Week 4 Recap: Chiefs and 49ers Remain unbeated, Jaguars win ugly, CeeDee Lamb goes off

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1:24Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays. Week four is in the books. A lot of great stuff to dig into today. We're going to talk about Panthers-Lions tomorrow on The Hangover. We touched on it a little bit at the top, but a really impressive performance from Bryce Young and Teterowell McMillan. We kick things off with the Chiefs beating the Raiders in an exciting one. CeeDee Lamb, the Jags, and the Patriots, notably Drake May, grabbing our attention. Some WTF stuff from the Broncos offense, everything about Rams, Eagles, and I mean, just some bizarre historic stats in Bears-Jets.

2:01Robert Mays: And then we got a little bit romantic about Zay Flowers with me, Dave, and Derek. Let's get to it right now.

2:12Robert Mays: another awesome day of nfl football we had a fantastic witching hour in the noon window a lot of interesting results in the afternoon window and then a sunday night game that was exciting on a bunch of different levels not only did it come down to the final drive for the lions but what a game from bryce young and tedrow mcmillan my god i couldn't believe that game came down to

2:33Dave Helman: the end the way it did like it seemed like the the Panthers had kind of run away with it and that at some point it like it was around when there were like seven and a half minutes left in the fourth quarter it was like Panthers got a two score lead feels like they'll be able to run the clock out the way that they've been playing offense today like we can kind of move on I can check out and then like every time I look back I'm like wait the Lions might still actually go

2:53Derrik Klassen: and win the game assuming a basic degree of competency the NFL really is starting to remind remind me of the NBA where a run's coming like unless unless one team just looks completely inept or there's a quarterback injury if you're within like if you're within 17 you're gonna have a shot to make it interesting late in the game most of the time we saw that we're not another game uh Seattle LA is the same thing where you look up and you're like holy shit this was lopsided like 45 minutes ago and so really fun way to cap it off though like a thousand yards of total offense.

3:28Robert Mays: So good time to bring up the Chargers and the Seahawks. We're going to talk about that game on the hangover tomorrow. We're going to dig into Panthers Lions on the hangover tomorrow. It's gonna be the first thing we talk about for people who are new watching these. We don't often hit the Sunday night game in real time. We're prepping the rest of the show during the Sunday night game. And so unless it's like a marquee matchup between two bulletproof playoff teams, for the most part, we save the Sunday night game to start the hangover, which is the show we do Monday into Tuesday. So that's what we're going to do this week.

3:56Robert Mays: Talk all about what the Panthers did, what Bryce Young did, what Tedaroa McMillan did. We'll be digging into that. We'll be digging into Seahawks and Chargers, like I just said. And the third game will be the Giants and the Cardinals. So those will be the three hangover games tomorrow.

4:10Derrik Klassen: It bears repeating before we move on though. Tedaroa McMillan.

4:14Robert Mays: Holy crap. Bryce Young as well. I went into the Sunday night game. I was at 15 in my high school fantasy league. That is more important to me than I like to admit at this stage in my life. I was like, oh, I may hang on to this. I got a cheap Brock Bowers touchdown late. They got those two Kenneth Walker touchdowns in about six seconds. I was like, man, what an unlikely win. Lucky me. And then I hung on to that lead for about 18 minutes of real time because of what Ted Rowe McMillan did tonight. So it's been a fun start to the season for Bryce Young and Ted Rowe McMillan. The flashes from Bryce Young have been incredibly exciting.

4:46Robert Mays: And so very excited to dig into that game in earnest and in full tomorrow. But we are going to start this show with another big win for today, and that is the Kansas City Chiefs knocking off the Las Vegas Raiders 30 to 27. For offensively, this was a sleepy game for a good chunk of the game. The score was in the teens as we got deep into the third quarter, into the fourth quarter. And then we had an explosion late in this game. Again, another one where Raiders were down two scorers, felt like it was over. They somehow dragged themselves back. Derek, you were the only one that wasn't in the room as that game was happening.

5:22Robert Mays: I'm curious just your initial thoughts on the Chiefs managing to pull this one out against the Raiders.

5:27Dave Helman: Well, it's funny. You say it was sleepy, and I think at one point the broadcast right before the big Kenneth Walker run, the broadcast was like, oh, the Chiefs have only had like 18 yards in this quarter, blah, blah, blah. And he instantly rips off like a 70 yarder because Trey Smith absolutely moves the defensive alignment ahead of him. Jalen Moore does a really good job of kicking out the defensive end there. The whole right side. just just get movement on that play everybody and then the whole point of why you get a guy like kenneth walker is if you can get him to that second level the safety coming down is not going to be at the angle that he wants to be and jeremy chin was not at the angle that he wanted to be to go and catch kenneth walker and so i do think overall and this will probably i think continue to be true of the chiefs offense but i do think that they should be good enough at it maybe without uh taekwon thornton maybe this won't be true they feel like a touchdown to check down style of offense I think the way that their run game operates it is very explosive and I think today they were very much like we hit three or four like huge chunk plays down the field and other than that they were living in the flats it was boots it was Mahomes getting to check downs making some plays that way it was a very like feast or famine style of play and I do think if Mahomes can hit enough of those I do think that that can work we can maybe talk about what that actually looks like without Taekwon Thornton Rashi Rice was obviously banged up in this game and so it gives me a little little bit of pause, but when they've been good at it, they've been very good at that this year.

6:45Robert Mays: I totally agree about how the game felt. I mean, their explosives is what carried them in this game. And so I think there's a few different things to hit there. One, it was the difference in the game, them being explosive versus the Raiders only having really one explosive play. I mean, the 28 yard gente screen at one point, but other than that, it was really just the kind of leak play to Ian Thomas. It was on the same side. So it was almost more like a delay down the sideline to Ian Thomas, but that was really the only one. And then the Chiefs had really four of them, right? They had the one to Worthy, they had the two to Thornton, they had a 76-yard run for Kenneth Walker.

7:20Robert Mays: So that really was the difference in this game, is that the Chiefs were able to be so explosives. That's the observation about this game. The second thought is, how f***ing weird is it that that's what the Chiefs are? Like, think about how we talked about the Chiefs for the last two years. The idea that they're a feast or famine offense that had to survive on explosives today that's an uncomfortable place for me to live with the Kansas City Chiefs but that is what happened

7:44Derrik Klassen: okay it's funny you say that because there's a there's a half dozen preseason conversations that live in my brain rent-free and one of them is the long conversation we had in July or August about is Kenneth Walker being explosive as hell good enough to fix everything about the Chiefs offense and through four weeks the answer is yes and ironically it's terrible because Taequann Thornton I don't need to see a whole lot else to know that he's going to be missing for a while I mean it's it's devastating that was a tough moment I mean did you guys I don't know if you

8:18Robert Mays: guys saw the clip Derek did you see the clip I think it was Caliendo came over to him and was trying to get him up and then Taequann Thornton pointed to his foot Caliendo looks at his foot and then immediately looks away well I think that was the reaction all of us had he didn't like

8:31Dave Helman: know like you can see him start to pop up and like celebrate and then after a while it's like oh, that's not that's not going to go how it's going to go, which sucks because he was. I mean, other than Ken Walker and Patrick Mahomes, maybe he was like their best player in this game.

8:44Robert Mays: I legitimately I've been joking about it. No, Dave has heard me say this like three or four times in the first month of the season that Taequann Thornton is the most important receiver on the Chiefs. And I after today, I think you would feel the difference in losing him. I don't know if you want to live this way every game where it's three or four explosives and Kenneth Walker is what's carrying you. But in games where you have to live like that, this offense is going to feel significantly different without Taequann Thornton. Even going back to last year, I felt like he gave them a dimension that they really didn't have.

9:13Robert Mays: Because for as much as Xavier Worthy was supposed to be that sort of player, he hasn't been that sort of player. He had the contested catch on the field today, but that doesn't really happen. And Thornton's the guy that's been giving them that element. And so losing him, I actually do think is a really big deal.

9:29Derrik Klassen: It's a huge deal. And I mean, if I'm a Chiefs fan, I'm clinging to the hope that Xavier Worthy boxed Eric Stokes out for a contested catch 40 yards down the field in this game and looked really impressive doing so. And I'm guessing they're going to need a lot more of that. Well, I don't know what the deal is with Rasheed Rice's hamstring, but soft tissue injuries for receivers are always scary. And so it sucks for them. And maybe you're right that this isn't a way to live consistently, but it sucks for them that Kenneth Walker has managed to open so many things up for what we would all agree is a pretty lackluster receiver group.

10:04Derrik Klassen: And now they're, I feel like they're going to be playing with a hand tied behind their back, either that, or they have the early buy, by the way, they're off next week. And so I don't know, receiver tryouts, Tyree kill. What are you doing? Tyree kill feels like, I mean, that, That was a joke for like three weeks. And now I'm like, well, you got to at least see what he looks like running around in shorts during the bye week. I mean, they have to do something like whether it's Tyree kill or you have the buy.

10:31Dave Helman: So like if you want to trade for someone like you have a week to like actually get them into the offense before it becomes like, is this guy actually going to work in our team? Like, I actually do think that they're in a decent position if they want to do something.

10:43Robert Mays: I don't have the season long stats from last year. I'd be curious on a per game basis if you ever match this total. Patrick Mahomes averaged 11.3 air yards per attempt tonight. That just wasn't how the Chiefs offense was operating over the last couple of years. Obviously, their inefficiency on deep throws was a point of conversation, but they weren't even attempting that many. He had six passes today that were 20 plus yards in the air. And so this version of the offense is just kind of strange. And when you think about the moment where this game changes, it's the third and five where he hits Thornton against cover zero.

11:11Robert Mays: Like him buying that time and finding Thornton down the field is where this game changes. If you look at it in that moment before that pass gets thrown, the Raiders had, I can't remember the exact number on it, but they're like win expectancy in that moment from next gen was extremely high. Like as soon as it got to that third and five, it felt like the Raiders were probably going to win that game. And then Mahomes completes that crazy throw to Thornton buying that time to his left. And again, just being in a place where the chief's offense lives and feasts on those explosive plays. And that's where they survive for most of the game is just kind of a disorienting place to be.

11:47Derrik Klassen: two stats i wanted to share coming out of this game which to that point i mean mahomes had a big day despite completing 15 balls 15 for 225 it's the second such a weird game second time he's won won a game in which he only completed 15 passes this year and this is the first year he's managed to do that in five years not since 2021 were they able like to get that much out of so few completions for Patrick Mahomes. The other fun thing coming out of this, it shouldn't be surprising given what he's done. Per True Media, Kenneth Walker's, he finished with 177 today. Per True Media, through the first four weeks of a season, only 2003 Jamal Lewis and 2010 Arian Foster have rushed for Mooryard through the first four weeks of a season like he passed uh demarco murray ran for 1800 in 2014 he passed him up on um today just barely but i mean he's he's on a complete tear and they're gonna have to do something at receiver if i had to guess but the question over the summer of like is this enough to actually make the chiefs feel different yep sure is what are your thoughts about the raiders after this

12:57Robert Mays: game derek because if they if the raiders don't fumble the kickoff at 23 19 they have three minutes left down by four to potentially go down and win this game. Instead, the Chiefs get the ball back. They score immediately. Now it's a two score game with three ish minutes. Obviously, the Raiders cut it close. But when you're down 11 with three minutes left or yeah, we're not 11 with three minutes left. It's going to be a tall order. Even if you can score that first touchdown, we saw that. So as you think about just the Raiders ability to stay in this game, what you saw from them on both sides of the ball, where do you sit with the Raiders four weeks into the season, even with them losing this game?

13:31Dave Helman: I mean, pretty much where we came in to them to this game where it was like, I think they're an exciting team. I think their ceiling is going to be limited just by the fact that I think in certain talent wise, like offensive line, I think some of the secondary is still up and down, even if those guys are really exciting. There's just spots that I think you can pick on. And I've talked about like how I came into the season with the Packers, like those two positions, when those are your shaky spots, you're going to give up some big plays. And I think obviously that's what happened on both sides in this game.

13:56Dave Helman: But I do think that they're team that's really well coached on both sides of the ball like some of the pressures that they were trying to bring to get to my homes I thought the way that they were getting pressure off the edge specifically which we talked about coming into this matchup they were really able to do like the quay walker where they fired him inside the red zone inside the goal line and like they were able to go and sack my homes out to his left I thought was really nice and then offensively Kirk Cousins is a really good quarterback if you don't hit him like like I like I know that that sounds like it's the NFL you're gonna get hit all the time and obviously there's limitations to that But when he does have like time to work or he gets the ball out or they just block it up really well on that play, like he really is seeing it really well.

14:34Dave Helman: He's very accurate. And the offense is designed in such a way that a quarterback like that is going to be able to take advantage. And so they're going to lack some explosiveness down the field because they don't have a receiver who can automatically cash in that way, like a C.D. Lamb, George Pickens or whatever. And Kirk Cousins doesn't really have the arm to do that. But I do think that, again, like I said, coming into the week, they're going to test your all of your rules and make you play good sound football. And I think that we saw that like they put a very good Chiefs team on the ropes. And I do think that they can do that to a lot of other good teams.

15:04Robert Mays: It's kind of funny that we talked about this going into last year where the Raiders were this kind of oddity in the way that they were built. They have a first round top 10 running back. They have I mean, calling him a tight end is almost a misnomer at this point, but their best offensive weapon pass catcher is obviously a tight end. Now you have Michael Mayer as a big part of what their offense looks like. And we thought, oh, there'll be a high floor team. They'll be kind of strange. You know, they'll stick around. They'll give people problems. And then that obviously didn't happen. They were a disaster from day one.

15:36Robert Mays: It took a year, but the Raiders are who we thought they were going to be last year. They're this weird team where you're built around tight ends and a running back in this game collectively. OK, Kirk Cousins ended up throwing 52 passes in this game. He threw, excuse me, he threw 29 of those 52 passes to the tight ends and the running back. Brock Bowers ended this game with 11 targets. Michael Mayer had 10 and Ashton Jensie had eight. It's a weird team. It's a weird team in the way they thought. We thought they were going to be a weird team this year, but there's just so much to like about everything that they're doing on both sides of the ball, even if a part of that weirdness is them boxing themselves in and limiting them in a way that other teams with more explosive pass catchers aren't limited.

16:22Derrik Klassen: It does kind of sound like you're telling me that when in doubt, hire like the young, assertive play caller who's about his business, and you can make all this stuff look a hell of a lot better because Clint Kubiak's been so impressive.

16:36Robert Mays: And Rob Leonard's been just as impressive. I think that when you get, I compared them to the Jags, Jags a couple of weeks ago. And I said, their best case scenario is probably being like a diet version of the Jags and from last year. And I think that's kind of where I sit with it. I think they're probably well coached enough to give people problems all year to stay in a lot of these games. I just worry about what the ceiling looks like and ultimately what the firepower looks like because of the explosiveness at receiver and the explosiveness of the quarterback. Other than that, I think that there is a lot to like about this team just sticking around, sticking around, sticking around and Raiders fans.

17:14Robert Mays: Taking a lot of satisfaction and watching them every single week. I just think that what they've continued to show, even after losing this game, there's just so much to like about what they're bringing to the table game in and game out. And what a fun, satisfying place to be as a Raider fan compared to what last year felt like.

17:31Dave Helman: And if you're looking forward to the future, like sometimes there might be teams like this, right, where, OK, you're this upstart kind of fun team and you lack this explosiveness this in the passing game and it's like well are we going to run out of road at some point well at some point fernando mendoza is going to play and i don't know if that means this year or later but like and i again i'm not even calling for him to play because i do think kirk is playing very very well but if you're thinking ahead for the future and you're trying to be excited about 2027 and you're like man we got to solve receiver and quarterback well they don't have to solve quarterback you know who knows how good he'll be but they have an answer for like trying to get

18:02Derrik Klassen: more explosive that way i'm not calling for fernando right now either even though that was my whole mission heading into the season. Kirk has played well. It's worth mentioning like Kirk after a overall solid game, like glitched out on that final play. Yeah, he did. He did good shot. The whole offense did. I mean, how they handled that final drive. He did glitch out. He, I mean, he, he just went through like a system reboot at the line and then realized, like he clicked back on after he started scrambling and was like, wait, I was drafted in 2012. I got to get rid of this ball, which, you know, kind of a down note to finish it on, because it's at least conceivable they could have gotten into position for a game tying field goal attempt, which I would have liked to see based on how entertaining that game was.

18:46Derrik Klassen: That's just still it's a it's tough sledding.

18:48Robert Mays: I mean, like when you know timeouts and everything else, I feel like sometimes we should give quarterbacks specifically a little bit more grace when it comes to the decision making in those moments where the game is kind of spiraling away from you when you have no ability to stop the clock. But yes, I would say glitched out is the proper way to describe what was happening in that moment. Is it bad that I'm already playing like which receiver can the Raiders afford next offseason? Is it bad that I'm already putting trying to put George Pickens on the Raiders and just seeing what happens? I was going to ask one

19:13Dave Helman: of the options. George Pickens is going to be a free agent next year because the other one.

19:18Derrik Klassen: George Pickens feels like a Raider.

19:21Dave Helman: Well and what did we say about Fernando Mendoza? Get him someone who will catch the back shoulder. I'm pretty sure George Pickens will catch a back shoulder too.

19:28Robert Mays: The Fernando point is such a good one though because if you're a team like the Raiders and I mean, where the Browns are at right now, if you win enough games and you put yourself out of the quarterback conversation and you're like, all right, well, now we do. We do like a middle of the road thing with Deshaun Watson and have to piece it together. The Raiders aren't in that position. The Raiders have the number one pick in this draft that will be playing for them eventually. And so that's not enough solace to explain away or not care about the fact that you lost this game today. But as somebody who doesn't have to be moment by moment, emotionally invested in the Las Vegas Raiders, I think that is the perspective I'm taking here.

20:00Derrik Klassen: Not to go too in the weeds. I apologize. But we always talk about how receivers of that caliber rarely even make it to free agency. Pickens was tagged and to Alec Pierce. They were able to reach a deal in Indianapolis. Maybe the more realistic scenario here is the draft. And Indiana has a hell of a wide receiver who played with Fernando Mendoza. But if the Raiders have like the 28th pick in the draft, they're going to be able to get that guy. Maybe you can maneuver. You know, we're not going after, I would have said Jeremiah Smith, but that's definitely not on the table. Like the Raiders are way too good for Jeremiah Smith, but these are building the beast conversations.

20:34Derrik Klassen: All right, before we move on,

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23:20Gentlemen,

23:22Robert Mays: now you have my attention. The Dallas Cowboys knock off the Texans 34-30, but the guy that really stuck out in this game, C.D. Lamb, 21 targets, 17 catches, 189 yards, and one touchdown, that being the game winner. CeeDee Lamb and the Dallas Cowboys offense against the Texans. You officially have our attention.

23:48Dave Helman: That's where that's where I want to start. You remember last year, Joe Flacco and Jamar Chase played that game where he threw to him like 20 some odd times in prime time. And it was just like no matter what they wanted, Joe Flacco was going to find Jamar Chase. That's against the Steelers defense. That was good. But like you could kind of pick on in certain ways. This is the Texans man. Like, I still think that this defense can be really good, even despite how today went. And for for Dak and for CD to play the way that they did, especially in the second half of this game, the offense didn't do a whole lot in the first half.

24:20Dave Helman: It really wasn't until the second half that they really exploded.

24:24Derrik Klassen: The Texans were giving Dak fits in the early going of this game.

24:28Robert Mays: They were down 17 six at halftime. The Cowboys were they scored six points in the first half. Yeah. Was it 17 six or 16 six? either way 16 16 6 I'm sorry staring at it right here in front of me and it's I'm 17 6 it's been

24:41Derrik Klassen: a long day we had always we had a London game but I mean yeah and especially like with the way we can get into that but I thought D 'Amico Ryan's ran circles around Brian Schottenheimer at the end of the first half in this game which is why you were down two possessions in the first place but yeah like Dak missed a wide Dak actually missed CD on what I think was a sluggo early on in this game just because the Texans were throwing so much at him and to see them fight through that. Yeah. Like it looked, it looked really cool down the stretch and CD had one of the best receiver games of this decade.

25:14Derrik Klassen: First receiver in the second receiver in the 2020s to catch 17 plus passes in a game. Keenan Allen did it in 2023. And then Antonio Brown did 17 for two 84 as a Steeler in 2015. But I mean, like as as fun as the Cowboys made it look, I really feel like the Texans made him earn it, which made it so much more satisfying to just to watch as a fan of

25:36Robert Mays: football. It was a good combination of great players making great plays. But also, I really liked a lot of the stuff design wise that Dallas was doing, especially in the second half. The great players making great plays is George Pickens going up and getting that play action deep shot off his back shoulder. I mean, again, not a featured player in terms of targets in this game, but the verticality he gives the offense is so necessary. The offense just feels so much different when they're willing to push the ball down the field, when he's creating some of that vertical stretch. And there was the one play, I can't remember when it happened in the game, it's in my notes somewhere, where CeeDee just gets totally dropped on a crosser, where I think it was Stingley was trying to pass him off.

26:18Robert Mays: And there's all that space, in part because Pickens is yanking out Lasseter to that side. And then Lasseter gets stung for two penalties against Pickens. And then so even if Pickens wasn't a featured player in terms of how often he was getting the ball thrown to him consistently, that was early. It was 1330 or so in the third quarter. They're running Pickens on a vertical. Seedy's running the crosser. And Stingley's trying to pass him off. And that gets to the design element of this. You look at some of the stuff Dallas was doing with bunches, stacks. They were doing a lot of things out of two by two where they were in stacks and it was creating miscommunication issues.

26:52Robert Mays: There was another play where CD is the number one receiver to the left side. Ferguson runs the vertical. Stingley takes Ferguson. CD is wide open on the quick out and he gets that. And then the sluggo is a design play where we feel like they've been sitting on a lot of stuff underneath. You have Pickens faking the slant, taking it vertical. Dak puts it on him and that's a huge play in the game. And so, again, I think it's a combination of those receivers are really good. But I think Dallas with design in the second half created a lot of those completions against a really good defense.

27:24Dave Helman: They just picked on all the right stuff. Like you mentioned the crosser that Stingley ends up dropping. There was a play earlier in the game where the Texans are in like a mug look and it's they have trips to the right side and they're running like the two fin routes from the inside. And then number three is running that vertical. And just the way that it gets passed off, like Petrie thinks he's supposed to squeeze with number two. He should probably go help one. Stingley drops it off and there's nobody there's nobody covering him. I also thought the Texans do still play a lot of quarters. I thought the Cowboys did a good job of abusing how much underneath space there is in quarters and like getting like on the fourth and four where they just run two of those shallows over into that and just abuse that space.

28:00Dave Helman: I thought was impressive. They hit a sale route where you get or a sale concept where they had the safety driving down on the sale. They hit the post over the top, like just so many good beaters in the second half.

28:12Robert Mays: Texans played 50 percent quarters in this game per next gen. I was glad you mentioned that. deck 17 of 23 for 165 on those plays. You know, they're going to play a lot of it. You better have those beaters ready. And again, I thought that that it's just, it's not crazy stuff. Like Dallas isn't going to run the sort of offense where you're going to look, it's not the Niners where you're going to look at some of the wild shit that they're doing, whether it's motions or design and be like, man, how did they come up with that? But just consistently creating conflict for a defense that really struggled to communicate in the second half of this game.

28:46Robert Mays: And I feel like the Dallas coaching staff deserves a lot of credit for how that went on top of what the receivers did.

28:52Derrik Klassen: Okay. Also, it goes without saying, I guess, given the statistics, but the quarterback as well. Oh, yeah. Dak was so awesome in this game. And the game winning drive in particular. So good. So good. I charted the entire thing because I was so impressed by it. And like going back to my point about the Texans made this difficult. Even if the even if some of the stats are gaudy, I mean, on the first snap of that, you know, two two minutes and some change to play two timeouts in the two minute warning. Jalen Petrie almost picked him off on the very first snap of that drive looking for a dig to CD two snaps later on third and one.

29:31Derrik Klassen: Kamari Ramsey, the rookie safety, makes an amazing TFL to for to to force a fourth down. Dak answers that call on the little sit down route to fur.

29:42Robert Mays: That was another cool design. It's a bunch to the right. And because it's a bunch, Ferguson gets lost and he sits down over the ball. He's wide open and Dak hits him.

29:49Derrik Klassen: And then right after that is probably my favorite thing that happened in the NFL today, which is second and 10 hole shot across the, the, the far from the far hash. Jalen Petrie drops off his guy and is falling back on the route. So you've got Stingley and Petrie sandwiching the throw and Dak just fits it in between them beautifully, just arrogantly for a 15 yard gain. And that kind of gets the Cowboys into the territory where, all right, we can start thinking about winning this game instead of tying it. It was just a nails throw among like 10 that Dak made in this. You're talking about the comeback to CD?

30:26Robert Mays: Yeah. I mean, that ball, when that ball comes out, it comes out so early. And that's one where we talk again a lot. Design, guys open, guys dropping routes. There's nothing designy about that. That is a comeback against Derek Stingley one-on-one for CD Lamb. And if that ball doesn't come out with the exact timing that it does, that thing does not get completed. That's screw you. Here's this. And it's the coolest thing. That was the thing that CD did so consistently in this game. There were three or four examples of it. I wish I could point to more of them specifically. It's just in my wall of notes here.

30:59Robert Mays: But on that play that he makes against Stingley, CD being so friendly coming back to the ball. And when you have a quarterback who is going to test those tight windows, he's going to give you chances. you have to earn those by playing that way you have to make your quarterback right on some of those throws and cd just consistently three or four times throughout this game is making catches in some of those tight windows because of how friendly he's being to the quarterback how aggressively he's coming back to the ball and that was another example of that derek and if

31:29Dave Helman: you're going to be one of the best offenses in the league you have to have both gears right of like we can scheme it up and i obviously i think that the cowboys have mostly proven they can do that and then you've got to just be able to win one-on-one football and I think that they proved that they could do that too and so this was I even looked this up for the other end like this was in terms of second halves that D 'Amico Ryans has ever coached with the Texans it was the third worst by EPA per play and success rate and some of that is like sure they got schemed up but like some of that is they just got beat one-on-one like I just thought that this was all around and incredible performance by the Cowboys.

32:05Robert Mays: They got bailed out a little bit, right? You have those two Lasseter penalties on that one drive. They got a little bit of help, but the Cowboys defense deserves a ton of credit. Now the Texans are 0-4. They're sitting at 0-4, and this is one of those games where can't blame it on the offense. The offense did plenty to win this game.

32:22Derrik Klassen: This was a top 10 EPA per dropback of CJ Stroud's entire career. And we talked about it when they fell to 0-3 that even if the Texans defense hasn't lived up to the reputation the offense hasn't been pulling its weight the offense did enough to win this game and like even and you know they're picking on ready steward man they were picking on him cj made several equally impressive throws in this game like he was dealing and you're gonna give up points and yards to the cowboys offense when these guys are clicking but this was a week where you needed that you needed the houston defense to step up And even if you just make one play, they needed to, they needed to make a play in crunch time there.

33:03Derrik Klassen: And yeah, I, I didn't think the offense was doing enough over the first three weeks. They did plenty today.

33:10Robert Mays: The one play I found it, there was, we actually showed a replay of it, but it was a 16 yard catch by CD late in the third quarter and Bullock was driving down on the crosser. And unless CD comes back to that ball, just very subtly, that, that pass is not completed. And the other thing that really stuck out about that play, the one-on-one blocks on that play from Tyler Guyton and Tyler Booker to give Dak space to find a little, to give Dak the room to find a little bit more space in the pocket. That's been quietly something we haven't really talked about with the Cowboys offense. Guyton has played really well over the first part of this season.

33:46Robert Mays: And we, I don't know if we ended up talking about him as like one of the players who could swing the season, but we should have, I think we might've just because he has been such a, I would say just a question mark over his first couple of years because he's been hurt so much. Like the idea that he's been disappointing or was kind of a lost cause coming into the season that I never really understood because we hadn't seen him. And the injuries were coming. He got hurt in training camp one year. I mean, it just completely derails what your season is going to look like. And so for him to be as good as he has and for us to not really be talking about the state of the offensive line when they haven't had Tyler Smith for the first month of the season, to me, is a definitive win for the Cowboys.

34:27Derrik Klassen: And Schottenheimer said after the game, there's at least a chance Tyler Smith could be back for week five. So and even if he's not the fact that they're even planning for that right now and the offensive line has not been an issue overall. It's like it's not the reason why you've lost the games you lost. Big, big win.

34:44Robert Mays: The Texans defense is obviously a very good unit. They've been a very good unit for most of the past month. But Derek, this is one of those moments where you're sitting here at Owen for it's probably not going to happen again. You're probably not going to have the miracle come back that you did last year to claw back into the playoffs. And it's just a reminder that these defensive teams, it can feel fleeting, man. It can feel really fleeting. If you don't really take advantage in those moments that you can kind of take it all the way with one of those teams, it was probably last year for them to do it.

35:17Robert Mays: It's very easy with teams that are built like this for you to look back and think about what if and realize that you might have missed your window to do it like driven by that side of the ball. And it's starting to sadly feel like we might be in that place with the Texans.

35:31Dave Helman: And, you know, the worst part of it, I thought C.J. Stroud was unbelievable in this game. C.J. Stroud was incredible. Like if the whole calculus for this team was that the Texans defense was going to play at a really, really high level. And then C.J. Stroud was going to return to whatever form that we thought he could be like a top 10 ish quarterback. And then the offensive line was going to get better. I think long term, I still have faith that the Texans defense can be like top five, top six by the end of the year. I think CJ Stroud has been one of the best five or six quarterbacks in the NFL thus far.

35:58Dave Helman: But the offensive line and all of the skill player injuries, obviously Nico Collins missing time, Higgins not being able to play all of that stuff. That to me has been more damaging. And because I think if that stuff was even at the most middle outcome for what those things could have been, I think they could live with what had happened to their defense the first month of the season. But most of that stuff outside of Stroud alone was in like the bottom 20th percentile for what could have happened. And I think that that's why they've ended up where they have. And last year, the defense rose to such a level that they could carry it.

36:28Dave Helman: Like you're saying, I think for a defense to rise to that level is really, really hard.

36:34Robert Mays: And we thought they might be able to. But again, I think it just speaks to how hard it is to carry over that type of performance on defense. Like the Seahawks are second in the NFL in EPA per play. They've done a really good job of maintaining that level. But it's really, really hard to do that year in, year out. The Texans were able to do it for multiple seasons in a row. But I think there's a reason that one of the things we fall back on and talking about how you sustain success in the league is that as a defense, it's just more volatile from season to season than offense typically is. And so for them to kind of be on the other end of that volatility, and that doesn't mean going from a good defense to being a bad defense.

37:10Robert Mays: It means going from the best defense in the NFL. And if you look at a lot of the numbers last year, it's Seahawks, Texans, Texans won two. I think Seattle finished number one in defensive DVOA, but there are so many just ridiculous rate stats for the Texans defense last year. And doing that again, over and over and over again, is really, really hard. And when you fall from being that sort of defense that can truly carry you through an entire season to a defense that's fourth, fifth, sixth best in the league, just kind of a normal run of the mill, great defense, that gap, you feel it. and that is the gap that we have felt with the Houston Texans this year unfortunately even if down to down they have still been really good on that side of the ball for the most part and for Dallas I mean this is a game where for you to scrape the two and two here and not fall another game behind and kind of keep pace in a division where the Eagles look really messy the Giants are winning the division but the Giants have beaten the Dolphins the Cardinals and the Cowboys jumped on the Cowboys in that weird week one game it's this is a big win for Dallas not only for just kind of proof of concept about what the offense can do against a really good unit, but to stay at two and two and really keep yourself very much alive to be at the top of the

38:19Derrik Klassen: division sooner rather than later is a huge one, especially after a sky is falling sort of weak with the way it ended in Rio, which I just never really understood.

38:28Robert Mays: I just never really understood that. It's a tough moment for your head coach. It's an embarrassing moment. I think they've really had to dig themselves out of that hole just from an optics perspective. But in terms of what the football team looked like against the Ravens team, I think is really good. I just never understood why we were in panic mode.

38:43Derrik Klassen: It's the way you lose it. Like, you know, we don't, we don't have to rehash that during the recap a week later, but the way that that gets away from you, even if the Ravens are a good team, but the bounce back was impressive.

38:55Robert Mays: Let's get to our next one here. The Jacksonville Jaguars win an ugly one, 22 to 17 against the Bengals. I wanted to talk about this just because it's a reminder that the Jags can win in a bunch of ways. we've talked so much about the offense. We've talked so much about how Trevor has played, what Liam Cohen has done for them to win this game against the Bengals, where it was kind of sloppy at times that the offense wasn't moving the ball that consistently down to down. And you really rely on your defense in two different ways. The run defense was phenomenal again. I mean, their ability to make teams one dimensional and then create one or two turnovers over the course of the game.

39:30Robert Mays: This is what contenders look like. Contenders can beat you in a bunch of different ways. They can lean on different elements of their team week to week, depending on what the situation calls for. And I think we put the Jags at the table for a reason last year or last week. I mean, they have enough in kind of every facet to be dangerous and be able to steal these things in different styles of play. And that is really what stuck out to me today. And so the Jacksonville Jaguars sitting at three and one winning in different ways against good teams. You have our attention.

40:02Dave Helman: I thought overall like there were so many different impressive parts to me about this game because this is one of those games where Joe Burrow throws for 400 yards and that seems like something that would be really bad obviously but then I look at how the Jaguars kind of got there obviously one is stopping the run so they kind of had to throw that was a big part of it and then the other thing was they played so much like cloud coverage and I do think that Joe Burrow was he was extremely willing to throw into that hole in this game like that 10 to 25 yard right on the sideline, that sort of thing.

40:30Dave Helman: He actually had nine completions, 11 to 25 yards outside the numbers, which is the most in a game since Dak did it in November of 2023. But the reason I bring all that up is they were making him either do that or check the ball down. They were not giving them any explosives over the top. And they said, fine, we'll give you these 16 yard chunks. How about you do it 30 times over the course of 60 minutes? Is that enough to beat us? Because this defense overall all year has been really good in the red zone. And they were today like Like they got the pick off of him, like they were able to get some other stops.

41:01Dave Helman: Like I thought that they played a very, very thoughtful and impressive bend don't break sort of game plan. And for the most part, executed on it. And if anything, they should have had another interception that Travis Hunter. The interception was one thing. It was kind of like thrown a little bit over T Higgins's head. But he jukes T Higgins out of his shoes after, which I thought was one of the coolest things that happened to the day. And it just got ripped off because of Eric Armstead got a roughing the passer penalty on it. So like I thought the way that the Jags defense was trying to play and what they accomplished, I thought was really impressive, despite what the box score is going to look like if you just look at Joe Burrow's passing numbers.

41:38Derrik Klassen: I'm glad you brought up the Travis Hunter interception. My main impression is just the shit that the Jags did wrong. And I think it's it's a good point. The interception of Joe, I mean, not not a pick you expect Joe Burrow to throw in the red zone. fantastic job by the Jags and just making him drill down snap after snap. And eventually he made a backbreaking mistake, but the big stuff that stood out to me in this game. So Jacksonville got, uh, what they drew 13 flags for 125 yards. 10 of those happened in the first half. They negated the Travis Hunter interception because of the Armstead roughing.

42:13Derrik Klassen: Uh, and that the Bengals kicked a field goal on that drive. So like having that negated directly leads to Cincinnati points. basil tootin has a 44 yard touchdown brought back by a holding flag same drive they still drive down to the three yard line and robert hainsey commits a hold that negates they shot themselves in the

42:31Robert Mays: foot in plus territory a lot in this game for a lot of field goals as a result of it was more than it was in when i framed it earlier the offense did move the ball it was just messy when

42:41Derrik Klassen: they got it they were fine they couldn't get out of their own way anton harrison negated a touchdown with a holding flag. And like I said, they did a lot of shit poorly in this game, just sloppy mistakes. And it stood out to me that they overcame it anyway. Like you said, to play like this on the road and negate turnovers, negate touchdown opportunities, let the Bengals score points when you didn't, when you had chances to snuff out drives, I thought it was so incredibly impressive. And then what? The Jags scored their final points of this game with seven minutes to play and the bang and the bingles had multiple opportunities to go steal it from them and that's what i found myself thinking as the noon window wound to a close where i was like well jags you do stupid you you play stupid games you win stupid prizes like even parker washington stepping out of bounds on the third and ten that could have iced the game it's like you have given the bingles so many opportunities that in this league that is how you lose road games and for the Jags to not let that happen I thought was incredibly impressive I mean shit even on the final drive Joe just went boom boom boom first three plays of the Bengals like last gas drive were all chunk gains and they got down near the red zone and the Jags forced three incompletions and then Rayon um oh goodness I lost his name in my notes Rayon Lane I think the safety who's not a player like he's never started for them makes a phenomenal tackle on that fourth down to get them off the field and get the win i just you're not supposed to survive this many mistakes in the nfl and i think it speaks a lot of the jags that they did i mean it's the forcing

44:21Robert Mays: the turnovers is what flipped the game and they these are plays where those turnovers are earned i mean the first one josh heinz allen gets immediate pressure um in the the interception in the Joe Burrow throws in the two minute drill. And I think that you can explain it away a little bit because he was getting hit as he makes that throw. I think Jordan Lewis might've picked that ball off anyway. He was sitting right underneath it where Joe Burrow was trying to go with that ball. And it's just a reminder that even in a game again, where Joe Burrow throws for 400 yards, there were some really nice moments.

44:51Robert Mays: Derek, I'm glad you pointed that out about the whole shots. They were playing so much cloud coverage. He was willing to throw the ball into that area. There were more, there were a handful of just bully ball T Higgins back shoulder throws in this game. Like the Bengals had their moments in the passing game, but I think there were still enough reminders of what sort of defensive team the Jags are. If you watch that interception, Antonio Johnson, they're in like a funky cover to look, and he takes the vertical on that play to take it away. And that's just something where this team, so rarely do you watch them guarding space in zone coverage.

45:25Robert Mays: Like they are just so good at snuffing things out. And that play was a really good example of it. And so even if Joe's getting hit on that play, I still think there's a chance Jordan Lewis gets a hand on that ball or picks it off just because of how well gloved up everything was. And on the play before that, Antonio Johnson's the one that took away the vertical and that cover to look, he had a run stuff coming down on third down to make that on second down to make that third down when Joe throws the interception. And then he had another one that was a five yard loss in the first quarter flying downhill.

45:57Robert Mays: So just everybody, Jerry and Jones had a really nice moment in coverage on that drive where the Bengals were down 1610. It was they try to throw another back shoulder ball on second and 10. He snuffed that out coverage or Hunter did a fantastic job on the out and up to Hinsley or to Tinsley on that third down. And so, again, even in a game where Joe Pro threw for 400 yards, I know Jamar Chase got hurt early on, but I still think that you feel the quality of the Jags defense over the course of these games, their ability to stop the run and then their ability to come up with enough plays in the secondary.

46:30Robert Mays: It's just a good unit, in my opinion.

46:32Dave Helman: It's a really good unit. And that is, again, why I wanted to bring up them kind of almost on purpose, allowing those whole shots compared to what we just talked about with the Texans, right, where it's a lot of dropped coverage. It's a lot of beaters for the stuff that they like to play. It's a lot of Dallas cooking up these special plays for as much as the Bengals were getting a lot of these chunk plays. It was either, like you said, T Higgins or some of the ancillary guys made really good plays like Myers had a really nice catch down at the end get sick he had one and so some of those guys just made plays but it really was the jaguars just saying we're going to give you this prove to me that you can do something else to beat me and they couldn't and i thought that again for for as crazy as the box store looks i thought this was an incredibly impressive day um for their defense and like you're mentioning like teams when they prove to you they can win in a bunch of different ways that is the sign of a contender and a lot of times the last thing i wanted to say about how weird this game was it's only one of 11 games since 2000 where a team has thrown for 400 passing yards and scored fewer than 20 points it was just a really weird game overall from that sense too do you remember the

47:39Derrik Klassen: rendition of this game from last year when joe burrow got hurt and the jags allowed a 92 yard go ahead touchdown drive in the dying moments and they couldn't get off the field because of flags and miscommunications. And ironically, they won 13 games last year, so they wound up being a good team. But it's so easy to come up with ways to lose games like this when you can't get out of your own way or when you make mistakes. And yeah, it matters to me that they won a clunker like this.

48:10Robert Mays: Their offense is going to find some moments over the course of the game. They did it in this game again. The drive to go up 16-10. The fake toss gun from play action to Josh Cameron, who shook off Jordan Battle coming downhill. It was a great yak play. They had a little flash play action where Brenton Strange kind of blocks down for a second, leaks out for 11 yards, and then their drive to go up 23-10. It's a really cool design on a chunk plate of Brenton Strange on like a deep wrap route. And then it's like a same side power to Chris Rodriguez for the touchdown with Cole Van Lannan pulling. And Cole Van Lannan doesn't really block anybody, but because of the way that the run hits, Chris Rodriguez essentially goes untouched for 25 yards.

48:54Robert Mays: It's actually a great job by Anton Harrison because I'm going to say, you know who blocks somebody and Tom, that's the reason that Van Landen didn't have anybody to block. Cause he's supposed to kick it. They end that on the line of scrimmage, I assume. And because he crosses Harrison's face, he takes him in the moment,

49:06Dave Helman: which actually I thought that was a cool call from the Jaguars because what the Bengals had been doing in this game was letting the end slice. And then they would fire a backer down into the sea gap so that they could get presence there for whatever they wanted to for some of the split zone stuff and then the jags run the speeder where we're like we're just gonna wash him if he's gonna go inside anyway let's take the tackle wash him all the way down and then we're gonna get this puller out where we want like that was one of those where you see the best play callers like find some little thing that the defense is trying to do to them and pick it apart for what was like literally the game winning touchdown like that ends the game for them effectively or at least lets them get into a comfortable position.

49:43Robert Mays: Let's get to our next one here. After a week of Drake May panic discourse, the New England Patriots really kind of like salvage their season in a way by beating the Buffalo Bills today. Instead of going to one and three, the Pats now sit at two and two, the Bills are at three and one. Drake May, you know, we'll talk about it. A couple of frustrating moments yet again, but for the most part over the course of this game, performance that looked a lot more like 2025 Drake May than what we have seen so far this year. Drake May and the New England Patriots offense after knocking off the bills. You once again have our attention.

50:20Dave Helman: They're back. My favorite son is back. He that I'm glad you said it was like 2025 because he still did silly shit sometimes in 2025. The fumbles, the trying to do a little bit too much every now and then. He's still doing a lot of that. he probably just got away with it a little bit more last year than than you would normally think a quarterback would be able to. So he has the strip sack in this game, which the strip sack is funny, too, because one, it's the small hands like this is going to be a thing with him probably for a majority of his career. It's just the way that he's built. But the thing about it is he kind of puts himself in those positions where on that play, the right guard is just getting pushed right into his face and he tries to slide up into a pocket that is is non-existent.

51:00Dave Helman: And so like he really didn't have a good answer there, but he's like sliding up into like the trash compactor from Star Wars and just lets himself get strip sacked. And it's like we should maybe avoid that situation if we can, if we know that we're a player that is kind of prone to some of these. But at the same time, him being able to step up into trash like that and make those plays, it's why he had five or six incredible throws and plays this game that looked like last year's Drake May.

51:27Robert Mays: His ability to find space and time in the pocket showed up over and over and over again in this game. You guys, you watch Parks and Rec, right? Of course. There's the episode where everyone's...

51:36Derrik Klassen: I'm an elder millennial. Of course I watched Parks and Rec.

51:39Robert Mays: There's the episode where everyone's sick and Rob Lowe's just looking in the mirror and he's just like, stop pooping. That's how I feel about Drake May, where I'm just sitting there and I'm like, stop fumbling. Stop putting the ball on the ground. Other than that, other than that play, I am very into the performance

51:54Derrik Klassen: that we saw from Drake May tonight. We set out to parse through this game just because like it's a wild finish and what what the hell happened in the second half here and they were going back and forth down the stretch and re-watching it while we were getting ready for the show I didn't go into it because you know everything's happening all at once in the early window you can't catch everything when there's nine games on at the same time I went into it not knowing full well what to expect and halfway through the game I was like Drake yes it's like oh my like I felt like this wave of relief watching him make some of these throws you know both of the touchdowns to Romeo Dobbs were fine I mean the first one is uh the

52:37Robert Mays: first touchdown to Romeo Dobbs uh re-watching it my soul left my body you did like you yelped very loudly re-watching that so we're playing the clip right now so the the Patriots on this play are trying to run a fake screen to the right where they're getting guys down the field The Bills glove it up in a lot of situations for a lot of quarterbacks. That play would be dead if you trying to fake that screen and throw the ball down the field is is taken away. Instead, Drake may get all the way back to the backside to Romeo Dobbs in a pocket that is condensing and rips that thing for a touchdown. That is an incredible play from him right there.

53:17Robert Mays: Like and that he did a plenty of that stuff today. But that that was the moment rewatching this game where I was like, holy shit, that's an impressive play.

53:24Dave Helman: Well, and that's what felt like he was back. Like what, Robert or Dave, either of you, what do you think was most missing from the first three weeks of Drake May compared to last year? It was like he just wasn't making the I can fit it in there kind of throw. And he did decisiveness.

53:40Derrik Klassen: Yes, if you want to arrogance.

53:42Dave Helman: Yes, because like I think trying to fit that Dobbs throw in there, I think that's a little crazy. but he's willing to do like getting to the backside skinny posts like that in the red zone is like that is big boy NFL quarterback he had that throw he was taking a shot from

53:54Robert Mays: Rousseau as he throws that ball he gets obliterated as he lets that thing go yeah and he was doing

54:00Dave Helman: that again all game and so you get the one moment where you get strip sack but like I said there were 10 other plays where that was worth it to you and I think the other one where I really felt that where I was like oh he he believes that he can do this again and he's playing like he did last year was it was the second quarter, about eight minutes and 15 seconds left. Matt Collins like starts to bend in over and snaps it back off into the corner. It's not really open. And Drake is like, I'll get it in there anyway. And he puts it just over the top for Matt Collins to go make a play. And it was like, OK, between the touchdown, him making that throw, he made three or four other ones in this game that were just like tight window, have to fit it in there like this looks like the player that he was for a lot of last season.

54:40Dave Helman: And I know the first three weeks were disgusting. I feel pretty confident believing that this version of Drake may is much more reality than whatever the first three weeks of the season were.

54:51Derrik Klassen: He had a throw and I apologize to our wonderful producer, Katie. I forgot to give it to her ahead of time, but like at the very beginning of the third quarter in the stat sheet, it's a six yard gain, but it was second and seven beginning of the third quarter. And they like they motion Henry across. So it's like three guys on one side and Dobbs just runs like an out to the sticks, but the whole play collapses and Drake has to bail out of the pocket. He's on the minus 18 and throws a ball to the 30 on the run and just puts it right on Dobbs, like just lasers it right to him. And it sets up a third and one.

55:30Derrik Klassen: It doesn't look remarkable on the stat sheet at all, but I I was like, holy shit, that A, that was an incredible throw, like on the run, six yards behind the line of scrimmage. And B, yeah, that's the type of shit that was missing that turns that into an easy third and one instead of third and seven. And you're getting off the field right at the start of the third quarter.

55:48Robert Mays: I thought he did an incredible job buying time just subtly with sliding in the pocket, just find it by himself a little bit more time and space. And then the other thing just with his legs. I mean, how many big scrambles did he have in this game? That was the other element that looked a lot like what he was doing last year. And so just a really, really impressive game. And we haven't talked about that last drive. I mean, on that last drive, again, keeps his eyes downfield while he's sliding to the left to find Dobbs for a completion. Hits a deep wrapper out to Chisholm down the field. And then the catch that Chisholm makes that one-handed catch to win the game.

56:20Robert Mays: I mean, just ridiculous on multiple levels. Yeah, just another one where he's buying just a little bit of time to his right. We're playing it right now if you guys are watching. just buying a little bit of time to his right and then just fits that thing in there and just what a catch by effingism my god derek was just watching it in wonderment right there i i it's

56:38Dave Helman: it was one of the coolest plays of the day and the fact too that that is like not supposed to be a player who was like really going to be in their plans this year is another incredible part of it but i was just really excited to see because i think the the fact too that we got this version of drake may back before aj brown is back that makes me feel very very happy and we'll see what he looks like when he gets back but i'm glad

57:01Derrik Klassen: we got there before aj brown to come back as somebody who invested heavily in what the patriots could be this year like i said it was by like the third quarter of this game there was just relief washing over my body where it's like okay i don't know how many games the patriots are going to win but they don't look like a disaster against a good team a team that was three or no heading into this

57:22Robert Mays: game so let's talk about that team there are a few things that jump out to me about the bills in this game. Derek, the point, the play you pointed out where he gets all the way back to Hollins, that that plays on the backside where Hollins runs that little crosser returned. That is deep into the play. The exact same situation as him getting all the way to the backside on the Dobbs touchdown. If you look at the stat sheet in this game, next gen had May pressured on 43 % of his dropbacks. I think that's very misleading in terms of what the game actually felt like down to down. He had a lot of time in the pocket consistently.

57:54Robert Mays: So if you actually look at the numbers, even though he was pressured 43 % of the time, a lot of that is coming deeper into the play. The Bills only had three quick pressures on the day per next gen. Two guys had more than two pressures. Rousseau and I can't remember who the other defensive lineman was. It doesn't really matter. Both of those guys that had more than two pressures, their average time to pressure was more than three seconds. And so the pass rush really was not affecting this game consistently, even if the pressure numbers look good over the course of the game. That's one area of concern for the bills and just the bills defense and where it stands right now.

58:30Robert Mays: Then the other area of concern is they shot themselves in the foot multiple times on offense again. I mean, Josh Allen gets away with that backhanded flip at the goal line. There's no, there's no reason he got away with that. I mean, there are plenty of guys in range for to pick that off as he's doing that. It wouldn't even been a safety anyway. So him doing that in that moment, And then the throw late in the game is just completely unnecessary. Like you just don't need to do that in that moment. They just like take a beat here to if you watch it back to.

59:01Dave Helman: At the very beginning of the play, he thinks the corner is going to be open. And I think if he's able to throw it at the very top of his drop, it might be open. But then he has to evade a rusher. He like spins out of it and he like plans to throw it again. And there's nothing in his mind that tells him it's been a little bit too long for me to go and try to make that throw again. And he just tries to make it anyway. and it's obviously incomplete like with the amount of timeouts they had time they had it was only I think second and six or something like that like there was really no reason for him to make some of those plays I thought that was bizarre the other thing I think that was weird to me about this game the first two games of the season they ran over everybody out of the same formation basically which was like the five-man surface to one side weak zone the other way all whatever they've like gotten away from that and I don't know if that's like they want to diversify their game plan and their playbook as the season goes on.

59:51Dave Helman: And so they're tinkering with stuff, but it's just like their run game the past couple of weeks has been a little bit worse than the first couple of weeks because I think part of that.

59:59Robert Mays: And when you, and the, the, the way they were running the ball was impressive and the way they felt over the first three games, there were a couple of things that stood out to me about it and why the offense just felt different. One, I just thought that Josh Allen was seeing it extremely well over the first couple of games that has been less, reliable over the last couple of weeks, I would say. It hasn't felt nearly as clean. You talk about some of the run game stuff. The other thing is that they were just cooking people off play action. The amount of play action that they were using compared to what they had done in previous years, they were, I think, number one or number two in the league in under center play action rate, which even with the construction of their offense the last couple of seasons, an under center run team, they weren't a heavy play action team.

1:00:40Robert Mays: In this game, they used play action on 23 % of Josh Allen's dropbacks. He was six of seven for 103 yards and a perfect passer rating. He averaged 14.7 yards per attempt. They did it seven times.

1:00:52Derrik Klassen: They also just didn't run the ball very much in this game. Like for a, for a game that was never out of whack. This is James Cook's lowest carry total since the end of the 2024 season, 12 carries. And like the, it was, it was working. He had a 67 % rushing success rate as a team. They had a 53 % rushing success rate. I thought, and I know this is the type of shit that you can do when a team loses a game where you just nitpick every aspect of it. But for James Cook to feel like an afterthought, in my opinion, for the most part, and then obviously Dalton Kincaid getting two targets, which Joe Brady himself said, what the hell was I doing?

1:01:31Derrik Klassen: Why did I do that?

1:01:31Robert Mays: That's the other thing that stood out about the first couple weeks is that Dalton Kincaid was the most important pass catcher on the team.

1:01:36Derrik Klassen: Dalton Kincaid was off to this amazing start and he got two targets in this game. and at least one, if not both of them, were like late in the game. And so, like I said, it's easy to pick that shit apart after the game is already over. But both of those guys are way too good to be as not implemented as they were in this game.

1:01:56Robert Mays: And some frustrating moments. I mean, Josh Palmer drops that deep ball that he probably should catch down the field, which was kind of just a bizarre play.

1:02:02Dave Helman: In the weirdest way that I've ever seen someone try to catch a football in my life.

1:02:06Robert Mays: I think it was because it was so underthrown he didn't know what to do with it. Like it was just kind of a weird play overall, but he it almost short circuited his brain the way that ball came out of Josh Allen's hand.

1:02:16Dave Helman: That's the thing. Like, I don't fully blame him for it. Like it was coming in weird, like he's having to come back 20 yards to go and get that thing. Like it was a weird play, but I've never seen someone attack a football the way that he tried to attack it.

1:02:27Derrik Klassen: Was that the one I think that was I mean, yes, he should have caught that. I'm pretty sure that was the one that got negated by Deion Dawkins holding a guy anyway. right because deon deon dawkins had a rough day he did in this game as well like he had a holding call he had a hands to the face call in the red zone and gabe akas ran over him i was gonna say he got his ass whipped uh elijah ponder got him on an early i think actually ironically it was on a play action but yeah not a not a wonderful day for a guy that you can typically count on

1:02:56Robert Mays: yeah the bills offense is likely going to be fine i the things that worry me are just why the fact that we still have like these couple of Josh Allen moments in these games that are close is just, it's frustrating. I mean, it's, he's a phenomenal player. We, we see what he can do at his best. And then to have those couple of moments consistently, you just, you wish that just wasn't just a feature of who he is as a player at this point in his career, but it still kind of seems to be. And there's really no explaining that away. Like for as good as he is game in and game out, the fact that they probably still should have won this game based on how well the offense played down to down is just doesn't negate the fact that we have a couple of these every single week and the defense is struggling right now.

1:03:34Robert Mays: Like the mistakes on offense, the fact that you're going to still have a couple of them each week, apparently. And then what the way the defense is playing, it's frustrating. But my takeaway from this game is much more about the overall quality from the Patriots offense and the quarterback than it is anything Buffalo related. I guess outside of, is it time for defense panic, but we're still four weeks into the season with a new coordinator. Like I'm not there yet.

1:03:54Derrik Klassen: How much does it do for you? And Derek, I would love your answer on this. How much does it do for you that. Keon Coleman starting to look like the lights coming on. Is it too small of a sample size to be excited about that? Because he made some dope plays in this game.

1:04:08Dave Helman: I don't think so. Like I do, at least I don't know. He's probably never going to be as good as I wanted him to be coming out of Florida State. But if he can actually be a more functional part of the offense and we can get Dalton Kincaid back in the fold and we can find ourselves in the run game, which like even when the Bills have been really good at the past, Like even last year, they had a two or three week stretch where the run game was not very good before they had to like refine it again. And like that's just going to happen. And I trust that they can find those peaks again. And so if Keon Coleman is actually going to the one crazy play where he like bobbles it up to himself and catches it like that's kind of just randomness.

1:04:40Dave Helman: But there were a couple of other actual downfield shots where they are willing to throw him like those deep posts and stuff like that. Some of the same like Josh Palmer routes. And that to me is like meaningful signal that they do think that he can be a useful part of this thing by the end of it.

1:04:55Robert Mays: The Bills played, Dolan Kincaid ran 17 routes in this game. I just don't understand that. They played seven plays of 13 personnel. It's 13 % of their plays, which again, is just such a departure from what they were doing in the early part of the year. And then the other thing to mention, DJ Moore did get hurt in this game. So DJ Moore was only out there for about half of the Bills passing plays. But again, I don't think that's the reason that the Bills lost this game. All right, we're going to move on to some of the stuff that was not as exciting in week four. But first, we are going to take a quick break.

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1:08:20Robert Mays: What the f***? Let's get to a couple of the lesser performances from this week. We were going to put the Niners in You Have My Attention, and the Niners deserve that, right? The Niners are 4-0. We talk about teams winning in different ways. The fact that they were able to win this game when their offense wasn't rolling. I think the Niners have proven to be a very good team. But going back and rewatching the Broncos offense in this game, there are very few teams in the league when they're playing as the worst version of themselves that are more frustrating for me to watch than the Denver Broncos offense.

1:08:53Robert Mays: And today was kind of an all-timer. Bo Nix in this game averaged 4.6 air yards per attempt. It was negative three average air yards to the sticks. And there are a couple plays. I was re-watching it and literally turning around my computer to talk to Dave about them as I was re-watching them because of how frustrating they were in the moment. The Broncos offense, when they're in this mode, kind of gross. It's pretty disgusting. And today was another one of those games. And so not trying to take away any credit from the Niners who are four and oh, and we will talk about them and why they won this game.

1:09:26Robert Mays: But the Denver Broncos and their offense, what the man?

1:09:30Dave Helman: You know, the worst part about the Bo Nix, like the the air yards and all that stuff. It's not that it's just them calling screens or just them calling quick game. He holds on to the ball on real drop back concepts and then checks it down or he immediately or he's throwing the swing or he's like immediately just trying to get to the shout. like almost like like, you know, we talk about like the Aaron Rodgers, like performative deep balls. Bo Nix is like performatively holding onto the ball just so that he can get to eventually get to the running back check down in front of the ball. Like it just feels like that happens all too often where he's not really trying to progress the play.

1:10:06Dave Helman: He's just like, well, they're kind of playing shell coverage. I guess I'm just going to check this down immediately. And like I do think that that part is true. Like the Niners were, I think, playing on top of everything and saying, hey, you got to make these throws. If you're an NFL quarterback, for a team that is supposed to have like AFC championship caliber, you know, aspirations, you need a quarterback who's at least willing to try it. And I think the fact that we just have too many of these games and moments where he's not willing to be aggressive and ambitious until the game is like absolutely on the line in the fourth quarter, that I think is really, really concerning to me.

1:10:39Dave Helman: And this was they've had some games like this, like, you know, the Raiders game like this felt like that last year. The commanders game, I think, to an extent, this really might have been the worst one like on that front he averaged 4.6 air yards per attempt

1:10:53Robert Mays: he averaged 3.0 time to throw per next gen that's hard to do in an nfl game like i you wonder how does that happen the answer is exactly how this game unfolded for bonex and i think people are gonna there it's a combination of two things at once okay it is a staff that probably leans into a lot of the screens and the underneath stuff way more than they should. The most frustrating play collectively from this game for the Broncos, it's third and 10.

1:11:23Derrik Klassen: This was the play that unanimously disgusted all three of us at the same time, like alive in the moment. It's third and 10 with at the beginning of the third quarter,

1:11:32Robert Mays: they throw a screen, they get eight yards on the screen. And on fourth and two, they kick the field goal. Everything about that is confusing to me. like why throw the screen on third and 10, eight yards on that play. Are you expecting more than what you got there? Or are you just giving up?

1:11:50Derrik Klassen: It's a gorgeous play call. If your goal is to go for it on fourth and two from the plus 22,

1:11:56Robert Mays: the sheer amount of times though, they're doing that on third and long. I mean, they did it multiple times again in this game and it just, that's often how they operate. So that I think feeds into the worst impulses of the offense, but that's not it. The most frustrating that, That was a frustrating play just in terms of process, in terms of the decision-making in the moment. The most frustrating play of the game for me, there was a first and 20 in the third quarter. And the Broncos are running like dagger. And it's coming open. And you watch it coming open. And instead of throwing it on first and 20, which you're trying to get a chunk back, he turns it down and throws the check down right in front of Fred Warner, and it gets knocked incomplete.

1:12:37Robert Mays: I just don't. And there's he has plenty of time to throw that ball, like plenty of time. And it just happens way too often where we talk about like Drake may get in the backside of some of those throws. I don't know the last time I ever saw Bo Nix get all the way back to some of those throws beyond the ambition. It's just the decisions. The decision is made so early in the play where the ball is going. If it's not the check down, the only time a decision is happening late in the play is when he's trying to check it down. And that's why that throw he made to Waddle, I think it was in the Jags game.

1:13:10Robert Mays: It felt like seeing a unicorn because it just doesn't happen. And consistently in this game, there were examples like that that just weren't happening. And it's just a really frustrating offense to watch because the limitations of it are so real in the moment. And I think that this was another example of that today.

1:13:28Dave Helman: And that's where it gets difficult for me to like, how much can you untie it from like the play calling? because I think you that is the lasting image in my mind of Bo Nix is you have a dig route coming open. He says, I'm going to throw the check down anyway. Like he just does that sort of thing a lot. And even plays that he makes later in the down are not from the pocket. He will get outside of the pocket. And he did have a couple of those plays in the game. But if you're going to play that way, you need eight of them, not two of them. And I think that that is kind of the issue that they had in this game.

1:13:55Dave Helman: And so and then tying it back to the play calling, it's like, well, the offense is trying to get these chunks they're calling some of these plays and so at a certain point if he's not going to throw them you just get frustrated and you're like well f**k it then I guess we will call a bunch of swing screens and escort screens and we'll just call double slants this play and we'll throw another RPO it's like we'll boot him out so he'll throw it like at a certain point you just have to call what is going to be thrown and I think that that puts the play callers in a really difficult position whereas like at least last year Sean Payton has done this for such a long time with so many quarterbacks.

1:14:29Dave Helman: Davis Webb now having to take this over. And like, this isn't even an indictment of him. That's just like a difficult position to be in when you are that limited in terms of what the menu is going to be.

1:14:38Derrik Klassen: That's such a bleak thought, like halfway through the game. It's like, all right, call the shit that he'll throw. This isn't, this is not working.

1:14:47Robert Mays: It's the Broncos offense isn't a nightmare week in and week out. Yeah, plenty of games where they look pretty good. And it's like, oh man, like this thing probably does have enough juice combined with the defense for them to do something. It's just, it's so inconsistent. Like it just, there are certain games where it just looks like this, where they just refuse to attack certain areas of the field. They had one completion beyond 10 air yards today. One.

1:15:08Dave Helman: And I think it was outside the pocket. I don't think it was in structure. Yes. You can't live offense that way if you're not going to throw down the field in the pocket. It's just not going to work.

1:15:18Derrik Klassen: Three completions on the day for Bo Nix beyond the line of scrimmage and between the numbers. and those completions gained 14 yards.

1:15:26Robert Mays: The Niners do deserve some credit. I think there are a few different defensive players that stuck out to me. Part of this is Diamant or Lenore eating up Courtland Sutton one-on-one on the outside and taking away those opportunities because that's where Bo Nix wants to go with the ball, right? I have my one-on-one on the outside. I'm going to take it. And Lenore consistently was winning in those situations throughout this game. Malik Mustafa had a beautiful PBU late in the second quarter, driving downhill on Evan Ingram. Even that throw, though, is late. And so that's the reason that he's able to get in and play that even come into play and make a play on that ball.

1:16:01Robert Mays: So the Niners defense does deserve plenty of credit. Lenore specifically, I thought, really did a good job while he was playing on the outside before Upton Stout got banged up and he had to move inside. And then on offense, if you keep the game close, even if you're doing a relatively decent job against this team, considering how they move the ball in the first few games, they're going to find opportunities like they're going to hit four or five of these over the course of the day and that's exactly what happened i mean you talk about being able to get to the backside hitting deep end breakers the one that purdy hits to evans late in the second quarter uh that thing gets let go so so early for him to make that completion that's the driver they end up kicking a field goal it's the same driver they had that really sweet use check slant off the fake screen which was an incredibly cool design so that's again a couple of those moments he finds use check after extending in the fourth quarter on that same drive it's like a deep curl to mike evans and then the design to set up the touchdown for 17-6 was like a mike evans insert play action where he gets lost on the left sideline which is really really well done and then obviously when you can spit a middle screen to your tight end and have him take it 60 yards for a touchdown it's a good place to be as an offense the tight end coming off of an acl injury by the

1:17:20Dave Helman: way like the fact that he has achilles achilles achilles eight and a half months ago the fact that he has as much gas as he does is completely insane to me and i think what the other really frustrating part about the broncos offense the way that they were calling it and playing it i thought for three quarters that broncos defense played about as well as you can hope against the 49ers they were limiting they made them they turned them into like an average offense which like if you can do that to Kyle Shanahan in this offense like that is you take that every single time like I thought some of the stuff they were trying to limit explosives in the run game was good like they had to turn to the weird Debo Samuel stuff to really get that to pop the passing game was really not good until the fourth quarter like they were doing a really good job of they were still getting away with man coverage and even that might have only fallen away because Patrick Chetan gets hurt in this game and Riley Moss was questionable and like ended up being hurt in this game and so the the fact that they squandered what was like to me I thought a really impressive Broncos defensive performance, because the one thing I want to give them credit for there, this is a Niners team that especially in the run game, all they want to do is how can we hit the C gap?

1:18:22Dave Helman: How can we get this thing to stretch? How can we go over there? And I thought the Denver Broncos consistently did a good job of finding ways to fire somebody in there. Like there was a third and one where they fire Hufanga in their forces to play to cut back to the middle. Well, that's where the Niners don't have an advantage in the run game against this team. And it gets stopped and they have to end up punting. And so I thought they played really well. But like you said, eventually the title wave is going to hit if you let them hang around in a game like this

1:18:47Derrik Klassen: i do want to say to that point bonex didn't play well i'm not defending that aspect of it but you lose sertan and moss in this game they lost pat bryant too after like one of their best offensive plays of the day i think they got screwed a little bit i don't agree with the marvin mims turn like the muff punt call oh yeah that's true i don't i don't agree with what happened there where like, yes, his his wrist hit down before his elbow. And if you slow it down, you can tell that maybe that's a fumble. But by the spirit of what was going on there, I think he's down. And so do you want to play a drag them to hell game where you win nine to six and it looks that ugly?

1:19:29Derrik Klassen: Absolutely not. But what they were doing against the Niners shorthanded was incredibly impressive. And San Francisco was punting out of their own red zone when that happened. And all of a sudden they get to the plus 28 because of a special teams gaffe, which in my humble opinion, wasn't actually a gaffe. And that changes the whole dynamic of this thing from the late third quarter onward. So if I had to guess, I think the Niners find a way to win anyway, because they're often they were just a more well-rounded team. But I do think that it sucks that that break is sort of what tipped the scales and got the snowball rolling towards San Francisco.

1:20:08Derrik Klassen: So I do agree with. Yeah. Yeah.

1:20:09Robert Mays: I mean, that's that's one where, again, we've said it in real time. The letter of the law, I can understand why it's a fumble, but you watch that play a thousand times. The forearm probably touches down and it's probably down.

1:20:20Derrik Klassen: I in the spirit of what was happening, I don't think that should be a turnover, but it is what it is.

1:20:25Robert Mays: Let's get to our next one here. Speaking of ugly games, the Rams somehow beat the Eagles today. Twenty four to twenty, despite them trying to lose that game in a myriad of ways, which we can talk about. Part of it is the Eagles inability to convert any third down ever. Ninety three total yards for Jalen Hurts, who goes 12 of 27. The Eagles averaged three yards per play. They go 0 of 12 on third down. Honestly, this entire game, what the f*** was happening?

1:20:56Dave Helman: It was raining early on, too, and like through a lot of this game, which like this game was disgusting in about every way that a football game could possibly be disgusting because you get the worst version of the Eagles who are already down like obviously Devonta Smith did not play in this game Dallas Goddard has has been missing Saquon Barkley early on in this game gets banged up and so that's not necessarily excuse making but it's like Lane Johnson didn't

1:21:19Robert Mays: play in this game we know the land of Dickerson was hurt you really felt that over the course of

1:21:23Dave Helman: the day it was rough like this was basically not the Eagles offense that you think that they are when you just look at the depth tried in week one and so I'll give them like a little bit of grace for that but still arriving at a point where not only 0 for 12 on third down but only one of four on fourth down so you had 16 conversion down opportunities and converted one of them like that is that is going to lose you the football game every single time which the proof of that is that's the thing that's the crazy part about this the rams played a game that absolutely did not deserve to win either and they just in the fourth quarter were able to buckle up with the offense and like were able to drive down and like I just thought this was another game where by halftime I was like man it does not feel like the Rams are going to be able to turn this around it doesn't feel like their day weather's bad Stafford doesn't look right Devontae Adams can't catch the ball today and the Eagles just kept letting them hang around which that's the last thing I want to say the best versions of the Eagles feel like they keep teams in it and then finally choke them out in the fourth quarter.

1:22:24Dave Helman: The worst version of the Eagles is they stumble around in games they should win until the fourth quarter, and then they somehow just lose it all.

1:22:32Robert Mays: Saying they felt like the Rams are going to lose it at halftime with 1416 left in the game. Stafford throws incomplete to Tyler Higbee on fourth and eight. The Eagles run the ball nine times in a row, nine times. Thank you, Mr. Rooney. Okay. Including a scramble. So that was a called pass, but Jalen Hurts takes off. They get down inside the five. It's third and two on that third and two play hurts bobbles the handoff because cam Juergens hits him while going in motion. He hits him while he's trying to hand the ball off. So there's no handoff that even happens. If you look at that play, you have three Eagles getting insane movement on one Rams defender.

1:23:12Robert Mays: It's probably going in for a touchdown. Instead it's fourth and two by young gets a pressure on that play the eagles do not score and then the rams the door is open they go down they score to make a 20 to 17 including some just ridiculous plays he'd be made it's a back shoulder play against jihad campbell that's just a crazy catch double move by puka who does a great job coming back to like a severely underthrown ball with stafford's getting hit and then kyron williams is short on a second down completion it should be third and one the eagles get a personal foul Rams go down and score. Then it's 20 to 17 game is now very much in play and the Rams somehow claw their way back into it.

1:23:51Robert Mays: And so even with everything that we're talking about with the offense, if that play doesn't happen where Cam Juergens hits jail and hurts when he's trying to hand that ball off on third and two, there's a very good chance the Eagles win this game. That's how many mistakes the Rams made.

1:24:05Derrik Klassen: We're having the other version of the Eagles conversation. Yeah. To Derek's point, there's two ways this go. We're doing the, what the fuck just happened? how did you lose this game? How did you not convert a third down? There's an alternate universe where the Eagles win this game, what 27 to 10. And it's like, we looked like dog shit and we beat the Superbowl favorites by three scores. And we're not going to apologize for anything, which is something we've done a lot after Eagles games and for it to be what was their,

1:24:36Robert Mays: like their, their win probability was 96 % to be at a 96 % win probability for a vintage,

1:24:42Derrik Klassen: ugly, dominant Eagles win and then get the other version of an Eagles game in such a short amount of time was a crazy swing.

1:24:50Dave Helman: The other little bit about the Rams, they tried to give you back the game at the end in the exact way the Rams always do, which is they get the game to within three. They make that score, whatever, whichever touchdown that was. And then they kick the ball out of bounds and it gives the Eagles the ball at, I think, the 40. I'm like, how are we making mistakes like this? Obviously, Miva said even he missed like a 48 yard or early in this game, too. So it's like in all of the ways that the Rams typically give up games that they should win, which is like by the special teams and doing stupid shit at the end.

1:25:21Dave Helman: They still tried to do that. And the Eagles still couldn't get over the finish line.

1:25:26Derrik Klassen: Keep harping on it, Derek. I'm not going to let this Rams special team shit go.

1:25:30Robert Mays: I've got it. I've got it all. Well, first of all, the Rams also tried to give it away in the last drive because Stafford tried to throw a pick to Jonathan Jones that he dropped. So that didn't happen. Throw that on the pile. Rams Stafford throws a pick on the first drive on an overthrow. Second drive. I think Davis Davis Allen gets a hold to make it second and 16. They force a foot field goal. Third and one Morrow Jomo blows up a play by crossing Coleman Shelton's face. Britton Covey returns a punt to the Rams 17 yard line with six and a half minutes left in the second quarter. So the Eagles have to go 18 yards for a touchdown.

1:25:59Robert Mays: That was a Darius Cooper mossing a guy play, which could have been a pick easily. Okay. Okay, Stafford overthrows Puka for an interception with 19 seconds left in the half. The Eagles then score on that drive following a pass interference. That was a swing that probably could have changed the entire game. Stafford misses Devontae Adams on a double move with 13 minutes left. Harrison Meeves misses a field goal with seven minutes left in the third quarter. And then they kick the ball out of bounds at the end of the game.

1:26:28Robert Mays: In any world where the Eagles offense can do anything in this game, the Rams lose. and should lose based on how ugly this thing was for them for most of it decisively they lose i mean they almost lost decisively in this version of the game i jalen hurts did not play well like there were moments there was one very similar to the bone nicks play where jalen hurts just has a wrapper out coming wide open at one point in the game and just refuses to throw it and that that stuff is drives me crazy but when you look at the environmental factors with the eagles offense in this game. It's hard to have any sort of shot.

1:27:04Robert Mays: 57.6 % pressure rate for the Rams per next gen on a 61 % blitz rate. They played man 40 % of the time in this game. Hertz goes four of 11 for 46 yards on that, on those plays, the Eagles finished with a 36 % offensive success rate with the state of the offensive line with no Devante Adams. Like it, it was going to be really, really tough sledding for Jalen Hurts no matter what. So I'm not going to lay this at his feet. This is just an overall offensive failure from Philadelphia in part because of how shorthanded they were. But that's what it took for the Rams to claw their way back into this thing because of how many self-inflicted wounds the Rams had.

1:27:43Derrik Klassen: Imagine Sean McVay's internal monologue at like multiple points. Did you see him after the cam curl play?

1:27:49Robert Mays: Yes. He lost his mind. I think that was a situation where late in the game, I felt I'm sure after that Higby play happens, There are a lot of thousand yard stairs happening on that Ram sideline. And I will say that's why they deserve credit for those last couple of drives for them to actually pull themselves back into this thing and win it. They deserve credit for that. But for 50 minutes, this thing looked really, really ugly yet again. Like this team is out of sorts. Even if they managed to win this game, they are out of sorts.

1:28:21Derrik Klassen: Absolutely. And all, but also if we haven't mentioned it by name, the second and goal run that Kyron had to take the lead, like he had a lot of great plays in this game. It was, it was a top three play of Sunday. I know we've said a lot of things that happened today were great, but the way he just mossed half of Philly's defense to take the lead was, it was so cool.

1:28:42Robert Mays: The stiff arm to get Jeremiah Trotter on the ground. But then also as that's happening, he puts his foot in the ground and gets up field and makes Cooper Dejean miss and then shakes off two more guys. It's an awesome play. He was really good in the passing game today. Like he was a crucial player. Kyron Williams was for the Rams to win this game beyond him scoring that final touchdown. And you felt Puka too. If Puka doesn't play in this game, the Rams have absolutely no shot. All right, let's get to the last one here. The Chicago bears beat the New York jets 23 to 12 today. And I'm not saying that usually in when When we do teams in this segment, it's teams that should know better, should be better.

1:29:20Robert Mays: I'm not saying that the Jets losing this game is something they should have done. We should be mad at the Jets losing this game. The WTF framing on this is mostly just of how really weird of a game it was. Like, what the f*** was this game? The Bears had more first downs than the Jets ran plays in this football game. That is a real thing that happened. what a bizarre game all the way across the board do we know if that's ever happened before like

1:29:51Dave Helman: where no i did there are there's got to be someone who knows this information somewhere

1:29:55Derrik Klassen: there are so many stats coming out of this game where i'm dying to know what the precedent is and i and i just i i'm sure somebody will get to the bottom of it but putting the show together on sunday afternoon i just didn't have enough time but just what a ridiculous game and i we needed to highlight it because if you're not, if you're not watching everything closely, you're like, Oh, the bears covered with a backup quarterback at home against the jets scored

1:30:20Robert Mays: 23 points, whatever.

1:30:22Derrik Klassen: Oh, this wasn't interesting. And honestly, that might've been how I felt about this. If I didn't work on a show in Chicago with bears fans and this game was like front and center all day during the early window. And you look up and you're like, Holy shit. Have the jets had the ball at all in this entire game? Yeah. They had it for 17 minutes. which I did look that I was able to get to get that stat 17 minutes and 15 seconds of possession is the fourth lowest total of the last decade the Josh Johnson commanders had less than that in 2018 ironically the Alex Smith Chiefs had a lower time playing the Jets and then this didn't register for me Tyler Shucks debut against the Rams last year the Saints only had the ball for 16 minutes and

1:31:09Dave Helman: seven seconds that tracks every Rams drive was just a march to the end zone rare air in terms

1:31:16Derrik Klassen: of just not having the football the New York Jets did not have the football in this game second time in the Super Bowl era that a team's had more first downs than their opponent had

1:31:25Robert Mays: placed time in the Super Bowl era so the last 56 years that's unbelievable that I'm also going to

1:31:32Dave Helman: guess too the other game was in like 1978 or something ridiculous without having known that That's my that's my guess. It's not this is not historic. But as far as this season goes, the Bears had nine point eight nine plays per drive in this game, which is the most of any game by any team this season. And that's also if you remember, like they had the DeAndre Swift fumble, which was only like two or three plays into one of those drives. And then the Tyson Bayesian inner Tyson Bayesian interception, which was also only a couple of plays into one of those drives. So like every time they didn't turn the ball over, it was like a 12 play drive.

1:32:07Dave Helman: And most of them scored some amount of points.

1:32:10Robert Mays: How did they only score 23 points? Well, they had a fourth. They had a failed fourth and one on the goal line. And they didn't have that many explosive plays. I will say they got bailed out a few different times in this game. I mean, the illegal hands to the face, I believe, on the screen that was intercepted by Trevandre Sweat. That's one that you got bailed out. There were a couple other defensive penalties. is Tyson Bajan threw two more interceptions that got wiped off. The first one's a free play. That ball's not getting thrown unless there's an offsides. That one, that's not, the idea that that should count in any way, even optically, doesn't make any sense to me.

1:32:46Robert Mays: And then even the third interception that he threw that, I guess it was fourth. The fourth interception that he threw, three of which did not count, was a defensive hold where the player he was trying to throw the ball to absolutely got held. And so there were two, I think, legitimate Tyson invasion interceptions in this game, one of which was wiped off a couple other plays that drives get extended because of defensive penalties. Even when you take all that into account, the just ownership, the bears offense had of this game, essentially from the start with a backup quarterback in again, it's just kind of remarkable.

1:33:22Robert Mays: Like their ability to look like this on offense and just be this efficient this i mean they look like a machine i mean just the ability to run the ball to the degree that they did they ran they gained over five they gained 492 yards of offense they ran the ball for what like 250 again two i thought it was 232 230 they ran the ball for 232 yards and the offensive line is what jumped out to me today the offensive line was excellent in this game the way they ran the ball but also the pass protection just throughout was so, so good. Every skill position player chipped in in some way. Obviously, Mononga is a monster day.

1:34:00Robert Mays: Odunze had a couple really nice moments. Burton and Loveland got involved throughout this entire game. I mean, just the ability to control the game in this way, two weeks in a row with backup quarterbacks playing. And the Jets are the Jets. I think that people are going to look at the logo and be like, oh, this isn't impressive. The Jets have been a solid football team so far this season. And so for the Bears to have this thing in hand, seemingly the entire time and truly just have a handle on the game from the start is impressive. And they've done that two weeks in a row against backup quarterbacks or with backup quarterbacks.

1:34:36Derrik Klassen: I didn't think about this, but you see weird scheduling quirks like this sometime where the Jets have now played three quarters of the NFC North all in a row. They took the Packers to overtime. we talked about how fun the game was against the lions last week and all the cool shit they did in that game and so yeah and and obviously they beat tennessee to open the season like they've been a pain in the ass and the bears the most like scoreline the final score wise it's like the most uninspiring score you've ever seen but the bears just beat the shit out of these guys and like to do that two weeks in a row with quarterback three and quarterback two i'm not like we're not talking about him and you have my attention.

1:35:17Derrik Klassen: I'm not ready to go that far, but like it, it registers with me like that is incredibly impressive and something you should have an eye on for when Caleb Williams is available again.

1:35:27Robert Mays: I mean, that stupid, ugly game against the Vikings is the only reason this team isn't four or no with like some pretty impressive wins on the board.

1:35:35Dave Helman: Well, that's the backup quarterback performances have been good. The one time we saw him play, not against Brian Flores in a rainstorm. They scored 60 points. It's going to be really good when that guy comes back.

1:35:48Robert Mays: I knew the offense could have this sort of gear. And the fact that they played this well with the backup quarterbacks is impressive in an entirely different way. What the defense did today, that to me and what the defense did in the second half against the Eagles, I know the Eagles are kind of unraveling. The Jets, we did the trivia this week. The Jets were top 10 in EPA per dropback coming into this game. and for them to just not be able to move the ball they went oh and seven on third down what the defense dennis allen was doing some funky stuff on third down like some of the pressures that they're sending the way the defense is playing overall i don't know how good they are but four games into the season the bears are fourth in the nfl and epa per play on defense

1:36:26Derrik Klassen: fourth fake stat i'm sorry i can't get there it's all you know what it actually does

1:36:30Dave Helman: entirely driven by what the the Falcons a little bit last year where like you you kind of knew that this was like a little bit made up and not real and that they were having to match your fan manufacture stuff and do a bunch of crazy stuff and like getting a couple of turnovers every now and then the difference between them and last year's Falcons is this team has whatever the Bears offense might be on the other end of it and so if they can actually even if they're fake good and can do some of this stuff and I'm glad you mentioned like Gino and the Jets like the Jets offense has been fine they're a good barometer team the nfl's always got a handful of these at a given time and if you can do that against like what the jets offense has been that that probably

1:37:07Robert Mays: means something what's carried them is that they are number one in the nfl and epa player epa per play on third down and some of that is what happened today and what happened in the eagles game the eagles didn't have one for all the second half and the jets went over today but what the bears some of the stuff the bears are doing on third down is really good like some of the pressure stuff that Dennis Allen is doing. We compared them, Derek, to like the early chiefs with the early Spags chiefs teams. Can they be like that? And so even if they're not fourth in the NFL in EPA per play type good, they were seventh on a third down last year.

1:37:38Robert Mays: They're first this year and overall they're 14th in success rate. This doesn't have to be the sixth best off defense in the league. This has to be like the 16th best defense in the league. And they're doing enough right now.

1:37:49Derrik Klassen: They've allowed the opponents since the Panthers game. Obviously the Panthers got them pretty good not that it mattered but their last three opponents are five of 29 on third down now the question is obviously like the eagles are obviously in hell offensively right now and then it's the carson wentz vikings in a rainstorm and whatever you think about the jets i'm just it's been incredibly impressive especially considering our concerns about the bears defense

1:38:15Robert Mays: i'm okay waiting a little bit to see more i have no idea how real it is i just know that what it's looked like, especially over the last two weeks is like, okay, like this, this is something that you can build on. They blitzed five times in this game. They got pressure on four of those plays and they got clean pressure on four of those plays. Like Dennis Allen is cooking in some of these high leverage moments. Even if I think we still have some concerns overall about the personnel

1:38:40Derrik Klassen: quality on this team, the more important part to me, and maybe the thing that'll keep it from mattering is it just it defies all of my expectations about pro football that you can run for 230 yards with your backup quarterback in the game I mean I know Malik Willis did it for the Packers last year but that's a different story from Tyson Bajan and Case Keenum the Bears have accounted for 20 percent of the 230 plus yard rushing performances dating back to when Ben Johnson got there they've done it four times with Ben as the head coach no one else has done it more twice the rest of the league combined has 16 like it's it's unbelievable how often the bears are just running at will and to be able to do it without your preferred quarterback is it's not supposed to work that way so yeah i don't i don't think the defense doesn't need to be that good so i think it's fair to be encouraged i was hoping they would just hang on when caleb williams wasn't

1:39:34Robert Mays: playing i didn't expect them to be winning these games by multiple scores while he was sitting on the bench it's a nice place to be considering how shitty things felt at the end of week two

1:39:41Derrik Klassen: One thing, one more thing we do have to mention in the spirit of WTF. Of course, this is the game where the Jets break their no interception streak. Yeah, they had four of them. Only one of them counted. Hey, that's one more than counted for the entirety of the 2025 season. So it's a starting point. Yeah.

1:39:57Robert Mays: I mean, again, it's one of those should have stood and test page and did throw one interception that did count the ball security and just the overall turnover questions like that has to get better against teams that are better. But overall, I think you got to be pretty encouraged by what the Bears did. All right, let's talk about what made us feel romantic about football in week four. I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty. I really love when we have players that have been in the league for a while. And for whatever reason, a new play caller happens or the situation changes just a little bit.

1:40:30Robert Mays: And we see that player unleashed and unlocked in a way that they never really have been before. and the guy that is like that for me this year is watching what zay flowers has been for the ravens zay flowers is a good player zay flowers has been a good player for a while for baltimore but the tweaks in his usage this year have made him like borderline unstoppable so zay flowers this season had another he had a huge game today by the way i don't have the stats in front of me i probably should have the stats in front of me for what he actually did in this game

1:41:03Dave Helman: it was all in the first half because that's what he keeps doing i was gonna say first half all

1:41:07Robert Mays: before halftime okay eight catches 118 yards and a touchdown okay on he had 30 routes total so 10 10 targets eight catches 118 yards here's some season-long stats for zay flowers stat number one he's averaging 6.3 yards per route run this year 6.3 best in the league type numbers

1:41:30Derrik Klassen: are usually flirting with four for anybody that's not aware anything over three is offensive player

1:41:37Robert Mays: of the year shit 6.3 yards per route run okay he's been in the slot on 57 of his routes this year per next gen that's it was that's compared to 31 last year so he has been a primarily slot player for them some of that is driven by the fact that they're using more three receiver sets in order to put him in those situations compared to what the ravens used to do but this is obviously a very conscious choice from the Ravens coaching staff to put him in there. He's run 32 routes from the slot this year. He has been thrown the ball on 16 of those plays. So he has a 50 % target rate from the slot. He is averaging 8.8 yards per route run on those plays from the slot.

1:42:20Robert Mays: he's averaging 1.3 EPA per target he's gained a first down on 37 % of his slot routes last year Zay Flowers had 16.3 receiving EPA out of the slot this year he has 21

1:42:41Dave Helman: and he hasn't even played all of these three games by the way he's played three games he hasn't played the entire season to this point

1:42:49Derrik Klassen: he hasn't finished two of his three games and he missed a game with the hamstring injury. Like we're, we're talking an incredibly small sample size. That's the one thing I wanted to note was he's run among, among the guys at the top of the league, because Zay is one of six receivers with 350 yards so far this season, among all of, you know, that company he's run like 60 to 80 fewer routes than all of those guys.

1:43:12Robert Mays: And the rate stats will drop as he plays more, but the vision that the staff has had for him and the way that they were like, this is how we're going to use this guy. And we're going to cook people has been awesome. And you saw it last week against Dallas and they did it again today. His touchdown today, they have him isolated on a linebacker coming out of the slot. The guy has absolutely no shot. He takes it to the house. And then the other awesome play that they ran, he runs like a little sale and up from the slot for a huge chunk gain. Just this. And they, they said it in the summer. I Declan Doyle at one point was like this dude is a star and we are going to I think show people that he is a star and the just crystallized vision they have had for how they want to deploy him and what it has looked like over the first four weeks is awesome stuff like it has been so incredibly

1:44:00Dave Helman: fun to watch I think a lot of it has been the usage I also think a year ago or two years ago you couldn't have used him this way I don't think he was good good enough at some of the things that like requires you to play in the SWAT like I think the way that he tracks and comes back to the ball now is better than it's ever been at any point in his career and I also think the way that he like when he sees grass in front of him as a yak player and goes is better than it's ever been at any point of his career and maybe that's partly fueled by like they're using him more that way in practice in the game plans and so he's getting used to that sort of stuff but I do think that he's gotten better at that stuff that when previous versions of the Ravens tried to do that with him you had some like good moments some bad moments but it did not feel as consistently dominant as it's been especially underneath and then you mentioned that like sale out and up play I thought the ball tracking on that was even really impressive which I think down the field he's always been like the pure vertical stuff has always been a little bit up and down his vertical stuff has always been like he gets to 20 and he snaps off a dig or he snaps off an outbreak or a comeback something like that but the pure vertical stuff like that where he can really go and track it sometimes that's been up and down so the fact that he showed improvement on all of the things that like even two years ago I was like man I just don't know if he's that kind of player that to me is the most

1:45:14Derrik Klassen: impressive part of all of this I and I said this leading into the summer and I I felt better about it when I dug deeper on it but anecdotally I didn't always trust Zay Flowers as like a down the field guy he's just you some of the the drops and the miscues just loom large in the mind but he looks so impressive this year. Like the 52 yarder he had in this game, it's not like the coolest catch you'll see on a, on a Sunday, but just the downfield tracking, like over the shoulder arms extended, it just looks very polished and very advanced. And speaking of that, like when I dug deeper into it and what he did last year, I felt a hell of a lot better about Baltimore locking him up on the deal.

1:45:58Derrik Klassen: They did considering how much time was left on his contract reaction to that

1:46:01Robert Mays: contract coming into the season.

1:46:03Derrik Klassen: Yeah. yeah my leg probably wasn't very happy when i when i remember talking about it with derrick when it immediately happened i was like oh that's that's a lot of money and then i was like okay well he still has two years on his deal and he was actually like top 10 in yards per route run this will probably be fine it won't probably be anything it looks fantastic through a month of the season

1:46:24Robert Mays: they've used him in a way that makes him worth every single one of those dollars and it does really help that quarterback is playing pretty lights out right now. He's back, I would say. The scramble that he had, he tweeted out the play. The scramble that he had in this game. Like just that is a, there is no one in the league for whom the game slows down in the way that it does for Lamar Jackson. His, I want to do something about this at some point this year, like why some quarterbacks are really adept at throwing the ball to the middle of the field and why some are not. And I think some of it is just like spatial awareness.

1:47:03Robert Mays: His spatial awareness is just on a completely different level. Like his ability to feel and understand where defensive players are and where they're going to be when guys are around him, when there's traffic down the field in certain areas he's trying to access as a thrower. Just an unbelievable player. And I obviously gets hurt in this game. It sounds like he's probably going to be okay. They played the Falcons on Sunday night. I believe Jesse Minter said at one point that he probably could have come back in if needed. So hopefully nothing long term for Lamar Jackson, because that connection with him and Zay Flowers has been something to behold this season.

1:47:38Robert Mays: And it is plenty worth being romantic about. All right. That is all we've got for week four. Like we mentioned tomorrow on the hangover. Lions Panthers, Seahawks Chargers and Giants Cardinals. We will be hitting all of those. I know the Vikings are undefeated. I don't still know what to make of them. They beat the, they beat the dolphins today without scoring a touchdown. Yeah. They beat the bucks who were unraveling last week. Like, well, I'm sure we'll talk plenty about the giants. We have a midweek show this week about the Vikings. We have a midweek show this week where we'll hit the Vikings.

1:48:10Robert Mays: So it's that the Vikings talk will be coming. It's just, it's a very weird for now. I don't know what to make of it.

1:48:15Dave Helman: Well, and we can't do dolphins on the hangover every week. Like the whole point of us making some of the changes to the hangover this week is so we don't, or this year. so we don't do the same team every single week the way that we did last year at points.

1:48:26Robert Mays: For now, that is all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you soon.

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