Week 5 Preview: The first 49ers-Seahawks tilt of the season highlights the slate

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1:29Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mayes. Today, it's the Week 5 preview. Two games of the week, we hit Rams, Bills, and Niner Seahawks, some bangers of headliner games in Week 5. Dug into one thing from a couple other games, chat a little bit about the Eagles season and where that is headed, a little bit of Lane Johnson celebration, whole bunch of stuff on the week five preview today. Let's get to it with me, Derek and Dave right now.

2:10Robert Mays: It's the week five preview. A lot of good stuff to dig into today. We've got two games of the week. Got a couple other newsy bits. Chat a little bit about the Eagles, a little bit about what's happening with the Broncos play calling situation. A lot of stuff to chew on today.

2:24Derrik Klassen: It's been a wild week for unexpected news.

2:27Robert Mays: I mean, in mid-season news, there's been a lot of bangers over the last 48 hours.

2:32Dave Helman: Does Sean Payton taking back play calling count as surprising news?

2:37Robert Mays: Let's call it notable. Let's call it notable news. Stuff that the type of news you don't always get heading into week five. That's how I'll frame it. Is that better?

2:47Derrik Klassen: Yeah, I think that that's a little bit more fitting. Two huge news items. So the other one, and we'll talk about it, Lane Johnson retiring. hearing one is kind of even even knowing lane said this was going to be his last year you weren't ready for it to happen of course not so shocking and then you hear the payton news and you're like well yeah okay like we knew we we had an idea that that might be coming let's dig into our

3:06Robert Mays: first game of the week here 49ers at seahawks really looking forward to this one uh doesn't take a lot of explanation as to why this is a game of the week i think right now you can make a pretty solid argument that the niners have been the best team in the nfl over the first four weeks when you look at a multi-year period and you take everything into account, still think you would probably be in the right to say that the Seahawks are the best team in the NFL, just with everything that we know and banking last year combined with this year. And so it doesn't take a lot to sell me on this one.

3:38Derrik Klassen: And with the way it went last year, too, I'm so excited for the renewal of this, where, you know, I mean, the 49ers won that great game in the season opener, and they've been up until last year had been the more consistently successful team. And by the end of the year, you were like, oh, man, Mike McDonald's got Kyle Shanahan's number, doesn't he? And so to see what this looks like with the Niners rolling and, you know, some of their new pieces contributing, I was going to say healthy, not that's not really still a thing, but maybe healthier looking than we hoped. Either way, I'm I'm excited for the renewal of this one.

4:13Derrik Klassen: I think that's a good place to start.

4:15Robert Mays: The idea that for the most part, I mean, Mike, Mike McDonald has had Kyle Shanahan's number in a way that very few defensive coaches do. And so, Derek, I think the entry point I'm interested in here is, is there a reason to think that this is going to look different for the Niners offense than it did over the final two matchups from last year where they really got dominated by Seattle? Seattle controlled those games on that side of the ball.

4:38Dave Helman: I think it can be a little bit better. You know, I think the offensive line is playing better right now than it had last year. You have Mike Evans, who does not feel 100 % healthy, but still feels like a nice middle of the field presence, which we can talk about in a little bit. I still think the way that the Seahawks play defense is perfectly suited to not let the 49ers do what they want to do, because the 49ers rushing offense is all about how can we create space in the C-gap, whether that's with motions or they're shifting to it, they're flipping formations, whatever they're going to do. How do we get that to pop?

5:10Dave Helman: it's really hard to do that against the Seahawks edge guys, whether it's Demarcus Lawrence, Chena Nwosu, some of the run tools they use where they're blitzing Witherspoon off the edge or Eman Warrior or whatever it's going to be. And so I think they are just a perfect matchup to shut that down right now, especially if Juszczyk is not going to play in this game. He's out for a while now. I think that they're going to have to retool their offense a little bit. And so in this week particular, I think that's tough. And then the other element of it, this is a Seahawks defense. We talked about it, especially all the time when they play the Rams.

5:38Dave Helman: Those middle of the field, 11 to 20 yard throws over the middle. You have to be able to challenge those windows and you have to have the arm to fit them. Purdy will throw them. Whether or not he consistently has the arm talent to fit them in there against Ernest Jones in the way that some of these corners and safeties are playing, that I think is where we get a little bit trickier as compared to obviously a guy like what Matthew Stafford can do at his best.

6:02Robert Mays: Going back and rewatching the Niners-Broncos game, one of the first runs they had, it might the actual first run they had in the game. They have Kittle going on that little banana motion. He's leading up on Q Robinson, and he gets actual movement on Q Robinson on the edge where he displaces him on that play. Comparing the edges for the Broncos and the way that those guys are built compared to the way the edges for the Seahawks are built, it's just a very clear example as to why the way the Niners run the ball is just a little bit harder to do against a team that is built literally and figuratively like the Seahawks defense is built.

6:37Derrik Klassen: I do think that's what makes this so exciting. And it feels like a real rubber meets the road matchup for what the 49ers have been. It's worth saying right here that Kyle Juszczyk's not going to play in this game. He's out. He's out for like multiple weeks. So he hasn't missed a game for them since 2022. And he's obviously between the motion and his blocking ability. He's such a big part of what they do. It sucks that it won't be the perfect idea of how they want to do this. but rewatching the Niners, especially against Denver, because yeah, they're smaller on the edge, but like Zach Allen is in the middle of that thing.

7:12Derrik Klassen: Like this is still, it's a tougher front than Miami and Arizona. And they did not move them around in the way that they've done to other teams so far this year. They didn't, but I have, like, I'm, I'm really encouraged by what I've seen from the rest of the 49ers offensive line. Obviously we know Trent Williams, but Connor Colby and Dominic Pune have been all like, they're out to a fantastic start to this season. And even if it didn't look great against Denver, as pass protectors and in the running game, I thought it was not consistent, but they were getting movement and showing flashes and looking more like pieces to be excited about rather than just Trent Williams and the four guys.

7:52Robert Mays: I think you've just felt a different level of physicality from the interior for the Niners this year than we would become accustomed to. I mean, when we think about the Niners, it's been a lot of undersized guys over the years, zone blocking team and I think that you know Poonie's a bigger body guy and even Colby's like 310 315 and you go back and from the start of the season against the Rams like their ability to move people just has felt a little bit different this year Derek than I think we typically ascribe to the Niners running game and specifically the Niners running game from last year and I do think

8:21Dave Helman: because of that you're seeing like when they get to some of their counter stuff or some of their you know gap stuff whatever it's going whatever it's going to be it's been really good how you

8:29Robert Mays: define it is probably up to you it's like it's weird enough that it kind of falls between a

8:33Dave Helman: couple different concepts it's all really weird in terms of who's pulling where who is fitting into where even where they're aligning the backs like on the Debo Samuel play he's in like under center offset like it's 1932 and I'm like all right man if that's what you want to do like obviously Shanahan is really interesting with that stuff so their run game is varied but their bread and butter is still the zone stuff and so I and now I wonder like I if Jusek was playing I would have been like man this is the game to run counter power all that stuff like 12 times but without him I do think that that's probably going to be a little bit trickier

9:05Robert Mays: we talked about it on the on the hangover some of the only stuff that was working for the chargers last week is when they were willing to get in 21 personnel and just run the ball downhill at Seattle and so now not having a fullback and being able to do that I looked up some of the numbers just because I was curious the Niners have been in 21 personnel on 41 percent of their plays so far this season. So they have lived in 21 for most of the year. They have a 51 % rushing success rate out of 21 personnel. They're averaging 0.12 EPA per carry. They only have 17 carries all year out of 12. And that is my assumption.

9:41Robert Mays: That's probably what we'll see a shift to where now as the move piece, Kittle's just going to do a little bit more of that stuff than he might in a given week as more of like an inline blocker. He already does some of it. But now I think a lot of that use check role where he's just consistently moving around. What did you say after week one? It's like, I got my cardio in after this one. I think George Kittle, that could be one of the weeks where he's really getting his cardio

10:04Derrik Klassen: in. I'm looking forward to it. And I mean, how they decide to do that and how they decide to pivot without use check. I think you're probably right about that. What that looks like is interesting. But again, I just, these, these young guards have looked really impressive to me. And now it's Leonard Williams and Byron Murphy. I assume Leonard Williams is going to play. I think Mike McDonald said he was optimistic. He had an ankle injury coming out of the Chargers game, but it sounds like they expect him to play.

10:29Robert Mays: He was limited on Wednesday. It sounds like he's probably going to play. The only main piece for the Seahawks that did not practice on Wednesday was JSN just because he was getting rest. Looking at the Niners injury report every single week is hilarious. Obviously, there are a bunch of guys that are actually hurt, but then you have several veterans that just don't practice once a week. Trent Williams, not injury-related resting player. Christian McCaffrey, not injury-related resting player. Drake Greenwald, not injury-related resting player. They're correct approach, but this team, it's always an adventure every single time you look up who's playing and who's not.

11:01Robert Mays: You got to be careful with the substation, man. Don't take any risks you don't need to. Speaking of injuries in the substation, one of the things we thought might feel different about the Niners' offense this year, and really kind of contrasting what it felt like in those Seahawks games in the playoffs, was, okay, now we have a big-bodied vertical X receiver where we can potentially attack teams down the field outside the numbers in a way we just couldn't at the end of the year. And when you look at the way that Seattle was playing the Niners in those two games, zero respect for their ability to attack that one specific area.

11:32Robert Mays: We thought that bringing Mike Evans in might give them just a little bit more when it came to that specific thing. Can you tag down the field outside the numbers a little bit more often? Mike Evans has been really productive for the Niners this year, Derek, but he hasn't really done that. Like the only, I think he has three catches of at least 20 plus air yards this year. Five targets. One of them was a goal ball against the Dolphins that he caught for a touchdown. The other two were, one was a crosser that drifted a little bit off field because Purdy was extending a little bit. And one was like a deep wrap router dig over the middle of the field.

12:05Robert Mays: And so that hasn't really been his role, even if Mike Evans has been a really important piece for why the Niners offense has felt how it feels. And so I'm wondering, is this the week where do we get one of those plays where Mike Evans is challenging a Josh Jobe outside the numbers? Because if you're trying to create the formula for how you can beat the Seahawks defense in any given game, anecdotally, it feels like every single one of those games involves at least one one-on-one outside the numbers deep shot to one of these receivers. This year, they lost one game. It was to Washington. Terry McCormick had one deep ball outside the numbers touchdown on a goal ball.

12:41Robert Mays: And so if you're going to beat them, it feels like you need one or two of these. The Rams had plenty of them last year. Is this the game where we see that version and that style of impact from Mike Evans in a way that they really haven't had to tap into so far this year?

12:54Dave Helman: I mean, you have to, because even as well as the 49ers are playing right now, you're never going to be efficient enough on a down to down basis to score 25, 30 points on a defense like this. And so you do have to generate those. It's, you know, we kind of joked about it, but Mike Evans has really just been super Juwan Jennings for the most part. And that's been really good for them. But when we came into the season, I thought like, OK, maybe they are going to try to be a little bit more vertical, but it's not really what they're doing. And against Seattle, it really is a lot of the way that they play their coverage, whether it's in some of their coverage six stuff or the quarters.

13:24Dave Helman: If you're playing like three by one, they will have that backside safety go and poach the front side because they want to take away the crossers, especially against a team like this who likes to run a lot of that stuff. well if you can get Mike Evans isolated one-on-one on the backside you can get some of those posts go balls really deep stop routes like stuff like that they're probably going to have to tap into that more than I think they would like to against other teams like I do think that that's a world that they don't love to live in because they're so two by two but I think you probably have to do

13:52Robert Mays: it a little bit this week and he did talk about those deep stop routes they have used him on a couple of those and that's that's something where we might see a little bit of that where He's just going to push vertical. He's turning around at 17 to 15 yards. Can you hit a couple of those in this game where you didn't really have somebody? Again, he's super Jawan Jennings. You don't feel good about Jawan Jennings running those deep stop routes against the Seahawks in a way you might with Mike Evans.

14:14Derrik Klassen: I heard you guys talking about this on The Hangover, too. For what the expectation was, I think Nehemiah Pritchett has been awesome for the Seahawks. I still think you should try to win there, you know? And honestly, I really like Josh Jobe as a player, too. He can be gotten. and like that is a place where I think you at least need to try. I don't even want to say the word exploit as if the Seahawks have this terrible weakness, but like.

14:37Robert Mays: Try is a good word. You have to at least try it. You have to at least show that you're capable of doing this in a way that you weren't in the back half of last season. Get to the other side of the ball. The Niners defense is just a unit we haven't really talked much about. We spent more time focusing on their offense last week against the Broncos. Derek, just going back and watching what the Niners defense has been so far this year, They've been a top five unit based on any number that you're looking at EPA per play DVOA all of that stuff. What have your early impressions been and how would you characterize what this defense has looked like with Raheem Morris as the coordinator?

15:10Dave Helman: I think in the back end it's not all that different. There are still a lot of cover three. It's a lot of single high all that sort of stuff. But the front is just so much more varied in so many different ways. Like even just from the way that they are aligning like they they really like their third linebacker Jaden Duggar. and we can talk about how much they've been playing base, but they've been putting him on the field as that like on the ball sort of guy who is like a pseudo edge player. The way that we've talked about Quay Walker being used for the Raiders. They do a lot of that sort of stuff with him.

15:37Dave Helman: And then the other thing is a lot of their blitz packages and what they're doing on pressure downs to me has been really impressive. Even from week one, we've started to see Fred Warner be used a lot more as a piece like on the ball and as a blitzer. And there are definitely numbers to back it up. Like in 2024 and 2025, he was rushing about two to three times a game. And that was about how much they used him. So far through four games this season, he has pass rushed 21 times, which is just over five times a game. And it's not even just when they send him. Like they put him mugged up a lot to like draw pressure and teams are going to slide their protection that way because they don't want to deal with him.

16:14Dave Helman: And it's the way that I think that they've schemed that up when it's still a pass rush unit that is fine, but obviously does not have Nick Bosa right now. And you've got to generate some of that stuff. they've done a really kick-ass job of doing that i think they're very they're varied schematically

16:29Derrik Klassen: they're literally varied her next gen they've used 15 d linemen through four games which is the most of the next gen era between injuries and just rotating guys 15 and it sounds again it sounds like michael williams is back for this game i hope that's the case because he's an exciting young player if he is just go ahead and call it 16 guys through first five weeks of the

16:53Robert Mays: season that the pressure stuff and just how they're using some of those front players is really what has stuck out because now i was wondering what the defense would look like with raheem morris because obviously his background is there's really no specific and quick way to explain it he's coached in virtually every single type of defensive system odd front even front blitz happy teams, more coverage based teams. He's done a little bit of everything. And so I was curious what tweaks we would see to a Niners team that had really been a lot of four down similar stuff for a very long time, considering who the coordinators have been.

17:27Robert Mays: And I think the main tweak that we've seen, and this is partially driven by the personnel, Duggar and Romello Height are both hybrid type players. And so we have seen them really lean into those guys as a way to make this thing feel a little bit more dynamic where height will be lined up as a spinner and they'll run a simulated pressure with fred warner where height is the one that's dropping into the hook or dugger will be lined up on the line of scrimmage and so your pressure plan is just a little bit more dynamic because you have all these sort of flexible pieces and that to me is what has felt different when this team faces a second and nine or any sort of third down situation it's anybody's guess who's going to be mugged up on the line of scrimmage where they're going to be who's coming who's not And I think they've really used that to advantage and use it in tandem with a back seven and a secondary specifically that's playing well.

18:17Robert Mays: I mean, you look at that group like Lenore's playing really well. Renardo Green is a solid player. And then the safeties, Marky Siegel had managed to stave off Malik, Malik Mustafa, even though he was healthy. He was banged up in training camp, but he was healthy by the time they started the season. And Siegel had been playing well enough where they were like, we're just going to roll with this guy. He's now hurt. but now you have you're going back to the guy who would have been the starter coming into the year and so it's a good group on the back end it's a pretty deep group on the back end and they've paired that with a pass rush plan that I think should scare teams right now they have a lot of guys with juice they're undersized as a group but if you're getting teams in a second and nine that

18:55Dave Helman: matters less and that they're doing a good job of that I'm just so happy to see the secondary have a chance because last year they just didn't like I thought the secondary it's a lot of the same guy It's pretty much all the same guys as they had in the secondary last year. But the front was so bad, whether that was getting them into not enough like pure passing downs or when they were in pure passing downs, the pass rush just wasn't getting home. The fact that they can get home a little bit more, they're speeding quarterbacks up in terms of their internal clock. You can see Renardo Green driving on routes.

19:23Dave Helman: Lenore really squeezing guys to the sideline. The safeties are playing fast. And overall, the linebacker play is so much better than last year. One, because Warner is just healthy and he's the best player at the position by a mile. but Trey Greenlaw baby he is back he is exceptional again and I don't know if it was just weird with the coaching staff in Denver he was obviously dealing with some injuries and stuff but put him back next to Fred Warner and that dude looks like a second team all pro again I think we could

19:48Robert Mays: take it one step further than that in terms of how we looked last week I mean he looked what what

19:54Derrik Klassen: is the word I'm looking oh John Wick yeah yeah he looks like a man on a revenge tour last week

19:58Robert Mays: one of my favorite moments of last week is Fred Warner yanking away from Sean Payton after that

20:03Derrik Klassen: game ended that's how about you incredible you saw the clip of him and i don't know what he said i think that part was like made up but he made a he made a great tackle for like a small gain uh and and sean payton was like 10 feet away and he went right sean payton was like pointing at gary bertier it yeah exactly yes from remember the titans it was like the fifth play of the game like it happened like immediately and i was like jesus but hey you know sometimes you just need to leave home to find out what you were missing the whole time. You know, he went away for a year and now he's back to looking like Dre Greenlaw.

20:38Derrik Klassen: What do we think about?

20:39Robert Mays: All right. We kind of established what the Niners defense has been so far this year. What does that mean against this Seahawks offense specifically in your mind?

20:47Dave Helman: Yeah, I would say in most matchups, a lot of other teams, you can run the ball a little bit on this San Francisco 49ers defense. They are, like you mentioned, they're still pretty small there without Nick Bosa. You can move these D tackles around a little bit but the Seahawks are mostly still a outside zone lead zone sort of running team and I actually think if you're going to try to attack guys like Keon White on the edge like he's actually a good edge setter and then I think if you're playing more zone stuff and you're like trying to get the backers to kind of connect four fit into wherever their their slot is going to be they're really really good at that and whereas I think you can really get this run defenses if you run duo some of the counter gap stuff that's just not as much of what Seattle does so I actually think that San Francisco 49ers run defense could be solid against a Seattle team that doesn't have either of its two best backs.

21:34Dave Helman: And then the second part of that, I think we're seeing that Sam Darnold is just not seeing it as well as he did last year. And that's obviously he misses, you know, a couple of games like he's not fully healthy. He's still trying to learn a system that's a little bit new to him. But I think while that might be fine five weeks from now when he's got a little bit more time, that's probably really tough. I think against the San Francisco 49ers defense that the pressure stuff is really good and Fred Warner is going to take away all the throws that he wants to throw and so I do think that this is going to be tough sledding for Seattle

22:03Robert Mays: with a quarterback that just feels a little bit more unsettled than he did last year like you go back and you watch that Chargers game that that's the word that I would probably use this is a Niners defense where if you can get them into defined passing situations on second and long third down you their defense is playing a way that's going to make quarterbacks feel more unsettled because of that pressure stuff that we were talking about. And so I think if the Niners can stop the run early downs and we get a lot of pure passing situations for Seattle, I don't know if that's the way they want the game to go.

22:34Derrik Klassen: I'll be impressed if Seattle runs the ball well in this game, just between what the Niners have done, what the Seahawks have looked like. Seahawks also, you make a great point about like early downs. The Seahawks are also horrendous in short yardage, which could loom large in a game like this with Warner and Greenlaw playing the way they're playing and what we've seen you know the Seahawks are third worst in the league in runs of negative or zero yards 20 24 percent of the time like they're in Raiders Packers territory of just not being able to generate things some of that is obviously Jadarian Price not being available but I don't know man I just I do not trust them to consistently be successful running the ball

23:15Robert Mays: this game i feel like it might be a little ugly if this was a 1917 sort of finish that wouldn't surprise me based on everything that we've just said i do think the defenses in this game potentially have the upper hand on both sides of the ball i do think jsn's a hell of a trump card

23:32Derrik Klassen: like i i'm not going to be surprised if they if it just works out that you know if jsn goes off in this game i can't rule that out entirely let's get to our next one here bills at rams this is

23:44Robert Mays: Monday Night Football, correct? It sure is. Look at me. The only reason I know that is because Beller told us 15 minutes before we started recording.

23:51Derrik Klassen: I don't really expect you to know that noon versus 3 p.m. kicks, but the fact that you didn't know that this is Monday Night Football is admirable. It's a degree of like just being locked in that I can't even fathom.

24:03Robert Mays: I watch them all. It doesn't matter when they're on. I'm going to watch them all. Beller tells me which recaps we do in the studio. That's the only thing that really matters. As long as you show up for those, were good. I'm showing up now. We'll see what happens over the rest of the year. Again, similar to Seahawks, Seahawks Niners. Don't think we really have to sell you on this one. Rams Bills was a pretty popular Super Bowl pig before the season started. They were the favorites in their respective conferences to go to the Super Bowl. They had the best Super Bowl odds. We have the two previous MVPs playing against each other, which doesn't happen that often.

24:36Robert Mays: The crazy thing is it kind of does. Oh, it does happen. It kind of does happen.

24:39Derrik Klassen: Like, no, when I saw this, I was like, oh, it's Allen versus Stafford. That can't happen very often. The teams that employ the previous two MVPs have played each other in seven of the last eight years. We haven't always gotten that matchup because like in 2023, Rodgers was out when they played the Chiefs. And I think Lamar missed a game against Patrick Mahomes earlier. But like we've had a really crazy run of these matchups where the previous two MVPs are playing each other. And I think it's probably because a lot of the MVPs in recent years have played. Division winners in the AFC. division winners in the XC.

25:12Derrik Klassen: Exactly. But this is not that. Yeah. We've got, you know, a cross-conference game with the two reigning MVPs. Let's go.

25:18Robert Mays: Similar to the situation with the Niners defense, we really, Derek, haven't talked much about the Bills defense so far this season. I don't think they've been a game of the week since maybe week one. They played a Thursday night game. And so, again, talking just more about how the offenses looked in that game. As you went back and rewatched what the Jim Liner defense has looked like so far for Buffalo, what were your initial impressions initial thoughts about just what they're trying to be on that side of the ball and what has stuck out about it.

25:46Dave Helman: I think you got to kind of separate front from from back seven here for a lot of different reasons. I think the front is playing out of their mind. Like I think that there's been so much talk about like what Deion Walker has been and Oliver getting back into the lineup. I think their D tackles have played really well. Landon Jackson as a defensive tackle conversion guy, I think has actually been pretty solid for them. He was the one who I think forced the strip sack against Drake May last week and then their edges are freaks man they've spent so long trying to be like oh we're gonna have all these long 265 pound guys and really other than Greg Rousseau not many of them have been like difference makers but Bradley Chubb is awesome and for a rookie who's off your bench TJ Parker I think has been really good for them so I love what they are trying to be up front where it's a lot of we're choking the pocket we're making sure we're getting uh setting the edge like I think they've done really well there the back end they've had to simplify it for these guys and I think that you're seeing it because it's just not a good group right now especially with Christian Benford out and I think a big thing that stuck out to me especially in this last game against the Patriots when they play all their zone stuff anytime they get like three by one or anything like that the backside corner is locked in man coverage and they're just saying hey we don't want you seeing anything we don't want you giving up air just press him and get hands on and same thing with whoever the backside like flat defender is they're just like run straight to the back hug him do not let him out of the backfield and I think that can work against certain teams I think if we're going to spin it forward to this week against the Rams if that's Devontae Adams on the back side if that's Kyron Williams out of the backfield buddy I don't know I think the Rams probably have a pretty good matchup in that sense

27:18Robert Mays: I mean they were struggling last week in one-on-one situations against the Patriots corners and Matt Collins broke off I think it was Ibn Ossian on like a deep in breaker and that was Like, that's Matt Collins. If that's Puka or Devontae Adams, I think it becomes even uglier. When I went back and watched it, disappoint is probably too strong a word. I was really curious about what a Jim Leonard defense would look like. And when you look at, and the front multiplicity and variability, obviously, has been tons more than it was last year. Guys are lining up in different places. We're slanting the front.

27:55Robert Mays: We're doing it. It's just more alive up front than it was in previous iterations of this defense. But on the back end, it's been a lot of zone coverage. They're not blitzing very often. They're sending a decent amount of simulated pressures, which I think we should have assumed. Jim Leonard did a ton of that when he was at Wisconsin. It's a huge part of his background. But it's all just a little bit more boring than I thought it was going to be. Do you think that's fair? Overall, when I watch it, it's all just a little bit more boring than I thought it was going to be. And that's fine. You can live that way.

28:25Robert Mays: But the things about this defense that have been exciting, to me, are solely rooted in personnel. like when I watched this group Walker and Rousseau is what really jump out to me just how they're playing on an individual level and I just thought overall there would be a little bit more oomph and a little bit more life to some of the stuff that they were doing with Jim Leonard than there has

28:45Dave Helman: been so far is that unfair I am surprised that they are not bringing quite as much pressure and they're like middle of the pack in terms of blitzing but I did think that they would be higher because when Jim Leonard the last time we saw him really call a defense was was Wisconsin and they were throwing those linebackers at people all day and granted it was leo channell and jack sanborn who are nfl players at the college level so maybe that's why you think you can get away with it more and these are our bills linebackers who are they're a little bit smaller terrell bernard and andorin williams are not going to blow anybody up they're not going to move running backs and so maybe that's part of it but i did think that there would be a little bit more of that the coverage stuff i'm at least willing to give them a little bit of benefit of the doubt just because I think that this is still not a very talented secondary outside of obviously, especially with Christian Benford now not playing.

29:34Derrik Klassen: That was going to be my question is, do you think Jim Leonard trusts his guys to hold up if he tries to play it that crazy?

29:41Robert Mays: No, clearly not. And I think that's a fair place to land right now with the way that the corners are playing. And the Bills defense has been consistently pretty mediocre on the back end so far this year. Anything else, Derek, about this matchup specifically that you think is worth paying attention to?

29:56Dave Helman: In terms of Rams offense, Bills defense, I do actually, and I want to flip it back to the other side of the ball here with the Rams offense. When they've been elite at their best, Matthew Stafford is winning MVPs. It's because they've been able to stay out of the pure drop back passing downs. And that to me is not necessarily that Stafford can't see it. It's just that this is an offensive line that is not very good in pure pass protection spots. and Stafford can't move. So he's going to stand on his spot. And if he's crowded, he's going to throw it and it's going to lead to some interceptions.

30:28Dave Helman: And I think we've got a couple of stats that really back up that that's been more of an issue for them this year than it really was at any point last year. The Rams last season had 22 dropbacks of second and 11 or longer. It was the lowest in the NFL by five. They already have 13 of those this season through four games. It's tied for the third most in the NFL. And that extends to third down. on third down they've had 15 dropbacks of uh or last year in 2025 they had 15 third down dropbacks of at least 11 yards to go lowest in the NFL again this year they have 10 like they are almost there through four games and you are just and what's funny is normally you would think that's like oh well maybe the run game kind of fell away and that's been more of an issue for them it's really not the run game is almost as successful and consistent as it was last year it's penalties Penalties are killing them, and some of their first down pass stuff is not as good because Pukundukua has been hurt, and Terrence Ferguson's hurt now, and they can't boot as much as they used to because I think they're worried about Stafford moving.

31:29Dave Helman: And so some of the layers of stuff that was easy for them of getting into or getting away from pure pass stuff, they've struggled with that this year, and you're seeing it, and that's where the Stafford mistakes come from, the interceptions, the bad misses, stuff like that.

31:43Derrik Klassen: it's funny to think that we're heading into week five and i don't think we could possibly guess at what the rams actually want to be because puka got healthy just in time for them to be down two tight ends last week i re-watched the eagles rams game and like seven snaps in i was like holy shit has this all been shotgun they ran like 87 of their snaps out of the gun last week because they had to switch it up without their tight ends i guess that's the reason but it's the

32:10Robert Mays: What I've come away thinking about the Rams over the first month is that when this team was at its best last year, there were so few moments, so few games where they weren't the ones consistently dictating the terms of how things were going to go. And some of that is staying in the proper down and distances like Derek was talking about. Like when you're constantly in third and two, third and one, you can lean into under center play action stuff there where you're very rarely in pure pass. You can be the one that's dictating terms. And I think this offense relies on that because of who the tackles are, because of who Stafford is at this point in his career.

32:43Robert Mays: And when they're still a good offense, right? They're top 10 in virtually every single metric. But you feel the inconsistency because they're just playing the games purely on their terms less often than they were for the entirety of last season.

32:57Dave Helman: And I'm willing to buy that they can get back there, right? Like when Puka Nakua comes back, like when Puka Nakua, I think ramps up because I do think last week he doesn't look fully like 100 percent like Puka Nakua. But if a month from now he does, yeah, I bet the Rams can do a lot of the stuff that they want to again. But until we get there, there's going to be a little bit more herky-jerkiness.

33:15Derrik Klassen: I don't know what Colby Parkinson's status is for this game. But if he can play, and Terrence Ferguson had to be moved to IR, which is a bummer. But if he can play, then the Rams would have their choice of their top four receivers. Because Jordan Whittington came back last week, too. Or maybe it was two weeks ago, but he's back. He was back two weeks ago, but didn't play that much. He was still a little bit further down the depth chart. So you have your choice of your receivers and you do have three tight ends available to you. If, if they have the full menu of who they want to put out there available, I'm just curious to see what it would look like.

33:49Derrik Klassen: Cause like I said, I just, I don't think they've been able to call it the way that they would prefer really to this point in the season. I don't say that to make excuses for them. And to your point, they've still been a successful offense for the most part. It just doesn't look as beautiful as it does when your quarterback's playing like an MVP. And Stafford hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't been on that level. And to Derek's point about what this looks like, I couldn't believe it when I looked it up. And again, so and I know they were playing in the rain, but like so many either miscommunications or outright drops like him and Devontae Adams haven't, other than that Giants game, like haven't consistently been on the same page.

34:28he has thrown five interceptions so far this year when throwing the ball 16 plus yards downfield in

34:35Derrik Klassen: the like 16 plus air yards he threw one interception on those types of throws all last year so like you it's really obvious that even this offense for the most part is moving the ball and scoring points still it's it's a far cry from what we got used to last year at least to this point

34:53Robert Mays: oh they're just so inconsistent like they're they still have not found their footing in any way and And the other number I'd throw out, again, just trying to paint a picture of the gap between what we saw from them last year and what we've seen from them this year. When this offense has been rolling, 2021 Super Bowl year, last season with Stafford winning the MVP, they've been one of the best teams in the league against the Blitz. It's a good bellwether, honestly, for how healthy the offense feels overall. This year, super small sample. We're throwing out constantly at this point in the season.

35:19Robert Mays: And Stafford, negative 0.27 EPA per drop back, 42 % success rate, 19 of 39 with three interceptions against the Blitz so far. And open to the idea of that getting better over an entire season. But again, if you're trying to figure out, like, why doesn't that quite feel the same offensively for the Rams as it did last year? I think there are a lot of different things you could point to. Let's go to the other side of the ball. Derek, the number one thing you're looking for when the Bills have the ball in this game, just based on what you've seen from Buffalo over the first month, is what?

35:49Dave Helman: I'm a little worried about the offensive line against the front like the Rams have. Obviously, they're missing Myles Garrett, but it is still a very, very good Rams front even without him. And I think this Bill's offensive line is not quite playing to the level that we have seen from them, especially, I think, in pass protection. Obviously, the first two weeks running the ball, they were unbelievable, but the run game has changed a little bit because of some of the ways that they're doing things. And I just think that Osiris Torrance, I thought, looked a little bit lost last week. And then the big one to me, Deion Dawkins just does not look like a set it and forget it sort of left tackle.

36:24Dave Helman: Like, I think that you're just seeing he's trying to jump on guys a little bit more and it's losing him reps immediately. There were a couple of times where Gabe Ackes was just blowing him up last week. And that's that's kind of what Gabe Ackes does. But guess who can do that?

36:36Robert Mays: The Rams. Look at this man just twisting this into Gabe Ackes propaganda. You're not going to do the argument for me. He always knows where he's trying to get to.

36:44Derrik Klassen: Gabe is firmly on the short list of guys I get excited to see on my TV screen as far as the

36:50Dave Helman: rookies go I know my spot I can find the corner three with my takes and and and but again the Rams guys can do that Byron Young can do that to you Josiah Stewart can do that to you like I just think that I think that they're going to have a little bit of issues in terms of the pure pass protection stuff and I think if you were on the bill side the thing that you would really really be hoping for is, okay, the Rams are playing a little bit more man coverage this year. Let's have DJ Moore out there. It gives us a chance against man coverage, and it bumps all of our other wide receivers down the totem pole to where they can face some potentially lesser Rams DBs in terms of that mold.

37:25Dave Helman: Well, if DJ Moore's not going to play, and that seems pretty uncertain, and Trent McDuffie's just going to go get to man up your best guy, it's really hard for me to see how the Bills guys separate consistently in this game.

37:35Robert Mays: Even if DJ Moore's going to play, that's not really who DJ Moore is.

37:40Derrik Klassen: DJ Moore in a shoulder harness going against Trent McDuffie doesn't sound like an advantage for the Bills. No.

37:47Dave Helman: Especially not with how he's playing this year. McDuffie, that is.

37:50Robert Mays: That's what I mean. This version of Trent McDuffie against DJ Moore even at 100%, DJ Moore is not some separation-creating man coverage beater. That's never been who he is. And so I think overall, those matchups on the outside very much favor the Rams. I'm curious what the approach is for Buffalo offensively in this game because you look at what they did last week. We mentioned on the recap show very little like super heavy personnel compared to what it had been over the first few weeks. I think Joe Brady came out and said that part of that might have been because DJ Moore got hurt mid game and he was the sole receiver in some of those 13 personnel looks.

38:27Derrik Klassen: He very coach he coach spoke his way through it, but he said he was like last week's game was weird. And, you know, part of the plan changed when DJ Moore got hurt. And you took the words right out of my mouth when we talked about it. It's like, if DJ Moore is unavailable, wouldn't you look for more opportunities for Dalton Kincaid to be your guy as a pass catcher instead of running 17 routes in a game?

38:49Robert Mays: I think the thought of who needs to play the one receiver role in 13 personnel is just anybody. Like anybody. That is what I would guess. Pop whoever you want out there. Like the amount of Kanata Mumfield, Xavier Smith snaps, Tutu Atwell snaps that we've gotten out of those looks from the Rams over the last couple of years.

39:06Derrik Klassen: Like it could truly be anybody that you want. I haven't checked the numbers this year, so it might be different, but I'm pretty sure last year Mumfield was the Rams top guy in 13.

39:16Robert Mays: That's because the other guys were getting breathers when they were in that.

39:18Derrik Klassen: And so the idea, so, I mean, the bill, the bills are second in the league in 13 personnel snaps right now. They're the only team that's really even in the Rams zip code. They ran seven last week. and if dj more being hurt is the reason why they ditched it that's just kind of wild to me like to for every reason that you just said so i'm i'm curious to see if they maintain that because i don't i it just it looked too good to completely scrap it no matter who's available again that we

39:47Robert Mays: could say some million things about every single stat we're going to mention small sample but 16 dropbacks uh out of base personnel for the rams this year they've been good on those 16 dropbacks I still, if I were building a plan for the Bills, getting those three guys out there, making them play with bigger bodies and seeing if I could both run the ball downhill and throw the ball against those looks, that's probably what I'd be trying to lean into if I were Buffalo.

40:08Dave Helman: That is 100 % what I would be trying to do. And I will say one interesting thing there, the Rams will play even out of base personnel. A lot of like the 6 '1 fronts, they'll put space on the line or something like that and have Landman just be a solo guy. So that does kind of feel like a decent answer if the Bills are going to play a lot of those like five-man surfaces and just spread stuff out, but we'll see how it goes.

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43:20Robert Mays: We trotted this out, I think, heading into week three, right? That sounds right, yeah. Where we spent a little bit of time with teams that, circling the drain might be strong, but should be feeling an increased sense of urgency. And to be clear, the team that we're going to talk about that is living in the danger zone right now, we were going to do this before they had the last couple days that they had, before Lane Johnson retired, before Cam Juergens got traded. We were already going to talk about the fact that it seemed like this Eagles season was on life support. It doesn't feel less like that now.

43:55Derrik Klassen: I was so proud of us for trotting this takeout on Tuesday morning. Like, yeah, hey, Eagles are two and two, but we need to be talking about this. And I mean, two hours after our first production call of the week, Lane Johnson retired. So I was like, all right, well, this is hardly a hot take anymore. And then they traded Cam Juergens. So, yeah, it happens when you record the show on Thursday. But, I mean, it's still a point worth making, even if it's not a hot take anymore.

44:23Robert Mays: Yeah, it's everything that's happened doesn't make this conversation less relevant. It makes it potentially even more relevant. If you guys want to hear, like, a breakdown of the Juergens trade specifically, what it means for Philly, what it means for Baltimore, Deontay and I spent a lot of time digging into that on yesterday's show. Just why the Eagles would be willing to do this in this moment, I think it's pretty self-explanatory. It's a fantastic return on a guy who wasn't playing very well, has some injury concerns, and is making a decent amount of money. For the Ravens, it's a, we're trying to save our season because our offense is playing at a really high level.

44:57Robert Mays: We need a center. I get it from both sides, even if it's an overpay. What we didn't really do on that show, because where it fell in the news cycle and the fact that the Juergens trade happened right before we started recording, I want to take a minute just to talk about Lane Johnson and Lane Johnson's career before we dig into the current state of the Philadelphia Eagles, because this is one of the best players of his generation at any position. And I think just a little bit of Lane Johnson career celebration is worth it before we dig into everything else we want to talk about here.

45:26Derrik Klassen: It's weird to do it in the middle of the go, go, go cycle of getting ready for the upcoming weekend. But it, yes, I mean, this is a, this is a no doubt instant Hall of Famer. I was thinking about this. People were talking about it on social media. I mean, in the pantheon of offensive linemen, like right tackles, potentially probably the best ever.

45:47Robert Mays: Yeah, I'd have to go back and look at the actual list, but certainly in the conversation. And I think did a lot to reframe what we how we see right tackles, how we compensate right tackles, how we talk about right tackles, the closing gap between how we value guys at that position. I mean, for a long time, he was treated as an outlier contractually. Go ask Mitch about it and how pissed off he was, the fact that they treated Lane as an outlier contractually.

46:11Derrik Klassen: When I started, actually, Lane's draft was my first draft covering the NFL. Number four overall pick in 2013, day one starter, you know, all the accolades, five all pros, was on both of Philly's Super Bowl teams. When I started covering this, even in 2013, it was still like, ah, he's probably got to be a right tackle in the NFL, though. Like, he's not athletic enough. No, no, no, no. no i just in general in football it was still very much oh yes that's how we talked about right tackles yes like oh yes yes yes he's great but he's got to play right tackle in the nfl because he's lesser you know or like he's not the athlete or or whatever it might be he doesn't have the traits to play left tackle lane johnson and i don't have more traits than any tackle that's come into the draft like in the last 20 years it's it's not it's not all him other guys were part of it but like he was at the forefront of this surge of right tackle being valued and you could be arguably or definitely the best offensive lineman in football and play right tackle like as recently as like 2013 it wasn't always viewed that way okay everyone assumed he would just move

47:19Robert Mays: over to the left side when jason peters moved on that just never happened because it doesn't have to happen we would do this because you typically leave left tackles on an island more than you leave right tackles that that just the construction of your offense the eagles did not do that and i think that if you're trying to articulate the greatness of like what may lay Johnson such a special player I think when you're comparing him to the best left tackle of the past 10 years a guy like Trent Williams we talk about this all the time if I showed my wife clips of Trent Williams like as a run blocker she would very easily be able to understand why Trent Williams was like a special player.

47:57Robert Mays: But because Lane's greatness manifested so much in pass protection, it was just a quieter version of utter, complete and consistent dominance. And it's the way they used him. I had such a great conversation with Jordan Mailata at training camp this year, and we were talking about the new offense and what the new offense was asking of them. And he was telling me just about talking to Lane about the fact that they had a little bit more help and that there are times where the guard would slide their way and they were just like, holy shit, you can do this. This is something you can do in an NFL offense because for years and years and years, they, and especially Lane, were just asked to be on an island constantly.

48:38Robert Mays: Like what they were asking him to do within the offense, the offense could be what it could be because of what you could put on Lane Johnson. He was a singular player in a lot of ways, specifically at that position. And I think we just didn't talk about it or notice it often enough because, again, his version of being great was just a little bit quieter and a little bit less flashy than some other offensive linemen.

49:00Dave Helman: Well, and it's how often do we talk about with offensive linemen? The best thing that you can do as an offensive lineman during the game is that nobody even thinks about you being there. And Lane Johnson is the most you just kind of forget that anything is even happening on the right side because he's never giving up pressures, never giving up sacks like Like he just, he was an incredible model for consistency. And Dave, I'm glad you said 2013 was your first draft. That was my first draft doing any of this stuff. And I remember like, so Lane Johnson for the entirety of the time that I've been doing this job, it's been him and Trent Williams for like, if I was doing the all Derek career team, those are the tackles.

49:38Dave Helman: And so the fact that one of them is now, is now gone is, is really sad. Cause he, he truly was a really special player for a long time.

49:45Derrik Klassen: Math is not my strong suit. It's one of the reasons I wanted to pursue a career in writing. But I did some quick math on just what Lane Johnson did over the course of his career. So just shy of 12 ,000 career snaps, 6 ,500 pass blocking opportunities, 295 career pressures allowed. So I averaged that out by a per game basis. A pressure allowed every 22 pass blocks. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But then I was curious, too. 40 percent, Robert, of his career pressures allowed came in the first three years of his career. So 2016 to 2026, he was allowing a pressure every 30 pass pass block opportunities, which like, you know, an offensive tackle.

50:33Derrik Klassen: It might be between like 30 and 35 opportunities a game. so over the course of his career depending on whether you want to do all 14 years or just the last 10 he was at he was allowing an average between one and two pressures a game for 14 freaking years dude and then if you want to do sacks 33 sacks allowed in 188 games do the math depending on when you want to start over the course of his entire career he was allowing a sack every five or six games and again 11 of his 33 sacks allowed came when he was a rookie so if you just nix out the rookie year and go by the other 13 years of his career he was allowing a sack every eight games for 13 years it's absolutely incredible a singular career and one other thing i wanted to say because you know the the circumstances of this suck obviously like you know he's he's long been a mental health advocate he stepped away i think

51:34Robert Mays: it was in 2021 for a few games yeah i think yeah yes i can't remember the exact circumstances it had something to do with the medication he was on and some of the things that they were dealing with but yes obviously dealing with something very serious and much more than football and the idea

51:51Derrik Klassen: that he would be stepping away for something that it wasn't incredibly critical remember this is a man who played through a torn abductor when the Eagles had a shot to win a Super Bowl in 2020 I think it was 2022 season he played through a torn abductor in the playoffs just to give you an idea of whatever he might be dealing with so I just I wish him the best on a personal level and obviously the timing sucks but to like to question what Lane Johnson is all about over it just f*** off. Imagine how hard that decision must be.

52:22Robert Mays: Yeah. To walk away from not only your, your, the locker room, your teammates, but to walk away from a place where I assume there's a comfort, there's a familiarity, there's a purpose. Like I can't even imagine how difficult that decision was and everything about this, both the Lane Johnson element of it and just the fallout and kind of the, the Eagles and the way that they've reacted to it is just such a reminder that these are people and i'll say i'm guilty of this sometimes where i think we can talk about football on a schematic level and they can be x's and o's on a chalkboard and we kind of remove the humanity from it a little bit too often but the guy that i really was paying attention to over the last 48 hours is jordan mailotta i mean jordan mailotta is living the will smith living room meme right now yeah i mean he's been the guy that that that entire group was together for years and years and years landon dickerson's hurt right now lane johnson just retired cam jurgens gets traded and they asked him yesterday about the Juergens trade and he talked about how after they heard about it, they both like shared a moment, they cried.

53:25Robert Mays: They asked him like, you know, has Lane moving on? Has that made you think about how long you'll play? And he's like, yes. But at this point, like, I can't think about that. It's something I got to put in the background. I have to be the one who helps turn this thing around. And so I just, the entire, on multiple different levels, I think the human aspect of this has been front and center in a way that we don't always spend a lot of time focusing on, but probably should.

53:50Derrik Klassen: Mylotta and Dickerson were the newcomers to this thing too. Like what feels like yesterday, you know, it feels like yesterday that I was like, holy shit, this Jordan Mylotta guy is really good. Where did he come from? He's like Jesus. And now, yeah, he's him. And I mean, and Dickerson's obviously not available right now. So among guys that can play, he's the last one.

54:09Robert Mays: And I think that's a really important place to transition here. it really does feel like we're moving to a different era it really does feel like this era of philadelphia eagles football like just think about how we defined this team the year they won the super bowl think about the personalities the players the play style that really dictated how we thought about the eagles over the last four or five years jason kelsey's gone lane johnson's gone landon dickerson is hurt aj brown is no longer here it really does feel like we're moving into a different place and i don't know what that means for the rest of this season i said yesterday and i maintain i don't think the cam jurgens trade is a signal that they're it's a fire sale like i wouldn't be calling about quinnion mitchell and cooper de jean like that that's not what this is i think it was a deal that was too good to pass up but on the offensive side of the ball it really does feel like we could see this group potentially continue to spiral over the course of this season and that was the conversation we were going to be having in this segment specifically even before things like the cam jurgens trade and so i i'm i'm in a spot right now where i think this could get pretty ugly over the course of the year and i'm

55:20Dave Helman: not sure what salvages it over the course of this season i think it's going to get very ugly because like and i think from a what they want to be standpoint they already wanted to be a different era of eagles football going into this season you know stoutland being out of the building they bring and Sean Mannion to run a different kind of offense than they'd brought before. AJ Brown is out of the building. Like they already wanted to be something else. But then you get some of the other injuries. Lane's retiring. And I think the Cam Juergens trade to me is not fire sale, but it's kind of an admission of like, okay, us trying to change it this year.

55:51Dave Helman: We just got to like kind of start over fresh on this side of the ball. And I think that that's kind of where they're headed. And I think it's going to make for a very tough season this year because I think it was already going to be difficult trying to get, you know, new system. These guys are learning how to be more wide zone, all that stuff. Well, now you're doing it with Jordan Mailata is the only good guy they wanted out there. And, you know, Tyler Steen was a starter coming into the year, but I think he's been very up and down. But otherwise, it's a lot of young players. It's a lot of guys who are supposed to be depth pieces for them.

56:18Dave Helman: And they don't have any of the pass catchers like healthy and available that they want to fix this thing. Like Devonta Smith's been banged up. Dallas Goddard's not been out there. Like it's, it is harder to see the light at the end of the tunnel than you would want for a team that is four weeks into this new thing.

56:34Derrik Klassen: So I have a couple thoughts. I can't go, I can't go all the way there with y 'all. Although it does, it does remind me of 2024 for the wrong reasons. Because remember 2024, they went down to Tampa and got the shit beat out of them going into their bye week. And they got healthy on the week off. They retooled and they only lost one more game the rest of the way. but Lane didn't play that game in Tampa and neither did Devante Smith or AJ Brown and so like you had all this room for optimism like we're going to get healthy three of our absolute best players are going to be back and that made all the difference in the world what are those reinforcements like it's Devante Smith and that's not enough that's not enough not nearly enough okay I will say this though Devante Smith Dallas Goddard I think it goes underrated that Zach Bond didn't play against the Rams the other day.

57:25Derrik Klassen: I don't think the Eagles are going to be like, I don't think they're going to spiral into being terrible, at least not without more injuries coming. But, and I was the one fighting for the Eagles at the table heading into the season. I think I thought they had Superbowl potential and I think they had Superbowl expectations. Even if I don't think the Eagles are going to be terrible, that ship has sailed for me. Like the idea that they are on that level, it's, it's over. And I definitely didn't expect to be there in week five. I think this team could mess around and flirt with 500 or be over 500, depending on a few variables.

58:04Derrik Klassen: But even if you disagree, the fact that that is what I think they're capable of, I mean, it speaks to how off the rails this season has already gone. Because we had a fight about whether they belonged at our table of Super Bowl contenders, and that seems laughable right now.

58:23Robert Mays: I right and maybe this is reacting too much to what the last couple weeks have been like they almost beat the Rams but the Rams tried to give them that game like a half dozen times and they still couldn't win I honestly I think about the state of the offense right now the fact that the offensive line is going to be what it is for as excited as I am to watch Willie Lampkin play NFL football I'm not sure that's enough for the Eagles offense looking like a buttoned up put together unit over the course of the season if I had to bet on it right now it's October 8th I think I would, depending on the odds you gave me, I would be more apt to bet on the Eagles to have a top 10 pick than I would be for them to be a playoff team.

59:00Derrik Klassen: Top 10. Top 10 means seven wins or less. Just making sure you're aware.

59:07Robert Mays: The offense is unwatchable, and the defense has been fine. Like, fine. We thought the defense might be one of those, like, f*** you, season-changing units.

59:17Derrik Klassen: They've been disappointing, but there's still reason to think

59:20Robert Mays: that they could be better but let's just say their finishes the ninth best defense in the league and the offense is bottom eight at best over the course of the year that's a team that wins seven

59:32Derrik Klassen: games and picks ninth in the draft it's on the table which And I did not see coming, obviously. And I would have felt comfortable saying all of this stuff if Lane Johnson still played for the Eagles. And so that just exacerbates it even more. You have this tension with the Eagles building, and you've seen it over the last 24 hours.

59:56Robert Mays: Howie Roseman can operate with as much patience and distance from what's happening as he possibly wants. if the Eagles win six games this year, which they'll probably win more than that. They already have two wins. Howie Rosen's not losing his job. He can trade players. And I know Cam Juergens was not playing well, but just in a vacuum. He can trade players for 20, 28 picks because he knows he's going to be here. The coaching staff doesn't have that luxury. And so that tension to me is interesting to say the least.

1:00:26Derrik Klassen: We talk in memes too often, but like the meme of the person drowning and they just get a high five. Like that's Nick Sirianni. Like Howie Roseman's like, we've got two ones and two twos in 2028, baby. And Sirianni is just waving for help as much as he can.

1:00:43Robert Mays: Let's stick with a little danger zone talk here and talk about another. Let's call it interesting coaching dynamic in the NFL right now. Came out today. Curious how you want to frame this came out today that let's call it this. The Broncos are going to have a more collaborative process with the way that they're calling plays on Sunday against the Chargers and moving forward, meaning that Sean Payton is going to be more involved in what that looks like after a month of getting this from Davis Webb, not even a month. It took less than a month for Sean Payton to say, you know what, this wasn't a good idea.

1:01:17Robert Mays: I'm going to be the play caller again.

1:01:19Derrik Klassen: If I had said that to you in May, like if we had made the joke in May that Sean Payton would take play calling back less than a month into the season, we would have been like, ah, that's a little too glib. Like be realistic. Don't be don't be a jerk. If it happens, it'll happen later in the year. Like that would have felt too knee jerk. And reality is less less than a calendar month. The season started on September 13th.

1:01:42Dave Helman: They couldn't get to Halloween before Sean Payton was like, I got to take it back. And, you know, they didn't say that he's immediately taking all of it back. But the fact that he is going to have more thumb on the scale to me means that, like, it's his offense again.

1:01:55Robert Mays: what they the some of the messaging was that davis webb's still going to be really involved in the in like the process and everything else yeah he's the offensive coordinator of the team of course even if he wasn't the play caller he has a huge hand in the game planning like that outside of getting fired i would assume that he would continue to have a huge hand in the game planning listen this is davis webb's fault when you're looking at your play sheet you have to pick the plays from the section of the play sheet that say the quarterback actually throws the ball. If you're not going to do that, then you're just it's a recipe for disaster.

1:02:27Dave Helman: The line that the section that is four lines long in the whole the whole dinner menu of plays, there's four lines at the bottom.

1:02:36Derrik Klassen: I was joking with y 'all during the production meeting. Like, I don't even know. I don't know how much I could have gleaned from the 49ers defense against Denver because like the open receivers were there. Like, I don't know. The right plays were called. The good plays were called. The balls weren't thrown. So, yeah, I don't know what this is going to do. The question I wanted to ask you is, in a world where Josh Allen doesn't lose his mind and the Bills don't turn the ball over five times in the divisional round of the playoffs, let's say the Bills win that game. Do you think that this happens or do you just, like, let Davis Webb leave?

1:03:12Derrik Klassen: because like to me this this whole thing feels like a symptom of being that agonizingly close where you're like one freak injury away from playing in the super bowl probably and so like that that need to hold on to everything that you can just overtakes everything else but that wasn't the status quo though he wasn't the play caller again it feels like but like if you fall two games short of the Super Bowl instead of one. Do you say, f*** it, we'll let anybody leave that wants to leave? Well, not we'll let anybody leave, but like if somebody comes calling about Davis Webb and you lose in the divisional round, you're like, okay, that's probably for the best and like good luck to you instead of being like, hey man, we were right there.

1:03:56Derrik Klassen: Because like what other reason would you do this for? That was what I always thought it was about.

1:04:00Robert Mays: I don't really understand it even from that perspective because it's, this happens. Like if you have a good team and you win a bunch of games and you have coaches on your staff that are lower level guys, they're going to get hired away to get some of these roles. And so the idea that we had to give Davis Webb play calling so he wouldn't get hired away and be the play caller somewhere else, isn't the entire point of having Sean Payton as your head coach so you don't have to worry about this shit? Well, yes, but you know what's funny now that I'm thinking about it?

1:04:29Dave Helman: Sean Payton forever had an offensive coordinator that wasn't going anywhere. Pete Carmichael is his offensive coordinator forever in New Orleans and was never leaving. And so there's some amount of like he's used to that.

1:04:42Robert Mays: But Davis Webb wasn't the offensive coordinator last year. Right. Joel Lombardi was the offensive coordinator last year. Davis Webb was the quarterback's coach. The idea that like we have to elevate our quarterback's coach to offensive coordinator in order to not lose him. Why? Like, what is the reason for that?

1:04:59Derrik Klassen: I think he was, yeah, he was past game coordinator too. Oh, excuse me. Just for the record. My God. We're halfway there. I remember we were in Indianapolis when it came down that this was going to happen. And in the moment, we were all just like, okay, A, why? And B, how long do you think that's going to last? And like I said, to be proven right this quickly, like the truth is stranger than fiction. You know what I mean? Like I whole thing felt unnecessary. and maybe it'll help hopefully it helps yeah sean pain is just going to call the plays where

1:05:34Robert Mays: the quarterback throws the ball and that's going to change everything that's all you really need to do all right let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit one thing from a couple more of these week five matchups this episode is brought to you by on it you know those days where

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1:07:36Robert Mays: Going to move through these pretty quickly. One thing from Ravens Falcons that I want to focus on. It's pretty simple. Can you stop the run if you're the Ravens? You look at what the Falcons have done over the last couple of weeks. Right now, Atlanta leads the league with a 51.1 % rushing success rate per next gen. They've done what they've wanted on the ground. It's been absolutely incredible. Bajan has been phenomenal. We talked a lot about him yesterday with me and Deontay, just sitting with the Falcons as being one of the coolest surprises of the season so far. The Ravens, their approach to run defense this year has really jumped out to me just in the sense of what Jesse Minter has been trying to do.

1:08:12Robert Mays: They've been comfortable playing base to 12 personnel consistently, which is going to be a lot of what they're going to see against Atlanta this weekend. So I expect to see a decent amount of that. overall the Ravens have just been willing to play with heavier boxes than Minter was playing with last year the I think some of that is dictated by the teams that are playing against if you look at the blocked box rate so just the sheer number of snaps the percentage of snaps where they have fewer defenders in the box than blockers it's not that far off from what the Chargers were doing last year and so the fact that they've been in light boxes 12 percentage points less than the Chargers were last year I think it's like 43 % to 21%.

1:08:49Robert Mays: Some of that is dictated by opponent and just the way the teams are playing you. But overall, the Ravens have been willing to play with heavier boxes than the Chargers did last year. And NextGen this year is doing, it's actually very cool. Some of the stats are split up by actual run concepts. And again, small sample, four games. But the Chargers, or the Ravens this year so far, have been top four in success rate against zone runs specifically. And obviously against the Falcons, Derek, that's where they're going to be seeing a lot of.

1:09:20Dave Helman: That's what the whole thing still is. That's a lot of what they do because that's what Bajon Robinson is good at. He's just the way that he sees it, the way that he cuts is really special. I do think the Ravens defense has a good chance for a few reasons. I think the way that some of their edges are playing in run defense is really impressive. Zion Young is really, really good at that. I think Mike Green has been better in that sense. The linebackers, especially Trenton Simpson, has taken a massive step this year. I think that he is playing really, really well for them. But to me, the big difference from especially what I think we've seen from these last couple of games against, you know, where the Falcons are playing the Packers and they're playing against the Saints, the Saints, especially their defensive tackles don't really get up the field and they're not that explosive.

1:10:02Dave Helman: It's a lot of we're sitting on our spot where, you know, you're going to get four hands on us and we're going to try not to move that far. And I thought the Falcons did a really good job of handling that stuff. The Ravens guys will try to get upfield a little bit more. Like Travis Jones can be explosive. Matt Abike, you know, he's still working into the lineup and stuff, but he can do that. And I just think that their run tools are better in terms of when they're firing linebackers, how they're doing it. So I think the Ravens have a decent chance. I think we'll still get, you know, three digits from Bajon Robinson.

1:10:29Dave Helman: I just don't know if it'll be 180 and three touchdowns the way that it's, you know, been the last couple of weeks.

1:10:35Robert Mays: The other thing worth mentioning about this game, it really doesn't seem like Lamar is going to play. And why I wanted to mention that i think it's two things one now we're in a spot where the falcons beat the lamar list ravens based on how atlanta's played over the last couple weeks i don't think it would really

1:10:48Derrik Klassen: shock anybody right i don't know if lamar's not playing which good opportunity to say my bad falcons i didn't know you were capable of this when i was making fun of you for playing three games in prime time or in a row we were we already did that mea culpa when you were gone

1:11:05Robert Mays: Oh, my bad. I'm sorry. We can continue to apologize for it, but I think everyone has made that apology at this point.

1:11:11Derrik Klassen: I do want to say, though, I'm just not to say that they can't do it. And if Lamar doesn't play, I agree with Derek. This is a very winnable game for Atlanta. I want to see what it looks like when you don't run for literally 200 yards. Anything short of that.

1:11:25Robert Mays: Well, I think that's the thing. Yeah. Can the Ravens prevent them from running for 200 yards? That's going to be the question. On that side of the ball, I just think it's worth mentioning. Lamar over the first four weeks of the season, in my opinion, was the best player in football. The way that he was playing. And the Ravens have had a weird year. Like they shut it down at halftime, essentially twice. Lamar missed the second half of last game. Like Zay Flowers has been in and out of the lineup. But just watching how Lamar has been playing on a down-to-down basis, it makes me sad that that's getting derailed in any way.

1:11:58Robert Mays: The hope is he misses a game or two, comes back and continues to play at that level. If that's the case, then the Ravens are ridiculously scary. But if this ankle, either because he's not 100 % when he comes back or he's knocked out of the flow the way he was playing before he got hurt, derails or affects the Lamar Jackson season that we were about to get with how he was playing in a new offense, that's like a tragedy. Because I think over the first month of the year, those first four games, if you just watch him down to down, the way he was playing the position, he again had the game in the palm of his hand in the way it felt like he did in 2024 over those first four games.

1:12:40Dave Helman: He's been sensational, dude. And I know that like Zay Flowers has been really good in the way that they've been scheming up. Zay Flowers has been really impressive. But it's the pass catching group is not like electric outside of that. He was just making this work with Matthew Hibner's getting reps and like just all the other secondary receivers that they've had. Like these Lamar Jackson was truly playing on like a really, really high level again. And not a lot of it was as a designed runner. You know, I think we came into the season being like, how much are they going to do any of that? It really has been him from the pocket dicing people up.

1:13:10Dave Helman: And so if he's going to miss more than a couple of games, that is going to get a little bit dangerous. I do have some faith, though, that I'm pretty bought in on the Jesse Minter defense. And I do think that like the more they play, the better they will be. And there's a chance that they can just be really good for a month and win some games and keep them alive. but I think to your point what you said what does Lamar look like when he comes back that to me I think is the bigger question can they then can they survive for three weeks I'm totally I would

1:13:35Robert Mays: totally believe that he just looks the same he comes back he's healthy he looks as good as he did at the start because I think some of this is the offense Declan Doyle the way that Zay is playing but I just firmly believe that when he's at his best I think he's just the best player in the league and when we like the way that we saw him play in 2024 and the way we saw him play over the first month like I just think that's the best player in football when he's playing like that and so if he doesn't get back to that level in week six seven whenever again that's like a tragedy in my mind I still think the Ravens will be very good I'm I think he probably can get back to that level but it's just at least worth monitoring and that the only reason I'm saying that is because of how scary good he was over the first four games.

1:14:18Derrik Klassen: And he was hampered most of last year, too. And hopefully if if he needs to sit for a week or even two weeks to keep that from repeating itself, by all means.

1:14:28Robert Mays: Let's get to one thing from Raiders Patriots. Derek, one thing you're watching Raiders Patriots. Lay it on me.

1:14:34Dave Helman: Yeah, this is I'm looking at the man coverage from the Patriots. And now this is interesting. They have been a defense that wants to do a lot of that. But no Christian Gonzalez. He did not play last week. and I don't think Carlton Davis has been practicing much this week and so that's going to be an issue for them I still think that this is a lot of what they want to do and I think I'm kind of of two minds about how that's going to work against the Raiders they don't have very many good man beating receivers but they have one who is really really difficult to deal with when Brock Bowers and they do a really good job of scheming him up whether it's putting him on stacks you know or as the second man in stack so they can't get hands on him early.

1:15:12Dave Helman: They can do switch verts, you know, switch stem stuff where it's a little bit hard for the DB to know exactly which way he's going to break and get him some open stuff. And I think why that would be particularly, I think, good for the Raiders potentially this week, especially if Gonzalez and Carlton Davis aren't going to play. Bowers proved last week that even against the longer corners like LeJarius Sneed, he can still separate at the catch point and make plays. The Patriots guys are small. Marcus Jones is not big. Kendall Vildor is not big. And so if Carlton Davis and Christian Gonzalez are not going to play, I still kind of expect the Patriots to do some of this because that's what they do.

1:15:47Dave Helman: And when you couple that with how well their edge guys crush the pocket, it's kind of what I said with, you know, the Rams game and the Bills. If you crush the pocket on Kirk Cousins and you hit him, he's going to leave you some dicey ones. And I think you don't want to play zone against Kirk because he'll dice you up. And so I think just how much they can get away with man, And I think that kind of decides how well this game goes for the Patriots defense.

1:16:10Derrik Klassen: I feel like it's flying under the radar. I think the Patriots defense is a step up from what it was last year. I'm curious to see what this looks like.

1:16:18Robert Mays: I think it's more just that they've maintained the level we saw in the final like four to six weeks of last season. And that was my question. It's like, was that just kind of a flash in the pan? Or were they going to carry that over? And the fact that for the most part, I think it's fair to say they have carried that over. They've looked like that group again, and I just wasn't sure if that was going to happen. We see that all the time where we had these spikes in the back half last year. Look at the Saints defense. The Saints defense was like a top five unit in the back half of last year. What has it been this year?

1:16:46Robert Mays: Like we have these kind of false signals all the time where, all right, was that real? Do we expect that to continue? And for the Patriots, I think that's exactly what's happened.

1:16:56Dave Helman: One of those teams drafted Gabe Aukis and the other didn't. I'm just saying.

1:17:02Robert Mays: spent a little bit of time on sicko street before we get out of here we don't have to spend a ton of time on this but colt steelers both of these teams are two and two but the vibes just feel like absolutely rancid in both of these places mike mccarthy coming out this week saying we got to clean the house up a little bit which is just the constant dialogue i'm having with my wife And then on the Colts side of it, both of these teams, in making the moves they did at quarterback, bringing back Rodgers, bringing back Daniel Jones coming off the Achilles, you're really trying to thread a needle. You're really trying to land a plane that is difficult to land, where all these other things, if they go right, is this the right guy to kind of take us where we want to go to make it all come together?

1:17:46Robert Mays: And you watch both of these offenses and just how uninspired and really disappointing in the Colts passing game specifically has looked. And their returns have not been there. Like, neither one of those plans is working in the way that these teams would have hoped in the best-case scenario. And I think that you're really feeling that right now for both the Steelers and the Colts.

1:18:07Derrik Klassen: I just can't think of a more sad place to be than, like, not bad, but without, like, a truly high ceiling. Like, I mean, these teams are 2-2. They're capable. I mean, the Steelers beat the Bengals. this year the Colts beat the Texans they're not bad football teams but where is this realistically going for either of them and that's just it's a it's a meh bland sad place to be in my opinion

1:18:35Dave Helman: and it's hard to see how it gets at least you know at least on the Steelers side like you have out of the four units in this game probably the only one that's like mildly above average in their defense you know their defense is solid but both of these offenses with Rodgers it's a week to week thing based on what does he want? What is he willing to throw this week? Every now and then you get the games where he's willing to be a little bit more aggressive and he's willing to chuck it down the field or it's schemed up super well. But those games are once every three games, once every four games. And then I think with the Colts, we've seen like they can't be any of what they want to be because I don't think Daniel Jones can push the ball down the field.

1:19:09Dave Helman: And even if he could, the one guy you wanted there to be able to do that stuff, Alec Pierce, is not healthy.

1:19:15Robert Mays: And so when you're pushing the ball down the field to Laquan Treadwell, it matters a little

1:19:18Dave Helman: bit less it's just not the same it's not hitting the same when when you're throwing it to those guys and so I think the the Colts have just struggled to be the offense they want to be at all and then the it just feels like with with the the Steelers offense you're just kind of spinning

1:19:31Derrik Klassen: the wheel and hoping you come up on a good thing well maybe it'll come up good this week based on sauce gardeners play in London and I appreciate him saying he was embarrassed to watch the tape back because it was a it was a brutal showing for a guy that you just traded two ones for so curious hopefully he looks more like the sauce they traded for in this matchup i think that's

1:19:55Robert Mays: probably if i were i think the colt situation is bleaker than what the current stealer situation is because the stealers aren't hot committed to anything they're not no exactly the stealers aren't committed to anything they you look at what the stealers have done like the way that the offensive line is capable of playing the way the run game has looked the way that the defense looks like I still think I feel about the Steelers kind of the exact same way I felt about the Steelers coming into the year like I still think there's enough to be excited about across the board with some of the young pieces that if you're looking at this on a multi-year level I'm not I still have some hope about what this core can be for the Steelers and just with a different quarterback and just a different plan offensively I think that's necessary like like Derek said I mean And if you're going to have moments like the Bengals game where there's a few schemed-up shots off play action where they're wide open and he's willing to throw them, I think that coupled with the run game, there's a path there.

1:20:47Robert Mays: I just don't know how willing they are to explore that path. For the Colts, that young core stuff is, there's not the same sort of optimism. Like, you don't have two first-round picks from the last couple years. You didn't have one last year. You don't have one next year. You're paying the quarterback over the next couple years. The regime is like running into a dead end. Like it just, it really does feel like every fear you could have about this turning the wrong way for the Colts and the bets you made just not coming up in your favor is already happening. And it's just going to leave the season feeling really lifeless.

1:21:22Robert Mays: And this group understanding that we've run out of road and it's time to start over. And I don't even think it's too early to start framing their season that way.

1:21:31Derrik Klassen: Well, when the expect when you need to reach the playoffs, like I'll say it again, both of these teams will probably have decent records. You know, I mean, the Steelers made the playoffs last year. The Colts I'm less sure about. Sure. OK. Even if that's true, though, I just there's talent here to win games on a week to week basis, especially in the NFL, I guess is my point. But again, when the mandate is to reach the playoffs for the first time in forever, and this is what we've seen through the first month, it's just, it's hard to drum up much enthusiasm.

1:22:02Robert Mays: Yeah. If I were a Colts fan, I'd be pretty bummed out right now. Like, to come down from what the first half of last season looked like to what the current version of the offense looks like, with Jones playing this way, with Pierce banged up, it's just, we're living in a very different world. For the Steelers, we're living in the same world. I guess that's where I land with it. For the Colts, we've transitioned to a different place that is sad. For the Steelers, we're in a very similar place that is sad.

1:22:26Derrik Klassen: I'm going to be watching Mike McCarthy like a hawk this week after he had to apologize for what he called Aaron Rodgers. Well, which, yeah, no apology necessary.

1:22:35Robert Mays: Aaron Rodgers was MFing him in the huddle. No, I know.

1:22:38Derrik Klassen: It's great, honestly.

1:22:40Robert Mays: I wouldn't have it any other way. All right, let's talk about what we want to know coming out of week five in the NFL. I'll start what I want to know coming out of Bears Packers. The Packers offense was functional last week against the Bucs. When they played against Atlanta, and this happens, where it's three weeks into the season, we don't know that much about any of these teams. The Falcons' pass rush completely dismantled the Packers on Thursday night two weeks ago. They couldn't operate as an offense. Packers go out, they get Lakin Tomlinson, but beyond the improvements on the offensive line, And it sounds like Kevin Zeitler is going to start for them this week at right guard, not playing against the Falcons.

1:23:20Robert Mays: We didn't know the Falcons had the best pass rush in the league, apparently. And so last week with no new piece on the offensive line going against a different opponent, the points weren't there because they shot themselves in the foot a couple of times, drops on third down, fumble on the goal line, but the offense could function again. And so what does that look like a week later? Are we back in a place where you're getting enough pass protection, where this isn't going to be a team that is just trying to keep itself from drowning over the course of the year. I still have questions about the ceiling of this group and just what the Packers are going to look like over the course of the entire season.

1:23:55Robert Mays: But I think another week where you at least have a foundation you can stand on offensively that you showed last week, that's what I'm paying attention to. Like, where does the Packers offense land? Is it closer to the group we saw a week ago against the Bucs? Or are we still having some of the same concerns that we had against the Falcons two weeks ago.

1:24:13Dave Helman: And I think that this is a defense where relatively, it's not a pass rush that you're worried about. Dennis Allen will throw good pressures and stuff at you. But I do think that this, if they're trying to not have to face what the Falcons have been, what the Vikings have been, like not having to face that style of defense and that good of a pass rush, I do think that they have a chance to live. I think this is also like, this is a really good opportunity for, Matthew Golden has shown some flashes the last few weeks. And I do think that if they really want to get things going, I think that they're going to have to get him unlocked, probably down the field.

1:24:45Robert Mays: Dave, one thing, or what do you want to know coming out of week five in the NFL?

1:24:49Derrik Klassen: I want to know if the Minnesota Vikings can show me anything on offense in about as advantageous a situation as you could ask for. And I know Justin Jefferson's health is iffy. We'll see. Obviously, it would be a big help for them if he can play. But after what we saw Atlanta do to the Saints, the Saints are 31st in the league in offensive DVO, or excuse me, defensive DVOA. After what we've seen from the Saints, I just need the Vikings to do anything on offense if I am going to believe that this 4-0 record, which we hope is a 5-0 record for them, is remotely worth trusting. Some history I wanted to look through.

1:25:29Derrik Klassen: Minnesota scored 86 points through four games. It's the fewest by a 4-0 team since the 0-9 Broncos, who conveniently enough started 6-0 and finished 8-8. that Denver team was like top five in defensive DVOA. They were like 20th in offensive DVOA. It gave out over a long enough period of time. It usually does. It usually does. So I went back and looked at a few more. Arizona also started 4-0 despite a very low point total. They were last in offensive DVOA in 2012. Fifth in defense, last in offense. They started 4-0. Do you know what their final record was? 5-11. Oh, man. So it can go real, real bad for you if you don't have something on offense, no matter how good your defense is.

1:26:19Derrik Klassen: And one more, if you're a Vikings fan looking for hope, the 06 Ravens, best defense in the league by DVOA, started 4-0, went 13-3. Their offense was 14th. It doesn't need to be great. I need more than what you've shown. So that's what I'm watching in this game. Like, what does Kyler Murray look like? They're playing in a dome where we're not worried about the weather. Show me anything. Score a touchdown. That's what I want to know. Can you score a touchdown against the second-worst defense in the league?

1:26:52Robert Mays: Before the fourth quarter. Derek, what do you want to know coming out of week five?

1:26:57Dave Helman: Titans, Texans. I just want to know if the Titans will push the ball down the field. Because it's the only way the Texans have lost any of their games this year is by teams beating them over the head with some of their explosive passes. But this is a Titans offense that 6.6 of their throws this season go beyond 20 yards. It is the second lowest in the league. I think only the Colts are below them. The Colts beat the Texans, but the Colts, if there's anything their passing offense can do, it's worked that intermediate 11 to 20 yard area. I'm not sure the Titans do that as well as the Colts do either.

1:27:29Dave Helman: And so I just think that this is going to have to be a game where they proved to me that they can really push the ball down the field. They've been a good pass protection unit. This is a really tough test to see if that's real or not. And so I just think that this is going to have to be a, you guys really need to push the ball down the field more than we've really seen from Cam Ward over the last like 12 games, let alone just this season.

1:27:52Robert Mays: All right. That's all we've got for the week five preview. If you're listening to this on the podcast feed, the Thursday night football recap, should be available. Bucks, Cowboys. If you're watching this on YouTube, it should also be available. I don't know why I made a distinction between those two things. If you are watching this on YouTube and you are new to the channel, which I assume a lot of you are, we would love it if you would like and subscribe. We're doing this all the time. There's plenty of stuff coming your way. So if you enjoyed this, I think you'll enjoy everything else that we're doing.

1:28:23Robert Mays: For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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