We're going camping! Eagles, Steelers, Bills and Browns

0:01Golf has come a long way in the past century. Today, the R &A and Accenture are partnering to celebrate its heritage while shaping what's to come.

0:10Robert Mays: Together, the R &A and Accenture are reinventing the future of golf, using data and technology to enhance your experiences of the game and drive the growth of golf worldwide. All this, and there's more to come. Accenture, the official business and technology consulting partner of the R &A. Learn more at Accenture.com slash R &A.

0:57way. Visit Schwab.com to learn more.

1:03Robert Mays: Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's our next iteration of our Going Camping series today, our next four conversations that I had with some of our athletic beat writers while I was on the road. First off, we got Zach Berman in Philadelphia. Next up after that, chatted with Mike DeFabo in Latrobe, Pennsylvania about the Pittsburgh Steelers. Then over to Buffalo with Joe Biscaglia, our Bills writer, and finally wrap things up in Cleveland with Zach Jackson, our Browns writer at The Athletic. Just one thing to keep in mind, the way that the schedule shook out, the conversation I had with Zach Berman was on August 7th.

1:42Robert Mays: And then the conversation with DeFabo was on August 8th. So obviously, just the way that things kind of unfolded here, a little bit of a gap between when those were recorded and when you're going to be hearing them. Just keep that in mind. If anything, Any information has changed. Obviously, some injury stuff is a moving target at this time of year. But just wanted to let you guys know that for a little bit of additional context before we get into it. This wraps up the first leg of the training camp tour. All four of these conversations, we had 15 teams in 18 days, obviously 12 B writer conversations as part of that.

2:13Robert Mays: Truly one of my favorite stretches of the entire year. Just getting to visit with people in every single one of these buildings, learn about what they're thinking, what the off seasons looked like, how they're seeing the upcoming season and just truly diving deep in every one of these places and getting to learn more about what's going on. I love doing it. It's one of my favorite stretches of the entire year. And I'm really enjoying getting to kind of share some of that stuff with you guys, both here and with the notebooks and some of the other training camp material that we're doing, which if you have not checked any of those out on our YouTube channel, would encourage you to do that.

2:48Robert Mays: They're available from every single stop, kind of four minutes of downloading what those conversations sounded like. So if you have not been checking out the notebooks, I would encourage you to go do that. But for now, got our next four beat writer convos. Let's get to them right now.

3:09Robert Mays: Joining us now from Philadelphia, It is one of our Eagles writers here at The Athletic, Zach Berman. Good to see you, sir. Great to see you. Always look forward to coming on the show. It's good to be here. A lot of interesting stuff here this year. I mean, I think that we're used to having coordinator changes in this town. It's seemingly a yearly occurrence in this town. Especially on offense, yes. For one reason or another, right? But this year, it feels very different for a lot of different reasons. And so as you look at the transformation that is currently happening on the offense, would you say it does feel drastically different?

3:41Robert Mays: And what would you say the transition has felt like on that side of the ball thus far? Absolutely. If you say drastically different, that might be understating it. Because you are correct that the coordinator changes are an annual occurrence here, but it can happen because of the byproduct of success. Kellen Moore gets hired, Shane Steichen gets hired, or from underachievement, which is what happened last year. And in the latter, when there's underachievement, it usually brings scheme change. And here's the biggest scheme change for a variety of reasons. First off, they're adopting the, whether you want to call it the McVay-Shanahan scheme, the Matt LaFleur scheme, however you want to frame it, because I know it has different branches.

4:23But Sean Mannion's bringing that. And then what also can't be dismissed is that Jeff Stoutland's not here. And this is year 15 for me covering the Eagles. Jeff Stoutland coached for 13 of those years. Right. And so this is the biggest change to the offensive line that there's been in over a decade. And when you combine the fact that, you know, we can talk about being under center play action, getting away from some of the things they've done in the past or even mixing that with the changes on the offensive line, the wide zone running scheme in particular. This is the most radical change they've had, certainly since Sirianni was hired.

5:00Robert Mays: I just had such a cool conversation with Jordan Mailata about how different it all feels. And when you hear them talk about it, that's where you really get a distillation of just how foreign this all feels, but not in a bad way. I mean, you it's pouring out of their ears how excited they are to play this way up front, because I understand why they did this for a lot of years under Jeff Stoutland. But when you have elite tackles, which they've had for a very long time and elite offensive line, you can streamline and simplify things and ask a lot of those guys. This system just inherently the way that it's constructed asks far less of those guys.

5:36Robert Mays: And I think you can sense how excited they are as a group about that. He just told me, he's like, I'm having more fun during training camp than I have ever had since I got into the NFL playing this way. And that's a good thing. Like that, the fact that that is the energy for a group that you move on from a guy like Jeff Stalin, it could easily go the other way where they're like this. Like, I can't believe like this sucks. I can't believe we're doing it this way. The fact that the opposite has happened, that's the best thing that you could ask for if you're Nick Sirianni or the people that ultimately made this decision.

6:05You're right. And now I don't want to be cynical or even skeptical. It's still the honeymoon period. Of course. Right. So so we'll everything you described is accurate and the excitement and Lane Johnson, who's a truth teller, observes this is an O-line friendly offense and that he he's never had help in pass protection in his career. and now he has guard help. But the reason why I hesitate here is the previous way wasn't that bad. They had multiple Hall of Famers, all pros, pro bowlers, four players who are among the top 10 highest paid players in their positions. A Super Bowl, if you look at Stoutland, two Super Bowls during his time.

6:47So it worked before, but it was clear last year the offensive line didn't play to its standards. Injuries had something to do with it. But I think that this scheme does take some of that off their plate. And just to put your listeners in it here, when you watch an Eagles game last year and in previous years, you would see at the line of scrimmage so much, whether it was signaling things, communication, but there was so much happening at the line of scrimmage. It was almost burdensome to be an offensive line here at the time.

7:23Robert Mays: The comparison that Jordan Mallada just made, which I thought was such a cool way of describing this. It's like we were doing algebra at the line of scrimmage. And now it's much more simplified than that. And I think that they're embracing that change. Yeah, Cam Juergens described it as like they want to be the aggressor. They want the defense to react to them as opposed to them doing so much at the line to try to react to the defense. So I think that's a big change. And then like we mentioned, having guard help in the passing game, the landmarks in the running game are a lot different when you have a wide zone run.

7:56So it is different, but they have the players capable of doing it. Up front, I don't have as many reservations

8:03Robert Mays: simply because these are still very good players. We can talk about the health of them, and I think that's important. But it's easy to kind of talk yourself into the best version of this offensive line playing this way, right? Let's file that away. It's all the other stuff that becomes big question marks. How does the quarterback acclimates playing this way? Your receiver group without A.J. Brown feels much different than it did last year. Your first round pick is not practicing because he has a hamstring issue. And so even if there is a little bit of a honeymoon period up front, I think that the reservations and the consternation with some of the other things, that's very real and should be very real at this stage.

8:39Yes, the offense is different. And as much as you want to discuss the reasons why A.J. Brown was traded, the reality is they're missing an all pro wide receiver. and the group just just looks different so i would say for this offense to be successful they need to run the ball really well absolutely it needs to look similar to 2024 in terms of the way they approach it because i don't think they're going to have a dynamic passing game within themselves within itself i think if the passing game can work off the running game that's when the play action is effective that's when there will be some space uh in the middle of the field to operate If Saquon and Tank Bigsby and the offensive line can get this running game going, then I think they can be effective in the passing game.

9:28But I think if you said, Zach, can this passing game be better? I don't think within itself it will be. I think it has to marry itself to the run game in order to be better.

9:38Robert Mays: And that's the benefit of this scheme. That's what it's completely rooted in is the marriage of those two things. And so I'm as I look at it right now, the two guys that based on talking to people today and based on sheer availability of personnel that are going to be a bigger part of this offense than they were last year. One guy wasn't here, right? Dontavian Wicks is now the de facto number two receiver with Makai Lemon missing all this time. And even with Makai Lemon, even if he gets healthy, my sense is we're still going to see a lot of Dontavian Wicks within this offense. And the other guy is Tank Biggs.

10:09Robert Mays: I just think that he's going to be a bigger part of this than he probably was a year ago. Would you say that's fair? Like those are the two guys we're going to see more of with the Eagles offense than we saw last year. Oh, for sure. Or that we might have expected. Obviously, Wicks is new. Yeah, for sure. So to address Wicks first, Devontae Smith is like the clear number one receiver. And I point that out because there were so many questions. How will they replace A.J. Brown? And I would reframe it. How will they replace Devontae Smith? Because Devontae now goes into that A.J. role. But when you have AJ and Devontae, you have two guys who are essentially No.

10:421 receivers and can create mismatches. They don't necessarily have that now. So who steps in there? Well, Makai Lemon's the first-round pick. But Makai Lemon, even if he were healthy, at this stage, he might still be a match-up-type player. Dontavian Wicks is someone who they traded for from Green Bay. He has a background in Mannion's scheme. But this wasn't just trading a draft pick for him. They traded for him and signed him to an extension, which indicates right away that they view him as a piece. And he's played well. Anecdotally, talking to his teammates, they're seeing the juice that he brings.

11:15Now, it's ambitious to expect him to replace Devontae Smith or to mimic Devontae Smith's production. But I do think when you're looking at, all right, your 2-3 is Lemon, Wicks, Wicks, Lemon, however you want to frame it. They need Wicks to be good for this passing game to be good. Then Tank Bigsby, the numbers last year jump off the page, but it was a limited sample. And obviously, Saquon stayed healthy, but I think he's a weapon. And if you said who were the five best skill players in this offense, I'd put Tank Bigsby in there. He has juice. The Eagles traded two picks for him last year, including a fourth, I believe.

11:52And Howie Roseman liked him, and it took some time to get him going. But when you look at him and Saquon together, I don't think he takes snaps away from Saquon. But I think that there are ways you can use him within the offense to get that juice because he does bring something different. Let's talk about the quarterback's acclimation here.

12:16Robert Mays: How do you feel like that has gone so far? If you're reading the tea leaves, how bought in do you think he feels to what they're doing? What have the early returns been about the Jalen Hurts role within this offense and how it's changing? Yeah, absolutely bought in. And I don't think that's lip service. That's from watching him. That's from talking to him. That's from talking to people around him that he's obviously motivated. But I think that he sees the why behind some of these changes. I think that from his perspective, these aren't things that he can't do. They're just things that he hasn't done or hasn't done as frequently when you talk about operating from under center.

12:52when you talk about attacking the middle of the field. So I think he hears some of those criticisms, and he is eager to answer them in the way that he has. Now we'll see how it materializes, but I think he's had a good camp. It hasn't always been seamless or flawless or perfect, but I think he's made some high-level throws. I think he's in a good headspace. I like what I've seen from Jalen this summer.

13:18Robert Mays: You said he's motivated. this organization specifically, we've seen them cut the cord on guys before other organizations might be willing to. As you think about Jalen's future here and what the multi-year outlook for him is, do you sense a little bit of urgency and uncertainty about what the next few years would look like based on how this season goes? I think it would be almost naive not to view it that way because you just look at the way the contract's structured, the guaranteed money's waning, number one. Number two, he's no longer among the top 10 highest paid quarterbacks in the league. So there has to be a decision probably after this season, are you going to give him that next deal?

14:02He's a Super Bowl MVP. The winning speaks for itself. The way he conducts himself, it speaks for itself. But there is a decision you need to make. Are you going to pay a quarterback $60 million a year? Because that's the conversation. That's the area you're in at this point. Or do you say, look at the money you're spending on the defensive side of the ball, and that's before you pay Cooper the Gene. That's before you pay Quinone Mitchell. Do you have to shift the economics in that way too? I think they're always going to err on the side of paying their quarterback here. But I don't think that if there's regression from the offense back-to-back years, I don't think they're going to keep saying, let's throw a new offensive scheme at this.

14:45I think eventually you say, what more can the quarterback do? Having said that, though, I don't want your listeners to perceive that as saying Jalen's on the hot seat or Jalen hasn't proven. I mean, Jalen, you can win a Super Bowl with Jalen Hurts because you've already seen that. Yes. He plays his best in the big moments. This is more like an NFL economics conversation, which is once you pay your quarterback, when that guaranteed money is not there, are you ready to pay him again? And it's happening with multiple teams right now. It'll be a conversation in Philly after the season.

15:20Robert Mays: When you look at the offensive line, the best version of this offensive line filtered through this system, it's easy to get excited about. We didn't see the best version of this offensive line last year. And we're already in a spot where they're moderating Landon Dickerson's reps. Cam Juergens walked off today. I assume you guys asked about that. I don't know what the clarity on that is yet. But as you think about them, how they're treating that group, trying to keep that group healthy, what do you think the chances are that we see Landon Dickerson back at the level that we saw two years ago? Look, it's a huge question surrounding this year.

15:49And both Landon Dickerson and Cam Jorgens, they went to Columbia this offseason, the country, Columbia, for stem cell therapy. They're not coming off surgeries last year. Both of them were coming off surgeries. injuries uh it's hard to speculate on health and those guys you know had had notable injuries they are fresher this year they are healthier this year and just in talking to people in the building there's so much admiration for teams like kansas city teams like new england in the past who rebounded from super bowl years with you know going deep again because one thing you kept hearing is is we're not complaining about the success but man when when you're playing into february and you have guys playing through injuries, that really takes a toll on you the following year.

16:34And that group, that offensive line was never quite right last year. And you saw that in games.

16:40Robert Mays: Going to the other side of the ball, it's a situation where like there's so few things that feel unsettled. Like you look at it, it's like, all right, who's the second safety going to be? And other than that, it's like, what questions do we have about this defense right now? Because they did such a good job of answering them in the offseason. Like, all right, we need one, a little bit more juice off the edge. We trade for Jonathan Grenard. That second cornerback spot, the second outside cornerback spot was such a wasteland last year. We're going to go get Rick Wollin on a modest, reasonable deal that he absolutely has a chance to outplay.

17:13Robert Mays: So as you look at that defense, what are the questions that you're asking right now? How many all pros are they going to have? Yeah, I mean, that's kind of where my mind goes to. It's the truth. I could say this will be Vic Fangio's best defense ever, but they were number one in the league two years ago. So they are absolutely in discussion for the best defense in the NFL. They have not just continuity, not just high-level talent, but high-level talent in the primes of their careers. Zach Bond and Jonathan Grenard, neither player is 30 years old yet. Both of them are like the oldest players in the starting group.

17:46When you look at the 2D depth chart, they don't have rookies who are pushing to be your key backups. Their key backups have experience in this scheme or are 10-year vets like Jonathan Jones or former starters like H.A. Epineza. So, there's so much talent here. And I haven't even mentioned, like I said, the all-pro thing. Jalen Carter, Quinion Mitchell, Cooper the Gene have already been all-pro players. Zach Bond has been an all-pro player. Jordan Davis is getting near there. And they certainly paid him to be that. Yeah, Jalex Hunt, if you didn't know the context and you were just watching training camp practices, you'd say Jalex Hunt's the best player on the field because he's been that type of edge rusher at times this summer.

18:32And, you know, Jihad Campbell might have been the top linebacker in the draft a year ago, certainly among them. He steps in for N 'Kobe Dean. Rick Wollin was outstanding this spring. He has all the tools. He's now your second corner. So, yeah, the only question is, who's your second safety? And it looks like it's going to be Marcus Epps. Howie Roseman can still make a trade there. But even Marcus Epps was a solid starter on the Super Bowl defense in 2022. So across the board, they have high level talent, they have depth, and they have continuity in the scheme.

19:01Robert Mays: You look at other teams that run a version of this system, that second safety spot, there is a tendency to just say, I want a veteran who knows what he's doing that has, in my opinion, a pretty high floor. We've seen a lot of teams kind of go to that type of player. I think that's how they conceive of Marcus Epps in this defense. He knows the system. I feel like he's reliable enough, even if there aren't high end flashes. If he's the worst player in our 11 and he is a high floor option within the defense, we feel pretty good about where we are. You're absolutely right. Now, the question there is, is your number one safety, Drew Makuba, playing at the level of a number one safety?

19:35Sure. Because he's coming off an injury plagued rookie year. But yeah, if your biggest question in your defense is Marcus Epps, then it's a really good defense. The other thing I would just tell your listeners to watch out for is the Eagles playing more base this year than in the past. Because it might be their best 11. Exactly. Because when they're in base, Cooper DeGene plays safety. So he plays safety next to Makuba. You have a five-man front that includes Mauro Ojimo, who a year from now is probably on a$20 million a year plus contract somewhere else. It's their best 11. and they have a back six there that can really cover because their linebackers can cover, the entire secondary can all cover.

20:18I asked Vic Fangio about this, and Fangio said that with the way the NFL is shifting, more teams now are playing heavy packages, so they could be in more base this year just because they're seeing more 12 personnel and packages like that. But I think that if you're saying, all right, how do you get your best 11 on the field? How are you so disruptive at the line of scrimmage? and can still cover in the back end,

20:39Robert Mays: it's playing base. Yeah, and I think that's going to be the question teams ask themselves, because now we're in a position where that's not the best 11 for a lot of teams. That's where you can find weaknesses in coverage, but the range that you have at linebacker, plus the fact that DeGene stays on the field, that probably is the best option for them, which I think makes a lot of sense. Exactly. You mentioned Jay Lingson, right? If you didn't know, if you had no idea what the background was for all these guys, he's looked potentially the best player in training camp. A couple more guys that have opened your eyes a little bit with the way that they've played so far.

21:07Yeah, I'll start with Jalen Carter because he's obviously been a high-level player before, highest paid defensive tackle now in NFL history, and he looks at this summer. I mean, he's in a better spot health-wise. Obviously, the contract's behind him. He is so disruptive on a day-to-day basis. So I would mention him. I would mention Jalex Hunt, of course. I think both Jordan Davis and Mauro Ojomo have had moments that really jump out. Jihad Campbell had a practice two days ago where he was just swarming sideline to sideline. You see the length that he has at that position. So those are the guys there on defense.

21:44On offense, it's been a little more inconsistent. You mentioned Dontavian Wicks. He's had some good practices. Down the depth chart, Darius Cooper, who was an undrafted rookie last year, he keeps showing up. And I always kind of viewed him and the Eagles view him as that dirty work wide receiver. He can block. He can play special teams. I think back, I used to cover the New York Giants when Victor Cruz was coming up. In year two, I remember you had to start reconfiguring your expectations for Victor Cruz. Is this a nice story of an undrafted guy from UMass, or is this a contributing player? Darius Cooper, it's no longer about being a nice story.

22:20I think now, and Jalen Hurts has name-checked him, can he push his way into the top four in that group? It might be ambitious, but if you're just watching it, he's making plays on a consistent basis, and that's what you need to do.

22:33Robert Mays: Especially in this offensive system, dirty work receivers are more important than they were in the previous way that you were playing. Realistic expectations in your mind for what a rookie season looks like for Makai Lemon? If he's healthy, he's playing. I think he should be the number two wide receiver. It depends how much 11 personnel they play. We need to see how he looks on the outside, but he can be a difference maker in the slot or at least the type of player who causes disruption in the slot. If you can get 600 yards out of him in his rookie season, I think you would take that. But it all depends on health.

23:11I've covered rookie receivers here like Jalen Rager, who just the transition was too much. I've covered rookie receivers here like Devontae Smith, who from day one looked like he belonged. and uh you know makai lemon it's too soon to say because he missed the spring now he's missing time this summer but you watch him at usc and and you're like he can have a definite role in this

23:32Robert Mays: offense with rookies that are hurt at this point in training game it's august 7th i'm always alarm bells going off but somebody today made a good point like we've seen this before like cooper de jean missed most of training camp his rookie year he gets in there in week five and he's immediately an important player for this team. And so they've had recent examples where guys have come along slowly and still you've felt them over the course of the year. My response to that is that that's a pretty narrow window. That is a tough needle to thread. Whether Makai Lemon can be that sort of player without much of a training camp, I have reservations about that.

24:05Yeah, you're correct. Cooper the Jeans, the best case scenario here. And part of the advantage is that they didn't put him in week one, right? Whereas you look at this wide receiver core, you might need Makai Lemon to be a contributor week one. You pointed out week five with Cooper. You're absolutely right. It was after the bye. And so they were ready to put him in then. They had a month to kind of get him ready for that slot spot. If you said to me, Makai Lemon's not going to contribute until October, I'm going to say, what's this wide receiver core look like in September? Because... A lot of Cooper.

24:40Yeah. You know, I mean, you have Hollywood Brown, you have Elijah Moore. but it's not a great group of wide receivers as it is. So that's where I'm real curious to see, can you get him into the lineup week one?

24:55Robert Mays: What have your early impressions been of Sean Mannion so far? It's the last thing I'll ask you. I'm just curious. Yeah, really bright guy. And I always say, if you're trying to hire a scheme, A, you're probably too late on it. And B, that's the wrong way to go about it. You have to hire a mind who brings a scheme. And from all indications, they hired a mind. They hired a coach. He obviously doesn't have a lot of coaching experience. And you know this well. When you're the type of backup he is, you last that long in the league because of your contributions to the room and because of how you can help the offense.

25:28Not necessarily because you can come in and win a game.

25:32Robert Mays: 2019, Kevin Stefanski said to me when Sean was still playing, he'll be a quarterback coach the moment he wants to be. The moment that he wants to be. That is very rarely do you have players that even if they're potentially had to have a future in coaching, there's somebody that's willing to say so definitively while they're still playing. That's going to be a good coach right away. But Sean Mannion was that type of guy. Yeah. So I the early impressions have been have been favorable in terms of the mind, the way he's communicating. The big question is going to be how original is his offense? How does he take the ideas that he brings here and mixes it with the talent?

26:08Maximize Jalen Hurts. Don't ask Jalen Hurts to be Kevin Love. Oh, Jordan. I'm sorry. Jordan Love. Kevin Love would be even worse. Yes. Yes. Jordan Love, Matthew Stafford, Brock. Like how how can you make Jalen Hurts the best version of Jalen Hurts in this offense? And because there are things Jalen does that are special when you look at the quarterback run game in particular. So I'm curious to see how he mixes the ideas that he's bringing with the personnel that he has.

26:36Robert Mays: I'm really excited to see it. I've been very impressed with him. I think he has a very clear vision of how he wants to play, why he wants to play that way, incorporating some of those ideas into what his structure looks like that feels cohesive. It all sounds good now. Yes. It always sounds good on August 7th. But this is a transition. We've seen this in a bunch of different places. I was just in Washington. Similar conversation. Cincinnati is going to be more under center this year. Similar conversation. This is the one where I almost am most interested to see it because there's still so much elite talent.

27:05Robert Mays: Yes. And so that elite talent filtered through these ideas. And we talked about it last week on our show. I'm open to the idea that we could see the best version we've seen of Jalen Hurts playing within this sort of offense. But again, that's all stuff that sounds good on August 7th. We'll see what it looks like on September. Yeah, the best way I can sum the Eagles up is that the defense is going to give them a high floor. The offense is going to determine the ceiling. So if this offense can be good, they'll be a Super Bowl contender. If this offense is inconsistent. And then Sean Manuel will be gone again from now.

27:34They'll be first. But you know what? You would take the byproduct to get back to the first question. you take changes because of success. If they make it to the NFC championship game, the Super Bowl, and Sean Mannion's poach, they'll take that here. If this offense underachieves, and then there's bigger questions, that's the situation you don't want. Awesome. Zach Berman, always appreciate the time, sir. Great to chat with you. We'll do it again

27:56Robert Mays: very soon. Look forward to it. Thanks. Hey, everyone. Michael Beller for Behind the Scenes at The Athletic Football Show here. I run TAF's and our college football show, The Audible at the athletic. And so that means I've got a lot of tasks on my plate. Most of those are fun to do. There's a reason why I'm in the business. But if I'm being honest, there's probably one or two that I wouldn't mind being able to shift off of my plate. And I think that's probably true for all of us. That one task, that other task that, you know, if someone else took care of it, you wouldn't really mind. If payroll is that one for you, Gusto is here to help.

28:26Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one, remote friendly, and incredibly easy to use. So you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. Automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers' comp, 401k, you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. Unlimited payroll runs for one monthly price. No hidden fees, no surprises. Save time with built-in automated tools, offer letters, onboarding docs, direct deposit, and more. Get direct access to certified HR experts to help support you through any tough HR transition.

29:00It's quick and simple to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. Plus, don't pay a cent until you run your first payroll. Try Gusto today at gusto.com slash athletic football and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com slash athletic football. One more time, gusto.com slash athletic football. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for? The one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded? I found it. And trust me, it's not what you expect. It's called Paka, spelled P-A-K-A.

29:38And if you're tired of hoodies that stretch out, pill, or feel heavy, this is the upgrade you've been waiting for. Paka makes outdoor and lifestyle apparel from Alpaka Fiber, one of the world's most sustainable natural fibers. Their best-selling hoodie is softer than cashmere, warmer than wool, and breathable. This hoodie is built for real life, thermoregulating, odor resistant, durable, and made to last. Each one is made start to finish in Peru and features an Inca ID that's hand woven by artisans, honoring generations of knowledge and traditions and connecting you closer to where your clothing comes from.

30:08Over 250 ,000 people have already picked up the pack of hoodie. What makes it even better? It really is like a second skin. So comfortable, so warm, exactly what you're looking for in a hoodie. You know, it's funny, as a sports podcaster, I am able to have a relatively casual wardrobe. When I go into the office a few days ago, my wife and I were both getting ready to go for work and she looked me up and down and was like, that's for the office? And I'm like, yeah, it is. And guess what? It was the pack of hoodie that I was wearing. You can wear it to work, can wear it to a baseball game, a football game, can wear it to your kids' games, you can wear it outside, inside, whatever the case might be, pack of hoodie is there for you.

30:45If you've been thinking about leveling up your hoodie game, this is your sign to do it. To grab your PACA hoodie, go to www.pacaapparel.com. That's www.pacaapparel.com.

31:02Golf has come a long way in the past century. Today, the R &A and Accenture are partnering to celebrate its heritage while shaping what's to come.

31:12Robert Mays: Together, the R &A and Accenture are reinventing the future of golf. using data and technology to enhance your experiences of the game and drive the growth of golf worldwide. All this, and there's more to come. Accenture, the official business and technology consulting partner of the R &A. Learn more at Accenture.com slash R &A.

31:40Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Steelers writer here at The Athletic, Mike DeFabo. Great to see you, sir. How are you? I'm doing great here in my hometown of La Trobe, Pennsylvania, home of Arnold Palmer, Mr. Rogers, the first banana split, used to be Rolling Rock beer. And I could get a job as a tour guide here. I'll tell you everything you know about La Trobe because that's about it. I always love that where the media is housed here on the campus of St. Vincent is the Fred Rogers Center. So it's just the Mr. Rogers area of La Trobe and of this campus. That's where you come when you're doing Steelers Media.

32:13It is Mr. Rogers neighborhood here. Actually, they even have a trolley that takes you around St. Vincent. No joke. You can get on... Instead of a bus, like a shuttle for the students, there's a trolley.

32:25Robert Mays: I love it. I enjoy coming out here. It's one of the only teams that still does this. And so every year, I was pulling in today and the woman was like, you know where you're going? I was like, I actually do. And I really appreciate that about this place is that I actually do know where I'm going. Well, the funny thing, I'll tell a quick story is when I was a kid, I would come up here, obviously, and get autographs and watch training camp. The same exact place where I would stand there and be like, Jerome Bettis, can I get an autograph? You know, Cordell Stewart, can I get an autograph? Now I'm like, DK Metcalf, do you have a minute to do an interview?

32:54It's a very full circle. And my mom loves to tell the story of the time that Josh Miller was walking over, the punter, former punter. And my brother and I are trying to get an autograph. And he's holding an ice cream cone. And he's like, oh, yeah, I'll give you an autograph. and he didn't know what to do with his cone. He just hands my mom the ice cream cone. And that was her favorite training camp memory that she got to hold Josh Miller's ice cream cone.

33:15Robert Mays: It's a special place for Steelers fans. And obviously, the practices are packed every single day. We have a night practice tonight. It's crazy. So I haven't seen the practice yet. That's kind of one of the quirks of the way that today shook out based on my travel schedule shifting around a little bit. But still plenty to talk about even without having seen practice. I want to start in a big picture place because I'm curious what your answer to this question would be. What are you most interested in with the 2026 Pittsburgh Steelers? What are you trying to learn most right now about where this team is and what it wants to be?

33:46Well, this is a franchise that believes in stability and continuity above all else. And so having a new head coach is just so different. And so I think a lot of the questions early in training camp were, how are things going to be different under Mike McCarthy? And one thing that has struck me is, while Mike McCarthy is the third oldest coach in the NFL, he is not old school. And, you know, coming into training camp, I thought, is he going to do things the way he learned at Bishop Boyle High School? Is he going to be having these long, grueling practices and, you know, lots of hitting, tackling?

34:18And he talks about things, you know, the big difference in training camp is that Mike Tomlin led arguably the most physical training camp. Yes. He always used to say you cannot box without sparring, one of his many Tomlinisms. And Mike McCarthy's approach is there will be no live tackling. And while that upsets my uncle who played fullback at Shippensburg, I think I think it's very much in line with the way the rest of the league does things. And so, you know, that's just one example. But McCarthy has talked about his use of analytics. He's talked about GPS monitoring and sports science. And he talked about like priming the central nervous system for these guys.

34:59And so, you know, I think that while he is a 62-year-old head coach, he is showing an involved way of thinking that is different than some of the things the Steelers have done in the past.

35:09Robert Mays: With the offense specifically, I mean, we'll get into some of the positional concerns. I actually really like a lot of the offensive roster. I'm really curious how it's going to shake out. The realistic expectations for this team this year in terms of what they can accomplish in 2026 are completely and directly tied to the realistic expectations for the quarterback. And as I've thought about the Steelers all offseason, there's this, man, like you look at the defensive line rotation. You look at some of the moves that they've made along the offensive line. The pass catchers is going to be a deeper group this year.

35:39Robert Mays: You can see the multi-year vision for it. But every single time I start to get myself excited about what they're building, there's a, yeah, but what can we really get from Aaron Rodgers right now? And so in your mind, based on either what you've seen or what you've heard, what do you think the answer to that question is? What do you think we can realistically get from Aaron Rodgers within this offense of this season? You know, I think that he could take a step forward from what he was last year. The thing about Aaron Rodgers last year was if you had conversations with people around the league, you could tell which games they watched based on what their evaluation of Aaron Rodgers was.

36:11Because some people would say, you know, man, he can really still sling it and he still looks like the Aaron Rodgers game. And then other people would say to you, man, he looks like a 42 year old back there playing quarterback. And both of those are true. And so I think with Aaron Rodgers, he still has the mind to do it. He still has the arm talent to do it. But when he faces high end defenses, especially with elite pass rushers like they saw against the Houston Texans, that's where his play starts to drop off. And so the concern there is that it kind of puts a cap on the season where they're going to be good enough to be in the conversation, but never really great enough to be a contender.

36:52At least that's my concern with this team. Now, maybe with an offense that fits him a little bit more, shifting to more of a wide open 11 personnel type of offense with a stronger offensive line in front of him with a highly paid defense that maybe lives up to their salary cap hit this season. That's all the hope. But still, I look at this team and I see similar to years past, a nine or 10 win team fighting until the last week of the season to make the playoffs. But if they get there, you know, not being one of those teams you're talking about really making noise.

37:25Robert Mays: I don't want to get too bogged down in this because there's plenty of stuff to talk about with this roster as it currently stands. But as you think about the year long timeline for what the quarterback position looks like in Pittsburgh, how do we factor Drew Aller into this? How do we think about the position if they do end up being a nine or 10 win team that's not in a position to draft a quarterback of the future? It's August 8th right now. August 8th, 2026. On August 9th, 2027, how do you think we'll be thinking about the Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback room? Well, I think if they are in a position, they're going to do everything they can to move up and draft a quarterback in the first round.

38:02But as we sat here in training camps in the past, I probably would have given you that same answer a year ago. in the year before that. And that's, I think, maybe one of the concerns with Aaron Rodgers is, it sounds funny to say, but a worst-case scenario would be a team that barely gets in the playoffs or barely misses the playoffs that's competitive, but all it does is push them further away from that draft pick that gets them out of this QB purgatory that they've been in and these continuous band-aids of veterans that they've put on the most important position in football. I found it interesting when they drafted Drew Aller because I thought that that was almost kind of like a security blanket or like a break case in breaking case of emergency.

38:46Kind of like, hey, what if, again, this quarterback class doesn't pan out to be what we think? What if they're not in a position to move up and get one of these top passers? Now you presumably could have two young guys and Will Howard versus Drew Aller battling it out for a year. And I think you could sell the fan base on that for a year and maybe Mike McCarthy can unlock something in one of them. So, yeah, I think that they would love it to be a first round pick that gets them out of this situation they're in and is clearly the guy of the future. But I think that there's also a likelihood that you're talking about Will Howard versus Drew Aller being the big camp competition a year from now.

39:22Robert Mays: The Drew Aller, Mike McCarthy pairing, I think a lot of the conversation around that was Mike McCarthy has proven himself to be a developer of quarterbacks during his time in the league. You're chipping away right now at a story about what that process looks like practically. What does that process look like? Like, what is the case for why Mike McCarthy specifically is the person that could get something out of Drew Aller based on what you've gleaned from the quarterbacks that you've talked to? Right. So so Mike McCarthy has this approach to developing quarterbacks he calls the QB school. And this dates back, you know, decades.

39:54And Aaron Rodgers was actually the last guy to go through the QB school. And a huge emphasis of it is the footwork and the fundamentals. And I talked to the quarterback coach, Tom Arth, and he said, it's putting fundamentals before scheme. And I think it's interesting with Drew Aller because coming out of college, he has the frame, the long arms, the big hands, and really top-end arm talent. So he has all the things you cannot teach. And now I think what's interesting is the biggest knock on him was his footwork. He comes into a system with a coach that footwork is the main priority. So I think in a best case scenario, you're taking all that raw potential and you're kind of putting guardrails on it.

40:43And by giving him a very clearly defined footwork and really hammering that in, maybe that gives him the framework to then unleash some of that talent that's there. But he definitely is a developmental quarterback and is best served if this is a redshirt season for him. I mean, beyond just the footwork, which again, we keep I keep saying that word, but Mike McCarthy does that needs to be improved. His accuracy is still very spotty as well. And he'll need to show that he can process the game at this level. Something that also was a bit of a concern leading to some turnovers and some bad decisions at the college level.

41:20Robert Mays: Let's get to the rest of the offense. You mentioned this a little bit. Structurally, it's obviously going to look different than it did with Arthur Smith. The team finished 31st in rate of 11 personnel last year. that's been an Arthur Smith staple over the last several years. Mike McCarthy has come from a place where it was a lot of more traditional 11 personnel, kind of the way the league felt a decade ago, not in a pejorative way, but that's just how Mike McCarthy has traditionally played. As you think about this team's receiving personnel and what you think the most consistent group will be, the players that will rely on, what does that look like a week into camp for you?

41:54You know, I think that this wide receiver room is in a different place than a year ago. You could say that. You know, just let's lay it out specifically here. A year ago, they were talking about Jonu Smith, a tight end, combined with Calvin Austin and Roman Wilson maybe being a wide receiver too. And not to knock these guys, but Jonu Smith was cut and is now unsigned. Calvin Austin, I was a big fan of him. He signed for, I think, the veteran minimum. So I told you what the Steelers thought about those guys. they could be wide receiver too. That's what the rest of the league thought about those players.

42:31Now you've brought in a guy in Michael Pittman Jr. who at different points in his career has been a legitimate number one wide receiver. He is willing to step in and play the role of the number two. And then really the depth of this room hinges upon Roman Wilson. Roman Wilson was injured his first year on a hip drop tackle during training camp, basically turned his first year into a redshirt season. Last year was a very disappointing year for him. And he did not always click with Aaron Rodgers. I think that the play that sums up Roman Wilson's second season with the Steelers was against the Cincinnati Bengals about three quarters of the way into the season.

43:12And Rodgers looked for Roman Wilson, you know, throws incomplete. And Aaron broke his wrist on the play. Before going to the sideline to get medical attention, he ran up into Roman Wilson's face and screamed at him about what he did wrong on that play. They eventually. There's a lot to unpack there. Yes. Yes. So they eventually had to remake the wide receiver room on the fly, bringing in MBS and Adam Thielen. So, you know, this year, you know, as you mentioned, with the change in personnel, the third receiver on your depth chart goes from a rotational piece to a starter. And so they really need Roman Wilson step up.

43:51And he has had a very good camp to this point. He really has. And so, you know, can that continue? You know, with him, he does practice hard. He has a good work ethic. You see flashes. He has the speed to take the top off the defense. You can target him on some of those big crossers that they want to run. But until he does it in the game, because he hasn't yet consistently, there's still going to be questions about that, that, that spot on the depth chart.

44:17Robert Mays: I mean, it does seem like, though, he has a chance to be that third receiver at more often than Jeremy Bernard did. And I think when they made the pick in the second round, the thought was just that the three receivers on this team would most likely be DK Metcalf, Michael Pittman and Jeremy Bernard. And it doesn't sound like that's solidified at this point. It does seem like Roman Wilson is giving him enough of a run where we could see Roman Wilson as often or more than we see Jeremy Bernard. You know, I'll tell you from being at training camp that Roman Wilson's getting the overwhelming majority of the snaps as wide receiver three in this 11 personnel.

44:48Right now, he is very clearly ahead of Jeremy Bernard on the depth chart. How long does it stay that way, though, is the question. And in Jeremy Bernard's challenge is going to be, you know, as Roman Wilson showed, Aaron Rodgers is not the most rookie friendly quarterback. He has a lot of complex hand signals. You know, he has high expectations. He wants you to be where he expects you to be when he expects you to be there. If you're not, he'll tell you about it. So that's going to be the challenge for Jeremy Bernard. Now, that said, he the whole, you know, scouting report on him is he's very pro ready.

45:21He produced at a high level. He had a lot of experience in college. So if there is a young player who can step in and thrive with a quarterback like Rogers, I think that Bernard is in a good position to do so. But again, there's going to be an adjustment and he has to actually do it.

45:34Robert Mays: There's murkiness of the other skill position groups as well. or as well, like as you're thinking about the running back room, what the rotation might look like, who they're going to lean on, what does that look like so far? Well, if you're a fantasy football fan, what I'll tell you is whichever Steelers running back you draft is going to be the one that doesn't get the most carries because I think that's how it's going to shake out. But you know, if I were to right now predict, I think it's going to be 60, 40 in favor of Rico Dowdle. You know, he is the guy who Mike McCarthy has more familiarity with having worked with him in Dallas.

46:06He also has the experience of carrying the load. You know, he has a couple thousand yard seasons under his belt. So, you know, I think that he probably, I think I lean slightly towards him as running back one a, but I do think it's going to be very much a shared backfield. And Mike McCarthy's talked about when he's calling plays, he doesn't want to worry about which back is in the game. You know, both of the, both these guys are competent enough catching the ball out of the backfield. Jalen Warren's exceptional and past protection probably fits better as a third down back. But Rico Dattles pretty sound in that area as well.

46:36So I think you could see a fairly even split.

46:38Robert Mays: At tight end, Pat Fryermuth is kind of the guy that got marginalized last year because of the way that room shook out, the way that they wanted to play. I assume he'll be a more featured part of what they're doing offensively this year, but this is also a team that just gave Darnell Washington a lot of money. So as you think about that room and what those roles would look like, how has that transpired so far? Yeah, you know, it was a very disappointing year for Pat Frymuth last year. And I mean, they're paying him to be one of the top 10 best tight ends in the league. And then they went out and got Johnny Smith a year ago and was very redundant approach to roster building.

47:13Pat Frymuth has had a very good camp and. Especially in key situations, Aaron Rodgers has been going to him. You know, I go back to a couple of two minute drills where it was fourth down in Aaron Rodgers, found Pat Friermuth to keep the chains moving and then later found him for a touchdown. Similar similarly, like two days after that, again, on a third and long situation, he found Pat Friermuth over the middle of the field. And so. I think by nature of the offense and the coordinator, the play caller, I think there's gonna be more opportunities and also by the changes in the depth chart, there'll be more opportunities for Pat Friermuth.

47:50for darnell i think they ideally would like to run similar things but they are going to have to tilt some concepts a little bit and shake them up because like in some ways he's kind of a tackle playing tight end and i mean that as a compliment um i really do um and so i mean the route trees are clearly going to be different he's just not going to be running the same type of routes that you can expect from from frymouth but because of his frame you know rogers really likes him he's compared him to Mercedes Lewis, a guy that he had a lot of success with in the past. And it actually took until Rodgers got here to unlock the pass-catching ability of Darnell Washington.

48:28So I think I look at him as kind of like that red zone vulture that's going to... When they get down to the goal line, it was often throw a fade or an out to DK or throw a fade or an out to Darnell Washington. I could see some of that same things happening this year.

48:42Robert Mays: It sounds from the outside like Maxi Nachor has had a nice training camp. You've seen some of the flashes from him. And obviously, there's just so far for him to go. You're talking to people in the league about this tackle group. And there were a lot of people who were fans of him just in the skill set. But he was so incredibly raw just because let's let's not call it raw. I think that his game is maybe more refined than people are giving a credit for. He's just inexperienced. He's hasn't played a lot of football. And so I think the mental side, there's still a gap to close for him to play. But it sounds like as it currently stands, there's like a very real chance that he could be their starting right tackle for most of this season.

49:17Robert Mays: Is that fair? He's been a very pleasant surprise during training camp. I mean, like you, I questioned what was it going to be like coming in? A guy that only started playing football five years ago. A guy that five years ago didn't even know the difference between offense and defense. I mean, he knew nothing about football. Okay. He has come a long way and you just see the natural ability. He had a couple one-on-one reps against Nick Herbig, a great speed rusher. And that's where you see the lateral agility and the athleticism really shine. And then TJ Watt hit him with a bull rush. And he was physical enough to lock in and to hold up TJ Watt.

49:54So he was one of the standouts through early training camp. Now, as we're recording this, he did have a bit of an injury that could complicate things. But it sounds like they're optimistic he could be back as soon as Monday. So that's encouraging that maybe it's not long term. We'll have to keep an eye on that. Um, I think that they'll based on me, I think it's a competition in Canada right now. They've got Dylan Cook there, but I think by the end of the year, you're going to see Maxi on a chore as a starter.

50:24Robert Mays: So, so far you think the early returns have been positive in terms of what they could have expected from him and what they've seen. I mean, let me put it to you this way. Okay. They've got Broderick Jones going into his fourth year and they've got Maxi on a short rookie. If I said you've got two tackles and one's a rookie one's fourth round, you would be like, you would mix them up. Yeah. You know, Iona Choros looks like the guy that has some experience in the league. And Broderick, unfortunately, as he comes back from spinal fusion surgery, he's lost a lot of weight. He's lost some strength. He's been struggling.

50:54He's not had a great start to training camp. But, you know, the good thing is that's why they drafted Iona Choros, because they want to be a team that wins games in November and December because the strength of their offensive line. They've made the investments, and now it's about actually doing it.

51:08Robert Mays: I'm really interested in what the offense will look like structurally, because obviously Brian Angelico, their offensive coordinator, works with Mike McCarthy in Green Bay, I think from like 2016 to 18 as a tight ends coach. So he's familiar in this that in the wall West Coast world. But you look at Angelico's background. He spent some time in Washington on that staff living in the McVay Kubiak sort of world. And then he's in Minnesota over the last few years with Kevin O 'Connell. that offense and what the idea is that offense is rooted in looks very different than like way way that Mike McCarthy wants to live and so as they're trying to blend some of that stuff into one cohesive world what does that offense look like so far and if you're like the pie chart of where those influences are coming from what is your sense of what that looks like you know I think where you see it is you see a lot of under center you see a lot of wide zone runs you see a lot of play action you know a lot of those kind of sound like mcveigh type tree type things um at the same time aaron rogers thrived in the west coast system and he has talked glowingly about how great it is to be back in the west coast system where it's all about timing and precision and you know we talked about the quarterback you know so much of what mike mccarthy believes in is the steps of the quarterback's drop have to marry with the depths of the receiver's routes all those things are there and in rogers you know the one of the best things he said was in the west coast offense he should be able to throw the ball blindfolded basically because receivers should be where he expects them so i think you'll see kind of a hybrid but probably 70 west coast type things maybe 30 um you know the evolved mcveigh we were we heard from the coordinators today and you hear patrick graham talk about the players here and you he just like can't help but smile yeah and i think he mentioned multiple times in the 15 minutes he was with you guys just his respect for the job that omar khan and the front office have done about the level of talent that is here and i think the area where that shines through is just what this dealers have along the defensive line just the sheer depth the bodies and the body types compared to what he had in vegas last year i mean you look at the numbers last season the raiders were playing with stacked boxes and just having to commit so many resources to the run because of the players that they had up front.

53:25Robert Mays: Here, it's just completely different. And Patrick Graham is one of those guys that I remember talking to him when he was the Raiders defense coordinator, I remember two or three years ago. And he was somebody that said, it's going to be what the players do well. And he means it. That defense changes from year to year based on what the personnel looks like. So I'm just curious what a Patrick Graham defense looks like filtered through this level of defensive talent. What is your sense of what that marriage looks like so far? well you know the mike mccarthy made it clear that he still wants to embrace the history of the steelers in the three four defense and so you're seeing that you're still seeing you know the oaky front with the three down linemen with the outside linebackers walk down to the line of scrimmage that's still very much a part of what the steelers do but i think one of the more interesting things is what they're going to do with tj watt and every year at this time we're talking about they're going to move tj watt around august baby they're going to be unpredictable you He's not going to be just rushing over the right tackle.

54:22And then October, November roll around and what do you know? TJ Watt is only rushing over the right tackle every single snap. And TJ acknowledged that some of that is because he has been stubborn. Yeah. And unwilling to change and go out of the area that he's become one of the best defensive players over the last decade. and what he talked about was within Patrick Graham's defense, he doesn't have a choice because some of it is just built into the front structure. And so I think that you will see TJ moving around a little bit more. I also think that an interesting part of this is how is he finding ways to put all three outside linebackers on the field at the same time?

55:02They just gave Nick Herbig a huge four-year$100 million extension. They paid a guy that has never even been a starter huge money. you got to use them in some ways and so i think that not only are you going to see some of those overload fronts where you've got you know two uh interior defensive linemen with three outside linebackers on the field together you know you're also going to see instances on rundowns or earlier downs where they find ways to put all all three on the field even if that means at times kind of almost what looks like a four three look in a way where nick herbig is off ball that's not going to be their go-to scheme but they're finding wrinkles basically you know and and so i think that you're

55:43Robert Mays: going to just see an evolution to what the steelers do jaylen ramsey still is not practicing and i think that one of my big questions about just this team in general is where would jaylen ramsey play what would that role look like without him being on the field there's really no way to glean that and so what does that mean so that so they have talked about it and you know they've talked about charles woodson in the past and different type of player different history but they talked about when they moved him to the slot corner, nickel corner, what the Steelers call in their vernacular the star, which is pretty, you know, a lot of teams call that the star position, that he just had a lot of success because being closer to the line of scrimmage, he was able to be more impactful.

56:21That's what they envision Jalen Ramsey's primary role to be. And this is a team that they want to be able to play, you know, their nickel to 12 personnel. We've seen that a lot during training camp. And I think Jalen Ramsey is going to be a big piece of that. So I think that's going to be his primary role. The real question is, what are they doing the base? Is he their free safety? Because you look at their safeties, you know, I think Jaquan Brisker and Deshaun Elliott both have versatility, but they both are better closer to the line of scrimmage. What does that mean in different situations? Does that mean that then Ramsey in the base defense becomes your post safety?

57:01That might be how it eventually turns out.

57:03Robert Mays: Last two things for you. especially on defense, because I think on offense, we know what the questions are. What are your questions about the defense? What are your points of concern about this group? Because personnel-wise, I think that it has a chance to be a really exciting collection of pieces. Well, I think one thing that interests me about the defense is Patrick Graham has... Okay, so when he was hired in Pittsburgh, there were a lot of people that just looked at the numbers and were like, wait, they're hiring this coordinator that his numbers are right near the middle of the league. but his reputation is much stronger than those stats would suggest those teams are in the middle of the league with very very little defense exactly so so you have a guy that got this job it is in this opportunity because he was able to do a lot with a little yeah now they've handed him the most expensive defense in the league for the fifth consecutive year and this is a group that has not always played up to his collective paycheck.

58:01And so can he help them become an elite defense? A year ago, they were talking about being a historic defense. The words coming out of Mike Tomlin's mouth, they were nowhere close to that. And I kind of look at it like... If this team is going to, you know, Sean Payton is in his 60s and having success in his second act. If Mike McCarthy is going to have a similar story here in his 60s, it's going to be because of the defense.

58:31Robert Mays: There's a lot of parallels there, too. Vance Joseph is the reason in a lot of ways why, you know, Sean Payton is having success with Denver and why they came so close to, you know, making a real run at the Super Bowl with a backup quarterback because of that defense. So same thing, I think, with with this team that as much as there's focus on Aaron Rodgers and Mike McCarthy in this marriage, really, a lot of it comes down to can Patrick Graham get this defense to be close to elite. Any guys that have just opened your eyes a little bit with the way that they play, that might be a little bit surprising to people who aren't here every day.

59:06You know, I don't know that it's totally surprising, but Derek Harmon, the first round pick a year ago, he looks really good during training. Music to my ears. uh i mean he he suffered an injury last year during the preseason and i think he was kind of battling that it's his rookie year he's been really dominant um in a lot of cases so i think that i think he's been really good um you know they have a little bit of a different vision for why a black you know he's six foot five nearly 340 pounds the old staff thought of him as like a four eye in their base defense the steelers think of him as a nose that's kind of interesting um you know those are those are two of the guys on the defensive side of the ball then the other one you know peyton wilson you know because for him i've been a big fan of him since he came into league incredible you know speed and sideline to sideline ability he plays fearlessly um but he hasn't been able to be impactful on rundowns because he's you know lighter body type.

1:00:09And so they have been giving him opportunities in the base defense. And I think that's going to be a question for this group. Like, you know, you asked me before about what's a question on this team. The inside linebacker position, I think is a bit of a question mark because, you know, they always had like Patrick queen rangey coverage guy. And then next to him, the Landon Roberts, big thumper. They don't really have that guy on this team. And so, you know, can Peyton Wilson take that step forward and be that guy?

1:00:35Robert Mays: My to Fabo. Always appreciate the time, sir. great to chat with you. We will do it again very soon. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Joining us now from outside the very new sparkling Highmark Stadium, it is our Bills Rider at the Athletic Jobasca. How are you doing, my friend? How are you? I'm doing great. It is definitely, we were just talking, it is definitely weird to look at the new building and then see rubble. It really is just a pile of rubble. I wasn't sure what I expected because obviously say I haven't been around here. And so I saw the new one and I was like, where's the old stadium?

1:01:08Robert Mays: And it's like, oh, it's that pile of debris sitting next to it in a parking lot. It most certainly is. But yeah, having been in the new stadium a couple of times, it's definitely not something that Buffalo has ever had before, if you had the pleasure of being in Buffalo. But it is a pretty cool thing for everyone in the area that has been waiting for this moment for that building to get built. Let's start where you and I, our conversation ended as practice was going on today. I think you could make a very serious argument that Jim Leonard is the most important assistant coach in the NFL this year.

1:01:39Robert Mays: Because even if you're looking at some of the other teams that have changed, maybe Mike McDaniel, those are probably the two that I would say, where you have new coordinators on Super Bowl teams. You could throw out some other impossible examples, like the Ravens have a new offensive coordinator, but their offense has been good enough and is talented enough that I think the gap is still fairly small between where an average guy would get and what Declan Doyle would get. With the Bills specifically, if you look at the defensive talent, there aren't a lot of field-tilting players here. There's some good guys, but there isn't an overwhelming level of talent.

1:02:09Robert Mays: For the Bills to be the team that they want to be, that Super Bowl odds say they probably should be, it seems like Jim Leonard is going to have to have this unit playing at a higher level than the talent might indicate. What is your thought there in terms of like how important he is to what this bill's off but what this bill season is going to feel like i 100 agree with you like this is if we're talking about variables this year um with with the bills i mean joe brady is certainly one of them but like jim leonard is instituting a completely new defensive scheme so and he's doing it with completely new players almost from what they had last year because there was a lot of defensive turnover natural because of free agency and whatnot.

1:02:49But yes, this is, and you look across the board, how easily are these guys going to transition to this defense and how good, because Jim Leonard is a really impressive guy. I think he has head coach potential. How good is he to mask all the deficiencies? I joked with you, he by himself might be the difference between the Bills being a top 15 unit and somewhere in the 20s this year, just because the talent disparity, they really lack in depth along the defensive line like they don't really have that crazy edge rusher that you know we've been talking about for years here inside linebacker was an issue cornerback two could be an issue safety depth could be an issue so there's just a lot of like stuff that it all piles up to where if you got a great coach sometimes he can mask it all and that's i think what the bills are banking on that his scheme and his in in-game play calling will be able to take him through it's not even

1:03:39Robert Mays: just that they're going from one scheme to the other it's they're going from a scheme that they've lived in since 2017. We're going on a decade of seeking out a certain type of body, playing a certain way, and now you're transitioning to such a different way of playing with a roster that, for the most part, was designed to play in a different system. So as you're thinking about the guys who have the biggest transition, where it might be the biggest acclimation period and the toughest, who comes to mind for you and what has that looked like for those guys so far yeah um a lot of it has been like back roster type of depth guys more than anything i think the guy that we talked about during practice was greg rousseau that you know what's what is exactly he going to be i had a big question throughout the entire offseason like okay is he going to be the four i or is he going to be stand-up rusher because he has the body if you tack some weight on it like they did with landon jackson this year to be a four i in in this defensive scheme but they decided right right before the draft that greg rousseau was going to be outside linebacker all the way through and so that was that was a big thing um outside of him i just generally have some questions about like what this whole thing is going to look like because for those that were unfamiliar with sean mcdermott scheme last year very zone heavy um you know just a lot of disguising uh before the four down nickel a lot of zone and disguise yeah the nickel was basically a linebacker and he really didn't do much coverage so man-to-man coverage unless they really needed him to that's the big difference I think there's going to be so much more man-to-man coverage and so it brings up some obvious questions like Christian Benford I think he's an outstanding player but what is he going to be in as a you know man corner that much more often this year Maxwell Harrison who's slotted to be their number two guy after kind of a an up and down rookie season injury and play both having a factor in that is he going to be able to withstand the physicality which is my biggest question for him and do they have the depth to withstand it at that position too uh on top of that safety is a completely different ball game it's not just you know the the interchangeable stuff anymore like there's going to be a lot of times where these cornerbacks are going to be out on an island and these safeties are going to be forced to drop down into man-to-man coverage do they have the guys for it and that's that's basically my whole question about this defense.

1:05:53Do they have the guys to do what they want to do?

1:05:55Robert Mays: At safety specifically, we're in an unfortunate spot right now where Cole Bishop was not practicing. CJ Gardner-Johnson's been a little bit banged up, so they've already had to dig into that safety depth. I'm so interested in the idea that CJ Gardner-Johnson, who's played a lot of nickel over the last several years. I mean, the Bears signed him last year because Kyler Gordon got hurt. And so the idea of him starting the season at safety in a defense where he's going to be playing a lot more man coverage, Does that mean that Cole Bishop is the post safety in a lot of those looks? That position and the flexibility and the depth there, maybe even more than the defensive line, would probably be the first place my mind goes if I were a Bills fan when I'm asking, are we set up to play this way?

1:06:32Yeah. I will say the one player that they targeted right to begin free agency, D. Alford, I think he's a real fine for them. And he fits this thing perfectly.

1:06:40Robert Mays: They are very happy with him so far. I think that what he was asked to do in Atlanta, where it's a lot of matchy coverages. And what Jim Leonard, I think, is he understands this because the slots that they had in Denver, Jaqueline McMillan wasn't a big guy in a world where the slots are getting bigger. And I think as more of these teams are trying to isolate these smaller slot corners when you have them in the run fit, the Broncos and, to my understanding, the Bills have little mechanisms built in in order to remove that from the table. And so it sounds like D. Alford is a guy who can play a lot of man coverage, and the run defense concerns, they have ways to kind of mask that in the same way that they were able to do with the Broncos.

1:07:16Yeah, because with the last defense here, the nickel was basically the guy that had to charge in and be that third thumping linebacker, you know, nine times out of ten. When, you know, the defensive line wasn't in a certain alignment to where, you know, it was conducive to get the stop right then and there. So, yeah, Alfred has been awesome. I mean, even just in coverage one on one, like it's it's night and day with what they had at nickel last year. Taron Johnson was a really great player for them for years and years. Perfect fit for the last defense. But they needed something a little bit different.

1:07:45And so I understood that decision to move forward. So, yes, he's going to be someone that, weirdly enough, they're going to have to lean on in this defense because they're just there's just so much new. And there's other guys that they'll have to lean on to to help that transition, like Bradley Chubb, who was brought here from from playing that scheme for basically his entire career. Deion Walker, I think it's going to go well for him on the defensive line at Oliver. I think it's him playing for I is going to give him a lot more opportunities. so it it really is just a how much can all the rest of the guys catch up and how much can leonard mask all of the hiccups that they could have with specific coverages how much dime are they going to play how much how much blitzing are they going to do how much man coverage are they going to be comfortable with with the current cornerback room so there's just so many different levers that he can pull here which i am just fascinated to see what he does all season long and he's got two huge tests to begin the season and then the Texans and Lions like okay giddy up let's see it

1:08:42Robert Mays: I think that that Oliver part is where I would start with like how this defense might feel a little bit different just because it's they've said this both publicly and privately that at Oliver was somebody that they thought they could have a slightly different vision for him within this defense than they did previously can we get more one-on-ones for our best pass rusher can it be a little bit less predictable understanding where he's going to be and we weaponize him a little bit more that sounds great but I also think there's a pathway to that actually happening. All those questions you just asked, like, how much man are they going to play?

1:09:12Robert Mays: How much are they going to blitz? I think that the man coverage stuff might be a little bit tamped down compared to what happened in Denver, simply because Patrick Sertan isn't walking through that door for this team, even if Christian Benford is a good player. The pressure stuff, I expect to see that. I think that this will be a heavy pressure team in the same way that the Broncos were, in part, because they have to be. They just don't have that one guy. And so I do think that we're going to see the pass rush manifest in a slightly more creative way than it did over the last few years. Let's put it that way.

1:09:43Yeah. Less dependence on one of these edge rushers to finally pop. Yeah. And more on the fingers crossed, guys. I know they've been holding the light on for Greg Rousseau for years and years. And he's a good player. Don't get me wrong. And I have been like the the number one put my fist into the earth like he's playing on the wrong side guy for the last three years because he has been because they've mostly been rushing him from the right side against left tackles. They've got him mostly at left outside linebacker going up against right tackles. And it's just so much easier for him. You can tell it's what he played in college throughout.

1:10:17And, you know, if there is a year that he's going to pop, he's going to have a little bit more space. this could be the one but we've been saying that for years and years and with with greg rousseau and maybe he's just a good player rather than a great player but you know they're they're hoping that he's of the great variety the guy on the defensive line that i'm most intrigued by just

1:10:34Robert Mays: because he is the one that's making a huge transition positionally they drafted landon jackson to be a 4-3 defensive and long the same again the types of guys we typically saw drafted for this system under sean mcdermott and he's now moving inside and it sounds like he has a real chance to be that other kind of three, four defensive end when they're out there with the starting off starting defense. It sounds like him and TJ Sanders. It's kind of a little battle going on right now. And you noted today, I mean, Landon Jackson was in there with the starters and it really does feel like he has a chance to be a part of that group of that five in their base defense when the season gets going.

1:11:09It's crazy because they drafted Sanders and Jackson back to back last year, not thinking that they were going to play the same role. But here we are. But Landon Jackson, he's tacked on at what seems like 15, 20 pounds. this was the exact conversation i had in my brain about greg rousseau in this off season but landon jackson has actually done all that and they've they've invested in that way into him and i think it's suited him well you can definitely tell the length he's got super long arms the length it's insane it's it it does go well against guards as opposed to what he was having to deal with against tackles uh down in and down out last year um and then on top of this i think he might be slightly more of a physical player than TJ Sanders is right now.

1:11:52And I think that might be generating what this competition is all about, because where it started at training camp, Jackson was kind of running with the threes and just been working his way up, working his way up. Like Sanders has mostly been with the ones, but Landon Jackson, he might have a chance to play a little bit more than maybe we thought heading in, but we need to see it in preseason games and everything like this. Everything looks good this time of year. And, but they, they have to be pleasantly surprised by his transition so far.

1:12:17Robert Mays: The other guy, I'm sure they're pleasantly surprised by Caleb Elenzo, who drafted in the fourth round, the off-ball linebacker. I mean, he's been working with the ones. It sounds like he has a real chance to be the guy next to Terrell Bernard. I've, from what I've heard from the outside, he's making a play every day. He did it again today. Yeah. He had like a crazy run-through play where the offense is actually getting a little bit pissed off because he's flying around the way that he is. But Spencer Brown wanted to punch him in the face, I think. And that's honestly, though, I think this defense needs a little bit And so, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

1:12:44Robert Mays: It really does seem like he's been the conversation of camp so far and that justifiably because he's probably going to be in their plans very early on. Yeah, without question. Caleb B. Larmzor, when they drafted him, you know, going through, I knew inside linebacker was going to be a lean of theirs in the draft and going through and looking at measurables, what they're looking for, everything like that. He was one of three guys that I thought were just going to be a perfect fit for what they want to do. Trotter was another huge one, but he went way earlier than I think they were expecting to. So that's kind of the reason why they took Igbenosan, the corner in the second round.

1:13:18But Caleb Elamzor has been outstanding. The size is what stands out. And the thing is, he's not like super big either. Like he's 234, I think, but that's still notably bigger than what they've had at inside linebacker. Like Terrell Bernard, I think he's 220 would be kind. And you need some size and you need some thump in this defense. And that's been somewhat lacking for Bernard over the years. And he's dealt with injuries, but that's been an issue. Dorian Williams, he's in the final year of his rookie deal. And is he going to start? He's kind of of the 228. He's still kind of undersized, but a little bit more physicality than Bernard plays with.

1:13:58So if they have an answer to the test at inside linebacker, which they sorely need, then that is a huge thing for this defense because it is so much more important to them I think this year to nail that than what they had last year the defense is where so much of my

1:14:11Robert Mays: intrigue with this team lies when you go to the other side of the ball what's different I mean like what are your big questions about how things are gonna like as you look at the offense right now and the things that you want answered between now and week one what's at front of mind for you because it really kind of seems like we're running the same shit back that we did last year plus DJ Moore let's get going I want to see if they're actually going to commit to DJ Moore as a near every snap player and that's something I joked with you we haven't heard the term everybody eats from the Bills at all this summer and we heard it non-stop appealing these days yes non-stop for two years when Sean McDermott was here and Joe Brady was the offensive coordinator and they really didn't have a DJ Moore or a Stefan Diggs Moore has been really good at camp so far he's a different type of number one receiver than what they had with digs but it's it might be good different because he opens up some verticality that they really lacked for the entire two seasons that really led to the bills becoming such such this rush heavy uh forefront we're going to punch you in the mouth offensive line sort of thing and they're still going to do a bit of that but i think this will help them be a little bit more versatile a little bit more unpredictable and especially if they actually commit to him being 80 to 90 percent of snaps player because that's what he's been his entire career Carolina Chicago hasn't mattered that's where he has landed when he's been healthy so I'm really interested by that and the other thing and this is what I said we need to talk about on this show what is the role for Dalton Kincaid going to be this year it is it is like written in the sky here in Buffalo like how much will Dalton Kincaid Kincaid play can he block well enough to be out there more than 45 percent of the snaps is his knee going to hold up but i'm telling you this he's looked good so far in camp he looked good last year i know i know but they were a little i mean during the season he looked good last year i mean like when he was on the field last year his per play numbers are very good right now truly is just a matter of how healthy can he stay and how much can he play based on the limitations that we're talking about they were in load management year for him all year and even into the playoffs they were in load management uh mode with him and can they get away from that he's gotten a little bit bigger this offseason uh best shape of my life season as as our colleagues like to put it um but it's to me he is one of those uh switch flippers for this entire offense yeah if they look legitimately different it's because dalton kincaid has a bigger role but how long have we been saying this robert like we have been it's like okay he had this really impressive rookie year and then it seems like he's on the precipice of becoming one of the next big things at tight And then all of a sudden the knee stuff starts and then he can't get on the field.

1:16:50He can't block because of the knee stuff a little bit, too. And they drafted Jackson Hawes. So that role kind of got replaced. And even last year when they used him, his his per route metrics were amazing. But like the amount of times they called a run play when Dalton Kincaid was on the field is was probably in like the 20 percent range. And it just was not unpredictable whatsoever. And I think that's something they want to get closer to. So those are my possible.

1:17:13Robert Mays: Do you think there's a world where he can be on the field a little bit more? or the offense can be a little bit more diversified? Or do you think that's August Fool's goal? I think it could. I think if they are able to access a little bit more play action this year, I think that is a realm in which they can kind of work him in a little bit more. They've got to give him some help, though. Tie him next to Spencer Brown. Just let Spencer Brown do the heavy lifting most of the time. Maybe give him a fullback to his side, something like that. I do think there are capabilities for it. But when it's 11 personnel, he is one of their one of their best players, one of their best pass catchers.

1:17:51Him and DJ Moore are their two best right now. And if they can access that more frequently this year, I think that makes things and their passing attack legitimately different than what it was last year.

1:18:00Robert Mays: The only real unsettled question is now the interior of the offensive line. David Edwards moves on. They have an injury at center right now. McGovern's going to miss a little bit of time. What are we sorting through there? And what do you think the five looks like when we end up getting there for week one? Yeah, as long as McGovern is good to go, because we don't have any injury updates on him just now. We're recording this on August 10th, just to heads up for people. He'll be at center. The left guard is the one spot that's up in the air. It's between Alec Anderson, who they've grown in-house, started on the practice squad, was an undrafted out of UCLA, undrafted tackle out of UCLA, has kind of played.

1:18:36Robert Mays: Going from the, I worked myself into the jumbo package, now put me in the starting five. The David Edwards route, right? But yeah, Alec Anderson, and he is very popular on the team because he talks that shit every single day. There was one practice where he got into it with Caleb Elarms or and he's like, yeah, I love fights. Shout out to him. I was able to go over there and punch him in the face twice and choke him out a little bit. I'm like, just a offensive line answer to a T there. But Alec Anderson, if it were me, I think he's probably going to win the job. Austin Corbett is his competition starting experience.

1:19:10Brandon Bean loves to bring in these types of guys every single year. To me, Corbett struggles with speed. What we've seen so far, Anderson has a higher ceiling and he has the camaraderie with Deion Dawkins and Connor McGovern. That's why I think they're going to go that way and then maybe have Corbett be their top interior reserve guy. But they definitely have questions with reserve offensive line. But in the year 2026, who the heck doesn't in the NFL?

1:19:33Robert Mays: Let's talk about the big picture stuff briefly before we get out of here. the Joe Brady version of the Buffalo Bills and how that has felt different than what the Sean McDermott versions did. Because sometimes when we do this, when you have an in-house promotion and I just did it, where it's like, no, the offense is going to be the same. I know what Joe Brady's role in all of this is. Joe Brady's role in all of this is not the same. He's not the head coach of the Buffalo Bills. What has felt different here? Do you feel like it's a welcome change in terms of hearing a new voice at the front of the room?

1:20:04Robert Mays: What has that been like from your perspective thus far? It's just so different because he's just got a whole different vibe than McDermott. And I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing right now. And I think that's I think that's completely fair to say, because what you know what you had with McDermott was, you know, you had a solid floor every single year. And you did have the potential to reach into that ceiling to access a Super Bowl appearance. Like how close were they so many different times? But the fact that they didn't is why he isn't here anymore with Joe Brady. I think the variability of how things could go this year are wildly different than what they had last year.

1:20:45And again, I think that's completely fair to say, because Sean McDermott in the nine years he was here, he ironed out all these game day things. Like he went through an evolution where he really didn't touch fourth downs to where he was one of the finger quotes, aggressive coaches in the league to actually go through with it on fourth down. like how about all these decision making things you have to do on the fly when you have 15 seconds to decide this is all stuff that joe brady has to work out and you can't simulate it during the you can but you can't it's it's so much different when the bullets are flying in the regular season so these those are the biggest questions that i have and i want to see when adversity hits because one thing that mcdermott was great at when they went through some losing spells he was able to snap them out of it so quick if they hit a losing spell i want to see how this team reacts because everything is is hunky-dory right now in in buffalo and why not they've got a brand new stadium they've got a brand new coach they've they're they're just coming off a however many playoff years they've had in a row where they're knocking on the door they've got one of the best quarterbacks in the nfl but everything's different everything's exciting but what happens when it just gets remotely stale how does he respond and those are my big questions heading into the season and that's why I think this year is just so fascinating it's a major bet that the bills made and are they going to be able to see it out and will it be better than what they had and how much of it is going to fall on the shoulders of number 17 Josh Allen who we haven't even said the name of what do we need to say I know you know that's kind of the thing so we know what Josh Allen is we know

1:22:15Robert Mays: what Josh Allen is within this offense like nothing is changing on that front and like it's about everything else around him getting to a level where they can get this thing over the top and i understand josh allen turned the ball over four times in a playoff game on the whole in the last several years josh allen has been the one doing a lot of the heavy lifting for the organization now i think it's a question of whether everything else the pass catchers that they put around him whether the defense can play at that level have they done enough to tweak things around him as the offense stays the same for this to be the year that feels just different enough for them to kick Yeah.

1:22:47And I will say, you know, I brought up a lot of what ifs with Brady and like maybe a negative connotation. I can also see a world where this thing just goes off like a firework into the sky because you maybe sometimes a fresh perspective that with just a little bit of new and a touch of old is sometimes a good thing, especially for a lot of the guys that have carry over the building. So it's it's really just it's like maybe the ceiling is just a touch higher than what they had, but it's just it's the floor is lower. So that's why I'm like, what is this going to be like? Are they going to be a locked in playoff team?

1:23:19Are they going to win the division year? I this is the first time I'm like, I'm not sure. Yeah, they're probably going to make the playoffs. But can I sit here and say they're absolutely going to make the playoffs no matter what this year? There's just too much up in the air. Leonard is brand new. Defense is brand new. Joe Brady's brand new. I mean, there's just so much new that you just don't know how it's going to go. And I will be enthralled to watch and get a front row seat of it every week.

1:23:40Robert Mays: It is a fascinating situation. I cannot wait to watch the defense and see what it ultimately looks like and whether it does end up becoming the sort of unit that can help this team get over the top. Joe Biscaia, always appreciate the time, sir. Great to see you. We'll do this again very soon. Sounds good, Robert.

1:23:57Hi, this is Becca Moore for the girls podcast. All right. A quick shout out to our presenting sponsor, Apple Cash. Summer is here, which means the group chats are already spiraling with festival and summer plans. And we all know the worst part of being the one who fronts the money for the passes or housing. That's why this year we're only using Apple Cash. It's a super easy way to settle up because you can do it right in messages. Just tap the plus sign to get started. And the best part is you can spend the money you get right away anywhere Apple Pay is accepted. Every payment is secure and protected by Face ID, Touch ID, or Passcode, and your transactions are never shared on a public feed.

1:24:27Set up your Apple Cash today in the Wallet app. Apple Cash services are provided by Green.Bank, member FDIC. Terms apply. Investing with Schwab is like spending a Saturday at a great farmer's market. You can fill your reusable tote with a bit of everything. Maybe you go for some free-range, self-directed investing. Or perhaps you pick up a few farm-fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full-service wealth management. Mix, match, and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place.

1:25:06Visit schwab.com to learn more. Thumbtack presents Tile Trouble. Every single time I use my sink, I make eye contact with the uneven grout on my kitchen backsplash. The crooked corners eye me and I'm haunted by more tiling questions than I thought possible. What kind of pro can fix a backsplash? Can I replace one cracked tile or should I replace them all? What? What if I just use Thumbtack? I can hire top-rated pros, read reviews, and compare prices with a tap, all on the app. Thumbtack knows homes. Download the app today.

1:25:43Robert Mays: Joining us now, it is our Browns writer here at The Athletic, Zach Jackson. How are you doing, sir? I'm good. I think it's day 11, 12, maybe 19 today. I'm not sure, but onward we trudge. Yeah, we have some construction going on in the background. It's the nature of the beast this time of year. There's a lot of buildings being renovated and expanded. So apologies if you guys can hear that. Let's start with the only place we can't start. It is August 11th as we record this. Where are we at with the quarterback situation? Where do you think the Browns want to be by the time this whole thing ends?

1:26:16I think they want to be in next year's draft. And I don't say that lightly. I really mean that. Where they are, I think, is pretty close to even. because I don't think that one has really outplayed the other, at least not significantly. Certainly for the first week, Shador Sanders was a much better thrower. And a week ago, Robert, I might have told you that Deshaun Watson looked unplayable. I still can't believe they're even considering going down this road. But three of the last four practices is the best he's ever had out here. So I think they have to get into the games for multiple reasons, one being that Watson hasn't played in two years, two being that nobody's played in this offense.

1:26:50This offensive line is all new, and I could go on and on and on with all these things. So next week, the Bills come in here for a joint practice, and then that is followed by the second preseason game. So I think after that, we'll have an idea, and they almost have to make a decision by them within three weeks of the game. But right now, if they made an announcement today, I would not be stunned either way.

1:27:11Robert Mays: Yeah, it does feel like it's not just lip service. We want to see them play in the games. I do feel like because Deshaun hasn't played that much, I think they need the game reps to have a better feel for what he's going to look like and what they're going to get out of him. It's an interesting set of considerations on both sides. Because like you said, Shadour is a better thrower of the football when it comes to accuracy, things like that. I think there's a good argument for that. Deshaun Watson is a better athlete. And I think some of the things that this offense is asking the quarterback to do with the line of scrimmage, it's not as though Shadour can't do that stuff.

1:27:42Robert Mays: But when you've only played in the league for two years, you just haven't been exposed to very much. And so I think the mental load that they're asking, that may be a point in Deshaun Watson's favor. But it really does seem like this isn't a Viking situation where we kind of had a leader in the clubhouse the whole time and we're going through this charade for whatever reason. It really does seem like, again, on August 11th, this thing is not settled and they have not made a decision. Going all the way back like six months now, people started saying, listen, you're reading this wrong. Like they're going to play Watson.

1:28:10It was such a nonstarter for me and it still is. Why are the Browns where they are right now? Because they made the Deshaun Watson trade. It's not the only bad move, but this thing is sunk. They gave all these resources and he has played 19 games, three of them. Well,

1:28:23Robert Mays: I think if I were trying to parse what the argument is for doing this, I would say it's two different things. Typically, if you had a young quarterback and the argument would be why you would go to that guy is, well, it's an unrealized ceiling, right? Like there's something weighed on the other side, potentially for us. That's it's worth going down that road. I don't think Shadour has that high of a ceiling just in terms of the physical skill set he's bringing to the position. So I think it discounts that argument a little bit. And I also think that they're open to the idea of being surprised by Deshaun Watson, in part because of how many surprising quarterback stories we've seen over the last few years.

1:28:58Robert Mays: Sam Darnold, Baker, these guys have looked different in different circumstances. And so I know they've seen a lot of Deshaun Watson, but they haven't seen Deshaun Watson in this offensive system. They haven't seen Deshaun Watson with these receivers. I think that's the company line. I don't know how much I believe that, But I think that's what they're trying to tell themselves a little bit for why they might be willing to explore this hallway when so many of us are like, shut the door. Like, I'm done with this. Like, I appreciate and respect and understand that Todd Monk is like, I'm not burdened by the past here.

1:29:28I wasn't here. He's not burdened by much. He's real good right now. Right. So I understand that thought. But he has been so bad and he just hasn't read defenses and he hasn't stayed healthy and he's turned the ball over and all of these things. That being said, he came out in the spring, looked healthy, obviously should be motivated, should be fresh. What they want to do on this offense is undoubtedly fits his skill set. He's the guy that sunk the ship. The other guy has a chance to be an average starting quarterback, has some plus traits, doesn't have a ton of plus traits, did some good things in bad circumstances last year, and has done some good things out here.

1:30:04Shador is a very accurate thrower of the football, and I think a natural playmaker without being super fast, without having a super big arm. He's got a lot to learn. He's not a great thrower of the football every day. I think everybody is like, and this is what they've created. We're living and dying on every pass out here.

1:30:22Robert Mays: So I think the decision... Wouldn't it be so nice like two years from now if that doesn't happen? I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be here. So I think the decision for right now comes down to, you know, how much does Monk can trust Shador to command the huddle? but I think they know Watson's finally out of the plans next year. He's on this team right now because they can't afford to cut him. They don't have the salary cap space. What happens with Shador? I don't know. So to me, the most sensible thing is always let Shador sink or swim, let him get out there, improve on what he needs to improve on, show you what he's good at, show you what he's not good at and get to next year.

1:30:57There's a lot of good young players on this team. This is nothing like 10 years ago. When it's one of the 31 stuff that's going on, but enough to win this year at any level. I don't know. Play for next year. You traded Miles Garrett. You've made these decisions. By November, half of this roster, maybe 30 guys on this roster, are going to be first or second year players. Are you really going to win anything, even if one of the quarterbacks plays over his head?

1:31:18Robert Mays: Probably not. And I think that's probably a good way of thinking about it. And to me, what is the upside case for each one of those guys? I think you can make a very serious argument that the theoretical upside case for Shador, just because of the timeline and when he's going to be here, that's actually a very good point. You mentioned this. there are good players on this roster. And I think that to me is the biggest difference of I'm sure what it feels like to you guys every day. Where last year, it's what we hope, like the combination of Cedric Tillman and Jerry Judy is going to get us there.

1:31:46Robert Mays: And now, I mean, based on what I've been hearing, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the young receivers in Denzel Boston specifically have been the most exciting part of what camp has looked like every day. Arguably, or probably inarguably on the offensive side, the best player since the spring and just watching out there. And obviously, we had the same head coach here for six years. So little things of practice are different. But the big thing three weeks in is the NFL wide receivers on this team. And they bring juice and they make plays and they jump and catch passes that are off target. And they get pissed off when they don't catch it because they have caught almost everything.

1:32:16Concepcion can really run. He had drops in college. He had drops in the spring. I'm not jinxing him, but he has not dropped one out there. Like Denzel Boston had a really bad drop last week and it stood out because he's caught everything else. He's jumped over people. He's big. He's fast. Like I pictured he was like this big lumbering guy. He's not. He's long. He's lean. He's confident. Isaiah Bond wasn't here for training camp last year. Came here under these strange circumstances. He has talent. I don't know if he's going to be a star. He has talent. And here's Judy. Again, Mike Watson's still on the team because she can't afford to cut him.

1:32:45But this is a guy that in spurts has been a really good NFL wide receiver.

1:32:49Robert Mays: When he's your third receiver, it's a very different world than when he's your first receiver. And it really does seem like we've kind of arrived at that point with this group. Yeah. And so this is who's going forward. Jerry Versa, who they brought in, obviously. But all the other guys are 21 or 22 right now. Right. And so you need a quarterback. You need luck. They got an offensive line mess that they created in their own doing. They put it off and put it off and put it off. But there's really good young players on this team at nearly every position group. Denzel Boston, it really does feel like he's just going to be their ex-receiver.

1:33:18Robert Mays: He's going to be in the plans from day one. The way I understand it is that you see the movement stuff. When he gets going, there's a lot to like about it. Just like little subtleties with him creating subtle separation with his hands. Just more nuance to his game. I think the question with him is going to be, if he's the X receiver, how much does he get stuck at the line of scrimmage if people are going to be physical with him? That was the concern in college. And it sounds like it's not that they're worried about it here, but that is like the last hurdle. Like, what does he look like in those situations?

1:33:44Robert Mays: Because that is probably going to determine what his ceiling is for him as a rookie player. Yeah, for all these guys, look, they have to get on the same page with the quarterback. They have to get on page with everybody else. But yeah, he is really like, like I said, he's been so much faster and smoother than we anticipated. You just hear big wide receiver. He didn't run pre-combine. and he slipped to the second round somehow. It's like, wow. And look, you get in a dangerous game when you start talking about if this, if that, and the draft. But they were locked in on Concepcion. And had someone else taken him, they were taking Boston right there.

1:34:15Somehow, 15 picks later, he was still there. I think they assumed it would be Boston

1:34:19Robert Mays: or Emmanuel McNeil-Warren in the second. Yes, and the fact that they got both of those guys, too. I don't think they ever imagined that would be possible. And so I think they're feeling pretty good about what that collection looks like. That extension of the offensive line, Obviously, you draft Spencer Fano in the top 10. From what I gather, the offensive line is it currently stands in the way that it's kind of shaken out. The final is going to be the left tackle. We have Zion Johnson at left guard, Elton Jenkins at right guard, Tevin Jenkins at center, Tevin Jenkins at right guard, and Titus Howard at right tackle.

1:34:47Robert Mays: Is that what it looks like from this game so far? Yeah, Tevin Jenkins missed about a week and a half of practice. So KT Leveston, who started seven games at tackle last year, has been there. They do like the rookie center, Parker Burlesford, but he's missed five or six practices with injury. My understanding is he was going to be in the mix if the thumb hadn't happened, which that's another win. The fact that he was going to potentially push to be one of those guys, even if it's not going to happen for him this year, that creates excitement. This team is on a multi-year timeline, right? And so what does the multi-year timeline look like?

1:35:16Robert Mays: The fact that the fifth round center looked good enough to be like, oh man, this guy, that's something that even for 2026, if that doesn't get realized, that's a good thing for 2027. Brailsford's going to play. Leveston should play. Austin Barber, the third round tackle, is going to play. This is about the future. And so they spent a lot of money to patch some things. Titus Howard and Elton Jenkins have been really good players in this league. They're 30. Their other teams moved on for other priorities. And it's not necessarily an indictment of those guys. It doesn't mean they can't play well.

1:35:43But this team let all the guys get old and hit free agency at one time. They tried to patch it together the last two years. It just didn't work out. So they made these big investments, and they need a couple of them to pay off.

1:35:53Robert Mays: The question about the offensive personnel, the last one that I think is something that maybe the biggest thing they're having to work through, their tight end situation other than Harold Fannin is pretty ugly right now. Do you think that's the most unsettled group as you look at it? Yeah, I think the offensive line is probably more unsettled just because we don't know. Sure. I think Fano is going to be a really good player, but he's a 21-year-old left tackle who hasn't played left tackle at all since he was 18 in the Big 12. And I will say this for the drafting they've done and for the personnel in general.

1:36:20We haven't talked about Harold Fannin yet, and he might be the best player. Yeah. Right. Denzel Boston has stolen the spotlight, And they kept fanning out of the spring because they're going to use him all the time here. This kid is so good. So, so, so good. So, yeah, they struggle right now to run heavy personnel groups because they just don't have the guys. They have some bodies. They have a young guy, seventh rounder, Ryan, who's probably going to be the fullback slash tight end. But fifth round tight end has not been in camp. Can't be in the plans right now. And they have other guys who just aren't that.

1:36:49So they're going to have to work around that. And I think you're probably going to see Concepcion and Bond play more. because of that. But we're still barely into seeing how they want to play offense. We have watched a quarterback competition, and we've watched that mesh with just what happens when a new coach comes in, and you're basically starting with everybody being new. Even Quinchan Judkins, who's also awesome, by the way, he wasn't here for training camp last year. So this is his first camp. Isaiah Bond had one week of camp. We watched Fannin in camp last year, and it's like, he's incredibly talented.

1:37:20But David Njoku's the veteran. This kid's 21. He's out there because he was just so good. They just were like, find a way, play him at fullback today, put him at quarterback. And they did all those things. And then it was like, finally, just throw him the ball because he's that good. So I think the temperature is so much better. And I think next February and March, there will be like real things to look and say, Hey, the Browns have a chance to be closer than you think. But right now I don't think they're going to win many games and I don't think they have to, they just need to continue to develop and evaluate these guys.

1:37:51A couple of them are probably going to be really good. There's going to be some adversity, even outside of quarterback. And we'll see. They shouldn't want to win seven games. They need to be picking high next April.

1:38:01Robert Mays: Fannin was incredible last year, and they built so much of the passing game through him. I guess my question, it's hard for you to answer this, but I'm curious what your initial read is. As we have more mouths to feed, how central to the passing game plan do you think Harold Fannin will be within this version of the offense? I think a lot. I think he has to be. And I would tell you that on the two days that Deshaun Watson really looked good on the practice field, the first pass both days was like a 10 or 12 yard rip down the middle to Harold Fannin. So it's like, all right, later we're later we're posting our clips of Boston and Concepcion did it again.

1:38:33But they're starting through him. And I think ideally they want to move him around. They want to hide him. They don't want him blocking people. 60 snaps a game. But like he is going to be involved in fantasy nerds like hit your wagon to Harold Fannin again because the volume is going to be incredible. On the defensive side of the ball, I think we're going to see more subtle changes than we saw on the offensive side of the ball.

1:38:54Robert Mays: You bring in a new defensive coordinator in Mike Grudenberg, but there are several members of this defensive staff that are being carried over. Pass game coordinator, defensive line coach. And so as what you've picked up on so far, what do you anticipate being different about the way that the Mike Grudenberg defense is going to play versus what we saw from Jim Schwartz? I think the big thing, and we've heard this more than we've seen this at this early stage, is they're talking about disguising more. Schwartz didn't disguise much. He did, but it was like, kind of here we come. And the other thing is teams spent six days a week worrying about Miles Garrett.

1:39:23And he's not here anymore. So I think probably you have to disguise some things. Denzel Ward looks awesome. Tyson Campbell looks awesome. They don't really have a third corner right now. Emmanuel McNeil-Warren is awesome already as a rookie. Just have to figure out the best way to play him. There's two starting safeties in front of him.

1:39:39Robert Mays: In terms of the deployment, I haven't watched practice yet. We're about to go out and watch it right now. What have we seen from him? So far, they're basically playing him. they're trying to teach him a basic position he's only mixed in with the ones okay i think after he goes out and lights up a preseason game or two they're gonna start where is that with the ones where is he playing um he's playing nickel safety okay okay okay but when he's out there with the twos and threes going through his normal rotation he's mostly playing deep okay but there's been a couple times where he has chased balls out and he looks like a corner like he he is so fast and rangy so you think it ultimately he could play nickel with the ones it's like his role early They're just kind of figuring that out.

1:40:15Carson Swessinger, who's arguably the best player on the defense now that Miles has gone, he hasn't been in camp at all. He's just got something minor, and they're not going to risk it. Yes. The guy's small, but he's awesome. It's Quincy Williams they brought in. You know, the one thing that doesn't get talked about, obviously, other than just the impact Miles had on everything, is Devin Bush had his best year last year. He really fed off of Miles and fed off the whole thing. So Quincy Williams comes in. He's connected to Rootenburg. He's been a solid player in this league for a long time. But that's still a guy that you miss because it was just a playmaker.

1:40:44And then a defensive tackle, they've had injuries. So we haven't really seen it. But once we get into the season and teams aren't triple teaming Miles Garrett and designing their whole game plan around stopping Miles Garrett, it'll be different. But just watching them go like Jared Verse, Mason Graham, those are some of the standout guys out here.

1:41:01Robert Mays: And they're young and they're ascending. Any other positional concerns? Third corner, you mentioned. And defensive line, Malik Collins is banged up right now. Anything else that they're sorting through? Just overall depth. They missed too many draft picks over the years. Either didn't have them for the Watson trade or screwed them up. Just figuring out that depth and then knowing what rookies looking good out here actually translates to the first month of the season. This is a team that plays six of the first nine on the road with a rookie head coach, maybe basically a rookie at QB, and all new guys.

1:41:32They could be okay and not win any of these games. Again, maybe they don't want to. Maybe it comes down to they don't have the guys, but they have the makings of a good defense and a real good running game, and that gives you a chance to win some of them. So do you get a bounce? Do you make a kick? Do you stay healthy? I just think right now when you look at the roster, it's like, good, good, promising, just not real deep in any one spot.

1:41:53Robert Mays: But good, promising, and exciting at some spots is drastically different. Especially at YBC. Over the last couple of years, drastically different. Drastically different. Anybody else that's kind of opened your eyes a little bit? Denzel Boston, you mentioned. Anybody that has just stood out over the first two weeks of camp that when you watch them every day, I'm going to be here for two hours. Yeah, Judkins looks healthy. That was a pretty significant injury. If you look at it, he has not always had the greatest return rate. And I just think, in general, him just being in camp has helped him. Concepcion has been overshadowed by Boston, but he looks really good too.

1:42:26Rookie receivers don't want to go over the middle, but he's not afraid. So he's little. He's going to get drilled around a little bit. But the whole tempo of practice, to me, being different, is based upon how good the receivers look because it was dreadful the last few years.

1:42:42Robert Mays: It's funny. Even after the draft, I'd reached out to people that worked here and when they made those picks and I was like, Fano and Concepcion were my two favorite players in the draft and they were like, ours too. Those are our two favorite players in the draft. So I'm more intrigued in the Browns rookie class than I think I would be for a team that's projected to win four and a half games. I'm locked into this. Let's talk a little bit about, before we get out of here, just the Todd Mocken experience to this point. For you guys specifically, I can't really imagine two people more different than Kevin Stefanski in front of a microphone and Todd Monkhan in front of a microphone.

1:43:14Robert Mays: How have you just felt his personality even over the first couple of weeks of camp? Because it's a different sort of personality. It is. And I think maybe he might come to regret saying, I can't stand shitty football. I can't stand shitty football. But he's made it clear what he's about. And there is, I've said it again and again, there's a tempo to practice. There's a directness in how he approaches things. And there's times he talks around answers just in what we do, and there's times he's like, look, we're going to get out there, and we're either going to get it right or we're not. He's very blunt.

1:43:45He's very direct. Jeff Surrybeck, who covers the Ravens in Baltimore, I reached out to him when they hired Todd, and he said, I like Todd, and I'll be glad to tell you more about it when we get together. He said, but the number one thing when he comes off the practice field, just watch him. He's not going to hide how he feels. You're going to know, was it a good practice? Was it a bad practice? Is he pissed off at a certain wide receiver? Did he think it was great? And I've been watching it since we first got out there in April. And I'm like, today I know how practice went.

1:44:09Robert Mays: And I think you could argue that that could go one of two ways. For a young team, I think that there's a chance they really buy into that kind of rawness that he's bringing. And he's a college coach. And so the idea that a lot of these kids are 21, 22, we're about to go to a two-hour and 15-minute practice. I think that there are elements of who he's been and what his background look like that do play well with the current construction of the roster. I think the question is going to be, one, how well does it play, but also how long does it play that well? I think he knew darn well what he was signing up for.

1:44:41And I think he brings a good mix of optimism, of confidence, of reality. But I do wonder if they're one and five and somebody says, hey, Todd, what happened on that third and three today? And he says, do you see who we have out there? I wonder how that's going to go. So maybe they won't be one and five.

1:44:56Robert Mays: But have you seen that schedule? he is a uh i was i was saying to todd today like the first time i ever talked to him was in that field house seven years ago when he was the offensive coordinator under freddie kitchens even then every conversation i've ever had with todd in that time since he's he's one of one like there is there would no one really like him and when it comes to the head coaches in the league now he is certainly one of one and again it's just another layer of intrigue where i hope it works out because i think it'd be fun for the league if he really became like a figure and a character and what the league felt like.

1:45:29Robert Mays: But he is going to be... It's going to be a different ride for this franchise and for you guys every day than it's been over the last few years. There's some days I'm like, he better be a miracle worker. And there's some days like, you know what? I like what I see. This is what football practice is supposed to look like. And this is what a conversation between coach and reporters is supposed to feel like. And so we assume that it's the same in the meeting rooms. I know... I'm not going to say I assume. I know he knows what he signed up for here. So I'm trying to judge and watch him outside of the quarterback battle.

1:46:00We're mostly glued to the quarterback battle. But it's not going to be a straight line here. They have played 12 times since 99. They've had at least three starting quarterbacks in the season, including each of the last three years. So my one prediction is this is going to make four. How's he going to handle that?

1:46:14Robert Mays: The last thing I'll say, I think there was some, maybe some opinions from the outside after the hire of like, is this one of those one and one and done type things where he's a 62-year-old head coach or however old he is. and we have a young roster, this is really just a stepping stone to the coach who's really going to be the guy that sees us into the next era. They don't see it that way. I don't think that's how they're looking at the Todd Monken experience here. I think they want this to work out. They're open to this working out. I've talked about it. I think there's a comparison you can easily make where what Bruce Arians did in Arizona, that is the best version of this.

1:46:46Robert Mays: And I think they're open to that. This is not a, eh, we had to get this guy because no one else wanted the job situation. I don't think that's how they're seeing. Well, when you look around here, you realize that anything is possible. And I think it's a fair question based on what's gone on. But yeah, no, I think that he is going to build. I think the offensive product is going to be better. And I think they're going to grow this year and develop. And I think there's an ideal scenario in there where they do that while only winning three or four games and really position themselves. They have the extra ammo from the miles trade by trading miles.

1:47:16They gave Todd Munkin a chance to build his own culture. So we'll see how they stay out of some of the things they've done before. And obviously you have to have at least semi-competent quarterback play. And there's no guarantee here on August 11th that they're going to have that.

1:47:29Robert Mays: There's a chance they don't. But as long as everything else around it is exciting, this season is a win for the Browns in a way that we have not had in quite a while. There's never been a better chance for... Let me say this. The AFC North has never been more open. And that's not to say that they can be a contender. But why wouldn't they be in every division game with even a little bit of good quarterback play? Zach Jackson, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always good to chat with you. We'll do it again very soon. See ya. All right, guys. That's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Zach Berman, to Joe Biscaglia, to Mike DeFabo, and to Zach Jackson.

1:48:02Robert Mays: Really enjoyed this swing of the training camp travel. We'll have four more of these conversations coming your way next week. I'll be in Cincinnati today when you guys are listening to this on Saturday. Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Detroit, Minnesota will be the next four stops. Really looking forward to that and for you guys to hear my conversations when I get to those places. For now, that's all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

1:48:52you farm fresh trades while you peruse. You can even get help from a dedicated advisor. That's full service wealth management. Mix, match, and change your mind whenever you want. Because at Schwab, you can invest your way. No matter your goals or appetite for investing, Schwab has everything you need, all in one place. Visit schwab.com to learn more.