Week 5 Hangover: C.J. Stroud is "f***ing awesome"

0:00Are you the kind of sports fan that wants to dig into the story behind the stats? Then join us daily on The Athletic Live, where we'll be live on YouTube to cover all the sports stories you can't stop talking about.

0:10Robert Mays: On game days, we watch the biggest matchups, live alongside The Athletic's most tapped-in reporters. Or come hang on an off night for an inside look at how headlines happen. We want you dropping questions in the chat, and we'll bring answers straight from the source. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini. Subscribe now on YouTube.

0:32fall doesn't live in just one room it's all around us inside outside wherever we are during this season we can find fall so if fall doesn't live in just one room why should your fragrance with purist whole home scenting one system fills every space the entryway that greets your guests the kitchen where everyone gathers the bedroom where the day finally slows down all automatic all yours. Discover your sense of place at pura.com. Teens spend an average of nine hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full-time job just scrolling mindlessly. We all know how bad scrolling mindlessly is for us as adults.

1:14Think about how bad that could be for teenagers and even younger children. Here's the good news. There's a solution. A company called Gav has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech in steps. Tekken Steps works by providing safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for tweens and teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Bottom line, you don't have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult.

1:48Get them Gab, which keeps them socially connected without social media. Right now, use our code to get the best deal on a kid's phone that will make parenting easier and give you more peace of mind. Visit Gab.com slash football show and use code football show for an exclusive offer. That's Gab, G-A-B-B.

2:07Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays. It's the Week 5 Hangover today. Me and Derek dug into three games from Sunday's slate. chat about the Sunday night game between the Falcons and the Ravens dug into Bengals Dolphins and then chat about Texans Titans and our thoughts about the Marvin Harrison Jr. trade with him heading to the Texans. That's what we got today with me and Derek Klassen. Let's dig into it right now.

2:45Robert Mays: It's the week five hangover. Three games we're digging into today. We're going to hit Bengals Dolphins a little bit later and talk about Texans Titans, but we're going to kick things off as we often do on these Monday shows with the Sunday night football game, chat a little bit about Ravens Falcons for each of these games moving forward. I want to start these conversations just with when you think back on this game at the end of the season, you think back on Ravens Falcons, what is going to be your biggest takeaway from that game? And so as you sit back and think about last night, what would your answer to that question be?

3:18Robert Mays: How are you going to remember this game eight weeks from now? That's a really good question. I do think that this is a game that for a young Ravens coaching staff, for a team that does not have their quarterback who is playing out of his goddamn mind this season, this is the type of game that the Ravens have to make sure that it's a very survive and advance situation against the Falcons team that previous two weeks had been very good. And so the Ravens getting away with a win in a way that sometimes they just had tendencies to lose these games. I think that I'm going to remember that. And then I also, I was really, and I know that he's not going to play center for the remainder of this season.

3:53The way that the interior offensive line specifically handled all the attack front stuff from Atlanta was unbelievably impressive. For you're on, he's what, center four, really? Who's a rookie right guard moving to center. It's his first real start there. And then you have a backup right guard and all of the attack front stunting, getting up the field. Baltimore just handled super clean. And I think if the promise of like, our team is the zone run game, and we can build it all off of that to get the game that they played against the front that's been playing really, really well this season. That to me is hopefully like a, okay, bye, you know, we will remember performances like this later in the season.

4:32Robert Mays: I think those are two things I came away with as well. First thought, I just did my replay video about it. I think Declan Doyle just has it. Oh, definitely. I think he just has it. And there's a lot that goes into that conclusion, but even the stuff that wasn't working in this game and the first half for the Ravens was so frustrating you have a couple drops the balls on the ground it just it was a frustrating half and they there were a lot of missed opportunities in that half but even in some of those moments like this is a really weird example to throw out but there was a play where they were down 7-3 they were at midfield and the Falcons were in a pressure front and the Ravens tried to run the ball on that third and five into like that pressure front.

5:16Robert Mays: And Dorlis just makes a great play. It's kind of standing up Rosengarten in the hole at the point of attack makes the tackle. They end up punting. But even in something like that, you watch the play call and you watch why he's making it. And it's like, there's so much, I can clearly see the intent and the thought and the purpose and why he's doing all the things that he's doing. And even when some of it's not working and for a play caller that's this young, doing it for the first time to have this sort of feel for what he's doing situationally, why he's making the choices that he's making, just having an understanding of the game flow and how he's trying to attack people in the moment.

5:53Robert Mays: I just think it's really advanced and refined for somebody this young doing it for the first time. And I think that was fully on display to me last night. I think that part was important because sometimes when these guys are coming from certain coaching trees, they can hit the bigger picture stuff of what the scheme is supposed to look like and all that stuff. But having a little more of nuance of like understanding, because Ben Johnson does that all the time. It's third and five and you're in a pressure look, buddy. He's just going to cram it up the middle and he's going to try to get those five and six yards.

6:21So the fact that the Ravens are willing to do that and have shown the capacity to do that, I think is promising. I also, literally the first play of the game, they're just like jet play to our best player or to our best wide receiver. Like that, getting him, one, getting him activated on that stuff and just getting your best wide receiver, the ball in his hands on the first play is always nice to just get things jump-started. But then also, if you're the Falcons, now you've got to think about that for the rest of the entire game. They get a 13-yard pop on a jet thing immediately. And now for the rest of the game, you're like, well, if he's ever moving, like, is he going to get the ball again?

6:51What are they going to do off of it? And it's just one of those things that helps you be on the front foot as a play caller. And so I've just been really impressed by what he's done for the entirety of the season. And now to have already kind of passed the having to do it with a backup quarterback against a pretty solid defense check is pretty good.

7:09Robert Mays: even there was a sequence where they tried to throw a throwback pass with Zay where Snoop Huntley was actually open. I guess if Zay had set up and thrown that ball, he was open. It falls incomplete. It gets to be third and 10. And then immediately after that, they were on a screen on third and 10 from plus territory that would have popped for a really big gain if the ball was just a little bit higher. And so again, there was just four or five moments in this game where even on stuff that didn't work, I just clearly understood why they were trying to do it. And then there was plenty of stuff that did work.

7:40Robert Mays: I mean, that sequence where they have the fullback handoff to Justice Hill on third and one that he pops through like 45 yards. And then it's a great, great call. And it's one of those where if it doesn't work, we probably give him a lot of shit over it. But that thing hits so fast in short yardage, it goes for 43 yards, I want to say. And that was the same drive where they have the throwback screen to Derrick Henry, where they're pulling a guard the other way. They influence it off play action like it just for to call it with a backup quarterback this way. And I want to talk about the way Stu Huntley played it, because I also thought he was really impressive just overall in this game.

8:19Robert Mays: I just thought that the plan and execution on offense for the Ravens fell in line with what we've seen from them the entire season. Obviously, when Lamar is in there, you're going to have an unbelievable ceiling. But I think yesterday was proof that even without him in the game, there is a certain floor for this offense that not every team can achieve when their backup quarterback is in the game. And again, not just missing him. You're missing, you know, the interior is in a weird spot, which we talked about at the top of the show. But also you're missing some of your tight ends. And that just doesn't matter.

8:48You're able to get Josh Cuevas, like, activated in the game. He had a couple of catches. And he's like your third or fourth guy who is a rookie. And, you know, getting a rookie tight end activated in that way, I thought was super impressive. The other thing to me, the fact that Devontae Walker is not like an anchor on this wide receiver core, that to me is another testament to this coaching staff. Like he caught, I think he had eight targets all of last season. He already has seven this year, which is not like they're not making him a key part of the offense. But the fact that you don't feel the Devontae Walker snaps in a negative way, I think is really, really impressive.

9:21And so it's just every little thing that this coaching staff is doing. and then you see with the backup quarterback like almost every backup quarterback is dependent on like how well the offense is being schemed around them because they're backup quarterbacks they're not that good and so they need the help and they need not even just in terms of how open are we coaching guys but like how much how well is the coaching staff keeping you on the tracks of like you need to throw this you this this is the timing of it and you could just tell Snoop Huntley was like very attuned to the way that the offense was supposed to function and I thought that that was also really impressive like I every beat of this offense and this coaching staff and the players on it they are one that I want to believe in especially when we when we get the quarterback

10:01Robert Mays: back into it not only was Devontae Walker that's not an anchor he scored a huge touchdown in this game that was a defined positive target for Devontae Walker and I think that the Snoop Huntley performance overall you know it's a lot of stuff that there are quick easy decisions and quick, easy options available to the quarterback throughout this game. But there are plenty of moments where he has to make something happen that's not there. I mean, to me, the best example of this, the touchdown drive in the fourth quarter, it's first and 20 to start that drive. And that play he makes spinning out and finding Zay Flowers for a huge gain.

10:38Robert Mays: And that's if that play doesn't happen, there is a very good chance the Ravens do not win this game. And so even if there were a lot of things kind of being catered to, there are a lot of things catered to him over the course of this game in the way that you have to with a backup quarterback. I thought that overall, he was still really impressive. And he had eight incompletions overall in the game. Two, three of them, I think you can qualify as drops. One of them was tipped at the line of scrimmage. Like even going 24 of 32 still doesn't speak to how sharp he was for most of the day. You just did not feel like, I mean, like you felt like there was a backup quarterback in the game insofar as like they were kind of limited in what they wanted to do, but not so far in the quality of it.

11:21Like, again, I just I thought he played really, really well. And also he handled some of the pressure stuff really well because the Falcons still got into the backfield a decent amount. He did take three sacks in this game, but it just wasn't ever as like catastrophic as I think it could have been, given how well the Falcons have pressure generally, but also did in this game, because there were a couple that like they get into the backfield immediately and like those are plays that could turn into strip sacks or they could just turn into plays that were much worse than they were. And he was able to kind of weather the storm.

11:51Robert Mays: He did it in two different ways. On the final touchdown drive of regulation, the Falcons were playing a lot of soft zone and he found a lot of completions as they were doing it. When we got into overtime, they started bringing a lot of pressures in overtime. They're very distinct approaches from the Falcons defense on those two drives. And when they were bringing pressure on that final drive in overtime, he had multiple different answers. I mean, that third and three flip he has to Andrews to beat the pressure with the ball was really impressive. And then there's a third and six, I want to say, that they do a great job of picking up.

12:24Robert Mays: And that was the play where I was like, man, Emory Jones, well done. He does a great job picking up that pressure. And they get the first down because of it. And so it's overall, I just think, an expression of an offense that is really put together in all of the right ways right now. The interior of the offensive line point is a good one. Like there was part of me watching this, thinking about them giving up a second round pick for Cam Juergens and being like, did we need to do this? Could we survive with this group for the rest of the season? I know that's a short sighted way of thinking about it.

12:57Robert Mays: You probably get better by moving Juana back to guard, even if he's been capable at center. But I do think overall Jones got cooked by, I think, Jared Ivey for a sack in this game. but that was really the only moment where I noticed how banged up the interior was the fact that you had backups playing at center and guard technically for the Ravens in this game because like Jones yeah like the one where he gets beat by Ivy immediately and like Snoop has nowhere to go that one's tough but like Emery Jones like had moments in the run game when they were trying to pick up blitzes like I thought that he was totally fine and so like I probably agree that I think if they didn't trade for Juergens they could totally survive it will probably be better for them especially if you're a serious contender the way that they are but it is a fun thought that like they look good enough that they could legitimately survive taking their rookie guard moving him to center for the first time in his career and they kind of just look fine and better than they did last year like much better than they did last year which the interior really is what killed them last year and so the fact that they're on two out of three backups in a way with their interior now and look so buttoned up is just a far cry from what it looked like people are probably gonna be like well they needed a miracle to come back and win the game how are we heaping all this praise onto the on the ravens offense again there are a lot of frustrating moments in the first half andrews drops the ball at the goal line he then fumbles they dropped a third and three third and four that should have been caught on like a slant talks about that third and five run that is a good call in the moment it gets stuff they have to punt i just think there were a lot of sequences that you get some bad breaks over the course of the game even if the offense is playing well i mean you go back and look at it, the Ravens finished with a 51 % offensive success rate in this game against a Falcons defense that had really been giving people a lot of problems.

14:38Robert Mays: And so even on a day where there were a lot of frustrating moments that the ball doesn't bounce your way, you potentially lose this game on the road, I still felt like the offensive performance top to bottom was very impressive with the backup quarterback. Yeah. Let's talk about the other side of the ball. What are your impressions of what you saw from the Falcons quarterback in this game?

15:01he makes like four throws a game that are really impressive. Like some of the deep outs that they were able to get open, which that is actually one thing I thought the Falcons' offensive infrastructure did well, is like some of the two deep stuff that, or the man coverage stuff that the Ravens were trying to play, they did a really good job of getting like two and three vertical routes into the same area and springing open like some of those deep sail routes or deep crossers and stuff that he loves. I think that there are just certain restrictions to his game that continue to leave me wanting.

15:29like inability to throw over free rushers multiple times in this game he's like dirtying throws because he can't do that he was I think two for 11 with three sacks under pressure because he's just not the best mover and his response against pressure is back up back up back up back up okay I'm just gonna throw it and I think why that becomes especially troublesome for him is he has a low release point and so if you're like just like backing up backing backing up you're still kind of like low release point throwing at defensive lineman in front of you so I think that that is an issue. And then you saw he the first play of the game, they try to run dagger and he's a beat late throws it behind Drake London on the dig route.

16:04And then he just like doesn't throw the middle of the field again. He throws the one touchdown to Kyle Pitts in the red zone against man coverage. And that's it. He just like doesn't try it again. And I think it's just I continue to have these moments and these drives where it's just I feel like I am left wanting for what he is like he feels and I said this coming into season. He's an NFL quarterback, But to me, he feels like watching Jacoby Brissett, which like you can win games with that, but I don't know how much further we're going to develop from that. And I think I still have a lot more I want to see.

16:38Robert Mays: I think all of that's valid. The middle of the field stuff to me is going to be the key moving forward. Because what you're saying with the pressure and just the creativity as a thrower, that stuff is what it is. That's just who he is physically. I don't think there's any real planning around that. There was a play in the fourth quarter. It was a third and five. The Ravens bring like a zero pressure with multiple droppers. And he's got to pop it over the free runner coming off to his right to Bijan. And he can't do it. And that happens a lot. And I also think that's a reason that I think this team should be running.

17:16Robert Mays: They didn't do a ton of it in previous games. They did more of it in this game. I don't think you should be leaning into boots with him. I agree. He had a situation just like that earlier in this game. He can't handle the free rusher. He can't handle it because he can't get the ball around that player. And he isn't a good enough athlete to handle that guy. So both as a thrower and an athlete, he can't handle that guy coming free into his face. And so that's stuff that's just going to be what it is. The middle of the field stuff, though, if he can start to access that more often, I think that there is a real path forward for him being a good quarterback.

17:54Robert Mays: Like I think if both of those things being the concerns that I totally agree with that. If he handles the second one, I think that there's a lot to be excited about. And that's the one where I do think it would be possible with more time on task and just more starts. This is still a quarterback that has started 15 games in the NFL, 16 games in the NFL, and he's not doing it often enough, but he is doing it occasionally. Like that throw to Kyle Pitts for a touchdown. That's the type of thing where if he can start doing that consistently, then I think this becomes exciting. There was another play he had in the red zone where he throws a wrapper out to Pitts that falls incomplete.

18:33Robert Mays: And it's kind of a dangerous throw in that moment in the fourth quarter, I think. I like him making that throw. I don't mind that it's a little bit dangerous. I want to see him let those things go a little bit more. and there's there was another there's a two-play stretch where I think in this game you really saw his limitations in the first quarter the one exactly what we're saying they run a boot I'm like a second and seven and he has to dirt it and because it's into it like a six-man front there's a guy coming free he can't get the throw off and then on the next play it's third and seven and if you watch the play unfolding well all made is a key is is coming open on a crosser and if you as the as everything's kind of as the routes are distributing he's going to have just enough space with Bijan coming out late to be able to fit that ball over Roquan Smith to OZ if he's willing to make that throw he's not so he pulls it down tries to scramble yet takes a short sack and then they have to punt if that ball starts getting thrown I think that I'm excited about what he could potentially be.

19:41Robert Mays: But when you consider all of the limitations, if that ball isn't going to be thrown, that's where I think we're going to have some real concerns because he's just a little bit too boxed in. But with more time, I do think there is a chance that we see those balls getting ripped more often and more frequently than they are right now. I hope so. I just, I think when I think about that specific issue, I can't recall many quarterbacks who got a lot better at that. like I think that that's my problem at specifically like being willing to make the like big boy nails in like throwing through the car wash middle of the field throws and again he doesn't have to do it to the level of like Matthew Stafford or Dak Prescott it just has to get I think one tier better than it is but I do think that that is something that quarterbacks it's not innate necessarily but a lot of guys are like they really want to make those throws or they really don't and you have to do a lot of coaxing to get them to make more of those throws but the fact that he's he's willing to do it every so often that's why i have hope for it like there are guys that there are some quarterbacks that wouldn't even try to make that throw to pits for the touchdown like that just wouldn't be a throw that was on the table for them and so the fact that he's willing to do it every so often because i think and we can have i think there's a it's a worthwhile conversation, whether this is a mental thing or not, like whether or it's just an innate feel thing.

21:06Robert Mays: Like, I do think there is a certain aspect of playing quarterback. And Lamar is to me the perfect example of this, where some of the willingness to access that area of the field, Bryce Young is the way Bryce Young is playing now is another good example of this, where it really is more about spatial awareness than anything. Like it's not being able to see it necessarily. It's truly just about spatial awareness and feel. And so if that is what it is, and it really is innate to that extent, it might be a binary yes or no thing. But if it's a little bit of that, but also a little bit of, as I gain confidence about what I'm seeing, I'm willing to make those sorts of throws.

21:44Robert Mays: And I think that can happen with more time and experience in the course of your career. Then maybe it's something that he develops a little bit better handle on as he moves forward. I do think that might be possible. But if that doesn't happen, then I think the limitations start to rival or outweigh the strengths enough where it becomes a problem. Right. And again, like he's he can stick around for a long time playing the way that he is right now because he I mean, he made like five or six really impressive outside the numbers throws in this game. But like you said, I think if you're going to try to develop him into what feels like a consistent top half of the lead quarterback, I think the middle of the field stuff does has to happen.

22:24And I think even where I get like tough with it is like the pits one. That's like man coverage. Like he's just running with him. And so I think it's like that to me is not thrown through the car wash in zone coverage. And I think that is the what you're talking about, the spatial awareness, the feel of like, I know that if I throw this now, the ball will arrive past the linebackers ear hole, even though he's where he is in my receivers where he's at. I think that stuff is a little bit more of a fuel thing. in. I think there's a little bit of development to be done there, but I think just with Penix, the fact that this was an issue that I had with him coming out of college, and now I think that we've seen him in multiple different offenses where it still remains to me his biggest issue.

23:05Obviously, because it's only his 13th, 14th start, whatever it is, I'm willing to give him, if he does the other stuff that he's doing well enough, like even into next season, I'm willing to give him a runway for it. But that does have to be the thing of like, is this going to be worth our time or not, whether or not he can figure that out at all. And I think that's just always a trait that I think I'm a little bit less willing to believe guys are going to develop.

23:28Robert Mays: It's fair. I will say, I mean, Trenton Simpson is sitting right in the middle of the field when he's willing to make that throw essentially past Trenton Simpson's ear hole on the Kyle Pitts touchdown. And that's why I think that the incompletion that some people would probably say is a dangerous throw is actually the type of thing I want to see him doing more often. Yes, 100%. night he needs to learn what that feels like to make those throws the what you're talking about some of the outside the numbers throws though I mean the drive for them to go up 14-6 the back shoulder crosser he throws to London against man coverage against that like drop eight look is just a disgusting throw the pylon shot to Dotson is that's what he does well that means just a huge chunk deep ball then he throws the touchdown to Pitts there's a third and 11 in the fourth in the third quarter where he comes all the way back to pits at like the end of a progression all the way to the other side of the field like that's the other thing that jumps out to me is that he is willing to do that stuff like the fact that he can go full field and he gets through everything like it's not just that he's a like big armed quarterback where that's the main selling point you do see the processing really jump out in a way that is impressive for a guy that is young he's 26 but he hasn't played a lot of games right that just is inexperienced in the way that he is and so I just kind of always find myself fighting fighting I find myself fighting myself about him because I completely understand why he's getting boxed in by some of these things while also acknowledging that there's so much to be excited about and there really is a push pull between those two things listen any anytime a guy has that kind of arm talent it's easy to chase the dragon i think he's just i don't even know what it is like i think it is the middle of the field stuff i may be just like too dogmatic about like you have to do that or i don't know if and again i think he can be good but like not the quarterback that i'm necessarily betting on the pits play was interesting though because i think what you saw in that play and i think i thought the ravens guys were doing this throughout the game they were a little loose on a lot of their zone landmarks and they were just playing his eyes like the whole game and to his credit, he didn't really make a mistake, like throwing at a linebacker, throwing out a safety, any of that stuff.

25:45And I do think that he's good at that. He doesn't put the ball in harm's way very much. And I do think that that is probably what is going to give him a runway to develop. We've talked about this before. He does not take sacks, really. And he doesn't really put the ball in harm's way very much. And then he makes enough explosive throws that it's like, even if that there are things left on the table, he does enough for you that you want to see it through of like, OK, can we find the next level with him? it's not like you know some quarterbacks where you get like one good play every five and you're like are we holding on to that there's more than that to Penix it's just I think sometimes you wonder how fixable some of his lower moments are the Ravens defense it was a curious performance

26:24Robert Mays: by them because I actually think some of their best moments were when they were bringing simulated pressures like when they were only bringing four is when they were actually speeding the Falcons up and getting some of these negative plays. On plays where they blitzed, they only had a 21 % pressure rate in this game. And that's one of the keys to Michael Penix having good games is if you're not heating him up and he can be comfortable in the pocket, that's where he's able to dice you up. And there were plenty of examples in this game where the Ravens were just leaving him with way too much time.

26:58Robert Mays: Like early in the game, the couple simulators they had, I think on the first two drives, were some of their best pass rush moments in the entire game overall. And Trey Hendrickson didn't play. I understand that. And so, I mean, it's maybe not surprising that they the pass rush wasn't that impactful for the Ravens overall. But I just thought it was curious that the simulateds where they only brought four were their best pass rush moments for the most part. Well, and Penix is good at that because Penix, when he sees some amount of pressure, he's pretty good at like replacing it, getting the ball out, making sure I'm not getting hit by a free rusher.

27:28But I think to the same point, when he sees simulated, he's also just like ball out and like he doesn't want to hold on to it as much. And I think that you see some of that. I will say, too, I felt like the Ravens just got got in a lot of their man coverage stuff. Like every time they tried to play one on one stuff, the Falcons guys were just better, whether that was Pitts on the touchdown or obviously London had a number of plays. Like I did think whenever Penix got his chances to take his one on ones, the Ravens guys were just not picking it up well. Or they had a couple of plays where you're getting some sort of rub route and Marlon Humphrey is just running into a teammate and you have whoever it was like wide open.

28:04And so I did think when they ran into those moments, especially on a lot of the third downs, like the Falcons third down passing was pretty good in this game. Their early down stuff is what was a little bit more up and down, I think.

28:16Robert Mays: Yeah, the Falcons went nine of 17 on third down. Their Ravens went eight of 15 on third down. So you had two teams are checking in about 53 percent conversions on third down in this game. And it did feel that way. The last point that absolutely needs to be made, the discrepancy in the run games between these two teams went a long way in dictating how the game went. The Ravens went 35 for 208 with a 56 % success rate per next gen. Falcons 26 for 110, 25 % success for Atlanta. And you compare that to what their run game has looked like over the last couple games, and it's a pretty big chasm. And that was my big question about it coming in.

28:53Robert Mays: what would the Ravens running defense look like against this team that had kind of been running the ball at will and so there were a lot of two yard gains three yard gains four yard gains on second and ten like that was consistently showing up for the Falcons over the course of this game and like they said like we said they did enough on third down to kind of sustain themselves but they had to do a lot on third down because the run game was not kind of the mindless eating machine that it's been for the most part dude I thought the Ravens front was insane like that's like from everybody too like Travis Jones I think played as well as he has for a lot of the season Nnamdi Matabike I don't know if he looks like all the way back but he looks like a good football player again like there were multiple times where he's just getting into the backfield immediately crossing face on Chris Lindstrom like there was one play where they're trying to run zone away and he just crosses the guard's face instantly and gets into the backfield and him being able to do that they can spike him to create space for Roquan Smith which for Roquan like you have to do.

29:49He's not a guy who comes up and hits people very much. Like you have to get him into some of those runs. I thought they did really good with that using Matavike. That was one of the best games I've ever seen Project Washington play, I thought. And then even to one more shout out for the Raidens defense. I thought for the first month of the season, Malachi Starks just did not look good. He did not look like he was playing fast. I don't know what that was about. Maybe it's new defense. Maybe he was banged up and we didn't know. He was flying around in this game. run defense, pass defense, like he just looked a lot more active.

30:19And they're going to need that if you're going to be some of these, you know, neutral and light box. We have the safety coming down late. I thought he did a really, really good job of that in this game in a way that, again, I just don't know for the first three weeks of the season we really saw from him.

30:32Robert Mays: I came away, even against the backup quarterback, still feeling looking forward to the rest of the Falcons season. I guess that's what I would say. Like I still, I left this game still being excited and interested in this team and what they're going to look like. They looked like a team that ran into a contender, and they're just not quite up to snuff with those teams yet, but they are still like a good competitive football team. That's what that game felt like to me. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and shadow little Bengals Dolphins. Football season has arrived, and with the U.S.

31:04Robert Mays: Bank's Smartly Visa signature card, you earn an unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase, including at the stadium or at home, watching on a brand new TV. Score big with unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase. Visit usbank.com slash smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions may apply. Hey, look, I'm a lucky guy. I get to talk about, think about, watch football for a living with people who I consider my friends. It really doesn't get much better than that. But even with a job like that, there's one, maybe two things that I don't necessarily quite love that much.

31:44What are they? I'm not going to say. The bosses might be listening. But of course, there is that one, maybe two things that if I could push it off, I would. This is probably true for most of us. And if you're a small business owner, it might be payroll. Gusto is here to take that entirely off your plate so it becomes the easy part of your job instead of the dreaded one. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software for small businesses. It's all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. Automated payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers' comp, 401k, you name it.

32:19Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. Save time with built-in automated tools, offer letters, onboarding docs, direct deposit, and more. It's quick and simple to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. Plus, don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash athletic football and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash athletic football. One more time, gusto.com slash athletic football. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat?

32:57The sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants, or the tee you somehow always reach for first. Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe staples made with premium materials like 100 % Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool. The styles are timeless, versatile, and designed to become the dependable pieces you reach for day after day. Their 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweater started to$60, giving you the softness and quality you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag.

33:29And when the temperatures start to drop, as they have, at least where I live, Quince makes it easy to build on those everyday staples with premium down jackets and classic wool outerwear. Versatile layers designed to keep you warm and comfortable all season long. So like I said, here in the Upper Midwest, we are into the cooler time of the year. Fall is here. It's been a beautiful start to the fall. One thing I love about the fall, I mean, I love a lot of things about the fall, for being honest. But one extra thing that I love, my Quince jacket. Obviously, it had to go into the closet for the summer, but now that that's gone, fall is here.

34:01The jacket, it's back out. Feels great. Looks great. Goes perfectly with what I want to be doing in the fall. Not just wearing, but also outside doing in the fall. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. and when quince asks where you heard about them let them know it was the athletic football show it's the best way to support our show

34:33Robert Mays: i don't want to be too reductionist here and i want to preface that before i make this introductory point about this game between the bangles and the dolphins i come away from this game with the bangles 31 points to 131 24.14 epa 50 success rate like just all across the board like solid numbers. I've seen this Bengals game 50 times. Yep. And I've seen this game 50 different times. And I don't even mean that as a negative or a criticism, but I just think it's so funny that we spent all off season being like, the Bengals are going to do this and the Bengals are going to do that. And it's going to be more under center and it's going to be more play action.

35:17Robert Mays: And then when you watch the Bengals offense, We've just arrived back at the exact same point that we've existed in for the past like four or five years with some different nuances and subtleties about what they're trying to do week to week, season to season. Is that unfair? No, it was their highest gun rate of the season. And this to me, they're back at 80 percent, 80 percent, back 82 percent. And this game, I think, was very instructive for that, because I think week five is the point in the season, especially against a Dolphins team that is just not good. You expect to beat them. that to me is like a perfect point of like okay if we really want to commit to this this is a game where we can really test some stuff we can see if this is going to work for us we can really commit to it and they were just like nah go back to the other stuff we'll score 30 points on these guys and get out of here and I'm like if that's what you guys want to be for the sixth year in a row that's fine I'm gonna be honest I'm kind of over it like I just don't think that this offense is going to this offense will win 11 games doing this like they're they have enough talent to do this this feels like they're going to run out of road at some point and it just continues to feel that way like I think for one like there I think there were two incredibly three incredibly frustrating moments to me in this game the first was there's a third and nine that Joe Burrow is trying to throw like a speed out a little bit short of the sticks um and if you're going to be this kind of offense where we're just going to be in gun we're going to throw to our best guys immediately all this stuff you got to be perfect and he just throws it low and behind T Higgins it's not complete and they have no chance.

36:44There's a little bit more of that this year, I feel like, than we typically see from the Bengals offense. You had another moment, the middle of the second quarter, where the Dolphins are playing cover six and they're playing like 12 yards off. Like, they are not giving any sort of space vertically. And Joe Burrow just takes a snap and throws a goalball to Tee Higgins. It's capped the whole way. Like, he's never going to be open. He's never going to get the even you're leaving. It is completely capped and he just throws a balloon. it's obviously incomplete and they just that's their only way to generate explosives is them just chucking it up to those guys and I think that that to me continues to be very frustrating and then the one of the few times they tried to do the under center play action stuff in this game there's about 10 minutes left in the second quarter Joe Burrow hits the his last foot hits at the top of his drop and he is already throwing the check down and I'm like man if if the only time you're trying to turn the other dial, you are immediately checking the ball down.

37:41It's never going to work. And you're just going to run into teams better than the Dolphins late in the season where this stuff is not going to work the way you want. They scored a combined 37 points against the Texans and the Jaguars. And even that's not true because they scored a defensive touchdown, I think, against the Texans.

37:59Robert Mays: I want to say, I think on the day, so he threw six play action passes. It felt like fewer than that. A couple of those are probably in the gun but the three that i can remember the one you're talking about with the check down they threw uh a little slide route i think to eric all for like a 13 yard gain at one point which those are the completions that have worked those are the play actions that have worked for them whenever they've tried because part of the reason there were two arguments for i think for the play action under center play action philosophy and pivot from them one was it would make us more explosive.

38:35Robert Mays: Two is that it would allow us to just have easier completions where every single member of the offense was getting to take a playoff in a way that you can't when you're living in the gun 85 % of the time. The second bucket has provided them with some stuff over the first five games. There have been one or two completions a game where we got a tight end leaking out of the flat or it's a little slide route coming back across where the quarterback just has to flip it to somebody, we can get 12 yards. That has worked. The down the field explosiveness has been non-existent, like non-existent. They just had none of those.

39:08Robert Mays: And this game was another example of it. And I kind of under, I understand what you're saying in the sense that why would the results be different if the approach isn't going to be any different? And I do think if I were a Bengals fan and I was trying to talk myself into why I would be okay living in this world that we're talking about right now, where they've kind of arrived back in a familiar place. The offense is always good, right? The offense is always like a top seven or eight unit. The pass protection is better this year just because the offensive linemen individually are better. Like having Mims playing the way that he's playing, like that stuff is better than it has been at any point.

39:49Robert Mays: They're still 16th in rushing success rate overall, even if they're 31st in explosive run rate, which again is exactly where this team just always has lived over the last few years because it's all rpo it's it's that and it's yeah it's all it's there that we shouldn't be surprised by this so like all that stuff i think the good stuff that you can carry over from season to season is still there and i do think overall some of the relative weaknesses that you've had mostly along the offensive line have been solved and so the argument that this is a team that has hovered somewhere between like sixth to 10th in every major offensive efficiency category can finish in that range again, maybe a little bit higher.

40:28Robert Mays: Maybe they're the fifth best offense in the league over the course of the year. I don't think that's crazy. And then you pair that with a defense where the defense is also part of this. The 2026 Bengals are just the 2025 Bengals with some more defensive talent slapped on the side. And that might be okay. Like that, that actually might be okay. It's a little bit frustrating and maybe a little bit disappointing. And I do think that you're climbing a somewhat steeper hill if that's the place that we're in. But I still think that formula overall might be enough. I think that's the story I'd be trying to tell myself if I were a Bengals fan, because the increase in defensive front talent specifically is so extreme compared to what it was last year.

41:16I'll admit part of my frustration is probably just like I'm tired of seeing the same offense operate the same way that it's been. I get that.

41:23Robert Mays: I had a similar feeling today. And I just don't like watching it. Like it's not even like I just it's not even as cool as it was three or four years ago when it was more explosive, even if it was limited. It's just not even that anymore. And I think that that the explosives now are we're going to chuck it up to them. Yes, that's what the explosives have been. And they and again, it's if you're trying to talk about it hitting the same beats all the time, they did it again this week. It's like they're looking at the numbers on it. It was, it's kind of disheartening. So in this game, five of Burroughs passes went more than 10 yards in the air, five.

41:57Robert Mays: He had 26 attempts of 10 yards or over the one completion that they had down the field was just a chucked up 50, 50 ball to arguably the best offensive player in the league. And when you can do that, It feels silly to ding a team for doing it, but this is just the constant formula week over week is that we have the gun efficient underneath making the right choices, slowly matriculating the ball down the field. And then once a game, one of those two guys is going to dunk on you. And again, that might be enough. It's just familiar to the point where it kind of makes your eyes glaze over a little bit.

42:38Yeah. And it's like, again, those plays are awesome. It's just that if you're going to be an actually scary offense, you should be able to generate explosives some other way, like some sort of schemed up thing, whether it's the run game, whether it's the pass game, whatever it's going to be. And I think by virtue of how they run the offense being so gun heavy, I think it's just really, really difficult to do that. And so I just they're a team that I think, again, they're going to finish 10 or 11 wins. They're going to be fifth or sixth in DVOA by the end of the season. and unless it looks better than it does right now by the time we get to the end of the season they just don't feel like a team to me that is actually scary they're one of those that like the numbers look good and they'll have enough wins and then they go into the divisional and they get smacked by a real contender and i know that it's you know five weeks into the season it feels early to say that but that just feels like the essence of this team right now it's

43:33Robert Mays: looking at the numbers, they're just so right. They average, again, 50 % success rate, 0.14 EPA per play. Joe Burrow had finished with 0.24 EPA per drawback, which is a really good number. The offense averaged 4.9 yards per play. Yes, and like Jaguars game, same thing. Joe Burrow throws for 400 yards. They scored 17 points. They are like cheesing the numbers that seem good, and then they can't score. I mean, obviously in this game, they kind of do because the Dolphins are just not that good. But again, I just, in a world where every other really good offense is continuing to develop, and they're really showing different signs of being something new and adding all these elements, the fact that we're back to the same tried and true stuff with the Bengals, and even in this game, their run game could be kind of efficient, but it was all inside RPO stuff.

44:25And the only reason it was working is because they were able to get Jacob Rodriguez out of the box. And again, I just think that better defenses are going to have better answers for that. It's 2026. Mike McDonald's seen in RPO. Brian Flores is seen in RPO. Like these guys are going to have answers. The last moment I want to make about the offense, as somebody who is heavily invested in Chase

44:47Robert Mays: Brown in the fantasy football leagues that I care about, are we a little bit worried that Samaj P. Ryan seems to be a more effective player right now than Chase Brown? Spashe Pirine is one of those like unkillable players where he just kind of always sticks around and I do think that they value him for what he does in the passing game and if you're going to go back to this world where we are so gun heavy and we are not just doing the pure under center trying to run stuff Pirine does have a lot of value in that sense and I do think that he has Chase Brown in theory I think is more explosive but if your run game is not going to allow itself to be explosive by virtue of how you're running well shit you might as well just grind them down with samaj ap right and get six yards all the time i'm looking at it right now so combined all right the chase brown and samaj ap right in this game both had 12 combined carries into light or neutral boxes six or seven defenders in the box per next gen on those 12 carries Samajah Piran had six successful runs.

45:50Robert Mays: So six of those 12 were successful against six or seven man boxes. Chase Brown had two. And I don't have to do more, have to take a deeper look at it to like actually try to figure out, is this the running backs problem? Is this some situational thing? Is this kind of random? Is it the runs that they're being asked to do? Like, is there actually some signal here in those numbers? But when you look at the numbers, they are what they are. I mean, all the successful runs in this game essentially came when Sirajah Piran was the ball carrier. All the unsuccessful runs came when Chase Brown was the ball carrier.

46:24Robert Mays: Whether that continues, I don't know, but it's something to keep an eye on at the very least, I would say. It's troubling if he was supposed to be your third best offensive skill player. I think I would say that. Like, if you expected him to be part of your difference maker. I will say, for as much as I just, like, destroyed how I feel about the Bengals offense, uh Dante uh Myers is like a real player he's I think he's got some real pop to him and so I think that there's always going to be like the targets are just always going to be funneled to two guys and I think when they get in the red zone they really like Mike Gusecki but he feels like he's more explosive than any of the other third wide receivers they've had in a really long time and he opened this game with like an 80 yard kick return that got them onto the 10 immediately so like he he feels like a nice little uh a nice little get for them I think I think he was like a mid to late round pick so um for all of the bad things i just said about the bangles offense i did want to shout him out let's talk about the dolphins offense malik willis is not playing very well i don't really know what else there is to say about it i mean you look at the box score and that'll tell you with the two picks but you just watch the process down to down it's just all over the place like if you compare it to again obviously the ravens have more talent across the board but you watch like what snoop huntley looked like in that game and just how clean everything about it feels and understanding when he drops back like what the intent of the plays are where he's supposed to be going with his eyes how he's supposed to be playing the plays and then you watch what the dolphins offense looks like and there is just a valley between those two things like it just feels like he's all over the place right now it does and i think if we knew that he was going to be limited coming into this.

48:07He had been a backup quarterback for pretty much his entire career. And even in Green Bay, it was a lot of we're chucking it deep, we're booting, or you're running. And I think that like when you're scheming up a backup quarterback game plan for three weeks, that's really easy to get away with, especially when you're Matt LaFleur, who's proven he can do this and you have a Packers team that is just way more talented than what the Dolphins are running out right now. And I would say that I think part of the issue with the Dolphins is their deep passing game overall. It's just not very good. And I think if you're not going to have that with Malik Willis, then the rest of it is just going to fall apart.

48:38And I don't think all of that is Willis. Like the first big deep shot they try to throw in this game, Malik Washington is running like a deep crosser that kind of converts into like a wheel route on the opposite sideline. And he runs up towards the pylon, but he's like looking over both shoulders. He doesn't know where the ball is supposed to be. And that's one where I'm like, I think if he just like hauls ass and runs to the pylon, that's a completed touchdown. And so you've just got chemistry issues with a receiver core that is a lot of young guys have not really played with this quarterback before and so I think you see that kind of bleeding into this thing and then again I think just their down-to-down stuff is not as good as you want and I would also say and this is also partly credit to the Bengals defensive line the Dolphins offensive line just I don't think look very good in this game for a lot of parts of it yeah and I mean

49:24Robert Mays: the right tackle is going to be a problem all year but the left tackle had his issues in pass protection in this game like it it's an it's a time and I went out for like the second half like they were missing a lot it's a group that we knew coming in wasn't going to be very talented and they were going to have to try to scrape by and you're really gonna have to piece together the passing offense and I think the plan and just the coaching and just everything about it was going to have to be so pristine for them to even really have a shot and the fact that it doesn't look like that and the quarterback feels like his head is spinning a little bit on top of the fact that you're at a talent deficiency in every single game you have results that look like this like I it's five weeks new new play caller new quarterback so many new pieces you don't want to make any sweeping or final proclamations about what the falcons are or what the dolphins are going to be but from everything i've seen so far it's just hard to imagine it not continuing this way and and them leaving this season with a win two wins and picking number one in the draft and that being the reset moment for the franchise like i think we're just kind of headed in that direction Yeah, which we try to talk ourselves into the optimistic case of it being a team that can win three, four games, and they're more exciting than this.

50:39But this was probably always the most likely outcome. And I will say credit to the Bengals defense for I still don't know how good they are. But if you're going to be at least average and competent, you should make the bad tanking team look like a bad tanking team. And they did. Like Jonathan Allen was awesome in this game. Dexter Lawrence put Savanea in the ground on one of those plays. I thought that that was super impressive. Boy, Imafe had his moments. DJ Turner, I thought there was there was one play in the late first quarter where Chris Bell is like in a tight split and he's running a deep over.

51:11And DJ Turner does the thing where you start to play on top of the crosser, but he like lets it cross his face, like snaps behind him and then just undercuts and sprints to it. To have the athletic ability and like the just wherewithal to be able to make a play like that. And he goes and breaks it up like that was super impressive. So like they've got guys who are playing well on that side. I think you still want to see what the linebackers and safeties look like against good offenses. But the fact that half of the defense, I think, does look pretty promising, especially in a game like this, and you feel how dominant they can be against bad teams.

51:42That was pretty promising.

51:45Robert Mays: It's interesting that it's been two games now, but they moved Dax Hill to the slot full time again. And Ivy's playing outside. And so they're still trying to piece together what the back seven is going to be over the course of the season. And I'll be curious, again, like you just said, what does it look like in the long term? Because the front, I feel good about. I mean, that was from the moment the season started, essentially, you watch the way the front was playing. You're like, all right, this is easily the most improved position group in the entire NFL. It will probably be enough to carry the defense through the season, even if there are some inconsistencies on the back end.

52:18Robert Mays: But how that group settles in the back seven, that's the number one thing I think you have to keep an eye on as you try to adjust your expectations for what the defense is capable of over the course of the season. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat a little Titans Texans. So me and my family, we live in the suburbs of Chicago. And one thing I love about the cluster of suburbs where we live is that while there are a lot of similarities among them, there are also enough differences to make each one feel unique. And those differences are largely driven by the small businesses that inhabit those towns, whether you are in one, another, the one over there, they each have enough of their own flair to make them all feel unique while they're all right on top of one another as well.

53:03Being able to shop at those small businesses, pour into the suburb that we live in, but also pour into our neighbors as well, it really just feels good and makes it feel even more special being at home. With FAIR, it's easy for independent retailers to stock products from over 100 ,000 unique brands worldwide. It's perfect for planning inventory for the holiday season. We were just in one of those small businesses I was talking about a couple of days ago looking for a birthday gift for one of my daughter's friends. She's turning six. And so it was great to go into this toy store and be able to find so many different things from big retailers while still supporting this small business in our town.

53:37By connecting retailers with over 100 ,000 unique brands, Fair gives small and local businesses a platform to thrive. They've got curated wholesale products for home, apparel, beauty, food, and more. Fair reduces the risk of testing new products with analytics and free returns on first orders with every brand. So far, Fair has given more than 700 ,000 retailers access to over 100 ,000 brands. Sign up today and get 50 % off your first wholesale order up to$100 at FAIRE.com slash TAFs. That's FAIRE.com slash TAFs. Terms may apply.

54:15This episode is brought to you by Onnit. You know those days where your schedule is packed to the brim? You're jumping straight from managing work deadlines to squeezing in a workout, running family errands, and trying to handle a million things all at once? When you're deeply engaged in a busy day, staying in that zone can make all the difference. That's where Onnit's AlphaBrain comes in as a daily nootropic formula designed for daily cognitive support. It supports cognition, memory, attention, focus, and mental clarity while you're tackling your daily tasks. It supports alpha brain wave activity, helping you tune out distractions, get into the zone, and support that optimal flow state when you're deeply immersed in an activity.

54:52It supports quicker reaction times and relaxes and supports alpha wave activity during normal, occasional stress. If you're ready to support your concentration and focus throughout your demanding days, check them out. Shop now at Onnit.com. O-N-N-I-T dot com.

55:12Are you the kind of sports fan that wants to dig into the story behind the stats? Then join us daily on The Athletic Live, where we'll be live on YouTube to cover all the sports stories you can't stop talking about.

55:23Robert Mays: On game days, we watch the biggest matchups live alongside The Athletic's most tapped-in reporters. Or come hang on an off night for an inside look at how headlines happen. We want you dropping questions in the chat, and we'll bring answers straight from the source. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini. Subscribe now on YouTube.

55:49Robert Mays: Before we get into the game, we were saving this conversation for the show, knowing we were going to talk about the Texans and the Titans. What do you think about the Texans trading a second round pick for Marvin Harrison Jr.? Okay, I joked about this before we went live on Sunday. and maybe this is partly because I think I still just believe in the Texans overall there is like a kernel of me that believes that the power of friendship will heal Marvin Harrison Jr. like I do kind of believe that and I don't really think it's just that I do think that there is some element of obviously Harrison himself is culpable for how bad things just went in or how up and down things were in Arizona he had nice moments but it was just very inconsistent but I do think that there was a clear like they did not know exactly what they wanted to do with him at any point and I do think that there's some element of you get him in a room with the quarterback who helped make him look like a superstar in college he's going to be like I know what Marvin likes I know where the ball is supposed to be I know when he's going to be open and I think there's another element of Marvin Harrison is going to know how my quarterback plays the timing all this stuff like I and he now he doesn't have to be the guy anymore you have Nico Collins you have a top 10 receiver in the NFL already.

56:59And that I think that there's a little bit more that they can kind of play off each other. And even still, like, Kayshawn Booty's been nice for them. Like, I kind of believe, man, I think that this is actually going to be okay.

57:10Robert Mays: All right, I have a couple of responses to that. One, he didn't have to be the guy now when he was in Arizona. Michael Wilson is not Nico Collins, though. There's a different level of gravity. But the role that he's being asked to play within the offense, Trey McBride is there too. Like, he already was in terms of the hierarchy of the pass catchers, like third in the pecking order, and it still wasn't going well. And so that's why I have some reservations about that. I agree that Nico Collins is a true, like true number one. And then he really does get to slot in as just a complimentary piece.

57:46Robert Mays: But I would make the argument that he was already a complimentary piece in Arizona and he wasn't complimenting anything that well. It was still going very poorly. The other part of this, and that's one. Two, if he's going to be a complimentary piece, a second round pick for a team that's one and four is a lot to give up for a guy like that. That is a lot to give up for a player where the selling point before we even get into this is that, well, he doesn't have to be the best pass catcher on your team. I mean, I guess, but if he lifts the offense to a point that they feel like an offense that can win in the playoffs, I don't really care if he's the best or second best player on the team.

58:27That to me is worth a second round pick if they feel like they can get there. And if that feels weird when you look at the team, that's one in four. But I think we still believe in this defense and this offense already is like 11th in DVOA. They're not a bad offense. Like they are probably closer to being something serious than we believe. And that's kind of a naughty conversation too, because the run game still sucks. And I don't know if you can really be like, I don't know throw the ball but if they are trying to legitimately give themselves a chance if they can get a receiver who is like a b minus wide receiver two and kashaun booty can be this like third explosive piece for you and they've got all the tight ends now i'm like second round feels like a lot but if that ends up being picked 57 i don't really care my other big thing when it comes

59:15Robert Mays: to just whether it's worth it to make a swing like this is just how the roles shake out in the long term and jayden higgins is going to be back next year and i think jayden higgins is a pretty good player and if you're giving up a second round pick for a guy he should be part of your long-term plans and so when i think about a receiving for this year specifically i get it in part because now booty becomes like a true role player in a way that he's not right now you're having to rely on him more than that and so if you can slot marvin harrison in and you have like a true x receiver with Nico. And now Marvin Harrison becomes a guy that is like a Z move around piece.

59:55Robert Mays: You're using him on more crossers and just middle of the field stuff than the Cardinals were using him on. And you can kind of unlock the things he does best. They start using him in the way we thought Arizona might coming into the season. It gives that a way to get more out of him for the 2026 Texans specifically. I can get there. Like, I actually do think that makes sense for the 2027 Texans. how does Marvin Harrison how do Marvin Harrison Jr. Nico Collins and Jaden Higgins all fit into the same receiving core I mean I think to me Marvin Harrison is like the move Z Jaden Higgins and Nico can both play X and I think that you can kind of move those guys around in and out of the slot I think that that's the value of especially a guy like Jaden Higgins they don't want to be an 11 personnel team all the time which I do think makes or they shouldn't want to be which I think makes things interesting and I would say the other part like what do you do with Jalen Noel then and And so I do think it makes the wide receiver room crowded.

1:00:48But I think if their idea is that we've always had this sort of player in Xavier Hutchinson, and now Marvin Harrison Jr. is just like super Xavier Hutchinson, which I realize does not sound like very high praise.

1:01:01Robert Mays: A second round pick. Right. It does sound like a second round pick. But like that role is in the offense. It exists in the offense already. And if he can just be like a supercharged version of that, I think that that can be worth it. We talked about this coming into the season. I think they were excited because Noel was hurt all of camp that they were seeing Jane Higgins play in the slot and they really liked what he was giving them in there. And so if you get to a place where you have Nico is your ex Marv is your Z Jane Higgins is playing inside more consistently. It's a weird trio of players slotted into those three roles because I think coming into the league, people thought all three of them would just be like very traditional X receivers, but I could see it potentially shaking out.

1:01:44Robert Mays: It's just a set of, like, it's just a bunch of stuff to consider and juggle that I never would have imagined. Like when I was thinking about the Texans and what is holding back the Texans and what could potentially get the Texans offense back to a place where we can really maximize the season. Marvin Harrison Jr. is just not the piece I would have thought about getting them to that place. And so I don't really know how I feel about it. I think it's incredibly rich. I think you're paying for what his draft capital was, not what he has been so far. And I think it's kind of a weird fit. Do I think it can work out?

1:02:21Robert Mays: Yes. But I think that's those are most of my thoughts and feelings about it. And I think all of that is fair. I do think I'm probably a little bit higher on the trade than most people would be. And maybe that's just me to like being too in the bag for what his previous draft status was rather than what he's been. but I really do think that there's something like with the particular issues that Marvin Harrison has had something about getting a quarterback that he we know he has chemistry with there is something about that that feels like the power of friendship like I there is something about that that I do think that can actually work especially if he's now not going to have the again the stress of like he's got to be the wide receiver one which again in Arizona he like kind of lost that anyway but now in Houston you know like nobody even expects that of you because they have Nico

1:03:09Robert Mays: I'm excited might be strong. I'm intrigued by how this will work out. I'm looking forward to seeing what it looks like in practice. And I think a big part of that as we transition to this game, the quarterback for the Houston Texans. Sensation. Looks awesome. Let me do this. How many quarterbacks right now through five weeks are you positive are playing better than him? Like positive wouldn't even think about it. I hate playing this game. I think that there's like three. I, maybe four. I think Patrick Mahomes. I think Patrick Mahomes. I think even Josh Allen for some of his silly moments. It's him.

1:03:50I think even Lamar Jackson is a weird one, not because of what he's been on the field, but just he has missed time. So like that one, I think just makes it a little bit. In terms of who's playing the best.

1:03:58Robert Mays: I think Lamar is playing the best of all of them. Agree. He's just one that like, if I was voting for all pro right now, I don't know if I would vote Lamar just because he's missing as much time as he has. But like when he's on the field, he's been incredible. And then I think you have two maybe cases with Brock Purdy and Trevor Lawrence. And other than that, I think it's CJ Strat. He's like, yes, I yeah, yeah, I think it's Mahomes, Allen, Lamar, and then maybe is for Brock Purdy and Trevor Lawrence. That's it. Everyone else. I don't think that's wrong. Yeah, yeah, I don't think that's wrong. He was.

1:04:34Robert Mays: he's showing you all the things you want to see. I mean, I think that's the most important thing to me is that the purest talent as a passer is like fully on display. Like he's making four or five throws a game where you're just reminded of, just as a pure thrower of the football, how incredibly talented he is. That's been all over the place. And to me, how fast he's playing, how cleanly he's seeing things, the processing. Like you watch the way that he played yesterday and the idea that before the season we were kind of hemming and hawing about whether this would be a guy that's worth extending or, you know, do we did the Texans have a CJ Stroud problem?

1:05:14Robert Mays: Like it just feels silly to think back on that when you look at what he was yesterday and what he's been for most of the season. A good chunk of it coming without Nico Collins and Jaden Higgins. Exactly. And I think what's funny, too, is I think him not getting the contract this offseason, there was some of like, oh, did Houston really want to pay him? I think it really was more CJ being like, I know what I'm worth and I'm going to go prove it. And I think that he is very obviously doing that. Like, I know the team is one in four, but he is playing so out of his mind. And it really is everything.

1:05:44Like, I think that he's not only returned to the level that we saw his rookie year or at times in like his, you know, when he's been at his best. He is better. Like, he is better. He's cleaner. that's what I mean about the processing

1:05:56Robert Mays: the way that he's seeing it is just much more advanced than it was when he was a rookie which makes sense you're three years removed from that he was a very young player at that time and now you're in year two of this system he's a he looks better right now than he looked when he was a rookie absolutely he does the last two points to make about this just in terms of how well he's playing packing order all that stuff I would throw Dak and Bryce Young are playing extremely well like those are the two other names i would throw out just in terms of guys who've looked really good this season but if you're trying to make a group of like eight players that have played exceptional quarterback for the first five weeks up for the most part cj stroud is absolutely part of that list 100 well but that's that's why i framed it as like positive where i really think the only guys i'm positive or better are the three the three-headed dragon of superstar mvp guys like other than that he really is that in that next mix of like he's just playing so far out of his mind and I think what I loved about this game is you saw some of the just nuance to quarterback play like the first the first play of the game uh Nico Collins is running like a 12 yard stop route to the right hand side and the way that Stroud goes through his drop back he is like eyes straight down the midline so that he can hold the hook player in the middle and then he throws it to Nico Collins' outside shoulder, knowing that the corner is playing on top inside leverage.

1:07:22And I'm like, man, that is just a really, really good quarterback play. And then there was another play with about five minutes left in the first quarter. They're running like a little play action with Collins coming on a drift route from the right side. And then I think it's Hutchinson on like a deep hinge route from the left-hand side. And he goes to Nico Collins first on the right-hand side, but you can see the way that he like resets and backs up and buys himself space in the pocket while remaining so ready and springy to throw. And as soon as Hutchinson starts to flip his shoulders, balls out right on him.

1:07:54And it's just like the process, the nuance, how explosive he is as a thrower, he's doing everything. And then he had like four plays outside of the pocket in this game that were really impressive. Like he's just, every week, man, he just blows me away. He's playing so, so well right now.

1:08:10Robert Mays: That, there was a two-play sequence, that play you're talking about and that deep comeback to Hutchinson was the second one where it's exactly what I'm talking about, where it's a combination of just pure quarterback ability and then refined quarterback stuff. The play like right before that, or like one of the plays right before that on that drive, there's a third down where he throws just like a beautiful crossword adult and Schultz, which that to me is an example of that's the pure talent as a passer type thing. And then the refinement processing type stuff is him getting all the way back to Hutchinson on that play on time with anticipation.

1:08:41Robert Mays: Like when you combine those two things, and it's not just a one-off, Like those aren't the only flashes of those two traits that we saw. We're seeing them over and over and over again this year. And it's just, it's a really exciting place to be. The problem is so much of the rest of the offense continues to be just insanely frustrating. Like their inability to move the ball on the ground, all of the penalties that they're taking. I just don't know how I should feel about this group in the long term. Like there's part of me that because the passing game looks as dynamic as it does, the quarterback looks as good as he does.

1:09:17Robert Mays: Nico Collins is back. When you throw Marvin here, whatever you think of the price, they're going to have more talent at the pass catching spots. Part of me wants to be really bullish on the offense as a whole because of all of that. And then I think about just some of the bones of it and what it's built on and how inconsistent and inefficient and ineffective a lot of that still looks. and I'd struggle to figure out where I should land on the group overall. I do still feel like they're going to have a limited ceiling if the run game is going to be what it's going to be. I think, though, the offense, even for as bad as the run game was last year, the offense was fine last year until the bottom really fell out with Nico Collins misses time, Dalton Schultz, I think, misses time, the offensive line gets more banged up and falls away.

1:10:01And until the bottom really, really cratered out for them, Stroud was playing pretty well for the most part, and they could keep up in these games and let the defense win it for them. So I think the formula now is, if we assume the defense can get back to some level of they can win games for them, and I do think that that's absolutely possible. I kind of do think that unless the bottom really falls out again, like two offensive line injuries, Nico misses time again, I kind of think so long as they have enough of a floor around CJ Stroud, he can play well enough to keep them in a lot of these games, And I don't think he's going to spiral the way that he did, obviously, at the end of last season.

1:10:38Because, again, I think a lot of that was, you know, he's getting into his own head and stuff like that. But the team was just horrendous. Like, by that point in the season, especially in the playoffs, the team was just not good. And I do think even if they have their issues now, the floor for the offense is a lot higher with the talent that they have right now.

1:10:55Robert Mays: Yeah, I think he's just he's playing even better than he was last year. The offense was pretty good last season. We talked about this a lot in the offseason. Before the playoff catastrophes, they were 12th in the paper dropback when he was on the field last year. They were an above-average offense, and that was with him playing pretty well. He's playing better than pretty well right now, and the rest of the circumstances. It almost reminds me a little bit of the conversation we had about the Bengals, where the Texans are just the same. The Texans are just the same team. It looks different, but it's the same story again.

1:11:29Yeah, yeah.

1:11:30Robert Mays: The same team they were last year. We did all of this stuff all offseason where we made all these additions low on the offensive line and the run game is going to be better. And we have all these tight ends and we're back in a place where the entire offense is just based around how good CJ Stroud and Nico Collins can be. And then you have the defense. And I do think that Nico Collins or I do think CJ Stroud is playing better than he was last year. And so you can talk yourself into the results and the overall team being better. but we are in a very, very similar spot to the one where to the exact same place that we were for most of last season.

1:12:05It really does feel like we're, we're pretty much back in the same spot. And at least the run game is, is, is bad. At least like last year, it did really feel like they were truly the worst in the NFL. They at least like have had more moments. I feel like this year. And then the other thing is that Houston team from last year, I still do think they were good enough to win the Super Bowl if Nico Collins doesn't get hurt. It would have been ugly and they would have needed some weird games, obviously, but like they could have done it. And I really do think that if he can be healthy, because like I will say Nico Collins is such a cool expression of I think right now in the NFL, the eight or nine teams that have like a true X put him on the outside receiver.

1:12:47Those guys are such load bearing pieces for their offense. And the fact that Nico Collins is one of those guys and they have one that does feel like a little bit of a leg up in where the NFL is right now.

1:12:58Robert Mays: I actually think that's another layer to the Marvin Harrison Jr. trade is that Nico Collins has struggled to stay healthy. And so to give yourself a little bit of insurance, and obviously Marvin Harrison Jr. isn't Nico Collins. We know that. But to give yourself a little bit of insurance of a player that we can kind of credibly rely on to be like a bigger piece of the passing offense than Kayshaun Booty or Xavier Hutchinson. I do think that should be part of the thought process where even if there's a little bit of redundancy and we're figuring out how it's all going to look in a crowded room, protecting yourself and giving yourself a little bit of insurance when Nico has missed that much time and is that load bearing, that's a worthwhile consideration.

1:13:39Yeah. So I just, I feel dumb being excited about the one in 14 that still can't run the ball, but I don't know, man, I still like this football team.

1:13:48Robert Mays: So a big part of this, right, if we're trying to talk ourselves into the Texans, is the defense being a top three game swinging unit. They played the Titans yesterday, but a week after everyone was talking about the sky falling in Houston based on the way that they played against Dallas, what was your impression of what you saw from the Texans defense yesterday? I thought they were better. I think the front looked amazing, which I mean, the front really has not been the problem for most of the season anyway. I think in the back end, they're still dropping a couple of coverages, but I think that you saw that having Aziz Alshair, I think did clean some stuff up.

1:14:22I honestly think though, especially for the first half of this game, I just don't think the Titans played well on offense. I don't think Cam Ward was seeing it very well. I don't think that he was accurate. I just don't think that he played a very good first half of football. And by the time you get to the second half, there are three scores behind. And at that point, it doesn't really matter what they were able to do in the second half. So this actually felt more to me like, and you know, I think you still have to be a pretty good defense to take advantage of all this stuff, but this did feel more to me like the Titans offense just kind of falling on its face.

1:14:53Robert Mays: It's kind of the same old story, man. I don't really know what else to say at this point. A lot of Cam word games feel really similar right now where there are stretches where they're completely lost, where it doesn't, we talked about this, like what is the purpose of this play? What are you trying to accomplish? What is he supposed to be seeing? And you don't have satisfactory answers to any of that. and then there's a there are a couple drops mixed in there where he has like a ridiculous rip throw over the middle of the field that wandel robinson can't hang on to that's a consistent feature in all of these and then there are three or four throws he makes over the course of the game you're like holy shit that's an impressive play like it's they all kind of feel the same right now and again that may feel a little reductionist but i don't think that's unfair to say like that's just kind of where I am with this group.

1:15:44A hundred percent. And like, he's not playing his best ball right now. And I think that you would hope ideally for a young quarterback is that you have enough good scheme, good players around him that when he finally has those drives and those stretches where it's coming along, that you're not squandering it. And that's just not where this team is at right now. Like, again, I think in the first half, a lot of the issues were on Cam Ward. There's a third and three inside the 10 where he just doesn't even give Io Manor a shot at a fade ball, like at all. Like he just throws it out of bounds. early in the second quarter there's a second and five they have like a weak choice route that is wide open at the sticks and he just turns it down and scrambles to his right and he ends up making a throw that converts the sticks to Wondell Robinson but it's like we just don't need to make it that difficult because then you're living in chaos for for really no reason they have a rollout play where they're running like a flat corner smash concept and he's two steps late throwing the corner and it's closed and Jake Hansen gets a hand up on it like he he did not play well I think in the first half and then you get to the second half he has the throw to Wando Robinson over the middle that you mentioned where he can't hang on to it there's a deep stop where Chimiri Dike just like falls as he's turning around on the stop route and he isn't able to catch that and then the deep ball that he throws to Tate it's a 65 yard ball in the air that's like a smidgen under thrown but Tate just like loses it in the air and overruns it it's good enough it was good enough when you're throwing it 65 yards in the air buddy if you can get it to the end zone that's a good throw and Tate just like loses it and can't make a play on it and so it's like when you finally get him making his plays the other guys are failing around him so it and that's not to excuse him again I do not think he played well in the first half but you would hope that a young quarterback gets some help when he starts to have it come around and he's not getting that either so it it really does feel like it's everything for this Titans offense we talked about we wanted to talk about this game in part

1:17:34Robert Mays: because the Harrison trade and just what we saw from the Texans offense. This is unfair. I kind of just want to not talk about the Titans for like six weeks. And not because it's not fun to watch them or not because they're bad. I just feel like at this point, we're not getting a lot by doing the Cam Ward evaluation with a new offensive system every two weeks in the middle of like before the halfway point of the season. Like I just, there's really, I think we just need to let this thing breathe. Because at this point, there's just no value in trying to like figure out what he is every single week in these circumstances.

1:18:14Robert Mays: Like let you see what the rest of the season looks like. Get to the back half of the year, try to get an understanding of where he is, what that means for the team, what that means for the franchise, what that means for the offensive staff, all of that stuff. It has been ugly so far, but we've learned so much about the, just how wrong it is to like slam the door on all of these guys that it's we can't do that yet and I think we should do that yet but it it we're in a frustrating place where it just again seems like every two weeks when we do this we're watching the same game over and over and over again and if that continues into December there's probably a conversation to be had but right now I just feel like we're kind of in like a weird frustrating holding pattern with Cam Ward and the Titans offense overall it really does feel like it's the same game if it was like because you have some of these moments where players are going through stuff or you know it's a new coaching staff trying to figure out where every game feels like different problems like honestly in some ways a lot of the chargers like offense stuff does feel like a different problem every week and I think that that in some ways is worth talking about the Titans game it's like you could swap out the jerseys in the box score and it doesn't really matter it feels like it is a lot of the same stuff I'm open to being suppressed, but at this point, it's not really happening.

1:19:29Robert Mays: All right. That is all we've got today. We will be back tomorrow. If you want to check in with the YouTube channel or the podcast feed, our Monday night recap will be available. We'll be available to you. Rams bills is a good one. Very much looking forward to that for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

1:20:20Robert Mays: One all-in-one product designed to make supplementation easier. The day pack supports cognition, focus, and cellular energy production. At night, the night pack helps you wind down and supports a calm, relaxed state. Less time managing your supplements, more support for your day and night. Shop Total Human now at onnit.com. 500 orders a month was manageable. 5 ,000 is madness. Embrace intelligent order fulfillment with ShipStation, The only platform combining order management, warehouse workflows, inventory, returns, and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does in one.

1:20:59Robert Mays: Automate fulfillment and rate shopping to ship up to 15 times more with up to 90 % savings. Go to ShipStation.com and use code AUDIO to try ShipStation free for 60 days.

1:21:13As a fitness coach, my active psoriatic arthritis can slow me down. With SkyRizzy, Rizzin Kizumab RZA, I'm treating my skin and joint symptoms so I can keep moving.

1:21:23Robert Mays: SkyRizzy, a prescription-only injection for adults, helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. And for those who have plaque psoriasis, 90 % clearer skin is possible. With SkyRizzy, there's no daily dosing. It's just four doses a year after two starter doses. Don't use if allergic to SkyRizzy. Serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. Thanks to SkyRizzy, there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement.

1:21:55And that means everything.

1:22:01Ask your doctor about SkyRizzy. Visit SkyRizzy.com or call 1-866-SKYRizzy to learn more.