Week 8 recap: Broncos stunner, WTF Bengals & another lost Ravens season

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2:01Robert Mays: That's Apollo.io. Welcome to The Athletic Football Show, brought to you by the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card. I'm Robert Mays. Week 8 had plenty of stuff for us to dig into. Kick things off with the Chiefs-Broncos game big win for the Denver Broncos. Some WTF moments from the Ravens, the Bengals and the Titans, from the Dallas Cowboys, and plenty more to dig into from the Week 8 slate with me, Derek Lassen, and Dave Hellman. Let's get to it right now.

2:40Robert Mays: It was a strange Sunday in the NFL today. That's what I'll say. A lot of weirdness, a lot of very good games that we were excited about. One of them was torpedoed about 20 seconds into the game. Multiple times I think I looked at you and I was like, this is the stupidest week of the year so far, but there's still a ton to dig into. And a ton of meaningful stuff to dig into from the slate.

3:01Derrik Klassen: Just another reminder that you can brace yourself for a crazy week. And we had like six games we were really excited about heading in. And it really delivered on that, but in just not the way that I foresaw at all. I mean, Bill's Ravens was DOA. and then you turn your attention to Titan or Titans Bengals. Like who saw that coming?

3:25Robert Mays: That's true. To do with the more entertaining games in the entire early slate, we had Cardinals, Cowboys, and Titans Bengals turning into something we never could have expected. So it was a strange Sunday, Derek, but there's a lot of stuff that I'm very excited to start diving into today.

3:39Dave Helman: I'll give Dave credit. He kind of expected the Cowboys game. He called that. He said that team, it's their trouble team for whatever reason. I am not.

3:48Derrik Klassen: I'm not new to this. I am true to this. Like, I don't know a lot, but I think I have a handle on what the Dallas Cowboys are going to do.

3:55Robert Mays: Typically, we either lead the show with Sunday Night Football or it is the first thing we hit on the hangover. We're going to do neither of those this week. The fact that that was the Sunday Night Football game, I still am not sure how that was allowed to happen, but it was just so just a heads up. We are not going to be digging into Commander's Eagles on this show. If that upsets you, I don't really know what to say. You can get your commanders covered somewhere else. No more Tanner McKee games in primetime. Unfortunately, that probably isn't going to be the last one. We are going to start the show with a huge win for the Denver Broncos over the Kansas City Chiefs.

4:30Robert Mays: The Broncos go to 6-2. The Chiefs drop another one against Denver. Cannot punch the ball in at the end of the game. Where do you want to start this conversation, Derek? What do you think is the biggest, most important takeaway from what we watched today between the Chiefs and the Broncos?

4:47Dave Helman: that's a great question I mean I know I keep saying this but this again feels like another game where these are just both two like really strong teams and I think what I want to maybe touch on a little bit the first six weeks of the Bo Nix experience were some of the worst things that we had watched this season like we there were a handful of games where he was terrible I think last week against the Arizona Cardinals they started to find something we talked about it on the hangover them getting into empty and being a little bit more aggressive I mean there were multiple times in this game where that was the case where the you know the seam that he throws to courtland sutton is out of empty and obviously it's it's not the greatest ball and sutton has to make a crazy play as it's tipped up and he falls down but he's willing to push the ball down the field in those scenarios and i think that's important they had another it wasn't empty but it was like two by two spread gun where uh they hit jalen wattle where he kind of scoots out to his right a little bit rips it up the seam to him i think on what was a 989 concept and so them getting him to be a little bit more vertical in the offense knowing that Sean Payton can scheme up the other stuff all of the boot to flat stuff in this game some of the RPO quick game stuff that they'll do the screens that they'll do we know that this offense finds ways to get five six yards in the passing game but they needed Bo Nix to make a handful of throws down the field and he's he's never going to beat Jordan Love or anything like that but you need four of those plays in a game to really make defenses think about it and earn it and get your explosives because other than And, you know, a couple of Jonah Coleman pops, which we can talk about.

6:11Dave Helman: They're not that explosive in the run game. I think him at least showing some signs of growth there again is like they need that if they're going to be an AFC title contender.

6:20Robert Mays: The other one that we did, you didn't mention it was on the drive where they go down and score the touchdown to go 1413. He throws a whole shot on the left sideline to Corwin Sutton right over Christian Fulton's head. And like you said, we don't need 10 of those a game. But can we get four or five of them a game combined with what I think is maybe my biggest takeaway? I think Jonah Coleman has a chance to kind of change the complexion of what the offense feels like. If they can have like a grinded out running back where they can sit there with that offensive line and we look up at the end of the game and it's 30 carries for 140 yards with a 50 % success rate.

6:58Robert Mays: and you combine that with their ability to manufacture some stuff offensively and him taking enough of those shots down the field with this defense, I think that's where the Broncos start to get a little bit interesting. And so Coleman coming back and being a part of this probably weren't thinking enough about what that could potentially mean for just how the offense feels. Maybe you were.

7:18Derrik Klassen: No, well, okay. First of all, thank you. Thank you.

7:20Robert Mays: As the world's biggest, as this show's biggest Jonah Coleman fan.

7:23Derrik Klassen: As a Jonah Coleman truther, I appreciate that. But I was actually going to say, how could you have, like, how could you expect Jonah Coleman to blow up and be the difference in this game? Well, he did look good.

7:34Robert Mays: I mean, he looked good at the limited time that we saw him earlier this year.

7:37Derrik Klassen: I still, in a division rivalry, and the Chiefs defense being what it's been for most of the year, I'm just, I'm not going to put it on the rookie running back to be the difference. But it's incredible that he was. And I don't think Sean Payton has it in him to just ride a running back and like make Jonah Coleman the true bell cow, but we should adjust those touches. I mean, if that's what Jonah Coleman can do with 15 touches on the day, and he looked physical, he got yards after contact, the final rushing line isn't anything to get excited about. But again, that's 11 carries against a really solid Chiefs defense.

8:15Derrik Klassen: And then obviously the play that he made where they beat the Blitz and got him down to the goal line. I mean, you just, anything you can do to find that sort of juice, Jonah Coleman definitely deserves an opportunity to take what he did here and run with it.

8:29Robert Mays: I guess when I said that stat line, that's not today. That's what I think the offense should probably be moving forward. I think they should lean on that a little bit more than they even did in this game. I think that the splits, if you look at them, are probably not as skewed toward them really establishing themselves on the ground as they probably could be with Jonah Coleman back within the offense. All of this being said, if I were a Chiefs fan right now, I would just be absolutely yanking my hair out about the way that the fourth quarter and the second half of that game went overall. We can start with what happened down at the goal line.

9:01Robert Mays: The fact that this team is incapable of gaining a yard or two yards when they need to, they need to figure this shit out. Like you either need to put in some sort of package where a tight end is getting that snap on the one yard line. Like if you don't want to sneak the quarterback, I completely understand. We're all scarred from what happened a couple of years ago and they've refused to do it since. but we're in a spot where when you need a yard, you need to be able to get a yard and this team cannot. And there are multiple short yardage situations in this game where the choices that they made ultimately came back to hurt them.

9:34Robert Mays: They kicked the field goal to go at 14, 13 when it's fourth and two. They kick a 45-yard field goal. They choose not to go for it there. There's a fourth and inches with 13, 21 in the fourth quarter where I think Andy Reid thought it might have been longer than that because it was listed at fourth and two on the broadcast. but it was really six inches for them to get a first down. They punt the ball away there. And then obviously you have second and one on the goal line in the fourth quarter, three shots. You can't get it. Some of that is because you jump off sides, but second and one on the goal line and you can't get it.

10:06Robert Mays: They had at least one, if not two shots before that penalty. Yes. Right. Yes. And they, the second and one play, I believe it was the, I was the second and one play. They, so the second and one play there, we've seen them do this all the time. Derek, we talked about when they played the Seahawks last week, they'll send worthy on all these crossers all these like shallows and twice in second or third and one situations in this game they have worthy run that cross or like that shallow return back to the flat when they're anticipating man coverage and they run a little sprint out to that side that can't be your only option like when you need a yard in the passing game because you're not going to run into those situations we're going to try to like trick them dick them xavier worthy getting back to the flat cannot be your only answer on some of these on a sprint out they did it twice in like huge situations in this game and that it leads me to like a broader point about this the chiefs offense in general i'm still worried about this like i i am still worried about the answers they have within the offense because in my opinion when the running game is not working they still just don't have enough i'm worried about their situational ball i'm not that

11:15Dave Helman: worried about their ability to like move the ball consistently but that was kind of the issue last year like they moved the ball pretty well last year they just weren't able to do some of the situational stuff well and like I think you have that used to be the best thing they did exactly well exactly exactly and so I think now what's so frustrating is like you mentioned obviously them just having when all you and this goes back to them having all receivers who are small and honestly like I know that Taequann Thornton is 6 '2 and I've talked about what he can be as an explosive threat and what he did for them down the field he's not some like jump go ball mike evans or like you know drake london player either like he doesn't really give them that in the red zone so they don't have that kelsey like kelsey boxes people out on the ground well but does not box people out in the air well that like a what the way like pete gronkowski could or anything like that especially at this point in his career and then the offensive line in theory they have this stuff to do like i don't understand why they don't just get a tight end whatever it's going to to be able to do some of that stuff because to me they have the interior to do this i will say do we want to talk about that like kingsley suamata not starting in this game like they just

12:20Robert Mays: started for i know they've done it twice this year where they're just yanking him randomly and so now you look at the left side of the of the offensive line and both of those guys showed up in big moments benito one quick on that he i believe that play that turned into a sack and then i mean on And the Caliendo lost bad on like the game deciding play. Yeah. And then on the game deciding play, and then they had a second and short at one point in the third quarter where Caliendo loses badly on that play. That's the play right before they, and then, so when they kick the field goal to go up 17, 13 Caliendo loses really bad on second and two.

12:57Robert Mays: And then on third and two, Mahomes throws a go ball in a one-on-one situation to Xavier worthy. And then they kick a field goal on fourth and two. And so the left side of the line shows up. Just some of the situational things, like in a gotta-have-it moment, I just don't know what the gotta-have-it approach is from this team. And it consistently is bothering me over the last couple weeks when we watch them.

13:19Derrik Klassen: I'm conflicted whether I agree with you or not, because it looked bad against Seattle, and it looked bad today, but it's Seattle and Denver.

13:26Robert Mays: But who are you supposed to beat if you're going to win these games?

13:28Derrik Klassen: That's what I was about to say, is like, you're going to run into units like this if you want to play. This is about beating the Dolphins. Exactly. And so I'm getting pretty concerned when you consider their explosive plays today were Pat beating blitzes to get the ball out to Emmitt Johnson, which that was those are the huge plays. Big day for building the beast today. Let's go rookie running backs all over the place. So Emmitt Johnson has to, you know, beats the blitz a couple of times. And then Travis Kelsey goes 32 yards at the end of the game because Devon Key slipped because it started raining in the fourth quarter.

14:02Derrik Klassen: and that's basically the extent of your explosive offense. Cyrus Allen had a nice 12-yard pickup on a third down that I'm not convinced actually got to the sticks and just nobody wanted to measure it. They're just like, yep, there he is. The exact opposite of the fourth and inches they didn't go for. Yeah, weird situations all over. But when that is the extent of your explosive offense, I start to get pretty concerned about beating the sorts of teams you're going to need to beat to make a playoff run.

14:30Robert Mays: Cyrus Allen gets that play. There was the third down in the third quarter where Mahomes was trying to throw the deep shot to him and he stops running, which if he had kept running on that play, there's absolutely a chance he makes a play on the ball. The sequence that to me is very quietly kind of swung the game in a way that I think is really meaningful. Kelsey, early in the season, Derek, we were talking about how Kelsey looked spry. He was like a defined positive for the passing game. The last couple of weeks, I feel like we're starting to see flashes and glimpses of the player that he's been over the last couple years when he just hasn't really been that impactful of a guy.

15:06Robert Mays: There was a throw. It was in the fourth quarter. It was on second and six. Mahomes throws a seam ball to him that he absolutely should catch. It hits him in the hands. That goes incomplete. The third down throw is short of the sticks. The Chiefs punt up 24-13. The next drive is when Knicks has all that time in the pocket, buys himself a little bit of more time throws that contested check down to adam troutman where nick bolton slips it goes for 22 yards they tack on 15 for a personal foul and then the broncos score a touchdown and they're back in the game and so that kelsey drop on second and six into that just maddening check down sequence ultimately swings the game like that that those two series are what changed the complexion of the game early in the fourth quarter you know why the chiefs

15:56Dave Helman: offense stuff is like extra killer to me one Patrick Mahomes other than maybe like I think his scrambling could be a little bit better like he mostly looks like himself physically like he's able to do a lot of the stuff that can take over games in theory which was not a given necessarily him coming off of the injury the other thing to me too was like I was not positive how much juice Andy Reid still had as like a play caller play designer all that stuff and again not that I thought that he was bad coming into the season but it was like he used to be a plus and I'm like does he still have a plus in him I thought he did some awesome stuff in this game it's just that like you're saying when they have to get into players not plays mode they don't have enough players especially at pass catcher like they just don't like you said when they gotta have it that's when you go to players not plays and they just don't other than the quarterback bailing them out they don't have that and if he's not a hundred percent as a scrambler and as an athlete well even he can't do that to the degree that you would need and so they're just left in the spot where I think the offense is going to move the ball well and I think against especially against slightly lesser defenses than Denver I mean Denver's been top five this season they still still put up more than 20 points and so it's not like they were bad today but like you guys are saying you need these small margin moments to go your way and have options in those moments and it's not even that they're just not going their way they really don't even have any good answers or things that they can try because they just don't have good enough players I think it's a poetic end that that Jonah Coleman

17:22Robert Mays: play that helps swing the game at the end is essentially the exact same idea that the emma johnson play happens on where you have the running back in the gun releases across the formation nobody picks him up peel him off against the blitz hit pops it over the top and that play goes for 50 yards almost very very similar to the emma johnson one and so the fact that both teams hit like in practice like a very similar idea to help change the game i think is very funny

17:47Dave Helman: I really quickly I love that play call too because the whole defensive meta right now is everybody weak overload blitz and that's exactly what they bait the Chiefs into doing by putting the back all by himself to the left side there's no extra help and then they sprint out the other way which that's a big part of their playbook like they love sprinting out Bo Nix and so they they get Coleman running from left to right running out uh in front of the offensive line like it's just that is that That to me is like peak Sean Payton is like baiting you into this blitz and then like having a good answer for it.

18:18Dave Helman: Like I thought that that was such an awesome situational play call.

18:21Derrik Klassen: I know we touched on it, but I just want to say again that I thought the sequence at the end, even if you take issue with some of the play calling and maybe the Chiefs could have handled it differently, was so impressive from Denver. Agreed. I get your point that maybe a play with one really one read is not ideal for that situation. But Jaquan McMillan just plastered Xavier Worthy on that whip route, like just had no chance from the beginning. And then like three different Broncos were on Pat's ass immediately. It was Q Robinson, Savion Jones, Alex Singleton, and the speed with which they closed it down.

18:59Derrik Klassen: Because throughout his career, like if I'm getting Patrick Mahomes out near the corner by the sideline and all he's got to do is extend the play or make a defender miss, I'm taking my chances with that every single time. And it like from the beginning, it looked like it had no shot, which is just not what I'm used to seeing from Patrick Mahomes. And then the Kenneth Walker stuff was so decisive that it almost looked like the Chiefs thought the play was blown dead or something. Like, they got no push. They got nothing. And so to hold Kenneth Walker back. The whole game, too. I mean, they completely erased him from this game.

19:37Derrik Klassen: Every single thing he did was slipping a tackle or pirouetting out of somebody's grasp. And, yeah, we talked about them needing to tackle better. And they weren't perfect, but they were on the screws, particularly in the last 10 minutes, where they were just getting guys on the ground and taking advantage of those opportunities. I thought it was really impressive. All right.

19:59Robert Mays: Usually we go to you have my attention after this, but because of the NFL Sunday that was and because of I think maybe the biggest story outside of the way that we led the show, we're going to move on to what the let's get into it. What the? Lamar Jackson broke his thumb one play into this goddamn game. I cannot believe that happened. We're sitting there watching it.

20:23Derrik Klassen: Let's do the behind the scenes thing real quick, because this action, this very literally, Derek, Lamar gets hurt. And, you know, there's eight games on. And so your attention might be somewhere else. And you literally just hear Mays go, oh, what the f**k? Lamar's hurt? And it happened immediately. Not only that, but for how many minutes would you guess you were ruminating on it after that? Like 20 minutes after the fact, you just hear Robert muttering like, I can't believe he got hurt. Like, I can't believe we got one play.

20:52Robert Mays: we're sitting there all week being and i know we like shit on it during the preview just because it's been such a weird season especially for the ravens and like you know the bills defense and hardy har but we ended that conversation kind of poking fun at that with man i can't wait to watch these two quarterbacks again i'm glad that lamar is back so we can actually see what the ravens are we got one play one play i cannot believe that happened and it's almost more frustrating that

21:18Dave Helman: it's like not him re-aggravating the same injury or whatever like that would have made more sense Pure fluke. Yeah, with like, if it was like, okay, this murky timeline of like, was he really supposed to come back? Was he not? Like, when was he ready? And if he had just like had a weird run, it didn't feel right, twist his ankle. Okay, like that makes perfect sense to me. It's like, it's not the world I want to live in either, but that makes perfect sense to me. Back then on the first play, he throws it and breaks his finger, which like quarterbacks aren't like throwing and hitting the helmet of defenders all that often anyway, but I don't really remember Lamar Jackson doing a whole lot of that.

21:49Dave Helman: And so the fact that the game literally starts with him doing that, And we don't get to see him again. And then this is not really as important to the Raven season necessarily, but like Tyler Huntley doesn't even get to play very long in this game before they have to go to quarterback three.

22:02Robert Mays: I really did not need to see. I don't even remember his first name. What is it? Joe? Joe. Joe Fagnano? Joe Fagnano. I was going to call him Jimmy Fagnano because that sounds more right. Jimmy Fagnano. You know what? He's Jimmy. I'm sorry, Joe. I did not need to see Jimmy Fagnano in this game. It did not need to happen.

22:19Derrik Klassen: Get Jimmy Fagnano up off the bench. Get him warm. He sounds like a fake backup quarterback in a movie.

22:24Robert Mays: I actually, you know, congratulations to Joe's family for him making the NFL for being on the roster. It's incredible. Great stuff. I did not need to see Jimmy Fagnano in this game.

22:34Derrik Klassen: If I can just stay on theme from earlier, Joe Fagnano and Skylar Bell made UConn football relevant last year, and they were both in this game. So that'll make you feel better about what we watched here. It really doesn't.

22:46Robert Mays: I'm going to tell you right now, it really doesn't. So let's start just with the Ravens aspect of this, because I do want to talk about the Bills' performance in this game. I don't want to completely skip over that. Let's start with the Baltimore Ravens. What the f***? Okay. The season now is over. I mean, for all intents and purposes, right? And so we thought with Lamar coming back, all right, the offense, and this will be a situation where I, there are teams I talk about this way. The 2015 Bengals, ironically enough, done in by a thumb injury, are a team I talk about this way where it's like, you guys don't understand how fun the 2015 Bengals were.

23:22Robert Mays: And the Andy Dalton thumb injury takes away a season that we'll just never think about again. I weirdly talk about the 2014 Browns this way, even though their aspirations were completely different. But Alex Mack breaks his leg in like week six and the season is just over. So now the 2026 Ravens who they hired Declan Doyle, the first two weeks of the season, we have just astronomical passing numbers to Zay Flowers. Lamar looks incredible. And now we just don't get to see it. It just never matters for like the entirety of the year. So now the 2026 Baltimore Ravens offense becomes just like this, like the tears and rain from Blade Runner that we'll just never, ever get to see.

24:04Robert Mays: and so that's that's like the thing I lament about what it could have been but now we have to lament like what the entire season for the Baltimore Ravens is as a franchise which is a more serious

24:16Dave Helman: and more devastating conversation I think it's massive because like this the Ravens defense like they've been so up and down the first you know eight weeks of the season but we kind of expected that it's learning a new defense is always going to be difficult even though I know he's been in the building before but like actually instituting a new play call like they've been doing like crazy coverage rotations and stuff like this was going to take a minute the hope coming into the season was like well if Declan Doyle is any good at this and the offensive line is is fine and Vega you want to looks good and all that stuff Lamar Jackson will probably look good Derek Henry all this stuff and it was the first two weeks were like even better than I thought they were going to be right out of the gate like everybody looked incredible and it was like okay if we can get some version of that for the next three months, they can hold us together and make us a 75 % win team while the defense kind of figures themselves out, tries to find their level.

25:09Dave Helman: Well, now they're going to be dealing with backup quarterbacks while I think even though the defense had some brighter moments earlier in the season, I think even they've tapered off and had some lower moments. Marlon Humphrey played pretty good the first three weeks of the season and I don't think has been very good since then. And I think that mostly holds true for a lot of the DB room. And so I think at this stage of their season, like because they're going to be dealing with at best quarterback two at this stage and probably at worst quarterback three or bring in somebody else. It's just really hard to see how this is anything other than a gone season.

25:38Derrik Klassen: I mean, this defense doesn't look good enough to carry. Absolutely. No, that part is over.

25:46Robert Mays: For me, this is more about like, what does this look like on a multi-year timeline? because in a lot of ways, when you look at the construction of the Ravens roster, they really were trying to thread and eat a little bit this season, even in year one of a new regime. Marlon Humphrey is an aging player. Roquan is in the back half of his career and is expensive. You sign Trey Hendrickson, who's on the wrong side of 30, as your main splash move in free agency to try to take the defense. This one specific element of the defense has been lacking for a while to push that into overdrive to maybe make all of the rest of it come together.

26:16Robert Mays: to all of these moves are not one-year moves necessarily, but it's not a one-year timeline necessarily, but it is a shorter timeline than you want it to be. And so now this season just evaporates into thin air. You're going into next season with a roster that has some aging pieces on it. The left tackle is included in that conversation. And now we will have to endure an entire off-season of Lamar contract talk. He has like an$85 million cap hit next year. they have to do something with that deal, whether it's restructuring it, whatever. And if he doesn't want to play for the Ravens after 2027, he doesn't have to.

26:55Robert Mays: And so what does this season and the way that it ended do to complicate those conversations and what those discussions look like with him in the offseason? I mean, it really does feel like we not only were Ravens fans and just people robbed of what could have been, I think, a really cool Ravens season with the way that the offense could have played in the flashes that we had. Now it complicates everything about what this offseason and into 2027 ultimately looks like.

27:21Derrik Klassen: It's also just I mean, it's uncharted territory on so many levels. I was thinking about this when you started talking about where this could be heading. The Ravens haven't had consecutive losing seasons since they were like a fledgling franchise in the late 90s. They haven't finished last place in their division since the 07 season that led them into drafting Joe Flacco. And so maybe I'm getting a little ahead of myself. Maybe they can write the ship. Maybe they'll trade for a quarterback. I don't know. But it's hard to feel optimistic right now. And two straight losing seasons from Baltimore, in addition to all the uncertainty you just listed about Lamar Jackson,

27:57Robert Mays: it's hard to wrap your head around. I also am thinking about the fact that I'm going to have to wear like a Raven outfit to Radio Row now at the end of all of this.

28:08Dave Helman: You're still ahead of me right now, but we're okay.

28:10Robert Mays: Can you say never more like in as many answers and interviews as possible? a costume to work for a day yeah i don't even trading for a quarterback whether it's tyson bajin or whatever they end up doing i just think that this season and this version of the ravens is over and so i eulogizing them i think it's probably the right time to do that and speaking of absolutely time to take the ravens off the table like this version of the ravens with alomar

28:34Derrik Klassen: jackson it's not even a conversation you could have you could have argued we could have done it

28:39Robert Mays: while he was out hurt the first time i think we wanted to see what they would look like with him back and now we don't get to see them and so to me it's like not even a discussion so for now Derek I'm curious your thoughts about this we were talking about before we started recording and for those people who did not notice we did put the Bears on there after the Jeffrey Simmons trade I kind of bullied you into yeah you bullied me into it I was not very excited about it I wanted

28:59Derrik Klassen: to see what they look like against the Seahawks nah but I was I was hyped Jeffrey Simmons is gonna wear orange sleeves that's fine I it's we could have easily waited a week to watch them

29:08Robert Mays: play a very good team on Monday night. Okay. The Ravens are off. I don't feel that compelled to put anyone else on right now. I think the main contenders would be a Vikings team that still cannot move the ball on offense. Justin Jefferson refused to talk to the media today after the game. Well, we'll talk about the Vikings here in a second. The Packers, which I don't know, the defense looks so much better than we could have anticipated, but the offense and the offensive line I still have a little bit of pause about that and then the Steelers which I like a lot of the things that the Steelers are doing I'm not sure I'm quite there with the Steelers offense and the Steelers passing game right now do you think that's fair do you think I'm being unfair or cruel to any of those teams that deserve to be at that spot um I don't think the Vikings I just

29:54Dave Helman: can't do it until the offense actually looks like a serious unit um the Steelers are tough because I don't know how much I believe in the overall ceiling of the offense, but I do actually love watching them play football. I just don't know if I would make the immediate argument. I just don't know if they have quite the ceiling. Green Bay is an interesting one. I think I still want to see the offensive line do it for more than two weeks, basically. I know that they're on a decent win streak, but I want to see a little bit more evidence of the offensive line holding up, even though obviously the offensive scheme and quarterback and defense are playing really, really well.

30:28Dave Helman: The other one, I know today was not their most exciting game. I still think New England is in this conversation, although they are so banged up on offense that I'm like, I kind of want to wait and see what you guys look like if you get healthy again. So everyone is kind of in this weird limbo period.

30:42Robert Mays: The Steelers play the Bengals next week. And obviously they played them earlier in the season, but I'll be curious to see what the Steelers look like against the Bengals. So I don't think we need to put anyone on there right now.

30:51Derrik Klassen: I did have a thought. So many of these conversations revolve around ceiling, and I understand why. but I was re-watching the Steelers game and I was like, what if line of scrimmage supremacy just gives them a really high floor? And like, you know, the Packers, obviously, it's a good argument. There's so much to be excited about when the Packers are clicking, but it can also look disastrous. Whereas if the lines of scrimmage in Pittsburgh continue to look the way that they have, I mean, they're not the best team in the NFL, but they're just going to be consistently really good, I think. I'm open to putting the Steelers on.

31:26Derrik Klassen: Let's see what it looks like against the Bengals. Yeah, I'm not ready to do it right now, but I'm more intrigued by the idea of the Steelers as a table team than I ever thought I would be. We'll get to them in a bit.

31:36Robert Mays: Let's talk about the Bills part of this just very quickly before we move on. I think that there was some stuff from the Bills offense that I did really like in this game. I mean, some moments early in the game. The opening drive, some of the stuff that they were doing with Khalil Shakir was really good. Allen, the play that gets them inside the 10, the little like little rap route completion to Shakir is just such a great Josh Allen play you on the broadcast that you could clearly hear it they're sliding the protection to the left he calls it at some point either Roquan creeps back or Kyle Hamilton creeps up just enough where he changes the protection in real time to slide it to the right they pick it up perfectly he buys a little bit of time against the simulated pressure with Trey Hendrickson dropping where Hendrickson gets lost in space and they find Shakir for a big chunk.

32:23Robert Mays: And so that, you'll see, I mean, that's just a very Bills-type thing, but there were plenty of those moments. Like, there was a—he had the 18-yarder he hit to Kincaid in the first quarter. That's a throw from Josh Allen that he's been doing a little bit more of this year where Josh Allen pre-snap is an incredible quarterback. The way that he is able to—the protection stuff that he does, some of the very quick decision-making, some of the things he can see before the play happens, and then very deep into the down. He's really, really good. Similar to Mahomes in a way. Like, I think those are the two areas where they do the most damage.

32:58Robert Mays: I think Allen, as an in-rhythm passer, manipulating second-level defenders and opening windows by some of the things he's doing post-snap this year has been some of the most impressive that I've ever seen from him in his career. And he hits the 18-yarder to Kincaid, where he does just a little bit of shoulder movement to create a window off 13 personnel play action that's like, all right, that's the type of stuff where we can see even more of that from him. That's him taking some of the nuance and the details to like a different level. And I think we've seen more of that from him this year.

33:30Dave Helman: I think what he's done mentally over the last, I mean, obviously his entire career, basically, you know, given what he was coming in, but I would say, especially the last three years, like I think you started to see about three years ago, the mental stuff really, really start to click into place pre-snap where he was handling all the protections, getting guys in and out of plays all that stuff the fact that now he's doing some of the Matthew Stafford like Joe Burrow is always good like mid play being able to like move people with his shoulders and eyes and stuff but Joe Burrow has always had to do that exactly because he's just not as physically impressive as a guy like Josh Allen so now you have a cyborg who is also doing the stuff that makes the lesser talented players work and it's like it's how you end up in a spot where even despite them kind of still cycling through pass catchers at times and like the defense is constantly giving up points obviously in this game that's not that big of an issue um but even despite the other imperfections you still see him i mean it's why dave took him the offense first overall in our offense draft because it's like as long as he's out there they're going to be a top five offense and top five uh quarterback if not the best in the league at most of the time funny thing is that they still just

34:32Robert Mays: did a bunch of dipshit stuff in this yes now and that was the frustrating part is that the more the dj more fumble he's stuffed on third and one from the goal line i mean and dawson Knox had a drop that should have gone for a big play on like a little crosser like still several frustrating moments from the Bills offense in this game but I think enough flashes and just enough overall quality to remind yourself that yes they are that type of unit and DJ Moore being back you you feel the difference like him being a part of the offense you feel the difference the post route

35:02Dave Helman: he caught where he makes that like crazy above the rim catch I was like okay I know he had the fumble and that's that's gonna be what it is but the fact that they have a receiver who can go and do that now it's like okay yes we need we don't even need you to do that three times a game if you can do that one time a game josh allen and the running game most weeks will give you five or six other explosives and so the fact that it's at least enough of a threat for him to do that that's just humongous for them let's get to our next one here the dallas cowboys lose to the

35:29Robert Mays: arizona cardinals 33 to 30 dallas cowboys what the what the like a really like excited

35:39Derrik Klassen: just baffled tone of voice. They led this game 14-3 at half, 17-3 midway through the third quarter, 24-10 early in the fourth quarter, and 27-17 with three minutes and 54 seconds to play. And they lost to Gardner Minshew.

36:00Dave Helman: They let Gardner Minshew make like four FU throws in this game. He really did. Obviously including the game ender, But he had a two or three before that that were like, OK, he really came out determined to win this game. Like he pins one on the back shoulder for Michael Wilson. And he had a couple of others as well. Like he played really well.

36:18Derrik Klassen: Gardner Minshew's EPA per play was 0.74, which is the best in the league for week eight. And I think the third best of the 2026 season. And the only two that were better were Brock Purdy just dicing up. Arizona was one of them. And also Miami. Like the early season Niners were the only quarterback performances better than this by EPA per play.

36:41Robert Mays: I mean, the two throws he makes, the throw he makes to Michael Wilson with a guy in his face with 48 seconds left. The when he lets that ball go is crazy. I mean, he lets that ball go like two steps before Michael Wilson is even out of his break with a guy actively about to hit him. And if that ball doesn't get complete, I'm not sure the Cardinals win the game. And then he comes back, I think maybe on the next play, there's no pressure whatsoever. He's able to step up in the pocket and the touch he puts on the little corner route to Michael Wilson over the defender against man coverage against Deron Bland is a beautiful throw.

37:21Robert Mays: And then Elijah Clark, who's only in the game because Caleb Bounds got hurt, bust the coverage on the Michael Wilson touchdown for them to tie the game. So that entire sequence is a combination of Gardner Minshew being unconscious for two plays and then the Cowboys defense continuing to destroy itself and that's the other thing we can't

37:39Dave Helman: absolve obviously the Cowboys defense and they played fairly well in the first half I think part of that too was Jacoby Brissett was not playing that well obviously that's why he ends up getting pulled but like the Algier catches like a 20-ish yard pass in the high red zone or near the high red zone because Donovan Azaraki was supposed to peel off the line to go and get him and he just like completely loses him and doesn't think about it and then Trey McBride scores a touchdown and And PJ Locke is like on the hash and he's just like completely in la-la land and doesn't go and cover Trey McBride on the corner round.

38:06Dave Helman: So it's just like you had the combination of like, which is like given what we've seen from the Cowboys defense, some of those plays, they're bad and ugly, but you could have expected them. Some of the plays that Gardner Minshew like made to go and win them the game, like that was the shocker to me.

38:20Derrik Klassen: Which I did say Gardner Minshew dismissively. And in a large sample size, it's probably not going to go very well with Gardner Minshew. Well, now we'll see. Like, when do we see Carson Beck?

38:30Robert Mays: If you're going to move on from, from, if you're benching Jacoby Brissett, I think that needs to be a conversation.

38:35Derrik Klassen: Absolutely. But Gardner Minshew is like a perfect backup quarterback though, because in a situation like this and understandably so. He doesn't give a shit. Exactly. And like Joe Fagnano, God bless him, is going to come in and say, I can't make a mistake. Jimmy. Sorry, Jimmy. You're right. Little Jimmy Fagnano. So many backup quarterbacks are just going to do everything in their power to not make a mistake to the point that it's going to cripple the offense. Gardner Minshew is going to get in there and rip the football. He doesn't give a shit.

39:03Robert Mays: He's all set. Yeah, Gardner Minshew truly has nothing left to lose.

39:08Derrik Klassen: And, hey, in this game, my God, 17 of 23. He was 6 of 6 for 66 yards under pressure today. Just, it was really fun to watch. It's not, even as somebody who didn't trust the Cowboys to win this game, I didn't see him blowing a multiple possession second half lead to Gardner Minshew.

39:27Robert Mays: We haven't mentioned the two 50-yard runs the Cowboys defense gave up because there were two of them in this game. We had a 63-yarder and a 52-yarder. The 63-yarder, P.J. Locke just completely whiffs him in the hole. Malik Hooker looks like he'd rather be anywhere else on that play, just anywhere else. The 52-yarder, Shamar James just gets so easily blocked by, God, I can never remember his name, 47. Tegan Quintaro, I think is how I would say it. I think that's close. TQ, that's what they call him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

39:57Dave Helman: Their third string tight end.

39:59Robert Mays: TQ, the ease with which he blocks Shamar James on that play. Again, Malik Hooker just out to lunch in the alley on that. And then Froholt just ejects Caleb Downs like 30 yards down the field, and it's a 52-yard gain. And then on that same drive, Derek, is when Azaraku doesn't peel off with Algier on the third and two swing. Ejects doesn't even do the Froholt block on Downs justice. He dribbled him like a basketball. He, I mean, the best, one of the more fun in space offensive linemen of the last five years is Yelta Froholt. And so for him to get that sort of spotlight moment playing against the Dallas Cowboys is very fitting considering what type of player he's been.

40:37Robert Mays: The Cowboys defense early in the year, they were banged up. A lot of the guys weren't in the lineup. Now, even if Jalen Thompson's not playing and they lose Caleb Downs and Joey Porter at some point over the course of this game, your linebackers are as healthy as they're going to be. All those guys are back. P.J. Locke was supposed to be safety depth for you. He's back. The defensive line is relatively healthy. There's no more excuses to be made about this. Like, this is a serious problem. And the offense, obviously, is much better than the defense, and the numbers, the advanced numbers on it look really good.

41:11Robert Mays: I mean, they were sixth, I think, in offensive DVO before this game started. I still just don't trust the Dallas Cowboys offense. I still don't think they know who they want to be. I think the performances are so up and down week to week. I mean, they came out and bludgeoned the Eagles on the ground and then in this game could not run the ball whatsoever. And I think the Cardinals front deserves some credit for that. Like Roy Lopez was immovable in the middle of that Cardinals defensive line. Darius Robinson had a couple of nice moments. Dante Stills had a couple of nice moments. Like some of the movement and the stunting and just the pre-snap movement from the Cardinals offensive line.

41:49Robert Mays: The Cowboys offensive line had absolutely no answers for it, but that just can't happen. When you have an offensive line that is built like this with this sort of investment, you cannot get outplayed over the course of a four quarter game by the Arizona Cardinals. And that is what happened today.

42:04Dave Helman: Especially not like just physically losing in the run game as often as they did, which like, again, this run game has its moments. They have some of their high highs. The Eagles game is really cool. Game to game, down to down, drive to drive. they are not as reliable as they wanted them as I wanted them to be. Part of that is kind of like you were mentioning. I'm not sure if they know what they want their identity to be. Like you just watch other teams around the league. Like we'll talk about the cart, uh, about the Buccaneers a little bit later. They know they want to be the best counter and power team in the NFL.

42:34Dave Helman: And they damn sure are like the Cowboys. I just feel like they're a little bit more of an amalgamation of so many different run concepts. And so if you call the right stuff in the right week and you have a good game for it game plan for it that's great but if you don't have a an identity and a thing that we can always lean on every single game you just end up in in spots like this where if they come out with a good game plan you just lose they are such a frustrating offense because I think as a pure drop back throw the 8 to 20 yard area offense in a vacuum they are very good the problem is they're not consistently good at anything else I don't think their quick game stuff is that good.

43:10Dave Helman: I don't think the screen game is that good. The run game is up and down. And even their vertical passing is some combination of George Pickens is a streaky player and Dak has never been that great of a deep passer. And so you just end up in this spot where if you're not hitting the digs and outbreakers and steep stop routes four, five, six times every half, you're just not moving the ball as consistently as you want.

43:31Robert Mays: The hope with the offense was after what you saw, if you were trying to build an optimistic case for the Dallas Cowboys, if you were maybe somebody who picked them to win the division and have them in the wins pool and was emotionally invested in the Dallas Cowboys this year, the optimism began with an offense that was firmly like top seven in every metric that you want to look at last year. I mean, George Pickens was incredible, but you had this really, really nice combination of the things that Dak used to do really well and enough of the levers that they hadn't been pulling under previous regimes that they were starting to pull with one of the two best receiver combos in the entire league.

44:05Robert Mays: you'd hope that going from year one to year two, you start building on what that looked like in year one of the staff. Everything starts to kind of come into focus a little bit more. You drill down even deeper into who you want to be. And it all crystallizes even more than it did in year one. And even some of the stuff that should allow this to happen, Jalen Guyton taking the step that you needed him to take. Tyler Guyton. Or Tyler Guyton, all of that. Tyler Guyton, like - Jalen Guyton was fun though. Tyler Guyton was supposed to be the swing point of the offense. If Tyler Guyton took the step forward that you needed him to, that was going to be the thing that pushed this thing over the edge.

44:41Robert Mays: He did that. And so far, they've drifted even further away from having an identity than they had in year one. It just makes absolutely no sense that this thing has fractured and gotten more muddled with more time that this group has spent together without any sort of like devastating injury. and with these steps in terms of player development that you probably wanted to see this season.

45:06Dave Helman: I also just like the first, the couple of weeks where they were playing the Bucks and the Packers, them specifically getting fried in all of their six-man protections. It was a lot of the same stuff and they were losing to a lot of the same stuff. And then this week, the Cardinals were throwing some interesting stuff at them, but you had like in the two minute, for example, they're kind of like pinching the line in to make sure that they're protected in the middle. but they're having the back like kind of check all of his blitzers to the right hand side and they leave the left edge completely unprotected because Tyler Guyton is squeezing inside and the back is like waiting for whatever blitz starts are coming off the right side so it's like they don't have their ability to do the math game in protection I think is not as good as other elite offenses like I watch teams like honestly like Cincinnati their offensive line loses sometimes like I think you can get the left side of their line with some twists and games I think the left tackle is just not playing particularly well right now but they don't really lose that often by allowing free runners or having like just protection botches when you watch Dallas they are just losing the scheme game more often than you would want I think the best example of that to me is Green Bay

46:12Robert Mays: Green Bay has no talents along their offensive line they have all guys that they didn't want to be there for the most part along the interior specifically and they are so buttoned up in pass protection you go back and you watch that Carolina game very rarely are there free runners happening against that offense with a makeshift offensive line. I don't know what the Cowboys' excuse is.

46:32Derrik Klassen: There can't be one. They have three first-round picks on their offensive line. They have a veteran back who's good at his job, and Dak Prescott has spent 11 years in the NFL. The read on Dak the last five years has been he's one of the last true field generals who can make everything right and get you into the right call and knows where all the pressure's always coming from. they gave up a 48 % pressure rate in this game.

46:58Robert Mays: It averaged 3.6 yards per play. And they scored 30 points, so people are like, why are you shitting on the offense? It is a maddening experience watching this team still on that side of the ball.

47:09Derrik Klassen: To that point, I mean, yeah, they did move the ball well, at least at the start of this game. I love this stat from my friend Bobby Belt, who works for 105.3 down in Dallas. Dallas' last 27 snaps of this game, they gained 34 yards. I mean like yeah like the defense is horrendous the defense also by the way has allowed more than 20 points in 24 of Brian Schottenheimer's 25 games they're currently on a streak of allowing 20 plus points in 15 straight games which is the longest streak in the NFL right now the defense is awful it is I mean we don't have to beat you over the head with that every single week but the offense completely went into a shell over the second half of this game and it needs, especially now that we know the defense didn't make the jump we wanted it to, the offense needs to be the reason why anything good happens to this team.

47:59Derrik Klassen: I'm done with that. Like, I think this is, coming into this week,

48:03Robert Mays: you could make an argument that if you wanted to try to tell yourself a story about the Cowboys, all right, it's been a really frustrating, disappointing season up to this point considering what their preseason expectations were, but it's a weird division. You beat the brakes off the Eagles last week. can you come in beat a cardinals team get back on track win a shitty nfc east and at least sort of salvage this season why do we have any reason to think that's going to happen why do we have any reason to think this isn't going to be just another like eight and nine cowboys team where we're sitting there at the end of the year wondering what the overall direction of the franchise is because that is the direction that we're heading and that is about where i'm that's kind of where i am right now and i don't really expect to be pulled out of that at any point i

48:45Derrik Klassen: I mean, the ineptitude of the Eagles and commanders is probably going to leave them in the conversation if I had to guess. But, like, I'm way more intrigued by the Giants than I was two or three weeks ago.

48:56Robert Mays: I think the Giants do good things. Yeah. I think the Giants are, like, well-coached. I like watching the Giants. And I just—the fact that I'm so far away from that with this Cowboys team after an offense that I felt that way about last year is just such a surprising place to have landed. If you told me the defense didn't work, I thought it was going to, but it didn't. But if you told me that the offense was going to take this sort of step back and just be this directionless, that would be hard for me to imagine. But that's where we are.

49:24Dave Helman: I want something to believe in with this team that is not just the physical talent of the players. Like, I can't just say over and over again, Dak Seedy, George Pickens, Tyler Smith. Like, it needs to be some kernel of something else that makes me feel better about it.

49:41Derrik Klassen: I mean, who are the most disappointing teams in the NFL this year? Obviously. So the Ravens. Chargers, Rams, Cowboys. Chargers. I even, okay, the Rams relative to expectations, absolutely. The Rams have pulled out of the nosedive and are sitting at 4-4. And I know that's not where they were supposed to be, but it doesn't feel like a problem right now. The Chargers, absolutely. Chargers, absolutely. Ravens, lost Lamar, Eagles, every single person on that roster is hurt. And then I would throw in the Texans as well. Yeah. But like the point I'm trying to make is the Cowboys didn't play today. So that's why they're not in front of mind for me.

50:15Derrik Klassen: However short you want the list to be. And even as somebody who didn't really have high hopes for the Cowboys heading into the year, they are still one of the most disappointing teams in the NFL at the halfway point of the year. No doubt. And they are on the short list for sure. On a division that is begging to be won, even by a mediocre team, they don't look up to that challenge right now.

50:34Robert Mays: Let's get to our last one here. the Cincinnati Bengals play a burn burner against the Tennessee Titans it looked like this was going to be a WTF Bengals sort of moment and maybe it is but let's just take this a little bit more broadly a 43-36 Bengals Titans shootout what the f**k okay the only thing about this do you remember

50:57Dave Helman: when these two teams played I think it was in 2024 and it was like the most turnovers and penalties that a game has ever seen. And like Tavandra's sweat, like ran back a fumble. And it was truly one of the most bizarre football games I've ever seen. I'm glad you brought this back to my brain. Thank you. That game was amazing. This game was less sloppy than that, but still equally as bizarre for different reasons. Like you didn't have as many penalties and just all that stuff. But like the fact that this was, this doesn't need to be all about this, but like this was the first time Cam Ward played a game where you were like, oh, maybe he can be good.

51:32Dave Helman: And the Bengals had to deal with that. so that part made it weird Joe Burrow for the first half was making bizarre decisions with the football over and over again throwing the interceptions and then in the second half again just like last week he looks like God himself just some of the corner round he throws to T Higgins the one that he dude the play where he steps up in the pocket and rips it like 50 yards on a line to the like post on uh to T Higgins again I was incredible play incredible throw I don't know what is getting into him in the second half of these games, but he just looks electric when, if he's settling in, if they're making good adjustments, like whatever it is, especially when he's looking for T Higgins, who we've already mentioned, but like he is just playing.

52:16Dave Helman: We already probably came into the season. Like he was already a guy where we would walk in and be like, yeah, you know, he's a top 15 receiver. He'd be a number one for so many other teams. He's even better than like, like he's even better than when we were having those conversations already. Like he's out of his mind. Offensive line, I think, was kind of up and down today but i don't know it watching what those three can do obviously joe burrow jamar chase t higgins when they're at their best especially what it's looked like the past couple of weeks it is it's it's just unbelievable dude it's really fun even on a day where joe i

52:48Derrik Klassen: mean joe threw three picks but yes they were all different flavors of bad and they were all

52:52Dave Helman: disgusting that's right like most of them were not like fluky weird it was like one he thinks he can hit a cover two shot a hole shot that's not there it's a good play by Imani Hooker to be fair there's one where like the broadcast was saying like oh it's a miscommunication with him trying to throw this late ball down the field to Jamar Chase on a scramble and it's like it's a little bit of a miscommunication Jamar Chase stops scrambling he throws that into two people like it's a bad

53:17Robert Mays: miscommunication there's no communication that's supposed to be happening it's a completely improv situation yeah I was like I don't get it why why would Jamar Chase think there's no reason for Joe Burrow to think Jamar Chase is going to a certain spot on that play. We're like five seconds into the play. That's one where there's just no reason to throw that ball. And then the third one is not a bad decision. It's just a horrible throw. He under throws it by like five yards. And so you have three like inexplicably terrible Joe Burrow plays. And then you have 15. This might be the best football player in the world plays.

53:52Robert Mays: That was the day that we got from Joe Burrow in this

53:54Derrik Klassen: offense a Amani hooker should send Joe something nice for his pro bowl nod this year which like Amani hookers had a nice season I don't mean to minimize that like he's been playing really well all year but three picks in one week will do a lot for your postseason accolades I think he's at five

54:10Robert Mays: on the year now the funniest part about two of the picks is and this is worth mentioning okay there are seasons and I hate doing this shit because it like it's the Kyle Hamilton quote where it's actually not true most of the time. There are seasons where if Joe Burrow throws three interceptions in a game, there's no shot.

54:28Derrik Klassen: There's no shot. It was infuriating the way the Bengals kept doing dumb shit because for a minute, and they played a role, don't get me wrong, but for a minute it looked like the theme of the day was going to be the Bengals' defense rallied to bail the Bengals' offense out of doing dumb shit. Yeah, like getting the strip sack one play after one of the interceptions. Which is a horrible sack by Cam Worg.

54:50Robert Mays: It's him taking that. That's a horrible play, but he took two really bad sacks. The one he took in the fourth quarter when they were potentially driving to kick a field goal. That one's worse. That's a game swinging play. Do we have video of Robert shrieking at that, by the way? It was just like one of those plays that can't happen. I mean, if he does not take that sack, there's absolutely a shot that the Titans are able to kick a field goal there and win the game. But I do. I don't want to focus on that too much because I do think Cam Ward had one of his best games as a pro. and there were several like really really impressive plays but the sack he takes in the fourth quarter is awful the strip sack is terrible but the strip sack comes one play one drive after the interception so they get bailed out there and then the third interception that he throws the safety happens immediately yep two plays later night takes grass and they get the safety so two of the interceptions don't end up mattering because of what the Bengals defense does so it was just a very strange game for that reason the Bengals defense had several really nice moments to help minimize the damage but overall I walk away from this game very scared about what the middle of the Bengals pass defense looks like because the Titans were hitting most of what they wanted in this game and they left plays on the field the best throw the cam word made was the backside throw we had to Calvin Ridley on the first drive that Calvin Ridley drops

56:11Dave Helman: don't remind me that that one hurt but like I'm so glad you mentioned the over the middle of stuff because like what I wanted to talk about with the Titans offense by the way I'll say quickly best game Brian Dable has called as a as a oh yeah absolutely like I thought he was doing some really cool shit in this game um but what I wanted to say was I think an issue that Cam Ward has had for a lot of his career is like he's kind of willing to stand in there and do the play action under center stuff and be aggressive and stuff I just don't think he's been comfortable with those throws and like actually making them and the timing of it all that he was four of six uh on seven dropbacks for 67 yards in this game on play action under center stuff like they were doing a good job of getting especially gunner helm open on those crossers and just a lot of that stuff so the fact that he was willing to sit there and make some of those throws and then i mean on the bengal side the fact that it didn't seem like they had an answer for defending that pretty much all day i mean jordan battle made one nice play on like a crosser and other than that it just felt like the middle of the field was open for business.

57:08Robert Mays: It's going to be. That's been a problem since the season started. Like that is something that if you are worried about what the Bengals ceiling looks like, their inability to defend that area. And even something like the, there were a couple different moments in this game where Jordan Battle was bringing back the flavor we saw from the 2025 Bengals defense when it came to tackling in space. And some of the perimeter runs are that really crept up and hurt them last year. The Titans hit a big one in this game. and so that like the safety's tackling in the alley the linebackers having to cover a lot of ground anything you can do to minimize the front I would still be a little bit worried about the overall state of the Bengals defense I think you saw that a bunch of different times in this game

57:47Derrik Klassen: I mean the degree to which the Tennessee Titans looked better than competent in this game yeah is it was striking it was striking to see the Titans string together scoring drives like with regularity. I mean, like they lost and we already talked about Cam Ward, but just in general, nice to see their young guys doing stuff like Gunnar Helm had a nice day. DK and AO Manor both made plays for them. I think for a, there, there hasn't been a lot of optimism to cling to for the Titans and you lose Jeffrey Simmons this week, by the way, who was like the best thing you've had going since Derek Henry left town.

58:27Derrik Klassen: And to play a game where young pieces of your roster gave you something to feel any semblance of optimism about was it was a refreshing change for Tennessee but I get why that would scare you as a Bengals fan because it has not looked like that for the vast majority of the year for Tennessee no and again some of the throws he's

58:46Robert Mays: just ripping over the middle of the field I mean he had a backside throw to DK with like 10 minutes left in the second quarter it was like holy shit I mean there there were four or five of those that really stuck out in this game but ultimately the Bengals offense just has too much firepower and the stretch that I was just sitting there kind of with my jaw on the floor is the drive for them to make it 29-28. Burrow, Gasicki's on a corner route and Burrow like pulls him away from the safety on throwing like a back shoulder, just like is the only place that he can put it for 18 yards. On third and 10 on that drive, after they take a sack, I believe, to make it like second and 20, they get back to third and 10.

59:28Robert Mays: What Jamar Chase does on a little crosser return to Cordell Flott on third and 10 is just not safe for work. Like it should come with an actual warning label before you watch that play. And then they throw the fake orbit motion bubble screen to Isiki for a touchdown. So that's just like a three or four play sequence or just succession of things that happen on one drive. It's just like, holy shit. But then the touchdown to tie it to T. Higgins, it doesn't look that impressive when you actually watch it. when they were down 36-29, it doesn't actually look that impressive. But when you go back and you watch the play, it's three steps from Burrow from the gun, and he no-hitches the throw blind back to T.

1:00:10Robert Mays: Higgins on the post. It is everything about the timing, the placement, the way he's using his eyes on that play. Like, it's not, when you, for the most part, if you're going to throw a single high, like no-look throw, doing it outside the numbers after you're holding the safety, Like there's no way he gets over there to throw a post with that spacing. And the only way that ball is complete is if he doesn't take the hitch upon hitting his back foot. And so the accuracy, the timing, everything about that play, it's the only way it can unfold for that to be a touchdown. And it's just little things like that.

1:00:46Robert Mays: It's there's not it's not an overtly great play by the quarterback, but everything about the way that he approaches that play is the reason that it works.

1:00:54Dave Helman: yeah this bear with me for a moment while I try to make this comparison the timing that we always saw especially in 2023 with the Miami Dolphins offense where Tua was playing that way it has that timing to it except way more throws are accessible the quarterback is actually seeing and reading stuff and it's not like hey buddy just throw it here the fact that they are playing on that level of timing but so much more is accessible to them because Burrow can play with that timing not just on some of those over the middle like the post drafts that they're throwing in this game Like that play, his play in the red zone, particularly this year, I think has been pretty outstanding.

1:01:29Dave Helman: Like when the ball comes out, he's had a couple of silly sacks, but like when the ball gets out, he's been incredible in the red zone. But like the corner out, I mentioned to T Higgins, like the one that you mentioned to Gusecki, like he is playing so fast, especially in the second half. Like when he's really confident in the downfield stuff, like the ball's just coming out with a timing that is really, really impressive for any quarterback. but especially with someone where, one, you know these guys are going to be open almost all the time. And if they're not, they're the best in the league at coming back to the ball.

1:01:57Dave Helman: And Joe Burrow, when he's really on it, is as accurate as just about anybody in the league. And so it's just an unbelievably dangerous combo when they are actually operating at this level.

1:02:06Robert Mays: All right, before we move on, let's take a quick break. The NBA season is here. When you turn on the games, turn on The Athletic Live on YouTube. Become part of the show in the interactive chat along with host Zach Harper, Kofi Oboa, and the Athletic Slam Dunk NBA staff. The Athletic Live is presented by Google Gemini. Check it out now and subscribe on YouTube. Football season has arrived, and with the U.S. Bank Smartly Visa Signature Card, you earn an unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase, including at the stadium or at home, watching on a brand new TV. Score big with unlimited 2 % cash back on every purchase.

1:02:39Robert Mays: Visit usbank.com slash smartlycard to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is U.S. Bank National Association, Pursue it to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions may apply.

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1:04:54Derrik Klassen: Thank you. Get wise. Download the Wise app today. T's and C's apply.

1:05:09Robert Mays: All right, let's get to some of the other performances that really stood out from week eight. It is time for You Have My Attention. Gentlemen, now you have my attention. The Detroit Lions beat the Minnesota Vikings 19-15 in an ugly one, took some really fun stuff from the Lions offense in the second half of this game to kind of find a little bit of daylight against the Vikings. The Vikings defense has obviously been incredible all season. They gave the Lions fits for a good majority of this one. The Lions had to be incredibly creative in some of the ways that they found openings. Like, I thought that the problem solving from the Lions offense and their ability to ultimately pull away with this one and sneak away with this one was unbelievably impressive.

1:05:55Robert Mays: Detroit Lions, you guys have our attention.

1:05:59Derrik Klassen: Also, before we get into the nerdy, fun aspect of this, the Jack Campbell situation has our attention. And hopefully, you know, he's staying in a hospital overnight on Sunday after just a really, I mean, like the second time they went to commercial break without a resolution to that situation, you kind of realized, oh, this is different. and I mean hopefully that has a happy ending because it looked incredibly scary and I mean the fact that he's staying in the hospital without like a clear update definitely gives you pause and just a tough day for the Lions in general because they lost Campbell Brian Branch and DJ Wanham took each other out over the course of this game I think Cade Mays left for a little while as well he got he had an ankle injury and then Scruggs had to come in and play for a good chunk of this So, I mean, this was a, I mean, we thought it was going to be a hard-fought physical game, and unfortunately, it lived up to the billing in that regard.

1:06:53Robert Mays: The Jack Campbell situation, I think, we should sit with for a second. At this point, it is 1130 Central. We have no update on his situation. I'm assuming we won't have one for a little while. The Lions put out a statement. They said that he's resting, but there was really no specific update about where things were with him. And so that's where all of that sits. Even in the moment, when you watch the aftermath of the injury, and obviously Aiden Hutchinson's reaction to it is the most visceral part where you see all of his teammates just incredibly emotional and is just such a stark reminder of the violence of this game, the reality of playing this game, the fact that these are all people that deeply care about one another and even having to come back and play immediately after you see somebody.

1:07:42Robert Mays: that you care about like that carted off in that way. I can't imagine how difficult that would be. And then the fact that Aiden Hutchinson is the one who makes the play on that fourth and five in a huge moment in the game, it almost gives me chills to think about that. Just like what you have to be feeling in that moment and the mental toughness to overcome that and work through it in order to keep playing the game is unbelievably difficult. And so, I mean, of all the moments, all the images, from this game. I think obviously the Jack Campbell thing lingers the longest, but watching Aiden Hutchinson go through that and then make the play that he did after that because there's still a game to be played, that is the image of this game that I think I will leave with.

1:08:24Derrik Klassen: Phenomenal play by DJ Reed on the back end of that as well. I mean, to break out the catch.

1:08:28Robert Mays: His collar gets that throw off on that fourth and five. He gets that ball off, and it's a decent ball.

1:08:33Dave Helman: Yeah, it was. Like, that's the thing. He gave his guy a chance, but to me it was seeing the reactions from the players. Like you said, it's a violent game. These guys, they see injuries all the time. They see guys get carted off all the time, even for head and neck injuries. And the fact that it was, these guys had this reaction, it was, they knew, I think, the severity of it. And you very rarely get moments like that. So the fact that, I don't know, it was just a really tough moment. And so obviously, hopefully he's okay. It's upsetting that we don't have an update yet, but obviously wishing all the best to him.

1:09:07Robert Mays: Let's dig into some of the specifics from the game. itself i thought that the problem solving we saw from the detroit lions over the second half of this game offensively was just incredibly cool like the two drives that they had the two touchdown drives that they had in the second half the one where they go up 12-7 you just start to see them figuring out how they can kind of poke and prod at the vikings and they do it's a golf they do a great job out of like they have a little under center play action with a sniffer where right It picks up a blitzer. It lets Goff get to the check down to Laporta.

1:09:43Robert Mays: They do a little split tight end offset. That was the first time they did it was on that drive. The first time I noticed that they did. They had done it in the first half. The first time I noticed it was in the second half. And they did this a bunch of different times in the game where they have Gibbs offset to one side and they have both tight ends lined up in front of him. And so what this allows you to do, and Derek, I'm curious what your thoughts about this are, but my thinking is all right what this allows us to do and they did it it unfolded in a couple different ways over the course of the game but multiple different times it was either it was from one guard like the guard to that side all the way to the other tackle you can wash down and then the tight ends are kind of sitting there able to pick off whatever guys are coming or aren't coming and so to me it feels like a very natural response to the things the vikings do so the Vikings are doing all of this seven, seven up stuff where they're reading who, like they're reading who the guard is going to in pass protection or where the back is going.

1:10:43Robert Mays: And so the Lions are responding with a run concept where the tight ends are able to read whoever is coming into their field of vision while the offensive line doesn't really have to worry about whatever the movement looks like. And so it's just such a cool and fitting response to the way that the Vikings play and it's something that they were able to tap into like five or six times over the course of the second half of that game for really important plays I felt like I had never really

1:11:11Dave Helman: seen a team try to pass protect the way that the Lions were trying to pass protect in this game where they are like really just trying to do some of the stuff that like what you're saying where they're just getting because usually when guys are like pass protecting and looking for for stuff like you just have like a sniffer right up next to the guard or you have a tight end and he's just going to pick off like if the sea gap player's coming or if a player's coming off the edge but they really were like it was almost like we okay so on defense we talk about like when when people are adding on as a blitzer right there like green dogging where it's like okay if the back stays in for protection i chase him it was almost like guys were just chasing certain players based on what the protection was like i want to go back and watch it because i don't think i could fully do it justice with the broadcast i think on the pure numbers game though i think that was the most interesting part to me they were playing seven man protections all of the time in this game and they really did the thing that you have to do against this defense which is we're going to sit here in seven man protections we're going to try to block it up we're going to throw 20 yards down the field and we're going to beat you and they did some other really good stuff underneath as well to get good options and threw some good screens and all that but they were willing to hang in there and make the tough throws that you have to do against this defense because really the only time that we've seen teams have their moments against this defense where I think some of the downfield shots that the Lions were taking in this game and then what the Packers did for the first three quarters in week one before their makeshift offensive line kind of did them in.

1:12:33Derrik Klassen: I love it when a team takes the guesswork out of it on my part about whether or not they're trying something new. So weeks one through seven of this season, the Lions have averaged 18 snaps of 12 personnel and three snaps of 13 personnel per game. Today, they ran 33 snaps of 12 and 18 snaps of 13. they ran 14 snaps of 11 personnel that's three wide receivers one tight end and one back if you're not aware 14 snaps of 11 personnel they have never run that few snaps of 11 personnel in the dan campbell era and it's only the third time in dan campbell's tenure that they've even run less than 20 snaps of 11 so they clearly got the memo about how to take advantage of what the Vikings like to do.

1:13:17Derrik Klassen: And the way they did it in the run game was so, so cool.

1:13:22Robert Mays: So that's what I was talking about was those offset eye looks with the two tight ends where the tight ends are almost like they're reading who's coming and who's not on like some of the run pressures, which, and so like it was, it was such a cool way to approach it. And they did it a bunch of different times. I've never seen a team do that before.

1:13:39Derrik Klassen: The wishbone stuff where they had the two tight looks really cool but the the 30 yard Gibbs touchdown is just a beautiful play where they did the offset I think I think they had Brock Wright in the backfield yeah and uh and then Laporta motions across and Laporta turns into the lead blocker Wright takes out uh Tyrion Ingram Dawkins at the line and Laporta gets ahead of Gibbs and just makes a mess of everything in the middle of the field and lets Gibbs do the rest. It is such a cool way to let the tight ends kind of, you know, dictate who gets blocked and where it goes. I mean, they must have done it six times in this game, which they're rushing success rate in this game with multiple tight ends on the field was 61%.

1:14:24Derrik Klassen: And in the second half in particular, they just got on a roll where, I mean, you know, Sione Vaki had that sequence in the fourth quarter where he was just ripping off explosive runs. they really they they got on a roll where they I mean the Vikings just wanted nothing to do with

1:14:42Robert Mays: it after a certain point and even though that the drive to go up 1915 is the one you're talking about and like the nine yard run by Gibbs right before the touchdown it's not those two tight end the two the two tight ends aren't there but it's a very similar idea with like a windback where you're kind of accomplishing the same thing like their plan of we're just going to wash one side and then we're gonna have the two tight ends coming back the other way just worked over and over and over again in the second half and then we haven't even mentioned the coolest play they ran on that third down they throw like a crazy rpo throwback to aman rossst brown in the backfield

1:15:18Dave Helman: which was insane that i think there's obviously some element of like i guess he gets more of a running start than if you threw a guy just like a smoke screen right where he's like a little bit dead on his feet I think what I was wondering with that how many times have we seen teams try to throw perimeter screens on the Vikings and Andrew Van Ginkle or Dallas Turner or it's a good I think it would have been on this place getting a hand on the ball well if you're throwing it three yards deeper unless he's go go gadget he's not going to get a hand on that ball so that to me is what I think that they were trying to like prevent that from happening so again the Vikings

1:15:51Robert Mays: the Lions offense and the talent we know about the ingenuity that we saw from them in this game combined with guys just making plays. I mean, the driver, they go up 19-15, the first run by Gibbs, there's nothing fancy about that. It's outside zone to the right and he winds it all the way back to the left for a huge chunk gain. And then the one, I mean, the nine yard play that he had right before the touchdown on that drive, the vision that he shows on that play to find like a sliver to make that play happen. I mean, it's again, just a combination of design, understanding how you have to just be really creative against this sort of defense and then the players being able to take over in those moments because they're really good.

1:16:33Robert Mays: And that is the formula for what the Lions did on offense in this game today. The Vikings offense, slightly different story. We talked about this in the preview, Derek, and Dave and I were joking about it today. The three throws we mentioned that Kyler has been able to hit this season where you have the seam ball and twice today, He did it on the exact same kind of action where it was a little nod by Hawkinson before the seam. He completes that twice. Then they had the one goal ball after DJ Reed got hurt. Like those were the plays that the Vikings passing game made in this game.

1:17:04Derrik Klassen: It looked exactly like we hypothesized it might. And that's not a compliment.

1:17:09Dave Helman: Yeah, it was bad. I will say I actually think in a vacuum, the way that Kyler played is like winnable football for this team. The problem is the run game was as bad as it's ever been. And I thought Jordan Addison played a really bad football game for the most part. The interception is not really on him. He gets bullied a little bit. That's not a good throw from Kyler. Otherwise, I thought like Kyler did not play well, but did not play like drag the team down level of football. I thought that this was a performance where, I mean, they had 46 running back rushing yards in this game, which was their lowest of the season for a run game that we already think stinks.

1:17:46Dave Helman: And so I thought that this offense had, even if this was not like a particularly good game from Kyler I thought the offense had like a number of other issues outside of him as well I mean it

1:17:54Derrik Klassen: definitely did and they had a couple big runs called back by flags if I remember correctly that was brutal but like I mean I hear you and this is I don't lay this game completely at Kyler's feet but I did not think he played well man they had four explosives in this game he he was willing to throw the two seam balls to Hawkinson he hits Addison deep when DJ Reed leaves the game on like like a no-risk go ball that's either going to be incomplete or an explosive gain. And that was really about it. I think he had a scramble otherwise. And other than that, and the Jefferson touchdown is just a disgusting play that one of the best receivers in football can make for you, where he tips it to himself and catches it on the way down.

1:18:41Derrik Klassen: There was nowhere near enough consistency with this passing game. And the one that stuck out to me, I think it was actually after the first seam ball to Hawkinson, he missed a touchdown to Justin Jefferson. Like he threw high on a dig at the front of the end zone that it would have been a really nice play by Justin Jefferson. But guess what? He's Justin Jefferson. Give him a chance to make that play.

1:19:04Robert Mays: They cannot complete in-breaking routes within the offense. Yes. Like they just aren't accessible to them. And so that one was a good example. And then when they were down 7-6 after Bates doinks that field goal, to start the next drive. They're in the pistol. They're running play action. They're trying to throw a drift route to Jefferson over the middle of the field. And he just turns it down and takes a heinous sack. And so even if you see what things he can do in the passing game, and I understand what you're saying, Derek, where it's like he played well enough to give them a chance to win. That's objectively true.

1:19:37Robert Mays: I think how limited the passing game is because of the areas of the field that he either cannot or will not access, it's just almost impossible to have a passing offense that looks like this and have any sort

1:19:50Dave Helman: of shot in the long term I kind of agree with that but like we knew that going in that the offense would have those limitations and I think that we thought that there would be other parts of it that would help lift it up particularly the offensive line in the run game and I just don't think that any of that part of the consistency in the offense is there I what I will say Kyler even though I know he had the scramble in this game and he's had like he scrambled okay against the Saints, I think in and around the pocket, he is not nearly as explosive as he used to be. Because like in this game, this was one of those games, kind of like you're talking about taking that sack.

1:20:21Dave Helman: There were four or five moments in this game where I'm like, why are you holding the ball as long as you are? But like half of season MVP Kyler in 2021 or whatever, like he would do that too. The problem is he could get out of every sack that he needed to and go make a throw down the field. Now he can like maybe get away from one guy and then he's not even making as many throws down the field. I do think that like his the explosive passing with the within the rhythm of the offense, I think, can be functional. You're just not getting enough of him, I think, as an athlete, which to me is where I'm worried about the ceiling.

1:20:52Dave Helman: And then the floor of the offense from everybody else, I think, is is putting them in a really difficult position.

1:20:58Robert Mays: I'll also say that the accuracy on some down the field outside the numbers throws has been wanting

1:21:04Dave Helman: and that's not and outbreakers are high every time that's not workable if you're not going to

1:21:10Robert Mays: be able to do the things that we're talking about you have to be able to at least put those throws where you want to in order for this thing to work and he's not even doing that right now that's like the one area that's it's different the limitations and the issues are different than the ones you might have anticipated coming into the year and when you combine it with everything else that's

1:21:30Dave Helman: concerning to me yeah that is the accuracy on the deep stop routes I mean Dave and I we were talking about him on the on the preview show coming in like he had two or three last week that were brutal and then two or three outbreakers in this game it's that 15 to 20 yard like outside the numbers area just is not as accessible as I think for him as it used to be but again like I don't think that he played well in this game but I think that there were stretches earlier in the year where he was truly tanking the team's ability to move the football I don't think he alone is like in that realm of quarterback play now.

1:22:02Dave Helman: I think he's just not additive in any way. And obviously he's restrictive in some of the things that he can allow you to do. But like the run game continues to be, I think to me, the biggest issue. Like obviously I mentioned their totals in this game, only 46 rushing yards from running backs. There was a play, and this is where I think you see a lot of the frustrations, or at least me personally. I think it was the last play of the third quarter. They're running like a toss to the left. Juwan Jennings has to pin down the defensive end. I think it's Derek Moore. and he does such a poor job doing it that Moore just springs into the backfield it forces the running back to take like a way wider angle to get to the perimeter behind a cavalry that like has room outside the numbers but because he has to take the wider angle like two or three Lions players are able to go take that angle and hunt him back because he's not fast enough to do it on his own and then if he has to obviously bend that angle he's getting caught and it's just stuff like that all the time and then like Dave mentioned earlier the one or two pop runs they hit they get called back for a penalty or something i'd be a i i would be on the phone

1:23:00Derrik Klassen: with indianapolis if i were the vikings i'll just be honest for which about anthony richardson about jonathan taylor oh gee i was like oh i was like what are you talking about it's 11 47 i was like

1:23:10Dave Helman: i was like what okay see that i love that i would do yes that i thought this was sorry i was distracted

1:23:17Robert Mays: i was you went straight to a quarterback trade because i in you here's here's my mind at 11 47 p.m. You say that I was like, Daniel Jones is too expensive. They can't afford Daniel Jones. Do you mean Anthony Richardson? Like that's where my mind. That makes way more sense player on their

1:23:30Derrik Klassen: team. I mean, I think it's a good point, Derek, that, yeah, this isn't all Kyler's fault. And Kyler did give them a chance to win this game. And the running game has it has not been anywhere near what we got excited about in July and August. But this is this is what you're working with. So unless they were willing to swing a trade for a Jonathan Taylor then you're stuck needing Kyler Murray to be much much better than this to get this team where it wants to go and so do something bold like get a great running back or I just feel like we're going to be watching this more often than not for the rest of the year and it's probably going to be really frustrating that's fair though

1:24:10Dave Helman: because like again I'm talking about like the theoretical lecture the offense should have been better in all these different ways but you're like you're saying the reality of the situation unless they go and trade for a Jonathan Taylor is like, these are the guys they got. And realistically, like, even if I think Kyler can be a little bit better in slightly better circumstances, those circumstances are probably not changing. And he just doesn't have the same, like, take over a game ability that he used to, mostly for what I was mentioning earlier with, like, he's just not the same athlete that he used to be four or five years ago before some of the injuries.

1:24:39Robert Mays: All right, let's get to our next one here. The Tampa Bay Buccaneers beat the Atlanta Falcons 16-0 in one of the weirdest football games we've all ever seen. A couple stats to throw out just to put some context on this thing. Baker Mayfield and Michael Penix had a combined pass rating of 51.6 today. That is the lowest combined total between two starting quarterbacks in a game since November 29th of 2020, which was the Taysom Hill-Kendall Hinton game, according to QBGami on Twitter. It's an incredible stat. Derek found this one. The last time a team picked off four passes while attempting three or fewer passes of their own was before World War II.

1:25:18Dave Helman: this was when i was looking this up i was like that can't be correct because at first i think i did it like since the merger and literally nothing came up and i was like okay your filter i have to yeah i was like i have to check like i have to click other boxes and make sure that i'm checking everything here and i let i just let it go for all of nfl history and it's four games from

1:25:40Derrik Klassen: 1937 unbelievable the other one that everybody else was sharing after the game is that the bucks are the first NFL team since 1974 to win a game without completing a pass.

1:25:50Robert Mays: Which, okay, so... Pure. This is what the game is supposed to be.

1:25:54Derrik Klassen: That was a 1974 Bills win over the Jets in which O.J. Simpson ran for 117 yards. But my favorite part of it is Joe Namath on the losing team. So the Bills did not complete a pass. Joe Namath went 2 of 18 for 33 yards with three interceptions in that game. So it's the same game. Yeah.

1:26:13Robert Mays: I mean, it's the exact same game. Michael Panix was 8 of 24 in this game. The fact that the Bucs were able to do this speaks to how we've been talking about the Bucs and their running game specifically. Like, the run game is so good. It is so, so good. When you, right now, we'll talk about the other team involved in this in a second. Watching the Steelers and the Bucs run the football right now is a blast because it's design, it's the backs. it's actually very similar it feels very similar to me because the backs like jaylen warren and bucky irving i think in terms of like some of just the explosiveness side to side and like the ability to like the cut in space and like some of this the just the space that they're finding on some of these plays combined with the fact that everybody is involved in the run game looking like it does the offensive line playing extremely well it gives me similar vibes but derrick the fact that the bucks are able to approach a game this way where they can just decide we are not going to throw the football and that is going to be enough for us to win speaks to the quality of

1:27:16Dave Helman: their running game and what it looks like right now and they just do so many things well like I love again that it is about identity like they are we talked about it coming into the week they are the biggest like counter and power team in the NFL and in this week it was a lot of counter like I mean they did it obviously when you run the ball 60 times or whatever like you're gonna hit a lot of them but the one that sticks out in my mind and it wasn't even their biggest play but it just like Like this was the attitude of it was second. It was the second quarter with about 710 to go. They motion one of the receivers from left to right.

1:27:47Dave Helman: So it looks like it might be like a little bit of split zone. And then from the right hand side, they take the tight end, the guard from that side, pull him the other way. And the way that one Payne Durham, who's the tight end, who's pulling the way that he takes on his player in the hole is unbelievable. And then Tristan worse, just washing down the end to that side to open it up. I was like, they are just doing this to people every single time they call a run play. And so just the fact that you're seeing them understand how to attack certain teams, the offensive line is playing at an unbelievable level.

1:28:19Dave Helman: All of the auxiliary blockers, I think, are playing at a really high level. And you saw it in this game, like the tight ends are really good. And then like you mentioned, man, I've talked about Bucky Irving all season. I think he's having like, he looks like he did as a rookie again, where he's just explosive. The vision's good. The footwork's quick. Like Kenny Gainwell had his best game as a buck. Like I just, they were unbelievable for all of this game. And so the fact that I thought they would run the ball pretty well in this game, I did not think that they would run for 324. I'll say that.

1:28:47Robert Mays: The play that we're showing right now, that 20 yard that Derek is talking about, the job that Payne Durham does, picking off a guy in space on that play is unbelievable. And then the other, that 24 yarder on their first drive to set up the field goal, Payne Durham just has an incredible reach block on that play. and so does Cody Mock that allows both Barton and Gadecki to climb up to the second level. And then on the 46-yarder to Bucky, Bauer Sharp does an incredible job on that play, picking a guy off as a puller. And then Mock is another incredible reach on that play. And then the vision by Bucky Irving, both in the backfield on that 46-yarder and then again at the second level.

1:29:25Robert Mays: It's all of it. Like Derek said, it's the back playing extremely well. it's all the ancillary guys and then the offensive line just moving people it's unbelievably well

1:29:35Derrik Klassen: done todd bowles might have been the happiest guy in the nfl during the course of this weekend just like he had an excuse to not throw the ball and just defensive coach's dream ran the shit out of the football and just choked out michael penix over the course of this game i did we say i mean i know if if you're listening to the show i assume you saw it but like this game was played in a hurricane of course like oh yeah conditions just want to make sure for anybody that that's not caught up the conditions in this game were absolutely stupid i think that goes without

1:30:06Robert Mays: saying if you cannot complete a pass and win a football game multiple scores but yeah it is a

1:30:11Derrik Klassen: good thing to point out my wonderful sister-in-law texted me during like the second quarter of this game and she was like is this allowed like can you just play a game in rain like this i was like believe it or not yes there's no lightning they will not call this off if there's no lightning

1:30:25Robert Mays: And I think a big part of this is that, well, why didn't the Falcons do this? Well, the Falcons couldn't run the ball that effectively. The Falcons tried to do some of this and finish with a 29.6 % rushing success rate. Although there were a couple plays. There were third and two when they were down six nothing in the first quarter. They try to throw a play action. Pitts is wide open and Pennix just sails it. And then there was a fourth and one that got stuffed in the second quarter. That was a tough play. And then there was a third and two RPO to open a third quarter drive where Penix throws it instead of handing it off.

1:30:57Robert Mays: So there weren't that many moments in this game where I was like, why are you not running the ball? But there were a couple of them. And that's enough. In a game where these were the conditions, the three or four times you might have been able to run it and didn't were enough to change this thing combined with the interceptions. And the interceptions were some of it is the conditions. Some of it's the decision making. Like, it's not just the conditions. Like the first one, I mean, Anzalone just drops right into the window and picks it off. The second one, he just throws it right to Anzalone. He just never sees him on like a third and 10 curl.

1:31:32Robert Mays: And then the third one, he comes back to it late, but it was fourth down. And then the fourth one is supposed to be a fake screen. And McCollum just reads it the entire way. And so the conditions are some of this, but three of the four interceptions, the fourth and sixth one's kind of whatever. You have to throw that ball. three of the four like he earned those those were choices that did not need to be made in those

1:31:53Dave Helman: moments most of those i think even if it was in a dome in perfect conditions he's not completing those like you're throwing that at the linebacker almost every single time can we mention the

1:32:04Derrik Klassen: coolest play that ultimately it's the type of play where you see it happen and you're like that's gonna loom so large that's gonna mean so much and it just didn't but the jesse baits strip at the pile oh yeah oh man just a even before that by the way a sick play all the way around because baker fumbles the snap and then it's just playground football where he gets out from behind the line and scrambles and then pitches to bucky irving just like it's not designed at all like he under pressure here he gets out bucky does a good job of following the play and baker just makes a heads up play this would have been so cool except jesse bates is one of the best safeties in the NFL.

1:32:42Derrik Klassen: And when that happened, I was like, oh my God, the Bucs are going to rue the day they did this. And it didn't matter. The Falcons didn't score any points, but it was still a really cool sequence.

1:32:52Robert Mays: Two points I want to make before we move on. One, Michael Penix finished with the 17th worst EPA per drop back of the next gen era, which is 11 seasons long. And so you can do the math on how many games that is. It's a lot of games among, it was among players with at least 10 drop backs in a game. Going back through some ones that were worse, we got, this is like a greatest hits album. Jake Browning against the Vikings last year. Max Brosmer versus the Vikings last year. Nathan Peterman, week one of the 2018 season. We have the Clayton Toons start on there. The Sam Darnold seeing ghosts game on there.

1:33:24Robert Mays: And so a lot of the games that have been worse than this Michael Panix performance statistically are some of the most notorious quarterback performances of the last decade, which is fitting when you go eight of 24 with four interceptions.

1:33:37Dave Helman: it's fitting to his defense. The rain was real. The ghosts were not. Correct. Give him that. Yeah.

1:33:42Robert Mays: A lot of these games happen without weather. And so, but when you think about just how bad it was and the last point about this, the bucks are now three and five and a half game out of the lead in the NFC South. We're back. They're coming. They're coming. We were, we thought that there might be some chaos with the NFC South with the Panther. We'd recorded on Thursday before the Panthers game, thought the Panthers might lose. If the bucks won, this thing is, we're, we're here. We are off to the races with a weird-ass NFC South, and we are officially here.

1:34:09Derrik Klassen: The Bucs know from experience it's way more fun to be good in November and December than September. Just look at last year.

1:34:17Robert Mays: Let's get to our last one here. The Pittsburgh Steelers take care of business against the Cleveland Browns, 27-6, eight sacks of Deshaun Watson, a monster day from the Pittsburgh Steelers running game. The Pittsburgh Steelers, as Derek alluded to a little bit earlier, you guys have our attention I think in a different sort of way I kind of think they're a good I think

1:34:40Dave Helman: they're just a flatly good football team I'm with you not no caveats no like style of the team blah blah blah this is a firmly good team and I don't know if that means championship caliber but they are they're going to be a tough out every week and it's not even just that like so we'll talk about the offensive line they are playing out of their minds the left side in particular Frazier McCormick Faltanu. They are insane. Darnell Washington, I think, has become a better player. The quarterback is trying to do more things. The running backs are great, especially now with Rico Dowdle. And the other thing I'll add, and this has been true of a couple of games this season, even if not every single game, I think Mike McCarthy called a damn ball game.

1:35:17Dave Helman: I thought he did really, really well in this game and just attacked them in very specific ways and kind of knew what was going to get them. They called at least three different long trap plays from the gun that were again if you're playing against Cleveland who are there in attack front they are going you just attack the three tech let him come up the field we're gonna run right behind you we're gonna climb to the linebacker and get him and they had multiple explosives doing that including on like a third and I think 13 what feels like a give up run but it was a really good call so you had that and then twice in this game they had the fake orbit screen that you were talking about earlier or like for them it was like a fake smoke screen where receiver pops off the line he looks like he's going to catch a screen two guys go vertical they hit darnell washington twice on that on an explosive while putting him in motion yes while putting him in motion they put the big tree man in motion and they were like surely because that's the thing when you put him in motion like that they're thinking okay they're trying to put the 300 pounder in motion to go murder my linebacker or safety nope running right by him because he can also do that for some reason i just it was an awesome called game i thought by mike mccarthy they did that twice there's one to one side one

1:36:28Robert Mays: to the left side my favorite play of the game when we're talking about big men being in motion the dowdle touchdown they have spencer anderson is in there as an extra offensive lineman they motion spencer anderson and then he inserts on that play he blow i think it was emmanuel mcneil warren just blows him like 10 yards deep into the end zone pushes him back so far that he picks off ronnie hickman the other safety and dowdle just walks in for a touchdown and so we have multiple guys we talk about hybrid positions right in the nfl right now not many team have teams have hybrid tight ends offensive linemen the steelers have two of them and they weaponized both of them in this game and we're having fun with this but that is a like that is part of why

1:37:15Derrik Klassen: the steelers just you can feel their physical physicality 100 absolutely and like i mean i know this is the NFL. I know every snap is physical and painful, but the Steelers are just one of those teams. And I would, I would apply this to the way the Bucs have been playing recently as well, but just pack a lunch, dude. They're going to mash you on both sides of the ball for the entire game.

1:37:38Robert Mays: I absolutely love it. Derek pointed it out that the amount of like trap runs they hit in this game, the 15 yarder up in the first quarter, there was the 51 yarder was on a trap run. There was a 23 yarder when they were up 13 to six against these four down attack fronts. It's absolutely the way to do it. They were spreading it out. They were doing out of 11 personnel. They were getting light boxes. They were hammering people on those. And just the way that they were able to, it's so it's a combination similar to the Bucs where it's a combination of talent and it's just clearly extremely well coached.

1:38:09Robert Mays: Like there are so many running games in the league right now where guys just aren't going to the right spot. It's really frustrating to watch. And then you contrast it with what the Steelers running game looks like right now. and it's just drastically different products. And these are like young players like Brock Hoffman and Max Ahanachor were not the starting right side of the offensive line at the beginning of this season. And you just look at how seamless that looks and just, I really, really, really love watching that element of the offense. And I am so glad that they finally decided this is who we're going to be as a football team.

1:38:41Dave Helman: Yeah, and there were a couple of plays where Ahanachor, like you saw the athleticism in space, like them getting him out on the perimeter, I thought was really good. He had a couple of good blocks on runs that way. One of my other favorite runs, too, where this was not even like a scheme thing. This was just what Dave's talking about, where you can feel the physicality. There was a third and four run right before the first quarter ended. I think they were like near it just inside the red zone. Zach Frazier slams the defensive tackle inside and then immediately climbs to the linebacker and takes him out.

1:39:10Dave Helman: And just like how forceful he is with all of those actions without wasting time. Like sometimes guys, like when they're trying to make sure they move that defensive tackle, they get stuck on it and they can't climb to the linebacker. Frazier is just like, boom, I'm punching you out of here and I'm getting to the next guy. And he like wins the play for them by himself and they convert and they're able to move the ball. And it's just you just feel how physical and smart and tough and athletic all of these guys. Because that's the other thing. They're not just smart and physical. These guys can move, dude.

1:39:41Dave Helman: Valotanu is a crazy athlete. Frazier is a crazy athlete. Hanachor is an awesome athlete. darnell washington for being that he's a 300 pound tight end is obviously a crazy athlete like they are just playing at a high level right now and this was good when it was just jalen warren now that you have rico dowdle who is like pull the string on his back and just let him go crazy and punch a linebacker in the face type of runner their run game is just sick dude i said barnwell

1:40:05Robert Mays: and i did a show this summer about guys who have never been first team all pro that could do it this year zach frazier is the first player that i picked it was just an easy one it was like a free space and I think we are trending very much in that direction with what he has looked like and what the Steelers offensive line has looked like overall on the other side of the ball eight sacks is pretty good you think pretty decent day for the defense and the defensive line overall the quarterback on the other team contributed to that but still a pretty decent outcome again I like it

1:40:34Derrik Klassen: when when things are simplified for me I'm just like oh you owned both lines of scrimmage completely and totally, that's a winning formula.

1:40:44Robert Mays: There were a couple. I mean, the defensive line deserves credit for, like, I mean, multiple different plays. Like, I mean, there's one with, like, 140 left in the second quarter. There's a stunt where Benton gets home where the right guard just can't hang on. Like, plays where the offensive line talent for Pittsburgh was just overwhelming. Also, at least three or four of those are just balls that have to be thrown. I mean, the first sack he takes, Boston is coming wide open on a wrap route. He just eats it. The sack fumble is really bad. The first sack fumble is really bad. Judy, same deal, coming wide open on a throw over the middle.

1:41:20Robert Mays: There's absolutely a window for him to complete that ball. He just turns it down, tries to run up in the pocket, puts the ball on the ground. And then there was a, those are probably the two worst ones. But then there was another one where they were down 7-0 and there's a bang, bang throw to Boston. He just doesn't take. And this was my concern. It's that when you're having him have to read stuff out in muddy areas, I just don't think that was happening very efficiently over the first seven weeks of the season. He's taken a lot of sacks in other games against lesser defenses. And so to see this happen, I don't think was necessarily surprising if you watch the types of throws he's been willing to make for the most part over the course of the year.

1:41:59Dave Helman: I mean, you mentioned it. It was like the second play of the game where they bring a little bit of heat and he just like turns down the throw that's going to be there to Boston and he eats the sack. And from that moment, I was just like, they're not going to have it today. Like if you, because that's what you have to do against this defense, because we talked about it coming in. They will give you voids underneath in the 10 yard area, whether it's some of their blitzes, just some of the way that they play zone or just the quality of some of their zone stuff, like those throws under 10 to 12 yards, it's going to be there.

1:42:26Dave Helman: And if you're not going to throw them immediately, like the pass rush will get to you. I know some of their numbers are like not the sexiest thing in the world right now, But like when they have their dudes, they can really, really get after you. And you obviously felt it in this game.

1:42:38Derrik Klassen: Derek, I had a take I wanted to share with you. I'd love your thoughts on it. Oh, let's hear it. It's linebacker related, obviously. I think his ceiling is pretty clearly defined at this point. I'm not trying to ascribe a higher level to him, but I'm ready to say Patrick Queen is playing pretty damn well for the Steelers right now.

1:43:00Dave Helman: He is playing much better. I think Peyton Wilson is also playing much better. I think their linebackers are like settling into this system a little bit. But I do think that Patrick Kroon is playing well. I think part of that, too, is like the D-line is a little bit healthier than they were earlier in the season. And so I think he's just a player where when he knows exactly what he's getting in terms of help and run defense, he doesn't start guessing as much. And then the way that they're using him as a blitzer, I mean, it's there on the screen right now. They had a number of times in this game where they were sending him, which when he was really good in Baltimore, that's what they did a lot.

1:43:29Dave Helman: because you want Roquan Smith obviously being the coverage piece. And so I'm glad that he's playing at a high level. And Peyton Wilson is still a very up and down player, but is giving them more than I think he had in years past. And if that was, I think we all agree, that was probably the worst part of the defense coming into it. And so if those guys can be solid to good more weeks than not, this defense is going to kick some ass.

1:43:51Derrik Klassen: They were like a blinking light for a lot of last year and even the year before that. And like, yeah, I don't think that they're the best linebacker tandem in football. And yeah, I think Queens coverage limitations put a ceiling on him. But like, I mean, they've to your point, they've sent him 16 times over the last three weeks. He's got five pressures and three sacks to go along the way to do it. Yeah. And like that, that's not bad. Like use him that way. That's great. Like, don't ask him to drop back and play a ton of coverage. That's fine. And it looks pretty damn good. And I know these aren't the best offenses they've been playing that might factor into it.

1:44:30Derrik Klassen: But, you know, for for how much we've dogged those two guys, I think it's worth saying that they're playing pretty well. All right.

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1:47:55Robert Mays: all right before we get out of here let's talk about what made us feel romantic about football

1:47:59Derrik Klassen: in week eight i mean this thing was a thing of beauty derrick this is all you buddy take it away

1:48:07Dave Helman: all right i'm gonna be a caricature of myself here but i have a stat from doug clausen which was sent to me by john shipley who obviously does really good reporting about the jack

1:48:16Robert Mays: Doug Clawson sounds like a fake person that is actually Derek. That is like, yeah.

1:48:22Dave Helman: I'm going to start using that, by the way. Anyway, this character who is not me, by the way, Trevor Lawrence is 14 and three with 44 total touchdowns over the last 365 days. He is one of five active quarterbacks with at least 14 plus wins and 44 total touchdowns in a 17 game span. The other four are Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, Aaron Rodgers. They are MVPs of the league. I am romantic about football that we don't really have to sit here and think about how good this player is anymore. He is obviously this kind of good. Maybe not to the exact level of Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen, but the fact that this prince who was promised prospect has finally made good on that level of talent.

1:49:09Dave Helman: And to tie it back to the show we did on the preview, Robert, you said, can this team in this offense led by this quarterback, obviously, just come out and kick the teeth in of a Colts team that is obviously not trying to win this year? And buddy, did they? They absolutely ran them out of the building today. And so the fact that there were years and years of like, is he good enough? Is he ever going to get the help he needs, even if he is good enough? The fact that we have finally arrived here where the offense is awesome, the coaching is awesome, and there is like really good stability there.

1:49:40Dave Helman: Like, when have we ever thought that like stability was a word that you would associate with the Jacksonville Jaguars? It's just the fact that we get this for a prospect that was obviously as talented as he was. You want to see those guys succeed. The Miles Garrets, the Jadavian Clownies, the Andrew Lux. Those caliber of prospects, you want to see what it can look like. I am romantic that we have finally arrived here with this player.

1:50:05Robert Mays: I love when we have these ideas of what franchises are. You see a logo. Derwin James said this to me a couple years ago, and I've never heard it put in these ways, but when you think about what does culture mean in the NFL, and he said, when you look at the logo, what do you think? That's good. And with the Jags. What do you think about when you see the Jags logo? And for years, what did we think about?

1:50:30Dave Helman: They're going to find a way to lose a game.

1:50:31Robert Mays: It was a color rush on Thursday nights. It was like playing games in London because no one gave a shit about them playing these games at home. You know, there are Jags teams from the last 25 years that I have harbor like real affection for. Like I love the 2007 Jaguars. I thought that was such a fun team. The 2017 Jaguars. I love that defense. I loved watching them play. But they were fleeting moments like it never, never felt real. It never felt sustainable. And so for them to look like this offensively, and I'm with you on the, what Trevor has been this year and over. essentially since the back half of last year into this year.

1:51:11Robert Mays: Today, there were plenty of stuff. Things were wide open. I mean, just by design, the offense is so well constructed. But to me, the play that ties it all together to me is the leaked touchdown to Borkutcher, where he's wide open. It's a play where you win by design. But Trevor has to make the defensive end miss in space. He jumps back inside. He throws the touchdown. And then we don't have a clip of this, but after that play happens, you see him like go over to brenton strange and kind of like smile and just be like yeah like we made that happen and to me it's the confidence he's clearly playing with like there's a confidence there's a joy there's a feel like every intangible element of what it would take for a guy that has this level of talent and that we talked about as this level of quarterback prospect for a really long time is coming into focus and that's cool as hell and i think the Jags for a very long time were a specific sort of franchise and now they feel very far away from that like they feel like a team that absolutely and justifiably believes that they can win the

1:52:14Dave Helman: Super Bowl and for me personally last year I know I said like I made at certain points where I was like yeah the Jaguars can can make this run and I called the Bills Jaguars game the AFC championship even though neither of them made it but then coming into this season when we did the windspool and we were picking all this other stuff. There was this kernel inside of me that was like, I don't know if I want to actually clasp onto it and believe it because I've been burned by this team before. I've been burned by this logo before. What they're doing now, all bets are off. I believe that that team is absolutely rock solid.

1:52:49Dave Helman: And again, this is not really about this week. This is about that previous Jags teams, even good ones, I would have had to really potentially pay attention to them losing a stupid game against the Colts today. Didn't even have to think about this game.

1:53:03Derrik Klassen: It is about this week because that's what we wanted it to be. And I didn't have to pay close attention to this after the midpoint of the second quarter. And that was really refreshing. Trevor's fourth in MVP odds right now. I mean, it's certainly on the table. It makes perfect sense. But like, I just I think about the shit that he caught for not looking like the guy that was as hyped as he was for years as recently as like last year.

1:53:32Dave Helman: Oh, halfway through last season. I mean, people are like, what's the point of Liam Cohen if he's not going to fix Trevor Lawrence, all this stuff?

1:53:38Derrik Klassen: I mean, he looks like he very legitimately could win MVP. It's only because Caleb's not going to play enough games. I mean, well, he is a he's actually I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, no. He has better odds than Caleb. He's got better odds than Caleb, Patrick Mahomes and Drake May and Jordan Love and Jared Goff. That's that's crazy to me. I mean, deserved. Don't get me wrong. But like to see the Jags quarterback sitting in that company with Brock Purdy, Josh Allen and Joe Burrow is I mean, I think that highlights exactly what we're talking about.

1:54:07Robert Mays: I kind of hope he wins it because that would mean that the Jags likely finishes the one seed in the AFC. And Derek was too much of a coward to take the Jags in the wins pool. I was not. Whatever cope you have to offer yourself.

1:54:19Dave Helman: It would be bittersweet for me.

1:54:20Robert Mays: I'm going to need them to rip off. How many games have they lost? Two. Okay, so I'm going to need them to rip off like 15 wins for me to have a shot.

1:54:27Derrik Klassen: They go to Baltimore on Thursday. Win. Which unfortunately does not look as scary as it once did. They got both games against the Titans coming up. Wins. They got a road trip to the Giants. Win. December 6th, Jags at Bears. Let's go. Oh, that's a banger. Let's do – I think Jags-Bears is the TAFs game. I think we should go. Is it here? Yeah. Is it noon? It's a noon game in Chicago. Maybe they'll move that to 3 o 'clock. We should just record it in the concourse at Soldier Field. Sounds like a plan.

1:55:01Robert Mays: I'm open to it. All right. Well, speaking of Bears games, I'm going to be on the Athletic Live tomorrow. if you guys have ever thought about what it would be like to watch me watch a Bears game you can experience that tomorrow because I'm going to be on the athletic live for three hours I don't know why I agreed to this was a terrible terrible idea Seahawks why'd you do that it was a terrible idea I mean it's being a good sport is completely overrated I want I should be a worse teammate as a result of that I will not be on the hangover tomorrow because I'm flying to Los Angeles during in the day.

1:55:32Robert Mays: Derek is going to handle that. We have Patriots Dolphins, Chargers Rams, and Raiders Jets are the three games we're hitting on the hangover tomorrow with Derek. Please go check that out. I will be on the recap show tomorrow night. And so that will also be coming to your guys' feeds overnight Monday into Tuesday. So please be on the lookout for that. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating.

1:56:03Robert Mays: We'll see you next time.

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1:56:59Robert Mays: what's his deal he went to metro and got 450 dollars in value on the new samsung galaxy a37 5g for free and no activation fees free phone oh sign me up get that more for your money feeling

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