Week 5 Recap: 49ers & Vikings stay undefeated, Drake Maye goes off, WTF Bears?!

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2:07Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays, an eventful week five in the NFL. Let things off with just a quick chat about the Sunday night game. We'll dig into that in earnest on the hangover tomorrow. but then me, Dave, and Derek went long on the Seahawks-Niners game, a phenomenal game between two very good teams. Chatted a couple NFC North teams in attention, Lions, Vikings. Vikings are 5-0. Drake May with a monster day. Chatted about the ending of the Washington Giants game, which is still one of the most bizarre sequences I can remember in an NFL game.

2:44Robert Mays: Plenty of WTF moments in Week 5. Bears, Jags, Eagles, everything about Broncos, Chargers, and then got a little bit romantic about Jalen Warren and the season he has had so far. All of that with me, Dave, and Derek. Let's get to it right now.

3:11Robert Mays: A lot to dig into from the Week 5 slate. We're going to go through all of the important stuff that happened today. But let's start just with the ending of that Sunday night game. Obviously, you guys just watched that when in overtime. Your comment about the overtime drive, one hell of a drive. Two straight, one hell of a drives from the Ravens to get that thing over the top. That was such an impressive drive. I mean, just the stats, 14 plays, seven minutes off the clock in overtime, sure. Had us wondering what happens if you just take all 10 minutes of overtime on your first possession. That was a soul-snatching touchdown drive.

3:42Just take the ball home. Yeah, just walk out the tunnel on your way through. But, I mean, Snoop Huntley picked up a few big third downs there. The one to Zay Flowers I thought was particularly impressive. And then by the time you get down close to the end zone, Derrick Henry had like probably two runs where they were just moving the pile and you could just feel them leaning on the Falcons and you could feel how exhausted Atlanta's defense felt in that moment. And it just, it was very impressive. And, you know, we always say this, like we're working on the rest of the show while Sunday night's going on.

4:16and it felt like every time I checked in on this game, it just felt like Atlanta was in control. And for Baltimore to rally and take this thing on the road with a backup quarterback is a really, really impressive win.

4:32Robert Mays: Based on how the Falcons have been playing the last couple of weeks, if you're Baltimore, this is the exact type of game that would be easy to lose. Backup quarterback, the center you just traded for isn't ready yet. So your offensive line is still in sort of a makeshift place. And so for them to steal this one and come out at 4-1, hopefully with Lamar being back sooner rather than later, again, this is absolutely one that in a lot of situations you can drop, and that did not happen. They were up 8. Atlanta was up 8 with 6 1⁄2 minutes to play, and that's what I'm talking about. I looked up, and I was like, okay, this is a game, but I feel good about Atlanta holding on to this, and Baltimore had other plans.

5:09Dave Helman: They also finished it in, like, that's the entire ethos of their team is to be able to run out the clock the way that they did. And also, like, with the overtime rules now, where even if you score a touchdown, the other team gets it back, there is a lot of value of draining, what, at least six, six and a half minutes off of the clock if you can, and they drained, like, a little bit over seven, I believe. And so that is, like, in the modern NFL, the perfect overtime drive short of what Dave said of, like, literally running out the clock and getting all 10 minutes, which is pretty hard to do even if the Bucs did, you know, did it on Thursday night.

5:40Robert Mays: We're going to dig into this game in earnest tomorrow on the hangover. We'll be hitting Ravens, Falcons from Sunday night. We'll be chatting about Bengals, Dolphins, and we'll also be talking about Texans, Titans, including a full breakdown of the Marvin Harrison Jr. trade. We have some thoughts, but didn't want to shoehorn that into the Sunday night recap. We're going to sit with that a little bit. So those are the three games that we will be hitting tomorrow, like we typically do. Sunday night game is usually how we kick off the hangover, plus a couple more games. So that is what is on tap on the Monday into Tuesday show.

6:10Robert Mays: Let's kick things off with this recap. talking about the 49ers knocking off the Seattle Seahawks 32 to 29. The Niners are now five and oh, Seattle falls to three and two on the season. Where do you want to start this conversation? What is your lasting image of this game? The fact that it was bizarre as shit. The fact that here's, here's what I'll say. And I'm curious if you think I'm being a hater, an entertaining game. And at times a really well-played game. Like Brock Purdy made an impression on me in this game. Jackson Smith and Jigba is obviously incredible. Like there were pockets of really high level football played here.

6:51But for arguably the two best teams in the NFL to play a game decided in the final two minutes by three points, not a particularly good game. Like when you combine for seven turnovers, I'm left wanting when you're talking about like really deciding who the best team was.

7:09Robert Mays: I don't mind it that much because I do think it was a lot of, I was going to say it was a lot of very good defensive plays. It was a combination. I think there were some tough offensive moments. I mean, a couple of the Darnold picks are as much bad choices as they are great defense. But I think I still come away believing in the overall quality of this. It kind of reminds me a little bit. It's not exactly the same. But when we think back on the Rams-Chiefs Monday night game from 2018 and the amount of points scored in that game, there were multiple defensive touchdowns in that game. And so you can have a little bit of sloppiness and still be a very good team overall.

7:41Robert Mays: I think that's the case of both of these. As iconic as that game was, though, when I think about that Rams-Chiefs game, I'm just like, what a bunch of goofy bullshit happened in that game. And, like, I have no doubt in my mind that these are both really good teams. And I said it right when the game ended. The Niners, not only are they 5-0, they went to Lumen and beat the Seahawks. And they, I don't care what the Rams' travel arrangements were, they beat the shit out of the Rams to start the year. that's two as good resume building wins as you could ask for in the NFL for five weeks and so I think I think some of it was really weird and I wish it had just been a tighter game I wish it had been I wish there hadn't been so many moments where I was like well that was really stupid but still a highly entertaining game and a very impressive win for the 49ers just to put a point on how weird the game was I looked this up immediately after it ended we had 28 combined first downs between the Niners and the Seahawks in this game and 61 combined points.

8:38Robert Mays: Those two things in tandem have happened three times in an NFL game in the past 27 seasons. Since 2000, that's happened three times. The last time it happened was during a Bengals-Browns game in 2013 that we had that few first downs and that many points. And so if you came away from watching that game thinking, man, what a weird game. You would be correct about that. We do not see that type of game in the NFL very often. It's about once every 15-ish years. 18-yard touchdown drive for San Francisco, 24-yard touchdown drive for Seattle, 11-yard touchdown drive for San Francisco, fumble return touchdown for San Francisco, 0-yard touchdown drive, 23-yard touchdown drive for Seattle after the Debo, or excuse me, after the Purdy fumble.

9:25Yeah, I mean, it was kind of a shit show and it's still a great game but i i think that's worth saying derrick what's your

9:31Dave Helman: answer to that question yeah because it was such a shit show i think i was actually weirdly impressed that the niners were able to win the game that they did like i i think in a lot of ways like there have been stretches where they've been a team that can win from behind and win games that are weird and stuff like that but for the most part shanahan offenses have been like they are best when they can get the ball rolling early defense can pass rush and they can like really snowball on you. This was a really bizarre game and they did get help from their defense, obviously, but there were stretches where like some of the two high pressures that Seattle were calling were really giving pretty issues.

10:03Dave Helman: The two trap call where they get him on the interception, like they had some good stuff on the Seattle defense, but the fact that you get proof of concept with Mike Evans in like every way, and we already have seen that, right? But you have the goal line drive where he makes just an insane grab on a slant over one of the DBs. They have another play later in the game where exactly what we talked about coming into the week, where he's the single receiver on one by three, the safety poaches away and they throw him, they throw him like a deep back shoulder ball. You hit one or two dig routes over the middle to Mike Evans.

10:31Dave Helman: Like you, they wanted a player who could come in, in the passing game and say, Hey, Kyle Shanahan, you don't have to scheme it up every time. Purdy, you don't have to go make a play every time outside of the pocket. We can just find the huge guy to go make a play for us. And he did that for them. And so the fact that they could win that game that way and the last little bit of it, they ran the ball better in this game than I thought they would. Like there were stretches where it really, really worked for them, where I thought this was a Seattle front that there was a chance that they could just dominate them.

10:59Dave Helman: And the 49ers did not let that happen to them.

11:03Robert Mays: The last two drives the Niners had, it was the question we started the preview conversation with. Why will this be different for the Niners offense in this game than it was the last couple times we saw these two teams play in week 18 and in the playoffs those last two drives I think are where you felt the difference for them to go up 29 26 and then for them to put the game away okay so they drive or they go up 29 26 Derek already pointed out one of the plays but there was a third and 10 big time completion to Evans where he hits like a big in breaker Ernest Jones steps up just a tiny bit just a little tiny bit because of the shallow that's coming Purdy's willing to let that thing rip.

11:42Robert Mays: It's a conversion. And then like Derek just mentioned, second and 21 after an intentional grounding from Purdy, they throw that back shoulder ball to Mike Evans. So not only is it the type of play that no receiver on the Niners is making last year deep outside the numbers like we talked about, it's a second and 21. You're behind the sticks. The drive should probably be over. I'm going to give this guy a chance and he's going to go make a play for me. So those two catches, in my opinion, just that drive in general for them to go down and score, that feels different. And then to put the game away, that final drive, when you have at 29-29, they have two chunk runs to start the drive.

12:24Robert Mays: It's an 8-yarder and then a 13-yarder. You have an 11-yarder to Kalen Black. Their ability to kind of impose their will on the ground in multiple different moments in this game, San Francisco, that to me is what felt the most different. And some of it, the Seahawks didn't play that many light boxes in this game, but they did play mostly neutral boxes. And so I think a good way to look at this is on blocked box runs. So plays where you have as many blockers as they have defenders in the box. What did the performance look like? In the playoffs last year, the Niners had a 17.6 % success rate on those runs.

12:57Robert Mays: In week 18, it was 25%. In this game, it was 47.8%. And you felt that. That to me, other than the Evans stuff, was the biggest difference between this version of the Niners and the one we saw at the end of last season. And Derek, those were the crucial differences. Like those were the things they needed to be able to do against this team. And so even if it was an uneven performance overall, even if the Seahawks made them earn it almost like for 90 % of this entire game, when it came down to it, those final drives, those were the differences we wanted to see. And those are the differences that we saw.

13:32Dave Helman: And it was beautiful because the run game last year was just them slamming Christian McCaffrey into a wall three yards at a time absolutely no chance they had nothing and now i think and you know dave pointed this out when we were doing the preview the interior of the offensive line is playing better than it really has at any point it was a mixed bag today they were very good in the run game and connor colby yes pass protection it's seattle yeah pass pro was a different yeah right but the fact that you won somewhere yes what you won somewhere when you were supposed to lose everywhere i do think is some amount of improvement absolutely so i think that the fact that the run game could win that way and then I even I do want to give Purdy some credit on I think it was the first Christian McCaffrey touchdown Purdy checks into that because the front that Seattle is in they have like a two-eye and just inside the left guard and then the next guy on the defensive line is like way out in the d-gap like outside of a receiver who's near the line of scrimmage and Purdy's like well shoot let's just run it into the gap and they did that and they they climbed to it well and had some really good combo blocks and they got him into the end zone like the fact that you can kind of obviously this offense has always had checks in the offense they can do that but the fact that they're winning schematically that way but then also still having moments where they're just not letting themselves get pushed around and being able to generate runs late in the game like the fact that again it doesn't have to just be can Purdy make six plays for us outside of the pocket the fact that they've got the tools that you would want to see from a Shanahan offense does make them very very scary and he did make a couple of those plays that he right but it's just not only that now that is going to be a necessary part of the

15:03Robert Mays: equation for them when they're playing at their best. You want to just be able to roll on schedule and within structure. And we've seen this offense show they're capable of doing that. That's what they look like at their best. But against this defense, it's never going to look like that. And so you need for him to be able to make a couple of those out of structure creation plays. And that was the touchdown to Cooks. Like he makes that play happen. I know y 'all, y 'all broke down a lot of the plays, but that entire touchdown drive to go up 29, 26 was incredible. And like outside of the turnovers, if I'm looking for snapshots to remember this game by getting surge and having explosive runs against this front, even if it was inconsistent, that's one.

15:43But that touchdown drive, the the the intentional grounding where Iman Worry just did not bite on the boot fake at all and was right in his face. That was his only incompletion of that drive. He hit Evans on the on the 15 yarder on on first and 20, which I did want to make a note. I loved the broadcast. Such a great shot. Evans, the play we already showed where Okada just crushed him on the inbreaker. He's playing with broken ribs. Yeah. And they zoomed in on Mike Evans face after that catch. And he looked like he was about to cry. And I was like, yeah, holy shit. Like these guys play through a lot of stuff.

16:19And you can kind of forget that over the course of a game from like the 30 ,000 foot broadcast view. but the close-up of his face in that moment, I was like, this dude is gutting through some really nasty shit to play this well.

16:32Robert Mays: We didn't need this season from Mike Evans to appreciate how legendary of a player Mike Evans is and what he's done in his career, but I do think sometimes it's helpful when guys, Brady, Brady going to Tampa is an example of this to me, obviously on a different level, but when a guy changes circumstances and you kind of have to look at him a little bit differently and we control for so many of the different variables, And it's like, oh, man, yeah, this guy, like, even if you take him and put him in a different spot, what an incredible player he is. And so Mike Evans doing this on this team in these moments and us seeing him contribute to this sort of offense that just playing with broken ribs like that, toughing that stuff out, how important he was for the Niners to win this game.

17:13Robert Mays: The moment where he turns Trayvon Diggs around to look at the back of his jersey, like Mike Evans is running up the score on his legacy so far this season. And I find that very beautiful. I'm very happy for all the love Mike Evans is getting here. But again, on that drive, like Purdy on the touchdown to Cooks, he buys time and like creates that himself. The two point conversion to Mike Evans, like he did so much stuff out of structure in addition to like, yeah, like to be able to buy time like that against a rush like Seattle's and then make a throw like that under duress. and then to do it again on the two-point conversion, in addition to standing in the pocket and ripping five or six really impressive throws against this defense, I thought Brock Purdy was awesome in this game.

17:56Even with, you know, I'm sure he wants the interception to Nehemiah Pritchett back early in the third quarter. Not to say he was perfect, but he is. It's a great call.

18:04Robert Mays: Like, if you just watch how that call unfolds, it's exactly what you want if you're Seattle. It's an overload pressure to the offense's right side. He tries to come off of it quickly. And it's kind of like a Palms-y coverage, Derek, where he probably thinks it's like some sort of quarters and then Pritchett comes off of it. And so when you think about the beats of that play as a defense, rush coverage tied together, it's exactly how you want that play to unfold. And so it's a bad result from the quarterback, but it's also just perfect defense on multiple different levels.

18:34Dave Helman: Which even if you have a good day, the Seahawks are going to do that. Exactly. I love that call because it's for a couple of reasons I love that call. One, when you're doing it, and I don't know if Pritchett was freestyling. I don't know if they would like taught it this way for this game, but he's usually when you play palms, it's like the cornerback is in squat technique. So he's like back a little bit more to the sideline. He's trying to eye the quarterback and stuff. But on that play, he's like backpedaling and looks like he's more playing like a deep third zone. And then he like snaps and turns and comes off of it.

19:02Dave Helman: And so it never really looks like he's playing the squat corner to Purdy until he's driving on the ball. And so I think you have that little nugget, which I thought was interesting and cool. It's really more like a trap call. The other element of it, I'm sure you guys remember this in 2024, early on, the Niners played the Vikings in like week three or something like that. I do. This was the first week that Brian Flores was like, all of my palms pressures. I'm turning them up to 10 and Purdy had nothing for it. And so I thought that that was interesting that the Seahawks were like, we saw that game.

19:32Dave Helman: We're going to play a little bit more of that stuff because that's Seahawks do some of that, but that's not really their bread and butter. But they were going to it a good number of times in this game.

19:40Robert Mays: all this being said about how impressive a win it is for the Niners, the Seahawks very much had a chance to win this game. If we have a down the line shot of that Cooper cup play, there is a chance that Seattle we're sitting here talking about how the Seahawks miraculously were able to overcome. How many turnovers did they have for four turnovers and ultimately win this game for turnovers? One of which, like you said, was just a touchdown, like not even a short field, just a touchdown. so for them to be as close as they were I would I'd be frustrated if I was a Seahawks fan because you shouldn't turn the ball over four times and Sam Darnold unfortunately this is more of a trend than you would prefer the turnover worthy plays and the the negative plays I think he threw he threw picks on his first attempts of each half after throwing a pick on his first attempt of the Chargers game last week that would trouble me but to be as close as they were to pulling this out of the fire despite everything that went wrong.

20:39I think that's weirdly encouraging, even though they need to clean it up.

20:43Robert Mays: On defense, I think that's where I sit with it. Again, watching them get pushed around is kind of, would be overstating it, but watch them getting pushed around situationally when the touchdown, the 11-yard McCaffrey touchdown is a perfect example. On that play, it's actually a really cool thought process from San Francisco. They're in 11 personnel, and so Seattle matches it with light people, But Evans is so condensed on that play that he almost becomes a tight end the way that they're blocking it, and it turns into an 11-yard touchdown. The Seahawks, the brilliance with the Seahawks so often is that because they can live in this light-body world and still stop the run no matter how you're approaching them.

21:24Robert Mays: And so to watch it happen that way where the Niners, again, situationally with some personnel groupings were able to run the ball consistently, that is something maybe just to file away that does feel a little bit different. but we've seen this team be so good on that front. I'm not really worried about it. The one thing I would come away from with this game in Seattle, when we're considering like what we thought about them potentially coming into the year and then what it's looked like so far and what it looked like in this game, I'm surprised that the offensive line looked as out of sorts as it did against the Niners front.

21:55Robert Mays: Because this was a group that had continuity coming into this season. They were bringing back all these guys, even with a new offensive coordinator. The thought was, is this going to be the best version we have seen from the Seahawks offensive line in years and years and years when you consider all the circumstances? And that just didn't happen today. Like there were a lot of plays where the Niners were really kind of chewing them up up front. That would be the thing if I were a Seahawks fan being like, OK, is that something to worry about long term? Overall, I don't think you watch this game and think the sky is falling or we should be really worried about a lot of stuff.

22:27Robert Mays: But that was the one element of what I saw from the Seahawks in this game that might give me a little bit of pause about what the rest of the season would look like. You think that's unfair, Derek?

22:37Dave Helman: I think there was a little bit of that. I will say Grayson Holton, the more the season goes on, is starting to play very well. He's the one who forces the fumble on the touchdown that they get. And he had a huge sack in this game. Yes. Keon White was good in this game. Keon White's been good. They got Michael Williams back in this game. And so there's still no Nick Bosa. but I do think the front is probably going to be better than it than it was in week one and so I I'll at least give Seattle a little bit more time because I do think some of the discombobulation with the offense overall ends up hurting the offensive line like when your backs are constantly fumbling and your quarterback is throwing a pick on the first drive of the game and you can't get into the rhythm you want I do think that hurts you a little bit and honestly to Dave's point about like Sam Darnold just like all of these turnovers they are definitely like that's just who he is they won the Super Bowl with him leading the NFL in turnovers last year.

23:25Dave Helman: And I would say, even though we knew that that going in, it's pretty hard to repeat doing that. Like that, that's a really, really tough way to live if he's going to continue to do this. And I do feel like right now the problem is worse than it was last year, or at least you were getting more of the positives to kind of offset it. And I do feel like the offense is a little bit more stop and start for various reasons, but I do think partly because of that right now. What do you think of the other reasons? I mean I do think it's him just missing time like that's gonna hurt but I don't know I guess I do think that what you pointed out specifically with Kubiak last year his situational play calling I don't think you feel as much of that with Brian Fleury and that's not to say that he's like terrible at it but Kubiak did really get them out of some jams last year in a way that I don't know if I always feel for them it just feels like there are a bit fewer like easy completions especially to the ancillary players who aren't JSN.

24:17Robert Mays: I think that's fair. I mean, we really didn't see many of those today at all. I mean, I hear you, but I mean, did like JSN's target share last year was out of this world. It was off the charts. I mean, this like he's good enough that he can get away with it. But I feel like that's been the story for the Seahawks over the last couple of years. More than anything, and you can call this copium if you want to. I just think the Seahawks will look like a different team when their preferred running backs are available yeah like that's gonna be a big part of this for sure to not have either one and obviously we knew they were going to be without Charbonnet but to lose Jadarian Price for a significant period of time after knowing you weren't going to have Charbonnet for six weeks you can just feel how toothless they are and like Emmanuel Wilson's had some nice moments and he does what he can but you're downgraded there and then you're just you're not getting anything from george helani at all to this point and so if i was a seahawks fan i would be telling myself that will probably look like a much different offense when i mean both of those guys will be available i would hope pretty soon i know like price has still got a few weeks on injured reserve charbonnet is ramping up but if i was a seahawks fan i'd be like all right within the month i have optimism that those guys will be available and this will look a lot more than a lot better than it does right now Derek I'm really glad you mentioned Grayson Halton because I feel like he's a really important player for a bunch of different reasons beyond what he did in this game the main concern I had about the Niners coming into this season was what is the interior of the defensive line going to look like it's still a pretty thin group overall I mean they've just had they had injuries on top of the concerns we had about those young guys taking a step.

25:59Robert Mays: But the fact that C.J. West, Alfred Collins, it hasn't mattered that those players that we thought were going to be foundational and central to just the Niners' defensive plan this year, like last year into this year, those guys have been a non-factor for injury reasons and they're not a part of the equation. The fact that that hasn't mattered in part because Halton has played so well, it's huge. Like it's a pivotal thing to have happened because there is a chance that those swings and misses so far in the interior of the defensive line would have been enough to torpedo your season. And him specifically on top of, you know, whatever you're getting from Osa Degizua, but that wouldn't have been enough.

26:39Robert Mays: And so Halton specifically kind of being able to keep this thing held together when it seemed like that entire position group, especially against the run, would have just been an absolute nightmare this year has been really, really big for this team.

26:53Dave Helman: if it was just Osa it would not have been enough and I actually do it's funny Halton being the one who has who has really come on for them uh rather than you know Alfred Collins who I know obviously he's missed some time but Collins is more of a sit there take some space sort of player Halton's got a little bit more like juice get in the backfield which like that really is what compliments these linebackers the best like if you create some sort of window Dre Greenlaw's gonna find it Fred Warren's gonna find it even I think Jalen Duggar's gonna find it if you give him a little bit of space like I just think these guys fit into the chaos incredibly well when you can create it and so the fact that he's come on has been really really huge for them and then the other guy I want to shout out on defense getting Malik Mustafa back in the lineup that dude was on a war path today he had multiple shots I think at least two that I can remember both were on Rashid Shahid or no the first one was on Cooper Cup the second one was on Rashid Shahid just flying out of the roof to hit somebody at the sticks and one of them was a big third down stop like so So the fact that he's been back in the lineup and you can feel the attitude again in the defense, I think that to me is what makes them feel like the Niners again.

27:57Jair Brown had a moment like that too late in the game. I think it was like a Darnold check down to Helani on third and six, and Jair Brown just smacked the bejesus out of him. Yeah, that is a wonderful point, Derek. They played with that really inspiring physicality and aggressiveness that the great Niners teams looked like. And the crazy thing is they lost Greenlaw. Like so much of that has been too much of that. So much of that has been Greenlaw over the years. And they lost him pretty early in this game and still played that way, which also speaks to what a batshit game this was, that Greenlaw got tossed for headbutting Ernest Jones.

28:36And that's item 15 on the list of things to talk about.

28:40Robert Mays: Do we want to spend any more time talking about the end of the game? I mean, the JSN, I wouldn't even call it a drop. the JSN incompletion on the corner route that falls incomplete and forces them into that fourth down. If either of those plays go slightly differently, we may be talking about the Seahawks winning this game.

28:59Dave Helman: That was like JSN got smacked a play or two before that, so I wonder if that had anything to do with it. I think that this was just sometimes the ball doesn't bounce your way at the end. Yes.

29:10Robert Mays: Listen, there is no part of my being that's going to put any of this on Jackson Smith and Jimbo, considering the game again that he had. I hope even the most diehard Seahawks fans are like, ah, you're allowed a Mulligan or two. Yes, correct. The touchdown he scored is an insane play. Like when you think about where he catches that ball and where Fred Warner specifically is in relation to him when he catches that ball, just a ridiculous player. I think Derek's point though, this is the last thing we have to say about this game, about getting the ancillary pieces more involved, that would be the other part.

29:45Robert Mays: of if you're trying to build a case for why the Seattle offense would just be a better unit and more consistent unit this year than they were last year. The offensive line continuity was a big part of that, but the other part of it was, oh man, another year of A.J. Barner, Elijah Arroyo in year two, a full off season of Rashid Shahid. Like we're going to get these guys way more involved in the offense than we did. And so far, it just hasn't really felt like that. It's felt like the same helping we got of JSN last year. And it's a long season. Again, you have a new coordinator trying to incorporate some of this stuff.

30:19Robert Mays: But those two elements, the offensive line continuity and those ancillary pass catchers being a bigger factor for this team, that hasn't really happened up to this point. All right. Let's talk about some of the other performances that really jumped out today. It is time for You Have My Attention. Gentlemen, now you have my attention. the Minnesota Vikings are now 5-0 they are one of two 5-0 teams in the NFL after knocking off the Saints 23-13 the Vikings at 5-0 and your offense showing a little bit more life today than it has in previous weeks you guys officially have our attention our question on the preview show is can the offense show enough to make you want to take this team a little more seriously what is your answer to that question?

31:06My answer is beggars can't be choosers. I said on Friday, show me something. Okay, I will say this, though. I will say this. Take the morsels. I think it is worth saying this was a far bigger beatdown than the score suggests. This was a dominant performance by the Minnesota Vikings. They lost 17 expected points on two snaps in this game. I mean, and that's part of it. I get it. But they lost the ball on the plus seven and on the plus 12. Bare minimum, those are going to be field goals. At least one you think has a chance to become a touchdown. And one of them becomes the Saints' only touchdown of the day.

31:54And so without those, even if only one of those things happens, you're talking like 30 to 13 or like 26 to 7 or something. And I think this looks a little more impressive. I thought the Vikings ran the ball really well. And most importantly, you know what? All right. I am being diplomatic. If Kyler Murray makes decisions as well most of the time as he did in this game, I think the Vikings will be pretty good. Like I was pretty impressed with Kyler Murray's like down-to-down decision making and making the plays that were there for him to make. Certainly not spectacular, but like we said it all offseason.

32:32If Kyler Murray is just fine, this will probably be a pretty good team. And I think I believe that. And I think he showed us glimpses of that in this game.

32:39Dave Helman: And I don't even think just decision making. Actually, I mean, I think you're right on the decision making. I think his first 11 passes, 12 passes, he completed all of them. And some of that was check downs and stuff. But he did make some really impressive plays going where he needed to with the ball. but I do think the other part of it for me that I kind of got excited about was you saw Kyler Murray the athlete again. It was the playmaking. The playmaking is what I would, yeah, that's what I would get excited about. He had seven scrambles in this game for 54 yards and three first downs, which is like double what he had in the previous two starts that he had made combined.

33:14Dave Helman: And then the last thing, even one of those first downs that, or one of those scrambles that he did not run for a first down, it was when they were at about midfield and he turned what, if it was an in completion what could have been a 61 yard field goal into a makeable 55 yard field goal which they did make and like you you're gonna need those little bits of him squeezing out points like that uh for what is i think an offense that can be nice but it's probably gonna still be imperfect and so the fact that you got him having those floor raising plays again is like all right if he can do that and jefferson can make three insane catches i'm glad you said that offense the next part i was gonna say is he's also able and willing to just put the ball in Justin Jefferson's vicinity, which you cannot take for granted after the last year or so of Vikings football.

33:57Robert Mays: Absolutely not. It just, I think, I come away from this game just with questions about how it's all going to fit together in the long run. Because I'm with you, Derek. I think the most encouraging part of what Kyler gave you in this game was the playmaking. It was what he was doing as a scramble, but also just what he was doing as a play extender and an improviser. I mean, the first, the completion he had to Jefferson for 19 yards in the first quarter, that's a play where Jefferson snaps off the crosser on a scramble drill and it's a chunk gain. And so that type of stuff is going to happen if he's extending plays.

34:28Robert Mays: But some of the stuff in structure still isn't really there. And when we've seen the Vikings at their best, right? Sam Darnold did a little bit off schedule, but this was a, this guy is going to stand in the pocket. He's going to throw the ball where we want him to throw the ball and we're going to get some explosives off of it. He's going to make some mistakes in the long run, but it's a lot of stuff happening within the structure of the offense combined with what we are in defense that equation kind of changes a little bit if Kyler Murray is going to play like this I think what will make me feel good about the overall formula in the long run Derek is if you're combining the creation plays the willingness to give Justin Jefferson three or four chances a game which he's going to make the thing that I want to kind of create some steadiness for the offense to go along with that is what you find in the run game.

35:17Robert Mays: And even if it hasn't been good so far, I think you're potentially seeing enough flashes from it. And especially when the offensive line gets healthy. Yeah. But the fact that Donovan Jackson and Derrissaw didn't play in this game. They didn't have the left side of their line. The left side of the line. And I think that what you've seen is that when they're running the ball downhill out of some of this two-back stuff, I actually think that's when the run game looks the best. And so I still think they're finding their footing in that area. And if they can, and then you combine it with some splash plays from the quarterback in 18, that to me might feel like enough combined with the defense to make this thing dangerous.

35:54I would go as far as to say, I thought the running game was outright good in this game, especially because the Derrissaw's out, Donovan Jackson's done for the year, Jordan Mason's still on IR as well. Like, I think you're going to be limited in your explosiveness because Aaron Jones is your running back. And that's just, it is what it is.

36:10Robert Mays: They got some decent gashes, but they finished with a 38.5 % rushing success rate against arguably the worst run defense in the NFL so far this year. Like, I don't know where I land with it. Again, I think there are enough moments to potentially give me some hope about what this thing looks like in the long run. But right now, I wouldn't say it's been good. When Sanker returned that fumble, and I mean, they missed the PAT, so they should have been down, but it's tied. that was the other the other thing that kind of sparked my interest and got my attention was they went right back down the field and retook the lead like five or six plays and a lot of that was the running game like jones ripped off a 20 yard gain on that drive and then they got to the plus 10 and just bullied the shit out of the saints for a touchdown that's what i'm saying there were flashes if they're like there were five or six runs in this game where it's just like okay that's the vision for what this thing can be if you want to call it flashes that's fine but there were things to be encouraged about considering what they are working without right now.

37:09That Jones touchdown is a perfect example. They lost Hawkinson on the second snap of this game too, by the way. So like a pretty... And Josh Oliver's already hurt. And so you're really depleted a tight end. A pretty depleted offense moved the ball well enough. Certainly not exciting, but encouraging at least.

37:26Robert Mays: That Jones touchdown is a perfect example. That's just like, we're pulling a guard. We're running power. We're going down. We're getting downhill, you know? I guess it was the fullback on that play, but... oh no it's a guard yeah it's a yeah it's a guard I was off from the end zone angle yes

37:39Dave Helman: in the middle of the third quarter they had like a really nice trap run yeah I think if you're not going to be a team that can just like outright move people you need to have a little bit of we're pulling guards and we're doing two back stuff and it's a little bit weird and all that stuff and so I do think you saw some moments and I still think they're trying to work on how clean that that stuff is going to be the Hawkinson thing is huge though because obviously having Jefferson back eases some of the pain but he had been Kyler Murray's favorite target the previous two games. Like he, Kyler Murray was throwing him the ball all over the middle of the field.

38:08Dave Helman: And so the fact that obviously he misses some time is going to be tough, but I, this game did make me more encouraged. I do still want to see it against a defense that has not been one of the five worst defenses in the NFL this year. But I think after last week where it was like, oh, they should beat the hell out of the Dolphins and they really didn't until like the fourth quarter. The fact that you actually made a bad defense look bad, that is some amount of encouraging. I'm not willing to crown the Vikings off this performance. But again, I asked the question, can you do anything? And if they win this game like 12 to 6, I'm just like, I don't care.

38:42Screw it. There's nothing you could do to make me feel better about this. I don't care what your record is. They should have scored 30 in this game. They should have. And they could have. And it was enough to make me encouraged and excited to see more.

38:54Robert Mays: That trap run you're talking about, Derek, that was on the same drive as when they scored that touchdown on the power. I mean, that was on the same drive. We saw them stack a couple of those runs together. The other part that, again, I want to see it maybe against a slightly different defense, even if it's impressive in this game because you're down two starting offensive linemen. The Saints finished with a 28 % pressure rate on a 36 % blitz rate and had a 3.09 time to throw. And when the Vikings had a 3.09 time to throw. That shouldn't happen.

39:26Dave Helman: That's hard to do.

39:27Robert Mays: That shouldn't happen. And you felt that in this game. The pass pro for the Vikings was very good, even with two offensive linemen out. The play that sticks out to me that, like, is the perfect example of this. We're tied at 13. There's two minutes left in the third quarter. Kyra Murray hops around in the pocket for six and a half seconds on that play. That's not an exaggeration. That's the actual recorded time on NextGen, and he finds Jones for a 32-yard game. Like, that's great. It's good that you have a quarterback who can do stuff deep into the down. I want to see them be able to stack some of these performances together against teams that are not the New Orleans.

40:03You could see the light bulb click on in his head where he danced enough and looked for a rushing lane for long enough that he suddenly realized, like, wait, we're like seven seconds into this play. Somebody's probably open. And he was like, all right, I guess I'll throw. And the guy was all by himself.

40:18Robert Mays: Anything to say about the Vikings defense in this game that we haven't really already said this season? Because to me, it feels like more of the same.

40:25Dave Helman: No, this is just when you're a young quarterback in the league, you're going to get baptized. And this is who does it. And I just you you could see by the end of the game, Tyler Shuck did not really want to participate against some of the blitz stuff, which like, yeah, you have a banged up offensive line. You're being blitzed at an unholy rate. You guys cannot block any of it up. And so there was like the pick he throws at the end where they do like brush pretty heavy against him. It doesn't actually even get home like they actually pick it up really well. And he just kind of like chucks up a go ball, what I think was supposed to be maybe a double move to Chris Olave.

40:57Dave Helman: And like, he's not under pressure, but I think he's just kind of under the assumption that like, this is all we got against the Blitz at this point. And the game is pretty much just over after that. And so I don't think it really affects how I change about Tyler Shuck long term or really changes what I think about the Minnesota Vikings defense. But there is something kind of fun about watching like a young quarterback have to go through their first trial by fire of Brian Flores.

41:21Robert Mays: The first play of the game, we talked about this, Derek, with I can't remember after which game it was on the hangover, just leaning into the idea of how much the Vikings dictate how the game is played on that side of the ball. Like they're always the ones dictating how the game is played when they're on defense. The opening play of the game, Cashman comes untouched through the B gap. Shuck has to dump it down to check it down to Kamara and Van Ginkle drops him for a five-yard loss. It's the first play of the game. And that's just how a lot of the possessions look against them. They're also doing some funky ass shit on the back end of some of these plays.

41:55Robert Mays: They had a seven-man pressure where they were playing like it kind of looked like one side of a cover three to the right side. It wasn't cover zero. Like it wasn't man even though it was a seven-man pressure. Like their ability to do some of that stuff where they're in theory vacating so many voids you should be able to throw the ball in. But no one seems to be able to find them. And then when you go back and actually watch either the dots or the all 22, you want it to be a mistake the quarterback is making where he's like, man, that this guy's wide open. Like, how can you not find this? But so often you have droppers in the exact zones you should be in the exact situations, the exact areas you should be able to access.

42:38Robert Mays: Like what they're doing right now in some of these pressures and just how dialed in they seem to be taking away the exact routes they have to, given what the pressure should open up is crazy. Like it just he has been on an absolute heater for the last five games. It's remarkable.

42:55Dave Helman: Well, and he I think Mark of a great coach knows his own tendencies. So the first third down of this game. What's the whole thing with Brian Flores? They're going to bring pressure. It's going to be some weird zone drop, all this stuff. Nope. They play man free and Tyler Shuck has no idea what's going on. And he like I think he ends up dirtying the ball. And so like knowing your own tendencies of like immediately throwing the quarterback off rhythm of like, oh, we kind of prepped for this thing all week and immediately they're giving me something different. Like you just you get them unsettled immediately.

43:21Dave Helman: The only obviously like guys like Wink Martindale have been like crazy with the blitz stuff. But in my mind, the only thing that really feels as insane and loose as Brian Flores is like Pete Clemson, Brent Venables, where it just like they're doing stuff that is not holy. It is not in the Bible. And they're still getting away with it. And that's what to do it at the NFL level. I was going to say that's that's a little easier when you've got when you've got Isaiah Simmons in the college and like all these. place but future NFL players on your team going against you know a middling pit team sorry to pit fans but yeah I think it's a different animal doing it in the NFL I mean he's making these

44:00Robert Mays: offenses look like middling ACC teams which is pretty impressive let's get to our next one here the Detroit Lions put up 45 points in a win against the Cardinals they go three and out on their first three possessions and then just go on a touchdown spree after that. I know it's the Cardinals defense. It's been struggling, but watching the Lions offense and watching them hit this gear is just such a reminder of what they're capable of when they're humming. And so the Lions put up 45 against the Cardinals and really just putting their foot on their throat in like the final three quarters of this game.

44:38Robert Mays: You have our attention. Even if it's fake because the Cardinals aren't very good, it was still refreshing to see the Lions win a game this way. They have not played a stress-free game yet. Like, they've either lost or been in a nail-biter all the way down to the wire. And so, like, the Lions are at a point where you can't take for granted the opportunity to kick the shit out of somebody. So it doesn't drastically change my opinion of the Lions, but it still means something for them to put in a performance like this, especially heading into their bye week. They're off in week six. So to get a week off coming off of performance like this, I'm sure is a relief for a lot of people in that building.

45:20Robert Mays: It doesn't change my opinion of them. To me, it was more a reminder of, and this is such a stupid thing to say, but how many good players the Lions have. Like this type of performance in this type of game is just one of those. And the guy that really makes me say that is like, oh yeah, Sam Laporta is really good. And they have a lot of these guys. And the other part of it was watching the way that the offensive line played just overall. I thought that you had some really nice moments from the guards in this game. You had some absolute highlight reel plays from Penny Sewell in this game. And you talk about the bye week.

45:52Robert Mays: Cade Mays is going to be back. And so there was a moment earlier in the season when the offensive line was banged up when Miller and I think Mahogany missed that game. I want to say it was against Buffalo. That sounds right. And you're looking at the overall just state of the offense in Detroit and being like, man, is this going to feel different than it did last year? when they were really struggling up front and they were really inconsistent. And then you watch a game like today, the way the offensive line played, the fact that you're about to get your starting center back, all those skill position guys have their moments over the course of this thing.

46:22Robert Mays: And I think it just, again, was a reminder to me that when they're at full strength, which they're going to be here in a second, the offensive line, the offense overall really does have a special gear that it can reach.

46:33Dave Helman: The offensive line kicked ass in this game. They really did. Like Mahogany, you mentioned, I thought he had just a really good game. Like there were between him and Sewell and obviously a couple of the tight ends in the run game as well. There were a couple of runs specifically to the left side where it's just you could run a truck through there. And I just thought that's what the Detroit Lions offense should feel like. And so the fact that they were able to tap into a little bit of that against like the Cardinals defense isn't good. But like some of those players up front are decent. Like Roy Lopez can do some stuff to you.

47:02Dave Helman: Zayvon Collins can set the edge like they don't have nothing up there. And so I thought that that was impressive. And I think, too, in terms of how many points they scored, they did not do anything for the first 20 minutes of this game. They went three and out of their first three drives. Yes, it was a lot of like, we're in gun. We do not have answers for their blitz stuff. We don't know what we're doing.

47:20Robert Mays: It was driving me crazy to watch what they did last week and then come out. So the first drive, they were under center. But their second and third drives, they come out in the gun on first and 10 on both of those drives. It's like, guys, why are you doing this to me?

47:33Dave Helman: I couldn't believe it. It was all just weird. Like, they come out with that. they had a drive where uh jared goff gets strip sacked on a second down because sam laporta is blocking uh baron browning which like i'm not even saying that's like a schematic fault sometimes you got to let your tight ends block but it was just like that's probably not a situation you want to be in and that stuff happens but even on that play it's a gun play action and yes and

47:56Robert Mays: with the action he drifts into sam laporta and so it's just everything about that play it's like let's throw the shotgun shit in the garbage can. Like there, you have a way to play offense where you can really assert yourself. And so to watch them kind of drift away from that. And I thought the drive starters beyond those first three drives were some of the best calls of the entire game. We're throwing screens. We're just, we're getting things going. Obviously the one, the throwback screen to Gibbs is the craziest version of that. But I thought that the drive starters after those first three drives and really jump-started it every single time, essentially, they touched the ball.

48:35Robert Mays: And so, I mean, you had a play-action screen to Gibbs for 23 yards when they were up 14-7. The throwback screen to Gibbs, jump-start's a two-minute drive for them to kick the 24-7 field goal. It just felt like Petsing and the offense overall really settled in over the course of the game and really allowed them to tap into what we saw for most of it.

48:55Dave Helman: Their drive starters got better, and then the fourth down calls. they had yeah they had three they had multiple fourth down touchdowns they had the I think actually both of them were to JMO but like one or uh one of them was to Jameson on then on like the back line and then they had a really sweet fourth and one conversion in the middle of the second which this actually is when they got jump started this was when the offense finally came alive but they ran this little like they had Brock Wright motion from left to right into the flat and so it's fourth and one everyone's like we got to run with the flat guy but they have Sam Laporta already to the right he runs this little like out and up route and he is nobody's even in his vicinity and he scores a touchdown and it did kind of feel like a deep breath moment for the lines where they were like okay we survived a fourth down and we scored a touchdown we can kind of cruise back into this game the way that they want to and then from there on they were the offense that looks like the best in the NFL again you're talking about the touchdown Laporta scored on fourth down yes yeah to me to me the biggest play is the fourth and three on the

49:51Robert Mays: previous drive because if they don't get that fourth and three on the previous drive they're already down seven, nothing. And then you're handing the back, handing the ball back to the Cardinals. And so getting that fourth and three and on that fourth and three, again, talking about the game that Laporta had the fourth and one touchdown is leaking out wide open down the right sideline that fourth and three, he's running a big boy in breaker route with Denzel Burke on him. And Jared gets all the way back to it on the backside. Like that is a big time play from those two guys. If they don't get that.

50:21Robert Mays: And there's a chance you give the ball back to Arizona. They go up 14 nothing after that drive the entire game potentially changes in that moment he got smoked

50:30Dave Helman: on that one that that to me still felt like they were still like kind of holding on to something and still clinching the touchdown to me felt like we can breathe a little bit but no you're right like if they if they don't get that and Arizona scores there like Arizona is a good enough offense that if they're ahead of the curve they can get the game to run away from you obviously that's not what happened but they're talented enough to do that that's arguably my bigger takeaway from this game and i'll say it again we don't have to overreact to beating the cardinals but the lions have played a lot of stressful games and the lions defense has looked abysmal every week of the season up until now i just looked this up while we were talking weeks one to four they lead the lead the league in opponents points per drive they were giving up more than three points per drive which is worse than the cowboys it's worse worse than the saints i mean even their wins they have not been able to count on the defense for anything.

51:22So while all of that was getting going on the offensive side of the ball to force five consecutive three and outs, and we don't have to overreact to what it means because going into this game, Arizona was going three and out 40 % of the time, like top six number in the league. Like this is not a good team. But you take what you can get when you've had the first month of the season. I mean, Kelvin Shepard was under fire. Oh, that was a tough one. That press conference was incredible.

51:47Robert Mays: That was a we're trying to keep our heads above water sort of press conference. Absolutely. And so to come out here and like show you anything against anyone, I thought Roger McCreary in the first half of this game was pretty damn good. Like clearly the Cardinals made it a point to target the shit out of him. And for the most part, he gave way better than he got. DJ Reed had some nice moments too. And for where this secondary has been to this point in the season and knowing that Brian Branch is expected back on the other side of the bye week, I was watching that back and kind of like stroking my chin like, okay, well, if the offense looks like this, again, we've said this about so many teams, but we only need the defense to be fine to have a shot to do something here.

52:30And they looked fine in this game.

52:32Robert Mays: Two more things. Talking about that fourth and one touchdown, Derek, the play before that. Laporta gets it to fourth and one. They spit him the ball on the flat. He makes a guy miss. And that's the only reason he was even fourth and one. he would have gotten tackled essentially at the line of scrimmage if he didn't make, I think it was Williams. It was wide at Williams. He shook in space to get to the fourth and one. And then the other play, we mentioned it very quickly, the touchdown throw to Jamison Williams. Goff is sliding just enough to his left to buy time to make that throw. And, I mean, it's a beautiful throw and catch.

53:07Robert Mays: Like that's, again, buying just enough time in the pocket to get that thing off. And so a really nice performance from the Lions. I know it's against the Cardinals, But you want to see their offense be able to hit that sort of gear, and they did today. Speaking of offenses that hit a gear today, the Patriots scored 45 points in a blowout win over a Las Vegas Raiders team that have been playing pretty darn good football over the first month of the season. Drake May, 26-34, 374, 11 yards per attempt, four touchdowns,.74 EPA per dropback. You officially have our attention. What was your biggest, both of y 'all, what was your biggest impression watching this back like when it wasn't in the middle of the early window?

53:51Pass protection.

53:53Dave Helman: Pass protection and he believes he's the best player on the field again. Like those two things to me. Do you think that has anything to do with the fact that he was able to just stand there for six seconds most of the snaps in this game? That was my biggest takeaway. Yes, but I saw that last week from him too, the confidence I mean. And so the fact that he had the confidence again where he was like, I can make all these throws. Because even like some of those throws were still very difficult, even if he obviously did have the time. I was really impressed with the offensive line though. Not even just pass protection wise, but like the pass protection was very good.

54:25Dave Helman: They were also picking stuff up, like not even just guys winning one-on-one, but like their plan was better than I think it had been, especially the first. The plan was excellent.

54:32Robert Mays: They were getting four hands on Crosby every single play. Like the pass protection plan was really, really good in this game for the Patriots.

54:40Dave Helman: And I think what helped them a little bit there the run game like kind of worked it's not the best thing in the world but over the first two or three weeks of the season it was what it was last year where it was a hindrance to the offense and the quarterback had to make them right and make a bunch of plays and last year they were able to do that so against some you know so-so defenses but they ran into some good ones against the playoffs and early this season and that wasn't the case this is a Raiders run defense that like has been solid they've had their moments they've got some decent players we talked about it coming into this week and the fact that you know they didn't run all over them they didn't kill them but they made it such that this did not have to be a hey Drake may drop back 50 times when they know you're going to pass for 40 of them sort of game and the fact that they didn't have to live that way and then were able to be as dominant as they were in pass protection I mean I I'm assuming it's more than five pressures but like I feel like I could count on my hand the amount of times that

55:31Robert Mays: he was unclean in this game the only so he was pressured like a reasonable amount when you actually look at the numbers but that was in part just because those are he's holding it forever Exactly. He's holding it forever. That's based on tracking stats. And so when you actually look at it, it reminded me a little bit of the game we talked about with, I can't remember which Bills game it was. It might have been last week. Patriots Bills? No. Yes. Maybe yes. Yeah. So it's similar where we talked about the Bills and their pass rush in that game where they had a decent amount of pressures over the course of the game when you look at next gen, but the time to pressure was just extremely low.

56:01Robert Mays: And so that's what happened in this game as well. all of the players for the Patriots or for the Raiders in this game that had of the there were four players that had at least three pressures in this game for for Las Vegas three of them had a time to pressure of at least 3.3 seconds so a lot of those pressures were coming really deep into the down because they're holding on to the ball they're hunting big plays on the day the Patriots gave up six quick pressures per next gen a lot of those were to blitzers where guys are just coming clean a little bit. But when you look at the actual four-man rush, them getting four hands on Crosby pretty much the entire game and making everyone else beat them, the Raiders couldn't do that.

56:42Robert Mays: It's worth mentioning Tonka Hemingway came out pretty early and he'd been having a nice season. But overall, the four-man rush for the Raiders had absolutely no shot in this game. This was Drake's lowest pressure rate of the season. And I mean, all those numbers are accurate, but just watching this game back, Derek said it perfectly. Like the number of times the Raiders were able to move Drake off his spot and make him make a quick or frantic decision, it didn't happen very often. And I thought like a picture-perfect snapshot of how this game went was Kyle Williams had the touchdown, and then he had the second huge explosive when the game was already a blowout.

57:24The Raiders sent six, and they pulled one guy out. So it was a five-man blitz with like a sim pressure. And Hunter Henry was in the backfield with the back as well. So like they had a loaded backfield. And it didn't, nothing happened. Like they picked it up so effortlessly that Drake didn't even have to like look down at the rush. He didn't have to move his feet. They sent, like it just, it was the most ineffective blitz I've ever seen.

57:49Robert Mays: And on that play, Henry chips Max Crosby. That's his role on that play from that split back. And it felt like that happened all the time. And the other thing I wanted to know besides Drake looking awesome and looking like the MVP runner up again, Caleb Lomu came in at halftime because Will Campbell got banged up and looked pretty damn good. Not that this is the most fierce pass rush in the NFL. And I think he went against Crosby at least once or twice, but like for the most part was not dealing with Max Crosby a lot. But man, for a guy where the book on Caleb Lomu as a first-round pick was that he was going to need a lot of seasoning, he stepped in and I thought played really, really well.

58:28I think PFF charted him with one pressure allowed on 29 snaps.

58:33Robert Mays: We talked about it coming into the season. Who would also be the edge presence for this team? Like where would they find pass rush considering the construction of the edge group? Elijah Ponder's done some good stuff for them. He had two sacks today. He had two quick pressures today. He had four pressures overall. all Milton Williams had three quick pressures on the day so that was the one of the questions like edge rusher was a big question mark for this team and Ponder has given them more than we probably would have expected I'm thinking about featuring him on my that rock video you should you should

59:01Dave Helman: he was he was everywhere he's a good one man he's he I'm trying to figure out who he reminds me of like it's it's a cross position composition but there's something about like Deion Dawkins has like a very weird body type but like at his peak was like an insane athlete and it just like kind of made it work elisha ponder doesn't look like the most like chiseled insane athlete but he just like he is a really good athlete who just makes shit work all the time and like he's just the fact that he can be a rusher for them he can crush the pocket he's good in run defense he's their best dropper as far as their edge guys go like he really is like a little bit of like a skeleton key

59:38Robert Mays: sort of player for their front he's awesome it's not surprising that he doesn't look like an all athlete the guy was undrafted last year I mean it's yeah for him to come along and be as central to their defense as he's been is a really nice story the other thing I'd mentioned just schematically I thought that the Patriots were doing some interesting stuff in this game like when you look at the drive for them to even go up seven nothing you get a DPI which they got several of those in this game there were several long pass interference penalties that jump started drives but that to me just is a sign of an offense that's on the front foot the entire day but on that drive The 16-yard completion to Dobbs to kind of get things going, they have like a little rail motion and they get into dagger off of that.

1:00:15Robert Mays: They had multiple plays in this game, Derek, where they're either emptying out the back with like one of those, like just drain motions from the backfield to get into empty or the back is offset to potentially incite like an empty check from the defense. Like they clearly thought they were seeing something with where the back was and getting him out of the backfield or offsetting him to kind of play with whatever the defense was expecting. They saw something on tape that forced that pushed them to do that. And so just some of the little buttons that they were pressing overall, the screen called a Hunter Henry is like a beautifully timed play and execution.

1:00:49Robert Mays: Like I thought Josh McDaniels, but he's gotten some shit this year for what he's done. I thought today was maybe the best game he has had so far this season.

1:00:58Dave Helman: It finally looks like an offense that knows it doesn't have A.J. Brown, which did not feel like that once he left for the first couple of weeks. It was a little bit of static. It was a little bit of like, our guys will just win. and that's just not what they have right now and I do think that some of the motion stuff was really impressive you bring up so glad you bring up the play where they run that like rail motion where the player going out to the flat runs the wheel and they run dagger in front of it they ran that again later in the game early in the third quarter and then he hits Eli Raritan on a unbelievably beautiful pass like right over Quay Walker running yeah it yeah that like that is as good of coverage as you can ask for from Quay Walker like that you made the window so tight It is what it is.

1:01:36Dave Helman: And the quarterback was just better. And so then like knowing that they can get back to that play, knowing who's going to be able to cover him. Like I just I do think that their construction right now, it feels less static than it had before. My biggest gripe in weeks one and two was like their pass protection plan was so bad and it looked cleaner in this game. Like it the offense feels like it has answers again and the quarterback is seeming like he believes in it again. And so if they're going to operate it this way, this feels like a team that has a top 10 unit on both sides of the ball. Truthfully.

1:02:04Robert Mays: All right. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I wasn't going to do this. Oh, no. I saw where you were glancing. What do you have? We can save it. We can see. No, no. There's an empty spot at the table. You want to put them back that quickly? I don't. It's probably not worth burning in. Do you want to use your hand raise here, Derek, in week five to put the Patriots back on? You don't have to. I'm not pressuring you. We can wait and see.

1:02:30Dave Helman: Only because it's week five. I've no, but this does to me feel like a team that is like worth it. They're on watch right now. If they do this for one or two more weeks, like, yeah, absolutely.

1:02:40Robert Mays: Okay. We don't have to do it now because there is an empty seat that we are not going to fill with anyone else. Just spoiler alert, because I don't think anyone else deserves it right now. Their next three games are Jets, Bears, and Dolphins. I think. All right. We'll check. We'll check back in after a couple weeks. We'll check in after that. We'll check back in after a couple weeks. Just to be clear, we are going to leave the seat empty. I think we should leave the seat empty after taking the Cowboys off on Thursday. I was very impressed by the Patriots today. And, I mean, winning 45-17 in the NFL is impressive, but it's not enough for me to want to reverse course that quickly.

1:03:14All right, okay. All right, we can keep him off. But, like, hey, I mean, manageable schedule coming up. I assume A.J. Brown will be back sooner rather than later. Yeah. I mean, it's week six already, and he got hurt in week one. He'll be back after that stretch. Yeah. So. We'll revisit it. I'm trending in a very positive direction with the Patriots.

1:03:35Robert Mays: I think where I'll land with it, I think they're table worthy. But the fact that we already took them off and we'd have to use one of our votes to put them back on, we can wait and see. Right? Like, they should be punished a little bit for how those couple weeks went. Last one here. The Giants-Commanders game had our attention because the league wouldn't let it not have our attention. We didn't have a choice. We're sitting there trying to watch the beginning of Niner Steel. And I'm not trying to say that Giants-Commanders isn't worth watching. Right? It is worth watching. It's an exciting ending.

1:04:05Robert Mays: We'll talk about it. I don't understand how in 2026 I have to watch the end of that game when I have NFL Sunday ticket. I just I don't understand it. Why? Like, what is the possible rationale for that game having to be on my television when I should be able to watch everything at the same time? I truly don't get it. It's also the second time this season that has happened. I'm struggling to remember the other one, but in like week two or three, there was another overtime game that wouldn't end and it got in the way of the late window kickoff. And I just, yeah, it's not a commentary on the Giants and the Commanders.

1:04:42I don't understand how when you pay out - I would like to watch both of them. When you pay out the ass to have the ability to watch everything, blacking out the start of the game of the week for anything, it could have been the best game of the year and I'd still be pissed if I couldn't watch the first 10 minutes of a game that I paid for.

1:04:58Robert Mays: The mechanics of it are frustrating on its own. I just don't understand the thought process behind it. If you're trying to make Seahawks Niners the national game, what part of the audience needs to see the end of Giants Commanders before that game kicks off? Like who around America is like, oh, I must see the end of this game before I see the start of the next one. I just don't understand why that's how it works, period. Let alone how Sunday ticket works. After the decade the Giants have had, I feel like even Giants fans are like, hey, can I at least get part of my TV? In the local market, keep the game on.

1:05:36Robert Mays: In the local markets, that should be how it is. Nationally, I don't get it. No. That's not why we're talking about this. We're talking about this because we have to discuss the end of the Giants-Commanders game. Derek, you are the only person that was not in the room. Me and Dave rewatched the TV copy of it just to get every single beat of how the final couple plays went. From your perspective, what did you see in the final minute or so of the Giants-Commanders game?

1:06:03Dave Helman: So on one hand, at first I thought like nobody knew that they had a timeout. Like because it seems like, I don't know, it just seemed like a very bizarre situation. It comes out later that like some of the players, I think Chris Paul was asking in the locker room, they were like, no, we knew, like we talked about it, we didn't have a timeout. And so you even had Dan Quinn after the game talk about he was like, yeah, in that situation, we thought we were going to be able to throw the ball away if it doesn't go our way and we can move on. We can take the kick. And so to me, the more you watch it, it is very clear that like they called a boot, a boot pass with, by the way, on the play before Rashad White goes down with like 50 seconds left.

1:06:36Dave Helman: So they choose to go slow. 50 seconds. They choose to go slow. So this is not like they get down with 20 seconds and they got to go and they panic. They are choosing to go slow. So that part of it I thought was a little bit weird. and then they call this like little boot play action pass. Jaden doesn't really boot out all the way, does not want to kill the play immediately, which he should do if it's covered. He should just throw it away and we take the kick wherever it's going to be. And he instead like fiddles around and then tries to run. By the time he goes down, there's nine seconds left and nobody else on the team is thinking that we have to run and kill this because we thought we were already killing it with the play that we had called.

1:07:11And so this to me, I mean, coaching, I guess,

1:07:15Dave Helman: has to be better about making sure that everybody's on the same page, that you have to kill this no matter what. But to me, this is like the quarterback, he's played a lot of games. He started like 100 games in his career going back to high school, college, NFL. I think that he should know better. And I'm a little bit baffled the game ended the way that it did. What do you think is more indefensible? If Dan Quinn allowed for the clock to run from 55 seconds to 14 seconds, and in that entire time span of running clock, did not make it clear to everyone what the game plan was over the next one to two snaps, or that Jaden Daniels is a year three franchise quarterback in the NFL who won the Heisman in college and has been starting since he was like 14 and like didn't have a beat on the situation just in general.

1:08:02Robert Mays: It's a combination because when I went back and rewatched it, the most baffling thing to me is to snap that. Dan Quinn's rationale of why they even ran the play was that we were trying to get more yards. Fine. Which, to be fair, is logical because the conditions were a mess. The conditions are a mess. You don't want to kick a longer field goal than you have to. We see teams do that all the time. But if that's the thought process, getting it down to 12 seconds, it's not worth running the play at 12 seconds because at that point, you're almost necessitating that the quarterback dirt it in order for you to get the field goal off.

1:08:39Robert Mays: Because if he completes that ball inbounds to anybody, The game is over. So why even run the play? Like that has to happen. If you're going to run that play, run any sort of play, it can't happen with 12 seconds left on the play clock. That just can't be how that entire situation unfolds. Because now there's almost nothing good that can happen by snapping the ball with 12 seconds left. They could have slow played the shit out of this entire situation and still gotten to the line for another play with like 25 plus seconds and then again like get up and clock it or whatever you need to do this could have this could have been so easy if you didn't move at a literal snail's pace and like to to play it that way without a clear understanding of what was going to come next is i i don't know i don't have a firm reaction to it because it's so crazy i don't mean to absolve jayden daniels of blame he absolutely deserves blame for how that final play was handled i just don't understand how that's the way you handle like Derek said it's the ball that play the Rashad right run ends with 50 seconds left how you handle that 38 seconds the way that you did I just truly don't get it like what the thought is and how you're approaching it that way it was kind of

1:09:57Dave Helman: shocking to see them go that slow or usually you would go fast immediately and then just like run a play with 35 seconds on the play clock and then you get to like you get to choose how the game ends that way and so I I do agree with that like them managing the clock the way that they did was really bizarre and then the final play going the way that it did I think was on the quarterback so it really is both like them putting him in that position I think is like kind of doesn't really make any sense but that was that was one of the worst failings of the entire season like that that was truly bizarre I enjoyed Mike Tomlin's commentary at halftime of the Sunday night game where he said something along the lines of, we're never going to know what actually happened because if it comes out, it'll be so bad for the people involved that you just, you got to bury that thing deep.

1:10:46Where Ashburn, wherever their facility is, you just got to, you got to dig a real deep hole out behind the facility for that secret.

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1:14:27Robert Mays: Well, Derek said it's one of the worst plays of the entire season. We've got plenty of other bad shit from week five to get to. It's part of the reason we didn't wedge that play into what the f***. So let's get to those right now. Here's some of the tougher moments, outcomes, everything from Week 5. It's time for what the f***. What the f***? The Jacksonville Jaguars beat the Philadelphia Eagles 19-17 today in London. There is just so much to say about this game. We'll go from one instance of clock mismanagement to the next one, but it wasn't just that. It wasn't just the way the Jags-Eagles ended that puts them here.

1:15:08Robert Mays: Everything about the Jaguars-Eagles game from London today, what the f***?

1:15:14Dave Helman: We can talk about all of it. This is one of the most striking instances of players overcoming coaching that I can remember. The fact that the Jacksonville Jaguars players were able to win this game was unbelievable to me. It's all Parker Washington. It's all Parker. It's just Trevor, like losing his mind. And in the midst of losing his mind, because play calls are coming in, false starts, like play calls are coming in late. False starts are happening. They can't get lined up. And he's just like in the midst of this, making insane. He's like, Parker Washington will bail me out. And guess what? He was right.

1:15:49Dave Helman: Parker Washington will bail you out. And he makes an incredible play. And then obviously, you know, it goes down to, they get the situation where the Eagles think they win the game with the field goal. and then the jacks return the kick to like the 40 ish and then that gives them an incredible chance to make a field goal which like that is another instance of players like the fact that i think the jaguars coaching kind of put them in a position where the game should have been lost like that and then they return the kick and win it anyway this i was actually i was watching this game with my girlfriend in the morning because it's the only game on and i was like they deserve to lose this game because they should have to think about what they've done they should have to consider what has happened here.

1:16:26Dave Helman: And now they will still do that. Obviously, NFL teams do that. But the fact that they get away with it with a win, I was like, that is insane that they

1:16:33Robert Mays: get away with that. To have to pull it out of the fire the way that they did against an Eagles team where they're decimated with injuries on offense, like absolutely decimated. Jonathan Grenard doesn't play in this game. J-Link's Hunt gets hurt in the middle of this game. The idea that your players needed to overcome the situation that you put them in for you to win this game against an Eagles team that walked in limping the way that they did. They deserve to lose this game, and I really hope they do spend a decent amount of time reflecting on what this thing looked like. Derek said something that triggered a thought in my brain.

1:17:07Trevor Lawrence is the most happy-go-lucky sunshine from Remember the Titans, just not bothered by anything guy. You're talking about the delay game? Have you ever seen him that pissed off? I've never seen Trevor. He does not do that.

1:17:24Robert Mays: I've never seen him like that. That, that stretch with the delays of game is just there. I had two thoughts in that moment. One indefensible, but the idea that you can get down to the one yard line and then have that drive go the way that it did is indefensible. The other one I was talking to Dave about this. As soon as I got into the office today, the Jags need to cut this shit out with all the London games. You, if you, When you're a 6-11 also ran in the AFC South and you're like some NFL novelty, fine. Play them all over there. I don't give a shit. When you're a team that's trying to win the Super Bowl, the idea that you're going to give away a home game and play two London games in a row and allow the Eagles to play essentially a home game in London when you're trying to be one of the best teams in the league, somebody needs to have a conversation with somebody.

1:18:14Robert Mays: Like there is no way the cultivation of the British fan base is worth handing away this home game to go play the Eagles. You know who they play in London next week? Houston. So they're giving up a home division game to stay over there and do this. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it. Do they have to? They hand away two home games to do this? I looked at their schedule. They play at Houston in December. So like the Houston home game is later in the year. So this is the Jacksonville home game in that series. and they're playing it in London. I think they're playing that one at Wembley.

1:18:47So it's a different stadium if that matters to you at all.

1:18:51Dave Helman: Not really. My other cut to shit with the Jaguars, by the way, I think at least part of their like, because they really only have these issues now when they get into the red zone or get inside the 10. And the thing is, they're a good like passing red zone team when the ball is outside of the 10 yard line. Like I think that they can throw into those windows really well. When they get inside the five and passing is harder generally for any offense, especially if you don't have just a Mike Evans, we can throw it up to him and he'll win. You need to be able to run the ball a little bit better. All of their stuff where they try to get inside the five is weird shit.

1:19:23Dave Helman: They go into Wildcat, they bring out Jumbo, they get into funky formations. And so I think, especially in this game where I think that they were scrambling a little bit and getting into like thirds and fourth downs with some of that stuff, they were just like kind of scrambling with what they really wanted to call and what they really wanted to do in some of those situations. And like you see it in the numbers, like before today, they were 9 of 11 scoring in the red zone. And I think most of those were touchdowns. They were 0 for 3 on touchdowns in the red zone today. And they only scored once.

1:19:52Dave Helman: It was just an all-time really stupid performance for this coaching staff and team.

1:19:58Robert Mays: The jet sweep to Tootin is an all-timer. Dude. It's an all-timer. And I'm not saying it's the wrong call. I think that stretching my wife. We all watch this game after waking up and having coffee on the couch. And so our significant others are sitting there next to us in a way they're not always.

1:20:16Dave Helman: Having to explain why this game is so dumb.

1:20:18Robert Mays: I'm trying to explain to her why it's not the dumbest thing in the world to run a jet sweep on the goal line. The field shrinks vertically, so you have to stretch horizontally sometimes. That stuff can work. But the details of that play, to motion Chris Rodriguez out of the backfield. So now you're giving no threat of being able to run the ball downhill whatsoever. so ever. And you're asking Chris Rodriguez, a player who has never, I'm assuming in a game, ever blocked a player in space in a way you would ask a wide receiver to do it is having to block Zach Bond on that play in that moment. You're just asking that thing to get absolutely nuked.

1:20:57Robert Mays: I just I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe that was the choice. You know, what took my breath away when I watched that again is and if it works and you get a block on the edge it looks fine and all is well but that ball was snapped on the one and basial tootin took it at the six even it was an under it's an under center play and yet it's designed so the back gets it at the six yard line on fourth and a foot and i just i i would i would prefer to not do it that way and like they had a they ran the speed option like three plays before that i was gonna mention that it was same drive it was that was sick which one thing that struck me too watching that one though it took more of an effort to run over michael carter it took way more of an effort from tootin than than the blocking god i so the other thing i wanted to mention too and i remember noticing this in the moment before the freak out at the end of the game they screwed shit up with the clock in the in the before halftime drive too like they almost incurred two delay of game penalties on that drive and i remember thinking we're cutting it kind of loose we're cutting it kind of close here fellas like what the hell is going on and like when Aaron Rodgers is doing that shit in his prime and he's running the clock all the way down on purpose it's different like you could tell how manic this was like you could tell how Trevor was like doing this he's like hurry up get into your motion so I can snap this and it was incessant I feel like it happened seven times in this game and it burned them like three times Let's not let the Eagles escape this without a little bit of scorn.

1:22:33Robert Mays: I do think their performance overall was admirable. Like the fact that they were in this game, the fact that they almost won this game, the half that Jalen Carter had, there are not that many defensive players in the NFL that are capable of having that sort of half. He was insane. Just blowing up plays all over the place. I mean, what he did to those guards in both the run and pass game over the first half was ridiculous. the Eagles had a chance to win this game they're the two big mistakes that are worth digging into one Makai Lemon going out of bounds on that completion if that doesn't happen the game is probably over you kick that field goal with zero seconds left but you allow the Jacks to save one of those timeouts and then we've had a lot of end of game kicking situations recently I don't think this was the most egregious mistake I think going out of bounds was but this is different than the Ravens situation where we want the Ravens Cowboys game where you want Dallas to put the ball and play there because the Ravens had a timeout left and so you're trying to tick down as much time as you possibly can the Jags did not have a timeout left and so really the only big play you can make in the middle of the field while stopping the clock is the kickoff return and so by not kicking that thing out of the back of the end zone I absolutely think you gave the Jags the best chance to win that game and so multiple like situational mistakes from the eagles with the game on the line and nick sirianni to his credit took the blame for that but that's one of those things we're like well that's this is literally your job like these are the things that you are in charge of because you're not in charge of anything else i'm curious derek what like what irks you more i think that i think the kickoff decision irks me more than lemon going out of bounds even though you're right like that could have allowed you to just kick and walk off but That's one of those things where like I something has to be all the one thing you cannot do to the offense, like to the huddle.

1:24:22Robert Mays: But like as that drive even starts or as that sequence starts, like the one thing no one can do is go out of bounds. It's the one thing that no one can do.

1:24:30Dave Helman: And like, I guess because he's a rookie, you give him a little bit more grace for stuff like that. But I don't know, man, you can't go out of bounds. Like, you know, in a situation, you are not allowed to do that. I do think the kicking one is frustrating, though, because like you had time to think about it. like sometimes with these stuff that happens in the moment like you're just gonna kind of like your brain's gonna turn off for a moment you're just not gonna do the right thing especially if you're in a rookie first time in your in that situation when you're going into the kickoff and you have time to sit there and think after the score happens okay we have a minute to breathe all that stuff and then you still kind of land where you did that to me is I don't I don't know about worse but I think it's like harder it's harder to excuse because you had as much time to think about it as you did.

1:25:12Robert Mays: The last thing that's worth mentioning from this game, just in terms of long-term outlook, Anton Harrison left this game on a cart, and it doesn't, I assume it doesn't look good. I didn't hear much about the injury post-game, but to leave on a cart after a non-contact injury. I was going to say the nature of the injury didn't make me feel good. And one of the things we talked about with the Jags over the first month, why would this thing feel different? Why did they feel more potent? Why were they, how did they answer some of the questions we had about them coming into the season? Their play up front, and in part, him taking the step that he was taking was part of that and so this is a step in the wrong direction this entire game what you saw from the guards what you saw from Ezra Cleveland specifically and then to potentially lose Harrison for an extended amount of time is a really tough one I do want to say one more time like and they they bungled it at the end and they were not particularly good but such a great example of like even even the shittiest teams in the NFL are loaded with professional football players and coaches who are really good at scheming shit up for a game.

1:26:14The Eagles were eight and a half point underdogs in this game. And, you know, it makes sense that the narrative with Lane Johnson retiring and the Juergens trade, it's easy to just be like, well, they're just going to get wiped off the field. And I thought Jacksonville would win this game comfortably. But these are really high-level athletes and coaches putting this shit together. And even though the end of the game was just kind of a disaster, I thought it was really admirable the way the Eagles bowed up in this game. I totally agree.

1:26:43Robert Mays: I mean, the defense, the difference, the defense was a little bit disappointing over the first month in part because the pass rush just hadn't been very good. And so for them to turn up the heat pass rush rise the way that they did, Carter specifically, but also, I mean, Nolan Smith had a couple of moments. Bond had a pressure on a like a designed like big stunt on a five man pressure. Like they they affected the game up front more than they have recently. And I think that's the formula for them to stay relevant over the course of the rest of the year. If the defense can play like that and the front can play like that and you can just try to piece together the offense, I think that's how they stay annoying.

1:27:16And honestly makes it all the more tragic that they had taken a game from a team that was playing like a Super Bowl contender and let it slip.

1:27:25Robert Mays: I just thought it wasn't the best game from the Jags. The first half from the Jags defense, I just thought it wasn't the best called game. like both of the big Cooper touchdown and then the big Wicks completion on those touchdown drives. They're playing one robber on both of those plays. Against this team, why? Like why are you ever giving

1:27:43Dave Helman: this quarterback man coverage right now? Why?

1:27:45Robert Mays: There's no reason. You're taking away the middle of the field while giving them one-on-ones. That's exactly what they want. And so the Jags have been an awesome man coverage team this season. And then even later in the game, when they played man, it wasn't robber. And so either, if you're going to play man, pressure. If you're not going to play man, at least try to have those droppers somewhere else rather than have a guy safety dropping down from the middle of the field. It didn't make sense to me. And so those are the two biggest pass plays the Eagles had in the first half were against those looks.

1:28:13Robert Mays: And Campanile typically is awesome and really, really good. But that first half was just kind of uncharacteristically off when it came to having your finger on the pulse of what that offense is trying to do.

1:28:25Dave Helman: Yeah, what are you trying to rob against this quarterback? Exactly. He's not going to throw that area of the field anyway. Who cares?

1:28:31Robert Mays: This isn't Jimmy, right? Like, this is not the coverage you should be playing against Jalen Hurst. And they did pay for it a couple different times. All right, let's keep rolling here. I don't need a preamble here. Chargers-Broncos. What the f***? Everybody involved. I don't have that much to say about this game. Other than the fact that it was gross. Just unbelievably bad. Like, unbelievably bad. Going back and re-watching it, I regret the fact that I did. We had to talk about it because it was so ugly and because the Broncos just continue to be this ugly. But I'm not sure as I spin back through games on a Sunday night, there has been a more disheartening review all season than going back and watching this Broncos-Chargers game from today.

1:29:19Dave Helman: What did you say? I think I agree. When Robert was re-watching some clips from this game, I would just hear periodic grumbles of like, oh, Jesus. It was so bad.

1:29:30Robert Mays: It could be for either team. Oh, no, yeah. It could be for either team. The one that broke me, there were a couple. I mean, we can just say this right now. Justin Herbert's brain is just cooked. Oh, completely. Just cooked. I mean, when you watch.

1:29:45Dave Helman: And it happened again over the course of the game, because I thought in the first half he was, like, fine. Like, he made some pretty decent throws. He was fine under pressure. Obviously, some other guys are making drops and stuff like that. By the second half, and especially, like, the final interception he throws, where they're in this like mugged up pressure. Brandon Jones is a safety on the line of scrimmage as the end man. And it's like, there's never a thought in Justin Herbert's mind that Brandon Jones could just drop off and play coverage. And he just like throws the interception right at him.

1:30:11Dave Helman: I mean, he's like undercutting that route and he's like never thinks that he could drop. I'm like, what do you mean? Everyone in the NFL is doing these seven man fronts where they drop out. Like there's a huge chance that he could drop out there. Derek, you said on the hangover about the Chargers Seahawks game, his picks in that game were indefensible. And this is worse than that.

1:30:29Robert Mays: Yeah, it's just as bad. It's just as bad. I mean, and that, so when they fail the quarterback sneak in the fourth quarter, after that is when the wheels just completely fall off. He has the sack fumble when the game is tied. The game is tied when that sack fumble happens. Zach Allen wins immediately against the amount of, the sheer amount of f*** ups by this team when they're pulling a player is just mind-boggling. And so they're trying to run like a dash protection with the guard pulling. Zach Allen crosses the face of Jake Slaughter immediately, torpedoes the play, and instead of just taking the sack, while he's falling down, Herbert tries to get rid of it, gives the ball back to the Broncos and essentially gives them the game.

1:31:12Robert Mays: And then right before the interception, he does it again. He does it again. And so you just feel his brain at this point is like putting like a fried egg in a skillet. Like you just feel it cooking over the course of the game. And that's exactly what happened again in this thing. It's so bad.

1:31:30Dave Helman: He's broken. He makes the bad plays worse now, which like that is always the sign of like, oh, this guy is not seeing it feeling because that's what that's what when CJ Stroud was playing really poorly at the end of last year, it was not that he was necessarily creating his own bad plays. It was that as soon as something went wrong, he was turning that up to a 10. And that is, I think, what you're feeling a lot right now from Justin Herbert.

1:31:53Robert Mays: He, again, the fourth quarter was so, so bad from him. But when you watch the Chargers offense over this entire game, it's just unwatchable. And I guess we can understand how that happens. You're playing with zero of your day one starting offensive linemen at this point. I guess Cole Strange. You have one. You have one of the guys you were trying to go into the season with as a starter. Who has been terrible anyway. And you say Cole Strange who everybody was terrified that he was starting. You have no NFL receivers or offensive linemen, essentially, at this stage. And so you can understand how that happens, even if agreed.

1:32:24Robert Mays: The quarterback is making bad plays worse, even if the circumstances are that bad. The Chargers had 11 run stuffs in this game, okay? That is tied for the second most in a game in the past three seasons. The Steelers had one with 13 in 2024. The Chargers had 11 of them in this game. Their offense is just non-functional at this point. And the quarterback, again, as he cooks over the course of the game, every single week seemingly is compounding it later in the games. but that the Broncos don't have an excuse the Broncos have NFL players still they have a lot

1:32:57Dave Helman: of NFL players and this game was funny too because I thought I mean I don't know if I thought this but you know Sean Payton is taking over the play calling in in theory it's supposed to look a little bit different maybe they'll call the stuff that Bo really likes all this stuff all the good yeah all the good plays there were still so many moments where they were terrified to let him play quarterback like there was a third and seven uh around midfield or I think it was a third and seven yeah on the first drive it's there on the 50 yard line it's third and seven and they run like a little stick return concept where he runs like the pivot on the stick route and they get like four yards and it's like okay if we plan on going for it on fourth and three or whatever that's a perfectly acceptable call and they just don't do that and they decide to punt and I'm like well then why are we calling a play that's not going to get us that when you know he's just going to throw the four yard route anyway you had that they had I think on what the two yard line at the very end of the game they decide to just kick a field goal instead of trying to the game was tied it was 20 to 20 and they could go up I think 23 20 instead of 27 20 or at least try to but I'm like I don't know man I would want to try to put the game away there I know you believe that the other guy's spiraling but like just a lot of moments where they were it didn't look the offense didn't look different or better is what I would say the third and seven play is one of them is

1:34:11Robert Mays: one of the ones I wrote down as I was slowly losing my mind as I was rewatching this. The play that broke me. The third and nine give up handoff to Betty. You are an NFL team. To hand the ball off on third and nine. I don't care what the dynamics of the game are. I don't care how bad the other team is playing. It's not third and 20. It was third and nine and they handed the ball off.

1:34:43Dave Helman: They are treating anything like above third and five as a, ah, we'll get them next time. And like, how do you run an offense like that? Even if you're a great offense, you're going to run into five, third and five pluses a game. That's just the way the sport goes. Like they are, they are calling an offense. Like they don't believe they can make any plays that are difficult. It's insane to me. My favorite sequence was the Marvin Mims 26 yard punt return that set them up. I think they were on the plus 27. Bo Nix throws incomplete checks down to Dobbins on second down throws incomplete. And then we'll let's miss a 42 yard field goal.

1:35:27Dave Helman: I remember this too, because I wasn't like only watching this game, obviously. Right. And so I see them get the ball like on the 27 yard line. And then I'm like kind of watching other games. I'm just like, you know, kind of mindlessly being like, oh, incomplete, whatever. And then I come to the end of the drive and the field goal teams out there. I'm like, how the hell are they settling for three when you get the ball already inside the 30? Like, especially to like, think about how many other teams, especially like this week, the Niners, every short field, they get instant touchdown and it's just like so many other teams can do this and they just like could not figure it out when that happened we were robert and i were watching the two main games the late games together and like mems got daylight and it looked like he had a chance to score and it it fizzled out and when he got tackled i was just like you know i don't think they're gonna get points out of this didn't i didn't expect to be correct but cowboys were at the table and it was annoying me

1:36:21Robert Mays: Oh, I thought you were taking the Broncos off the table. It's why I looked at it to remind myself that the Broncos are there. This might be, we should just cut the table down to eight teams now. Honestly. We shouldn't wait until midseason. There aren't 10 deserving teams to be there. There's not enough already. The Broncos are 3-2, by the way, after today. The 3-2 Denver Broncos. Let's see what Thursday night against Seattle looks like. Let's get to our last one here. Oh, good God. the Chicago Bears get absolutely worked by the Green Bay Packers today as road favorites with their backup quarterback everything about that performance from the Bears and we'll touch on all of it what the f*** was that you know what I'm just gonna say it it's nothing personal against the Bears I'll tell you what the f*** that was that's what it's supposed to look like when you play a backup quarterback on the road in the NFL.

1:37:17And for the briefest of moments, maybe I allowed myself to believe that Ben Johnson really was that magical, that they could just keep winning games with backup quarterbacks. And before the first quarter was even over, I was like, okay, you know what? It's nice to know that there's a limit. And even Ben Johnson can get the shit kicked out of him when he doesn't have his quarterback.

1:37:37Robert Mays: And guess what? It looks a lot worse when you get the shit kicked out of you after you've talked shit incessantly for the last year this is the downside of approaching it this way and you think the Packers didn't care like listen to Zaire Franklin talk about Luther Burden after that game in the locker room justifiably so when you when you handle this the way that the Bears have handled it consistently over the last year and this is what happens to you you deserve every single bit of it I just I thought this was

1:38:04Dave Helman: the team the Packers are supposed to be man like they looked obviously there are some moments of like disappointed by the Bears in this game. Like I thought Dennis Allen kind of got undressed in this game by Matt LaFleur. But like that was why the first four weeks of the season were so frustrating is like we know that Matt LaFleur can do this. We know that Jordan Love can make those throws down the field. And so the fact that they really tapped into all that stuff in this game and they were able to access that, I was just like it. I kind of felt a little bit alive getting to watch Jordan Love play quarterback like that again.

1:38:32Dave Helman: I will say the part that like surprised me a little bit from the Packers was I thought their front on defense looked good. And I thought their plan on defense in a lot of ways was really, really impressive. Like I thought you saw moments from Danny Deny Sutton. I thought some of the other defensive tackles played pretty well in this game. And then I just thought some of the coverage stuff that they were doing or stuff to like keep Bajan in the pocket. Like there was a sequence inside the two minute Bears had the ball in the 15 and they have like a nub tight end to the left hand side. And Brandon Cissé is the corner over there and the tight end stays in to protect and Cissé just immediately goes.

1:39:04Dave Helman: Bajan tries to step up against other pressure and Cissé is just there to kill it and it's a sack and so them just like having little adjustments like that and then there was another play where uh one of it wasn't an interception but he Bajan tried to throw an interception late in the third where Evan Williams is like running with emotion and then they just play cover three and Bajan's like well I think I'm getting man I'm just going to throw to my tight end over the middle and he tries very hard to throw one of his interceptions of the day and so I just thought their plan was really impressive and then the front was that was the best game I think that they've played all season that play you're talking about where Cissé adds

1:39:36Robert Mays: on that to me was one of the most frustrating like Burden is wide open he's he's wide open and that ball just doesn't get thrown and I think this is partially a I think you're right I think this is partially a the Bears getting just out man like outgunned coaching wise I think on both sides of the ball this entire game I think you felt the backup quarterback though on top of the them being in bad situations the entire day. There are four or five moments, that being one of them, where like, that's on the quarterback. Some of the decisions are on the quarterback. That lack of a decision is on the quarterback.

1:40:09Robert Mays: And I'm not trying to explain away or absolve blame for the coaching staff. They deserve a lot of it. We can dig into that. But you really felt the fact that the backup quarterback was playing in this game. That doesn't impact the way the defense played. That's the part of this. People are, anyone who's trying to explain this away and be like, oh, the backup quarterback was in, what would you expect that doesn't explain what happened to the Bears defense in this game and what the Packers offense did and how they approach this thing that's what I want to focus on because I'm sorry I just I don't care that much about what Tyson Bajan did he wasn't ready for the moment I'm not terribly surprised by that but this was this was one of the most disrespectful game plans so disrespectful that I've seen and you know Matt LaFleur has he's done everything in his power to downplay the rivalry and he certainly doesn't play into it as much as ben johnson does publicly i feel like he let the game plan do the talking he sure did in this instance so i just want to share a few stats that i really loved uh derrick i told robert this one already but i'll share it with you jordan love threw 31 passes on sunday 18 of them traveled 10 air yards or less so 18 of 31 attempts he's throwing to the sticks or shorter every other attempt went 20 plus yards downfield he did not throw an intermediate ball in this game and of course he was six of eight uh for what like 250 air yards which shout out to alex our friend from the discord i saw you post this and i double checked it myself jordan love had more air yards or more yards on throws of 20 plus air yards 258 than the Chicago Bears had yards, period, in this game.

1:41:53Like, the absolute don't-give-a-shit chucking it downfield was kind of awe-inspiring. Like, you just don't see it in an NFL game very often where the Packers were like, okay, watch this. Like, the sequence, I think it was just before halftime where they just threw three bombs to the end zone, and, like, one of them got broken up, one of them got waved off by illegal hands to the face, and then they threw a third one to Watson for a touchdown. The absolute audacity to just three times in a row be like, I bet you won't do it this time and be right about it, just awe-inspiring levels of pettiness by the Packers.

1:42:29I loved it.

1:42:30Robert Mays: The defense just had no answers. Just absolutely no answers. What's really jumped out to me, and he had one really good, this may be an hour and 40 minutes into this, the half that Dennis Allen had against Matt LeFleur in the second half of that playoff game was really good. Other than that, some of the Bears' worst defensive moments over the last two years have come against this team, and it's in large part because their ability to snuff out pressures from the Bears' defense, no other team does this to them. A couple of those huge moments, the first Watson touchdown, and then I think the 31-yard completion to Watson right before, on that drive you're talking about where it ends with the touchdown to the third and 22.

1:43:13Robert Mays: too. The Bears run like a double corner cat where both corners are coming off and they're playing cover two behind it. It's hilarious how not close those pressures are to getting home. Like, it's hilarious how bad those things look in real time. And that reminds me of the cover zero they ran last year that Watson scored a touchdown on at Lambeau. Like the Packers' ability to just punk the blitzes that this team sends with their pass protection plan has been a consistent theme over the last two years. And I think the both of those plays today where they sent both the corners and it just didn't matter might be the most egregious examples that we've seen.

1:43:49Dave Helman: It's that. And I think on the like 30-ish yard Watson play that you're talking about, it's one of those like funky cover twos that they're trying to get into. And on that play, they have three receivers on the left-hand side, all run vertical. They're like, well, if you're just going to play cover two, we're just going to run everybody down one side of the field and your deep players are not going to be able to cover all of those guys. And obviously they weren't able to. So it really was an impressive game plan from Matt LaFleur. And, like, you have the perfect quarterback and really pass catchers to do it.

1:44:15Dave Helman: Like, Golden had an insane twisting catch on, like, a deep corner out in this game. And then what Christian Watson can do down the field. Like, it's the perfect—they had the perfect team to do the thing that they wanted to do against this Bears team. The Packers' performance running the ball wasn't particularly noteworthy, but I would like to shout out Marshawn Lloyd dump trucking Jalen Johnson at the goal line.

1:44:34Robert Mays: There's been a lot of dump trucking Jalen Johnson going on recently. quite a lot. I have to assume, and it's what, it's week five against a backup quarterback. I doubt many Packers fans give a shit. I bet this was very satisfying for them. It should be very satisfying to them. It absolutely should be. And I think it's a reminder that two weeks ago when they played Atlanta, it felt like this thing might be slipping away from them. And I think that to me is one of the biggest takeaways from this game is that the Bears front isn't good. We know that. But the fact that this offensive line is capable of playing well enough to give their quarterback and these receivers a chance, if that's going to be the case for most of the season, this team is dangerous enough.

1:45:16Robert Mays: I don't know how dangerous they are, but to me, it's a binary thing. Is the offensive line going to be good enough to give the quarterback a chance? If the answer to that is yes, then this team can do this. If the offensive line can continue to look somewhat serviceable. And Micah Parsons is just looming out there as a presence that's going to be injected into, by the way, a defense that is playing better than you. Again, like, just leave the defense for dead after the Atlanta game. I mean, leave everything about that team for dead after the Atlanta game. And I don't know if Jalen Daniels' first career start and Tyson Bajan is enough to get you really excited.

1:45:57But again, you will eventually be adding one of the best defenders in the league back into this thing at some point. And I remember saying in August, I won't be surprised if I feel a hell of a lot better about the Packers in November than I do in September and October. I don't know if that's true yet, but it's certainly in the back of my mind.

1:46:14Robert Mays: I just thought that the passing game would have a real, really high gear to it this year. Like, I thought the passing game overall would have an incredibly high ceiling based on the quality of the quarterback, the quality of the pass catchers, how explosive I thought they might be. And the concern was that the offensive line wouldn't give us a chance to see that. And it's not a good group by any stretch. And I think they will have their issues over the course of the year. But again, if they're going to clear enough of a bar to make this thing functional, I think even if it doesn't look like this again, I think we're going to see enough games from Jordan Love from this group of receivers that the Packers are going to be a relevant team.

1:46:52Robert Mays: And it just didn't feel like that two weeks ago. It felt like this thing was kind of slipping through their fingers. All right, before we move on, we're going to take one more quick break. So me and my family, we live in the suburbs of Chicago. And one thing I love about the cluster of suburbs where we live is that while there are a lot of similarities among them, there are also enough differences to make each one feel unique. and those differences are largely driven by the small businesses that inhabit those towns. Whether you are in one, another, the one over there, they each have enough of their own flair to make them all feel unique while they're all right on top of one another as well.

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1:50:14Robert Mays: All right, before we get out of here, let's talk about what made us feel romantic about football in Week 5. I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty. I kind of felt this way about Parker Washington, too, so far this year where you have a guy that really flashes and has some moments, is kind of a role player, a rotational piece. And it's like, man, I think that guy's got something to him. And then something changes. Either his role changes, how much his feature changes. And you're like, oh, yeah, that guy's just awesome. That's how I feel about Jalen Warren and the way that Jalen Warren has played so far this season and the way that Jalen Warren played today.

1:50:52Robert Mays: So Jalen Warren has 15 carries for 101 yards today. He has six catches for 87. A lot of that coming on two big plays. But he's the leading rusher for the Steelers in this game. He's the leading receiver for the Steelers in this game. And if you go into some of the numbers from this year, I was just curious about it, so I was digging into it. Per NextGen, 57.4 % of Jalen Warren's runs have gone over expectations this year. He's the only player in the league above 50%. He's second in the league in forced missed tackle rate behind Kenneth Walker. 28.6 % of his runs have gone for first downs that is behind Jameer Gibbs James Cook the Robinsons in Atlanta Kyron Williams and Kenneth Walker only Bajon and Kevin and Kenneth Walker have more yards after contact per rush than Jalen Warren he's just been one of the best running backs in the league this year per touch full stop and very quickly has transformed into like the identity of the Pittsburgh Steelers offense justifiably.

1:51:52Robert Mays: And for a guy who I think you could get excited about some of the flashes you'd seen over the last couple of years, but was signed an extension this year for like$5 million a year. Like this was not guaranteed. We were wondering what it was going to look like between him and Rico Dowdle coming into the season. And so Jalen Warren developing into this type of player over the first five weeks of the year, that makes me feel romantic about football. Even as somebody who's admired Jalen Warren's game for a while it's still very much like a sort of a hipster like oh like you're not talking enough about Jalen Warren he's an outright star at this point like if he wasn't already a game like today puts him on the radar in a way that is undeniable and I appreciate well hey I appreciate Aaron Rogers saying like I don't know why more people don't talk about this guy which I completely agree and the other thing I loved he called Jalen Warren which he was just incredibly praised him effusively after this win against the colts as you might expect but he he said he's slippery which i think is a great way to describe his play style but the thing i love he is an incredibly slippery player and it's easy to associate that word with a guy who's 5 8 204 that's his draft list his listed draft measurements which is probably why he went undrafted he's so much more physical than 5 8 204 would imply like he runs through tackles that's what makes him slippery it's his physicality while being like an outlier size wise is uh it's really really cool to watch

1:53:26Dave Helman: he's the only player in the offense who is reliable and explosive like DK Metcalf can kind of be explosive at times but he's not reliable and how he's doing that Pat Fryermuth and some of the other guys are like kind of reliable but they're not really explosive he gives them both and also the other thing that was like really how Jalen Warren got on the field early on as an undrafted guy he's like one of the best backs in the league at pass protection and like you that's where you see a lot of the physicality come through and so the fact that like it's cool that he like got on the field early on largely because of that and how now has become their feature back and has like dave said aaron rogers spent like his entire post-game interview like all four minutes just being like i think jalen i think the world of jalen warren we should get him the ball more he's the best teammate i've ever played with he's so slippery like we got to do everything we can to get 30 the ball like it was he when Aaron Rodgers likes you and what your talent brings to the offense you will continue to get the ball more so um good sign for him for the following 12 games of the season I'll say that heinous tackling by the Colts on both of his

1:54:29Robert Mays: touchdowns of course but well the the problem for them the cut he makes on the touchdown run again that's one of those examples where because of the cut he makes he's leaving he's the linebacker has just less of a chance on that play. He runs through an arm tackle because of the cut he makes, and that's the explosiveness that you see. My favorite play of the day from him, it was a nine-yard run from the gun, and the jump cut he makes in the backfield, he essentially jumps like three gaps over. He's just such a fun player to watch right now, and so it's an offense that I think we were wondering how exciting and enjoyable they would be this season, and Jalen Warren has made the Steelers' offense worth watching to me.

1:55:09All right.

1:55:10Robert Mays: That is all we've got from week five in the NFL. Quick reminder, look at Katie's just on it. She knows I'm going back to the hangover games at the end. She's flashing the graphic on the screen because she knows I won't remember them an hour and 45 minutes into the show. Tomorrow on the hangover, Ravens, Falcons, Bengals, Dolphins, Titans, Texans, including some Marvin Harrison Jr. trade talk. That will be what we hit tomorrow. That's all for tonight. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode.

1:55:42Robert Mays: If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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