Week 3 Hangover: Chiefs win ugly, Vikings and Commanders cruise, Nick Bosa out for the season

0:00Your next unforgettable experience can happen anytime. Take an Amex card with you for rewards wherever you go. Morning coffee run with an old friend? Earn cash back. Weekend getaway? Earn miles. Amex rewards your inner explorer. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com. Terms apply.

0:20Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. Today it's the week three hangover with me and Derek Klassen. Do this every single Monday into Tuesday. Hit a couple or a few games that we did not get to on the Sunday night recap. For the most part, and I mentioned this during the recap show last night, because we prepped the Sunday night show during the Sunday night game, will mostly lead this show with the Sunday night football game. And today is no exception. Kick things off with the Chiefs-Giants Sunday night game. Moved on to the Bengals-Vikings game. A big win for Minnesota without J.J. McCarthy. And then finish things off those three games with the Commanders and the Raiders.

0:58Robert Mays: And then ended the show by hitting a few of your voicemails in a segment that we are calling Monday Morning with a U. If you're going through something on Sunday night, we want to hear from you. and we tried to talk through the issues a few fans were feeling three weeks into the season. Really enjoyed the show. Hope you guys do as well. Let's get to it right now.

1:23Robert Mays: There are weeks, Derek, when the slate that we're going to dig into makes The Hangover an apt name for the show. And I would say that the three games that we're going to talk about today fit the bill. A little sleepy, the three games that we're going to dig into today, but I'm no less excited to have these conversations. I want to be very clear about that up front. Yeah, I think the two games where teams allowed 40 plus points in like kind of bizarre fashion in some of those cases and then a giant Sunday night game. It's like that is why we named the show what we named the show. Yeah, today the hangover is exactly what we're getting into, but we're going to hit three games today.

1:57Robert Mays: This is the normal format that we talk about on the weekly hangover, three games we did not get to on the Sunday night recap show. If you guys have not checked that out, either in your podcast feed or on YouTube. Highly encourage you to do that. If you're watching on YouTube, please like and subscribe to the channel. If you want to check out the Sunday Night Recap, you'll see all the new stuff that we're doing this year. There are actual highlights from the plays that we're talking about. Got some new graphics packages, just really trying to level up on that side of things. So if you guys are not YouTube listeners or viewers and are interested in checking it out, now is the time to do that.

2:29Robert Mays: So we're going to get to those three games. Before we do that, though, some news breaks on Monday morning that really does kind of change the complexion of the NFC playoff race. We talked last night about how the Niners were 3-0 despite some of the injuries they had already endured. Unfortunately, there's a big one they're going to have to deal with over the course of the rest of the season. Per Ian Rappaport, Nick Bosa, torn ACL, he is now out for the season. I mean, it's just like brutal. We talked about it because we kind of like couched this a little bit on the show, right? Of like, okay, the cool thing about what the 49ers have done is they were already a shaky team that we knew that we're going to be a little bit top heavy and we're probably going to be a little bit up and down, but they've given themselves this 3-0 cushion.

3:09And like, because they have this 3-0 cushion, even if things do get a little bit more rocky from here, they've still set themselves up well to at least get into the wild card. Like maybe they won't still win the division. I think we think the Rams are really good, but like this is a team that I think we thought in the very best case scenario, the absolute star power of this team could propel them to like a fairly deep playoff run. but Nick Bosa you really needed him to be around for that especially with with the defense you know Fred Warner is kind of your only other guy on that side of the ball and so if they don't have him again maybe they can still squeak into the wild card and they probably will but this is not the team that has the same teeth that I think you know they did literally two days ago the defense

3:47Robert Mays: has shown some impressive flashes early on despite how young they are I think you know Michael Williams had a couple moments Upton Stout has had a couple moments so I mean they they are playing at a really high level so far through three weeks and this is take it with a boulder of salt we got three games. These are all very, very small samples. They're sixth in defensive DVOA through the first three games of the season. I think Robert Saul has done a very good job. But the entire calculus from a season-long perspective for this group was you can be as young as you are and as unproven as you are at so many of these spots because you're orbiting around this nuclear star power at middle linebacker in one of your defensive end spots.

4:22Robert Mays: And you take that away and the entire formula starts to disintegrate a little bit. I think that's kind of where we might be with the Niners. They played much better than we probably expected early in the season on defense, but this really does change what your expectations for them should be over the course of the rest of the year. Exactly. And then like, again, especially once they get to January, like their schedule really outside of the division is not that hard this year. And so that does help them a little bit. But again, for a team that is supposed to have some sort of serious, you know, playoff aspirations once they get there, not having a Nick Bosa caliber pass rush is pretty tough.

4:54Robert Mays: And the other part of it is that, you know, Bryce Huff is kind of their third pass rusher. he's a great third pass rusher you can use him situation when that's all you need him that's exactly and so now it changes the slotting of everybody else and it's a really big blow for a defense that really was relying on those stars as they had some of those younger players come along a little bit slowly so 3-0 for the Niners but the entire thought about last when we were talking about them last night was when they get healthier what will they look like now you don't get healthier on defense now this is something that you'll be dealing with for the rest of the season let's get into our three games from last night start with the Sunday night game the The Chiefs beat the Giants 22 to nine.

5:31Robert Mays: Where do you want to start with this game? You want to start with the Giants side of this or the Chiefs side of this? I want to get the Giants out of the way because I just, we can, I think, have a more considered conversation about what the Chiefs are doing. I think that's the right way to do it. Just get this done and then we can get into the Chiefs part of it. Let's get the Giants stuff out of the way. We already had Brian Dable kind of coming out today, pretty much tiptoeing around the quarterback conversation in a way that he has done increasingly over the past weeks. Like he already kind of started in week one.

5:56But it's gotten to the point where we're clearly going to get Jackson Dart by October. And honestly, I'm at the point where with it, where I think them playing Dart is probably failing him and is probably bad for him with the way the offensive line is set up and him just being a player that I think is going to need time. But what Russell Wilson is doing out there is just like I just he's holding on to the ball. It's not making a lot of the right throws like I just that red zone sequence where he throws the ball away multiple times, not even giving the team a chance like that. that type of stuff is just incredibly frustrating.

6:27Robert Mays: Yeah, I mean, there are so many plays in this game where you just get the full-on Russell Wilson experience. My favorite one is the pick that he throws to Wendell Robinson. And that's a big crosser coming from right to left. And he just never looks at the backside safety. And then there's an in-breaker coming wide open underneath it. And he just doesn't even look at it. And the Russell Wilson experience, we've known this over the last few years. there is no more pronounced touchdown to check down player in the league right now than Russell Wilson probably is because the scramble element is completely gone all the other guys who play touchdown to check down they're this touch the check down part is mostly them taking off with their legs he does not have that option anymore and there were so many moments in this game where you really feel the limitations of playing that way and we talked about that coming into the year dart is going to give them some limitations in some ways but are those limitations worse than whatever limitations you're going to live with with Russell Wilson.

7:24Robert Mays: After watching this offense again last night, I'm just not sure how that could be the case. That's the thing. I'm not sure Dart is going to be any better, but I'm pretty fed up with the Russell Wilson thing. And like, even so in this game, the Chiefs were playing, the Chiefs play a lot of too high generally, but they were like extremely willing to play a lot of too high. They played 50 % cover too. Yeah. 50 % 5-0. Because if you're going to be in this cover too, it's like, all right, you're either going to hit on your deep shots, which Russ really did not do at all in this game, splitting the safeties and stuff like that, or underneath, you're going to be perfect.

7:54And Russell Wilson, even at his best was literally never that player. And so like they just dared him to do that. And even part of why New York, I think was able to run the ball is because they were playing a lot of those looks where it's like, when you play cover two, you're just a little bit lighter in the box. And when you're lighter in the box with some of the defensive line personnel that the chiefs have, you're going to get run on a little bit, but they were fine with that. They were like, you know what, if you're going to move the ball and it's going to take you 12 plays to get down there, we don't think you're going to finish drives.

8:18And the giants didn't enough times.

8:20Robert Mays: Yeah, the run game was fine over the course of the year, over the course of the game. And I think that the structure is worth pointing out on that side of it. But I mean, I made the joke last night on Twitter. At this point, Russell Wilson, his entire approach is just that scene from Knocked Up where he's doing the dice in the club. And Joan Hill goes, he's going to the dice too much. And Jay Baruchel is just like, I think that's all he's got, man. I mean, that's kind of where we're at with Russell Wilson. Like, that's all he's got is him just pushing the ball downfield as much as possible. That's a viable strategy against the Cowboys defense.

8:49Robert Mays: It is not a viable strategy against almost any other NFL defense. And this has always been what teams, I say always, this has been the modern approach to Russell Wilson is you just throw a bunch of junk zones at him and he typically has trouble with that. The Cowboys were the exception to that. Now I think we're only seeing this push further into the extreme where his limitations are more pronounced. And now you're seeing even more extreme approaches to him. Like 50 % cover two over the course of an NFL game is absolutely crazy. But I think that this version of Russell Wilson warrants that sort of approach on defense.

9:23It does. Like he's again, he's like such a specific style of quarterback. And to beat a specific style of quarterback, he plays specific style of defense. And Spags is not afraid to do any of that.

9:31Robert Mays: I did like some of like that diamond formation to tight end stuff that the Giants were doing. Some of the run game was pretty cool. Yeah, that was like the only like the schematic stuff. I was like, oh, that's interesting. They had a couple like chunk plays off of that. Essentially, every time they sent both of the tight ends to the strong side of the run, they had a chunk gain on the ground. that's really the only thing I had written down is like oh that that's kind of interesting everything else from the Giants offense nothing notable in my mind and then even on defense like they played a ton of man coverage and you know you had some moments from the pass rushers in this game like Burns had a couple really nice moments and then Dexter Lawrence obviously is still a problem to deal with but you know these the corners are still a concern like Paulson Adivo gets shook by Noah Gray on a whip route and man coverage at one point during this game and so the front has talent we already knew that but this idea that the talent up front could carry them with you know forgettable pieces on the rest of the defense that was kind of the argument for why the Giants defense was going to be different this year and so far that just has not really come to fruition no this was finally the game where to some degree the Chiefs found the deep ball a little bit which is like has been a struggle for them the entire time like the hit it takes multiple tries to hit Thornton where he you know Mahomes does hit him and he kind of ends up dropping it and then they hit him again and stuff like that but I what in terms of the New York Giants defensive gameplay and the part of it that I thought was interesting I think this is really more of a cheese point than anything they ran like 46 % cover one yes they just said even with what our corners being what they are we're just gonna run with your guys and dare you to beat us and honestly for a lot of the game they didn't until they were hitting some of those deep shots and I actually do think that Kansas City ran the ball a little bit more efficiently in this game than they had the first couple of weeks which helped but this was a lot of like hey man we're gonna dare you to just like beat our guys one-on-one and outside of like you know that route that you mentioned you know Paul Sanadiba gets shook and then like one or two you know Kelsey and Noah Gray had like those little pivot routes that they'll throw on one-on-ones other than that like the Chiefs really did struggle to be one-on-one coverage for a lot of the game I do think that says more about the Chiefs pass catchers than it does about the quality of the Giants secondary and I think again it just feels like that defense is we thought that the pass rush might be so overwhelming that whatever holes they had at some of these other spots or question marks at the very least would matter less and that just hasn't really been the case the chief's defense the chief's offense is struggling mostly because the chief's offense has its own set of problems right now yeah i i couldn't agree more so let's get into those when you're watching this chief's offense right now what do you think kind of is at the center of why they feel as frustrating down to down as they are at this moment.

12:04They're just not fast or explosive. Like even the players that are supposed to be or have previously been in this offense are not like I know this has been the case with Kelsey for years now. But the issue now with Kelsey is I don't think he's actually a worse athlete than he was like last year or anything. Like I don't think we're getting more steady decline there. He's just doing a lot of other weird stuff. Like the first play of the game, he's supposed to be blocking down on like a gun rollout and he just wants no part of it. Just doesn't want it.

12:28Robert Mays: It's Burns. and he has no interest in touching him. Yeah, it just doesn't want to do that. He had multiple just like, no thank you, blocks in this game. Kelsey did, multiple. Which like you can't do. Like it just like that is, as especially one of the guys who is supposed to be the leader for the team, I think that is pretty tough. And then he in, this to me is less like a, you know, didn't want to factor, but him and Mahomes had like a weird miscommunication on like a check down where Mahomes kind of pumps it like he doesn't want to throw it. I think he's trying to move a linebacker. Whatever he was trying to get doesn't come open.

12:57And Kelsey keeps kind of shifting a little bit more towards the hash, towards the middle of the field. Mahomes throws it back to the spot he thought he was sitting on. And like, that's just not a miscommunication that those two used to have. And I feel like they had a couple in the first two weeks that were like that. Like they're just, whatever is going on, like Kelsey looks fine athletically, but all the other stuff has been weird. And then there's just no other speed elsewhere. Like Worthy is obviously not on the field. Rasheed Rice is not on the field. And then Hollywood Brown, like he's not that fast anymore.

13:25Like he's been, he's a smaller guy who's been banged up for a lot of his career. And like, he's, he's not slow, but he's not, I think the burner that he was, you know, four years ago when he was playing for Baltimore in Arizona.

13:34Robert Mays: I think the explosiveness of pass catcher is part of this. I think Taequann Thornton is pretty explosive. He's helped. When I watch them play right now, it just feels like it's, I'm trying to find the right words for this. Cause I think later in the game, they did start pushing the ball down the field and they benefited from pushing the ball down the field. But when I watch them right now, it just feels like an offense and a quarterback to an extent. That's just very risk averse, right? I think he's just very aware, even in games like this, where the deep, the pass rush isn't overwhelming. He's just aware of it at all times, like any little flash of color.

14:10Robert Mays: And he's trying to buy time outside of the pocket or he's trying to get rid of the ball. And if you look at it in this game, nearly half of his attempts over the course of the entire game came in under two and a half seconds. And that's kind of how they've played over the last couple years. And listen, the offensive line still isn't perfect. Tinklusio Matai had a couple moments in this game. Josh Simmons had a couple moments in this game with Brian Burns. Juwan Taylor got dumped a couple different times over the course of this game. I don't think Trey Smith played his best game. I don't think he's played his best throughout the entire season.

14:40Robert Mays: But are we at a point where the pass protection needs to be perfect for this team to want to push the ball even into the intermediate part of the field? Because that's kind of what it seems like right now. And even in the moments where they did do that a little bit yesterday, the intermediate throw specifically, they're having to scheme up these plays. They're running actual sprint outs. And then he tries to throw the ball to it's a little corner route to Taekwon Thornton on a little RPO to the right where he's they're moving the pocket on that play. Like every time they're trying to take shots or even access the intermediate part of the field, they're not doing it within the normal rhythm of their passing game.

15:16Robert Mays: They're actually schemed up attempts to do it. And the one to Thornton I really wanted to talk about, because I think this kind of goes to what you're talking about, about I think Mahomes is not playing his best ball. And he feels to me just like antsy. Yes. A little bit. That's exactly kind of what I'm getting at here. And like with that play, they sprint him out to the right and Thornton, they're running like basically smash where one guy's running out to the flat and then Thornton's kind of running that high corner. You see the RPO on the flat thrown typically. Yes, exactly. But he takes the high one on that.

15:41And he, but he throws it so quick. Like he, the ball is coming out before Thornton is on the break. And like on a lot of routes and in a lot of instances, that's fine. But like Thornton is in no position to get his head around and try to catch this ball. And he's clearly not. And like, it's not the worst location, but Thornton was just not ready for it. And there was space. Like if Mahomes waits a half beat, there's no defender up above Thornton. Like he's going to run into space and there's plenty of time there for him to make the throw. And he just like rushes it out because he's like, oh, this is the only chance we're going to get to make a play.

16:11And he misses it. And like, he's just, I think Mahomes is not playing some of his best right ball right now. There was even they ran like a rap concept a little bit earlier in the game where you just have like the little five yard hitch route and you run like that in breaker behind it. He could have progressed to it and he just like doesn't and he turns it down and scrambles for like four yards and just he's doing more stuff like that than you would typically get from him in his best.

16:32Robert Mays: Anty is exactly how I would put it. And with the balls not out immediately, they're struggling just because I don't think he's really trusting what's in front of him. And I don't I think some of that is maybe you come into the game, you're worried about that defensive line with the state of your offensive line because it's still an imperfect group. But I don't think the quality of the pass protection should be leading to this approach from the offense and the quarterback. I think there's a little bit of misalignment there. I don't think this is last year where you're constantly terrified about what's going on at left tackle.

17:01Robert Mays: You're probably more worried about what's going on at right tackle right now. But I don't think it should be this anxiety inducing. And right now you feel how sped up and just how uneasy he is in the pocket. That plays a perfect example of a little rap route. I don't, this might be the same one, but at the end of the second quarter, they have like a backside inbreaker where Hollywood is kind of coming into it. And Trey Smith loses to, I think it was, I can't remember who it was. I think it was Darius Alexander. It might have been because he had a pretty good game actually. And so Darius Alexander, but it's not immediate, right?

17:31Robert Mays: Like he's just starting to, Mahomes I'm sure is just starting to see that little flash of colors. he's waiting for. He has time to hit that thing on the backside and he just doesn't do it. And that's what the offense feels like right now. And then even when they're trying to take shots, they have these little imperfections that are kind of torpedoing some of these plays. There was a play early in the game where they try to take a play action shot. Pacheco knocks Simmons off of Thibodeau. And then he tries to check it down to Pacheco and it's an incompletion and it's like a lateral, right? And so that happened once.

18:04Robert Mays: It happened again late in the second quarter where Pacheco actually does chip the defensive end on that play and then turns the wrong way. He turns backwards and Mahomes throws it backwards for a fumble. So even in those moments where they're trying to do everything they can to add an extra body and protection to give them that extra half beat to push the ball down the field, there are these tiny details that are sabotaging those efforts. And so that's actually the running back room is another point I want to make. And I know this sounds like we're just like making a lot of excuses for a very good quarterback, but we've pinned this on him a little bit.

18:35He's not playing. He's not playing up to his level. He's not. The running back room, though, they might be the worst in the league. They're all slow for the most part. They don't do anything well. They don't do anything well. Even in terms of trying to get an efficient run game, the offensive line, I think, has been playing better than the running backs have gotten. And then even on passing downs, the idea is that, okay, Kareem Hunt, he's going to come in, he's going to be a decent pass protector. He can do that, but there's zero threat of him being anything as a pass catcher so it's like what is really the value of him being a decent pass protector and then Rashard Smith is kind of the opposite like he's not going to be a pass protector for you you know if he's on the field they want to throw him the ball but his head's spinning a little bit he's a little bit late to see stuff he's just like not always in the right you know doesn't have great chemistry yet with Mahomes which fine he's like a mid-round you know late-round rookie but it's just they don't have any answer in that room right

19:25Robert Mays: now and it's very frustrating even the big plays that the Chiefs had in this game were all like kind of fluky place. Like the 27-yard completion of Juju early in the second quarter, that's a play where Mahomes panics in the pocket and somehow manages to slip out and he finds Juju back over the middle of the field. The next play, he's got Noah Gray over the middle of the field, bails from what I would consider like a not muddy pocket. That might be the play that you're talking about, which is the short scramble. And then there was a couple other big plays in this game. The third and sixth completion that he has to Thornton down the field later in the game, He's not even throwing that to Tyquan Thornton.

19:59Robert Mays: He's throwing it to Hollywood Brown on the crosser. And that one was like, that was the most, he is just, he got smoked on that play, by the way. And he was just like, I'm going to throw it. And it probably would have been complete to Hollywood Brown if Tyquan Thornton had not caught it. It's still a great throw, but even that is a fluky moment. And that's kind of what this offense feels like right now. All the explosives in this game were essentially screens, flukes, or that across his body, crazy throw to Taequann Thornton at the end of the game. That's it. You can cut him on one hand. And even that, the throw we're talking about to Thornton where he gets, where Mahomes gets smoked.

20:34The only reason Thornton even ends up open, if you want to call it that, is him and Kelsey both get jammed at the line of scrimmage and they both get beat so bad by the defenders that they just like kind of run into each other and it creates this mess and Thornton just, you know, happens to squirt out of it and get free and then catch that ball. Like it was just fluky.

20:50Robert Mays: The defense, I want to just point out a couple of guys that I actually thought played well. The Giants were okay on the ground in this game, but I actually thought there were some nice moments from the Chiefs' run defense overall. Chenal continues to be a really useful player against the run. The fact that they just line him up at the edge on early downs, even when they're in four down, they're in nickel. And he's just playing that left defensive end on early downs. There are very few linebackers in the league I think you'd feel comfortable doing that with. He does it capably. I thought that Nick Bolton actually had a really nice game.

21:20Robert Mays: He did. There were a couple moments where he gets a little bit lost, but he has a PBU on fourth down on the first drive. He has a run stuff late in the second quarter, which is also a nice play by Omar Norman Lott. He snuffs out a scatterbow screen late in the first quarter for a one yard loss. And then he just takes grass with about three minutes left in the second quarter for a TFL they actually had with Chennault. And so this team still can defend the run. Like they still have the component pieces to be good at that. And even though the Giants had a couple slash gains in this game, I think down to down the Chiefs run defense, there's still a lot to like about it yeah I think given the structure they were playing with they actually played like a pretty decent game and even some of the the ones that they gave up were kind of fluky like or not fluky necessarily like the one of the scatterbow runs I think he got an 11 yard gain Nick Bolton meets him in the hole and he just like misses the tackle which he rarely does and like scatterbow just bounced off him that was kind of the whole thing with scatterbow to begin with and just like they're at least generally in the right spot and like the Bolton play I really wanted to hit on the the pbu he gets where that one is really cool because i think it's a third down they the giants only have two receivers to the right hand side so it's like and they call this cover zero blitz so it's like every all the people on the chiefs defense they know the ball's coming out and since all the receivers to the right side probably coming out that way nick bolton just does a really good job of instantly like okay ball's gonna come out boom get my hands up it just like he's a very smart player i have sometimes issues like can he get to the perimeter when he needs to sometimes he gets lost in space but like he's a very very put together guy man mentally.

22:47Robert Mays: With the Chiefs offense, the last thing I want to ask you just before we move on, what is your fate that this gets sorted out? Do you think we have enough examples where it's just sorted out mean? They get back to like a back half of the top 10 sort of offense when it comes to like down and down efficiency. I think when Rasheed Rice is back, they can be like the ninth best offense in the league again. Eighth best offense, something like that. Why do you think that manifests? Like, why do you think him coming back is what allows them to get to that place? because they would finally, I'm having trouble visualizing.

23:16Because to me, I think the issue with the offense right now is they have zero players where we say, if we find a way to get him the ball, he's going to do something for us. Rasheed Rice is at least that. And I think it at least forces defense to think about something in a way that they don't have to right now, where it's again, right now you are having to bank on some fluky stuff or our schemed up plays like some, you know, little five yard BS route to Travis Kelsey. Whereas at least with Rice, it's like we can get him on the move. We can get him running. He can make a guy miss. and he can turn 10 into 25, whereas they just don't have anyone on the roster who does that right now.

23:48All right, before we move on, we're going to take a quick break. One thing I love about summer is how easy everything feels. Days are a little more relaxed and I find myself reaching for the same comfortable go anywhere pieces again and again. That's why I keep coming back to Quince. They focus on well-made essentials that naturally become those everyday staples you live in all season long. Quince's 100 % European linen pants and shirts are breathable, easy to throw on, and the summer upgrade your rotation needs starting at just$34. Their tees are soft enough to live in all day, and the lightweight cotton sweaters are exactly what you want when summer nights cool down.

24:25Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80 % less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for exceptional quality, not brand markup. Let's rewind a little bit. Let's go back to those tees. Do a lot of different things in the summer. Go to the pool, go to the beach, play with the kids, go to work. Yep. Even in the summer, work is still a thing. And these tees from Quince, they fit all of those and more. Basically anything you can think about. In fact, just last weekend, I went to a music festival with my wife, had one of my Quince tees with me there too.

24:54So they fit every single situation you might be looking for in the summer. Make your summer wardrobe easier. Go to quince.com slash athletic football for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I N C E.com slash athletic football for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash athletic football. Are you always searching for that one hoodie you'll actually live in? The one that feels just right on the couch, on a plane or out on a hike? I found mine with Paca and now it's the only one I reach for. Paca makes outdoor and lifestyle apparel from Alpaca Fiber, one of the world's most sustainable natural fibers.

25:34Their best-selling hoodie is softer than cashmere, warmer than wool, and breathable. And this hoodie is built for real life, thermoregulating, odor-resistant, durable, and made to last. Each one is made start to finish in Peru and features an Inca ID that's hand-woven by artisans, honoring generations of knowledge and traditions and connecting you closer to where your clothing comes from. Over 250 ,000 people have already picked up the pack of hoodie. What makes it even better? Personally, I love wearing mine inside. Actually, I'm always someone who wants to throw like a blanket on when I'm bundling up, but sometimes other hoodies are a little bit too heavy.

26:10They're not as cozy as I want them to be. Not at all the case with packa. They feel warm. They feel cozy, soft, just like a blanket. And for a guy like me, that's what I love. So if you've been thinking about leveling up your hoodie game, this is your sign to do it now. To grab your PACA hoodie, go to www.pacaapparel.com. That's www.pakaapparel.com.

26:37I'm Jonathan Knight, and I'm the general manager of New York Times Games. If you play our games, you probably know there's something a bit different about them.

26:45Robert Mays: Just like there are writers behind the articles you read in the Times, there are creators behind our daily puzzles. Tracy Bennett curates the day's Wordle solution to keep it lively and varied. Winalu creates each connections board, including all those categories that try to stump you. Sam Azersky combs through every last letter, word, and pangram in spelling bee so that loyal players of all skill levels enjoy it. Our puzzles are human-made every day, with the standards you'd expect from the New York Times. And this matters because when you choose to spend time with our games, it should be time well spent solving puzzles that are challenging, surprising, and joyful.

27:23Robert Mays: Puzzles handcrafted for you. We think that's something worth investing in and something worth paying for. Subscribe now for a special offer on all of our games at nytimes.com slash join games.

27:42Robert Mays: it's our next game here the Vikings absolutely destroy the Cincinnati Bengals 48 to 10 and I think that there was some hope that the Bengals offense with Jake Browning could still be okay right I mean we saw this in 2023 where they were still able to be an efficient group with Browning given the pass catching talent on that team I actually thought that was a really nice moment in 23 for the offensive staff for the Bengals. Not a good opening act if we're trying to do that again, because they got dressed down in this game by the Vikings defense pretty much the entire outing. They really did. And I think there are two parts of this that like why it fell apart feels really bad.

28:19One, you've invested enough in the offensive line at this point that you thought it would be better. Like you've drafted Dylan Fairchild, you Marius Mims on the right side, like you bring in some other different help at guard to see if you can have better depth there and stuff and they got mashed in this game Jalen Redman looked incredible uh Levi Drake

28:35Robert Mays: Rodriguez and Jalen Redman looked incredible in this game they looked insane and then obviously like Jonathan Grenard gets his like he's a really good player like they just everyone up front for Minnesota had a really good game and like part of what kind of fascinated me too is Flores went back to other than first and tenths like they on first and ten they were in base defense did a lot of simple stuff anything other than that they were just like blitz front yeah what are they gonna do like the they think the Cincinnati offensive line is gonna pick it up no they didn't and so even on run plays just some of the weird funky you know the twists and stunts and just weird stuff that they were throwing Cincinnati just really never picked it up at any point in this game and so that was frustrating and then the other element of it to me is like Jake Browning's a backup quarterback I understand that he's gonna make some mistakes but I think part of the the reasoning with why this might be okay is like he's done this before in this offense he's very familiar with the with the guys that he's throwing to you would hope that there would be some degree of like floor and competency here and I think at least in this game he was all over the place like he just I think made very few correct decisions in this game and just looked very lost I think that's part of it but I also just think that when you when you're pressured on 57 percent of your dropbacks and you cannot run the ball over the course of an entire game.

29:50Robert Mays: It's hard to do much of anything as a quarterback. And that's what it felt like for them in this game. He was pressured on 57 % of his dropbacks. The Bengals in this game had a 29 % design rushing success rate. If you look at the stats over the course of the season, Chase Brown so far this year has a 25 % success rate on his runs over the first three games of the year. His expected yards per carry is 2.9 yards per carry. That is dead last in the NFL for all players with at least 40 carries. The run game has just been completely DOA. And again, this is not Jonathan Allen and Javon Hargrave ruining your day.

30:29Robert Mays: This is Jalen Redman and Levi Drake Rodriguez ruining your day. They were completely, the entire interior of the Bengals offensive line was outmanned for the entire game against nominal backups for the Vikings. And then if you extend it to even like the higher paid players on this team, Orlando Brown had a rough, rough day against Jonathan Grenard in part, but also in the run game. And so there's really no one up front for the Bengals that is a plus for you right now along the offensive line. I know you're going to be, you're going to play worse teams and worse fronts than the Vikings, but yesterday they had no one that was a plus for them.

31:05Robert Mays: And that unfortunately extends to the tight ends. Like the tight ends are negatives in the run game and it was such a you it was such a telling difference when you watched the perimeter run game of the vikings in this game versus the perimeter run game for the bangles in this game dallas turner actually did a very good job of this but multiple guys for the vikings just really collapsing the edge every time that there was a puller just setting the edge incredibly well squeezing the air out of it exactly like that's what you got to do against pullers squeezing out the entire everything that was on the perimeter they're just squeezing and condensing it.

31:37Robert Mays: And then you look at the other side of the ball and it was the exact opposite. The Vikings captured every edge they wanted to in the run game throughout the entire day. And I think when it's something small, but when that is so pronounced on both sides of the ball, that's how you lead to that. Just how that's what leads to a performance that feels as lopsided as this one was. Yeah. I mean, not to jump to the other side of the ball necessarily, but you mentioned that the Bengals incredibly low success rate as a rushing offense, the Vikings had a 50 % rushing success rate in this game. They got whatever they wanted.

32:05They were good in the red zone. They were good on like goal and short. They were good in, again, getting these, a lot of these wide zone plays that they were going for, really getting the edge when they wanted to. The tight ends, again, blocked really, really well. Like they just, they did a much better job of putting this offense together in a way that the Bengals just really struggled to.

32:21Robert Mays: On one more note about the Vikings defense, I think the front, everybody had a moment in this game. Have a day, Isaiah Rogers. My God. I mean, I think people are going to look at the two touchdowns that he had and think that was a majority of the damage that he did in this game he had like three or four other plays over the course of this game like the argument for we think Isaiah Rogers is a better player than he has been so far at this point in his career we think we can get more out of him I think that's what the Vikings believed coming into this season it's why they were willing to go a little bit cheaper a corner this is a pretty good point in their favor in that argument what Isaiah Rogers put on tape yesterday I already trusted Brian Flores a lot, but I had some concerns about what the secondary would look like this offseason.

33:04I'm getting to the point with Brian Flores where it's like, if he says the DB is good, then I think the DB is probably good. And Isaiah Rogers was definitely that. I actually looked this up too. I looked this up Sunday and I meant to say it Sunday. Isaiah Rogers is the first player since Samson Ebukam in 2018 to have a pick six and a scoop and score touchdown in the same game. And Ebukam did that in that ridiculous Chiefs Rams game that like a million different things happened. But he's the first player in a very long time to have a day like that. So you add that on top of all the other plays he made, just like insane.

33:33Robert Mays: He forces the fumble. What in my opinion is the funniest play of the day. That is easily the funniest play of the day. The forced fumble from Isaiah Rogers, that's not his scoop and score. Just explain what happened on this play. Because I think that there's no better play to explain what the Bengals offense was today than that this is how you explain a team that lost by 38 points so this is uh just inside the two minute warning in the first half t higgins gets illegal motion because they move him over to the right side and then jake browning snaps the ball before he can get fully set so team t higgins illegal motion plays already screwed no matter what then they go they roll with the play jake browning scrambles out to his right crosses the line by like two three yards throws the ball still so a legal forward pass there.

34:17So you've already like double penalty on the Bengals. And then Jamar Chase catches the ball and then gets it punched out by Isaiah Rogers and the Vikings recover it. It was like every conceivable way that the Bengals could have messed up the play. They messed it up.

34:32Robert Mays: Yeah, that was the entire day from the Bengals offense. And it was, it infected every single aspect of what they were on that side of the ball. And then the other play that it still had not mentioned, that's on me. And there's about five minutes left in the second quarter. This is another one, just like a perfect example of what the Vikings defense was yesterday. Grenard just cooks Orlando Brown off the line of scrimmage, but Browning still is able to get it off with some pressure in his face on a vertical route to Tee Higgins in the end zone. And Isaiah Rogers goes up and gets the PBU on that play.

35:01Robert Mays: So the touchdowns, obviously, are going to stand out. That's what's in the box score. That's what you're going to see on highlights. But Isaiah Rogers had plenty of other really nice moments over the course of this game. Let's get to the other side of the ball. Obviously, a blowout win for the Vikings. Carson Wentz, this argument about how the Vikings really want to build a machine where their quarterback only has to make like four or five throws. It was true today. It was exactly true in this game. Carson Wentz made like four or five throws where I was like, okay, all right, nicely done Carson Wentz.

35:30Robert Mays: And then there were another four or five plays where I was like, oh man, that's not what you want. Oh, that's Carson Wentz. Yes. That's exactly what the experience was on Sunday. Yeah. He like, there were a couple where he was throwing some like, you know, dig routes, some of these stop routes, like great timing, just like anticipating it balls out. And I think that's a lot of just like Kevin O 'Connell's like, Hey man, it's going to be there. But like on not those plays, I wrote this in my notes because I felt like this was the best way to, in my head, how it described how Wentz was playing. Carson Wentz was moving and acting as if he was like playing a quarterback in a commercial.

36:00He was doing a lot of like pump fakes that seemed a little bit unnecessary to like move a linebacker. Like the way that he was scrambling outside of the pocket where I don't think he's nearly the athlete that he was like five years ago. And Like, it just, it felt a little bit Russell Wilson-coded, actually, like, where he can do a lot of that stuff. But he, like, he did what he needed to do in this game, given what Brian Flores was doing on the other side.

36:21Robert Mays: I mean, the first throw he makes on that little, like, bender to Justin Jefferson on a high low, like, in the first quarter. Oh, he spins it in there. I mean, that's like, all right, I'm into that. He throws a slant to JJ at the end of the second quarter that goes for 36 yards. Jefferson's way more physical after the catch than he gets credit for. Like I think that people think about Jamar Chase as this like force of nature player and Justin Jefferson is maybe a little bit. Finesse. Yes. I think finesse is the correct word. And I actually think when when Jefferson gets the ball in his hands, I actually do think he is a more physical player than he gets credit for.

36:52Robert Mays: And that was a perfect example. Like it's a slant and he breaks multiple tackles to get 36 yards on that play. And then there was like an outbreaker to TJ Hawkinson on time. It's like, all right, nicely done. But you can probably count him on one hand, like the nice moments that we have from Carson Wentz. and then on the other side of it, there were a couple moments where it's like, all right, I really don't know what to do with this. Like there was a play action shot late in the first quarter and the Vikings do an incredible job of this. The Vikings and I think Ben Johnson with the Lions over the last couple of years, I think are the best examples of this where they do such a good job on some of these play action concepts, whether it's the tight end or the back, they're going to get a little piece of the defensive end and then they're going to leak out late as the check down.

37:32Robert Mays: They're going to be there. And on this play, it's a boot, The all the down the field routes are not there. Jordan Mason is just standing there in the flat and Carson Wentz is looking at him and just takes the sack. And it's like the checkdown is right there, man. And so you had both sides of the coin with the Carson Wentz experience in this game, but they were so good in every other area where it just didn't matter. Exactly. Like, I think you kind of I mean, this was the case last year where the quarterback is going to make like five plays where you're like, come on, man. But can you make enough of them on the other end where it all kind of comes out in the wash?

38:02And I think like Wentz did not play well. I don't even think he played like as well as Sam Darnold's like mediocre games. But he didn't need to like when the defense was doing what it was doing and the run game was doing what it was doing, which that was kind of like. I don't know if I want to say you could give Darnold a pass for some of his bad plays last year, but like they were in a lot of tougher down in distances. And the pass protection wasn't as good in this game for the most part, like the pass protection was very good and they were in favorable down in distances and moving the ball regardless of whatever the quarterback was doing.

38:32Robert Mays: Yeah, I think the run game was really good in this game. I think that a lot of what they were doing on the perimeter, we mentioned getting Christian Derrissaw back, I think was big. He didn't play the entire game, but you saw the difference that he can make. And the other guy that I was really impressed with, considering he came off the bench, I thought Michael Juergens, their backup center, actually had some really nice moments as a run blocker and in space over the course of this game. Him and Donovan Jackson, who I think actually started this game off pretty tough. Obviously, he has like a little bit of a wrist thing now and he ended up leaving this game a little bit.

39:02Robert Mays: Later on, the Vikings checked some guys out when it was clear that things were over. We're going to put some guys on ice right now. They were like, if you're struggling a little bit, we're going to take you out. And so, but him and Jackson, I think on maybe Jordan Mason's like first goal line touchdown, him and Juergens just move Slayton out of the way, like completely just like move, buddy. And that was one of those ones where I was like, all right, you know, Juergens wasn't perfect because he's your backup center. Like he got beat one time on like Chris Jenkins for a sack. But like otherwise, I thought like in the run game, it was like this is what you want from your backup center.

39:33And that was kind of the whole bargain, right? A little bit with the Vikings is it was like you've invested so much in your starting lineup now that you've bumped some other guys who were maybe would have started a lot more games for you last year. Now they can just like be guys who you get by with for a little bit. And Juergens did that.

39:50Robert Mays: Yeah, I thought he did some really nice work in space. The last couple of guys, the last unit I want to mention just very briefly before we get to the next game. I actually thought that there were members of the Bengals defense in the back end. The DBs are solid. I thought DJ Turner on Justin Jefferson had a couple really nice moments over the course of this game. And it just didn't really matter because of their inability to defend the run. I think that was in part on the edges specifically. Like Trey Hendrickson, I think you can take advantage of him in that area. And I think they consistently did that.

40:20Robert Mays: And then any time they needed a DB, whether it was a safety or a nickel to do anything on the edge in this game, it was a non-starter. And so I think that kind of sabotaged what were some pretty nice moments in pass coverage from the corner specifically in this game for Cincinnati. I want to at least acknowledge that there were some flashes that you can be a little bit encouraged by. I mean, I agree. And I think that's even kind of been true for a lot of the year. I think those guys have been playing well. And even like Jordan Battle, not necessarily this game, but like I think last week had played a pretty decent game.

40:48So like they are, the secondary looks better than I thought. The front is mostly as bad as I thought it was going to be.

40:54Robert Mays: I thought the interior. The interior is not bad actually. Chris Jenkins has been better. Slayton is for the most part pretty good. BJ Hill had a couple of, the D tackles, not bad. The D tackles on when it comes to defending the run are actually okay. They were having all of their issues on the edge in this game. And I think the Vikings knew exactly where to pick at it. And they were successful throughout because of that. We're going to take one more quick break and then come back with our third and final game of the day.

41:23Robert Mays: Last game here, the Washington Commanders beat up on the Las Vegas Raiders 41-24. You mentioned we had two defensive touchdowns for the Vikings in this game and then the special teams for Washington. Typically, it takes a lot for me to mention the return game and the gap in return quality between two teams. Whatever the Raiders are doing during the special teams portions of their practices needs a little bit of tweaking. That's what I'll say coming out of this one. It needs a little bit of help. And what's frustrating is like this game was not that out of hand. It was 10 to 10 with four minutes left in the second quarter.

41:56Yeah, like it was a close game. And even before you get the I think the kickoff return touchdown, it was only like a 10 point lead for Washington, which is like that, you know, you're going to have a tough one trying to get back into the game. But that is not like undoable by any means, especially with a quarterback like Gino, who, you know, the efficacy of what he's going to do, you know, can kind of go up and down, but he's at least going to try to throw you back into the game. But the fact that after that touchdown, they ended up so far behind it. It was just like kind of impossible after that point.

42:21Robert Mays: Well, even the end of the half, again, there was four minutes left in the second quarter. It was 10 to 10 immediately after the Raiders score to tie it up at 10 that Jeremy McNichols run happens where he gets hit three yards past the line of scrimmage and somehow scores like a 60 yard touchdown that should be an unsuccessful run if that play stops where it should stop and I think that was um yeah that was like Jeremy Chin just like smokes him in the hole and then Landon Roberts Roberts comes over to help and they just like don't bring him down and Nichols or McNichols like ends up spinning out of it Jermaine Pratt like McNichols kind of squeezes out to the left side and like Jermaine Pratt is kind of in the area but I think he was one of those things where like he assumes the play is dead because it should be.

43:05Like that should be a tackle 100 % of the time and McNichols just takes off for a 60-yard touchdown. So like that was honestly more my frustration in this game than anything is that this is just a very sloppy football team. Yes. Which is that has frustrated me more than anything.

43:18Robert Mays: I think that's totally fair. And then on the next possession for the Raider, the next possession for Washington, Malcolm Coons gets a sack with like 14 seconds left in the half that should have ended the half, but he gets dinged for a 15-yard face mask penalty. and so they Washington kicks a field goal and so it was 10 to 10 with four minutes left in the second quarter is now 20 to 10 coming out of coming into the half and then you get the kick return touchdown and the game is suddenly over it's just like that was again one of those were like it's funny because like score wise this in the the Bengals game doesn't look that different especially with like the Raiders scoring you know a lot of their points kind of there at the end but this was a very competitive game for a lot of it until those oopsies whereas like Bengals Vikings was never a football game.

44:00Robert Mays: Washington had a couple of flubs in the first half that kept it close. Mariota fumbles and plus territory. The Raiders get the ball back and then that game is the 37 yard field goal. So it's almost the 20 to 10 thing is almost kind of a ball. Don't lie. This is actually an actual representation of the half, but that doesn't change the fact that it was 10 to 10 with four minutes left in the second quarter. I will say down to down, I think Washington was a significantly better team in this game. If you watch what their offense was doing to the Raiders, the Raiders linebacker room leaves a lot to be desired.

44:31Robert Mays: I think that we all know this. I'm trying to be generous here. The way that that thing was constructed, it's like they signed all those guys in July. You know, this was a whatever veterans are left on the street, that's how we're going to make up this room. Washington, even without Jaden Daniels, they're going to put those guys in hell for four quarters. I mean, all of the misdirection in the run game, all of the quarterback keep stuff that you have to worry about, all of the tight end action, whether it's slicing back across the formation, some of the arc stuff that they do, it is going to be a long day for your linebackers against this Washington team, no matter who that group is.

45:06Robert Mays: And the fact that the Raiders have the guys that they're trotting out, you felt that a lot over the course of this game. Yeah, they were really targeting like just the discipline of this defense. And I think this is a that linebacker core can struggle with that a lot. Obviously, you mentioned a lot of the this is a team that is going to do a lot of like split zone and they're going to marry that with some of the arc read stuff that they're doing where the tight end kind of leads out in front of uh the quarterback on some of this read stuff and they did that multiple times on the mario to fumble it's an arc read out of like a full house 25 yard gain on the fumble that he gets it's a great like it's a they schemed it up exactly the way they wanted it and that was one where too i think they are attacking max crosby's side and like max crosby is a phenomenal player every now and then he can get like cat chasing a laser but i think in against this offense that it's easy to get that way.

45:52Robert Mays: Exactly. And you should with this, the construction of this defense specifically, I would leave him unblocked all the time. That's what I would do. I'd be like, we're going to leave you unblocked. We're going to throw six different misdirection elements at you because we know that the 10 other guys on this defense, it's over. We're going to we are absolutely going to take advantage of whatever that looks like. And that is the problem for the Raiders right now. It is Max Crosby and absolutely no one else that you were consistently afraid of yeah and even in the passing game i thought they did a good job of like targeting the middle of the field like one of what maybe to me mariotta's like best over the day is like a little bit later in the first quarter it was first they got back to him at a first and 20 for some sort of penalty and mariotta splits the two hook defenders with a really nice digger out to uh debo samuel who drops it which is kind of unfortunate but like even he was a willing to target some of that and then i also thought the corners for the raiders i thought had a pretty rough day and like this was again not this is not necessarily a receiving core that is always going to punish you for that um but Jalen Lane did get Q Blue Kelly on the seven or eight man protection shot play that they took down the left side where it's just a little bit of an out and up and he just Jalen Lane just flies right by him and he ends up getting tackled at the one so it's technically not a touchdown for Lane but when when you're able to do what Washington was able to do in the run game and then block it up the way that they were able to block it up on a lot of their pass protection stuff.

47:13Again, Mariotta only has to make like two or three throws and not make that many mistakes. And that was really what he did.

47:18Robert Mays: I mean, they only threw the ball, I believe 23 times over the course of this game. And I don't think this was ever going to be like a pass happy approach with Mariotta in there. It's actually a very good way to approach a backup quarterback with his skillset is we're going to add him to the run game and just think, make things very difficult for you in that specific area. A couple of backoff offense alignment in the game for Washington didn't really notice that. You know, I think that's, you mentioned the Vikings going out and getting some guys and that bumping everybody down the depth chart. That was part of the argument for Washington's strength on offense coming into the year is they would be able to endure a couple offensive line injuries and be fine.

47:49Robert Mays: And they're without Sam Cosme in this game. They're without Brandon Coleman in this game. They bump Andrew Wiley into guard. Chris Paul, who's played a decent amount in the NFL, comes in at the other guard spot and they were able to consistently run the ball. And so their ability to handle some attrition up front because of how that room is built, I think you're already seeing some of the benefits of that. Yeah, definitely. Chris Paul actually had, there were a couple of decent moments of him against Adam Butler specifically, who I think is generally a pretty solid, especially run defending player.

48:14But he had a pretty tough day against, what is again, mostly a backup offensive line for Washington.

48:20Robert Mays: Speaking of offensive lines, going to the other side of the ball, that's really the only thing that we're talking about. I don't think Geno played great. I think that there were a couple of times where he invited pressure because he turned down some throws. Which that is unusual for him. That I will pin on him. I think when Gino's playing at his best, when foot hits the back of his drop bag, he's ripping it. And he's just not doing as much of that the past couple of weeks. He did week one against against some England. But I think the past couple of weeks, he's a little bit struggled with that.

48:47And that's like, I understand some of that because guys are not always open and they would be tough throws. But that on top of how poorly the offensive line is playing, that's how you end up in the spot. It's a cascading effect.

48:58Robert Mays: And I think that people are going to look at some of the plays he made out of structure and having to create a little bit and be like, oh, man, you know, Gino's under siege the whole game. And that was true. But I think a couple of those moments he's inviting some of that and having to wiggle himself out of it. So I think that Gino didn't play a perfect game. I think, you know, he's it has not been his best couple of weeks. But the offensive line definitely is the bigger culprit and why this team continues to struggle. Fifty six percent pressure rate for Washington in this game. Gino finishes seven of 14 for 74 yards on those pressure dropbacks and not pressured in this game.

49:29Robert Mays: 12 of 15 for 215 yards. So it really was, every time they dropped back to pass, Washington had some sort of answer or advantage when it came to the pass rush. And I think they had a really good plan. Like there were a decent amount of simulated pressures in this game. Bobby Wagner has an unblocked sack. He has an unblocked pressure. I think they did a really good job of just figuring out where they could pick on this front for the Raiders. And this is an issue because coming into the season, I think, and this is true, I think with a lot of offensive lines in the league what the Raiders did up front last year There were enough moments where I was like, okay, like I can understand moving forward this group Let's see how it goes and then you kind of rise and fall If you build it like that where it's like we have a certain floor with the offensive line You're gonna rise and fall because of what the infrastructure looks like offensively and what the coaching looks like And I think when you look at the Raiders offensive line this year You're getting the worst versions of every single one of these guys DJ Glaze as a third round pick last year it's like all right you saw some flashes like you can build on this he has not been good and he struggled on Sunday against Dorrance Armstrong specifically but it was a tough day overall for him Colton Miller especially in the run game like really getting very little done when they're asking him to pull even trying to get to the second level just like they dumps him he's supposed to trap Doran Payne on that play and Doran Payne just dumps him in the backfield and then you combine that with the fact that you come into the year, you drafted Jackson Powers Johnson.

50:56Robert Mays: Well, you didn't. Maybe that's part of the issue here. The previous regime drafted Jackson Powers Johnson in the second round. He misses last week of the concussion. He doesn't play this week because it's a short week and they wanted to maintain the continuity they had up front. And Alex Kappa is your right guard. And it's just a tough day at the office for Alex Kappa. And considering the last couple of years and how they've gone, I'm not sure why that's necessarily surprising. And so I think that this offensive line, I understood coming into it this season with this personnel and thinking, okay, there was enough last year to lead us to believe that if this group continues to grow and develop, we could be fine here.

51:31Robert Mays: And I just think that, again, you haven't had any positive growth or development from anybody among that group, which is comprised of a lot of young players. Exactly. It's comprised of a lot of young guys. And again, none of these guys are playing, I think, up to their level. Like even Colton Miller, who is supposed to be the this guy is fine and we know that he's a decent starter like he I think did not play a very good game we mentioned the play against pain but I think even in pass protection he had a couple of rough moments in this game like it was just he was not at his best I also think too this Washington defensive line is kind of built exactly to beat an interior like Las Vegas is and what I mean by that is like I think the Las Vegas interior guys move well not not Alex Kappa necessarily at this part in his career but I think Meredith moves well and I think Dylan Parham moves well, but they're a little bit undersized.

52:17And they are, if you fly off the ball and just put a hand in their chest, you're going to have, they're going to have a tough time. And like Javon Kinlaw gets off the ball. Well, Derron Payne gets off the ball. Well, this entire group plays with a lot of energy. They fly off the ball. And like, that is this interior. It's like, once you get a hand in their chest, they're going to fly three yards back. And that you saw a lot of that.

52:34Robert Mays: Yeah. If you are a tepid group, right? If you are not playing with a lot of authority coming off the ball on offense, you're going to feel it against this defensive line. It almost reminds me a little bit of what we said about the Chargers defense, where if you're below the line, they're really going to take advantage of you. If you're a below-the-line offensive line in terms of approach and mindset, you're going to feel it against this Washington defense. And Payne had a couple moments with that. Armstrong had a couple moments with that. And then Von Miller took advantage of DJ Glaze multiple times in one-on-one pass rush situations in this game.

53:05Robert Mays: And so it's a group that, again, no stars necessarily, but collectively you can feel them over the course of the game when they, when the talent level just kind of outmatches whoever they're playing against. And that was absolutely the case on Sunday. And I'm glad you mentioned really quickly the plan too. It seemed like anytime Gentry was not in the game for a passing down, they were just like throw Bobby Wagner at him because they just, the other backs just were not picking it up well. Yeah. Yeah. There was one where Wagner just absolutely dumps him in the backfield. Takes him out. And Bobby Wagner, credit to Bobby Wagner.

53:37Robert Mays: I mean, he obviously does not move sideline to sideline the way that he did earlier in his career, but he is still a very good, very dangerous blitzer. And this team is absolutely willing to deploy and unleash him that way. He is a bowling ball now. Yeah. Whereas like, again, the sideline to sideline stuff, it's a little tough sometimes. He's not carrying the over routes anymore, but he can give you what you need when you put him in the right position. If he's moving forward and hitting somebody, it looks about as good as it ever has. All right. It is time to get to our final segment on these hangover shows on Sunday nights.

54:10Robert Mays: We like to solicit some calls from you guys. If you're going through something, if you had a tough day watching your team, if your football fandom has been trying for you on a specific Sunday, we want to hear from you and we want to help you work through it a little bit. But we asked for some suggestions about what this should be called. And somebody in our Discord mentioned this as a name. And this is one that I had kind of thought of and was like, all right, that's it. If other people like this, this is what we're going with. Moving forward, we're calling this Monday Morning with a U. So this is our Monday morning segment for week three.

54:42Robert Mays: Beller, you got like three voicemails for us. Let's see if we can help these people maybe a little bit. Hey, Robert. This is Vijay. My team didn't break my heart. I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan. I have died numerous times and today just died a little bit more. The Cowboys are the worst organization I have ever seen in my life. And they bring nothing but misery to Cowboys fans, but joy to just about everyone. Also, Iberflus finally fixed Caleb. For some reason, I thought there would be more after that. I'm glad that that's where it ends. I don't really know what to say about the current state of the Dallas Cowboys.

55:26Robert Mays: It's frustrating to me because a lot of the elements of the Cowboys offense, and obviously you lose CeeDee Lamb at the beginning of that game, and you're going to be without CeeDee Lamb for an extended period of time now, and that kind of chips away at what I'm about to say. But when this group was fully healthy over the first few weeks, it was everything I had ever really wanted out of a Dallas Cowboys offense. Nothing crazy, but we're getting two legitimate receiving options on the perimeter. You have league average rates of like motion, play action. Every time I complained about the lack of how static the Dallas offense felt for the first three weeks, I don't think Brian Schottenheimer is Kyle Shanahan, but I think they're doing what is necessary to get to a place where you are dangerous to deal with, with Dak Prescott as your quarterback.

56:12Robert Mays: And so I was really enjoying it. I was really enjoying watching the offense. And then at the same time that is happening, the defense completely collapses. And I think some of the plan on offense, going out and getting Clayton Adams, trying to just be a little bit more dynamic on that side of the ball, fully supported. And it's working out. They have, do you know who has the best rushing success rate in the league right now? It's the Dallas Cowboys. And I think, again, this is exactly what I wanted the Cowboys offense to feel like this year. And then on defense, when you're trying to figure out a coordinator, you go out and get a guy who wants to play a ton of zone when you have constructed your entire DB room over the last four or five years to be this sticky man coverage team.

56:53Robert Mays: And then in order to, at the same time, while you're doing that, you trade away one of the best defensive players in the league. And so on multiple different fronts, you're just sabotaging whatever this was supposed to be on that side of the ball. And this is what you're left with as the Dallas Cowboys. like legitimately if they had Micah Parsons and someone who was calling defensive plays that at least made more sense for the secondary they would still have issues it's not a very good secondary right talented group but it is constructed in a way that is not set up to play this way exactly and like I had this issue with Iberflus especially back in Indianapolis where like if his defensive personnel is not exactly what he wants he kind of falls back into this mode of like we're just going to put a lid on anything we're not going to do anything we're going to play a lot of cover two and we're going to hope it doesn't go wrong.

57:38Except it's not working, but it didn't work that well in Indianapolis and it's definitely not working now when you don't have enough pass

57:44Robert Mays: rushers to make it work like that. The defensive plan, I think, just never really made sense and I think you're seeing some of the limitations of that. I don't need to go on another Jerry rant, but I will just acknowledge something he said yesterday that's absolutely hilarious. Did you see that he said that if there was a special difference-making player that was available, they would consider trading away the Packers picks to go get that player? Did you see him say that yesterday? You're making this up. There's no way. I swear to God, I swear to God, I swear to God said that. It's just, I just don't understand like how as a Cowboys fan, you could look at anything they're doing and have any sort of faith in this organization, like period.

58:20Robert Mays: That is like completely incoherent thinking. It's all been incoherent thinking lately. And even with, and we were talking about this on Saturday and we're, me and you and Dave were hanging out watching college football and just previously and previous eras of the Cowboys, when Jerry was actually the one like pulling the strings and making a lot of the personnel decisions. It was haphazard. It was scattershot. It was not rooted in any sort of logic most of the time, but at least there was a level of ambition to it, right? Like they were trying something. He was making moves. He was trying to go get talent.

58:51Robert Mays: They were trying to win. And even if you didn't, even if you could argue with the effectiveness of it, I think you at least had to appreciate the fact that he was trying to get stuff done. Now it's all of the incompetence and incoherence with none of the ambition. And that's why to me, it's just like, screw this. Like I like what I there's no part of me that has any sort of respect for how they're approaching this. The old part of it, the only old method, at least it was like, all right, I don't agree with this, but at least I can appreciate it here. There's absolutely none of this. It used to be a spectacle because it was aggressive.

59:27And again, they were trying stuff. And again, a lot of it was bad, but when it worked out, it was incredibly cool. And they did some spectacle because they don't do any of the things right and they're not taking any of the risks that they were supposed to and they still kind of present themselves as this like Hollywood-esque team but they don't do any of the stuff that would like actually support being that kind of team and

59:47Robert Mays: now we have to watch this team that can't stop anybody try to keep up with opposing offenses without CeeDee Lamb for the next like month so I really wish I had some sort of solace to offer you as a Cowboys fan the offense should still be fun to watch when CeeDee Lamb gets back that's pretty much all I can give you at this point for about 31 other fan bases. I think I could twist myself into a pretzel. You're the wrong person to ask when it comes to like talking you into the Cowboys right now. All right, what's our next one? This is Josh. I'm a Broncos fan living in Kansas, which has made the last eight years, a special type of insufferable.

1:00:23It was this game against the chargers where the rug came fully out from underneath me. I try so hard to not fall for it, and I let myself get gaslit by the local media and by Sean Payton into thinking that I had hope at the quarterback position again. It wasn't until Justin Herbert was melting my face with this performance against a defense that is every bit as good as I thought it would be, really. Contrasted against Bo Nix in this game trying to put on his big boy pants, that I just, I'm just numb. I'm just numb and I'm resigned to a life of being the team that everybody always says is a QB away from serious contention.

1:01:20And that's my lot in life now. And it is what it is, I guess.

1:01:26Robert Mays: I completely understand where he's coming from, because if you are a fan of the Broncos, and if you're trying to talk yourself into Bo Nix, there are two guys on the other side of the ball that would be the worst possible people to play against. One is Josh Allen, which they had to do in the playoffs last year. So you got like that funhouse mirror effect of this is our quarterback, this is their quarterback. And that game was immediately over. Yes. And then the other one is Justin Herbert. because the entire argument for Bo Nix is, you know, he's maybe a little bit limited in terms of the physical talent that he's bringing to the position, but he could be accurate.

1:01:59Robert Mays: He can do a little bit off schedule, but like, yes, like there are limitations to who Bo Nix is. He has to be put in positions to succeed, but we trust Sean Payton to put him in those positions to succeed. That's what the last half of the 2024 season felt like. When you watch a quarterback like Justin Herbert, who makes that play to Keenan Allen at the end of the game, where it's like he does not need to be put in a position to succeed. There are few guys where it would be more of a stark contrast and harder to stomach than the guy that they had to watch Sunday. So I deeply empathize with where he's at right now.

1:02:33It's real easy to talk yourself into a quarterback until you remember what the top five or six guys look like. And you're like, man, those guys, especially physically, are just different, like Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, Justin Herbert. just like Bo Nix could end up a perfectly fine quarterback. Physically, he'll just never be able to do the stuff that Justin can Herbert do. And it's like, it is a stark reminder of that. You know what I also think is fascinating about this game? Justin Herbert barely completed half of his passes. He had 6.4 yards per attempt. He had one touchdown, one pick. He was sacked five times.

1:03:05Everyone I've heard talk about this game was like, he was unbelievable. He was. Like that's how good he was. The stat line can be that. and for once we all finally agree that he actually played like a million times better than what the

1:03:18Robert Mays: stats look like here's what i will say and i do think that there is some solace to be offered here for somebody that is a fan of the broncos even if bo nicks is never going to be that guy where we're talking about top five elite sort of quarterbacks when you're comparing to a guy like justin herbert we still have two more very cheap years of bo nicks the defense is going to be good they are going to be a problem there and we didn't i should have mentioned this on the pre on the recap show last night because it really did strike me in the moment. But there were multiple plays yesterday where Riley Moss is like looking at Patrick Sertan.

1:03:47Robert Mays: He's like, what am I supposed to do? Right, like what am I supposed to do in this situation? That is not going to happen every single week. So you played a buzzsaw quarterback yesterday. You played a buzzsaw offense the week before. I do think that there will be much better days ahead for the Broncos defense specifically. That is going to come. And I do think that there will be better days ahead for Bo Nix. We've already seen them, right? Like even if there are going to be some limitations and Bo Nix is already 25, but 25 isn't fully formed as a quarterback. This is somebody who has started 20 games, not even over the course of his NFL career.

1:04:20Robert Mays: It's still very early in Bo Nix's time, even if he is a little bit older. And so I think take a breath. The defense is going to be very good. Defense is going to keep you in games. I do think that Sean Payton still has it, even if it's been a little bit rockier to start this season than it looked for most of last year. So this is one of those moments where it's like, it's only three weeks. You're still not out of it in the AFC. That second tier of like wildcard AFC teams still very much in play. And so we're only three weeks into the season and it's a long, long way to go before you start freaking out when you have a roster as talented as the Broncos do.

1:04:55Robert Mays: Get to the last one, Barrett. What's up, Robert? This is a dejected Bengals fan calling in, man. It's about time. I've been saying it honestly, since the Super Bowl run. Zach Taylor is not an NFL head coach. And this performance on Sunday just proves it. He's got to go. There's no way with what you think is on this offensive line, it's as bad as what is on the field. There are other coaches who are supposed to be offensive gurus who do more with less. If you look at the Rams' offensive line, Even Mike McDaniels with the Dolphins offensive line. It's always a question, oh, they got to do more on the offensive line.

1:05:40But they still managed to have a functional pass game and a run game. Zach Taylor, he cannot put together an offense. And I understand, hey, Joe Burrow wants to run these certain things, or, you know, this is what he wants. He wants five out in the route so he can just sit back and diagnose. hey, coach is coach. Hey, we're going to run these concepts and it's going to make your life easier and you won't get hit as much. But guess what? Even when he does those things,

1:06:10Robert Mays: this offense is not functional. He's got to go. I think it's a really good argument. I think it's actually like there's a lot of sobriety in that call considering what the Bengals looked like yesterday. I have been a defender of Zach Taylor at times because I do think that the way the Bengals organization operates, puts him in a tough spot just overall, like what the personalities he has to manage, all of that, like the personal elements of being an NFL head coach. I think he does those very well. And I think for the most part, there have been stretches for the last three or four years where I think some of the offensive design elements of what the Bengals have done have been underrated.

1:06:48Robert Mays: And I go back to a couple of specific moments. I think it was a 22 season where they really tapped into like a specific kind of gun run game that was very efficient. They understood how it tied into the way they wanted to play their passing game in the gun. And it was like, oh, that's a really nice like trial and error approach to offense, figuring out who you need to be and making it work in 23. And I think this is the stretch that to me has earned a lot of equity for Zach Taylor as we like make arguments for what kind of coach he is. When Jake Browning had to play in 2023, they changed the construction of the offense to fit what Jake Browning needed to do for them to be successful.

1:07:24Robert Mays: And so I think even if I've been a defender of Zach Taylor in some areas, if this keeps going at this rate, now you're having a lot of evidence on the other side of it. Where while the first Jake Browning experience, I think was some evidence that even without Joe Burrow, this staff could create a functional offense. If it's going to look like it looked on Sunday for the rest of this season, and you truly might bottom out on that side of the ball, then I think what he's saying starts to carry a lot more weight. And so I do think that is the scenario where Zach Taylor could be in a little bit of trouble.

1:07:57Yeah, I think like I pretty much agree with almost everything that he was saying. Like I understand that Joe Burrow is a fantastic quarterback and that leaning into a lot of what he does well and what he wants makes sense. At the same time, I've been calling for like the entirety of Joe Burrow's career. Like you need to do some more of the run a normal offense stuff. And I think some of that maybe a different coach would be able to draw that out of Joe Burrow. And again, Zach Taylor has done some really interesting stuff with the offense, but that is still a part of it that I really wanted. You mentioned the Jake Browning thing.

1:08:27We have evidence that they can do this with him. And like the offensive line really now is not worse than it was at that time, I don't think. And so like they should be able to piece something together here. So the fact that they haven't done that and then also remove anything about like Bengals specific. If you have a head coach who has not made the playoffs two years in a row, and then even with losing the star quarterback, bottoms out and let's say they win six games this year. That guy's getting fired like most of the time, almost regardless of who it is. And so whatever we want to say about the Bengals specifically, Zach Taylor specifically, like that would just be a resume that like it probably gets you fired.

1:09:02Robert Mays: I think the argument for keeping Zach Taylor outside of, again, some of the things that you have to deal with as the Bengals head coach is that for the most part, I do think the offensive structure thinks of a little bit underrated given the constraints that they have to work with. Those constraints are now gone because Joe Burrow is not there. And so if you can't build a functional offense with those two receivers and an offensive line that you've invested heavily into, then I think the conversation around Zach Taylor changes and a lot of what that person just said is completely valid. And you start starting to see over the last couple of years, like the choices that they're making from a staffing perspective is a lot of like, well, this was the problem.

1:09:35Robert Mays: So they move on from Lou, they go get Al Golden. And so the defense was the problem and they fire the offensive line coach, Frank Pollock last year. They get Scott Peters, who is the Patriots offensive line coach. Well, the offensive line coach was the problem. That's why we're struggling in the run game. That's why the offensive line hasn't played well. Well, now the offensive line coach is new and the offensive line continues to struggle. And so if that kind of stuff, when you're moving all those pieces around and nothing really changes, that's another reason that we start to reframe the conversation a bit.

1:10:01Robert Mays: And so I hear you Bengals fans about how frustrated you are right now. And I think that that course is only going to get louder if we have more performances like the way the one that we saw on Sunday. All right. That is all we've got for the week three hangovers. Sincerely appreciate all of you guys tuning in tomorrow on the athletic football show feed, building the beast with Dane Brugler and Dave Hellman is back. If you're looking for a weekly draft shows, we're getting deeper into the college football season. Highly encourage you guys to check that out. If you're watching this on YouTube, please like, and subscribe to the channel.

1:10:36Robert Mays: If you did not check out the new film series that Derek is kicking off. We had our first episode come out on Saturday, breaking down a sequence of plays from the Lions offense against the Bears. We've got a lot of new toys in this studio, access to highlights and NFL footage that we have never had before. And so the YouTube channel is just going to look and feel a lot different this year than it has in years past. And so I encourage you guys to go check that stuff out, like, and subscribe if that That is where you are watching. If you're listening, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you happen to listen.

1:11:08Robert Mays: We would sincerely appreciate that. For now, that is all we've got. Appreciate you all listening. We'll talk to you very soon.