Week 7 recap: Seahawks = still very good, Bengals offense explodes & are the Ravens done?

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2:01Robert Mays: That's Apollo.io. Welcome to The Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays. Week 7 was a banger in the NFL, and we have a lot to get to. Kicked things off with a Sunday night football game, chatted about Lions, Packers, Bengals, big offensive performance, a little bit about the Falcons clawing their way back into the NFC South, some WTF moments from the Houston Texans. My God, the New York Jets and the Carolina Panthers. And then we talked about what the heck the Vikings are and what to make of it seven weeks into the season. Me, Dave and Derek, let's get into it right now.

2:50Robert Mays: Lots to get into from the week seven slates today. We're going to hit seven different games that happened. A few games we're saving for the hangover, just to throw it out there right now. St. Steelers, Broncos, Cardinals, Rams, Raiders are all games that we will talk about tomorrow. But let's kick off the conversation we are having with a very impressive win for the Seattle Seahawks. I'm going to give Dave credit here because when we were previewing this game, where Dave kind of focused his energy was the idea of, okay, if you remove the run game from the Chiefs that they've leaned on all year, what would the offense look like and would they have a path forward in this game?

3:30Robert Mays: That's what happened. They were unable to run the ball, and so we got to see what the Chiefs' offense would look like if you remove Kenneth Walker's impact, and the answer against the Seahawks was a team that had relatively no shot.

3:41Derrik Klassen: I appreciate the opportunity at a layup, but this is, it was pretty easy to see coming. Not that the Seahawks would definitively shut Kenneth Walker down, but so much about what the Chiefs have been through the first five games of their season was him. He was the explosive element. He was the consistency. And my gosh, did Seattle swarm him? And without him, you saw what it looked like. And granted, we know that this is a really good Seattle team, even with their record. But for where the Chiefs have been over this run and where they're trying to go, you have every right to be concerned, in my opinion, about what this offense looks like when he's not giving you that juice.

4:23Derrik Klassen: Because you wind up targeting Noah Gray and Travis Kelsey 11 times in a game and getting really nothing resembling consistent explosiveness from your passing game. And it was incredibly impressive by Seattle, but incredibly concerning, in my opinion, for Kansas City, because I think this was pretty easy to see coming. Not that very many teams can shut Kenneth Walker down, but if that happens, I think it's going to be a struggle as this offense is currently constructed.

4:54Dave Helman: I think it just reminds you how thin the margins are for this team. like I without Kenneth Walker being able to give you I don't know 120 150 yards a game you remember that yeah they don't really have any good receivers and not any big receivers especially you know the Tyquan Thornton thing continues to loom large I think for them and we we said coming into this game like if they can't get the explosives from Kenneth Walker and we know their only explosive receiver is no longer on the field what are they going to be able to do the answer was nothing they had absolutely nothing against the Seahawks down the field in this game and they really struggled over the middle because a lot of their over the middle stuff I think has been I think earlier in the season they were able to access in part because Taequann Thornton was taking over the top and in part because defense is really respected what they were doing in the run game but if that's gone it goes back to can Patrick and Travis make some magic over the middle of the field and you you they just don't have enough of that right now for that to be something that they can consistently rely on so credit to the Seahawks defense I also think too this was like an incredible styles makes fight game in favor of the Seahawks like they're just the perfect team to shut down what the the Chiefs have going on right now I think I think you it was a realization

6:04Robert Mays: and a reminder of how many weaknesses the Chiefs have when they have to play like this because I think something we haven't really talked about that much because the offenses have been playing well enough where there was no need to focus on it when you have backup tackles in the game and you have to drop back and pass 20 times without using play action, you're going to notice all the backup offensive linemen in the game and just the overall quality of the offensive line. Like, Sumat Aya and the tackles one-on-one and pass pro against this group is probably not going to go very well for you, and that's exactly what happened.

6:37Robert Mays: We haven't really noticed it that much because they've been running the ball really well, they've been using a ton of play action, and they've been able to protect those guys in a way they couldn't in this game. Mahomes in this game on non-play action throws, and this was at the time of the Helani touchdown, I don't know what he finished with, was 11 of 20 for 100 yards on non-play action passes. Like they just, when they have to straight drop back and throw against a team like this, it's just not gonna go very well. And when you look at the rushing numbers, against light boxes, into light boxes in this game, Walker had five carries for 16 yards.

7:09Robert Mays: Overall, in the entire game, he had 14 carries for 36 yards, which is 2.6 yards per carry, with a 28.6 % success rate. Like, if you remove that, this team, it's the idea of relying on Kelsey and Mahomes as all of your passing game, at any point in their careers would be, you'd be, the margins would be thin. To do it right now, you just have no shot against a defense like this. And so it really was a good mirror to hold up to this version of the Chiefs to figure out exactly what they were at this point against a really, really good team. And I think the results are, if not troubling, then sobering.

7:49Robert Mays: That's what I would say.

7:51Dave Helman: I mean, can you two remember like a regular season game, really, where Patrick Mahomes got hit this often this hard? Like it just like I can't remember that many times in the regular season where they're just getting slammed that way. Like obviously the Bucks Super Bowl, like you have games like that. But it feels very rare that even when the offensive line is a problem for Kansas City, that he's just getting hit as often as he did. I mean, the strip sack where he gets hit from behind. Oh, my God. How often do you see him not know what's going on? Like, it was just kind of an uncharacteristically.

8:21Dave Helman: You just don't see them rattled that much by the pass rush as you did in this game, which is a testament to how incredible, obviously, the Seahawks D line is.

8:28Derrik Klassen: That hit from Derek Hall, like, came through the TV.

8:31Robert Mays: He was all over the place. I mean, he had that. He had a pressure on a third down. And that was the other thing, just in terms of when you look at the numbers of this game. The Chiefs finished 3 of 11 on third down. The Seahawks finished 11 of 16 on third down. I mean, that was it. The Seahawks on early downs, they ran the ball much better, which we can get into. Might as well get into it now. The defensive performance, I think we can understand that. And Derek, the other thing I would throw in there beyond how hard he was getting hit, they had no explosive plays. None. They had no explosive plays in the game.

9:00Robert Mays: And so we've talked about this. If you're going to beat Seattle, you need to hit a couple explosives in one-on-one outside the number situations on top of being able to not get bored underneath. If you're not going to hit any explosives against this team, they're just going to choke the life out of you over an entire game. And that's exactly what happened in this one. And then on the other side of it, the Seahawks run game was much better than it has been. It was good enough, right? It was good enough to allow everything else to kind of work, which it had not been consistently throughout the season.

9:31Robert Mays: But then they went 11 of 16 on third down, and that's where they did a lot of the damage. which Darnold had multiple scramble first downs with his legs in this game. And they were playing a lot of man coverage on third down, which is understandable given the personnel that the Chiefs have on defense and what they've tried to be this year. The problem is if you're playing man coverage on third down, even if you're trying to like on the play, he had two conversions on one drive. And one of them was like a third and eight in the first half. He was in the slot, JSN was. And they had Snead on him. And it seemed like Gilman might have been trying to bracket him coming down, but there was a motion with the back.

10:10Robert Mays: And so Bolton was flying out of there. So it was a little bit of traffic. And JSN just roasts LeJarrius Sneed from the slot for like a 33-yard gain. And then the touchdown he scored is against cover zero, where Darnold just gives him a chance. He had another big, the other big explosive that he had was against a single high coverage. And so anytime he was one-on-one in this game in high leverage moments, the Seahawks were able to get him the ball. and that was enough when you combine it with some of the ball control things they did underneath tight end screens just making sure that they were taking a lot of the burden off of the quarterback and how fast he was getting the ball out combined with the fact that they ran the ball well enough that overall formula I think is a good one for this team and one that's more than enough when

10:51Dave Helman: the defense is going to play this way I think so too like if the run game can just be it's just not going to be as explosive as it was last year obviously without Kenneth Walker and if it can just give Sam Darnold enough of something to stand on where it doesn't feel like he's getting killed every time he drops back. I think that that helps. I will say too, like I came into this game wondering what was the plan for Jason? And obviously there's no good one because he's the best receiver in the NFL right now, but he, he can get open against anything, but he really is so slippery against man coverage.

11:22Dave Helman: And this is what the chiefs have been trying to be all year is we're going to play more press man. We're going to play a little bit more cover zero than we had in years past. That's why we drafted Mansoor Delane. That's why we want Noel Williams in the lineup. And Mansoor Delane's great. I think he's going to have a fantastic career. Some of those go balls that he's trying to win against JSN, like, I don't even know what you can do because JSN has an uncanny ability to win at the line of scrimmage. He separates incredibly well down the field. He finds the ball well down the field. And also, Sam was putting those in a great spot, man.

11:51Robert Mays: They have incredible chemistry on those throws, like the ball placement and just giving that guy a shot and it's something else his ability to give himself just enough room on the sideline like his understanding of where he is on the field at all times and how to just manipulate those situations is incredible like he is there's just like a preternatural understanding of where he is where the defenders are and how he needs to approach those situations based on all of the inputs he is a special special player you're reminded of it every single time he plays it's

12:24Derrik Klassen: easy to say to yourself when you're watching that game like welcome to the nfl rook about like mansoor delane and then you watch some of those plays back and it's like that's pretty good

12:35Robert Mays: coverage there's no one in the league that can cover him one-on-one i think you did a pretty

12:39Derrik Klassen: good job mansoor it's just it's jsn he had five catches for 82 yards on third down tonight and for that matter obviously it's him and you kind of expect that but george helani had a big third and long pickup in this game. Cooper Cup had a big third and long pickup in this game.

12:55Robert Mays: That was on the same drive where JSN had the two other ones. They had like three third and seven third and eights in a row and the cups was the first one.

13:00Derrik Klassen: Emmanuel Wilson's touchdown was on a third down. Like everybody on this team locked in on third down. And I mean, you have to go 11 of 16 against a Chiefs defense that up until the end of the game was playing really well. Really, really impressive.

13:18Robert Mays: Where are you at with the Seahawks right now? I think all of us, after that game against the Broncos, just the way that the offense had been struggling, I don't think any of us were in a panic mode. I think the reason is it only needs to get so much better for you to be dangerous. And I think that's why I was just never that worried about it. The Seahawks' defense is so good, and it is going to be so good, that you only need the offense to clear a certain bar for you to be really scary. And I think this is the type of game where when you have the running game, that's I mean, they have like a 40 percent rushing success rate when the running game is acceptable.

13:56Robert Mays: And you the quarterback has enough time to get the ball to number 11. It's not that hard to clear whatever bar you need to in order to feel like, oh, yeah, this is the team that won the Super Bowl last year. They can probably do it again.

14:09Derrik Klassen: We kind of got okie doped, too, by the way. Charbonnet didn't play. Like when we recorded the preview, it was all trending that he was going to be available. And then he was ruled out over the weekend. So you did this without even the big reinforcement that we were expecting for the game. I was never worried about Seattle. And yeah, to do this still depleted at running back. They're going to be fine. They were always going to be fine.

14:36Dave Helman: Yeah, I did Seattle radio like earlier this week. and one that the defense has been within punching distance of what it was last year even if it's not like fully fully at its peak all the time so it's like okay you always feel good about them because of that and then offensively I know Sam Darnold's had some bad moments but in my mind I was like well he's always kind of had these turnover games and turnover moments and if the run game can just get a smidgen better and flurry settles in 10 better as a play caller Sam will probably have enough stretches that they can win 11 12 games and that they will be one of the like final four teams potentially left in the NFL like I still think that when the defense has this gear the

15:12Robert Mays: offense only has to be so good the only singular performance I wanted to mention before we moved on even worry is like the way they're using him this year and just the ways you're seeing him over the course of a game last year he was used in a very specific way for the most part and he was important to what they did but this year it's been a little bit of everything and so multiple I mean the two plays that stick out to me he gets the pressure on the Mahomes interception where he's chasing him down from behind and you get the overthrow and then a guy that's that big and does most of his work near the line of scrimmage as some sort of hybrid like slot linebacker edge rusher running step for step with a guy who runs four two down the field like he's just a rare physical specimen and I think that tonight was you were reminded of just how unique a combination of traits that

16:02Dave Helman: guy has and what he brings to the table that rip looked like a funhouse mirror like it just looked wrong seeing the 6-3 safety just run so easily with the 5-10 like sprinter basically that play was insane the other one I thought that was really impressive early on in the game uh there was like a third and one boot to the right hand side for they were trying to get Kenneth Walker like out in the flat a little bit but they had a tight end out to the flat who Emin War was covering initially but he sees Walker coming like two yards behind him and he like baseball turns around to go get a hand in the way and it's an incomplete pass and I was like that kind of spatial awareness and ability to just flip your hips like that it's pretty rare for a guy who's his size so the way that the fact that he was already kind of like a unique and fun piece for them last year and now they're adding different stuff like they've kind of taken away not taken away but like they don't use him as much as a safety anymore he really is just like a we're gonna put him on the line of scrimmage whether it's man coverage in the flat blitzing whatever it's going to be there's a funny

17:00Derrik Klassen: argument last year where imanwari made all of these flash plays and we talked so much about him allowing them to live in nickel and the way like the degree to which we talked about him like outpaced his level of play or and i and but he a he's a rookie b even now he's 22 and he was hurt for a vast majority of the offseason. He barely had a camp or an offseason. And so even if, you know, he outpaced his level of play as a rookie, like that is an insane baseline, you know? And like for him to be where he is at this age and this point in his development, of course Mike McDonald's going to find a way to put more on his plate.

17:41Derrik Klassen: And if that's what it looks like now at this point, it's, my gosh, the potential is so exciting.

17:49Robert Mays: Let's get to some of the other games that really jumped out to us in week seven. It is time for You Have My Attention. Gentlemen,

17:58Derrik Klassen: now you have my attention.

18:00Robert Mays: The Lions knock off the Packers 20-17. This game overall had our attention because the other games in the late window, even if the Raiders came back, for the most part, were not that compelling. We were all pretty locked in to Lions-Packers, and I don't really have a specific entry point into this game. Like, I thought that Jared Goff had some really nice moments, But for the most part, this is just Lions Packers overall. You had our attention on Sunday.

18:26Derrik Klassen: I'm really relieved you chose this framing because I'm hesitant to have like some crazy take from this game. Like it was very entertaining. It was a weird game. It was such a weird game. And both teams took turns trying to screw it up.

18:41Robert Mays: The joke I was I was making, you know, we had the middle eight where it's what are you doing at the end of the second quarter into the end of the second half? The Lions revolutionized that. They had the middle eight fumbles where they fumbled at the end of the first half, and then they decided to come out and fumble at the beginning of the second half. I'm not sure that's how you draw it up when you're trying to attack that situationally in any game.

19:01Derrik Klassen: Still came out with the win. They're all right. How about the clock killing sequence at the end of the game where the Packers went offside on third and five and the Lions are trolling them and like, oh, we did it. We got it. And then like three snaps later, the Lions fall started and made it harder on them than it needed to be. They got the win, and there were elements of this that were really impressive, but that combined with some weird officiating calls, turnovers you mentioned. The two chip shot field goals that the Packers missed.

19:29Robert Mays: Two horrific field goals. Like legitimately chip shot field goals. They said the second one was blocked by DJ Wanham. I went back and I watched the all-22 angle of that. I do not see the ball getting touched on that field goal, so I'm not sure why we're saying that it was blocked. Maybe I'm missing something.

19:46Dave Helman: I think he did get hands on it. They showed at some point on the broadcast that somebody does, but like if the kick is that close, the ball should just be higher. Like getting a kick blocked inside 40 yards is like that's still your fault most of the time.

19:59Robert Mays: I guess I just missed it or maybe I missed it on the broadcast and even on rewatch. It didn't seem like it got hit by anybody. But to your point, that ball should there's no chance that one of those kicks should be blocked. And didn't he miss like a 26 yard field goal in the first half?

20:10Dave Helman: Yes, 26 yards.

20:12Derrik Klassen: The broadcast said he has more misses from 35 and in than the rest of the league combined.

20:19Robert Mays: great stuff not a great place to be i did it in one day this the i mean these teams like the rams we obviously know this but the packers remain in special teams hell for whatever reason all right so dave does not have any big picture quick takeaways about these teams right away derek do you like when you and you look at this game what do you think the most important conclusions are that you could reach about either the packers or the lions

20:43Dave Helman: I mean I actually came away from this game feeling that like these are two like 10-ish win like borderline playoff teams and I think that there were moments to feel good about them from I think that obviously there was some weird stuff the officiating was was questionable obviously the Packers special team stuff is really annoying but I think when you watch the way that both of these two quarterbacks played I think was really really impressive uh Jared Goff made a number of throws that I thought were just sweet in this game especially early on like they were hitting some a lot of really impressive overroutes to Jamison Williams, which actually, by the way, the first deep overroute they throw to Jamison Williams on the right-hand side, if you guys can, go back and watch Jameer Gibbs, his block on Javon Bullard.

21:23Dave Helman: He just sustained blocks him out of this play for three seconds. It's really, really impressive. But I thought in a lot of stretches, both of these quarterbacks I thought really looked good. I think some of what Jordan Love was able to do, backing up and really seeing some of their... there was especially a drive in the middle of the second quarter where Detroit just kept trying to get to these really weird like cover two spins and Jordan Love was just like I'll just rip the seam every single time and he did that a number of times I thought he made a number of other really impressive plays like backing up away from pressure just like finding weird space in the pocket I think he's one of the best in the league at that and then I think from both of these defenses you saw some pretty impressive moments relative to what they had been over the course of the year like I would say too I know that they lost this game but I came into this this year really worried about Green Bay's offensive line and their cornerback room we've talked about the offensive line a little bit and that's still going to be weird with their guard situation and today they were on center three by the way but as far as corner goes Braden Cissé is like it's still up and down because he's a rookie but there was a sequence in this game where he made two incredible plays inside the red zone where he follows and gloves up Jameson Williams on like a corner out to the left-hand side.

22:31Dave Helman: And then on the next play, shoves him out of bounds as he's in the air trying to catch the ball on the back line. And so the fact that they've got young players like really turning up a little bit on defense, even if there were some other questions I had, it's just, you can feel both of these teams, even if it's imperfect, marching along to like a pretty decent conclusion by the end of the year, I feel like.

22:50Robert Mays: The Lions defense specifically, you get Brian Branch back in this game. He obviously has the pick, but there were a couple other moments. I thought they had multiple. I mean, that stretch in the red zone where they try to get the ball to the flat on third down, and then they try to get the ball to the flat again to Golden on fourth down. That was just really well defended by the Lions defense overall in both of those plays. Jack Campbell gets through the trash to kind of take away the throw to Lloyd to the flat and force the fourth down. And then on fourth down, I think it was DJ Reed gets all the way through the trash and makes the play on Matthew Golden.

23:21Robert Mays: And so it was DJ Reed. And it's this the Lions defense. I mean, all they need to do is get to like a basic level of competency considering what we expect from the offense. And you get Brian Branch back. I think the pass rush in this game, like you felt Aiden Hutchinson over the course of the game. Ali McNeil had a bunch of pressures in this game. And even the DBs, like, I think that Rake Straw might be their second best outside corner. And so you combine him with DJ Reed and then like Keith Abney is in the mix at safety. Like, I do think that there is a path for this group just to get to a, we are the 20th best defense in the league.

23:55Robert Mays: We don't give up five explosive passes a game. We are good enough to justify and make relevance how good the offense is. And I think this game specifically was a good step in that direction if you're the Lions.

24:08Derrik Klassen: Did you say Roger McCreary's name?

24:10Robert Mays: No, I did not say Roger McCreary's name.

24:11Derrik Klassen: I thought he had a couple moments as well.

24:12Robert Mays: And he's the nickel corner, right? Like, I think that—and Rick Straw has only played in three games. He's played, like, half the snaps in those three games. But, like, I think with Branch back and just some of the other moving parts in the secondary, we are hopefully getting to a place where they are acceptable. And if that's the case, I'm with Derek. Like, I know Goff tried to throw, like, three interceptions at one point in this game. But other than that stretch where there were a few turnover-worthy plays, I thought he had some, like, I thought he had five or six, like, holy shit throws in this game.

24:40Derrik Klassen: So if I was looking for a big-picture takeaway from this game, it would be that this looked more like the vision you hoped you would see from the Lions, where like the offense is incredible and the defense is just good enough and makes enough plays to give you a chance. And even if there's some wonkiness to it, holding the Green Bay Packers to 17 points is really nice. I just, by the end of the game, it felt, it was so white knuckle and weird that I just, I don't want to overreact and just be like, the Lions have arrived. This is, you know, this is the team we thought they could be. But I was really encouraged.

25:15Derrik Klassen: And as long as you're talking about golf, I wrote down the ones I wanted to talk about specifically. The 28 yard go to Amon Ross St. Brown on like the first drive of the game. Yeah, was a thing of frickin beauty. And then I think, yeah, that that one right there, if you're watching just a gorgeous, gorgeous throw to get that inside of the DB. And then the other one I and I think it's worth mentioning. I know we try not to harp on the referees. I thought the refs had a frickin awful.

25:43Robert Mays: Oh, it's awful.

25:44Derrik Klassen: I mean, it's the grounding on Jordan Love.

25:46Robert Mays: That was the worst one. It was the worst one because it was the most impactful because even the roughing call on Carl Brooks, the Lions don't score on that drive. And so ultimately it's like, yeah, they held on to the ball for another couple of minutes, but it wasn't that important to the game. The the grounding call makes it second and 21. And that's right when the interception happens. Like that's a huge call in a huge moment.

26:09Derrik Klassen: Second and 21 in the shadow of your own goalpost, which is going to severely limit your options. Okay, but I'm glad you mentioned the Carl Brooks roughing call because it was the Cox roughing call. The Carl Brooks one did end up mattering because that just added 15 yards onto a scoring drive. The Carl Brooks roughing call. Don't let whether or not you agree with the penalty overshadow that throw. Oh, it was an insane throw. Holy shit. He's got Brooks bearing down on him, and he just fires that thing into the tiniest window. Laporta's surrounded by three guys, leads him well enough to help him get upfield.

26:43Derrik Klassen: just a badass throw and it should be said because i think it's easy to look past that considering how frustrated people were with the referees i mean you look at it they had two fumbles right

26:54Robert Mays: that they handed over to to the packers and then they had two fourth down failures you had the one inside your own 25 where the packers missed the field goal after that and then they had a fourth and goal that they didn't end up getting when it was 17 14 and so you wonder like well how does a team that had a 55 drop back success rate and you're talking glowingly about the offense and this game with 20 points well they essentially had four de facto turnovers if you're including the turnovers on downs like that's how you end up there for the most part down to down the offense looks how you want the offense to look and the other part of it is the the offensive line right i was just about to say that the protection and like that that's the vision of the offense that you need and we started seeing it last week Derek we talked about this like even if it was Arizona you watched how the guards are playing and on in the on the ground game and then you get your starting center back and that group I think has a chance to be a defined strength again for this team and if that's the case combined with golf playing at a really high level we know what the skill position players are I do think that this offense has a chance to live in the kind of stratosphere we expected they might coming into the season they could not get to jared goff and

28:06Dave Helman: if jared goff is clean he's one of the best quarterbacks in the nfl like and even when he's not i think he's better than he was two or three years ago obviously pretty good now man like it's

28:15Robert Mays: much better than it used to be he can find those little slivers of space and he's got a hose

28:20Derrik Klassen: so if he does that ball gets out and it gets on people in a hurry it wasn't the most challenge it It was not a challenging throw at all. But Jared Goff getting away from the pressure to JMO on the mesh touchdown where, you know, Panay Sewell was the other crosser. Old Jared Goff folds in that situation, in my opinion. And like to get away from all of that and get up, like it's not the most impressive looking play on film, but it doesn't matter.

28:46Robert Mays: It's like him finding that space at all. Like we I think we're so you like the way the NFL is currently. There are so few pocket passers remaining. Yeah, that I think we forget that the best quarterbacks in the league used to live like this. Like the best quarterbacks in the league didn't used to be able to move. They were just really, really good at that exact type of shit. And I think he's gotten so much better at it that it really does allow him to be whatever the best version of himself and that kind of quarterback currently looks like.

29:18Dave Helman: And like, man, with all the skill players, if the offensive line is going to be healthy the way it is right now, like they can be a machine on offense. And again, I know they only put up 20 points, but like one, it should have been more than 20, obviously. Like it's they were better than that score suggests. This also is a good Packers defense. Like they have played really well. I think what they've done specifically against the past this year has been really impressive. And so I just thought the fact that they kept him so clean and it's a little bit on the other side of the coin. Like if you're Green Bay, like you'll get Micah Parsons back at some point.

29:48Dave Helman: Like I wouldn't worry about it too much. but if you're Detroit the fact that you're stringing together these games now where it's like we can really protect our quarterback who is again one of the best and most accurate when he is kept clean like I don't know man if they can keep the offensive line healthy this feels like they will gear up into being the offense that we all know that they can be at their best there's a

30:06Robert Mays: little bit of me that watches this game and wonders if it's a sign of how the Packers offense might look if they're not able to push the ball downfield like that that's kind of what we got today they still weren't able to really run the ball even with Josh Jacobs back and Love was one of six on throws of 20 plus air yards in this game so if they're not going to be hyper explosive and they're not going to be able to run the ball that version of the Packers offense I don't know what the realistic ceiling of that thing is but I don't think I'm panicking about that yet I just think that this game was kind of an interesting data point as it relates to that you think that's fair

30:41Dave Helman: I think that's fair I would also still say the fact that they were one of six when that is supposed to be their identity and they still kept this game within three points like if anything I would be like they'll probably have better days most of the time I probably feel okay well the

30:55Robert Mays: I mean Josh Jacobs did was one of their more productive receivers in this game and then he dropped the wheel route that should have been a touchdown I I said I didn't want to rush to like

31:06Derrik Klassen: a concrete take coming out of this game but part of that is i just even though it got goofy at times like i feel pretty good about both of these teams a big piece of that for me is just knowing micah parsons will be part of the equation at some point but i mean derek just said it some of the young guys between cise uh evan williams not necessarily a young guy but just continues to play really really well these days are all period is like i mean the safe the safety is in

31:32Robert Mays: like the way that Cissé is playing, it's, like, Bullard is, I've been throwing it as, like, Bullard is playing some of his best ball. But, like, yeah, it's, they're a spine of the defense, defensive backs, plus Cissé, that's a good group. And that what they've got from the front seven, even without Parsons, until this game had mostly been good enough.

31:49Derrik Klassen: And going against Detroit's offensive line, like, on the road, if that's what it looks like without Parsons, I feel pretty encouraged by that. I made a note specifically that I wanted to shout out. Deny Dennis Sutton on the swing pass to Jameer Gibbs. I think it was on third and short when the Lions went for it in their own territory. You're never picking him to win that rep against Jameer Gibbs. And I thought it was so impressive that he did. And another young guy that's shown you some encouraging stuff. And if this is what it looks like without Micah, like I said, I feel pretty good about both of these teams.

32:25Derrik Klassen: It was a fun but weird game.

32:27Robert Mays: And I think the last point I would make on it is that of all the four units in this game, the one I feel come out of this game feeling the best about is the Lions offense. And it shouldn't surprise us, right? Like, I think we all thought they could be like a top tier, top three, hyper elite group. And that would ultimately dictate how far this team would go and what they would be able to do. And I still feel that way. Like, with a new coordinator, with some moving pieces along the offensive line, with the offensive line being a question mark last year to the degree that it was, I think what we have seen, what we saw from them today and what we have seen from them through the first seven weeks, I don't really, nothing has dampened like how I feel about the Lions and their offense moving forward.

33:10Robert Mays: Like I think this is going to be a group that makes this team relevant very deep into the season. All right, before we move on, let's take our first quick. Football season has arrived, and with the U.S. Bank's Smartly Visa signature card, you earn an unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase, including at the stadium or at home watching on a brand new TV. Score big with unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase. Visit usbank.com slash smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions may apply.

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37:11Robert Mays: the Cincinnati Bengals after going down I think it was 13 nothing right yep they were down 13 nothing put up 35 points in the second half of this game we'll get into some of the numbers for the Bengals passing game and for Joe Burrow specifically but the Cincinnati Bengals now sitting at four and two hanging 35 second half points on the Ravens you guys firmly have our

37:35Dave Helman: attention which Ravens were which Bengals player do we want to start with because I would like to

37:40Derrik Klassen: start with T Higgins how do you I thought how do you start with anyone else he it's my was out of

37:46Dave Helman: his mind in this game like so they're like I think my favorite play that he makes is there's a play where he's running like a dig route from the right hand side it's an insane insane football he's Joe Burrows is trying to throw the ball like right past Roquan Smith but Roquan Smith is in good enough position that he's about to pick this ball off T Higgins is running behind him jumps in front of him on his inside shoulder plucks the ball away from him and just keeps going and I'm like I just don't know how often you ever see a receiver come back and attack the ball over a middle of the field hook player like that it was like reached around him to make the catch it made no sense i've never seen that man it was one of the coolest plays i've saw all year like today that was my favorite play by far that was unbelievable we talked about this in the

38:35Robert Mays: preview show and we were talking about the bangles offense and okay and they were more under center in the first half in this game and then they just said it again and then they were sitting the gun the entire second half and listen hard to argue with the results i i'm fine with approaching it that way but okay if they're gonna be for the most part this gun drop back team again how are things going to feel different and why were they going to feel different what T Higgins has been for them as an intermediate middle of the field receiver and not only it's not even just an obligatory like oh we're throwing it there so stop bothering us about it he looks incredible at it so him not only being a viable option in that area but somehow being like one of the more dangerous intermediate over the middle receivers in the NFL so far this year on top of what he's giving you down the field like that that's what I walk away from this game feeling if I was just talking and thinking about the Bengals is that even if they're gonna have to play like this or they continue to play like this the receivers look as good as they've ever looked in all of the different ways that they're impacting the game and so if that's gonna be the case with a good pass protection offensive line compared to other seasons and a quarterback who can still do all this stuff like that is really exciting like that is worth getting juiced up about if you were a Bengals fan because the idea that they could be better than they've been in previous years I don't think really crossed our minds right now they look like they might be better those two in combination than they've ever been because of the ways they're impacting the game I mean Higgins is like Chase

40:12Dave Helman: is always chasing he had some really good plays in this game but Higgins really does feel like he's leveled up again which I mean because he had the play that we just talked about he had a really nice like corner route into the cover two hole uh somewhere in the middle of the third quarter he then had there was a play where Joe Burrow made uh I think it was Trenton Simpson as a free rusher like miss in the pocket he scoots up a little bit throws a complete duck and T Higgins just comes back snags it out of the air so he really made like every kind of play that you can make in that 11 to 30 yard area and he's just been doing that all season like he's just the way that he attacks the ball has always been really impressive to me but I just think that you're seeing him get open and play with an unbelievable amount of confidence and Joe Burrow is playing rightfully so with an unbelievable amount of confidence in him like whenever they can get the ball to just those

41:00Derrik Klassen: two receivers the offense looks absolutely insane it's a far cry from targeting Dante Myers on third down in the first half and having him drop the ball that uh the the one that you started with the dig that he just plucked off of roquan smith's shoulder was the third play after halftime and their first explosive in the game and like that was the noon window i had eight games on and my parents were at my house there's a bunch of shit going on and i saw that happen and immediately was like that's different that hasn't been happening for cincinnati all day and they

41:32Robert Mays: they scored like five plays after that the drive to go up 23 13 to me is the starkest example of what this can be for this team they throw burrow flips it to chase on a curl he makes starks and humphrey miss in space and turns it into a 33 yard gain after the catch and i think on the next play or a couple plays later they just have a massive chunk on a go ball to t higgins against single high where Joe, all he does is I'm keeping my eyes to the left for half a second to hold the safety. I know he's one-on-one teased down there somewhere. They get a huge chunk and they score a touchdown like immediately.

42:11Robert Mays: And you watch that sequence of events and considering the way the Dallas Cowboys offense is currently operating, that's the only offense in the league that can do that. Where like on those back-to-back plays, you have one of the most impressive physical specimens who's ever played receiver in the NFL making a 33 yard catch. And he was outshined today by the other guy on his team because of the way that T Higgins has been playing. They are a unique animal and the way that they are currently playing, especially the way that Higgins is currently playing. They feel incredibly potent. It's fun as hell to watch.

42:45Dave Helman: You have the best receiver with the ball in his hands and the best receiver at getting the ball in his hands at the catch point. They're like the coolest receiver duo, one of the coolest I've ever seen. I also just think that like, I will say too in this game, I think some of what Cincinnati was trying to do, obviously with being the under center stuff and trying to figure out what they wanted to be in the first half. I think that there was a lot of considerations there. I felt Joe Burrow was just not super confident. He was like bailing out of pockets early in the first half. And in the second half, it felt like he came out and was like, I'm just going to throw it to all of my good skill players.

43:21Dave Helman: I'm just going to let the ball rip immediately. They're going to make me right. And he was putting the ball in a really good place in all of these throws, and they were making him right. Like the couple of plays that we just mentioned, the corner route touchdown he throws to Gesicki was beautiful. The one that he throws to Chase was beautiful. Like, and also the, he threw a touchdown to T Higgins, that little post that he throws over the middle, right across Kyle Hamilton's face. Like Joe Burrow, I think has been like fairly good this year. And there have been a little bit of ups and downs. I thought the second half of this game was the best ball that he's played the entire season.

43:52Dave Helman: Like not even close.

43:53Robert Mays: He was 16 of 19 for 249 and four touchdowns. He had a 2.71 time to throw with 10.8 air yards per attempt in the second half of this game. He averaged 1.16 EPA per drop back in the second half. 1.16. Every time he dropped back to throw, the Bengals got a point.

44:12Derrik Klassen: I really appreciate you contextualizing that because like it's in the name, but it's easy for your eyes to just glaze over when you've heard enough numbers. That's contextualizing like that is crazy.

44:24Robert Mays: They just put him back in the gun and said, go to work with those two guys. And the way the Ravens have played this year, I mean, and we could talk about the Ravens part of this now if you guys want to. The Ravens, like the soft zone that the Ravens have been playing, like you saw it against Cleveland last week and not as consistently, but there was air in the coverage multiple times at high leverage moments against the Browns last week and the Browns took advantage of it. And so I think the Bengals just got to a point in the second half that was like, if you're going to give us windows, we'll find them.

44:52Robert Mays: Like the quarterback is capable of doing that. And that's exactly what they did in the second half of this game. And we can talk about the Ravens offense. And so the struggles and the frustrations in this game, multiple kind of short yardage disasters for the Ravens that ultimately come back to bite them. But the offense, even with those couple, like you have the fourth and two failure. You have a third and two sack in the fourth quarter. Like even with that stuff, you probably weren't going to have enough firepower to win this game and score more than 35 points. Like the offense did what you'd expect it to do with the backup quarterback, which is a whole nother conversation.

45:29Robert Mays: Like, I can't believe that we're having another season nuked by Lamar Jackson missing a month. Like, I can't, I can't believe this. Like some of the reporting on the injury has been, he came out this week and was like, it is a high ankle sprain. so you can understand if he does miss like three to four weeks with it, whatever. But from when it happened, I'm pretty sure Jesse Minter said he could have gone back in the game. That's what he said. When it happened. And so now to have missed this sort of stretch, and now we're like really taking a bite out of another Ravens season in a way that none of us could have imagined, that part is frustrating.

46:03Robert Mays: But in this game specifically, the defense is the thing that you leave worried about. Like this is a group that I think there was a decent amount of collective enthusiasm for coming into the year, and they got barbecued in the second half of this game. They had no shot.

46:19Dave Helman: It was giving up too much air and coverage and missing tackles, which is usually the sign of a bad defense, even if the Ravens defense has been mostly fine this year. They've been average. They've been a solid defense. Which averaged for having just gotten a new defensive coordinator in there and you're trying to learn the system, totally fine for the first six weeks of the season. But this was not their best day, obviously. I think that there were certain parts, especially early in the second quarter, where it just felt like they thought they were getting covered to the Bengals thought that they were going to get covered to the boundary every time.

46:48Dave Helman: And they just kept throwing it. The Gasicki touchdown, the Higgins one that I mentioned earlier, they were like, we're just going to get that and we're going to take it. And so that felt like a little tell that they were able to pick up on. I also just thought like Kyle Hamilton is a very special player. This was maybe the worst game I've ever seen him play. The Higgins touchdown, I mentioned earlier, where I think it's just one-on-one coverage and Higgins races across his face. That's a touchdown.

47:11Robert Mays: Yeah, they have Higgins at three on that play out of a little bunch. And so they give him essentially like a free release against Kyle Hamilton one-on-one.

47:17Dave Helman: Yeah, and he just like takes the two-way go inside, wins that across his face. And there was a lot like, Burrow didn't have to make a great throw. Like Higgins was open by a lot. And so like that was a tough moment. I think the first play of the fourth quarter, he misses a tackle on one of the running backs in the flat like on a swing that it would have been like a four yard loss if he makes his tackle he doesn't it ends up being like an eight yard game that's a huge swing and then on the uh samaj piran touchdown like on the goal line they're on like the one or two kyle hamilton's in the backfield and hits him and he just like can't wrap him up and he misses it was it was a

47:50Derrik Klassen: really i just have never seen him play a game like that it's frustrating too because he made that play earlier in the game i don't remember if it was it was in the first half obviously because all the good shit happened for the Ravens in the first half, but he knifed through that a gap on a, on a short yardage situation in the first or second quarter and made that play. And then to miss on the exact same thing later in the game. And also if you didn't bring up Marlon Humphrey, did you Derek? Not yet, but you can go ahead. Tough, tough day for Marlon Humphrey. I mean, you don't, it's, it's not, you don't need in-depth analysis.

48:25Derrik Klassen: Just go pull up like any T or Jamar explosive gain and he's there missing a tackle or getting cooked.

48:31Robert Mays: We said during the summer when we did the Players Who Can Swing the Season show, I said going in, you'll probably be able to figure out how good the Ravens defense was if you tell me what sort of season Marlon Humphrey had at the end of the year. And so the fact that he had a rough day on their worst day, maybe not surprising. I want to have two big picture conversations very quickly that relate to this game. One, I think the Bengals should be at the table.

48:57Derrik Klassen: why wouldn't they interesting why shouldn't they okay do you want an earnest answer to that

49:02Dave Helman: question and it is who are the other i think who are the other candidates i would have to we would

49:07Derrik Klassen: have to think about here's here's my rebuttal and it really pissed me off they did they clean it up in the second half baltimore was eight of 11 on third down in the first half of this game they converted a third and nine with a 48 yard touchdown to zay zay had a 20 yard gain on third and 13. Rashad Bateman picked up a third and 16. Like Snoop Huntley was cooking them in the first half of this game.

49:34Robert Mays: Zay Flowers is a good player. The Bengals have like the 15th best defense in the league right now. Why do the Bengals not get a seat at the table with a surefire top five offense with the way that we just talked about those receivers? If they're anything better than like a truly bad defense why don't they belong here in the same way that like the detroit lions belong here or the buffalo bills like oh like why is that any different i don't understand how

50:00Dave Helman: that's different the the lions is compelling the bills is different to me because josh is kind of an animal on unto himself i guess though having jamar and t kind of makes you them i think i was gonna say i don't believe the defense is actually that good but neither is the bills or the lions defense.

50:18Robert Mays: I don't know how good the defense is, but I know it's not bottom five in the NFL bad. And like that to me is, that's what we talked about all off season. Like, could it drag, could they drag themselves out of that sort of basement? They have the front is good. The front has good players. Like I, right now, I think they deserve to be on there. I don't know why we're so hesitant about it.

50:39Dave Helman: Here's, I don't know if it's necessarily that they are undeserving in a vacuum, who are the other candidates? It would be like the Bears, the Patriots. I feel like I'm missing one potentially. Maybe I'm not.

50:52Derrik Klassen: Bears, Patriots. I mean, the undefeated Minnesota Vikings. The undefeated Minnesota Vikings.

50:57Dave Helman: We'll talk about the Vikings. I don't know what to do with the Vikings. We're going to set them aside to the moment. I do not feel like they are an obviously better football team than the Patriots or the Bears.

51:07Derrik Klassen: Ooh. Oh, no. See, I'll... Of the... Ooh, that's tough. of the three teams you mentioned, I think I feel the best about the Bengals.

51:19Robert Mays: I don't know. It's a complicated question for me specifically.

51:23Derrik Klassen: Oh, yeah. People are begging me to petition you to put the Bears at the table.

51:27Robert Mays: It's a complicated question for me specifically. You're going to be the last person on earth to believe in the Bears. We'll see what happens with the Bears and the Seahawks next week. That's what I'll say about the Bears. That's a really good litmus test. That's what I'll say about the Bears in this situation. I just think with the Bengals specifically, the criteria we have used for other teams consistently in this exercise we are not abiding by it and whether the Bengals belong at the table. We're not. And so I think that right now, based on what we saw, based on what the offenses looked like, if you just look at, again, maybe it should be more complicated than this, but top five offense plus 18th best defense puts you there.

52:00Robert Mays: It puts you there. And they are that. And so I just think that the criteria should apply to all the teams. And it does not apply to them for some reason.

52:08Dave Helman: Well, I agree with that, but those two teams earned it before the season. That's the difference. And so, like, the Bengals are now having to get there after the season has started. So I feel like that is a little bit of a different thing. And the reason I say, again, I don't know that they're necessarily undeserving in a vacuum, but New England has a better overall DVOA than them, and the Bears are, like, two spots behind having played a backup quarterback for half the season.

52:32Robert Mays: Why don't we do this? Here's what I'll say. I don't think the Bears and the Patriots are undeserving. I think that the Bengals deserve to be on there more than the Broncos do right now. The Ravens are on there right now.

52:43Dave Helman: That I would agree with.

52:44Robert Mays: I think we should put the Bengals on because if we're going to put one of those other teams on, I think there are other teams on here that you could take off in favor of them. I don't think we have to pick the Bengals over the Bears or the Patriots long term. I think we can put the Bengals at one of those seats and then we can figure out the rest later.

53:02Dave Helman: Okay, that's fine. Because I think I definitely agree with you on the Broncos. The Broncos are not a serious football team. Despite having won by like multiple scores today.

53:09Derrik Klassen: Are we taking the Broncos off right now?

53:11Dave Helman: I don't think not yet, but I'm getting there.

53:14Robert Mays: I think as we think about the other teams that might be deserving, I still want to be in wait-and-see mode. The Patriots are still serving out their punishment, and they lost last week. And with the Bears, I still want to see a little bit more. I still just want to see a little bit more. And so I think we can put the Bengals on, and we can revisit the other teams later.

53:29Derrik Klassen: I'm fine with this at the end of the day, but do you think I'm dumb if it weirds me out that it was one half of football? Like, if the Bengals had won by the same score, but it had looked more consistent throughout, I would be like, yeah, of course, that's totally fine. But the fact that the first half was a dumpster fire and then we just got this supernova of ability over the second half of the game, I don't know, it just makes me feel a little uneasy.

53:57Robert Mays: I think if you can do that in a half of football against a half-decent defense, it says a lot to me. That's probably fair.

54:03Derrik Klassen: Their losses are to the 5-2 Steelers and the Jags. like we might be we might be being unnecessarily hard on the bench

54:11Robert Mays: that is my stance is that we are being unfair to them compared to how we treat the other teams

54:15Derrik Klassen: is that just because they've burned us before

54:18Robert Mays: I think it's because definitely yes but I think that's part of it I also think that also

54:25Derrik Klassen: it's not worth getting into this conversation do you not care for synergy at all you guys can't see me over here but I'm screaming that you put the helmet on there like that that's crazy you don't want the helmets to look the same you just plop it down willy nilly I was making a point Got a visual medium to worry about here.

54:39Dave Helman: They played a good game. They beat a backup quarterback in a worse defense than the Bears just did. That's all I'm saying.

54:44Robert Mays: We'll have a conversation about the Bears after next Monday. Oh, man. Okay.

54:48Dave Helman: Fair enough.

54:48Derrik Klassen: You're doing that recap, right? I'll be on the recap, yes.

54:51Robert Mays: Yes.

54:52Derrik Klassen: We're going to have the Charles Barkley meme. We're going to have a dialogue after Seahawks-Bears one way or the other.

54:58Robert Mays: The other conversation I want to have very quickly. What the hell do we make of AFC North? What do we make of it? Good football. We're not going to talk about the Steelers or the Browns on this show specifically. The Browns beat the Titans. I don't think that's some easy Browns fans. Casey Concepcion was amazing in this game. That's all I have to say about the game for the most part. They beat the Titans, and they went down to the wire against the Titans. I think we're okay here. I don't know what to make of the division. I just went on my rant about the Ravens and how I cannot believe that we're getting like this weird-ass Ravens season again, considering how well Lamar was playing over the first month of the season.

55:32Robert Mays: his durability is like a convert is like a worthwhile talking point like if he's gonna miss a month of every single year like that's a that's a point against him no matter how like i'm not saying the injury isn't legitimate not at all i'm saying if he's gonna miss four games in every single season it's a conversation we have to have about him period and so the fact that this season has become this sort of raven's weirdness again and the bangles are at the table fine i think that you can make an argument right now they might be the best team in the division they're not winning the division. I'm still, I don't really, I need to see a lot more from the Browns offense before I'm like treating them like a legitimate playoff team.

56:08Robert Mays: Like I, we just need to see more of it. It's been very up and down consistently. The Steelers are the team where I'm like,

56:16Dave Helman: I'm an actual good football team.

56:18Robert Mays: Correct. And I think that that to me is the most notable. Against our preconceived notions of the team's conversation, that's worth having. I think the Steelers have transitioned from being a wild card cannon fodder team to a I'm legitimately interested in what they will look like over the rest of the season. And I think there are two reasons for that. One, the run game is real and the ability to run the ball is real. The defense is the same level of defense for the most part as it's been for a while. Like they're a borderline top 10 defense. And I said this coming into the game and I said it last week, the quarterback is actually playing and it has made them interesting.

56:57Robert Mays: He is like actually playing with the types of throws he's willing to make some of the stuff he's doing outside of the pocket. Like I feel like he picks his spots. It's not always great. There are stretches where it's frustrating. But when you compare what we have seen from Aaron Rodgers over the first seven weeks of this season to what we saw from him in all of last season and all of what he did in 2024 when he was with the Jets he's actually playing the position in a real way with an offense that has enough other stuff where they become interesting and so I am intrigued by the Steelers in a way that I have not been I think in quite some time I don't know what the end point is or the ceiling is

57:33Derrik Klassen: but to Derek's point they're just a good team the Steelers offensive line is so exciting yes like it is that is one of the most fun mostly young not mostly like really young units in the

57:48Robert Mays: NFL Fatan who had his issues against Chase Young and pass protection today but their ability to run the ball the way that they can I think gives an engine to the offense and it almost like it's a mind trick to not allow Rodgers to play into his worst impulses like I do think that's part of it and so I I'm just I'm more interested in them and I find them more compelling than I have in a really a long time as I'm trying to like think about what we think about the division overall.

58:13Dave Helman: They don't. I used to like bemoan the Steelers being a nine win team that I had to care about. I actually enjoy like watching them and seeing them. They are a very good litmus test, I think, for a lot of teams. And I think they're a team that like I don't think they're going to go to the Super Bowl, but they can win a playoff game or two and make this thing, I think, a lot more irritating for the rest of the division than I think they want it to be. So, yeah, Browns will see until the offense comes around. but like there are, I think, three seriously very good teams in this division.

58:41Derrik Klassen: I jogged my own memory. I think this is worth bringing up way more than losing to the Bengals with a backup quarterback. As frustrating as the second half might have been, the Ravens lost Benga Ioane today. For good? I don't know. I know he got hurt. He got hurt. I do not know the severity, but if I'm a Ravens fan, that's what I'm losing sleep about on Sunday night. Hopefully that is not a long-term injury because even when Lamar comes back, I think that severely affects your ceiling. That's how highly I think of how well Venga Juane was playing.

59:13Robert Mays: Yeah, the offense is hard. It's hard to make. It's hard to say much about the offense considering Lamar hasn't played. The defense is worse than I expected it to be. And it's not, they haven't made strides as we've gotten deeper into the season. Like they've had some really rough moments over the last two weeks. Down to down against the Browns, it was good, but they gave up some really important high leverage plays. And then today they got barbecued by the Bengals in the second half. And so I'm willing to wait until Lamar gets back and we get a sense of what the offense is because I think the offensive ceiling is extremely high when he's playing.

59:44Robert Mays: But they are, the answer is incomplete right now about what the Ravens are. And so I think that's why I'm fine still having them here, but there are elements of what's going on that concern me. It starts to feel a lot like last year all of a sudden. Let's get to our last one here for you have my attention. It was a long detour. the Atlanta Falcons hand the San Francisco 49ers their first loss of the season and by going to three and four right Falcons are three and four and four by going to three and four the Falcons seem very much alive in what has become a very muddy weird NFC South and so the Atlanta Falcons beating the Niners for the first time this year you guys have our attention I mean if you're gonna

1:00:30Dave Helman: to have arguably the best side of the ball in the division given their all like what their offense can be at certain points because how good bajon is how good drake london is and obviously the bucks defense is good we'll talk about them at some point um i think you can win this division like i think it's all it's gonna take is to be really good on one side of the ball and like pretty decent on the other and i do think that their defense some of what they were able to do in this game i thought in the second half was like super super impressive like i know that this was towards the end of the game and so we can backtrack from this but like the last interception that brock purdy throws where they're running like a sim pressure and kendall daniels like mugs up to the line of scrimmage and then he pops out purdy is trying to throw a dig route at like 14 yards and kendall daniels is like two yards off the line of scrimmage and he just leaps into the air and

1:01:14Derrik Klassen: his arms are so long 32 and a half inches i looked up his combine measurables tonight yes six five

1:01:21Dave Helman: with 32 and a half inch arms you're you're gonna be able to do the like madden glitch jump interception type stuff and he legitimately did that to brock purdy like i holy shit you're so

1:01:31Derrik Klassen: right that that that pick gets me to restart my game in madden i'm just like yes every time that

1:01:38Robert Mays: is a chuck the controller at the tv sort of moment for the niners which i i'm 100 with you guys that that play was great i i just i love watching the front i i love watching the front like mason smith in this game and and i we've talked about the quality and the play style of the falcons defensive line at points this season where I just think when you that sort of defensive system where you're playing that like attack front and there there's like nuances to what they do because it's more five down and they've had to like kind of tweak it from like the old school Jim Schwartz Chris Kocurek type things but when you watch them play that's exactly the style that they play with we've seen this that style and that system get the most out of guys consistently and that's what's happening but i think that ian cunningham specifically deserves a lot of credit for the bets they made along the defensive line this offseason because for the most part they were modest bets right like mason smith you trade for ruka roo and so you're not giving up draft capital to do it he had a forced fumble in this game he had a sack in this game i mean the the forced fumble he just teleports past the center from like a head up nose to make that play and he had a sack Gravon Dexter, they traded for a fifth round pick and he's come in and again, in a different system he looks like a much more impactful player I was talking to somebody from there last week and they're like, he hasn't even started figuring out how to play like us yet and he's already having this sort of impact and then the other one was those two guys and then, oh, Samson Edukam like they signed him for nothing and that's one of those, like I think the bets they made knowing if we put this guy in our system and we ask him to play like we ask guys to play, we will get more from them.

1:03:22Robert Mays: And they've done that with so many different bets along the defensive line. I just don't think we've said Ian Cunningham's name when talking about what we've gotten from the Falcons defense. And I think them hitting on all of these really modest bets and coming out on the other side, looking like they look, it's a credit to everyone, the staff, but also the guys who were tasked with putting this thing together.

1:03:42Dave Helman: And I don't think he was as big in this game, but like Cameron Thomas signing for nothing, Kendall Daniels who we just talked about I know that's a draft pick not a signing but like that's like a somebody you pick up for basically nothing like that what they have gotten in terms of like ROI for all of their moves this offseason was pretty incredible given that I feel like a lot of us thought that this was supposed to be like a we'll reset a little bit and see what we get

1:04:04Derrik Klassen: from Michael Penick season and it's very much not that it no it was like we we were right yeah that's what it was intentionally did did it that way and it's just a credit to the bets that they made and coaching by Jeff Ulbrich, by Kevin Stefanski, Tommy Reese, like all of these guys, like it's a credit to them because that definitely was the game plan. And they're just getting more out of their personnel than most people gave them credit for. Z'Darrius Smith had some big plays

1:04:35Robert Mays: in the street right before the season started. I mean, it's they've gotten the most out of every single one of those guys. And to be honest, like that's the selling point of this defense. like they tell players that like if you come play in this system you'll set career highs you'll make money we used to joke about it with the casurk thing i used to joke that it was the chris casura career habilitation plan that's not just like a funny one-liner from a podcaster like they legitimately sell the defense and sell the landing spot to players in that same exact way and you're seeing why with the way that group is playing so far this year he's obviously he's been one of the

1:05:10Derrik Klassen: best at his position for a long time he's not a street signing but then you get an acrobatic red zone interception from jesse bates and you're just like oh yeah they got jesse bates and he forced

1:05:20Robert Mays: the fumble later in the game it's such a great player on offense i really liked the plan from two things about the way the falcons played in this game that i think jumped out i really liked the plan of how they were going to get the ball out of the quarterback's hands quickly right like Like he was not holding onto the ball at all in this game. And so you had a lot of screens like consistently where drive starters, like it's a tight end screen for eight yards. It's a screen to London for eight yards. They did a lot of that. And he checked the ball down a lot in this game. And they were often the right plays in the moment.

1:05:53Robert Mays: But those plays were the amount of times Michael Panix was able to get through an entire progression in this game or get front side to backside. It was happening often. And that's a pass protection thing. and I think the interior specifically in this game and the guys out there out are Nuzel and Chris Lindstrom. The overall, the front interior part of the pocket in this game was rock solid for almost the entire time. I think they finished with a, yeah, the Niners had a 17 % pressure rate. Penix was 22 of 28 for 191 and three touchdowns when not pressured in this game. And so all of the ability to get backside on some of these throws and then the touchdown to London, he starts frontside on that play, snaps back, immediately off the hitch, throws it.

1:06:41Robert Mays: And I actually think Renardo Green plays this okay. Like to be able to play in the middle of both of those verticals, if Penix doesn't throw it with that timing, there's a chance that Renardo Green can probably make a play on that ball. But because he lets it go immediately, it's a touchdown. And so when you keep this guy clean, you see what he can do. And in this game, they kept him clean.

1:07:02Dave Helman: their plan like there because I mean that's some of the best stuff that Stefanski and Tommy Reese did in Cleveland which was all the screens like to tight ends running backs like their just ability to whether it's being able to generate one free explosive a game or like you said drive starters where the quarterback can immediately like take a deep breath and be like okay we're moving the ball already I think that that's good the throw to London man I thought that that was so good too because the Niners even though it's a you know slightly different system now with Raheem Morris it's still a lot of rotation cover three.

1:07:30Dave Helman: And that's what it was on that play where they're rotating the other way. But if the safety is rotating down to the right-hand side, the other safety is going to move up away from where London is running his little seam route. And so I just thought Penix's ability to immediately see that rip the seam ball to London. Like you said, Renato Green is kind of there for like a bang-bang play. And the ball just beats him there. And obviously London, if he's able to shield the ball from you, you're not going to get it. And so I thought even if they didn't take that many big shots like down the field in this game the fact that they were able to deliver on one when they really needed it was was huge anything that's about the Niners in this game

1:08:06Robert Mays: I mean you turn the ball over four times you still give yourself a chance to win

1:08:10Derrik Klassen: I will say I mean I'm not gonna shit on them for losing for the first time in week seven but we had a conversation leading into this weekend about how even at six and oh the Niners don't feel like this overwhelming force and I it showed up in this game why they look kind of fragile I mean I think Derek and I talked about it after the Monday night game I think it's good that you sit Mike Evans for this game because now you go into the bye week you're giving Mike Evans a lot of time to get healthier but a Niners receiver didn't catch a pass until halfway through the third quarter in this game Jordan Watkins God bless him he tried his best but you see a huge difference there when you don't have Mike Evans.

1:08:51Derrik Klassen: Christian McCaffrey was in and out of the lineup in this game. He had his lowest touch count of the season. I think he felt that as well. Well, the running backs are putting the ball on the ground. That too. Yeah. I mean, Kalen Black had the big fumble. They found them back-to-back plays. Yeah, they got one of them. That's right. Yeah. So, I mean, those are two big dominoes, and hopefully those guys can get healthy over the bye week, but it starts to feel real fragile real quick with this group.

1:09:16Robert Mays: I'll say this. I don't disagree with that. And I think that having to plan around and work around the receiving talent in a world where Mike Evans even is playing, like who else are the receivers on this team? The Niners had a 54 % offensive success rate in this game. And they turned the ball over four times. I think that ultimately the health of the stars will dictate what the ceiling is, but they still move the ball very efficiently, even with the players who weren't involved in the game. They're 6-1.

1:09:45Dave Helman: yeah I also think like the first interception that Purdy throws the one where Bates makes that insane catch I don't know if Purdy was trying to throw that away or I don't think he was I think he thought Cowling was going to keep running and he stops running to the sideline and then so he's like not there near the sideline and Bates just scoops it I think that's what happened I think

1:10:06Robert Mays: he's trying to throw the ball to the pylon that's what I think he's trying to throw the ball to the receiver that's standing near the pylon and i don't think he sees bates fall off of cowling

1:10:15Dave Helman: underneath it i think that's what happens yeah because bates looks busy that's more worrisome to me because that ball's not close to getting there i think that's what he was trying to do if it is i if it is that's not a good throw away and half trying i don't know like i'm curious if

1:10:31Robert Mays: somebody asked him about that but when i re-watched the zoomed out version of it that's what i felt

1:10:37Dave Helman: it felt unlucky regardless where i was like i don't i don't think he just like like it felt like something weird happened beside birdie just making a bad i will say you expect base to fall

1:10:46Robert Mays: off of him like that i don't think he expected him to be there when he was trying to make that throw throwing it away or throwing it to whoever that was standing by the power also how many guys

1:10:54Derrik Klassen: turn that into an interception yeah i know like i'm sure in brock purdy's mind and i think he's right. Like 99 out of a hundred times. That's yeah. It's like a throwaway or like maybe Jesse Bates gets hands on it and it's just a broken up pass at the sideline. And you'll take that every single time. Cause if you do get it there, it's an explosive play to the pylon. And Jesse Bates is a phenomenal player and crazy shit happens in the NFL sometimes.

1:11:20Robert Mays: All right, before we move on, let's take one more quick break.

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1:12:42Robert Mays: All right, let's get to some of the stuff that was maybe not as nice from week seven. It is time for what the f***. What the f***? the houston texans are embarrassing us i we're sitting here as like these asshole football nerds on the internet and we're like hey man the texans are two and four but i'm telling you they're still good they were ten and a half point favorites in this game and then they lose to the giants and it this was not a and there were some moments like the penalties crushed the texans on offense they had multiple like devastating holding calls but this isn't one of those this is not fluky this is not one of those games where you're a 10 and a half point favorite and you turn the ball over four times and oh man it just wasn't your day they got soundly outplayed in a bunch of different ways by the new york giants in this game houston texans now at two and five and having burned all of the remaining goodwill that you had what the also maybe conversely new york giants in a

1:13:44Derrik Klassen: much happier tone of voice what the yes yes well we can talk about some of that stuff like the

1:13:50Robert Mays: Giants are 4-2-1, and now we're at a place where two things. I have no idea how good the Giants are. No idea. Still don't know. Still have no idea because we've seen one game with the quarterback, and this will get into some of the weirdness in terms of how they move the ball and how they attack the Texans. The Giants came into this game like 28th in overall team DVOA. I have no idea how good they are, but we're at a place now where when you win a game like this, the offense has, I think, there's a lot more overall optimism that you could have and just general excitement with whatever jj mccarthy is compared to what james winston was giving you and the rest of the division has forgotten how to play football now at four two and one i think there's at least a case that you can start building of like is this going to be like a weird 10 win giants team that wins the nfc east even if we don't know how good they are like i don't think that is a far off conversation to be

1:14:41Derrik Klassen: having right now absolutely not if you're that far ahead of the rest of the teams also i don't want to speak for y 'all and i don't i don't want to make this sound like a gotcha because i i i didn't freaking expect jj mccarthy to look overly good in this game i and i had a higher opinion of the houston texans heading into this thing than i do right now but holy shit he looked good he he played and i'm not saying he was the best quarterback in the league in week no he made

1:15:10Robert Mays: some nails throws he made some big time throws in this game as a thrower of the football there are three or four moments in this game where it's just like wow and i i think that but he could always do that but i don't so here's this here to me is the slight difference accuracy had been a concern for him at times during his career and when he was asked to make big time throws down the field in this game they were schemed up for the most part and he stared them down the whole time for the most part but he made them he made the throws like that big sail route to neighbors against man coverage where he's throwing it to the left side that's a big big time throw that one and then the deep outbreaker to malachi fields that he throws on time and with great placement like i I think that what he was being asked to do in terms of playing quarterback in this game was not overly difficult.

1:16:07Robert Mays: Like it's a lot of like this is the first read you need to throw the ball here. But when presented with the opportunities to make those plays down the field, the throws were there consistently. That's my takeaway from the overall performance.

1:16:19Derrik Klassen: I'll let you get in here first, Eric. I have a rebuttal.

1:16:23Dave Helman: I think he made like five pretty good throws in this game. He made like three of the outbreakers to Fields were pretty impressive. I want to give credit to Malachi Fields, too. I thought he got open on a lot of those. I think that he's a really good player. The throw to neighbors, not the sailor out one, the deep sailor out is the best throw that he made all day. That throw is absolutely incredible. Crazy good throw. Because that is great coverage. And that is just like spins it right by the defender. That throw was amazing. But I think what I'm saying is that he still had a couple of these plays when he was playing.

1:16:54Dave Helman: He was never really playing well in Minnesota. But there were moments where you were like, holy shit, you were reminded of how talented of a thrower he is. This was maybe the best consolidation that we've gotten of that in a single game. I still think I am not really going to change how I'm thinking about this until we see them asking him to do more things, which is completely natural. Again, it's his first start on this team. I understand that. I'm with you. That's kind of just where I'm at with it.

1:17:18Robert Mays: I don't think he was asked to do a ton in terms of playing quarterback in this game. I think what the passing game looked like is a credit to the throws he was able to make, like purely as a thrower and design. I mean, like they created a lot of one-on-one opportunities for him in this game. That first shot to neighbors on the slot fade, like that's a one-on-one opportunity provided to you by the offense. They took advantage of it. And so I'm with Derek in the sense that I want to see what it looks like when he's asked to do more. And then the other, the last one I will say, in terms of like being asked to do some real quarterback stuff while making a big time throw the corner out he hits to fields early in the third quarter he pumps to the flat to hold lane down before throwing that that to me was maybe like the most nuanced play he made over the course of the game with the deep sail route to neighbors being the best throw he made in the game that's what i think that's where i would that's how i

1:18:13Derrik Klassen: would describe it y 'all y 'all blew past me i'm not asking you to change your opinion of jj mccarthy after one game and I think that would be foolish but he was break the charts bad for Minnesota last year like he was unplayable and the moments and the flashes of arm talent that we saw were so few and far between that it wasn't even worth taking seriously and he had a moment per quarter or two moments per quarter he absolutely did two or three like holy shit throws and it's a hell of a starting point and again within the context of this giant season where you just had your heart ripped out 10 plays into the second game of the year to even have that to hold on to even if it's not long lasting i'm excited for giants fans to that they get to experience that and like jj mccarthy is gonna have his share of struggles i still feel confident about that but this was so much better than i expected his debut to be it's what derek and i talked about this in the hangover when we

1:19:13Robert Mays: went back and watched the game that Jameis Winston had last week and then watched the fourth quarter from J.J. McCarthy. There is no reason to keep playing Jameis Winston because of his inability to access a lot of the good things the offense was doing, and they were doing a lot of good things. And this, to me, is the exact thing we were talking about, where this receiving group, and neighbors specifically, and then Fields is solid, and what Isaiah likely has been, and what the offensive design looked like, there were opportunities to be had in the passing game. Jameis Winston could not access them.

1:19:43Robert Mays: A guy with J.J. McCarthy's physical talent, let's just see what happens. And I think this game is a perfect example of that. They went out and said, let's just see what happens when we give a guy some one-on-ones and some schemed up shots and he's willing to take them and could put the ball in the general direction of the receivers. You got what you got today. Like this is the reason that he should be playing because Jameis Winston's not doing this.

1:20:05Derrik Klassen: I'm intrigued to watch the Giants moving forward. And I just didn't, I didn't think I'd feel that way about them again after the Rams game. I did.

1:20:17Dave Helman: I did because I liked a lot of things they were doing. Yeah, I was worried the first game was going to be like completely DOA or like that the fourth quarter he played was fake and that his first start would be DOA. The fact that we're like off the launch point and okay, that's a good place to be.

1:20:32Derrik Klassen: Let's get to the Texans part of this.

1:20:34Robert Mays: Yeah, not to take the focus off the Texans. We talked about the offense. like the penalties just destroyed them in this game. I mean, there were like multiple, just like backbreaking first and twenties where they're behind the sticks. And so that was a big part of this for like the way the, why the offense felt the way that they did. Yet again, this team just continues to shoot itself in the foot on short yardage. Like to get a fourth and one and then have Ed Ingram jump off sides, the Stover sneak was stuffed on third and one. So that's only, that's why they got to the third, to the fourth and one.

1:21:08Robert Mays: So the offense was frustrating in the ways that you can expect the offense to be frustrating with this team. What the Giants did to them on the other side of the ball was shocking. I mean, but it's a continuation of some of the things that have happened all season. The Texans this year, after today, have allowed 29 completions of 20-plus yards. That is tied for the worst in the NFL. they are tied with the lions for the most 20 yard completions allowed this season the houston texans they allowed 47 of them all of last year it's been seven weeks they've allowed 29 completions of 20 plus yards that was shocking the other part of it and going back and re-watching the game it's one of those moments where you're seeing something specific where it's like okay when the When the Giants are in heavy personnel and the Texans are matching with base, the Giants are doing whatever they want in the run game.

1:22:05Robert Mays: And so I went to look at the numbers. In base defense this year, the Texans have allowed a league-worst 52 % rushing success rate. They've allowed 0.19 EPA per rush. In this game, the Giants, against base defense, had 25 carries for 162 yards. with a 56 % rushing success rate, they average 0.38 EPA per carry on those plays. 0.38. And it kind of does make sense because the Texans don't usually play like this. All the five-man front stuff is new because they played mostly in nickel over the last couple of years. And so it's not something where they've repped it a million times the way they have with the four-down stuff.

1:22:50Robert Mays: And when you get them in five-down fronts and you widen the edges, you're taking the best players further away from the place and so it probably shouldn't be surprising but when you see it laid out like this and when you see the Giants do it to them it still is kind of shocking to see a Texans defense pushed around like this Derek

1:23:08Dave Helman: exactly because they just could not play on their own terms like they and I know the base thing is kind of important base versus nickel and all that they were sixth overall in DVOA coming into this game in terms of run defense like for all the stuff about giving up pass plays that was like obviously you hate to see like J.J. McCarthy in a third round rookie in Malachi Fields doing that to you but that had been happening to that to them all season there's some amount of like we've seen this before this season them getting run on the way that they did I think was the big thing and I think this is where you feel not having Jalen Petrie and I think there's some amount of this year that they probably did want to do five more five-man fronts and mix things around and play in a different sort of base and I get that I still think if you have Jalen Petrie in this game you can play your nickel the way that you want he can be down there he can bang against the run game and you kind of solve some of these issues like because I thought that there were some issues too like I think them being in the different fronts that they want they're struggling right now the front to kind of do what they want I also just thought that the dbs did not tackle well in this game like at all like you had kale on the touchdown or not the touchdown but the big run that scatabo has in overtime that like effectively wins in the game Kalen Bullock is like out to lunch like I don't know what like it just takes him so long to go and get and make that angle he's obviously the free safety filling there and then there was a play earlier in the game I think the Scadaboo touchdown where Stingley has him in the hole and he just like cannot wrap him up and bring him down and I know that like that's the whole thing with Cam Scadaboo is that he's very hard to bring down and his balance is incredible but to me I think you just have to give like a little bit of a better effort there and make sure that you're getting guys down and so it just does feel like you're you're feeling a little bit that this defense like they play fast they play violent they're crazy they're small like that's the way that they've built it and you feel it sometimes in these

1:24:56Derrik Klassen: moments can i push back on that slightly they don't look violent this year not relative to like the texans that i got used to watching i think that's because they've been missing like

1:25:08Dave Helman: al shayer was obviously missing time no jaylen petrie i think he's been missing time

1:25:12Derrik Klassen: I think Lasseter is a good shout like not having Petrie is a very tangible thing because he's just

1:25:18Robert Mays: a psychopath the downstream effects in this game what Derek is talking about the run defense is real but even on some of the like Lasseter is on neighbors on the big slot fade so you're having Lasseter play in more space than he's used to playing in because when you're in nickel he's moving inside and then Lane had multiple plays where he got picked on and so by not having Petrie you're unable to defend and I honestly don't think that the Giants were in such heavy personnel groupings that I don't think they would have played nickel to a lot of the things the Giants were doing anyway, but you still don't give yourself really a chance to defend the run out of nickel, even if for moments that are on the line.

1:25:50Robert Mays: And then two, you get worse in two positions because now your nickel is worse and it is a very different type of player. And then Lane is having to play more outside. And so not having Petrie in this game, you noticed it on like three different fronts for what the impact was to the Texans defense. But guess what? Everyone's hurt. I don't want to have somebody out. The effects were real, but it's not an excuse. You should still be better than this.

1:26:14Derrik Klassen: I mean, if I told you the Giants ran for whatever their number was, wasn't it something obscene? 188 yards. 188. Al Shire and Henry Toa Toa is back now too. Even if you miss some guys, yeah, everybody's missing guys. They had the pieces that I would have assumed they'd need to not be embarrassing defending the run.

1:26:37Robert Mays: Even some of the stuff they did, Derek, it felt like they were grasping at straws a little bit, the Texans' defense in this game. There was like a 17-yard completion to Neighbors in the second quarter where they brought like a funky pressure where they dropped Jadeve and Clowney off the edge and it gave McCarthy the room to step up. And it's just like, oh, man, you guys are— We forgot who we are. Yes. Like, this feels like a team that is out of sorts. And I just—it's been a long time, I think, since we've looked and thought about the Texans' defense like that.

1:27:07Dave Helman: But I think the other small thing, too, like I feel like and this is very anecdotal and obviously subjective. It just feels like when things go wrong for the Texans, you feel like the players are a little bit more emotional. And like that's obviously like you've been able to play a certain way for two or three years and it's going a little bit wrong. But it just feels like they're a little bit more on edge when things go wrong for them, because I think that they feel like this is this was supposed to be the identity of the defense. I think they probably know how well CJ Stroud and the passing offense are playing for the most part, even if today was a little bit more up and down than usual.

1:27:40Dave Helman: And it just feels like things continue to unravel for them. Thankfully, they do get their buy this week, right? Am I making that up?

1:27:48Derrik Klassen: They do. Yeah, they do. They play the Chargers in two weeks.

1:27:52Dave Helman: Okay, so you have like one and a half buys. So they have time to find themselves and figure themselves out again.

1:27:58Derrik Klassen: They haven't earned the right to assume that they beat the Chargers.

1:28:03Dave Helman: I think the Chargers are a different thing. Two more things before we move on because we have to.

1:28:08Robert Mays: Abdul Carter is an incredible player. Had like a pressure and then drew a holding flag. And then I thought Deontay Banks was really, really, really good against Nico Collins in this game. And so getting something out of Deontay Banks, what I think we all just wrote him off for, you know, that's never going to happen. I think that's a really nice place to be if you're the Giants. And they feel like a real football team. I don't know how good they are, but they feel like a real football team. And that's exactly the bet you were making when you hired John Harbaugh. let's get to the next one here the carolina panthers get their doors blown off by the tampa bay buccaneers in this game the bucks beat the panthers by 30 and baker mayfield completed seven passes carolina panthers what the f**k i don't know what the numbers on that of how often

1:28:53Dave Helman: that has happened that's got to be the lowest number this year by a lot that's also like Like, I have to imagine that is the biggest, like, the smallest delta between yards passed and how much you won by. Like, not that you won the game at all with 64 passing yards, but that it is that close. Like, that's completely ridiculous.

1:29:10Robert Mays: To score 40 when having 64 passing yards, we probably should have looked up some of the historical numbers about it. It can't have happened very often in NFL history. Like, that's a crazy, crazy stat to have reached. There might be some, like, mid-2000s Bears games that are in that general vicinity. that it's the only types of teams that would be able to do something like that.

1:29:33Derrik Klassen: I'm digging through true media to see if I can get an answer for you. But, I mean, it makes— The Bucs rushed for 258 yards in this game. It makes sense when you go back and watch it. I mean, this game got out of whack so quickly. It did. And, like, obviously, the Panthers' defense on the opening drive of the game was regrettable, and Bucky Irving looked fantastic. He had 11 touches on the opening drive of this game. but then David Moore muffs the punt. You're down 10-0 before Bryce even has a second possession. And then when you get the ball back after the field goal puts it up 10-0, Chuba Hubbard, and I know the hold enabled him to get down into the red zone, so you can't discount it completely, but he has an explosive run that gets called back by a Tommy Trimble hold.

1:30:18Derrik Klassen: And two plays later, Kalijah Kansi is somersaulting into the end zone, and it's a three-possession game, before you could even really settle into this thing. It's not to excuse the Panthers or, you know, say this doesn't matter, but sometimes games just snowball on you before you even know what's going on. And that's absolutely what happened to the Panthers today.

1:30:39Dave Helman: I also like I know I've been the one that's like pretty critical and iffy about Bryce Young. I thought the team gave him no shot today. Like he everybody else completely griefed him like on the can see strip sack. The right guard. I think Robert Hunt was on.

1:30:54Robert Mays: He got toasted by Al-Qadim Muhammad.

1:30:56Dave Helman: toasted loses immediately like just zero shot for something to happen on that play there were a number of other times where maybe there was like a creeper and Bryce Young doesn't like what he sees he's trying to get outside of the pocket somebody immediately detaches and gets onto him it was just a lot of stuff like that um on the interception that he throws to to Coker Coker kind of falls coming out of the break and isn't able to go and like contest it it was just like stuff like that all day and I don't even think that that was like the best ball uh by him necessarily, but it was just stuff like that all day.

1:31:27Dave Helman: And then you had obviously on the other side that the Bucs defense or the Bucs offense is just able to run all over you so they can control the ball however they want. And there was even a special team slub where the Panthers are trying to kick an extra point and the Bucs run it back for two points. Like you just everything that could have happened to ruin a game. The Panthers kind of found a way to do it today.

1:31:46Derrik Klassen: I did find a stat for you in 2024 the lions beat the titans 52 to 14 the mason campbell titans halfway through a really regrettable tennessee season jared goff completed 12 of 15 passes for 85 yards and three touchdowns so that oh and according per true media those are the these are the only two such games like that going back to like the 90s to win by 30 and throw for less than 100 yards to score to score at least 43 points with at most 65 passing yards it's incredible the game plan from

1:32:25Robert Mays: the bucks on offense in this game they realized jalen phillips was not playing and they were like we are going to eject your undersized edge rushers away from the line of scrimmage 40 different times and we're going to have whatever we want in the run game. It was a very calculated and specific game plan and where they were going to try to run the ball and they dominated. I mean, it was like exactly the right way to handle it. It was like on the first drive, the left guard is kicking out. The left guard's kicking out and you get a great movement on the double team on that side and you're like, all right, well, that's just what it's going to look like for the next three quarters.

1:33:05Robert Mays: And that's exactly what it did look like. Chris Godwin was a demon as a blocker in this game. The block he had on the Bucky Irving touchdown was fantastic. And so the blocking that the Bucks did on the edges in this game combined with, and we talked about the defense coming into it, the Panthers' offense was just unsettled from the start. From the start. On the first drive, you have multiple pressures that just ruin the drive. And like Derek said, I mean, multiple different plays where Bryce Young just had absolutely no shot. The pick that Scott has is, was it Scott that had the pick in the flat?

1:33:39Dave Helman: I think that might have been Tykee Smith. But it's Tykee Smith.

1:33:42Robert Mays: That is just a perfect play. Like, that is a perfect play. It's exactly what you want when you decide that you're going to try to, like, the pressure forces him to throw that ball quicker than he wants, and Smith covers so much ground in order to make that play. Like, that's where you probably should go with the ball if you're Bryce Young. And so, just a combination of guys on the defense making plays, the offense having a really good plan, and the Panthers just completely unraveling. I mean, that's what today was.

1:34:08Derrik Klassen: I my my biggest takeaway from this whole thing and unfortunately I think the answer is not anytime soon definitely not in time to go play Green Bay on Thursday night but I'm just like when can I have my corners back when can I have this game it didn't even matter they didn't throw the ball but even like yeah but like they got out on the perimeter with some of those runs like Will Lee had a tough time dealing with some of that stuff like I think you lose this game even with those corners, but it just, it was, it was glaring to me, even on a day when the Bucs weren't passing a lot. And other than that, I'm just, I'm trying to burn the tape and forget about this one if I'm Carolina.

1:34:47Robert Mays: Well, it's going to be harder to do that because Taylor Moten also broke his leg in this game. Jesus. And so that's something you're going to have to deal with. And then the other, the other specific play I wanted to mention was that the Yaya Diaby sack in the third quarter, he just collapses Rasheed Walker back into the pocket. And that's been a problem for him several different games throughout this season where when they played the Browns, he was just struggles with power. And so those guys who are like those real power rushers, I think are going to consistently be a problem for him. And now to lose Moten and you're now you're back with Monroe Freeling and the offensive line has been really hit or miss in pass protection for the Panthers all year.

1:35:21Robert Mays: And it just seems like that might just be what you're dealing with this season.

1:35:24Derrik Klassen: Not to do preview content on the recap, but we talked about this. So you get the win against Carolina, the Buccaneers. And if they had lost this game season over mathematically, now they're two and five. They get Atlanta next week. If they beat Atlanta, they have the same record as the Falcons after the way that the season started. And, and I made this joke to you today. The first three weeks of the season, Derek, like didn't the, didn't the NFC South feel so mysterious and different? Like it was just completely different from what we'd gotten used to. And as we near the halfway point, I'm just like, ah, yeah, this feels familiar.

1:36:01Derrik Klassen: This is the NFC South. We're back home. This is the NFC South I know and love.

1:36:04Robert Mays: Let's get to our last one here. The New York Jets lost to the Miami Dolphins today. The Miami Dolphins have a win. They are no longer one of the winless teams in the NFL. 28-25, they knock off the Jets. And some of the stats in this game, we can get into them. The Dolphins today finished with a 57 % drop back success rate per next-gen, 57%. They'd cracked 40 once this season so far. And in that game against the Bengals, when they cracked a 40 % success rate throwing the ball, they finished with a negative 0.3 EPA per drop back. It was 0.59 today. 0.59 with a 57 % success rate. The New York Jets, how did you allow the Miami Dolphins to do this to you today?

1:36:49Robert Mays: What the f***?

1:36:51Dave Helman: I'm just so glad I finally watched a Miami Dolphins game. And I was like, you know what, man? I kind of see the vision for how, what the fun, like four win season was supposed to be. The offense was like, I know that the numbers look insane and like way better than anything that they've done this year. And that feels like fluky and bad jets defense. And it was for certain parts of it. I really thought that the quarterback in the passing game were just kind of like good. I thought he played well today.

1:37:15Robert Mays: What he did is a scrambler, find like extending plays, finding space in the pocket. I thought Malik was played very well today.

1:37:22Dave Helman: The first touchdown he throws, which by the way, the broadcast, I think put this up, the The touchdown when they go up 7-0, it's the first lead that they've had all season, which is insane. But there's like 11 minutes left in the first quarter. They go empty, and he feels the defensive end on his left side, like knife inside the left tackle. He scoots out to the left, rips an inbreaker to Douglas back to the other side. I thought that was impressive. They had a gun boot play where he's just like, I don't like the throw. I'm just going to run into the end zone myself. I thought that that was really impressive.

1:37:53Dave Helman: I thought overall he just the way that he was throwing around bodies in the pocket and making sure that he was finding good arm windows I thought was impressive. I thought just that they did a really good job there. And then I would say the last thing I want to shout out for their offense. The second Caleb Douglas touchdown. They catch the Jets in a corner blitz where the corner right over Douglas is blitzing. But they're booting that way. And Douglas is just running like a little five yard flat. So there's nobody in the area. He just takes it, goes and makes like a couple of guys miss, and he's just off to the races.

1:38:25Dave Helman: And so this also, too, was Douglas' first game back. He obviously played the first two weeks, and he's been hurt. So pretty resounding return for him, I would say.

1:38:33Derrik Klassen: It's not the craziest throw in the world right here. But, yeah, like to come, to turn your back to the defense, have a guy in your face, goofy little arm angle, and it's only an explosive touchdown because Caleb Douglas slipped Minka Fitzpatrick's tackle. But I thought that was a really heady play by Malik Willis. And it put him up 11 late in the game and really helped him close this thing out.

1:38:57Robert Mays: That play is doing a decent amount of the lifting for like the total yardage and the yards per attempt and things like that. But when he was pressured in this game per next gen, 7 of 9 for 138 in the touchdown. I mean, it's like even if you take that play away, he's still 6 of 7 or he's still 6 of 8 when pressured in this game. And so I thought his ability to find space, make plays with guys around him, what he did as a scrambler, very impressive. And so I don't it's not to take anything away from the Dolphins, really. But I do think it's worth sitting with what this performance looked like from the Jets with what the defense looked like.

1:39:30Robert Mays: And then I don't know if you guys saw it after the game, but Aaron Glenn talking about how maybe he should have taken some timeouts in the final two minutes when the Jets. So the Dolphins bled the clock down. They had they had the ball with two minutes left. They ran two plays to take it down to 35 seconds, and the Jets had all three timeouts. I think this is a perfect comparison point. Last week, when the Texans beat the Jags, D 'Amico Ryans had a moment where he did not go for it on fourth down, and it's like, oh, man, like, D 'Amico Ryans continues to hurt this team with, like, situational decision-making.

1:40:04Robert Mays: And then, the end of the second quarter, he calls all his timeouts, they get the ball back, they go down and score because they gave themselves an extra possession. So even a guy who it's hit or miss at best, what he is doing situationally as a head coach, and there have been plenty of frustrating moments.

1:40:20Derrik Klassen: To be, for clarity's sake, you're talking about the end of the first half in this Jets-Dolphins game. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just for anybody listening, this happened. The Dolphins had the ball for the last nine minutes of the first half.

1:40:30Robert Mays: Yes, and they were down in scoring range with two minutes left, and the Jets just let them bleed out the entire rest of the half and then score. and it's like it that can't happen like as a head coach like that that type of stuff just can't happen and then to come out afterwards like oh maybe I should have used those timeouts like I unfortunately the fears that I had about the coaching staff coming into the season like the talent is better they they sign players in free agency like the talent level is better they're not embarrassing week in and week out but I think as we get deeper and deeper into the year my fears about what this would look like for the Jets and whether this was the right group moving forward are starting to be realized.

1:41:15Derrik Klassen: I mean, Derek already mentioned this, but not only did the Dolphins take their first lead of the season today, they held the lead for 48 of 60 minutes of this game.

1:41:27Robert Mays: It was a blowout until the Jets started clawing their way back into it against the worst defense in the NFL.

1:41:33Derrik Klassen: Did you see the crowd shot when the Dolphins clenched this thing and they cut to a Jets fan with a bag on his head that said, even Miami? Yeah.

1:41:45Dave Helman: Oh, man, that stuff.

1:41:46Robert Mays: That kind of day. It's a bad situation. And, like, again, they've been competent for the most part. And if you look at it, like, the offensive numbers are competent today, but you're playing against the worst defense in the league. Like, for that offense to do what it did to you in the first half, it's unfortunate to land in a place where, like, I think we might have had the Jets pegged coming into the season for what the realistic expectations for them were going to be.

1:42:12Derrik Klassen: Which sucks, though, because Omar Cooper and Mason Taylor were really exciting in this game. But that was part of it.

1:42:20Robert Mays: That was the other part of it, is that I do think that they're going to have a reasonable amount of young, exciting players that you can build around, but that can be true while also understanding somebody else is going to be the one overseeing the development long-term of those players.

1:42:34Derrik Klassen: It sure feels that way right now. anything else about this game before we move on that was going to be it like if you want to spin

1:42:42Dave Helman: it to 2027 you can be optimistic because omar cooper looked good and both of mason taylor just like dunking on people i thought that was some of my favorite parts of this game like so if you want to be optimistic about whoever they draft in 2027 you can do that i mean and okay real quick

1:42:56Derrik Klassen: not to we don't have to do too much time on the jets but like assuming darren moogie is the guy picking the talent upcoming. I assume he will. I assume he will be as well. I mean, Michael Taff had another interception in this game. Their rookie safety. Chris Bell didn't do anything amazing, but he's the guy that was dealing with a major injury that's out there recording stats this early in the season. Caden Proctor's shown you some things. I'm completely getting my teams mixed up. Can you tell it's midnight? But it's the same idea. It is.

1:43:28Robert Mays: For both of these teams, it's like, what are we getting? what sort of flashes are we getting from the young players that's all we really need but

1:43:34Derrik Klassen: yeah i mean the so not darren moogie picking them but i'm really impressed by these dolphins youngsters youngsters and i did say uh omar cooper and mason taylor as well yeah that's that's where

1:43:45Robert Mays: the jets are like what do we see from the young players are they doing do we get exciting flashes from that group and if the answer is yes then the season is whatever it is because we know that it's going to be about what the next staff can do with this group and i think that's always where we were going to land with this team. Before we get out of here, let's talk about what made us feel romantic about football in week seven.

1:44:06Derrik Klassen: I mean, this thing was a thing of beauty.

1:44:10Robert Mays: The Minnesota Vikings are playing with the idea of what professional football is with how they're playing defense. There was a clip this week of Harrison Smith on Richard Sherman's podcast that I found notable for two different reasons. One, he looks like the winter soldier now like he's got the long hair and the beard and he just looks like sebastian stan when he becomes a good guy again and like in the marvel universe two he said something to richard sherman that i thought was so interesting and he was talking about the life cycle of what the vikings defense has been since brian flores got there in 2023 and obviously harrison smith has been front and center to all of it and i think part of the reason the defense is what it is right now is because Harrison Smith is there and is capable of just calling the defense in real time while he's on the field, which is insanity.

1:45:00But he said, when we've talked about this,

1:45:03Robert Mays: one of the things that we've mentioned is who decided that four guys was the number? Who decided that that was normal? And if you brought more than that, what you were doing was counter to the way we should be playing football. Did Walter Camp decided that in the 20s? And so now if we if we send five 80 percent of the time we're doing something weird and you can look at that as like a comment made in jest but i think in a lot of ways they probably do believe that they are doing something very very different than we've ever seen before they blitzed on 85 percent of snaps in this game 85 percent and we've talked about this a lot with the vikings you could look at that and you could just think of and frame this defense in a way of like oh it's just crazy right it's just crazy and chaotic and all over the place and it doesn't feel like that at all like it feels like everything is so well constructed and to to do that to blitz 85 percent of the time but not feel like you're really ever creating vulnerabilities for yourself on the back end and that's what the defense has felt like the entire season the dolphins are like the vikings are challenging our notions of what defensive football in the nfl can be with how they're approaching it and i think that is enough to make me feel romantic about football it's

1:46:30Dave Helman: unbelievably cool man because i think the idea of like where we landed on you rush for you do whatever with the other seven and then you blitz sometimes it's is the blitz is like a you got to think about it it's the one in four chance that they bring everybody and the Vikings have completely flipped that on their head where it's the one in four chance that they don't bring somebody that you're having to consider where you like feel like you're going to be sped up in the pocket they don't bring anybody there's seven guys in coverage and then you do nothing with the ball and then also just how often they're mixing up who's coming from where who's dropping who's dropping to where is I think they just do it in such an unbelievable way if you look at true media And obviously what the Vikings have been doing all season is crazy in this game.

1:47:12Dave Helman: So the true media is blitz data goes all the way back to 2006. They blitzed 85.2 % of the time in this game, which is the second highest mark in a game since 2006. The only guy to top that Todd Bowles in 2013. Like it's this, this like family of, of blitzers are, are just like doing completely different stuff in the NFL. And I think it's so cool because I think over the last couple of years we had seen so much credit to Vic Fangio and Mike McDonald for the rest of the league kind of coming along in their vision defensively, more of the two high stuff, some of the creepers, all that. This year, everyone is doing the Brian Flores stuff.

1:47:51Dave Helman: They're realizing we have to turn it up or we're not going to keep up with some of what they're doing. So the fact that he's like completely flipped the league on his head with a defense that like they have a lot of cool players, there's not that many guys that you could drop to any defense and be an all pro. And the fact that they're doing that with that is just it's it's unbelievable it's so well constructed and

1:48:11Robert Mays: like obviously he has a role in how it's built you know like it this is a guy who was in personnel like that that's how he started like i think it's pretty clear of even among the scouting staffs i don't know if there is a better professional like pro scout in the nfl right now than brian flores they didn't have a general manager this offseason we joked so many times about him

1:48:36Derrik Klassen: taking over the draft process this year with all the defensive picks that they made that might have been literal I didn't even think about that I brought this up before I think it's really cool at least I hope this is how people are digesting it because it's how I am but what Dallas Turner is doing this year and then when you watch Dallas Turner play it would be so easy to write it off and say well you're getting all these pressures off of tight ends and unblocked looks and how many like LT ones and RT ones are you really beating I think that kicks ass though like how is Brian Flores able to scheme this shit up where Dallas Turner is getting these looks week after week it's because teams are so freaked out and and discombobulated about everything that he's doing that the guy that's leading the charge on your rush is still able to get all these favorable looks and I I promise I don't mean that as a slight at Dallas Turner it's just really cool that week after week.

1:49:35Derrik Klassen: I have to imagine Dallas Turner is somebody that you circle in your meeting rooms on Wednesday and Thursday, and he still lines up across from tight ends and just gets these fantastic looks every week. It's really cool to watch.

1:49:49Robert Mays: They're dictating how the games are going to a degree that's hard to do on defense. And again, being able to do it while not really leveraging yourself in any specific way is unbelievably impressive. I think there's a conversation to be had about, like, what the Vikings are. Like, it's a very strange team, right? Like, the offense still isn't very good. The defense is playing in a historic rate. You know, like, I looked at the numbers. It's actually, like, their EPA per play on defense is, like, a top 15-ish number per next-gen, like, going back through the whole next-gen era. There are other memorable defenses over that stretch that are higher than them, but, I mean, they're clearly the best defense in the league by any metric you want to look at.

1:50:28Robert Mays: They've also, if you look at DVOA numbers, they played the second easiest schedule of opposing offenses in the league. And so I think I'm just kind of in a wait and see mode. Like I can acknowledge that what they're doing defensively is historic for many reasons. Like the approach is historic. The numbers are, you know, right up there with some of the best units we've seen in the last decade. They also haven't really played anybody. They played the Packers in a weird week one game. They played the Bears in a rainstorm. And then they've played four bad teams. Over the next month, here are the next four games for the Vikings.

1:51:01Robert Mays: they get the lions next sunday the bills after that the packers after that again and then the

1:51:08Derrik Klassen: niners let's see how many of those do you need do you need all four do you need one or two i don't

1:51:16Robert Mays: even think it's about wins and losses i think it's about what does the defense look like over that stretch if the if we get through that stretch and we still think this is a historically good defense then we have a conversation about whether they belong at the table but you need to be historically good on defense to be a contender if the offense is going to continue to play like this and so i need either more information about what the defense actually is against the best offenses in the league or the offense has to get better like i need one of those two things before i'm willing to include them in this conversation yeah and the offense we'll see that stretch i think is

1:51:53Dave Helman: going to be so cool because it's so many different kinds of tests like the Lions it's just all the skill players obviously Josh Allen is his own beast the Packers is a quarterback and coach that you've already seen this season who are willing to do the push the ball down the field stuff against you to make it work and I have to imagine that that staff and that quarterback are going to be well equipped to handle it the second time and then the Niners I think that's such a unique test because nobody likes to get the back out as much as the Niners and like what does that mean against the team like the Vikings where leaving yourself an empty protection all the time is probably a really bad idea I'm just there's so many interesting stuff here like I'm unbelievably excited to watch

1:52:31Robert Mays: what this unit's gonna look like well the other part of it is even when the Niners were rolling a couple years ago he gave them problems even when they've been a machine they've struggled with this defense specifically and so it's going to be very telling and I'm I'm willing to get to a place where the defense is so good that even if they're unconventional and what a contender looks like we include them in that conversation i have to see them play against a not bottom eight offense before before i do that like i don't think that's unfair they played the last they played again they played the bears in a rainstorm in week two and then they played the packers in week one week one's always wonky the packers offensive line was like non-existent in that game and so i just think we need to see a little bit more before we make final determinations on what reasonable expectations are for the Vikings.

1:53:20Robert Mays: I don't think that's unfair.

1:53:21Derrik Klassen: The Packers also got them too. Like Jordan Love flirted with 400 yards in that game before. I mean, and some crazy shit happened down the stretch, but it's not as if they shut them down. I will say, and I would not want to put the Vikings at the table tonight. I'm, I feel fine about that, but like lions and bills, like a real conversation, I think needs to be had after one or two of those games. Like I, I don't think you can leave it all the way to the 49ers game on November 22nd, especially if they're like winning some of, or all, I don't think it doesn't need to,

1:53:52Robert Mays: we don't need to wait that long. I just think that those are their next four games. I found that notable, but yeah, for sure. The conversation will happen sooner than that. In the same way that the conversation about the bears will happen before Thanksgiving, you know, and a lot of these other teams, I think that we may see some moving parts here, but I think landing where we did with the Bengals, is fine. We'll see what happens with the missing spot and then just how

1:54:14Derrik Klassen: this ultimately shakes out over the next few weeks. Vikings, Vikings, Lions, and Bears Seahawks on back-to-back days is, that's very interesting for table purposes. Interesting to you, maybe.

1:54:26Robert Mays: Alright, that's all we've got for tonight. Again, games for the hangover tomorrow. Saints, Steelers, Broncos, Cardinals, Rams, Raiders. We'll dig into all three of those for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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