And so maybe that's the reason that I like the feel of the under center run game a little bit more right now. But you're probably right in that the ceiling of it is higher the more they're going to run out of the gun. But overall, right now, it just feels like they're kind of grasping at answers. And that's kind of what the Keaton Mitchell stuff felt like to me, where it's like, all right. You know, they were even doing a little bit of like two back stuff with Keaton Mitchell and Derrick Henry in this game. And so I think the couple pops they got from him where it's like, we just need to find something here.

27:56Like, let's say even if the creases are not going to be as big, can we get a guy that's hitting it maybe a little bit quicker in order to take advantage of that lack of space? I mean, that 22 yard run that he had, that's an inside run. The same run they ran later in the game with Derrick Henry. He just hits it so quickly that it looks a little bit different. And so it just feels like they're still searching for answers there. and I don't think they've really settled on the right ones yet. I mean, even on the play right before that, because I think he had two back-to-back pretty nice runs, they do a little bit of a toss to the right-hand side, and Bateman actually does a really good job getting a piece of Van Ginkle on that play, but it's still not that big of a crease for him to get around Van Ginkle and go, but Mitchell has a giddy-up in the backfield that Derrick Henry doesn't.

28:40Derrick Henry is like, once he can get to the line of scrimmage, and really start moving, it takes him four or five steps to really get to max speed, And once he does, obviously, he's the most terrifying man in football. But getting him there can be trickier, whereas Mitchell is as soon as he wants to go, he can go. And so them tapping into that a little bit, I do think, especially if they're not going to use Lamar, where the whole sell with this backfield last year was that Henry is your power and Lamar is your speed. Well, if you don't really want to run Lamar that much right now, which is totally warranted given his health, you kind of need to get Mitchell a little bit more activated and use him as your speed.

29:12It's a really good point. And I think that that's a good thought. And I can see them tinkering, right? I can see them trying to find the right stuff. I think it's just taken them a while this year compared to last year, which is fine. It kind of felt like gangbusters out of the gate. Oh, yeah. The passing game in this yesterday against Minnesota, I actually, I didn't mind like the way that it looked down to down for most of this game. They had some frustrating moments in the red zone. I kind of thought like Lamar just did not play his best, but I thought like in terms of them doing the right stuff.

29:39Really? I thought he played okay. I thought he was fine. I think it's just like my standard for Lamar is like, What are the plays you feel like he left on the field? There were a few throws over the middle of the field where I thought he was just triggering a beat late. Like on the Mark Andrews one, that is technically a drop. Yeah, he just kind of misses that. He's like a tad late. He misses that. There's in the red zone, too, I think he's trying to throw. They have like a double post concept from the right. He's trying to hit Bateman. He kind of tries to like line drive it through his back shoulder where he kind of could just leave it all, like give it a little bit of air, leave it on the back line.

30:11Those are the two throws where it just felt like he was a tick off. Exactly. Andrew Seam and that Bateman double post. And like when I think of Lamar, it's like he's a monster over the middle of the field. And so when you just chip away to cut like a couple of those misses that he wouldn't normally have, it's like that's how it feels that way. I think he played fine. And as the year goes on, he'll obviously be fine. I just like that to me was part of the uneasiness that and then trying to find their footing in the run game. It's like that's how it can feel imperfect. So here's the reason that I was actually kind of encouraged in the way that it looked, even with a couple of those misses.

30:38I thought he looked more settled in the pocket than he has at times this year. And that to me was kind of the most worrying part of watching them in early stretches of the season. Like even that Lions game, we've talked about it a bunch, where the final box score numbers and the advanced stats, they look okay. But it just felt like the offense was scattered whenever they dropped back. And this game specifically, especially against a team that's going to be blitzing you on like half of your dropbacks, I actually thought he felt pretty in command for a good chunk of the game. He was pressure, nine quick pressures for the Vikings in this game.

31:12They had a 38 % pressure rate overall. He was only sacked once. He had one sack wiped off because of a Dallas Turner roughing call. But for the most part, they avoided disaster. His pressure to sack rate this year and the sheer amount of sacks he was taking earlier in the season was detrimental to the health of this passing offense. And so to see him not get sacked in a game where he was pressured a decent amount, that I liked to see. We talked a little about this in the previous show, but obviously the first the last game between Brian Flores and Lamar Jackson in 2021. It's kind of an inflection point for like how we think about Lamar against the Blitz.

31:45Watching him beat the Blitz in this game with his arm is just so, so, so much different than it was earlier in his career. And so the fact that he felt in command in those moments, he understood where to go with the ball on time. And it did feel like he was more comfortable within the pocket in this game that he has than he was earlier in the year. that kind of leads me to where I'm saying I actually felt good about the way that he played even if we had a couple of those scattershot moments I do agree with that like I said like he's I mean he's Lamar Jackson he's probably going to be fine for the rest of the year I do think him feeling settled in a game that like this is the one deep I know the Vikings defense this year overall has not been as good as we want it to be first of all the last couple weeks they have been for the most part they're healthier now they're getting healthier and I will say too like they I thought specifically their interior played really really well both like in the like Like a lot of the pop runs that they were getting were not because the defensive linemen, the interior were doing something wrong.

32:36It was like an edge guy loss or they had a good read play or it was one of those crack toss plays or whatever it was. And so I thought the interior played well, run game and pass game. And for Lamar to not really feel unsettled against all of that, that to me was like, OK, for the rest of the if they're going to make this run and go in the division, that was what you wanted to see. Because the middle of the field stuff, that'll come back. He's Lamar Jackson, like those throws, he's going to hit those throws. I think that's kind of why I didn't think much about it. Even if he was a tick off in this game, again, how comfortable and calm he felt compared to early stretches of the season.

33:07That was encouraging to me. I'm with you on the interior of the Vikings' offensive line against the interior of this Ravens' offensive line. That's part of the reason I think they've just struggled to find their footing in the run game is that they just aren't mowing people down. Like, that's just not happening right now. You look at, like, and the Vikings are a unique challenge, right? So the amount of stunting and the amount of, like, stunts and run blitzes that you're going to get, there's so many moving parts. and trying to keep track of guys in space is difficult. But when you watch like the guards and even like Tyler Linderbaum right now, it's just like, there's just something missing here.

33:36Like I hope they can find it because it is the same group for the most part other than swapping out McCary for Voorhees and even that only happened because of injury last year. It is the same group. And so I just, I'm wondering like what that little secret sauce is that's missing because it does feel like there's something that's not there right now. That is the part of it that's weird to me. Like it's mostly the same guys outside of a replacement level left guard. Like the fact that it just feels a little bit more unsettled is a little bit weird to me. All right, let's get to the other side of the ball.

34:05What were your impressions of the J.J. McCarthy experience one week after the Lions game? I just don't think he's good, man. Like I just, I know he, here's the problem of why he's the most frustrating quarterback to talk about. He does make three throws a game that are like, holy shit. The guy's got a hose. Like there's really no denying that. The touchdown to Jalen Naylor in particular, where he like rips that corner to the right side on fourth and 10, I'm like, he can spin it. Like he can spin it. But I still, the general way that... Oh yeah, the touchdown. I thought you meant the slot fade that he throws through 61 yards.

34:35That one's like whatever. No, that one's whatever. That's why I responded that way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the fade is like, he does a couple of those again. Those are whatever. The corner route he throws on the fourth and 10 is like, okay, that's like every now and then he can really spin it. I just get the sense that like, he's just... When I talk about like, obviously Drake May is like a really, really special talent in my mind. But when I watch May or even like Jaden Daniels last year, it just feels like settled. Every time I watch J.J. McCarthy, it feels very, very frantic. Yes. And I think it feels very frantic.

35:06And I think the guy would compare it to in terms of like the franticness, like Caleb Williams looks frantic sometimes as well. I just think Caleb Williams is a different sort of skill set that J.J. McCarthy does. He's more talented. That's kind of what I mean. If it goes wrong, yeah. Yes. That's like the ability to solve problems in the franticness. He has that gear in a way that J.J. doesn't. I'm not trying to wave away the franticness. I do think that's a concern. But with JJ, I think there's less to kind of talk yourself into while still feeling that way. I think that's the problem. For me, it's when he'll get to the top of his drop, and he did this four or five, six times in this game.

35:40And when he's stepping up in the pocket, he'll almost like crow hop up in the pocket. Yes. Like into traffic. The rhythm is bad. There were multiple times too. Sometimes he'll crow hop and it's like just rhythm-wise weird. There were also multiple times in this game where he like ducked down and was like trying to get under somebody that I just his whole sense of pocket awareness right now. I just I really struggle with it. And like, it's actually funny. I posted the other day on Blue Sky when I was watching Cam Ward. I was like, he just has the rhythm of a player who is good. Like eventually this stuff will get figured out.

36:12He just like rhythm wise moves like someone who is good. JJ McCarthy, I feel the exact opposite. I'm like, I watch this and the rhythm just feels wrong and disconnected. Do you think that's something that can get better? Like this is somebody who is an extremely young player who has not played a lot of football. And I think it's different. But when I'm looking back at some of the other first round picks who have ultimately struggled in their first stop, not failed necessarily, because these are a lot of guys who have found success later. Like Sam Darnold didn't play. That was great when he was young.

36:41And so I think sometimes when you're a really young player, if you had asked me this five years ago and been like, do you think that pocket awareness and the ability to navigate that space and how comfortable you feel in that space, is that innate or is that something that you can learn? I think I probably would have leaned toward innate. Now I do think that there are enough examples of guys kind of honing those skills over time that the fact that some of the physical stuff is there and it really does feel like the rhythm and the feel is what he needs to develop. Is there any part of you that thinks that can happen with more time on task?

37:14I think absolutely. I think I have two concerns with it right now. One being that like, to me, you're starting at about as low as you can in terms of like how the rhythm of it and just like his sense for the pocket. I think you're starting at a really, really low spot. The other thing too is like in my mind, the guys who have figured it out, whereas Sam Darnold, I think he has figured this out. Gino Smith figured that out over the course of his career. Josh Allen, I think, had a fine sense for the pocket, but his rhythm as a player was dog shit for the first two years. I don't know what type of notes he was playing.

37:42It was really, really bad. We're just going to memory hole that 2018 Josh Allen season. He was not good for the first couple of years. And then Caleb Williams, I think, obviously, he's still imperfect, but I think this year is way better than it was last year. all those guys to me were just like way more talented as Gino Smith maybe athletically is probably not that different from JJ McCarthy he was never like a super athlete but I do think Gino's arm was better Sam Darnold's arm is obviously insane Caleb Williams Josh Allen I do think there is a level of the arm talent is almost like informative of the rest of the way that you move can move your body in a way and I do think with JJ I just I struggle with that sometimes like when he throws it just looks hard like it looks like he's straining to throw the ball that's the biggest difference between him and like a Sam Darnold yeah like Sam has like the easiest throwing motion that you can imagine and with JJ I do think that there's a little there there definitely is like a strain on some of these throws there is not with some of the other guys that you're talking about can works like Baker throws like that too but also like it took Baker like five six years of developing other parts of his game and he even he I think came into the league with a higher baseline just like played a lot more football you know one of the most accurate college quarterbacks we've ever seen all that sort of stuff so it can work like there are parts of JJ's game like some of the imperfections we've seen other guys work out of and obviously he's very young I just we're starting at what feels to me like a very very low point when it looks good it looks good like the first the first third and sixth of the game where he's getting rocked on that blitz and he throws the ball to JJ on the right on I was I used to call Justin Jefferson JJ now it's confusing so when he throws the ball to Justin Jefferson in the right flat it's like all right that looks good uh there was a throw he had to Justin Jefferson down the down the hash in the red zone that is actually like not a bad ball.

39:23That ball, that was his best throw of the day. And that was like, and it doesn't get completed, but you watch that and it's like, all right, like I can talk myself into that. Some of the throws he, some of the balls he has like on outbreaking routes, like on time, if it's number one reading the progression, that looks pretty decent. But anytime he's asked to like read something out or go beyond what his first read looks like and he's asked to play without that initial rhythm of like, I'm hitting the top of my drop, I'm throwing the ball. That's where he runs it into issues. Like you see it all the time.

39:50The best example to me in this game was the near interception that he threw. Oh, excuse me. It was batted down. It was the first play of the second quarter. And it was a play action shot where if you watch it, there's an inbreaker coming to the left side. And then he has Hawkinson over the ball. And if this is a pure progression play, it should just take him to Hawkinson, which I assume it is. And instead, he throws like the crosser to, I think, Jordan Addison into double coverage. And it gets batted down at the line of scrimmage. if it hadn't gotten batted down at the line of scrimmage, that ball probably gets intercepted.

40:21And so that's one of those plays where it's just like, how do you even get to that decision? And there was another play where it's kind of like a touchdown, a check down type of thing where it's another play action. He's looking at the deeper routes as they're unfolding. Then he comes back to the check down and then he doesn't throw the check down and then he comes back to the middle of the field. And it's like the rhythm even mentally, the way that he's playing, feels like there are issues with it combined with some of the problems you see with his rhythm physically. I think that's a really important thing because I think all these young players are going to be imperfect in one way or another, but at least like, again, when I watch like Cam Ward, and the reason I'm using him is obviously same draft class and all that stuff.

41:01When Cam Ward makes mistakes, the process is pretty consistent to me and I understand the growing pains that he's going through. Whereas with J.J. McCarthy, it feels like it's something different every play and I can't even really trace back what he was trying to do on a given play. And then there were just like awareness-wise some weird stuff with him. Like the first interception he throws, he climbs up in the pocket and Justin Jefferson is like, or I think it's Justin Jefferson. It is. Yeah, it's running down like the right sideline just inside of the numbers. And he steps up in the pocket and he is, it's third and six, he is scot-free.

41:35There's nobody over the middle of the field. Maybe he would have to beat Roquan Smith at the sticks, but that's a play that every scrambling quarterback should take and go take that space. And instead of taking the space and trying to get to the six, he just chucks it up, a balloon between the numbers. You cannot throw up a balloon in between the numbers. It's number three, throws it right to the post safety. Yeah, like, throws it right to him. Every free safety is going to get to that ball. That's just one of those things where it's like, take the grass in front of you. Like, I don't know what he's, like, just, it's certain plays like that where it feels like the spatial awareness and, like, really playing to what is around you.

42:05I think he just struggles with sometimes. Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think that's a perfect example on that play. The second interception, don't really care about that. oh yeah there's one route yeah it's a one-man route it's one-on-one to justin jefferson he falls down yeah like that that's a play where i don't mind it at all but the the first interception that is i in my nose i literally said yeesh that was my description for that play that one is bad and then actually his other maybe worst throw is the almost interception by roquan smith where he has jordan addison on the right side kind of as the isolator receiver ravens are running a little bit of cover too and Roquan Smith is the hook player to that side and so he starts to sit under that route and like squeeze it and McCarthy is staring at it the whole time like he's in his head he's like I'm throwing this ball to Jordan Addison and he sees Roquan Smith squeezing it and is just like I can fit it past him and it's like you just you got to do a little bit more than that and then just like I can throw it past him you got to do a little bit more with your eyes you got to come back to it later whatever it is and so him just staring that down and again with the way that Roquan Smith has been playing this year.

43:07Like that's just, he's going to make those plays. And then the throw after that, he just like throws a 13 yard out over just Jefferson's head. Like it just, it's too much inconsistency like that for me. I want to talk a little bit, I want to talk about Roquan Smith and the defense in a second because he's playing crazy. He's playing crazy good right now. He's playing crazy good right now. And there are a lot of things that we should mention about the defense. How do you feel about like the plan the Vikings have on offense right now, independent from the play of the quarterback? because those things are hard to separate.

43:36But this is yet another game. And this has happened a couple of times this year. I'm trying to remember what the other example was when we went back and we were talking about it. It might've been the Falcons game. It was another game I think we did on the hangover where I ran back and I watched it and I was like, why is this the plan versus man coverage? Like, it just feels like we're not getting a lot of rubs. We're not getting a lot of picks. Like you have a lot of isolated routes where guys just aren't open. And in this game specifically, like I don't think JJ McCarthy played well, but I also don't think there are a lot of guys open when the Ravens were playing man coverage in this game, he finished four of 13 versus man coverage per next gen stats.

44:12He had 87 yards on those throws. 61 of them came on that slot fades Jalen Naylor. So it was like a non-starter whenever the Ravens were playing man. Some of that is the Ravens defense kind of finding a gear with their current personnel. But still, like you have Justin Jefferson, you have Jordan Addison, you have like real players here. I was just a little bit surprised at how hard it felt independent of the quarterback play whenever the Ravens decided to play man coverage in this game. I mean, I think it's a couple of things. I think one, like maybe he's just like, even if you're doing a lot of these, like trying to create rub routes or whatever it is, like the quarterback still has to do some amount of looking through traffic.

44:50And maybe JJ is just not comfortable sorting that out yet. I also just think he's not very comfortable for the most part, throwing the ball like between the numbers right now. And so I think that's why a lot of there, it's a lot of slot fades. It's a lot of these 12 yard outs. They keep throwing a lot of flat routes. Like I think part of it is they're a little bit limited by what they think that he is capable of consistency. And this game, he did throw over the middle more than he had in the first handful of starts that he had. Like he almost did not do it at all in those first few games. And so there was a little bit more of it in this game.

45:17But I think a lot of it is like really trying to ease him in with throws that he is clearly comfortable with and then working in the rest later. Looking at the numbers this year, the Minnesota Vikings are 31st in the NFL. and EPA per drop back against man coverage per TrueMedia. And some of that's quarterback play. But again, it just feels like something is off when teams want to play a lot of man against them. And that's how I felt again while watching this game. Part of that, again, is the Ravens defense. I like the Ravens defense. They're good at you. They're really good at you. I will see what happens when they play against better offenses, right?

45:50I mean, the teams that they've played against, they play against the Bears who have been playing okay, right? Like the Bears are a top half of the league offense by EPA per play. and the Ravens had a really nice day against them three weeks ago. And then you play against the Dolphins, you play against the Vikings. And so I want to see them against better competition. But when I watch how the pieces are all supposed to fit together right now, there are a few different things that jump out to me. One, Roquan is like back. And like him erasing that space in the middle of the field consistently is really, really encouraging.

46:20Two, Kyle Hamilton's a monster, like with the way that they're deploying him. And I think that when you combine that with the corners being able to play the way they can in man coverage now, you really feel that. And so the fact that, and even like when they're playing Dime now and you could potch Joe Beowoozie outside and now you have Humphrey and Hamilton, like they just have a depth and a soundness in the defensive backfield they did not have before the Gilman trade when they moved Hamilton. And even like you felt the Draymond Jones thing. Like it's just like that, like one last piece in the front, the fact that you don't have Matt Abike, you're still trying to figure out that group.

46:53Like I feel really good about the trajectory of this group in a way that I would not have in the first like five weeks of the season. It really is because it's everything. One, Hamilton is now being deployed in a way that he could just complete weapon. And so he's playing like a star. Roquan Smith looks like he's playing like a star again. I think Marlon Humphrey is having a really good season. There have been basalations with him every now and then, but like he's been insane this year, I think. And so their three best players playing like their three best players, I think is super important. But then it's the other stuff with the front.

47:22Like I think Travis Jones has been better than he was for the first month of the season. Obviously getting Draymond Jones has been in there has nice. I think Mike Green is having some decent games. Like the linebackers are still a little bit up and down outside of Roquan Smith, but they're at least willing to come up and hit and take space, which I think is valuable. And then I talked about him a couple weeks ago. I really like Malachi Starks. Like he's every now and then athletically, you're like, he's maybe not like one of those all pro kind of guys. But when you have two or three other all pros playing in the middle of the defense anyway, it's fine if he's just like a really good glue guy type of a racer and i really do think that yeah i i just think that he has that gear to him i think he's a really really nice player yeah i mean i'm curious to see where this unit goes from here like if you look at like the season-long stats at this point they're still not in a very good place because of how bad the early part of the year was but i do think that like we're kind of realizing a potential gear they might have all right we're going to take one more quick break and then come back and chat a little steelers chargers

48:20this game overall is not complicated to me it's kind of a simple game for the most part like i don't there's only like three or four things i think you need to hit on in order to properly understand what this chargers win looked like do you agree with that yes i so this was one where it was very easy for us to like kind of tune out in the moment because we were like working on other games during, obviously during this game. And as I was watching it, I was like, okay, clearly this game is disgusting and the Steelers offense is being gross in a way that sometimes they're gross. When I turned on the film and watched what Aaron Rodgers was doing, I was mortified.

48:56Like this was one of the, I think, most offensive games a quarterback has played all season. It's just kind of what he is now though. Like if you, but it was like that versus a really good defense. Yes. And so that's what it looks like. I think the biggest problem was against the Chargers. we know this what do you need to do against the chargers in order to have any semblance of success against them when they're like a mildly healthy if you can't run the ball on this team it's over like you need to be able to run the ball on this team based on how they want to play the sealers had a 22 rushing success rate into light boxes with jaylen warren last night per next gen stats it's over like that is if you can't do that especially when you are the steelers as constructed is just a non-starter.

49:39And so I do think that's a good place to start just like with the Chargers role in all of this. Yeah. I thought every single guy on the Chargers front had a play in this game. Every single one. Aboyby had plays in this game. Jamar Caldwell played really well. I thought that Deshaun Hand had multiple really nice moments. He's been like quietly kind of nice this year, actually. And Caldwell kind of coming on a little bit. And, you know, the Steelers had a backup left guard to start the game. And then they eventually moved Spencer Anderson to left guard. I think because of some of the issues that they were having, but otherwise it's healthy offensive line.

50:11And I think you felt tire tart multiple different times against the guards in this game, even Mason McCormick at right guard. And so, and then the, uh, Roger Jones had a couple moments where he struggled in pass protection. I think the Odafe Owe thing, one of the, my favorite things about it now that Mac is back is that it lets you move Thule inside and some of these pass rush looks. and he's big and physical enough where you can use him on some of these stunts. And I actually really like overall, like how that group is coming together. I was really impressed with the way that they played last night.

50:43Their edge group now that Mac is back and they've traded for always way deeper. And they just have, it's a lot of different body types too. Cause like Mac is, I mean, he's kind of the do it all. He's incredible. There was, he blew up Darnell Washington on, like setting the edge on the leg. When the Seals were backed up in their own, he just exploded him. And that's what he does. That's why I like watching him. But so Mac is Mac. but Dupree is like a fine like backup he helps you set the edge and like run defending he's like you're Khalil Mack light I think he's a good body for that Thule is just like a really crafty pass rusher he's a bigger guy I think he's really good with his hands like a good effort type of guy that you want in your room and then always just like all speed all the time so now they truly have like a body type for everything which I really think is nice and then to to go into the front a little bit more I think Denzel Perryman is actually playing like a really good football they missed him yeah he was not playing they absolutely miss him he's insane I think he's like obviously in coverage he mostly is what he is he actually did have one good play in this game but like going downhill in the run game he is an absolute problem the other guy that I wanted to mention on the defense in this game who I actually thought had some really nice moments Nico Reed yeah undrafted free agent playing in the slot because they're currently without Tar Heep still who has heard he's missed the last two games Nico Reed played 21 snaps in this game he had played 15 his entire career up to this point, 14 last week.

52:01And he had a couple really nice moments in coverage. He had like a PBU. I was very impressed with him. And so the fact that you're getting all of these contributions, even from like end of the bench sort of players, that was the type of performance it was from the Chargers defense last night, like completely across the board, a really, really good showing. Yeah. I was just like, this was when they were having some of their struggles for the first like seven weeks, I mean, relative struggles, they were never bad. They were just like kind of mediocre when they should have been elite. This is what it's, again, the Steelers offense but the Steelers offense has been fine so again this is one of those like if you're one of the best defenses this is the type of offense you should beat the shit out of and they absolutely did that on Sunday what the what the Steelers offense looked like yesterday is kind of just what I expected a Aaron Rodgers led offense to look like in 2025 against a bad defense or against a good defense we talked about this all offseason he wants to play a very very specific brand of football.

52:56And if you know what that looks like, you can absolutely extinguish it with the way that you're game planning. The fact that there are multiple plays in this game where Bud Dupree is taking away throwing windows because he's dropping off the line of scrimmage because they know exactly where he's going to want to go with these throws immediately. It's very easy to take this team to take away what this team wants to do if you're not letting them run the ball and use play action. And that's just what it feels like. The only quarterbacks right now after this game in the NFL that have a worse passing success rate per NextGen's death than Aaron Rodgers.

53:28You ready? Justin Fields, Jake Browning, Russell Wilson, Cam Ward, J.J. McCarthy, and Dylan Gabriel. So rookies and like the other worst quarterbacks in the league. Guys who've gotten benched. Yeah. Or like almost benched. Yeah. Every single one is a underperforming rookie that people are freaking out about. Guys who've actively been replaced or a quarterback who is openly trashed by ownership have been and during an interview and was almost replaced and had like 40 yards this week of passing on non-play action throws this season 63 percent of rogers's passes have come in less than two and a half seconds because it's all just like pick aside bullshit that's always that's what it was last year we knew that's what it was going to be he does not want to play the position anymore and that was why the run game is important because if they're running the ball then they can do some of their play action stuff they can stay a little bit heavier and they can like kind of force him out of it in a way like Arthur Smith can a little bit do more what he wants.

54:23You can incept him into doing what you want him to do. Exactly. And if you can't run the ball, it comes back to, okay, second and eight, Rodgers is going to pick a side. And the thing is, that can be fine if you're seeing it at a really, really high level. He's just not anymore. Like even on the first third and four to open this game, the Chargers have DK Metcalf in the slot to the left-hand side and the nickel is playing inside leverage and DK Metcalf runs a slant and Rodgers looks like he doesn't understand why the route was cut off. Yeah. Like you're 40 years old. You've seen this a million times.

54:53Like it's just way too much stuff like that for a guy who, again, this is supposed to be what he's good at. You can't see it well when all you want to do is make decisions pre-snap. There's only, you can only see it so well when that's the way that you're operating, playing the position. And that's why I was so skeptical about this working out overall, because when you watch the way that he played last year, it's like, he doesn't want to read out the plays anymore. Like you can only do so much as an offense when that's the way that your quarterback wants to play. And I think last night was the low point of it.

55:24But I'm not surprised that we've gotten here based on the last two years we saw of Aaron Rodgers as a starter. It goes back to Green Bay. He was doing the same shit in Green Bay the last year we saw him there. And so this is not a new problem. I just think now we're realizing the limitations when your quarterback wants to play this way. When they play against the real defenses, this is what it's going to look like. They'll probably have a couple of decent games the rest of the year against lesser defenses. but when they play the real teams, when they rock up to Baltimore, whatever it is, it's going to look more like this.

55:50Let's get to the other side of the ball. Again, this is a very, very simple conversation for me. The Chargers could do two things in this game, for the most part, two. They could spit the ball out into the perimeter immediately. Nope. Okay. All those alert screens. Okay. And that is an option for you. Or is Ladd McConkie going to beat the nickel corner across his face over the middle of the field? Those are the two things. that was enough over the course of this game for them to win because of what their defense did against the Steelers. That was legitimately it. And there was, okay. Some of the alert screen stuff, I actually, they went through it too much in this game.

56:26I want to be clear about that. They threw literally like 10 of them. I honestly don't mind it. It was, it was one of the only things they could do. It literally was not that bad. And I also think like, that's the best way to use Quinton Johnston. He's a big guy who can move. If you can spit him the ball out like that against off coverage like he can make a guy miss and there were I think two or three different times in this game where he did that where they're playing eight yards off Herbert just rips it the most I know this is a ridiculous thing to say is impressive but there was an alert screen that they had where Herbert has the the isolated receiver I think it's Quentin Johnson is lined up outside of the numbers and from the far hash he immediately throws this alert screen to the other side that sounds dumb but like there are not many quarterbacks who have the immediate arm strength to snap it out.

57:10Although usually when you're doing that, it's like the guys lined up like just inside the numbers and it's like not that far of a throw. He was ripping it all the way to the side, which is like, that's crazy that you can get that out there. And then honestly, on the Ladd McConkie play, the one that he catches on the deep over on that third and sixth to end the game, it's an okay throw. I think Ladd McConkie makes an insane play there. Like he slows down to make sure that he can get that throw and like block the receiver out of it. I thought him doing that and like making the quarterback right there was really important.

57:38Justin Herbert in this game, 30 % of his attempts came behind the line of scrimmage. He was 10 of 10 on those throws for 67 yards. They were some of the best plays they had in this game. Typically, I would excoriate an offense for operating this way. It is the most dishonorable thing that you can do. But in this game, when you can't function, you cannot hold up and pass protection if you're hanging out to the ball. He had a 2.21 second time to throw in this game and still had, per next gen, was a 30 % pressure rate. I was going to say, he's probably still pressured a third of the time anyway. You watch it happen, and that's why you watch this game, and it honestly is kind of depressing, because you look at the state of the offensive line.

58:18And I understand that Joel's not coming back at this point. And the three guys in the interior are the three starters that you began the season with, and the center and the right guard specifically are playing about as poorly as anybody else on the offensive line yesterday. And so the fact that this is the state of affairs and you, I understand the Steelers front is a different sort of beast than a lot of the ones that you're going to play against. But you are going to have to play against teams like the Broncos in the playoffs. You're going to have to play against the Rams in the Super Bowl if you get there.

58:48Like teams like that. You're going to have to play against Micah Parsons and all those kinds of teams. The Ravens, what if you're like the fifth or sixth and you run into them? The good teams are going to have pass rushes. And so even if it's not quite to the level that the Steelers have, it's going to be a consideration and this group is just not equipped to hold up. And so it's the way that the defense played last night. It's like, oh, shit. Like the defense is back now a little bit. Our producer, Katie, dropped this in. They're number one in defensive EPA over the past three weeks. Like you feel that.

59:17And they are playing at a pretty good clip right now. And the quarterback, you know, he almost threw a pick to. What was that? Joey Porter. That was a bizarre. He's got one of those a game at this point. But what is being asked of him? You're throwing 40 times and getting hit every play. He gets one. He gets one of those a game at this point. he's playing at an extremely high level the defense is really good I just it's hard to muster up a lot of excitement about this team when you look at the current state of the offensive line that's where I fall different team obviously but it's a little bit of like where we're at with Niners it's like there are parts of this that I enjoy and are impressive but ultimately like some of this is just like way too beat up and stripped down that it's hard to imagine them being a true contender and the Herbert thing really does it's frustrating because I I really think I'm spoiling the art midseason show a little bit I really think if I had to like rank MVP candidates he would be like third for me like he is the numbers are impossible to argue him for the MVP but it just in terms of like most valuable player most for their team who is the most load-bearing player like Herbert is absolutely up there he's in the conversation for sure based on like what is being asked of him within that offense and I think that yesterday was a very good example of it like you look at the final box score he didn't do anything crazy like it's not a good Justin Herbert game, but what is being asked of him given the current state of that pass protection now that Alt is hurt again?

1:00:35It's a non-starter for pretty much any other guy you could put in there. Alright, let's get to our sole Monday morning voicemail. We're hitting that one at the top of the show. We've got one sad fan from yesterday that we want to help talk through their issues. Katie, let's hear it. Hey guys, I just crawled in the bed after driving home from Charlotte. It's a long day. I went into this week with some actual expectations. It was like I was letting myself start to feel again after it felt like we'd beat a legitimately good team. But then I watched the Panthers put up seven whole points against the Saints team that is actively rostering multiple corpses.

1:01:20I had a lot of time to mentally decay on the drive home, and now I'm standing on the cliff's edge of being done with Bryce again. which of course feels like an overreaction but what has he actually done this year to look like a starter and I am just tired of 200 rush yards and 125 passing yards being my offense is plan A and then not having any kind of plan B but yeah I'm not even sure I have a fully formed question here I just need something to undo the damage of the day maybe I'll just start getting into hockey or something. But, yeah. Thanks, guys. No, you don't have to get into hockey. It's never going to be that bad.

1:02:05I like hockey, but you don't have to give up football for watching hockey. We talked a lot about this last night, and I think if there is some silver lining here, it's that there is a decent amount of stuff about this team overall that I think you can buy into. We talked about the last couple weeks, you notice the pieces on defense and them flashing. Derek Brown is a good player. Trevin Merrick has been a good free agent signing. J.C. Horn, when he can stop falling down, is a very good cornerback. There's a lot. Corners have games like that. So what can you do? He's had some amazing moments this year.

1:02:38And so I do think, and the defense is always going to be a work in progress. There's still plenty of spots. Off-ball linebacker and then just corner depth overall. That was something that they're going to need to address heading into the next offseason. They knew that, right? They knew this was about getting from historically bad to bad. bad, right? Like that was the goal. Can we go from historically bad to slightly below average? And that's exactly what has happened. And so I think the vision on that side of the ball has, has come into place, even if it's not a great group on offense. I think there's a lot to like, I think there's a lot to get excited about.

1:03:10Like this is an offensive line that has not been healthy all year. And they still have been able to run the ball on their terms consistently. Dotto looks like a fantastic free agent signing, right? Like he's been really, really good. And I do think that McMillan, despite some of the health of the passing game concerns, he's somebody that you can get really pumped about. So there are a lot of component parts here. They've got$30 million in cap space next year. They're in a place like we discussed last night. It probably is time to think about what this team would look like with a different quarterback.

1:03:41The avenues to finding that guy are going to be limited. But to be in a place where in your mind you can actually rationalize if we get the right guy in here, what can it look like? That's a tough place to land when you consider everything they gave up for Bryce Young. But there are worse places to be as an NFL franchise. That's the thing. It's tough because you have to go do it. And trying to find the quarterback is like it's impossible. but to be five and five with some of the worst quarterback play in the league is actually in a way like kind of a cool spot to be in like I really do think like the offensive line especially if they got a little bit healthier like they really do have something I mean they have one of the best guards in the league right now I think Damian Lewis has been unbelievable and so if they can get a little bit healthier there that would be great and then again Teddero McMillan I think is going to be a superstar the running backs are really good the defense is again it's not good but like you've got one some of the pieces that they've signed have been nice for them like Merrick I think has been nice um obviously you draft JC Horn and give him the extension he looks like he's been all worth it I think Nick Scorton has actually like really started to come along the past three or so weeks for them and so okay you've got a little young exciting draft uh edge that you can get excited about like I really do think and to me like the other thing is I kind of like where the coaching staff is at like there's nothing where I'm like they're the Sean McVay Rams and I think they're going to explode but I think they're like checking the box for like this is a quality coaching staff.

1:05:01It really is just like, can you find the quarterback? And that's a tough spot, but like, I don't know if they can find whatever the crown jewel is, whatever that means. I really do think they're in a decent spot. We'll see how this draft ends up shaking out and whether or not there's a prospect available in the middle of the first round that you feel good about. I just came to something that I had not thought about previously and you're probably the wrong person to ask about this. Indivision might be tough. You call this a rat man. Honestly, the Saints kind of seem like they're in a place where they don't really like care so much about like what other people are thinking about what they're doing so they might be willing to trade in the division a little bit like they're I think they're done with it with Rattler so I mean you might as well to call this offseason where it's like if you if it's either Tyler Shuck or somebody you're drafting and Spencer Rattler is going to be at best a backup for you moving forward based on what we have seen from him so far this year like that's kind of what I'm I don't need to see this team with like elite quarterback play I kind of am curious what they would look like with capable quarterback play.

1:06:01And so it's going to require some creativity this off scene to figure out what the right answer is. And we joked a little bit about it last night. It's only a joke because of the similarities between the players. I actually do think from a football perspective, Kyler Murray in this spot is at least interesting to me. Maybe there's a chance where teams would never hire a coach with the same background as the coach they just fired. That would never happen. So maybe it's possible that the Panthers are like, we can't trade for a tiny quarterback. Yeah, we can't do the 5 '10 quarterback. Even if I think that's a lack of vision.

1:06:36Because the other one is like every other aspect about him athletically is insane compared to Bryce Young. And so the fact that, again, we're in a place where I'm actively sitting there in quiet moments trying to figure out how the Panthers can solve their quarterback issue and what this team would look like with different quarterback play, that's not a fun place to be as an NFL fan but I promise you you know this as a Panthers fan there are much much worse places to be than that it's better than needing all of it yes at least you really just need the big thing and again Robert Hunt comes back next year he's been hurt all year we'll see what happens if uh I think Aquano is a free agent right is any of hitting free agency this year excuse me next year is his fifth year option oh okay so no so this year is a lot of this so next year is his fifth year option he's at least back next year you've got a lot of the component parts of this roster, the important pieces coming back next year.

1:07:28The only guys that, so Doudle's a free agent, right? And so that's something that you have to potentially figure out. The only other guy that's hitting free agency for this group this year that I've actually thought was like really good this season. And I'm curious what they do as Kate Miss. Yeah. I'm curious what they do. Like even yesterday, the fact that they kept him at center when he was healthy and they put Corbett at guard, I think really does tell you what we've gotten from him so far this year. And so the fact that even that stuff is happening where you're like stumbling into guys worth being excited about, that's not a terrible place to be as a fan.

1:08:01So hopefully you don't have to just start watching exclusively hockey. Hopefully that was a little bit helpful. All right. That is all we've got for the week 10 hangover. Like I mentioned at the top of the show, please check out our Eagles Packers recap that is available on your YouTube feeds right now. So I mentioned this on social media today. We had 50 ,000 subscribers on the YouTube channel today. You know, it's, I'm happy with that. I'm like, it's been a journey with the YouTube channel. It's something that, you know, we've taken a while to kind of figure out what we wanted it to be and where we wanted it to go.

1:08:34And, you know, if you go check out the type of stuff we're doing right now, it's different than anything we've ever done. Obviously all the stuff that we're doing from the studio, but Derek's doing a standalone video project every single week. This week was about all the heavy personnel groupings that the bills are using and kind why they've been able to tap into that, why teams are trying to seek that out. The fact that we have access to these NFL highlights has really allowed us to do stuff that we've never been able to do before. We've got great production people on the back end now, people like Katie and Scott who've come on for us this year.

1:09:03And so I'm excited about where it's at. I'm excited about where it's going. If you have not subscribed to the YouTube channel, now is the time. It's your only way to check out those Monday and Thursday recaps and all the other YouTube-specific stuff that we're doing. And if you haven't watched the Sunday Night Recap shows on YouTube, We've got highlights in real time now. I've got a lot of new graphics. And so this year feels a little bit different on the YouTube side. And so if you have not looked at what we're doing over there, I'd encourage you guys to check it out. We would appreciate it. For now, that is all we've got.

1:09:32We will talk to you later.