We're going camping! Bengals, Colts, Lions and Vikings

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3:07Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Our fourth beat writer notebook today. Four more stops on this year's training camp tour. Started in Cincinnati with Paul Daner Jr. Always great to catch up with Paul. did that about a week ago. Just keep that in mind. Visited to Cincinnati in the 15th. So a little bit of time has passed since we had that conversation. Just a little bit of context. Next, James Boyd, our Colts writer at The Athletic. That's another one to bring up. They did not, had not signed Keenan Allen when we talked. So just something to keep in mind. After Indy, went to Detroit, chatted a little bit with Colton Pouncey, our Lions writer, and then finished things up in Minneapolis with Alec Lewis, who covers the Vikings for The Athletic.

3:47Robert Mays: Four really good conversations. Let's get to them right now.

3:54Robert Mays: joining us now it is our bankers writer here at the athletic paul dana jr how you doing sir what's up robert great to have you here it's good to be here i always enjoy when you show up i always love coming here it's truly one of my favorite stops every single year it's one of the only places that does open locker room yep and so i enjoy talking to the coaches here and everything else but it's it's fun to after you have those conversations be like oh man i didn't really think about that i'd like to ask a player about that and then you can just go up and ask them beautiful isn't it almost like the way it should work everywhere it is a very different dynamic than it is a lot of other places and uh i truly look forward to this stop every single year because there's always something to talk about right i mean they're interesting there is less drama this year than there's ever been during training camp like this is the most normal training camp insane in terms of who's available the storylines that i assume you've covered in several years here yeah i have not had a boring camp like this i honestly can't even remember because whether it was holdouts trey hendrickson situation was debacle last year you had jamar i totally forgot about that i saw how could you remember i don't know if i've talked about the podcast but i was in jacksonville and i saw him in the jacksonville airport the day he was flying to cincinnati which is like i just totally memory hold that but yes that was happening that was happening and so that was a whole thing and very distracting we had jamar and and like was he gonna miss week one back in 2024 like and and joe has always always a lot of times been coming back from something significant and that you know they had the wrist and like all that's there's always been when was the calf is that last year the calf was the big was no that was not last year that was 23 the first the early part it's hard to keep up there's hard to keep it all straight there's been a lot of them the appendectomy we had the one year like all there's just always been some form of craziness happening some self-inflicted some unlucky and now you have this team that has had this great offseason everybody's very happy like from the players to the coaches to the front office to the fans very happy with how everything went in the state of the team they've come and i'm sure everybody would knock on wood talking about this but like it has gone well in terms of no major injuries.

6:12I mean, they have continuity everywhere. They're literally like inventing new things to work on, to add to what they're doing. Everything about it is just calm, focused, and very much with an understanding of this team has an opportunity to really do something this year. You sense that in the building. Everybody has prioritized that. And it's not because they couldn't have drama. I mean, there's like the perfect example of this is DJ Turner, Chase Brown, Dax Hill, Miles Murphy, all could be Holdens if they wanted to be right now. They are up for extensions. They're good players. They have markets.

6:52And all of them, DJ Turner being the most notable because he'll get the most money, was like, I see the opportunity to win here. And I want to be part winning is what matters. And I want to be on the field. And he was in OTAs. That's been the attitude of everyone. And I think they sense the opportunity here.

7:09Robert Mays: The talking point, the bit of intrigue has been the movement on offense and what it might look like. Right. That's been the whole conversation all offseason. Aside from how are we going to make the defense better, which they did, it was what sort of changes are we going to see from the offense and what sort of benefits could we see from that? So what have you seen from the first couple of weeks of training camp here as they have transitioned to way more of this under center world than we've ever seen them do before? Yeah. Yeah, so there's a couple of aspects to this. The one is this is the taking advantage of the continuity I mentioned in that, you know, they recognized a couple of things.

7:44One, they haven't finished games well enough. Two, they haven't been explosive enough considering their personnel. There is one aspect that the rest of the league does ad nauseum that they don't that helps with both of those. And that is the under center thing. The problem is they haven't done it a lot. When they have tried to do it, they haven't been great at it. So let's get good at it was their thing. Let's do it. Let's dedicate ourselves to trying to get better at it so we can have it as a weapon in our tool belt. Not to change who they are. They're going to be Jamar and T and Joe Burrow processing to the end of days.

8:24They're not going to stop being that. Okay. But if they feel like they can get good at this and be better at it and are early downs, early in games, they can go to and maybe find an explosive or two in the run game or the pass game out of it. Great. And then when they get into four minutes, try to close games out. They can go under center. They can run play action, maybe hit an explosive or finish teams off that way. So we've seen them do a ton of it. Like all the way back to me, I wrote the big takeout on it back in June. Yeah. Because we saw it no tease. I'm like, they're doing this. And now that has kept up in camp.

8:58They have been doing it. We saw it in the first preseason game. Under center, under center play action. Repeat, repeat, repeat. They're trying to figure out. It hasn't always looked great. Like it's been clunky. But I think they're figuring it out a little bit. And so they can have that and feel like they can go to it. They may get into the season. And I think they've acknowledged this. And it may never really be a thing. But Burrow has been all aboard on it. he understands they had the conversation with him way back in the beginning of the offseason like this is something we need to have we we're not going to take away from you what you are and i think he in that also all of this the other side of this is the obvious is it's less hits potentially on burrow and a chance to take a little bit of that pressure give him a little bit more easy buttons where he doesn't have to be back there empty gun tackles on an island all the time.

9:51Robert Mays: My read on the situation is that they're doing it at a higher clip in practice than they ever would into the regular season because this is the opportunity to do it. If you need to retreat back into a familiar world, that's where the continuity matters. They know they can do all that stuff. They've seen every single person on this offense do it. There are no new players. And so I think this has been, understandably so, a bit of a trial and error period where it's like, Let's just do as much of this stuff as we realistically can for the balance. You still have to practice everything. But can we over-index on it to the point where we're getting as many reps as we possibly can bank during this time of year?

10:31Robert Mays: And then we'll figure out exactly what the right mix is when we get into the games. I mean, how many days of practice do they need to go out there in the shotgun with Joe and Jamar and T and feel on point for week one? One week? Yeah. Legitimately? now they'll do more than that but like legitimately they probably could just fire up the shotgun offense and roll with no problem and they have guys that have done it done at a high level you know maybe some of the best connections in all of football so there's just not a lot of concern with that so they're using this to work on other aspects which is which is an advantage you have they have built this advantage with the continuity that they have into their roster where they don't have to bring people along they're not like last year where they've got multiple rookies they're shoving into the offensive line and you know free agents that they're trying to figure out how they work and mix and adding guys in August like they don't need that they're in a great place on their two deep and so they're taking advantage of that and that's what good teams do I think one of the biggest questions and one of the biggest things to work out is going to be what it looks like in protection I think that with the running game my understanding based on how the first couple weeks have gone they're really happy with what the running game has looked like.

11:45Robert Mays: They're happy with the variety that they found, some of the different things they can go to. Protections is going to be something that it's just such a different world. And you saw that in the game against the Lions. Joe takes that sack because it's just the wrong call into the wrong defense in the wrong moment. And Chase Brown, when you're in the gun and there's just so much more clarity from both the quarterback and the back and the offensive line when it comes to protection stuff. When you're under center, the linebackers play a little bit differently. You're taking a play fake. So the way that you're seeing it is just a little bit more gray area.

12:16Robert Mays: And you saw that with Chase Brown on that sack where he's like, can I get out right away? Should I get out right away? And that little bit of hesitation, the outlet isn't there. And so I think that's going to be one of the things they have to really work on is Joe has had the same outlets, the same sets of outlets and how to get to them for how many years now, the outlets and where they are, how fast they become available to him. That's something that is changing. And I think you saw that in the preseason game i think that's something that they're consciously trying to work on right yeah and that's it's gonna be a trial and a work in progress for them and but the end of the day is man if they get it to a point that they do get comfortable with that there's nothing that they can't go to yeah i mean they have everything they have everything at their disposal they're playing a team that has struggled with that this year and you can just Let's lean heavily into this chapter of the playbook this week.

13:07They haven't done that in the past. They've gone there and been like, it doesn't matter what the other team is matchup wise. We're just going to go back there and Burrow is going to process you to death. And we're going to go 12 plays, 80 yards and score. Well, great. You need to have a more explosive offense. You can't count on doing that over and over again. And it's exhausting. and they need to develop something that is easier on the linemen, easier on Burrow, and just be able to go and give those guys a little bit. I talked to Joe Flacco, who might have taken more under center play action reps in the history of the NFL, about this when I was writing about this in June.

13:45And he's like, that's the biggest thing, is you have to do right by the rest. It's not that every play doesn't have to be the most complicated chess match you've ever been in. Give people a break. Let them go run and knock people in the mouth and go under center and give your offensive lineman a break from having to be back there and doing these complicated protections because the league and you know this, like the league is trended that way because defenses have never been harder to diagnose. like you need to simplify things for yourself offensively because yeah maybe joe can do that maybe better than anybody in the game right now but you need to give everybody a chance to not have to do that it's too hard with the all the exotics and the sim pressures and in the stunts like all that stuff is hard and uh you you don't want to be constantly putting yourself in that situation specifically in early downs but guess what third and seven let me tell you what it's going to look like it's going to be probably it's going to be chase brown next to joe burrow and the shotgun and T and Jamar and, and get sick.

14:46And these guys are going to be out there cooking people because that's what they do. They're going to, they're not going to stop serving the steak, you know,

14:51Robert Mays: on two different fronts. When you look at the run game, they were not explosive running the ball last year. I think they were 30th or 31st and explosive run percentage from a gun under center. I think they were first. And some of that is volume and it's a small sample, whatever, but they can get more explosive that way. And the other part of it is if you look at the rushing efficiency numbers, especially in the second half of the year, they were efficient running the ball, but they're efficient running the ball on very specific terms, right? If we're getting blown out, we're getting up 30 points a game and we want to run the ball out of the gun.

15:18Robert Mays: These teams are going to let us do that. Yeah. Yes. They're going to let you do that. They're begging. Now it's a question where if the defense is better, if the team is better, if it's 21 to 14 with six minutes left in the fourth quarter, can we run the ball on our terms? And I think this potentially gives them a chance to do that in a way that the old structure of the offense, it was harder to tap into that version of it in those high leverage moments when you needed to be able to do it. Yeah, I mean, in most of those high leverage moments, they would turn to Joe. I mean, you look at their rates on short yardage, third and fourth down short yardage, like they throw it more than anybody.

15:50Understandable, they don't want to take the ball out of Joe's hands, but you need to be able to take the ball out of Joe's hands and at least have the other team thinking about that more often and be able to be effective with it. I just think they did a good job as a staff this offseason recognizing their blind spots. this is a hole for us these these three holes have one solution that can at least help flip the percentages 10 to 15 percent in a better direction for us whether it's explosives hits early down runs that are effective like all of that stuff kind of gets touched by this which is why they're focusing so much on it but you know we know what it's going to look like um against the bucks in the fourth quarter if it's 14 14 like it's it's going to be the the guys doing what they do

16:37Robert Mays: They bring back everybody on offense, right? Like the 11 starters in theory, like we'll talk about tight end and what that means, but like it's at least 10 of the 11 are the same guys that we're used to. If I had to pick out two things that I find interesting and I'm wondering if they'd be the same two for you. One, Eric Hall is a new piece for this compared to what he has been over the last couple of years. You saw the element he was giving them before he got hurt two years ago. That is something that they'll have that they didn't have before. Like that type of tight end, they did miss that guy last year.

17:03Robert Mays: The only real blocking tight end they have is Drew Sample and then they have Mike Kosicki who's a big receiver all they can use in so many different ways besides from those other guys I think that'll feel different and then on the other side like it's the same 11 guys but who should be who should we be worried about it feels like the left tackle is the spot where if I were a Bengals fan that would be keeping me up at night a little bit would you say those are the two points of interest one good one bad that might feel a little bit different than they did when this team was at its best yeah I mean I would say yeah for sure I think tackle depth too.

17:36Robert Mays: They don't have a swing tackle right now. They're still working on it. Cody Ford is theoretically that guy, but he's kind of been a roller coaster over the course of his career. He had weight issues last year. He's lost 40 pounds. He's built a little bit more to play tackle, but I don't know what you're necessarily going to get there. You can't say for certain. They didn't really address it. They didn't sign anybody. They didn't really draft anybody. Jalen Hurd is out there today. Playing tackle, which he got moved to guard last year after playing tackle in the beginning of camp. So they're chasing.

18:07They're experimenting. They're looking right now. And yeah, Orlando, he's had some rough moments in this camp. He had some rough moments last year. But as a five, they were really good at the end of last year. And so I think as a part of the group, Orlando has fit in just fine. But if you're looking at where a spot is, it's like, what is that going to look like? He's crossed 30 now. Is there going to be an impact? And he's a bigger guy. You don't know exactly what it's going to look like, but there's been enough rough moments. I think you have to think twice about it. And it's not like there's some other plan.

18:45It's not like they drafted a tackle in round two or three. That could be an answer in week six. If things go wrong, they didn't do that. They may miss that hitting that box. Well,

18:56Robert Mays: you needed to use all those resources on defense. And so they did. And that's what they did. Yeah. And so the Dexter Lawrence part of this, it was funny. I was talking to Ted Karras in the locker room and I think he said the most, he said the most interesting training camp to me of like maybe any player in the NFL, because we have these two elements that are pulling in opposite directions. The scheme is making it easier on the offensive line, right? Like we just talked about it, but now he has to play against Dexter Lawrence every single day. And we were just talking about the challenge and just what that's been.

19:23Robert Mays: And I think he's enjoyed it in a way because in year 11, you don't often feel like you're getting pushed to places that you've never been before as an NFL player. and he's had to be. But something he said that this is the thought process when you make the Dexter Lawrence trade and the hope is that this will actually come to fruition. He's like every player on the defense gets 10 points better because he's there. And that I think is the starting point for the argument for why this can feel so much different this year is that it's not just that you have Dexter Lawrence now. It's that Dexter Lawrence has the potential to make your two linebackers better.

19:52Robert Mays: He makes your safeties better because now you can play more too high stuff on early downs and you can disguise a little bit more. The thought would be that the entire defense can change a little bit because you have Dexter Lawrence. Would you say that has been the theme so far and that's the idea behind all of this? Yeah. I mean, that's why they gave up the 10th overall pick and did something they've never done in franchise history because they saw the opportunity and what it would mean specifically to them. Here's another reason why. I mean, yeah, he's the cliche force multiplier and he's the dictionary definition.

20:25but when they went in free agency and they got way mafe and they got jonathan allen and then what they saw the second half of the last season from miles murphy they saw one-on-one winners they saw guys that could win quick um maybe not always finishers um but like when they watched jonathan allen and everything what was what's happening with him in minnesota they're like when you the one thing that they told me was look when we watched it we saw a lot of things happening. But when he was left one-on-one, he was still winning. And that's what we needed. That was their message. We need that. And then Mafe obviously is that.

21:03Well, then you go get the guy that sucks. His gravity sucks the double teams and creates more one-on-ones when you've put one-on-one winners around him. The disruption that comes from that is a well-constructed plan. right and now then behind those guys you have all the guys who were supposed to be your starters at this point and guys that have high upsides again one-on-one winners cash is how that was pretty much the definition to him uh defensive player of the year in the sec and and that's who he can be in that mix as well shamar stewart you don't know what you're getting when now you don't have to get something last year he was the guy he had to be the guy failed big part of why they failed um he doesn't have to be that this year chris jenkins a guy they drafted in the second round he doesn't have to be that guy this year he can be just gonna fight for a position on this roster bj hill doesn't have to play 750 snaps you have if guess what if you have one 31 year old three technique it's not great if you have two actually that works you can split it and take a little bit of the off of them and it works out a little bit better two of those guys makes one one average 26 year old right

22:12Robert Mays: Slayton, right? It was just like now Slayton was the guy they were asking to be Dexter Lawrence last year. And now Dexter Lawrence gets to be Dexter. I mean, I'm intrigued because with Shamar Stewart got hurt like the first rep of camp. And so they started playing Slayton and Lawrence next to each other in the five down. And I'm in it. I'm into it. It's fun because normally the problem is you just are not getting any pass rush out of the middle. But guess what? With Dexter Lawrence, you are. And now you have two 335 pound or 350 in Lawrence's case madman that you would never consider running at.

22:45Well, that's a great advantage to have in lots of situations. So they have so much depth and they saw what Philadelphia, they have referenced often this offseason, Philadelphia and Seattle. And like this is what they threw so many resources at the line and let the line help fix everything behind them. And guess what? There are names at linebacker in Philadelphia, in Seattle that people had never heard of or were cast offs or nobodies. And they played just great behind dominant defensive lines. And they looked at Barrett Carter and Demetrius Knight and said, we got two guys that just each had 700 plus snaps and 100 plus tackles last year.

23:26they will be better with a second year in the system and playing behind these guys just like we've seen happen in all these places around the league houston's even an example of this guys that you know now they both everybody gets paid yeah playing behind these dominant defensive lines they saw that as the vision we can't fix it all so bad last year can't fix all of it but if you fix the line it sure can get close to making all the rest of those guys better and that's what But you're talking about the 10 points better from Dexter Lawrence. The line as a whole, I think, is the answer to that across this defense.

23:59Robert Mays: It was just, let's be honest, it was a bad plan at linebacker last year. Suicidal plan. Having those two guys as rookies try to play off of one another and just being in such a young room at a position where the development curve is just incredibly high. The way that the game is played right now, we're talking about it with one of the coaches today where it's like, you're already in a difficult position. And now you're in a place where I think about the offenses you're playing against and every jet and everything. And like the amount of eye candy that currently exists, like it's probably harder to develop as an off ball linebacker now that it's ever been in the NFL.

24:33Robert Mays: And you asked two guys to do that together with no veteran sounding board to like help them through in the back half of the season. And so, yeah, I think the assumption is they, they will be better. They have to be better than they were last year. It would be impossible for them to be as bad. Barrett Carter got thrown in in week five next to night. And he's like, I'd never seen a fullback before. I mean, just wrap your brain around this. He's like, I have fullbacks in the ACC. Yeah, no, he's like, I'd never seen that. I'd never seen these types of runs. I've never, I'd never seen this. And now here he is in the NFL and he looks to his right and he sees another rookie who's like shrugs back at him.

25:14Like, I don't know. I'm drowning too. And that's how you have the worst defense in the history of the NFL through 11 weeks last season. Because offensive coordinators came into every week just like, oh, what can I cook up for these two dudes? And so every team would come in with crazy eye candy. I mean, when Ben Johnson in Chicago came in here, it was unfair. That was the example that was used to be.

25:39Robert Mays: I didn't want to say it was an example. It was not fair what he did to those poor boys. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, don't, but it's like, but that's what every coordinator watches that. It's like, what can we cook up to, for these guys? They have no clue what they're doing right now. And they didn't, and they settled down and they did get better as the year went on. And you have to credit them for that. And to be fair, like those guys, they stuck with them. And I still, it's still hard to believe they didn't add anyone to the room, but they stuck with them because they saw two guys that were built the right way mentally to not let that break them.

26:15That is exactly what came up today. It didn't break them. Yes. Which is, it could have, it easily could have. Most I would think would be broken.

26:21Robert Mays: And so I think now what the story you have to tell yourself is because it didn't, that becomes a positive experience. Like because there, there wasn't an amount of scar tissue that formed that we feel like is lasting because they were thrown into the fire like that. Now can we reap the benefits of the, on the other side? That's to talk yourself into that being the case. But I think that's what they're trying to tell themselves. Yeah. We still don't know what it's going to look like. No idea. They still haven't had to tackle a soul this year, but they are playing more confidently. They do seem to feed off the fact that they know what's going on now.

26:53They feel like they belong and it can't be worse than it was last year. And there's nothing that's going to be that hard ever maybe in their life. And so they feel confident in themselves to do that job. And theoretically, not only will they now have had a year in the NFL, but they'll have these guys in front of them, everything about and behind them with Brian Cook, everything about their job is exponentially easier this year. Now we see if with that, you are a good player. We don't know that yet.

27:24Robert Mays: The Brian Cook signing was one of the most obvious and clear cut signings in free agency. You have the best tackling safety, potentially in the NFL last year, coming into a room that was the worst tackling safety room in the league. My understanding is that DJ Turner has looked as good or better in this camp than he did even last year, which is incredible. Miles Murphy saying that those two guys have really stood out. Where are the question marks still for you on the defense? What needs to be resolved between now and week one amidst all of this optimism? I think you got to know what's going to happen at nickel.

27:53You have Jalen Davis, who last year, midway through the year, when things got better, Jalen Davis came off the practice squad. He's a 30-year-old, almost career practice squatter. He's actually the only as good trivia question. He's the only guy on that defensive in the whole secondary, including coaches still here from 2021. It's incredible. He was like a new guy in the practice squad at that point. He's just stuck around. But he knew what he was doing. So he brought stability last year, and it allowed them to kick Dax Hill outside. And he's just found a home there. That dude's been searching for a home since he was drafted.

28:29He really has. He's found one. He's confident they played better that way with him in there. It's a nice story. he's a 30 year old practice squatter okay just see your taylor's in here he's kind of in competition for that obviously the packages that they run when they go to the five down where they have cassius howe or mafe and mont murphy playing the edges and they go bigger down there allows them to take that guy off the field i think kyle duggar is going to be a part of that solution bigger nickel option third safety big nickel dj ivy covering tight ends as a third corner like There's options.

29:03But again, those are sub packages. You still are going to you're plugging and playing and trying to find matchups. What are they doing with that spot consistently is going to be a question because that's where teams are going to be looking to attack. So I probably would start there.

29:23Robert Mays: Yeah, that's really the only positional question I have in terms of the 22 starters. Compared to like if you played a what's your weakest link game, they don't have any problem that other teams don't have, even ones in good situations. Like do you love their backup corner depth? No. There's a lot of bets there, but they have a pick. They have DJ Ivy who is like having a nice camp. You know, a hell of a practice today. Yeah, but like they needed him to step up because otherwise there's a lot of people you don't know. And those guys are going to play. The third, fourth cornerback always plays. But that's what it really is.

29:58How quickly will it come together? Is Algoldin a good defensive coordinator? These are the questions that are out there. But if you just forget what you know about this defense from the last two years, you just wipe that out of your memory and you just lay down the personnel on paper, their players are good. They're much better. They have a good enough personnel to be a really good defense. How quick does it come together? Can Al Golden coach it up and call it to be a high-end defense? Those are questions. I think maybe some people were wondering about Dexter Lawrence. I feel like he is going to be, at least for one year for sure, the game wrecker that he was in his prime because he has a very clear chip on his shoulder here.

30:49He heard the talk when he was requesting a terrain. He heard the thing, and I think he was just the ultimate change of scenery. And if you get that, like everything falls into place. That is the plan. If if he does that now, if he's closer to who he was last year, yeah, you might have some problems that can creep up. But if he's the dedicated dude, he never left. He signed and he was working out that day and he and he was working out during OTAs. He never left. That's because he showed up here like I want to prove a point about I was worth it. everybody that was talking that talk about me is about to eat those words.

31:28And I'm going to come out here and change the game. And if he does that, they have more than enough to have a really good defense. But, you know, it still has to come together.

31:38Robert Mays: Fascinating year for a fascinating team. Always good to catch up with you, sir. We'll do it again very soon. I know, I know none of us really wants to admit it, but the end of the summer is approaching. Quince can help take some of the sting out of it, though, because look, when you look good, you feel good. And maybe you don't mind that the summer is over and with the fall staples that Quince can provide, you are going to look very, very good. Quince specializes in everyday staples that work harder, like their ultra soft organic cotton tees and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're versatile, timeless, and transition seamlessly from a casual workday to a dinner out.

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35:37Robert Mays: joining us now from the grand sports park complex in westfield indiana where the colts do their training camp it is our culture at the athletic james boyd how you doing sir i'm doing good it was a hot one for both of us it was i literally had to go change my shorts because it was so so that's where we're at today that's training camp baby we made it through this is my last time up here. I know. This is our last training camp up here. And so it's, I've been coming up here for a very long time. I literally was going back through old interviews on my phone on the plane when I was flying back home from Cleveland, just being like conversations I've had in years past and stuff like that.

36:13Robert Mays: And the first conversation I ever had with Chris Bauer was in 2017 in the indoor facility in Grand Park. And so it just, it's I've been coming up here for almost 10 years. And so the fact that they're moving it back to the facility next year will be a little bit of a different routine for Colts training camp.

36:27James Boyd: It definitely will be. I got to run the 40-yard dash one more time before they close this up. I ran a 5-4-6. I think that the timers were off. And so T.Y. Hilton actually reached out when I posted it on Twitter and he told me I got to run it again. So now the fans are telling me if the ghost says you got to run, you got to run. So I'll be doing that on the last day, actually after the joint practice later this week against the Falcons.

36:50Robert Mays: Speaking of running and speaking of being able to run, the thing that has blown me away and obviously i'd heard about this before i got here but talking to people here about just what they've gotten from daniel jones there's been no limitations whatsoever he's taken every first team rep with the ones there he's under centered they're booting him out i mean really there hasn't been any sort of change to the plan they even would have had with him coming into the season like this is incredible to me so you can confirm that like it sounds like he's just been the quarterback since day one and there really has been no limitations physically on what they've

37:24James Boyd: been asking him to do absolutely and i think camp was when we really saw it open up throughout the spring they were still kind of playing it kind of cautious and he wasn't allowed to scramble or run and then he would sprint after practice in the spring and you could kind of see like he really wasn't pushing it but now i think if you are somebody who hasn't watched a down of football has no idea who he is you would never be able to tell that just over eight months ago he tore his Achilles. And so it's pretty crazy the advances we've seen in modern medicine, but also it's a testament to Daniel, who's I think one reason why the locker room loves him is that he puts in the work, whether that's rehab, whether that's the film room, whether that's the playbook, whatever, to be at his best.

38:03James Boyd: And now I think that the culture is starting to see and have some hope to know, okay, QB1 is going to be ready for week one.

38:08Robert Mays: My biggest concern with this team after last year and after some of the you know, they traded a first round picks for Sauce Gardner, right? Like they put so much into what this season was going to be. All right, if you're going to lose the first six weeks because the quarterback doesn't look right, I mean, it's just such a tough break after being so aggressive last year. And so the fact that that is off the table and it just seems like we can click back into the offense we were a year ago with the quarterback being healthy, it's the best possible outcome that you could have hoped for. It's like, it changes to me, like the dynamic for the entire team in a way.

38:41James Boyd: Absolutely, because you're building instead of trying to relay the foundation. And so you talk about Tyler Warren going into year two and Josh Downs in a contract year and others, they're building that chemistry and they have belief because it's like, OK, well, we're not worried about our guy being out there. I actually talked to Josh Downs about this last week during the joint practice with the Patriots. And he was telling me, yes, this is an amazing opportunity because we don't have to look over our shoulder and figure out who's going to be our guy.

39:08Robert Mays: For the first time in a long time here, that is the case.

39:11James Boyd: Yes, exactly. And honestly, it's a testament to the impression Daniel made even last year, because keep in mind, he's only healthy for about 10 games. And after 10 games, they gave him$88 million on a two year deal and said, no, we will not actually let you leave. And we'll put the transition tag on you first to make sure you can't leave and then bring you back. So it worked out very well. And like I said, the guys love him. He is someone who is boring to us, but they all have bought into Daniel Jones, QB1. And really just, I think the toughness aspect, the care factor, all of those things, and really the camaraderie as well.

39:45James Boyd: We have a running joke with Daniel that he's always liked to team dinner because he's always watching a few more clips than everybody else is.

39:52Robert Mays: So the Daniel Jones part of this is now settled. He's healthy. He's playing quarterback. The other big, not lingering question is what's going to happen with Alec Pierce and when are we going to see Alec Pierce? What is your sense for how quickly he gets reincorporated back into the offense?

40:07James Boyd: Yeah, I don't feel great about it right now because we sit here today about a month away from the season opener. He still isn't really doing anything on the field. We have seen a little bit of individual work, you know, but we haven't seen Alec Pierce just like step on the gas, run as hard as he can. We know he's like a four three guy, a great deep that we just haven't seen that from him. And he still is a practicing. Now, to be fair to him, he did say back in the spring, I got this surgery before to six months. we're about at the five month mark and six months will be right up against the start of the season so to be fair to him he isn't like behind schedule but it is a bit like concerning when you look at the rest of the wide receiver room around him but right now i wouldn't like bet on him being like quote-unquote alec pearson week one he could be available but it's hard for me right now to see him being like this super dynamic player just because he hasn't done a lot of movement and

40:58Robert Mays: football related things over the last several months yeah i think they're optimistic i think that he can be ready for week one. How quickly he gets back to practice is going to determine that. But I think the hope would be that we can see him in practice in the couple weeks before week one and that he'll be ready to go. Because I think in talking to people, that's not as big of a concern as some of the other positional concerns on offense. Who's the third receiver going to be? Who's the third tackle going to be? I think that right now, there's a little bit more urgency. And those questions, I think, are a little bit more burning than what's going to happen with Alec Pierce.

41:29Robert Mays: Which, if you're a Colts fan or you're playing fantasy football, that's a good thing to hear. The fact that they're more worried about who their third receiver is not going to be, not when are we going to see Alec Pearson, which is a good thing.

41:39James Boyd: My only question with that is, OK, and I agree that he's still on track to be ready for week one. But same thing with Daniel. OK, you're healthy, you're cleared. But when are you Daniel? Yeah, of course. Alec again. But yes, you make a very good point about the rest of the room, because outside of Alec Pearson, Josh Downs, there's a lot of question marks about your depth, which, to be honest, Robert, but I kind of took it for granted over the last few years. Dude, they do have three guys. They get it done. And that's almost, not even almost, it's a luxury to have that sort of production in the NFL.

42:11James Boyd: And now they're kind of living in the world of everybody else where it's like, we got our two guys. Who's going to be that third dude to alleviate some pressure?

42:17Robert Mays: Right now, it's probably Ashton Doolin. I mean, Ashton Doolin is their third guy. But the problem with that is, one, just in terms of beyond just quality, he's their best special teams player. And so you are cannibalizing that a little bit if he's going to be your third receiver. And so it really does seem like there's a move left to be made. Whether that's Keenan Allen, which is like people are connecting the dots, and justifiably so. And I think on two fronts, this makes sense. One, if you have Alec Pierce back and you have Josh Downs, Keenan Allen becomes a logical fit skill set-wise into that group as the third receiver.

42:49Robert Mays: So it fits on that front, and he knows all this shit. He knows the offense. And so the fact that he can come in and kind of hit the ground running, it almost makes too much sense. Whether they can get there on the money, we'll see. But I would not be surprised if Keenan Allen was a member of the Colts by the time the season started.

43:06James Boyd: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it's not a secret. I pre-read a lot of things. It's pre-written just to make sure I'm keeping myself accountable when it comes to hopefully some breaking news. But, yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense, too. There could be some redundancy, a little bit, because of the short yardage uses of Josh Downs and Keenan Allen. But this is where I trust Shane to be the mastermind, to make these things work. And at the same time, you trust production. Even Keenan Allen, old Keenan Allen, looked it up the other day. Over the last nine years, he's given you at least 50 catches, 700 yards, and four touchdowns.

43:38Robert Mays: He can roll out of bed and get 50 catches and 700 yards.

43:40James Boyd: Exactly, and he got the third and Keenan nickname for a reason, and you're looking at somebody to move the chains, you can do that. But also, I think what maybe makes the Colts less hesitant to just go for right now is knowing that they do have a very unique tight end in Tyler Warren, who can be the focal point of your passing offense. taking anything away from Alec Pierce or Josh Downs, but he's someone who's so unique that you start to think, okay, like you said, money-wise, will it work? But also, we have some really cool pieces we can still work with.

44:08Robert Mays: The Josh Downs question, I think, is can he hold up on the outside? Can he be a full-time player in 12 personnel? From what you have seen, from what you have asked, and what they've said, what is the view and kind of the feel about his usage and just the prominence he's going to have within the offense over the course of this year?

44:23James Boyd: Well, it definitely should go up because you don't have Aidy Mitchell. He's in New York now with the Jets. You don't have Michael Pittman Jr. who led the team in catches, I want to say, for the last five years. He's now in Pittsburgh with the Steelers. But when he has lined up outside, and granted, this could be because he's going against Sauce Gardner, I haven't seen enough to make me feel better about that consistently being an option for him. Like option routes, when it comes to short yardage routes, those types of things. Like anything that's short area quickness, he wins that hands down. But getting outside, I do think he can get a little bullied.

44:54James Boyd: and we've seen that even in the joint practice with the Patriots every time he pretty much won he's lining up inside and then getting back outside versus just lining up outside so that's something he says he can do he's confident he can do it I do think he can do it occasionally but I just don't really want to like bet on that because of the size factor I mean at the end of the day you're 5 '9 and I just don't know if you can win enough in that position and so we'll see again how creative can you be but you know how it is Robert like sometimes you can have the most creative play call ever but you just need a dude to make a play And usually when he's making a play, it's not I'm going up over the top of somebody.

45:27James Boyd: It's me using my strengths to better get open, things like that.

45:30Robert Mays: Any other questions to you about the offense personnel-wise that you feel like need to be sorted out here over the next month?

45:35James Boyd: Not questions, but a question, not for personnel, is just how the personnel perform, is Jalen Travis. I think this fan base has kind of glossed over the fact that Braid Smith was such a good right tackle for so long.

45:47Robert Mays: They've also gotten so spoiled. Like every year we're just sliding in a new, a new like third or fourth round pick into the mix. And we're just not going to skip a beat. Like it's a charmed life to live. I think you can get a little bit complacent watching your team do this over and over and over again.

46:00James Boyd: And we know we make the joke all the time. We never show any love to offensive linemen. I think you actually do here on the pod, but most places you don't really hear much about it unless they mess something up. You don't hear much about these guys to just get the job done. And Tony Sprano Jr. I think is one of the best position coaches in the league and he's earned the right to be trusted with his development. But still, Jalen Travis, I think, is stepping into some big shoes on that right side of the line just because Brad Smith for almost a decade was your anchor. He was relied on. Was he a pro ball pro?

46:28James Boyd: No, but he was still in the top half of right tackles in the league and very, very good. So that's one question I have. And then just depth. You know, people get banged up. Who is your backup tackle? I don't really trust Blake Freeland. Luke Tenuta was kind of that guy. He just got banged up in the preseason. So I have some questions there.

46:44Robert Mays: I'm wondering if that were to happen. If you lose one of the tackles, especially like the right tackle, for example, does Gonsalves pop out to tackle? And do you play Jalen Farmer at guard?

46:55James Boyd: That to me is like the working theory. I think it has to be right.

46:58Robert Mays: Because from all accounts, it seems like they're really happy with what they've seen from Jalen Farmer so far. And if that ends up being your best five and that's not you've seen him play tackle. You don't want him to, but you've seen him play tackle in his career. And so that seems like the breaking case of emergency option if they do have to go that well.

47:14James Boyd: Yeah. And it makes sense. I mean, Jalen Farmer is somebody, again, you just mentioned it here. They don't just draft offensive linemen and bury them on the depth. These guys play. They get opportunities. And so I do think he would be that next guy up for him. He's had a pretty good camp so far. And every now and then I'm looking at him, I'm just like, how are we the same species? And I also think that him and Coach Verano kind of speak the same language all those guys do. But I remember when he got drafted, Robert, and his entry press conference, Zoom call, whatever you want to call it. It wasn't really all that great from a media standpoint.

47:45James Boyd: Because if you ask him a question, he's just like, yeah, I'm a dog. I like to play ball. That's what I want out of my offensive lineman, though.

47:51Robert Mays: I want them to say absolutely nothing except for that. There are two types of offensive linemen I want. I want a guy that is the most thoughtful, brilliant. like I could be where I could be like making millions of dollars somewhere else if I wanted to be, or I want the guy who's just like, I'm a dog. I kill people. That's like, it's one of those two. I don't care about any other personality along the offensive line.

48:14James Boyd: And it's funny you mentioned that because Jalen Travis, I think he had like an internship like in Congress a few years ago and he's super into like, you know, just politics in the world. And it's, he got one end of the spectrum and he got Jalen Farmer. Who's like literally like a farmer, like wake up, do this, go to home, him go to sleep. And so they're excited about his potential with this group. And again, it just makes sense to continue to backfill because you never know who might get old quicker or who might, hey, money-wise, who can we pay? So it seems like the Colts have done a good job over the last few years, several years, I should say, of making sure they have that crop always kind of coming along to replace the guys that eventually get phased out.

48:51Robert Mays: I feel like that's the headline stuff on offense. Anybody that's surprised you? Anybody that's stood out a little bit that people might not appreciate who haven't been here every day?

49:00James Boyd: So one guy who stood out a lot throughout camp is Will Mallory, a tight end out of Miami. He only appeared in two games last year, but considering the wide receiver situation right now, I just wonder on that initial 53-man roster, would the Colts lean towards keeping a fourth tight end behind, you know, Drew Ogletree, Molly Cox, and obviously the starter in Tyler Warren, because he is kind of like the bigger wide receiver. Like he has to improve as a blocker. I think that's why he doesn't see the field more often, But I swear every single practice, he's making a play down the field. He's moving the chains.

49:34James Boyd: And so he's somebody that I think this offense is definitely friendly for and can be utilized. And again, it doesn't mean he has to be on offense and play, you know, 50 snaps. But I wouldn't be surprised if he's somebody who continues to push Shane to think, OK, is there a couple of calls I could have for him that we put in here to utilize his skill set? So that's one for sure.

49:54Robert Mays: His name came up multiple times in conversation with people today. And so I think that there are a few people in the building that have their eye on what he could potentially be. Because like you said, his skill set is just very different than any of the other tight ends that they have. And we've seen these multi-tight end groups, 13 personnel stuff the Rams did. It comes alive because you have a player like Terrence Ferguson who can give you a vertical element with some of those plays. And Mallory is giving you that in a way that Tyler Warren and Mo Alleycox and Drew Ogletree just thought. And so I think there's a real argument because of how unique and kind of strange the receiver room looks right now that you want a player like that because you can just do so many more different things.

50:32Robert Mays: So that's the offense where there I think there are fewer questions. The defense positionally, I mean, like linebacker seems like the biggest question on this entire team. Would you say that's fair?

50:41James Boyd: Absolutely. I mean, they've rotated probably about six, maybe seven linebackers wild getting first team reps. And we talked to Luana Rumo about it last week. And, you know, he's giving you the typical coach answer. oh we're just giving all these guys opportunities but i do wonder if there's questions there of like do we want an established two guys out here that we trust to play and i think part of the reason why maybe it hasn't been as clearly defined is because cj allen their second round pick who the night that he was drafted chris bell told us he's a green dot where he's he can probably start from day one he hasn't been out here because he's had a couple of soft tissue injuries and things like that got back out here today which is a positive for the colts but without him kind of you know, warping up all those reps, it just opens this door for other guys to step in.

51:27James Boyd: And one guy who I think is quietly building a case to perhaps be a week one starter is Bryce Boettcher. The other rookie linebacker they drafted out of Oregon, played a lot of ball at Oregon, let the big 10 in tackles last year, knows where, you know, he should be. I do think you always have questions with linebackers. Can you play in space? Can you run? Like, it's like every time I talk about linebackers, Robert, I got somebody telling me on social media, like, and these guys can't cover. where it's like, well, everyone can't be Fred Warner. Like, I'm sorry. That's just not the reality. There's flaws within these guys.

51:56James Boyd: There's a reason why they're not, you know, you know, safeties and things like that. And so that's a question mark for, I think the entire group is, okay, will you get picked on in coverage? But right now it seems like they're just still trying to get like a flavor or rhythm of what they want in that room. And I am concerned about it. I would be lying to you if I said I wasn't, but I think if we can get CJ Allen into some more joint practices here in a couple of days, some more reps in preseason, perhaps that kind of end a little bit of like the trepidation that they might have.

52:22Robert Mays: It feels like you have a choice to make. If you're Luana Ramo based on how better has looked and what their expectations are for CJ Allen. On one side, your two best, most talented linebackers are probably your rookies. Yep. Do you want to play two rookie linebackers next to each other for a huge chunk of this season? And that's the argument about Kim Davis Gaither, right? Is that he's played in this defense. He knows this defense. He's a veteran presence. Speaking of the Bengals, the Bengals did this last year. The Bengals had two rookie linebackers that they played for most of last season together.

52:50Robert Mays: And you're going to take some lumps. Oh, yeah. You've got two young guys at that position specifically. And so I think that's going to be the decision the Colts have to make. Like, are we going to bet on the more dynamic version of this pairing? Or do we want a little bit more stability knowing that we're sacrificing something by taking one most likely better by keeping him off the field?

53:09James Boyd: Absolutely. One more thing I'll add to that, Robert, is like we've already seen it with some of their decision making. Who's going to wear the green dot? so for the last I would say five practices if not more it's been camp bino the free safety wearing the green dot and again coming into the season it was kind of a foregone conclusion that would be cj allen he missed some time and I do think and this is a credit cj allen he is all ball he's in the playbook he's not falling behind but I think that Lou we talked to him about it last week he said hey I don't want to overload these guys either cam I've had you know players in the past play safety and wear the green dot for me and do fine can cam bynum do this for me alleviate some pressure on those guys so they can play faster freer and just without having like so much going on in their head and then cam is one of the better communicators on this team in the nfl i would argue as well and i think you see that with his personality with all the celebrations and stuff the dude is very good at getting his point across and so is that something that they continue to just lean on going into the season considering like you said a lot of questions at linebacker and just a lot of youth at linebacker too.

54:11Robert Mays: And then youth at safety too, because it seems like AJ Halsey is going to be that guy next to Cam Bynum. Is that pretty much what it's been like since the start? No, so surprisingly, Robert, the first

54:20James Boyd: week or so of training camp, you know, they hit it hard to start. It was Hunter Woller. Okay. The seventh round pick from last year, getting all the first team reps. And he went down with the hamstring injury. And then AJ Halsey got more of the first team reps. And since then, he's kind of been the guy. Gotcha. Okay. And Lou has praised him from day one. I think they just wanted to like not just give it to him. The rookies have to earn it.

54:39Robert Mays: I completely understand that, but he seems to have taken that and just stranglehold on that job. Absolutely.

54:43James Boyd: And then also, the versatility is key, too, because he's another guy who he played deep. He played up in the box. He also, talking to him about his college journey and one thing they did like about him, and you hear different opinions on it with the NIL era and jumping from school to school, every school he jumped to went to level up. And also, he was an all-conference player at whatever school. I think it was like New Mexico, then Houston, and then LSU. He was all SEC last year. And at every stop, he, again, all conference, took the ball away, made plays. And I don't know if you can teach that.

55:14James Boyd: And the guy's nickname is Mr. Give Me That. So with a nickname like that, I think that they want to put him on the field so he can go get the ball and perhaps look up to that nickname.

55:21Robert Mays: And then Justin Wally's in the slot. Yes. And then you have Charveris Ward and Sauce Outside. I mean, that's a chance to – that could be a really, really good cornerback group. Because I think that was the thing that people really didn't appreciate last year at this time. They were so excited about Justin Wally. I know. And so to lose him for the year, and now you're sorting through Zayvon Howard and just the life they had to live on the outside. And so, I mean, Wally, that's a transition. Has he talked a little bit about that? Or has Lou talked a little bit about that in terms of what is different about that and what they've seen from him so far?

55:50James Boyd: Yeah, I think for him, he had a great mentor even last year while he was out and injured in Kenny Moore. Because Kenny Moore had some of those similar type of traits, playing inside, playing outside. And then this year, just being more inside, he was just saying how it's almost not easier but he feels more secure because you're so blessed with the two guys outside like you're not thinking as much because you know okay nine times out of ten number one has got things locked down or number seven Tavarius Ward has got things locked down so um he's looked really good in camp I know I was kind of bummed he didn't play in the preseason opener because he hasn't played an NFL game yet but he continues to be around the ball be a magnet to the ball and you know this Robert like Lou is pretty hard on young guys like he has a reputation for not always playing the young guys.

56:33James Boyd: Whereas with Wally, he has praised him. He's been hard on him like anybody else, but it seems like that trust was built pretty quickly. Even last year in the joint practice with the Ravens, I think Justin Wally picked off Lamar and was making plays in that practice. And that's actually the practice he got hurt in.

56:47Robert Mays: I think those were the practices where they were just like, we got something here. And then you fast forward to this year.

56:51James Boyd: And one benefit, you know, to find a silver lining there is that, yes, he missed all of last year due to injury, but he still was able to be around the scheme, be in all the meetings, learn all the things as far as where he should be mentally. And now it's like, okay, let me catch my body up to where I need to be. So he looks really good. And to me, with their cornerback trio, and Rufin Terrier told me this the other day, he's been with the Colts for forever, you know, his football life. He's 80 years old. As he says, going on 40. He told me, look, this could be their best or most talented trio that I've ever been around.

57:22James Boyd: And this is the guy who's been around this franchise for decades. And so to hear that from him, I'm like, that is very high praise. and so to me it will likely come down to health you know javerius ward saw his garden they played one full game together last year obviously the three of them didn't play any games together because wally was out and so can javerius ward avoid the concussions i do fear for that because you can't really predict what's going to happen when you're out there and then with sauce he just said hey the calf injury was kind of a fluke thing i should be good to go he's fully healthy as well so we'll see 8.

57:48Robert Mays: The corners are really important because I think that this team probably to play their best on defense has to live in a world where they pressure more and they play more man. Yeah, because that second edge spot, that's the one where I'm just like, let's let's hold on to our hats. Yeah, because right now it's what some combination of Arden Key, JT to Amalo, a couple of rookies. Yeah, that's the other spot on defense other than the linebackers. I'd be like, all right, what are we going to get from this?

58:12James Boyd: Yes, I am worried. And I feel like my level of worry has gone down a little bit because DeForest Buckner is back. He had the neck surgery at the end of last year and was ended the year on IR. We were kind of worried about, is he going to be ready for the start of the season? He's been back. And lately, he's looked like Buck. So like that will draw you some double team, draw some attention away from those edge rushers. Rover Stewart's still in the middle plugging things up. So you got those two stalwarts there. I think Laiatu is due for a leap. We'll see if he can get to like that next tier of pass rusher.

58:41James Boyd: A lot of things you hear about with him is just like turning the speed into power, speed to power. Like he has the quickness, has the bend. Sometimes you got to just be a brute force and just get to the quarterback. Bro, bowl guy's over. We'll see if he can do more of that. But yes, the other side, Arden Key is a veteran. But he hasn't really had like a year that makes you think, okay, he's a for sure fire full-time starter. Like he's kind of been a rotational guy throughout his career. And you look at Jalen Tuimolo, they're high on him or continue to tell us that they believe in him. I haven't just seen a lot in camp.

59:10James Boyd: I didn't really see much in the preseason. I do think that for a guy who was a second-round pick, I'm waiting for more splash plays, more moments. Just tell me, okay, what you did at Ohio State, I've seen it. And then you got Caden Curry coming in. You got George Gump. Those guys, again, they looked really good, I thought, in the preseason, but they're going against threes and fours who may not be on the field coming NFL Sunday.

59:30Robert Mays: I think they're going to have to rely on those guys, though. I think those guys are going to be in the mix. It's funny because they did have a first-round pick. to not have a first round pick. They are relying on this draft class in a big, big way to, I mean, you got two starters that you picked in the second and third round and then the pass rushers you got later, they're going to have to be in the mix. And so they need a lot of stuff to go right.

59:51James Boyd: So we were going through this the other day. If you look at their defense, let's say start two linebackers that are rookies. They haven't done to play NFL snap. Oh, three. Yeah.

59:59Robert Mays: I didn't even think about Bencher being when they mix two.

1:00:01James Boyd: Justin Wally hasn't played NFL snap. Yep. AJ Halsey hasn't played NFL snap. These are guys who could start for you and be very vital to your defense. And then you mentioned rotating that other defensive end spot. And Chris Beller told us back at the owners meetings that they did try to get Trey Hendrickson. And it seemed like that was going to happen until the craziness with the Ravens and the Max Crosby trade, no trade. And then they swoop in and get Trey Hendrickson. That seemed to me putting the pieces together. That was their plan. And they really didn't have a great backup plan to that. Now you can criticize the whole process of like, okay, what do you mean?

1:00:33James Boyd: Like other guys were available. They just weren't able to get them and now you're banking on some guys I guess coming together and being collectively pretty good or solid but I just think that when you don't have a dude on the edge it could get really really difficult for you. Lou might have to turn it up this year.

1:00:48Robert Mays: Lou might have to turn it up a little bit this year.

1:00:49James Boyd: Trust those guys you paid on the back end. Look Cam Bynum's highly paid. Sauce Gardner, highly paid. Traveris Ward, highly paid. All of them have accolades so live up to it.

1:00:58Robert Mays: That might have to be it. James Boyd sincerely appreciate the time sir. Always great to chat with you. We'll lose again very soon.

1:01:03James Boyd: Yes sir.

1:01:05Robert Mays: joining us now from allen park michigan just before a an evening detroit lions training camp practice it's our lions right i thought i called pouncey how you doing man doing great man i'm uh i'm excited for the night practice tonight should be fun yeah there's been a couple that i've hit over the last few weeks there was the steelers did one at a local high school in latrobe oh so it was like under the lights on a saturday night which was really fun it was just like it was a very like americana yeah like everyone walking downtown and like the small town america like almost like a high school Friday night, but it was like a Saturday NFL football practice.

1:01:36Robert Mays: That was definitely one of my favorite stops on the trip so far, which is really, really cool. Let's start with just the state of the Detroit Lions defense. That's just where I want to go with this. I'm sure for people who have not been following this every single day, just on a very basic level, I want you to lay this out for me. Who is healthy? Who is playing? like where are we at with the potential week one lions defensive personnel? Because for me, that might be like the most important question associated with this team as we think about what they can accomplish this year. Yeah. I mean, I'm going to avoid the secondary cause I don't think anyone's healthy back there.

1:02:12Just starting with that. You got Jack Campbell and all pro you got in Hudson all pro. That's probably a good place to start for the healthy guys. Hutch looks great out here. I mean, I think he had three sacks in practice yesterday, just watching him from afar, kind of keeping close on him. But Jack Campbell looks great. Those two dudes are kind of the anchors of this defense right now. Ali McNeil, coming back from probably half a season he played last year, coming back from that torn ACL the year before. Looked like he was still shaking off the rust last year when he came back. I think his first game back, he was great, and then everyone assumed that he would play at that level all year.

1:02:48Some inconsistencies. He said it was kind of a mental thing. Just wasn't sure if he was 100 % back then. And he said he feels closer to himself. So he's just been practicing all of camp. He has. That's awesome. So if he's playing like he did in 2024, that's a really important piece that this defense was missing last year. You know, you've got some new pieces here, like Tyleek Williams, first round pick from last year. He's going to enter his first year as a full time starter. You know, DJ Reed is back. He dealt with a hamstring injury last year. He's dealing with a groin injury this year. So we'll see if he's actually out there.

1:03:21But if he's healthier this year, you need a CB1 because your secondary is looking pretty rough right now.

1:03:27Robert Mays: So other than that, we have DJ Reed. The other outside cornerback spot is what? Rakusin? It seems like it right now. Okay. So Rakusin at that other outside corner spot, which he was here last year. But the safety spots, obviously, we're still waiting on Brian Branch or Kirby Joseph. Is there any sort of clarity on what the timeline for either of those guys looks like? You know, something that was a little bit surprising to us that Dan mentioned kind of early on in training camp is that he expects Brian Branch to return to practice late August, early September. And that felt like a bit of an aggressive timeline when we first heard it.

1:03:58But we've seen him kind of out here working on, you know, they have the hill over in the back of the facility. We call it Mount Patricia. Mount Patricia put that in years ago. So he's been working on the hill over there, getting some work in. He looks like big, like upper body wise. Obviously, couldn't do much stuff with the leg. But he looks like he's almost ready to go. We see him running around, looks pretty smooth. so i i don't want to put that past him now like i was a little bit like man we're not gonna see this dude till like late october at the earliest now i'm thinking maybe late september early october which sounds even insane still but it's that's what's happened i mean like that's what's

1:04:33Robert Mays: happening right now i was in indy yesterday and just the idea that daniel jones is like wait he's ready to go right what or like ozzy trapello is back from a torn patellar tendon in like seven months like we're in a brave new world when it comes to the timeline with this kind of stuff and And with Branch, I mean, I had the same thought. It's like, oh, man, if he's going to miss a third of the season, what does that mean? But we've seen so many examples this offseason of guys being back so much quicker than we might have expected. And it sounds like he might be the next one. Yeah, very true. I mean, look, I wouldn't put anything past Brian Branch.

1:05:02That dude's a freak. So if anyone can come back, he can come back and play at a high level like he never missed a beat. The more concerning of that duo back at safety is Kirby Joseph. Now, he has been dealing with a knee issue that everyone around the team has been kind of mum about. They won't really talk about what it is, which leads us a lot of us to believe it's, you know, maybe chronic in nature, degenerative, an issue like that where it just might linger throughout his career. You know, I think at first flared up maybe last year. So he wasn't practicing a lot last year. He played through it.

1:05:33Wasn't 100 percent was kind of grinding out these games, leaving, coming back. The start and stop nature was not good for him. So Lions eventually just shut him down, tried to get him healthy, made a couple attempts to come back. We'd see him like a Wednesday, middle of the week. He practiced and we wouldn't see him the rest of the week. They rule him out. So that was kind of how his season went last year. This year, we thought, OK, a full offseason rest might help. We thought maybe he'd be ready for the start of training camp. They put him on pup. Still haven't seen him yet. He has done some on field work, like just off to the side, kind of like Branch.

1:06:05But he's the one I'm a little bit more worried about. Now, Campbell did say he's on the Brian Branch timeline, so that would put him in a similar track. But I think for him, it's just like, OK, you're back, but is that knee still in pain? Like, how much can you tolerate at this point and how long is it going to be good for? I think that's the bigger question with him, whereas Branch, when he's back, you assume he's going to be close, if not, you know, maybe 75, 80 percent with him. I just I just really don't know with Kirby.

1:06:32Robert Mays: And if it's not going to be Kirby, are we looking at Christian? Is he in? Is that who's who's been working in there when those guys have been hurt? Yeah, I mean, just the two safeties when they've been out. It's been Chuck Clark and Christian Izian back there. I think they like Avanti Maddox as well. Those three are kind of rotating. I think Izian, they like him more at nickel. So it might be Maddox and Chuck Clark. Because nickel is another question, right? I mean, Roger McCreary is here, but he signed for, I think, close to the minimum. I mean, it's the amount of moving pieces in the secondary from the outside.

1:06:59Robert Mays: Like you deal with this every day, but for me, it's hard to keep track of. It's hard for me, too. I mean, it's just like a whack-a-mole situation. It really is. So I think they're still figuring that out. That's what this time is for. We've even seen rookie fifth round pick Keith Abney, like just yesterday, getting some reps with the first team at nickel. OK, I think they're trying to give him some reps, see what he can do. Give more of a workload. I really liked him coming out of the draft, so I wouldn't be surprised if he works himself into the mix at some point here. But yeah, a lot of moving parts, you know, and it's Rakeshaw.

1:07:26He can play some corner on the outside. I think he's better as a nickel, honestly. So he's a Mizzou guy. Shout out to Mizzou.

1:07:32Robert Mays: He was working with the twos right during the during the preseason game, though, which is like it's one of the first times we've seen him. right he's been banged up a lot but he was working with the twos even with all the concerns and injuries they have that was notable to me when i went back and i was watching i was like oh man that edis strength draw with the second team so he's out there but not even not in the mix to be a starter even considering all the other stuff they're dealing with yeah he began camp you know we talked about rocky scene he's a veteran he's such a steady guy for them like they know what they have in him i think they're trying to give other guys some looks so when tram which when training camp began we saw a lot of ennis with the first team defense just trot him out there see what he can do as training camp has progressed he's kind of moved to the second tier second team defense they've moved some other guys up nick whiteside a guy that i did he played in that legion of whom game last year against the bucks and was great for them but we didn't really see him much after that he's kind of stuck around and and campbell is kind of you know keeping an eye on him he says you know he makes a play pretty much every day that he watches him so you know we're talking about these guys he's kind of like bottom of the depth chart guys as players that might have to play significant time this year.

1:08:33If there's injuries, guys that you have to rely on for depth. And it's a little bit dire right now. All right.

1:08:38Robert Mays: So that's all the stuff that's worth considering in the secondary. Let's move to the front seven that's healthier, but still feel like there are some spots where things need to be sorted out. That other edge spot seems to me like that's probably the most unsettled member of the front seven as it currently stands. What does that rotation look like? And who do you expect to see most on the other side of Aiden Hutchinson for a majority of the season. Yeah, I think it's just going to kind of be a rotation. It depends on the situation. Like we've seen a lot of Tyler Lacey out there opposite of Hutch.

1:09:06Okay. Starters are out there. Surprisingly, that's a throwback.

1:09:09Robert Mays: I've not heard thought about Tyler Lacey in quite a while. They like him in that big end role, man. They really do. He's like their power and, and, you know, he's going to play out a lot of early downs, I think kind of run situations. And then they've got some change ups there. You know, they have DJ want him that they signed. He was with the Panthers last year. They have Derek Moore, the second round pick. Ahmed Hassanin, surprisingly, he's a 2025 six round pick, but he has really come on strong in a second year. I was really impressed with him. He actually sacked Joe Burr on the preseason game.

1:09:39They've got some options here for that edge room. It's going to be a little bit matchup dependent. Not the sexiest names, obviously, but that's kind of how it's been here over the years. They just rely so much on Aiden Hutchinson. That dude never comes off the field. So they're going to rely on him to get the pressure and the sacks and everyone else just has to clean up and do the role.

1:09:58Robert Mays: So with all of this stuff that feels like we either don't have answers, they're lingering questions or the guys in and out of the lineup in your mind, what are like realistic expectations for what this defense can look like in year two with Calvin Shepard? Yeah, it's tough. Like if those safeties aren't out there, that changes kind of how I view this defense, because in a lot of ways they've kind of built this defense through those safeties and what they can do with Brian Branch kind of being this all around Romer player. We see him in the box we see him back deep we can see him blitzing like he can do it all and then kirby joseph is just a center fielder and he takes away entire halves of the defense when he's out there at 100 if those two guys aren't you have to wonder what is avante maddox going to look like back there what is chuck clark going to look like back there um do you feel like you have um the help back there to play as much man coverage as the lions have played over the years you have to change that up a little bit um kevin shepherd's talked about playing more nickel this year um instead of you They're heavy 4-3 base defense.

1:10:51I think that'll be a change. There's a lot of moving parts right now.

1:10:55Robert Mays: Even that is just like last year was probably their best personnel group. Because you have Anzalone. Now he's gone. The sheer amount of moving parts is the right way to put it. The sheer amount of moving parts here and the different considerations is just wild. It really is. I think their pass rush will be better. I think one thing that was really lacking last year was an interior rush. Obviously, Aleem not being 100%. You had guys like DJ Reader and Roy Lopez that were playing a lot of snaps. They're better against the run than they are rushing the passer. So I think getting a lean back, getting Levi Onzerike back, who missed all last year with the torn ACL.

1:11:25Dan Campbell said he's like what he's seen from him. That's great. And they're also trying to get some more speed rushes, sub-package guys like Skylar Gill Howard, one of their draft picks this year. He's a former linebacker, played at Texas Tech. Kind of this, I think, sawed-off player is kind of how Dan Campbell would describe him. But, man, he's got a motor, and it never runs cold. So they're trying to get some more interior rush. I think that'll help the defensive line. That'll help the linebackers. That'll help the secondary. But there's just so much that we still need to see for me to feel confident in this defense and where they're at right now.

1:11:58Robert Mays: Let's go to the other side of the ball. You have a remade offensive line that you could easily start talking yourself into. Another year forward from the young guards. Enough that you got from Rattledge last year where it's like, oh, if you can just refine it a little bit. You draft a right tackle in the first round. You move your all-pro right tackle to left tackle. You sign Cade Mays in free agency. the physicality upgrade that you were going to get from Glasgow to him. Just, oh man, we can be cooking again on the ground. And then like that, now you miss the big ass center that you signed in free agency for foreseeable future.

1:12:29Robert Mays: And now we're dealing with moving pieces on the offensive line. Yeah, man. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of been the story around here. Like since, since the off season, like I really thought when they signed Cade Mays and drafted Blake Miller, I'm like, okay, it might take some time to gel, but I like these moves. Like they really had to address that offensive line. The offense was still, you know, top five in scoring last year was just a very inefficient bunch and they weren't really fooling anyone. So they didn't have the horses to kind of do what they wanted to do last year offensively. And so I thought it all started with that offensive line.

1:12:58And, you know, you hear them talk about Cade Mays and they're like, man, we really need a center that could anchor and pass protection. You know, he's big, he's powerful, he's strong. He can move people. This is what we needed. I miss that Frank Ragnall life. Absolutely, man. Like they all did. Yeah. And when you look at this draft, like there were a lot of, you know, zone centers, like fast speedy guys that can move people that can move in space but there weren't a lot of the powerful guys that they were looking for so they went and addressed that free agency and i think you know early on training camp when you see the guys out there you saw the vision of what this could look like and so for dan campbell announced that kade may is out with a broken wrist um i heard eight to ten weeks that could put him maybe at like mid-october maybe he's back in week seven i think we have a week six by week seven would a return week seven would put him back for the Packers game at home.

1:13:46So maybe that's a little bit optimistic, but if he can be back for that, you're talking about those first six games, it's a pretty favorable schedule. So I think they should be able to get over that, but they did trade for juice scrubs. It's off season. He's part of that Dave Montgomery trade.

1:13:59Robert Mays: Think about that. I mean, it seemed like a throw in in the moment and now how glad are you that that was just like something in your back pocket that if you need to go to him, now you're going to have to, it just, when you did it, it's just like, ah, we'll throw juice scrugs in along with the fourth round pick you don't think much about it now it seems really important yeah and i think that was part of the idea at the time like they understood they were kind of caught flat-footed when frank retired last year it's like okay we'll move graham to center even though graham doesn't want to play center he hates his position um we'll play this like second year you know fifth sixth round pick christian mahogany um and a lot those guys were unchallenged because they just didn't have anyone else so the big thing that dan talked about all offseason was building competition i believe the first time he mentioned that was like right after the season, right after the finale against the Bears.

1:14:42He was talking about things he wanted to do in training camp in January and just addressing the lack of competition that they had last year. And so this year, you're seeing Christian Mahogany play well into that preseason game. This guy was a starter for them last year. They're making him earn everything that he wants this year. They brought in Ben Bartsch, a veteran that they really like. He hasn't been out here a ton because he's been dealing with a foot injury. But when he's back, I think he's really going to challenge for that spot. They've really tried to increase that competition and depth so that when they do get caught like they did last year, they'll be ready for it this time around.

1:15:17Robert Mays: Even Larry Borum is like a capable swing tackle. You would hope that if one of those two guys misses time. So the offensive line personnel wise is the thing that needs to be sorted out. Do we think that it's going to be juice Scruggs at center? Do we think that McLaughlin has a chance to push for that job in the meantime while we're waiting for Cade Mays? Or is it just you you think Drew Scruggs' job to lose? It's actually kind of interesting because Sunday's practice, Tate Ratlidge got a lot of reps at center. Oh, man. Here we go again. And I wasn't expecting that because, you know, look, I think they tried the Tate Ratlidge Center experiment last year and it didn't go great.

1:15:53I think it lasted three days. And Dan's like, enough of this.

1:15:56Robert Mays: I was here on day one. So, you know, they moved in the red guard and He kind of settled in there, and I think that was best for him as a rookie. But Tate's kind of told some of us behind the scenes, like, you know, I'll do whatever the team wants. But he obviously likes right guard more than the center. He just hasn't done the center position before. But we saw him out there, and he was getting a lot of first-team reps yesterday. A couple balls in the dirt, but, you know, it was raining. I'll give him a pass for that. But I think they're going to continue that at least a little bit just to see what they have.

1:16:23And if not, then it's most likely going to be Juice at center, Tate at right guard, and then probably either Christian Mahogany or Ben Bartsch at left guard. And we know the two tackles with Blake and Panay.

1:16:34Robert Mays: The big other question about this offense and how it's going to be potentially different, we have a new offensive coordinator, right? And this is the first time in the Dan Campbell era here that we've gone outside of the circle of trust to find the offensive coordinator. Because I think the entire point, Ben Johnson was on the staff elevated when Anthony Wynn got, let's say, moved aside. Generously moved aside. Yeah. Then Ben Johnson leaves. You bring back Johnny Morton from Denver because he was a part of this thing as they built it from day one. We all know how that went. Not as well as you might hope.

1:17:06Robert Mays: Thankfully, you have a Dan Campbell in the building where if you have to pivot to something else midseason, they were able to and they were still a very good offense. So this offseason, now they look outside of this place for not only the offensive coordinator, but they bring in Mike Kafka as well. And so I'm just curious if you've talked to Dan, as you've talked to people in the building, what was the thought process behind the Petsing choice? And how do you feel like this may look a little bit different than the offenses that we've seen here so far because they have some new ideas being injected into this?

1:17:36Yeah. First of all, I love the thoroughness of the search that led to Petsing and Kafka in a way. Um, you know, Dan really cast a wide external net. Like, as we know, the year before, just kind of, you know, dug into the well of, you know, Dan Campbell. He had Johnny Mo's number. Confidence. Yep, absolutely. Um, but this year it really felt like, you know, strategic in a way. Like, I need to hear these outside voices. Let's see what we can do differently. We already know what we can do. Um, we already know what we're all about, but if we can take our talent and what we do best and kind of merge it with someone else's philosophy, maybe that's the best way to kind of look inward and then while also you know casting a wide net and looking outward so he interviewed a lot of candidates you know a lot of people wanted mike mcdaniel over here and i think he would have been awesome here but for dan he was like it's not about getting the best guys but getting the right fit the right guy and i think he thought drew petting was the right guy because you look at his past look at his coaching influences who he's been with kevin stepanski these you know uh run heavy offenses um that set up play action well uh that will play Jared Goff strengths.

1:18:41He's him and Mike Kafka are ideas guys. I think that was something that was missing last year, some creativity. So I think when you look at the totality of what he brings to the table, he fits a lot of what Dan wants, but also he's a really good communicator. I think that's what I've heard the most about him. He is. Just being able to teach, you know, the starting quarterback that's been here for a decade or the undrafted rookie free agent and teach it in a way that everyone can understand. So that's the one thing that players and coaches mentioned about him. And I think that was much needed after last year.

1:19:13Robert Mays: In terms of personality and, again, that conveying of information, it's very different going from Johnny Morton to Drew Pesce. That's all I'll say. It's very different than how those two people convey information. I mean, listen, we could talk about it. I think Jared is such a smart guy. Not just Jared, but a lot of guys on this offense. Players can see through something that's not working. And the message has to be strong. And these guys are going to ask a lot of questions. And if you don't have the answers for them, it's easy to kind of tune them out. And if you're not open to the questions themselves.

1:19:45Robert Mays: Exactly. And I think that is, do you want the dialogue to be a two-way street? And I think that that's really important when you have a veteran offense like this that should have input in how this is going to go and should have questions. I think that it's not even just do you have the right answers. It's do you want them to be asking the questions at all? And I would almost guarantee that Drew Pezzin wants them to be asking the questions. And he said that openly. He said there are times where he'll come up with an idea and he'll text Jared about it late at night, driving home from work. Jared will do the same.

1:20:16That's what this group needs. They need a guy that can communicate with his players, that wants those answers. They're working together. It's a team. It's not just my way or the highway. I think there were some of that last year that kind of rubbed some players the wrong way. And it seems like they're moving past that and they've got the right guy for that in place now with Drew Pezzin.

1:20:33Robert Mays: has it looked any different? Are there elements to it that you feel like are unique or that have kind of opened your eyes a little bit? Yeah. I mean, just some of the eye candy things in practice, you see like most of the motions, the, you know, just the movement of all the talent that he has. I think that's, you know, I think it was a little bit lost in years past. You know, when Ben Johnson was here, one of the things that he was so good at was sequencing plays and setting things up and making everything look the same, even out of different formations. And I think that was a little bit missed last year.

1:21:01Obviously there are other factors, like the offensive line wasn't great sam laporta gets hurt late in the year your offense isn't going to look the same but um now they have their full assortment of talent out here and you have a coach that really knows how to use it and is excited to use all these pieces and and you know explore mismatches um that's that's what's looked the most different to me but you know we won't know for sure until the game start who's really stood out over the first couple weeks i've loved what i've seen from sam laporta honestly um and we know petzing has a background he was kind of like at the front of that 13 personnel wave in Arizona before McVay and some of these other guys

1:21:35Robert Mays: got even in Cleveland when he was a tight end coach in Cleveland they were a 13 personnel team in their first season there together yeah I mean that was when they had Harrison Bryant Austin Hooper and David Njoku all together and so we were in a 13 personnel world now Drew Petsing was born in the dark he knows that place out of necessity necessity you kind of had to do it back then but um yeah I mean I and look I don't think the Lions are going to be heavy 13 personnel you know Petsing the smart guy he's going to play to strengths and they have some really good receivers here, but I'm excited for what he can do for Sam Laporta.

1:22:03We saw what he did with Trey McRide in Arizona. I think Laporta, he looks healthy. He looks like himself. I think there was a play early in training camp where he kind of got suplexed in a rep and he's coming off the back injury. So we're all a little bit worried, like how's he going to bounce up? Man, he was back on his feet, laughing, ready to do it again. So he looks back to himself. Jared looks great. I mean, I'm listening to the obvious now, but I'm always impressed with Jared's ball placement and these practices and the team drills. Him and St. Brown have such an undeniable chemistry. Jamell looks like he's taking a leap.

1:22:36A guy that hasn't kind of come around so far yet for me is Isaac DeSlau.

1:22:40Robert Mays: I was going to ask you how that's gone because I've heard that it's been a little bit shaky. It has. And the one thing with him is we see him in these one-on-one reps in practice early on. He's going against these physical DBs. It was kind of an issue for him at Arkansas. You just didn't really see it much. being able to you know defeat press man coverage at the line of scrimmage and like be physical at the line of scrimmage and win um hasn't been doing that a ton and the separation really hasn't been there um but the one thing that we do know he can do is he can make these contested catches and they ran a situational drill at the end of practice yesterday um on sunday and jared i think was fourth and 12 uh lobs it up to to slaw he changed the route at the line of scrimmage said go run a fade.

1:23:20I got you. Threw it up to him. He came down with it over Ennis Rakeshaw. So we know that that's in his bag. I think he's just such a young player that is still so new to the receiver position. He was a quarterback in high school. So he's still coming along, but blinds don't need him to be like this star receiver right away. He's essentially the fifth, fourth, fifth option in this offense right now. So I think he'll be afforded to kind of learn on the job, but he's still going to be a red zone threat, jump ball threat, and a big piece of this offense.

1:23:44Robert Mays: What is the sense of what the workload is going to look like for Jameer Gibbs? He's just going to get an insane amount of touches. I mean, it seems like we're probably trending in that direction. You know, it's tough for me to answer that because Dan is so – like he comes from that New Orleans tree, and they had some really good duos in the backfield with those Saints teams. And so when they traded Dan Montgomery, I'm like, okay, they have to have someone to replace him. They go and get Isaiah Pacheco, who I think can be like a productive number two in short yard situation, the power back stuff.

1:24:13We know how hard he runs. but the way they're talking about Gibbs makes me think he's not going to leave the field much like even when he's not at running back I think they're going to play him a lot at receiver moving the slot just move him around making this chess piece and I know they've kind of talked about that in years past but I think they think he's at a point now where he's proven himself capable of you know being that guy that multi versatile offensive weapon that just never has to leave the field and I worry sometimes I hear that because you know he is 5 '9 he's a smaller back but But he takes contact very well.

1:24:44He gets up. He bounces off guys. Hasn't had a lot of injury issues. But you just never know with the guy whose size. So some of that worries me. But I do think they're going to rely on him and kind of use him because they just paid him all this money. You might as well.

1:24:58Robert Mays: I mean, you look at it. God bless Isaiah Pacheco. But I think I would want Jameer Gibbs on the field about 90 % of the time. Colton Ponce, always great to chat with you, sir. Sincerely appreciate the time. We'll do it again very soon. Thanks for having me. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. If you're anything like me, you know you'd do just about anything for your pet, which is a nice sentiment, but also a scary one. Because if you've ever owned a pet, you know they run on their own logic. They jump first, they think later, they ask questions, never. It's part of what makes them so lovable, but it's also how you end up with surprise vet visits you didn't see coming.

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1:28:19Robert Mays: We are here now with a Vikings writer at The Athletic, Alec Lewis. How are you doing, sir? I'm great, Robert. We're like three weeks into camp. The quarterback competition is settled, I believe, for this era of the Minnesota Vikings. I think we're good here. Yeah. Yeah. But I've told people like that this job is a cyclical nature of who the quarterback is going to be and then how it goes and then who the quarterback is going to be again. So at some point, maybe that'll end for this organization. But I'm good. I'm happy to be here. Happy to be on the show. Let's start with the quarterback competition.

1:28:54was it ever a quarterback competition um I never felt like there was any chance that Kyler Murray was not going to be the starter but I would say the intent for Kevin O 'Connell uh specifically um was to maximize all players in that room and the uh philosophy of using a quarterback competition to do that I think was the strategy internally but you know this Robert I mean when that signing first happened you talk to people within the league you talk to people inside this building and it was pretty clear coming off what the season was last year for a team that has not won a playoff game since 2019 for a team that has Justin Jefferson who's 27 in his prime and hasn't won a playoff game like they their priorities were winning now and so the quarterback that gave them the chance to do that was going to be the guy and that seemed to be Kyler from the outset

1:29:48Robert Mays: I think there's something on both sides of this issue that I want to ask you about. I'm curious about right now. If you're that offensive staff, it's all sunshine and rainbows because you have a quarterback who can do so much more than the guy last year could. But it's not as if Kyler Murray is a player without limitations. Correct. And so let's actually look at that side of it. Like it's not going to be a play. I think there's a temptation now to be like, oh, average quarterback play, Justin Jefferson, Kevin O 'Connell, like we're going to the moon. and but that's I think that that's not necessarily the reality so as you've talked to people in this building about what those limitations for what this version of the offense could be in the passing game and how they have to work around those limitations what are those in your mind yeah I mean I definitely think you just start formationally Kyler Murray has played predominantly out of the shotgun this is not to say he can't play from under center and execute some of the keeper boot stuff, but just by the nature, I think of his stature playing from the shotgun to be able to see the three levels of the defense is an adaptation that the Vikings, I believe are in the process of already making.

1:30:52I think from there, ensuring that you limit interior pressure, because that's another element for him where again, just by the nature of his size, it can affect his ability to process That's the middle of the field. And so it has been interesting in this camp to see the type types of creativity that they have deployed and toggled through. They you know this and those listening, I'm sure do. They brought in Frank Smith, who is the Miami Dolphins offensive coordinator, and he has worked closely with Kevin O 'Connell to incorporate some of their gun pistol, you know, motion type of operation with their run.

1:31:34game. So the question for me, and it's really an interesting conversation of like, how do you take all of this and chisel it down to a world in which it is synergistic and it is refined in terms of what the philosophy is on a week to week basis and game planning for the defenses that they're going to face?

1:31:56Robert Mays: I think even if we can acknowledge that Kyler is an imperfect player, the past game, I only have so many reservations about how good it's going to be. I think that it will be explosive. I think that there will be a certain level of quality we reach on that side of it. The entire conversation all offseason, you just wrote a big story about this. And it's something we've gone back years and talked about here, where the run game is the thing that has held this team back offensively, even when other things have been going well and when the quarterback play has been solid. And I think that there were years where I'd be here and we would be talking to people about, what is the idea about how this is going to improve?

1:32:33Robert Mays: What are the things that you guys were looking at in the offseason? And the answers were always kind of wishy-washy about why it would be different. And so them going out this offseason and truly getting to the core of, we want to play a certain way offensively on the ground and try to go get guys they felt like could unlock that, this to me feels like the most drastic, definitive choice they have made for how they're going to get better in that specific area. That's exactly right. The way I've described it is like they actionably did something like with the foundation of the run game. In past years, it's been we're going to sign Josh Oliver, a blocking tight end.

1:33:13We're going to shuffle interior offensive linemen. We're going to swap Dalvin Cook for Alexander Madison in the hope of efficiency. Like there's been a lot of we're going to bring in Aaron Jones, a lot of half measures. We're going to talk a lot about play style. There have been so many dynamics, but I think the Frank Smith thing we talked about, Keith Carter was the assistant offensive line coach and his history obviously comes with a certain level of intensity that I believe they wanted to instill in that offensive line group. And like I just got off the practice field where I talked to Brian O 'Neill, Blake Brandel, Will Fries, and it does feel like they are very bought in and their standard is really high for what they want to accomplish.

1:33:55So I've said, I think this is to your point, the most actionable change. Now, my question is when it's week three and you're running into a wall and you've got to make adjustments and you've got to remain committed to it. That's when the rubber will meet the road of does all of this shift and commitment really play itself out when it needs to.

1:34:15Robert Mays: There's a lot of different layers to this that I think are interesting. The first one is that you can correct me in the timing here, but my assumption is Frank Smith was hired before Kyler Murray was signed. Right. That's correct. That's correct. It was probably back in January, February. Bingo. And so what I think is interesting about this is that Frank Smith come Miami run game is was its own unique animal in the sense that we're an outside zone team from the gun and pistol. No one else is really doing that. A lot of the other outsides or the wide zone teams we've seen over the last 10, 20 years that it's existed are mostly under center teams.

1:34:49Robert Mays: And so the idea that you would bring over that, but now you have a quarterback who in theory can be added to the run game in a way that Tua never could be. So that almost feels like an accidental thing that has become a part of this that in the moment, I'm sure it wasn't even on their minds, but now it's another layer that if they wanted to, they could theoretically explore. And you will see like in these training and practices, and I don't know how much I should or can say about scheme stuff, but like zone read stuff is a thing that is vivid. And you know this, like how you can occupy edges with the keeper game and Kyler Murray.

1:35:25Like that's where I think I've said this now for months here locally. Like if you want to be an optimist about what this offense and team can be capable of, I think this is the most important conversation, because if you can be really effective, explosive with the ground game, What does that mean for how defenses try to defend Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison? And so then you're really working within, you know, potential advantages. So it's really interesting. But again, like my question comes to you're doing a lot. You're you've done a lot in the passing game. There's a lot of verbiage. There's a lot of motions.

1:35:59You'll see fullback motions out here. There's a lot going on. They draft the fullback in the fifth round, I believe. Like he's going to be a part of the plans. Yes. And and and teammates will rave about how quickly he's already taken to the system, which is very positive. But there's a lot underneath the umbrella of what the Vikings offense has been and can be. And so if they can get to a place where the identity is clear, I think that will speak volumes to the job. This staff kind of has done in reorganizing this thing into their fifth year.

1:36:29Robert Mays: If you're trying to figure out and paint a picture of why the Vikings will be better and why this will feel different, The quarterback is obviously the place that you have to start. But the other part is just with the entire offensive line. This is a group last year that was banged up. They played a ton of different offensive line combinations. But to me, the most important consideration with that is even when the left tackle was playing, he was not right. And based on everything that I heard today is that he not only has taken to what they're asking him to do in the run game. He loves it. That's right.

1:37:00Robert Mays: And apparently he is just he looks incredible right now. So the idea that you could add functional quarterback play and a guy that I think they believe can be an all pro level left tackle. There are reasons to believe that beyond going to the source and making sure you're making an actionable choice about the run game. There are pieces you're adding to this group that are going to make it feel a lot better than it was last year. Yeah. I mean, the Christian Darasol Odyssey of last year was a journey. Like I recall going into week one in Chicago that night. I believe he did a little bit of a pregame workout, didn't play that game.

1:37:37And then from then on, it was just, you know, he's doing pregame warmups. Is he in? He's in. Then eight snaps in. He's out. Then you're in London. Is he going to play? I mean, it was just it was a journey, really. But there have been so many flashes over the course of the time I've covered this team where when he is at his best, it's pretty dynamic. And then you add in the fact that, OK, he's next to left guard and Donovan Jackson, former first round pick. What if he takes a step? You put those guys next to Josh Oliver, who is a really good run blocker at tight end. What is the possibility? And again, like I do think this is where optimism can lie with this offense.

1:38:15And so we'll just kind of I just am really looking forward to seeing come week one. if the money is put where a lot of the words have been spoken with this group and with that phase of this team.

1:38:28Robert Mays: And the ground specifically, before we move on, I think that the running back mix will be a question that people have as we're really leaning into fantasy drafts here. My assumption would be that Jordan Mason carries a lot of the work here, where Aaron Jones is even more of a changeup than he's been over the last couple of years. Is that your sense? Yeah, I mean, Jordan Mason has looked really, really good. he looks in better shape this year than he was last year and I thought all the advanced metrics and I'm talking like missed tackle force rate some of that stuff you know his like mile per hour hit last year was pretty solid so the question for Jordan Mason is and has been you know can he do the things that Aaron Jones can do from a pass protection standpoint from a pass catching standpoint and Kevin O 'Connell you know this Robert and the listeners do too like he's big on who can he trust within his offense so for jordan mason to get the amount of snaps that he's probably deserving of he's gonna have to prove that he can do it in all of the other facets they expect at that position if you're trying to build the best case scenario about the vikings i think the temptation would be well if the offense can get to a place where they are definitively above average they're a fringe top 10 malfance maybe even a little bit better than that you pair that with a defense that's been top five over the last couple of years, do you have a team that not only can win the division, but can be like a real contender in the NFC?

1:39:48Robert Mays: My hesitation with that framing is, how much faith do we have in the defense to be able to hold up that side of it? So what would you say to that? Like, what have you seen so far? What have you heard about a defense that, we know we trust the play caller and what the ideas have been, but there's been a lot of turnover here, and are the players they're relying on capable of getting this defense back to that sort of level. Yeah, what I've seen so far is a lot of blitzing. But no, I do think like I listen to you guys do the draft, you and Dave and Derek, and it is like this defense continuously, you know, the listeners know this because they're smart.

1:40:27Like defenses rarely are just sticky year over year over year. But Brian Flores and this staff have been able to maintain a level of consistency see within the chaos that they orchestrate every single Sunday. And yeah, they are relying on a lot of youth, a lot of inexperience, both on the front and the back end. And so a question that I have is like, can you blitz your way to preventing opposing offenses from hitting, you know, deep vertical concepts down the field? I mean, it is just like, you know, they drafted Caleb banks in the first round as a defensive tackle from florida coming off the foot surgeries um it feels to me like he's got a pretty lengthy runway to have a lot of involvement with this defense so

1:41:12Robert Mays: you're relying on i think it's important for people that aren't here every day to know that because i think there's been some thought that oh he's looked great he'll be an impactful player i think setting some real expectations about what we'll get from caleb banks in year one is something that i want to hear from you because i think i when i got here and kind of heard what the drumbeat had been about what his campus looked like. I think it's important to set that with people. Yeah. And it's not to say that he can't, I mean, you, you see him out there. I mean, he is an, he just hasn't played a lot of football, right?

1:41:40Four games, I believe since 2024. And then again, you add two pretty major foot surgeries for a guy who needs to create power from the spring. Right. So I just think like, it's probably going to take a little bit for him to continue to progress and find his footing. So you're then relying on the interior of the defensive line on guys like Jalen Redman, who's done a great job in recent years and probably still underrated within the league to just the common fan. Levi Drake Rodriguez, a former seventh round pick from Texas A &M Commerce. Ty Ingram Dawkins, who was, I believe, a third or fourth round pick from Georgia.

1:42:17I mean, you're relying on those guys. And then Dallas Turner on the edge who flashes explosiveness. And then on the back end, you don't have Harrison Smith, at least for right now. and so the safety room feels like it's Josh Metellus, Theo Jackson, Jay Ward, the undrafted rookie Jacob Thomas. I mean, you're really patching together things at a lot of spots, which I think adds stress to the scheme to just lift you to certain heights. And if they do it again, then, I mean, we're going to be sitting here next year and you can't really poke any holes in it. But I do think, or I should say, I don't think it's a complete guarantee the way that probably some feel on the outside that you just penciled them in as a top five defense.

1:42:59It's just too hard to guarantee that on a, on a consistent basis.

1:43:03Robert Mays: I think you could probably make an argument that Dominique orange is going to be a more important defensive rookie defensive lineman for this team or more involved than Caleb banks might even be early. I think that's fair. Yeah. Especially early. I think, I mean, and Dominique orange, big citrus has shown more range in the backfield than I probably expected. I need to go to Dane Brugler and probably talked to him about that but yeah I I mean but again like the I go back to to like we're talking about all these spots the depth is a question the depth is a question at again safety defensive line linebacker I mean Blake Cashman I still think is one of the more underrated off ball linebackers in the NFL but he struggled through injuries during during certain stints in his career and the depth behind a guy like him you're now talking about a rookie like Jake Gold day or a fourth year player and Ivan pace.

1:43:51So that's another area where you're, you're just relying a lot on durability and youth and maybe it can go right. But, um, you know, probabilities are a certain thing too.

1:44:03Robert Mays: With Dallas Turner, it feels like him taking a step forward is like a necessary component of this defense being what it wants to be. What is your sense about that happening? And what have you heard from people about what just his progress from last year to this year has looked like yeah i mean i i think there is a quiet level of like confidence and and and belief internally about just the way he's gone about it since the end of last year since jonathan grenard was traded i mean you can watch him on a day-to-day basis and like there is no messing around with this guy he is an alabama nick saving guy but i do think from the time he got here to now um just the discipline and the day-to-day habits have really reached kind of a different level.

1:44:47So, I mean, for him, it's been originally like, this is, this is not an easy scheme to learn. So how can you play the correct types of alignments and assignments on a down and down basis? From there, you progress to just physicality. Can you hold up on the edge? And then it's like, okay, as a pass rusher, do you have the tools that you need in your tool belt to be able to win against these very technically savvy tackles? And so if he can eclipse that third level in 2026 and andrew van ginkl is healthy on the other side i do think um who's even behind those well that's and that's another like i mean the that's where i said depth like you know it's undrafted players tyler batty bo richter and chas chambliss so that's another area where i've said for a while now i believe they're you know free agency that has to be a conversation but you know just as well as i do there aren't a ton of guys available in the market right now who are are willing to step in as backup edge rushers that can provide you a pretty solid level production if needed.

1:45:47So, yeah, the Dallas Turner progression is absolutely critical for this defense, and I still do think they need depth behind him at safety.

1:45:56Robert Mays: What do you think the combination of players ultimately looks like, man? You know, the Jamal Adams injury was was I I actually think it was pretty brutal because he had stepped in through two weeks and proven that he could occupy a role near the line of scrimmage. That Josh Metellus, in theory, would have done otherwise. Exactly. And it kind of freed up. I kind of think of Brian Fleur as safety room as like you need three puzzle pieces to fit. You need the field safety communicator type. You need the strong safety who can fit in the box when needed, but also cover in some capacity. And then you need the around the line of scrimmage blitzer, you know, thumper near the box.

1:46:40And so right now, I think there's questions at all three spots, especially if Josh Metellus can't play near the box because you need him on the back end. So, look, I said I mentioned Harrison Smith. I still don't think that is ruled out. I still think it's a little undecided in TBD. whether he will return, but don't really know if there's a timeline on that. And, and I mean, Harrison Smith will be entering his fifth, 15th season, excuse me. So, um, yeah, it's it, the configurations there are, are difficult. And I would imagine internally, they are spinning the Rubik's cube trying to figure it out.

1:47:14Robert Mays: Is there anything else that's been on your mind throughout training camp that I didn't ask you about? I don't think a ton, Robert. I mean, I think we covered so much of it. The offense, like just, you know, how they chisel down all that they want to do in the run and pass to where it is a clarified identity is a really important conversation to me. And then defensively, can the scheme and the young players rise above to prevent the lack of depth from from biting them throughout the course of the season? And like, those are the two kind of in the weed subjects that have been on my mind a ton. Anybody that has stood out to you, like the idea that even Jacob Thomas is a quick name out of people's mouths.

1:48:01Robert Mays: That is when you're talking to coaches and you're hearing about who can be in the mix and who they're relying on. Undrafted players are typically like that guy can make the roster, not like, oh, yeah, we think he can play a role for us. It sounds like Jacob Thomas is somebody that has really opened some eyes since he's been here over the course of training. Yeah, I remember, you know, we get that undrafted signing list. And as I've learned to do, like I'll reach out to certain people in the league of like, is there any name on here that really like peaks your mind? And I do remember there was an NFC executive.

1:48:31It was like, just keep your eyes on this James Madison safety, Jacob Thomas. And I'm kind of like chuckling, like, OK, I'll keep my eyes on it as I'm watching the quarterback competition. But yeah, I mean, like he early on, he's taking snaps with the twos. I mean, he looked like if you just watch the preseason game tape, which I know is what it is like he looked in control he's communicating non-stop the other name like I think I have to mention is Miles Price who two year last year was an undrafted signing from Indiana became the kick returner punt returner and now at like 5 '10 or six foot he's catching everything and uh you know his nickname is Jug because his head looks like a jug so he's a tall he's you know it's a big conversation in camp but he's really impressed as a receiver and I think impressed coaches so how they potentially can use another gadget type offensively.

1:49:20You bucket that under like, OK, we want to get Justin Jefferson the ball. We want to flow to Jordan Addison. We want Kyler Murray to be in effect in the run game. We want Max Bredesen to have a role as a full back in motion. I mean, you're trying to do a lot of things at once and, you know, threading the needle on on it to where it is. This was, you know, it's synced up, I think, is more power to do to them if they are able to do it.

1:49:43Robert Mays: I don't think I was I was going to say this team might have a wider range of outcomes than any other team in the league. I don't know if I necessarily believe that to be true because I do think there's a certain floor when you have an offensive line that can probably play this way. You have a receiving core. You have a coach that can bring you a certain level of competency on both sides of the ball. But I think they might be, as it currently stands to me, like the biggest enigma of all 32 teams, just in terms of what this could actually look like. And you think about, on the best case scenario side, they're definitively a playoff team.

1:50:14Robert Mays: And on the worst case scenario side, If this goes poorly, like what are we saying about this staff by the time the season is over? Like both of those feel like they're on the table. That's what I probably should have said when you asked me of like, you know, anything else on my mind. I do think the 2026 season is going to have massive ramifications, perception, fueled a certain perceptions of Kevin O 'Connell and where he's at as an offensive coach in the NFL. Perception is the right word. I don't I think that there's a long leash and there should be. And he's had a lot of success, all that stuff.

1:50:47Robert Mays: But perception to me, I think that's right. I think the perception is on the line with how this season goes. And if it goes really well and the offense is as creative as it looks like it could be, boy, will the praise be probably louder than one Kevin O 'Connor, one coach of the year a couple of years ago. And if it doesn't, then I think it just brings back the questions that have been answered here for now, more than a year and a half of the quarterback cycle and Sam Darnold to Daniel Jones to Sam Howell to Carson Wentz to the drafting of JJ McCarthy. And that stuff will probably just just follow.

1:51:23So I think the the effect that it will have on those perceptions will be interesting. But yeah, I don't I mean, unless the wheels just absolutely come off. It's hard for me to imagine. Right. And because the culture and I know that that gets thrown around and I sometimes roll my eyes at it but like you talk to the players about their enjoyment of being here and it's quite clear and they are that you know the players are very bought in and have for for a long time and i i say that as someone who has literally watched the day-to-day of this locker room for five years so um yeah it's it's i you're right though like this season is going to be worth monitoring and observing and eyeing for many different reasons and uh it probably won't be boring because it never is here.

1:52:06Robert Mays: I'm already dreading having to try to figure out what the NFC North is going to look like. Like we're like a week and a half away from probably doing that preview show. And I already am like, I think I'd just skip it. Someone asked me the other day, like, how would you rank the quarterbacks in the NFC North? I had to sit down and take a drink. Like it's, it's so hard. And there's so many layers to all. Yeah. I don't know how you're going to have to, I'm looking forward to listening to see how you go about it. There's part of me that wants to just be like, I don't know let's just see how it plays out like well we'll just get out like welcome to the athletic football show this is our nfc north preview i don't know let's see how it plays out that's it and i just hit hit stop and that's that's what we put out for that i mean listen like i i i would like to do that for every story i write about speculating on what this team you know what i don't know yeah you know i actually don't have all the answers unfortunately but no it's the nfc north um i mean man and you talk about like i just think about there's so much crossover like the ben johnson ryan flores matchups over the years and those guys and how they adapt to one another and then you know i could you could go on but um it's going to be a joy ride uh that i will be um probably exhausted after it's over but grateful throughout the process i hope it's a joy ride it's going to be a joy ride for somebody who that is going to be i think is yet to be determined al clueless always great to visit with you sir we'll do it again very soon thanks robert all right guys that's all we got thank you so much to paul thank you to james to alec and to colton we will be back next week with our fifth and final installment of the training can't notebooks for now that's all we got appreciate you guys listening we'll talk to you very soon

1:53:55you're either all in on this model or maybe you're building with another man. You're either speed or is it security? Or you're AWS AI. Don't pick a side, pick them all. AWS AI is how.

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