We're going camping! Panthers, Rams, Chargers and Cowboys

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0:17Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Love getting started with our Beat Writer notebooks from training camp. Done these over the last few years as part of my training camp travels. Really something unique that we can provide here at The Athletic with all of the writers that we have covering these teams day to day. Started things off with four of our beat writers from four of my first five stops. Kicked things off with Joe Person in Carolina. Just a heads up, a little bit of context. That conversation with Joe happened on July 24th. It was the first stop that I made. And so obviously some things have happened since we recorded that discussion.

0:49Robert Mays: But just a little bit of context for things that might have shifted since then. After chatting with Joe, got a chance to talk with Nate Atkins. who is our new Rams writer at The Athletic. His first time on the show, really enjoyed chatting with him about the state of the Rams as they push for a Super Bowl. After that, our guy Daniel Popper, who has done a fantastic job covering the Chargers for many years, is now elevating into a national role. But man can't help himself. Was still at Chargers camp, still grinding away on the day that I was there. Always great to catch up with Pop. And then finally, our Cowboys writer here at The Athletic, John Machoda, discussing a huge season for the Cowboys where they are not afraid to talk about their Super Bowl aspirations.

1:31Robert Mays: Our first four of these got plenty more coming over the next few weeks. Please enjoy these discussions with our fantastic beats.

1:46Robert Mays: Day one. Well, you guys will be hearing this several days after we recorded, but for me, day one of the training camp travels. Very excited to be kicking things off in Charlotte with our Panthers reporter, Joe Person. Very good to see you, sir. I feel like I should take a before picture now and then have you send me one in three and a half weeks or however many long and just see how your beard is progressing and the circles under your eyes and all that. I'm mostly worried about whether I gain 20 pounds with all the meals that I will be eating over the next couple of weeks. I'm trying to be... It was funny at the beginning of the trip, I was like, I'm not going to go crazy.

2:22Robert Mays: Like maybe like three or four dinners over the two weeks. And then I'm like, well, I haven't been to Houston in a while. Like I want to try it. So obviously it turns into me having 12 meals in a row that I shouldn't be having. I still remember. And I will never forget the meal that we shared with several, a bunch of athletic colleagues on Massachusetts Avenue in Indianapolis. And you were like a composer or a director of an orchestra ordering. And it was great. And we were all just like, this robber is a man of many talents, including being a foodie. And I still think at some point in a future life or maybe you've done it in a past life that you could be a food critic, a restaurant critic.

3:07Robert Mays: I want food to be pure. I don't want it to be work. That's the thing for me. Also, I appreciate you giving me credit for that. When you order everything, there's no talent in that. It's just literally reading off all the items on the menu. But speaking of menus, speaking of getting the highest price things you can, a very expensive offseason for the Carolina Panthers as they, I guess, try to embark on the next phase of this franchise under Dan Morgan, under Dave Canales, where you're not a playoff team. You feel like you've reached a certain level of competency on both sides of the ball. Now this group has had a couple of years to really build out the roster.

3:43Robert Mays: I mean, just sitting there and talking to people today and looking at the depth chart physically and comparing it, especially on defense, to what it looked like two years ago. And then you think about some of the additions on offense. It's a team that, even if they had a losing record and made the playoffs and won the division last year, they're progressing. You see them getting from point A to point B, and now it's about getting to point C. And that kind of feels like what this season is, where you've got a lot of guys where it's put up or shut up time for Bryce Young, for Brad and Zig the play caller.

4:11Robert Mays: You have this young kind of collection of talent that you just didn't have a couple years ago. Last year was a fun story. It was a feel-good story on the heels of Bryce Young's in the back half of the previous season. Feel-good stories feel like they're not good enough anymore. This is a year where there feels like it's more urgency and we need to see results. And I think, I don't know if you feel that way, but that's kind of how it seems from the outside. No question. And understand, like, this is a franchise that has never, this is hard to believe, has never had back-to-back winning seasons in 31 years.

4:44It's incredible. And they won't this year either, because as you said, they made last year. That's right. That's right. But there is an opportunity, and this is what you're getting at, that you can build on last year's success. I mean, this fan base was crazy. They were so starved for a winner. Cam Newton comes back for that playoff game and bangs the key pounding drums. First time he'd been back in the building in a long time. And you felt it living here last year. And good for these fans. But you're right. It's like, was it fool's goal? Can we do this consistently? Because it does feel like they're trending in that positive direction.

5:27But they play a first-place schedule. I know that only amounts to about three games, but their schedule's tough anyway, just the way it falls. They get Seattle and Philly as a result of finishing first last year. It's going to be an intriguing year. What do you do with Bryce Young in terms of the next contract?

5:49Robert Mays: We'll get there. We'll get there. I know. Let's start with the unfortunate place that the entire training camp period started with this team. Again, you have this excitement. You have these young players where it's like, in the draft halls under the previous regime, there was nobody left. The cupboard was bare. And that's how you get to be a bad team is that you just don't draft very well. And then over the last couple of seasons, it's like, we got T-Mac in the first round. We got Tyra McMillan in the first round last year. We got Nick Scorton in the second round. We have a draft class this year where Monroe Freeling feels like an exciting player.

6:20Robert Mays: We have a lot of size and just quality pieces we're trying to build on. And then day one of training camp, you lose Nick Scorton for the season to return ACL. I saw him leaving the building today and just was heartbreaking, like getting out to his car. I'm like, poor guy. And then you have an offensive line that should have been an area where your depth was depth, where you had contingency plans, where maybe if you had to rely on a young player at some point in the season, you might have had to turn that way. Now, from day one, the guy you drafted to potentially be your swing tackle is having to play a right tackle because Taylor Moten is going to miss time with these blood clots.

6:54Robert Mays: So in a season where there is this sort of urgency, this being like the first two or three things that have happened in training camp not a good place to start no no not at all and the taylor moden thing that that's tough i mean they just they just paid him last year you know again he's had several contracts with this team and not that it's always about the money but he was getting a little older i was a little surprised that they extended him but you know this obviously you said the blood clots this is not a situation where he turned an ankle or a soft tissue. So you feel for him, first of all, but seems to be doing well, and they will see him at some point.

7:36But you're talking about a team now that's going to go in this building, week one against Chicago, without both of their starting offensive tackles for not just from the last season, but since 2022. Iki Iquanu, of course, ruptures his patellar tendon against the Rams in that playoff loss and now Moten. So you mentioned Monroe Freeling, the other guy. This was kind of a shrewd move that good front offices make. They got Rasheed Walker for$4 million. I'm still Kent. Our projections for him, like Popper, who does a great job, I mean, everyone had him at much more money.

8:18Robert Mays: Well, when you look at the way that that market has unfolded over the last couple off seasons, the contract that Dan Moore got from the Titans, I don't know why. And then maybe there's some injury concerns because he had the knee coming into the league. There was some stuff that maybe pushed him a little bit further down the draft. My assumption is, and just talking to people about this, the knee was part of it, but is there just some lingering stuff in his draft profile that teams were a little bit scared of? Because Dan Moore got$20 million a year. And I don't think as a free agent, Rasheed Walker was that different of a player hitting the market than Dan Moore was a year ago.

8:52Robert Mays: So to get him at$4 million, And you do that, then you draft Monroe Freeling in the first round. And again, it's like, oh, we're planning a year ahead. Iki Iquano is going to be free agent anyway. And then that year ahead happens immediately. So if they hadn't done that this spring, Dan Morgan would be pulling his hair out right now. But at least they're protected in a way that not a lot of rosters are losing your right tackle in late June when you didn't expect it. They really are. And obviously, Monroe Freeling's development year goes away. And it happens now. And I liked what Dave Canales said the other day.

9:25He said he called or talked to Freeling like a week ago. And he said, I'm going to be honest with you. We wanted you to earn the spot. We like our rookies to come. We don't want to give. T-Mac was given a spot. And that's a little different. Justifiably so. But taking 19 like Freeling was. They wanted him to earn it. And he was second team reps, all OTAs and minikings. But that goes out the window. But to your point, now what was going to be marginal roster guys become your depth. I'm speaking of stone foresight. Brady Christensen I like. They bring him back. He plays every position up front, all five spots.

10:08But then Dan Morgan said the other day, and then we've got some undrafted guys we like. Okay, let's just stop you right there. So, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, Icky, I think, will be back at some point this year. That is a long recovery. Certain Moten will be back. I'll say certain.

10:27Robert Mays: Anyway, it sounds like he could be back in the mix sooner rather than later. And if that's the case, then you get into a spot where if Freeland's playing so well that he ends up playing left tackle, that's a good problem. Right? Like, that's something where we'll cross that bridge when we get there. But at least they're protected on the offensive line because they've made some of these moves. You mentioned Dave Canales calling Monroe Freeling, kind of laying that out to him. Dave Canales has the flexibility to be doing that now. And I think when you are the head coach and the play caller, it's a certain type of job.

10:55Robert Mays: He gives play calling duties to Brad Edzig this offseason. Him and Brad have known each other years and years and years going all the way back to Seattle. There's a certain level of trust there. But my understanding is that part of the reason they did that is that Dave really thought it could free him up to be more of a head coach that was touching all areas of the roster organization, game management stuff. But I know you guys have probably thought a lot about this. What will the play calling change mean? And is that ultimately a good thing for this team? So as you sit here now with like six months to kind of marinate on that decision, what are you thinking about as we embark on the Brad Idzig period and tenure as the Panthers play caller?

11:34Well, we all want to love them together. And And rightly so. I mean, they do have a history. And they're close. One of my favorite stories, Idzik told me, is that he would help Canales prep for his offense coordinator when he went to Baltimore a few years ago and then before the Tampa job that he got. So, you know, they think alike. But you know this. Everyone's got their own stamp. And Brad Idzik should and will put his own stamp on this. And I want to see what it means for Bryce Young because there are some pockets around this organization and around Bryce that I think always felt like maybe Canales was a little too restrictive with him.

12:23Didn't have enough shot plays. Generalizing it, but that was sort of the main argument here. And so it doesn't mean it's going to come out and like become, you know, John Correale. Wow. That's a deep one. But, but no, but I do think there is a comfort level with, with Bryce Young and Brad Itzik. That's important. And it doesn't mean that Itzik's going to be an amazing play caller on Sundays, but it's a good place to start from. He's a smart guy. You spend some time around Brad. He grew up in the NFL. Grandfather coach. Dad was a coach. I mean, he knows a lot of football, and good for him for getting a shot.

13:13Robert Mays: I don't think the structure of the offense will be drastically different than it would have been if Dave was calling plays, simply because Brad oversaw the entire offensive process for the last couple years. I mean, when you have a play-calling head coach, the offensive coordinator is still the one putting together and helping put together a vast majority of the game plan. And so I don't think – here's what I'll say. I think there are some things structurally that might look a little bit different about the offense. I don't think that's necessarily an expression of Brad's vision for the offense.

13:41Robert Mays: I think that would have happened either way. What happens on game day, the rhythm of it, some of those things, maybe that changes. That's something that we have no idea until we actually see it in practice. That's right. That's right. And I'm interested too, and this may be hard to quantify, that Darryl Bevel, his influence, and what role they bring him in as a senior offensive, whatever the title is. A guy that both Dave and Brad have a familiarity with and history with. It was a young staff on offense for the last couple of years. It was guys that have been around, but Brad, first time as an offensive coordinator.

14:23Robert Mays: Dave, first time as a head coach. I mean, even a lot of the guys that were in more supportive roles, it's a young staff overall. And so bringing in somebody like Darryl Bevel, who's been in the league for decades now, seen a little bit of everything, I could understand wanting that perspective and the overall mix of how you're trying to build that group. Right. That's a good point. And we haven't had an opportunity to spend any time with him. I'm looking forward to talking to him soon, talking about Bevel. But yeah, yeah. The offense, we were out there today. You and I were talking on the side too about Jonathan Brooks.

14:58He's an interesting wild card on this offense.

15:01Robert Mays: It's easy, and this came up when I was talking to somebody about this today, where it's like, oh, well, you know, it's a lot of the same guys coming back offensively, a new offensive lineman. Is that going to be enough? And then you think back to what last year actually looked like. And I just think that what the offense looked like after Jalen Coker got back and what that allowed you to do, moving the receivers around, playing a bunch of different roles, plus having Jonathan Brooks, it really is maybe more of a different feel with the skill position group than we're making it out to be. But I still feel like overall, because you have Brooks, because you have a whole season of Coker, does this group feel a little bit punchier and more potent than it did last year, even without a ton of outside additions?

15:42Robert Mays: I think you could make an argument that it might. Certainly, if Brooks is able to, if that knee holds up, he is a guy who has whips. He brings a different element than Chuba Hubbard. And he's exciting. I mean, you go back and watch some of the pre-injury Texas tape. Again, the guy is a player and can receive her out of the backfield, that kind of guy. So to your point, it wasn't like wholesale changes on offense, but there's some little things here. When you talk about Jonathan Brooks, And I'll throw another name in. I think second-year tight end Mitchell Evans is going to be more involved this year, too.

16:19Robert Mays: Yeah. I think as you're looking at that tight end group, they're waiting for somebody to separate among that group. I think he probably has the best chance just because I think he has the best diversified skill set. He's a real wide tight end. You're going to be playing in as many three-receiver sets as they are, and I think they will. I think as a lot of the rest of the league, we get into this 12-13 personnel world, The Panthers are set up to play more 11 in part because the receivers have size and they're willing blockers. I do think that the two guys as I'm looking at, the offensive line is its own beast.

16:49Robert Mays: But among the skill position group, I kind of know what T-Mac is in a good way. The players that I think are the key, like you turn the key and the offense changes, are what Jonathan Brooks can give you and then Jalen Coker being able to do a little bit of everything. Him as a blocker kind of allows you to play more 11 personnel in the way the Rams used to. I think a lot of other teams are going to be chasing what the 13 personnel Rams looked like. I think this team has a chance to be chasing what the 11 personnel Rams looked like in a way that's kind of a zig as the rest of the league. It kind of a zag as the rest of the league zigs.

17:20It's interesting you make the Rams comparison because we do a lot of that here talking about the defense. Yeah. Because the Jero Vero and, you know, so many ex Rams have come through here that Jero had history with there. And anyway, yeah, let's talk some defense. Let's do it.

17:39Robert Mays: So the last thing I want to say about, they said, I mean, talking to people today, physically, Jonathan Brooks is like full go. Like there's no, ah, well, he's like 70%. He'll work into it. I mean, it sounds like he's like ready to go. That's important because he was not out here at OTAs and minicamp. He was not, I think he was capable of it, but they weren't going to just turn him loose in gym. And I remember one day after, I think it was an OTA practice, I asked him, I said, are you running 100 %? Are you full speed? He said, no, not yet. But I don't think it was because his knee was holding him back.

18:19I think it was just the circumstances of the calendar. Let's wait until August and, well, late July. And then, I mean, they got to turn them loose, right? They got to see what they have in them. I mean, if the knee's going to hold up or it's not. I know people around him feel very good about it, but we'll see.

18:38Robert Mays: Let's talk about the defense. Because you look at the investments they've made over the last couple years. It's a group that, the scoring thing obviously is a huge bummer. But other than that, you have playmakers at every level of the defense now. Derek Brown and Jalen Phillips up front. You get Devin Wood on the second level. The corners played outstanding last year. You spent a lot of money on Trevor Merrick. He's been a guy that allows you to play a little bit differently on that side of the ball. Like I, that's an area where I think we talk a lot about Bryce and Idzig and that being areas of urgency with this team.

19:08Robert Mays: I think on defense, it's like, all right, we got to do it now. Like we have the pieces now. Now it's about doing it. Yeah. This team has, right. I'm not even sure we've seen all of a Jero of arrows, you know, everything he has to offer. Yeah. just because they have been missing some pieces here and there, either through injuries or guys that didn't pan out, like a Clowney, for instance. But, yeah, that guy I just keep coming back to, and I know they paid Jalen Phillips more money, but I think Devin Lloyd is really going to be a great fit in this defense. And they feel like he can make plays at all three levels as a pass rusher, and that's really what they miss.

19:54They have not had an inside linebacker who could really help them on the blitz much. And not to sling arrows at a guy who's not here anymore, but late in that Rams game, on the Rams game-winning drive, they tried once or twice with Christian Rosenblum to get to Stafford with some A or B gap pressure. It didn't work out, and it left them a little vulnerable on the back end. But I think Lloyd's going to get there. And, you know, he had five picks last year, which was, you know, in some of those, you know, they're caroms and he happens to. But my point is. He's a playmaker. I think he's a playmaker.

20:32And then Phillips. I mean, I really need to grind a little more tape on him because the sack stats aren't there, but the pass rush win rate is pretty impressive.

20:44Robert Mays: He's an impactful player. He's big. He plays the run. And I mean, he's the type of multifaceted edge guy that they just haven't had over the last couple of years. And now you get to a place where it's almost like the way the offensive line was supposed to work, where the guys that you invested in, the depth, you want those guys to be depth. And this year, it's like Treshawn Wharton now goes from being the second most important player in your defensive line to the third or fourth most important. You have a guy like Bobby Brown, who was your starting nose and your only guy there. Now Lee Hunter is here.

21:14Robert Mays: You've got multiple options there. And so it just feels like it was so fragile when you don't have depth and you don't have options. And now it really does feel like even without Scorton, there's more depth and there are more options within the defense than there was even last year when it was significantly improved. And we all, we as writers and media that cover this league, get enamored with the shiny new objects. And the fans do. And it's fun. Like free agency is fun. but we did a Panthers, the Athletic did our annual Panthers fan survey. Who's going to be the most impactful player on this defense?

21:50Dalen Phil, Devin Lloyd, J.C. Horn. Nope, Darrell Brown. In a landslide. A landslide. And that guy is a stud. I just remember watching him play at Auburn. I'm a big him for the SEC. I love playing SEC football, partly because of where I live. But good shit. destroy SEC offensive linemen his last year or two at Auburn. You see that initially here. And he addressed it the other day, like talking to Roe Freeling, all people.

22:26Sometimes it takes a little while, but boy, when it started to click for Derrick Brown, he's making the kind of plays that I saw him make at Auburn six years ago. All right, let's talk about close things here with, say, the elephant in the room, but that doesn't seem fitting because he's a very small man.

22:45Robert Mays: The quarterback is a big part of this. And with this team specifically, I think there's so much that you can talk yourself into. They're building deep, big, physical team on both sides of the ball. They've really started to add and collect talent. But none of it matters if the quarterback doesn't improve and become more consistent. So where do you think organizationally they're at with that right now in terms of how much faith they have in him finally breaking through and finding that consistency and whether or not there's something in the back of their mind saying we might have to make a change after this year?

23:18I mean, I think they're they're optimistic.

23:22Robert Mays: And that's my sense as well. Last year, around this time, we talked to Brent Tillis, their cap guy, contract guy. And we don't get him on the record a lot, but he was asked the Bryce question. And he said, we think he's trending in the right direction. Fast forward to get Brent Tillis again after the Super Bowl. And he said, kind of told you so, but it's tricky. I did a story around that same time, Super Bowl time. Talked to a lot of folks around the league about what is Bryce Young, what does that next contract look like? And opinions were varied, but most of the folks I talked to came in around$33 million each, which is Baker, which is Sam Darnold.

24:15Robert Mays: That contract doesn't exist for second contract guys coming off of their rookie deal. Yeah. That's never happened. It's not going to happen. so I don't know I'll ask you where what do you think I think it's a tough question because it's that question that doesn't exist in a vacuum he's probably worth around that or a little bit less but those we don't do that in this league that's right and so I think if you're coming off of a rookie deal he's going to be asking for inflation appropriate number that Trevor Lawrence got or Jordan Love got or all those guys and that he's not worth that right now as he's currently playing And so I think we're going to get to a point at the end of this season, picking up the option is about protecting yourself.

24:55Robert Mays: That to me, the way that was framed to me is no brainer. We didn't really think about that because the downside isn't that big. Downside in extension is huge. And so I think there is a very big gap between being willing to pick up a$25 million option to pay him as quarterback 20 and paying him what he may want on the second deal. And I think they're going to need significant step forward from him this year to be willing to do the second thing. I don't think that decision has been made, and I don't think it should be. They should be open to getting to the end of this season and saying, you know what, we just need to be better there than we are right now.

25:28No, it is the decision. It's the topic that looms over this entire season. I think Bryce's side and the Panthers are – it's good. Like I told you, after that benching, not so good.

25:45Robert Mays: They believe in him. I think they want this to work out and they have faith that it can, but I think the one thing I would caution them is don't get bogged down in that. Don't want to believe it so much that you end up making a mistake at the end of this season because you want to will it to happen. Well, and a lot of times people think that Bryce was a Scott Fetterer decision, and probably not a Frank Reich decision, but nevertheless, that staff and that front office is no longer here. Well, Dan Morgan had a big role in that decision to draft and trade all those picks to Chicago and draft Bryce Young number one overall, because he was Scott Fetterer's guy Friday.

26:25He was the assistant GM. And so, to your point, he wants a door count. He absolutely does, but you're right. It's going to be fascinating. So then what do they need to see from him? Consistency is hard for me to quantify. Because last year was better. It was better, but how much better does it have to be before?

26:49Robert Mays: I think they're talking themselves into, okay, Coker being healthy from the start, the offensive line, even if there are some moving parts right now. There were a lot of moving parts during last season. So if you can have a little bit more consistency with that five throughout the year, can we see the best version we've seen of Bryce Young to this point? And I think that you can talk yourself into that, but you need to see it before you want to make a commitment. And it's funny because I think on the outside, we're so tempted to look at this team and say, well, we can't make any sort of evaluations or reach any sort of conclusions until we know how good the quarterback is.

27:20Robert Mays: And from the outside, that almost seems like reductionist. And it's like, I wish that always wasn't the case. But then you talk to people here and you're like, well, how do you get from where you were last year to where you want to go? And the quarterback is the answer. Like, it's not just us. I think they're playing the same wait and see game that the rest of us are because they know that that is at the center of all of this. yeah and that's why that offensive line is so key I mean if that if that becomes like catastrophic up front then how do you then how do you cheer then you roll into a fifth year and let him let him play under the who knows and we're getting way ahead of ourselves I am but that's but that's those the questions you need to be asking right and so it all comes down to that and it's there's a lot of fun stuff about this team but at the end of the day it's going to be about how Bryce Young plays and about how Brad Bransley does the play call.

28:09Robert Mays: That's it. That's right. Joe Person, always great to chat with you, sir. Always great to see you. We'll do it again very soon. Safe travels and send me the after picture.

28:42Robert Mays: Joining us now from the practice field at Loyola Marymount in Los Angeles, it's our new Rams writer, Nate Atkins. Nate, how you doing, man? I'm doing great. First camp with the Rams, enjoying the ocean breeze and just getting out here and seeing the number of stars this team can pack on a one team. It was a lot when I got here and then they added two all pros of the defense. So it just keeps growing. It says more about me than it does about him or the team. But when I got here yesterday, there was a moment where I was like, oh yeah, Miles Garrett's on this team now. That happens with this group every single year.

29:14Robert Mays: Last year, it was like, oh yeah, Devontae Adams is on this team now. It's a yearly occurrence where there's a Hall of Fame caliber, multiple all-pro player that just shows up every offseason. Yeah. When Tren McDuffie came out to talk to us, I was like, oh yeah. Him too. There was a blockbuster that became the second biggest blockbuster of the offseason. And then here we are talking about a possible return for Aaron Donald. So it just never quite stops here. Let's start with that. What's your feel right now about how realistic it seems that Aaron Donald will be on this team when the season starts?

29:47It's one of those situations where the longer it goes on, the more realistic it feels. Because he could come out at any point and just put an end to it. And that's where I thought in the spring when these players were out here campaigning. They seem to want to come to their interviews almost like putting it out there, getting them excited. They know the kind of competitive maniac he is and the way they can stoke that fire. And so for him to be working out, he's always worked out a lot, but for him to be doing it at the Rams facility a little bit. And then Sean McVay's putting it out there that, yes, he's working out to see if he's going to be able to do it.

30:21At this point, obviously it's his decision. And if he doesn't come back, they're not going to hold it against him. But it does feel like the longer it goes, it's almost like a letdown if he doesn't come back. So I just think it's it's it feels definitely more likely than not at this point.

30:36Robert Mays: You really think so? You think more likely than not at this point? Yeah, that's exciting. Yeah, I really do. I mean, it's just one of those like, you know, I asked it. It's interesting because I asked him. He came to the facility last year when they were honoring him. And I asked him, like, do you still get an itch to play? Are there things you miss? And he said, no, he said he misses the guys. He misses the camaraderie. he does not miss playing. So at that point I was like, okay, this guy really is done. But the thing that was always lingering out there was that he had this fascination of what it would be like to share a defensive line with another superstar player.

31:06And so when Micah Parsons was on the trade block, that was a comment he had made at the time of like, if I could ever play with Micah Parsons, well, the closest thing in the league to Micah Parsons, you'd probably say is Miles Garrett. And so Sean McVay had a call with him about the idea to get Miles Garrett. How much of that was him picking Aaron's brain on whether they should do it? How much of that That was him putting a little seed out there of, hey, you said you like to play with great players. But, you know, it could go either anyway. The hard thing to figure out with Aaron is like, what does it look like?

31:34Does he want to do 17 games? Does he want to do less than that? What's the role? What's the contract? There's a lot of logistics. That part is hard to fully figure out. But it just feels like this year is so set up for this team to really go for it with Stafford in his 18th year, with Miles Geer and Trent McDuffie getting here. And I think the Trent McDuffie piece is also underrated for Aaron is that last year when we asked about that, that was about him coming. You know, if he were to come back, which he wasn't interested in it, that'd be him in the defensive line trying to carry that entire defense.

32:06This is a different looking group with Trent McDuffie and Jalen Watson to where Aaron Donald doesn't have to be the guy that he was back in 2023. He just has to be enough of that and an impactful player in these high stakes games. And they've got a lot on schedule.

32:20Robert Mays: My sense after talking to some people over the last couple of days is this wouldn't be a situation where he would show up at Thanksgiving. I don't think that's the way they want to approach it. And when we were talking about this a couple of weeks ago on our show, there was part of me that was just like, man, it ended so beautifully. He went out on his terms. He went out as one of the greatest players of all time. We never had to see him as a diminished version of himself. And something that came up in conversation yesterday that I was like, you know what? that's a really good way to think about it is that he would only come back on his terms.

32:50Robert Mays: If he was going to do it, he wouldn't do it thinking that he'd be a shell of himself. He wouldn't do it as somebody who could only play 20 snaps a game. He would do it thinking he could still be close to the player that he was. And I think that makes me more excited about it. Knowing that those would be the circumstances, the only circumstances he would come back leads me to a place where I'm just like, you know what? Fuck it. If that's going to be the case, then let's do this because I do want to see it. Yeah. Well, that's the thing is Aaron Donald's not going to come back to just be like the veteran voice, the guy around the team.

33:23He's you. If he comes back, he's going to be a real force. And that's why I think it's kind of taken this this ramp up here where he's working out as much as he is to really see, like, do I have that full level in me? And that's what's fascinating about it is that the smart, rational thing for a 35 year old who hasn't played in two years would be to dial things back, play a limited role. but we're talking about one of the most manic competitors you'll ever meet. And to try to tell that guy, you need to have a limited role and take it easy. That isn't how he's ever done it. That's why I think he retired at the time he did was it was this idea of, I only want to go full go for as long as I can do it and want to do it.

34:00And I'm not, like you said, he doesn't want to do this diminished thing. He wasn't going to hang on to the end. So it's fascinating to figure out what does that look like two years later at that position? I don't know if I've ever heard of a defensive lineman coming back after two years in their mid-30s. No way.

34:14Robert Mays: I mean, it would be a one-of-one unprecedented thing. But the thing is, he's a one-of-one unprecedented player. And I think I was reminded of that yesterday when talking to people about this. And so I think I've had to kind of reframe it in my own head about what are realistic expectations in a situation like this. They're different for Aaron Donald than they are for pretty much every human being who's ever played professional football. And thinking about why he'd want to do it, I think that an itch to play is part of it. And he's got young kids that some of them have never seen him play or weren't old enough to see him play.

34:46Robert Mays: And so I think that's part of it, too, where there's just considerations that maybe I didn't have in front of mind that came up as I was asking people about it, where it kind of leads me to a similar place that you are, where it really does feel like we're getting closer and closer to this potentially happening. And as if this team wasn't stacked enough, now Aaron Donald potentially back in the fold. Yeah. Let's talk about the defense and some of the changes. Obviously, you have the blockbuster moves. You know, Miles Garrett is here now. You know what he does to change things on defense. You know that Trent McDuffie is here now.

35:16Robert Mays: In the way that you've kind of come to understand it, as they've added those pieces, like you said, now the secondary is no longer something that's probably keeping you up at night. Why do we think or in what ways do we think the defense will feel and be different this year because of the guys that they've added this offseason? Yeah, I think the balance between the pass coverage and the pass rush is the biggest thing. Last year, they built this entire model of we're going to be so deep and so creative up front that that's going to overwhelm things. It's not that they didn't have a secondary, but their secondary talent were two safeties in Quinton Lake and Cam Curl.

35:52They love to get creative. They want to play dime. Then they realized, and it worked pretty well for about half a year, the secondary was making plays and the pass rush was getting home. They realized toward the end of the season, after Quinton Lake went on injured reserve and then came back, that teams were finding ways to avoid those safeties. That's just the reality. If the corners are going to be as vulnerable as they were, and it wasn't just in coverage. It was teams that ended up finding that was the way to run on the Rams. The Rams went out and they got Puna Ford and Nate Lamb in, and they really solidified the middle of the run defense.

36:24But you saw teams like Seattle realize if you can stretch it to the edge and force these corners who are already stressed to play in coverage to also bring it in the run defense, there just were too many leaks. And I think it took away what this defense really wanted to be, which is creative. They had to go into more shell coverages late, and they just were hoping someone would win in the pass rush. And that's the other big difference. As good as that pass rush was with Jared Verse, Byron Young, Kobe Turner, they didn't feel like they had one guy that was going to go wreck the game on third and 10.

36:53They had this collective group, and that ended up hurting when they faced those moments against mobile quarterback like Sam Darnold and Caleb Williams in the playoffs and Bryce Young to a extent. Those guys were finding ways to extend the play enough, and there wasn't a game wrecker. So they wanted to add two closers to this defense, one on the back end and one on the front end. So that was Trent McDuffie, a cornerback, who's going to play inside and outside. And then obviously, Miles Garrett is the ultimate closer to be able to bring out there where they just realize like Jared Verse, as much as they love Jared Verse, he was a guy that was ascending but not ascended.

37:27And Miles Garrett is that fully formed version of everything. They more than they could dream that Jared Verse is going to be. So for them to trade Jared Verse, it was going to take something like this. But this is their version of trying to recreate the model they had in 2021 with Jalen Ramsey in the back end, Aaron Donald on the front end. These two guys that are so prolific at impact positions that you can't avoid them the way that teams were able to avoid these two really good safeties. And then the flip of that is because of their additions, they feel like they can get more creative with those safeties and with these DBs.

37:59And so I think they've got a lot of plans for Cam Curl and Quinton Lake that they got to a little bit last year. But I think they're going to get to it even more because they don't have the same structural weaknesses.

38:10Robert Mays: It's interesting. It's not just the star power, but it's understanding what having a player like an Aaron Donald or Miles Garrett does to the offense. Like for some teams, it would be a new experience when you have a guy like this and what he's doing to the opposing menu that you're going against. When Aaron Donald was on this team, there were things opposing offenses just couldn't do because he was on the field. They're familiar with that world. And I think they want to return to that world. Well, we're limiting the menu, the options and opposing offense has. That's back on the table. What's different is, like you just said, I think it's a perfect way to frame it.

38:43Robert Mays: I think Seattle is a great team to bring up in two different ways. Seattle and the run game and the perimeter run game exposes the lack of physicality for this team in the secondary and tackling. but Seattle's secondary, I think, kind of acted as a bit of inspiration for what the Rams wanted. It's like, we see, it's not just what the front is bringing with the Seahawks. The physicality comes on the back end as well. We need that. And so them going out and getting the guys that they did. Now you have a level of physicality upfront and on the back end that matches each other and matches the teams that you're going to have to be in the playoffs.

39:14Yeah. I think those last two Seattle games last year were the most instructive for what this off season is because not only did they lose these razor tight games to team the division they lose the division that way they lose the nfc that way they see that team go in the super bowl so that becomes a model for everybody but when they look back at those games the one they lost on thursday night in overtime and then the nfc title game i think if you ask a lot of people this team they still believe they had the better overall they had the stronger overall team but they weren't the most balanced complete team They're going to piss off the Seahawks fans so much.

39:45No, they're not going to like it. They're going to piss off the Seahawks fans so much. But it's a credit to the Seahawks because they were the better built team. Yeah. So the Rams offense was the best unit in those games. I mean, the Thursday night game and the NFC title game, I mean, those are two of the best games I've ever watched Matthew Stafford play, and I covered him in Detroit for three years. But at the end of the day, who had the defense and who had the special teams? And not only did those units hold up the Seahawks, They made the big time plays, whereas the Rams defense in special teams by the end of the year is just trying to hold on.

40:19And they realize that as great of an offense as you can build with Pukeniku and Devontae Adams and Stafford in the run game, it's only going to take you so far if those other two phases aren't strong enough. And so that inspired this run this offseason. So Seahawks fans will love to hear that. But also, they're the reason they got the Rams desperate and urgent this year.

40:37Robert Mays: Let's talk about special teams in a second because I think it's crucially important. defense, what I'm so interested in, and I think they're interested in it as well, and this is what they're trying to figure out right now, what does the deployment of all these guys look like situationally? Because I think that becomes the biggest question. You have a guy in Quentin Lake who very credibly played the nickel for you last year. That was your best 11. It was him in the nickel with the cams in the back. Now, Trent McDuffie's done some of that. So now you have two guys that you can play down there. What is your best 11?

41:06Robert Mays: Is it those three safeties on the field? Is it McDuffie inside? If you do that, who's going to be your outside corner? That to me becomes maybe the biggest question about the defense independent of Aaron Donald is, who are our guys? Who is our best 11? Situationally, what is that best 11? And how do we figure that out? It seems like that might be the most important process they're going through right now during training camp. Yeah, that's what's going to be really fun to see evolve because there's a lot of this defense that we feel like we know because they brought back, what is it, eight of the 11 starters, but those three are so impactful that it's going to change.

41:39It's going to feel a little different. If it doesn't, you're in trouble. Yes. And so I, I think their goal is to never stay static. I, you know, on one hand, some defenses would, or they just say, we've got Miles Garrett and Byron Young and, you know, Tremenduvi and we're just going to throw them at you. I think this Chris Shula and Sean McVay, they're always looking for something different to try and do. And so that was a big thing to me, I think about re-signing Cam Curl and Quentin Lake. I didn't know that they'd bring both safeties back. This team does not pay safeties until they paid them.

42:09But I think what they see is there's so much more they can get to that they couldn't with those guys last year. So they're going to play a lot of dime again. They love to do that. But I think within that dime personnel, they're going to get real creative. I think you're going to see McDuffie move inside at times to nickel, which is his best spot that frees Quentin Lake up to do some either free safety or strong safety. I think you're even going to see things like, You may see Cam Curl as a dime linebacker, where they just get as many of these DVs on the field at one time. And that's the big shift of this season compared to last.

42:39Last year, it was like, they don't have enough coverage guys. And now it's like, how do we get more and more and more of these guys on there? And the same is true for the pass rush. What they can do with some of their pressure packages and overloading one side, that's all the stuff that they were doing last year. And it worked really well. But you can move it up a notch when you've got Myles Garrett, especially if you get Aaron Donald back.

43:00Robert Mays: On offense, the best offense in the league last year, you bring back essentially every single component piece that made this the best offense in the league. When we preview each team during the division previews each year, one of the questions we ask is, what's keeping you up at night? What are the things that you're worried about as you put your head down on the pillow? With the offense specifically, what's your answer to that? What is the thing that could sabotage this from the outside that I'm not thinking enough about? Offensive line depth, for sure. It's actually, I think, a huge concern for this team.

43:29So you look at this starting personnel, and they're running back almost everything that they had to be No. 1 in the league last year. And you could talk yourself into some improvements with Blake Corum taking a step and Terrence Ferguson. But this offensive line, it was so good last year, and you look at it, it really had a great bill of health last year. They lost Kevin Dotson for a couple games, a game lost to Larrick Jackson, but mostly that group was out there all the time. And then you look at, you know, behind those guys, though, their top guard option was Justin Dietrich, who just went on the non-football injury list for a hand injury suffered at the 4th of July.

44:03They've got a left tackle, Larrick Jackson, who is potentially facing a second suspension under the league's personal conduct policy. And I don't think this team has a swing tackle. And I don't know who it would be if they do. They've got a couple options, but there are options at tackle if either Larrick Jackson or Warren McClendon goes down is either a 36-year-old David Questenberry or a third-round rookie guard out of your alma mater at Mizzou, who I don't think has played left tackle. So it's concerning, and not only because offensive lines are important, but for this team and this quarterback, an 18th-year veteran who is very much a pocket quarterback.

44:42Like last year, to get Stafford through 20 games without an injury was a miracle, honestly. And it was amazing what they did on the offensive line. But what happens if you have a tackle suspension for Alaric Jackson or a couple of injuries? And I just don't know that they have multiple playable backup offensive linemen. So I just feel like when you look throughout NFL history, those teams that have all the buzz that disappoint, I think oftentimes the story goes back to the offensive line. And either what that did to the offense or what that did specifically to the quarterback. So this offense has everything to go out and be the number one unit again if it's healthy.

45:22But it's not hard to see the Achilles heel being one or two issues in the offensive line. And it's not even something where you need to use a lot of imagination.

45:29Robert Mays: We have seen a direct connection between offensive line quality and Matthew Stafford's play over the last three years. This isn't a hypothetical. We've seen what it looks like when it is a little bit shakier because of the fact that he's a 38-year... He's my age. He's six months younger than me playing quarterback back there. And I think it's a really good thing to bring up. And I'll be curious what the move would be if Alaric Jackson gets suspended. Is that guy in the building? Is that a situation where they're going to have to look at somebody that's still hanging out there on the market? Because I'm with you.

45:57Robert Mays: I think that is the number one concern that you'd have. And what that brings me back to is those guys were available at 13. If you wanted to protect yourself there, you could have. You made a decision. You made a calculated choice about what the next five years the franchise should look like. maybe at the expense of protecting yourself this year. And now they're living with that decision. And that's true at offensive line. And it's true at wide receiver where, you know, Makai Lemon was a guy a lot of people talked about potentially drafting there. And their argument for that was we have Puka Taku and Devontae Adams who run all this 13 personnel.

46:31We don't need another guy to come in and have a big target shirt, which I buy. But what happens if Puka or Devontae go down? I don't know who steps in on the outside. They've got a number of options.

46:41Robert Mays: I mean, it's Whittington at this point, right? If it's Puka, it's probably Whittington. And if it's Devontae, it's probably Mumfield. Canata Mumfield, right. I think C.J. Daniels is going to be more of your kind of big slot type. The six-rounder they draft out of Miami. And if it's a game or two, they had that last year, and they'll lean more into the 13 personnel. They'll run the ball a lot. If it's a month or if it's a playoff run, that's not going to be enough, I don't think, to reach that high gear of what their offense was down the stretch last season. So the health of the offensive line and the health of Adams and Nakua, and obviously Stafford goes with that.

47:14But that was the opportunity cost of the way they did the draft, not only in the first round with Ty Simpson, but taking another tight end in the second round and Max Clare. That could be a great move in a year or two from now. Same with Ty Simpson. But for this year, I don't know that that protects some of these injuries if they do happen.

47:32Robert Mays: And so far, I mean, obviously, it's extremely early in camp and the way the Rams do it. there are two days on practice than a quieter day. And then obviously Stafford's going to get a lot of veteran rest time. But when Stafford didn't practice two days ago, Stetson Bennett was the guy taking the reps of the number ones. And right now, I think as it currently stands, Stetson Bennett is the back. Yeah. What's interesting is their plan heading into the offseason was to have to draft a quarterback and have him as the number three quarterback. And so their hope was to bring back Jimmy Garoppolo. Well, Jimmy Garoppolo, all of a sudden, you know, is exploring retirement in his now, you know, he's unsigned at the moment.

48:06They tried to go after Kirk Cousins. Kirk Cousins ended up finding the big payday with the Raiders. They just couldn't find what they really want as a backup quarterback, which is a highly experienced quarterback who's played in the playoffs so that if he has to step in in the divisional round, he's been there like Garoppolo has, like Kirk Cousins has. So that is another big question for this team is that it's an open competition between Stetson Bennett and Ty Simpson where Stetson is ahead for right now. He's also been in the building for a couple years. I wouldn't read it too much into that as far as what the long term is for Ty.

48:39But the short term is they're going to need a guy that they can trust there. And especially for Stafford missing one out of every two practices, they really liked how Jimmy Garoppolo organized the offense and developed all these players around him. That's now falling on very inexperienced quarterbacks. But that's another position like tackle where I think potentially, we'll see how this plays out in camp and if guys grow. But it's one where if Stafford were to get hurt during the season, And I think that's where Jimmy Garoppolo could get a call to come back, is that I just don't know that they want to gamble that on the inexperience that is this group, which is not a slight on Stetson or Ty.

49:14It's just they haven't played. They have not been out there in these moments. And this is not the year to figure out what you have there in games. They need to try and win every game they can in a division where, you know, the difference between first and, you know, the difference between 13 and 12 wins can be the number one seed or the number six seed. And so that I think is pretty important. I think it also depends if, let's say, Stafford gets banged up.

49:36Robert Mays: If it's a finger and it's a week, you can live. If it's a month, maybe that's where Jimmy gets the call. I think that's my understanding of how they're thinking about it. On offense, being around here for a couple days, talking to people, my sense is that the two guys that... Who's going to look a little bit different than they looked last year? Who's going to have more of an impact in the way that this group feels? Are Terrence Ferguson and Blake Corham? Do you think that's the right place to land? And how different and in what ways do you think those guys will have a different impact on the offense?

50:04Yeah, I did a piece about a month ago on three potential breakout players, and those were two of them along with Cam Kitchens at safety. But on offense, those are just the easy answers because, you know, Terrence Ferguson, they drafted. It's like what they just did with Max Clare. They look at tight end as they're drafting it for the next year because the transition is just so much. He didn't really block at Oregon. He needed to add weight to his frame and also technique. But you saw them get to it late in the season, some more explosive plays. He essentially took the 2-2 Atwell role of the sort of chunk play down the field.

50:38Which is hilarious. Which is hilarious. This is funny about these skill players is that they're not burners for the most part. So the guys who were the most explosive, honestly, are Terrence Ferguson and Blake Corum. But Blake's also one that I think he's going to take a big step this year. I think he was, I was blown away at how much he improved last year. The start of the year, they didn't know if they could trust that out on the field. By the end of the year, he's ripping off huge runs and averaging five yards a carry, finished with 700 and some yards. And then you see some of the workout videos he's posting.

51:10And of course, that's this time of year, best shape of my life type stuff. But I want to be clear.

51:15Robert Mays: I'm not in the best shape of my life as we get started in training camp. I just want that on the record for everybody. I might be, but I won't be by the end of the season. I promise you that. But Blake Corum is. He really does look the part. And I think, you know, running back's a position where like you see us a lot. where rookies come out of college, and the difference with the hash marks and the speed of the game, they can't run the same way they did in college because there's just so much more speed out there. And so Blake, I think, had to really adjust to that, was not ready as a rookie, was getting there early in the year, and then really got there at the later part of the season.

51:48I really think it's going to be a one-two, very split balance between him and Kyron Williams. They may have just about identical rushing stats where Kyron just plays more because he's that third-down, pass-protector-receiver type. But in the run game, I think they're going to lean on those two a ton because for them, that's what really unlocks everything for Stafford to be able to play in favorable downs and distances, run play action, run 12, 13 personnel. And the no-look passes usually are set up by the ways that they can play in the run game. And those two need to – Terrence Ferguson is the one, though, that needs to step up the most because they don't really have a third pass catcher that you can name right now.

52:25Now, he's the most likely, the best candidate to go out there and do that. And so I think the ideal version for them is he leads the tight end and catches in yards. And then he fishes third on the team and catches in yards behind Puka and Devontae Adams. And they're ready to see what it looks like.

52:40Robert Mays: I think that's a great way to frame it. I think that's a great way to think about it. And I wouldn't be surprised if they were seeing it the same way as we get three or four days in the camp here. Wait one second. I forgot special teams, which is fitting because this team forgets it pretty much every single year. So what is the plan for why that is not going to be the Achilles heel for this year's Rams? What have they told you about how they're trying to make sure that that's going to be more buttoned up than it was a year ago? The main idea is that it's a system change. So they've got a new coordinator in Bubba Ventron, who I covered in Indianapolis.

53:13He's got a new assistant, Kyle Hoke, and a couple of familiar faces he's coached before. A new long snapper and a cover man in Grant Stewart. These are not the flashy names compared to this team.

53:23Robert Mays: When you're a team in this position, that's what you have to be thinking about. And so it's important to bring up. It's really important to bring up. It is. And that's where they're going to make their biggest difference is just get rid of the penalties, get rid of the blocked kicks, just the ways that they killed themselves. This special teams unit probably has less on it than just about any in the league as far as the impact they have to make because there's so much impact on the defense side of the ball and the offensive side of the ball. So many star players, but they just can't be the unit that kills you.

53:53You can't muff a punt in Seattle in the NFC title game. You can't give up a punt return touchdown to Rashid Shahid that turns that game around. And so I buy the approach that they're taking. We obviously have to see how it plays out. The one spot that I am worried about, though, is their return game, punt return specifically. That's the spot I really thought they would go and get someone else. They decided to bring back Xavier Smith. And Kyron Williams is enough of an option to kind of at least kind of catch it and be safe with the ball. but they they've got to get that figured out in a big way because I think teams started to see that as a crack in them is that if you can just stay close enough to them with their offense you'll eventually get that play on special teams and so that's got to be totally different this year and that's what's fascinating with a guy like Bobo Ventron because I've seen the high highs in Indianapolis he put together some amazing units that you know created all these impact plays But I also know when he was with the Browns, they had some of those miscues, you know, blocked punts and stuff like that.

54:53And so how much of that was personnel? Is this personnel that much better than it was a year ago? That's going to be fascinating to watch. But I think the main thing for them, though, is they just want an entirely different approach. They realized that a little too late last year. They fired a coordinator with like a month ago in the season, which you almost never see for a team that's going to the playoffs. And so that told you that they tried everything they could do. And it just systematically, they didn't have it last year. And so their hope is that Boba Ventron ends up being one of their biggest acquisitions this year.

55:24Robert Mays: There we go. Special teams. It's the place that starts and ends. It's a good place to do it. Nate Atkins, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. We'll do it again very soon. All right. Thanks.

55:35Robert Mays: Joining us now is not our Chargers beat writer at The Athletic. It's one of our newly minted national writers at The Athletic, our guy Daniel Popper. First of all, congratulations. And it is very good to see you. Great to see you as well. Thank you so much. Looking forward to this opportunity. Got a couple more weeks on the Chargers beat here. And obviously an encyclopedia of knowledge up here in the brain. So excited to talk some Chargers football, but also very excited about this next opportunity. I was already giving you shit about it. The degree to which you are still locked in, like digging for Chargers stuff and annoying them being like a very dogged reporter today and not having the most intense senioritis of all time, knowing you have two weeks left on the beat, is a testament to your professionalism.

56:15Robert Mays: So I sincerely appreciate that. I appreciate that. I thought I was going to come in here and just be like, a couple more weeks, ride it out into the sunset, and then found myself in a press conference still pushing Jim Harbaugh about Tuli Tupelo's practice availability. Can't help yourself. And that is why you were a special man. Built different. This team is built different right now than it has been over the last couple of years. And Listen, it's a fascinating tenor here right now because I think there are two different things happening. One, this place is very good at saying absolutely nothing.

56:49Robert Mays: Just absolutely nothing. You're trying to get any more so you can about what they're going to do on defense with Chris O 'Leary here now and what the offense looks like under Mike McDaniel. And there's a lot of platitudes about mentality and mindset and evolution without any sort of specifics. And so there's a caginess to a lot of the practical and schematic stuff. While at the same time, it was impossible to ignore. And it was impossible for them to tamp down the excitement that I think this group collectively feels. And so walking away from my discussion, say those are the two things that stuck out.

57:24Robert Mays: Like tight-lipped, but also you kind of sense like a wry smile because they know they are set up to potentially do something that they have not done before. Yeah, absolutely. The word I would use is urgency. Yeah, there's urgency around this place with the collection of players that they have with Jim Harbaugh at the helm. You know, they've been to the playoffs twice and they have not won a playoff game yet. Like it has to happen. You have Justin Herbert, a quarterback. You have this collection of not only have won a playoff game yet, it's been ugly in the playoffs the last two years, especially offensively, which was the impetus for going and getting Mike McDaniel more than anything else.

57:55But you have, you know, the tackle duo, one of the best in football, if not the best in football, obviously had some some injuries last year. Derwin James, Khalil Mack, you go down the list of all of these players that they have. And Joe Hortiz, the GM, has built out considerable depth here as well, which was the thing that was missing under previous regimes. They have to go win. And no one's really beating around the bush with it either. I mean, Rashawn Slater's at the podium being like, it's time. It's time. And I think everyone understands that. Where I end up is like, yeah, OK, I understand the urgency is there.

58:22I'd love to know how they plan on getting there. That's been my goal throughout this spring. And, you know, you get some from the offensive side of the ball because you can really get into the philosophy of the scheme. And there's stuff that, you know, is already out there in the public that Mike McDaniel is comfortable talking about defensively. That's where I've had a tough time figuring out exactly how this is going to look different, because Chris O 'Leary is a Jesse Minter disciple. I mean, Chris O 'Leary played for Jesse Minter in college at Indiana State. Jesse Minter gave Chris O 'Leary his first college job, coaching job at Georgia State.

58:52So they've been together for a long, long time and trying to figure out what dials Chris O 'Leary is going to turn in different directions. I think it's very fascinating.

59:00Robert Mays: I'm talking to him today and just talking about his influences and some of the things that he believes in. I always like talking, asking coaches that like as you go back through your career, who has been important as you've developed your own value system as a coach, whether that's mindset, mentality, schematics, anything. And Jesse Minter is the first name he mentioned, but he worked under Al Golden and Marcus Freeman at Notre Dame. that defense is very different from the one that Jesse Minter has run over the last few years. And so where Chris O 'Leary falls between those two poles of we're going to play a lot of zone, it's not going to be passive, but it's going to be safe versus a team that played a lot of press man coverage and really forced the issue.

59:34Robert Mays: I'm very curious where between those two points where he ends up landing. Right. And I think like a lot of it is dictated by personnel. Like I think Jesse Minter would love to play a lot more man coverage, but he worked with what he had here. And as a result they played a lot of zone and even last year as he realized that his guys especially at corner really loved to play man coverage he started playing a little bit more on third downs and the guys loved it but that was never really like a true fabric of of the defensive scheme so how does chris o 'leary view the personnel that he has how does he view it differently than jesse minter did does he feel like cam hart one of the the guys competing at outside corner is a guy that really can thrive in man coverage tarheep still may be a guy that he feels like can thrive in man coverage.

1:00:14So those dials are gonna be fascinating. And the beauty... And this is why I love covering football. The beauty of it is, you can have as many conversations as you want. You won't know for sure until you turn that tape on and you get three weeks of tape and you can be like, all right, you can start to get a feel for what they're actually going to do.

1:00:26Robert Mays: And I think that's where they're at as well. Where it's like, if they're... I think coaches that can tell you on July 29th, this is what we're going to be. This is how it's going to go. They're doing themselves a disservice because they're wrong. That's not how it's going to go. And I think they're open to the idea of, we're not going to know exactly the best things to deploy and the best things to be as a defense until we get a month into the season. I think that's the right way to be thinking about it. Yeah. A hundred percent. You got to be pliable, right? Like you got to be able to be able to adjust, you know, as you go along, as you learn more about your personnel, as you go through injuries, all the different factors that go into it.

1:00:58Robert Mays: As you look at the defensive personnel specifically, obviously it's that people are back, right? Like it's the same group of players. You drop a key mesador in here and then that's a one for one. And that's really it. So as you think about the areas or the positions that may be a little bit unsettled or that you need more answers about before week one than you have on July 29th, what first comes to mind for you? Yeah, so I would start with the third safety battle. That feels unsettled to me. And it's particularly important in this defense because Derwin James plays so much closer to the line of scrimmage.

1:01:26That's something that's going to continue from the Jesse Minter era. It means a lot of nickel. It means a lot of dime. It's the perfect way to use him. You got to get him around the football. It allows him to blitz. It allows him to be a part of the run fit. When he moves into those spots, you need a second safety on the back end next to Elijah Molden, who has that spot locked down. There's three guys in contention there. Tony Jefferson, RJ Mickens, and then rookie Genesis Smith, who they took in the fourth round. That's going to be a really interesting battle. I'll also go to corner because he really when Derwin moves to nickel, you've got three guys for two spots on the outside.

1:01:54It's Cam Hart and Tar Heep still. We mentioned that Dante Jackson, who played really good football last year and is one of the best ball hawks in the league. So how do they sort of work that out last year? Interestingly, Jesse Menter really believed in rotating corners. He had four guys rotating and they like and the players didn't even know when they were going to be playing. Like it would just happen organically through a game where you'd have two guys in for one series. And all of a sudden they'd make wholesale changes. They take one guy out. And it's difficult because it is a rhythm position.

1:02:20Absolutely. Does Chris O 'Leary really lock in on two outside guys? Or does he do a rotation from series to series? Another thing that we're not going to know until we get the film and we actually get to watch this team play. Those are the two areas of the defense where I think there's some real competition happening in corner and then third safety.

1:02:35Robert Mays: Obviously, some contract questions on that side of the ball. You alluded to a below two thing before we started talking. And then Dan Hemley's going in the last year of his deal. So as you think about what those players want, the markets for those players, whether the Chargers are going to be willing to meet those prices, how do you think each of those shake out over the next nine months? Yeah. So I think Deion's probably going to wait until after this year. That would be my guess. I think last year he was heading in. He was expecting to really take a huge jump. And between off-field stuff, severe illness that put him in the hospital, it was just not what he expected the season to be.

1:03:06I think that the sky's the limit for Dan Henley in terms of talent. But I think he really needs to put together that full season before he's going to be in the mix for the type of contract that he wants. With Thule, he did not practice today on the opening day of camp. All signs point to a hold in there. He obviously is coming off a career season, 13 sacks, top six in the league in sacks, top six in the league in pressure rate, kind of put it all together. Last year, I think the question is, where does he end up within the market? Is he a$30 million a year player, which is what Jalen Phillips made in free agency?

1:03:36or does he get further up in the market, closer to the 35 range, maybe even above that? And I think that's really where the negotiations are at. The Chargers do this with a lot of contracts. Derwin James held in in 2022. It happens. It's part of the business of the NFL. As they get closer to that first game, there's a little bit more impetus to get it done. So I feel like it does get done, but it might take a little bit of time because I think you look at a player like Tully Tupelo and you say, okay, is he like an alpha number one for sure can be your best edge rusher on a great, great defense?

1:04:08Or does he need to be in sort of a 1B role like he's been throughout his career with Khalil Mack? And I think that's sort of the conversation with his contract.

1:04:17Robert Mays: Talking about the stuff that's been in the public offensively, the things that you do know right now about what they want to be, who they want to be on that side of the ball, what has kind of trickled out that you feel good about? This is what they're going to do. This is who they're going to try to be beyond some of the things that we don't know. Yeah. I mean, they want to get the ball out of Justin Herbert's hands. They want to fix the amount of hits that he's taken by getting the ball out of his hands in 2.4 seconds or less. He's been very accurate in the quick game throughout his career, including last year when he was close to 80 % completion percentage.

1:04:46They feel like there's more meat on the bone in the quick game where they can get the ball into their playmaker's hands with rooms to run. That's going to be a big part of the offense. And in theory, get the ball out quicker. We saw it with two in Miami with Mike McDaniel. That should lead to fewer hits. Last year, he took more hits than any quarterback in the NFL. And it's just completely untenable and unsustainable. So that's going to be a big part of it. You know, can they really create explosives in the quick game in a way that where they just didn't under under Greg Roman? And then other stuff that's like obviously really built into what this system is, which is a lot of outside zone and a lot of bootleg action and play action, run action off of those types of blocking schemes, which I think is gonna be really interesting.

1:05:23I think like I think a lot of people around the league would be like, we've always wanted to see Justin Herbert play in a Shanahan offense.

1:05:30Robert Mays: If you go back to when Brandon Staley got this job originally, he wanted somebody from that tree and was never able to do it. Tried to hire four different guys from that tree before settling on Joe Lombardi. So people have wanted to see it for a long time, including, like you said, head coaches of the Chargers. So when he's so good on the move and he's so athletic and he's such great arm strength. And when you make that into the entire entree, what can he be as a quarterback as opposed to just sprinkling it in, which is what we've seen over the course of his career? So I think like on a broad level, like if Justin Herbert does not bring his a stuff into a playoff game, do you have an offensive infrastructure that can lift him up, get him back into a rhythm and get him back on track?

1:06:10I think that is the vision for what they want this to be. And ultimately, we're not going to get an answer on that until January.

1:06:16Robert Mays: We're not going to get an answer on a lot of stuff, I think, until we see what it actually looks like in practice. And Mike McDaniel has been, you know, he's going into year 20 in the league now, which is crazy to think about. But in that 20 years, he has seen so many different versions of this offense. And he said something today that I found really interesting where he was like, when you're channeling the system through the players and you are making it about what they do well, you inherently need to evolve. Like it creates necessary evolution. And what that process looks like for this team specifically, I'm so interested in because in Miami specifically, you have a quarterback who is very good at accessing one area of the field.

1:06:50Robert Mays: The offense is completely built around prying open and getting the ball to that area of the field because of the quarterback. Well, now you have a quarterback who can truly access any single blade of grass on any point in the field. So what does that offense look like expressed through that skill set? Because it's vastly different than what we've watched over the last couple of years. And I have no idea. Mike McDaniel, as a play caller, as an offensive architect, has only had Tua Tungvaluwa as his quarterback. In San Francisco, he was the run game guy. I just think there are so many unanswered things about what this system looks like when you have a quarterback like Justin Herbert and the things he can access versus what it looks like when you have a quarterback like Tua.

1:07:29Robert Mays: And that's not even the shit on Tua. It's just about building around the strengths of the players that you have. The strengths of this quarterback are very different than the strengths of the previous quarterback. Absolutely. Absolutely. And again, sort of that Pandora box, you open it up and it's like, where is this going to go and what's going to be inside? It's like you could really do anything with Justin Herbert. So how do you harness his skill set in the best way while also protecting him? I think that's a big part of it, too. You don't want him to have to be Superman. You don't want him to have to go out onto the field in a Monday night football game seven days after getting a plate inserted into his arm and call his own number on a run play to get a first down that you need in the fourth quarter.

1:08:03You don't want that to happen. He was unhinged. You don't want that to happen. So how can you create an infrastructure around him where he feels like he can execute and be successful, but it's not like the entire operation is completely on his shoulders? And so it's finding that balance. You talk about Justin Herbert in the right way, where it's like he can access every part of the field. And some coordinators here and coaches here in the past have leaned into that too far and put too much on his shoulders. So how do you strike that balance between taking advantage of his talents, but also allowing him to be comfortable and not feel like the entire franchise is on his shoulders?

1:08:36Because I think that's been to his detriment at times in his career.

1:08:39Robert Mays: The process they're going through, Mike and Justin specifically, I think the things that stick out to me are they're taking more off his play protection wise because that's how the system works. And so the mental workload and the mental burden is a little bit less now. But they're asking him to do things from an almost mindset and mental perspective. Like, all right, we want you to try to access this window before you're ready to do it. We want you to change your footwork in this way. And so there are things that even if there are like actual mechanical things within the offense being taken off of his plate, there are certain mental hurdles I think he's going to have to go through and get over when it comes to getting comfortable playing in this type of offense that are most important right now.

1:09:18Robert Mays: That's what they're honing in on right now is my sense. I think that's a great point. And it's fascinating to me because Mike McDaniel came in here and immediately said, like, my job is to challenge him. Yeah. Like, I don't care where you are in your career. I don't care how good you are. My job as a coach is to get more out of you. That's why they pay me. Right. And that's the approach that he's taken with Justin Herbert. A lot of people have come into this building and been like, he's great. Just let him be great. No, Mike McDaniel has come in and been like, there's meat on the bone. Like he relies on his arm strength too much in the quick game.

1:09:44And even in the intermediate area of the field where like he's waiting for that guy to come open. We can get him to throw with more anticipation before that guy comes open. Create opportunities after the catch. Changing his footwork because they want his left foot forwards that he's in a position to throw as soon as possible. These are significant changes to how he plays, but that is, to me, at the core of what a good coach does. You come in, you say, from the top of the roster to the bottom of the roster, how can I get more out of you? And you demand something of the player to make that happen.

1:10:15Robert Mays: So many changes personnel-wise on the offense when it comes to Charlie Kohler is here now, Alec Engle is here now, Keaton Mitchell is here now. As you think about, let's take the groups individually. As you think about the receiver room, the roles they might play, the amount of volume going to those sorts of players, the pecking order. How do you look at this group of wide receivers right now in a new system? Yeah, I mean, I think Ladd's going to be a real focal point. Like I was watching a bunch of Miami film after they hired Mike McDaniel. And like I'm seeing some of the pre-snap motion stuff they're doing with Tyreek and Jalen Waddell.

1:10:43And I'm like, you know, Ladd can do that stuff. I don't know. He's obviously not going to be Tyreek. But he has that skill set. You're talking about a 4-3-9 guy, shifty, great route runner, very cerebral player, good hands, good after the catch, etc., etc. I think they're really going to use him as a move piece in the way that they did with Tyreek and Jalen Waddell. Quentin Johnston, I think this is a perfect offense for him. I've been banging my head against the table for his entire career, being like, why are you trying to make him play X? They're trying to make him play like Mike Williams, like Julio Jones.

1:11:12He's not that. You've got to get the ball in his hands as soon as possible and let him run with the ball. And it feels like finally you have an offensive coordinator in here who's going to be doing that exact thing with Quentin Johnson. Get him the ball on drags. Get him the ball underneath. Get him the ball on screens and just let him go. Use his athleticism. Use his gifts. He's not a ball tracker. He's not a guy that's going to be a true ex in his ability to win in those contested catch situations. So use him in a way that he can be successful. And then they got a lot of collection of guys after those two that are super interesting.

1:11:41Trey Harris, really good route runner. Used him more as a run blocker under Greg Roman, but he's got some real receiving chops. Brennan Thompson made some plays today. That guy can absolutely fly. You've got Keiondre Lambert-Smith, who was coming on last year before an injury. Darius Davis is another guy who you see him play, and you're like, that guy would make a lot of sense in a Mike McDaniel offense. They've got a lot of depth and a lot of talent, but I think the offense, from a passing game standpoint, is really going to flow through Ladd and his versatile skill set.

1:12:07Robert Mays: The running back room also is crowded in a good way. I think they're really happy with some of the things that Kamani Badal did last year. Oh, Marion Hampton in a better situation. we famously know that Mike McDaniel really wanted Keaton Mitchell. So as you think about how that workload is going to shake out, what roles those individual players are going to play, how do you think that ends up expressing? Yeah, I think Omarion is pretty clearly the top back. I mean, he's an unbelievable talent. And it was like a freak thing last year. He had an unbelievable game against the Giants. It looked like he was about to break out.

1:12:35And then he gets kicked in the ankle by Frankie Louvu and breaks his ankle and misses half the season. and so like his rookie season was was really related to like that injury i think he could be unbelievable in this offense i think the battle is going to be so who's going to be that number two guy like who's going to spell omarion obviously they're super high on keaton and his ability to press the edge and get explosive to the outside um but kamani is going to give him a push like he showed some really nice stuff last year i think ultimately it's probably going to be keen but you need three backs so they're all going to be on the roster and and i think by the time season starts, I would expect Amari and Keaton Kamani as the pecking order.

1:13:13Robert Mays: One of the interesting things that I was hearing talking to people today is just that there are certain offensive coaches that they'll come in and they'll be like, I need this, this, and this. And there's a little bit of that with Mike, right? He wanted Al Gingold. He wanted Keaton Mitchell. Charlie Kohler. Yes. That was my guy in free agency. That's different, though, than I need superstar-level talent in order to run this system. I need a fullback and a third speedback. I think those are acceptable demands. But they said that Mike came in and was like, it wasn't, I need this, this, and this.

1:13:41Robert Mays: It was looking at some of the pieces on the roster, like you're talking about the Brandon Thompson's and the Darius Davis's and saying, I can use this, this, and this. And so the clear vision he had for the types of players that he wanted, the types of players he could use and what he wanted the offense to be. I think that was a little bit different for this front office when it came to them being able to approach the way that they wanted to build it. when you have a head coach that becomes a coordinator and now he's in that role, he's been a part of the draft. He knows how the draft works and the player acquisition process and how it works.

1:14:14Robert Mays: And so I think that experience and his very clear-headed vision for what he wanted to do, it seems like that was a welcome change. I think that the front office appreciated that. Yeah. I mean, you can go back to the 2022 offseason and what the Chargers did on defense, trading for Kulimak, signing Sebastian Joseph Day, signing JC Jackson, signing Austin Johnson. They know what it looks like when a coach comes in and says, I need this to run my system. They also see what happens when that doesn't necessarily work out. So definitely a breath of fresh air, I would say. And I also think the fact that you're all, for some teams, if you ran a certain type of offense, especially on the ground, and you had built your offense through those types of offensive linemen, and then you have a system, a new coach coming in with a very different system, you can have some mismatched pieces.

1:14:57Robert Mays: And it was almost fortuitous for this team that they already knew they had to turn over 60 % of the offensive line. And so you're not married to a previous version of this that was fit for a different scheme. And so I honestly think it allows them to transition at full speed and in a more clean way than it might be for some other teams that were making this dramatic of a shift with the schemes that they were running. And they timed it up well where a bunch of their starting guys and depth guys were hitting free agencies. John Johnson, Jamari Sawyer, et cetera, et cetera. You know, they brought back Trevor Penning.

1:15:27They brought back Trey Pickett, Trey Pipkins, guys with some athleticism that they felt could play within the scheme. But that's been the most dramatic overhaul has been on the offensive line and just getting guys in the building that have the range and athleticism they're looking for, you know, like a Tyler B. Adish, like a Cole Strange. I mean, what are we, 25 minutes into this thing? We haven't even talked about center yet.

1:15:47Robert Mays: What about it? Just the upgraded center? Yeah. That's going to be a huge part of, of, of, of, you know, the improvement offensively. Absolutely. getting like a real professional capable starter in there and Tyler Biotish. But yeah, the offensive line looks incredibly different and you know, all the guys they add in the draft are all these like super athletic rangey type offensive linemen. It's been, it's been fun to watch them. Is left guard in your opinion, the most unsettled spot on the offensive on the offense period. Yeah. A hundred percent. It's coyote. I was Shika who they signed free agency has been getting, you know, the first reps with the starting offensive lineman.

1:16:16Jake slaughter was their second round pick and they want him to be the starter at left guard. That's going to be a battle though. And then I think they're going to get a look at Trevor Penning over there as well and see what ends up working out. But like it goes back to like when you have these two tackles in the football game, you'd be pretty solid. Yeah. You know, like in Mike's mind, it's like Mike McDaniel's mind. It's like, you know, with these tackles and a solid center, we can make it work at guard. You know, they're both, you know, Joe Alt, Rashawn Slater, both coming off season ending injuries.

1:16:43Rashawn in particular coming off a torn patellar tendon. So we've got to watch him through training camp. But when those guys are on the field, he's out there now, though. I mean, those guys are out there and healthy.

1:16:51Robert Mays: And overall, the roster is... Nobody's hurt right now. They're coming in and actually... You better knock on what Chargers fans are going to come for you. But when you compare it to what some other teams are dealing with right now, they're entering the season in a pretty decent spot, all things considered, especially when you think back to what it has been like in previous years for this team at times. It's also early. Yeah, it's very early. I covered this team for seven seasons. We've had this conversation before and been like, Hey, pretty healthy. It's going to be really fun when you leave the beat and then the Chargers win the Super Bowl.

1:17:19Yep. It could be great. It'll happen. It's the popper curse. I mean, Chargers fans were disgusted. They think it's happening because I'm leaving and then I'll take responsibility.

1:17:27Robert Mays: You know, congratulations to them and to you, my friend. Very good to see you. And we will do this again very soon. Awesome. Sounds good, man. Appreciate it.

1:17:38Robert Mays: Joining us now from a Cowboys training camp in Oxnard. It is our Cowboys writer, John Machado. How are you doing, man? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me on. Absolutely. Happy to be here. So let's dig into let's just start here. This team brings back every starter on offense. As you look at that unit, I mean, obviously left tackle was the biggest question. We can dig into that first if you want to. Anything else that's kind of unanswered for you when it comes to the offense? Or is it really just about who ends up winning that left tackle job at this point? I mean, if I'm ranking it, the left tackle job is clearly the number one question mark.

1:18:13But for me, number two is, is there number two running back spot? And that just because I look at Javante Williams and he had an outstanding season last year. Could he do that again? Absolutely. But to bank on that, like, I just feel like, especially in today's NFL, you need some type of a compliment. And they certainly want Jaden Blue to be that first two practices, no pads. But Jaden Blue has looked better than he did last year at training camp. He looks quick. he looked i mean he's running with a second group when they do individual drills clearly they want him to have that job his skill set way is as a pass catcher would be the perfect compliment to javante williams but uh that's not even close to being the left tackle spot question mark wise

1:18:52Robert Mays: i'm just surprised that it is as up in the air as it is a left tackle and the fact that they're not going to give tyler guyton every single chance to win that job and from what i gather being here for a day. He took every snap with the ones, but they've said that their plan is to kind of have guys do that for multiple days instead of rotating in and out each play, which fine, that's a way to approach it. But the idea that it's not a, ah, we'd like someone to push him for that job. It really does seem like, Hey, we're rolling the ball out and whoever the best guy is, is going to win that gig. It's almost a depressing place to land with a guy that you drafted in the first round two years ago, but that seems to be where they are.

1:19:26Yeah. And I don't know that you can do anything at this point to upgrade that position. I think you are with kind of what you have. So he's going to get every opportunity to win that job and be that guy there. And it's just tough because he does seem like he's going about it the right way, but there's just, it's just tough to know out here. There's no pads on when the pads do come on, you know, he'll, he'll get some good reps and they can figure it out there. I just don't know that they have another guy that they really would want to even put out there. Cause I don't think it would be Nate Thomas.

1:19:58I think they would move Tyler Smith from left guard out to left tackle. And then all of a sudden that weekends in interior and offensive line that they think can be a great strength to this team because they do believe Tyler Booker can be even better at right guard than he was as a rookie. So you could be dominant on the interior. You don't want to mess with that.

1:20:14Robert Mays: I totally agree. That's the I think the last thing you'd want to do. And the other guy I would say Brian Schottenheimer talked about him at his press conference today and Drew Shelton, who they drafted in the middle rounds this year. I think he's going to throw his hat in the ring, too. I wouldn't rule out him potentially getting a look there if they don't feel comfortable or happy with what they've seen over the first couple weeks. Yeah, there's no question that he'll be part of the mix. I think I get a little bit, I don't know, I probably read Twitter too much. And you get some of the draft folks talking about this is more of a project.

1:20:46You know, people that know his game better than I do. So I'm kind of looking at it like, all right, it's been a while since the Cowboys have found a starter in the mid to late rounds on the offensive line. Like, is this guy really possibly one of it could be? Hey, maybe he is. I just as we sit here right now, I just would be very surprised, very surprised if it's anybody but Tyler Guyton.

1:21:05Robert Mays: And Jaden Blue apparently had a nice spring. Obviously, there's a difference between evaluating what the on field product looks like, which we really can't do at this point. You're in shorts and then we're only two days into practice and evaluating what the approach has been like. And apparently his approach this spring in year two, just being a professional, being buttoned up the way that he's kind of going about things. I think they're happy with that. And if that question is being answered in a positive way, he clearly is the most dynamic second option that they can pair with Javante Williams.

1:21:34Absolutely. And I think for him, too, it's one of those things where you also understand the role that you have and the possibility of what you could be on an offense that is loaded everywhere else. like you can be the guy that is completely forgotten about every Sunday you go out there and an opposing defense like yeah that's like the sixth thing we're worried about right now you know and that would be so big for him because when he does get to the second level his speed is something that it's hard to compare in the league because after yesterday's practice when he busted off a big run I asked him you know about that play and what it did for his confidence and he was just saying he's like I feel like when I get to that point where it's me and I'm one-on-one with anybody in the second i'm there's nobody in the nfl that's stopping me like because of his speed obviously so all of that's there but it just seems like it's one of those things that he's got to just keep checking off all the boxes behind the scenes at all the team meetings the notes the preparation all of that because when he's on the field you definitely see why okay this is why they want him

1:22:33Robert Mays: to be the compliment it's the juice and also i think the pass catching like what he can add in that area one more viable receiving threat when you already have all the guys that we're talking and all the time about, I think that's a version of this offense you can get excited about. Pickens specifically, I'm really curious because Jerry came out during Jerry's infamous opening of the training camp press conference, which happens every single year. And he seemed to nod to the idea that Pickens is in their long-term plans, potentially, like they're not shutting that door. What do you think needs to happen for them to feel comfortable committing to him long-term in a way that they haven't so far you know obviously they have to be much better win loss wise I mean you can't win seven games again he can have a great they can have the same exact season they had last year where the offense is one of those top five offenses you win seven games it's not going to make much sense to then pay another receiver 35 plus million dollars a year so I almost look at it as this is going to sound like ridiculous to even say because the cow was have been in the Super Bowl in 30 years, but like almost like that Bengals run from a few years ago where it's like it's going to take like a deep playoff run to where you're like, maybe we can't let go of this.

1:23:43Right. Yeah. Right. Because, you know, you talk about that press conference while Jerry saying that stood out to me, but also Steven just being so open about how high on the list Quinn and Williams is to re-signing. And he's a contract that I don't see how you get that done north of thirty five million dollars. You know what I'm saying? So you can't just pay everybody so i feel like they know it's going to be really tough to keep what they have right now this year together and i think that's why jerry said about the things about hey i'm open to possibly trading a high pick in next year's draft to get a guy that can help us this year because he knows that this whole group might not be together because it is going to be he can say that he wants pickings for the rest of his career but that might be easier said than done i'll say

1:24:24Robert Mays: this i like this version of jerry jones where the jerry jones being like we are all in and then you look at the moves and it's just like come on man like let's be honest with each other here that version of jerry jones is not my favorite the version of jerry jones that's like wheeling and dealing and willing to do this kind of stuff and maybe it's a little bit too aggressive we haven't seen that version in a long time yeah like it's been a long time since the cowboys operated that way for a while and you can go too far obviously yeah but if you're gonna say that you're you want to win and you get that you are all in and this you're doing everything you can to improve the roster and you're doing it, I'm fine with that.

1:25:02Robert Mays: Like that, that version of this team and the messaging lining up with what you actually see from them, if they want to throw a one at somebody for some defender that they think they'll make it great. Like that's okay with me. I actually feel the water is warm back here where Jerry is actually the actions and the words are lined up in the way they seem to be over the last year or so. Absolutely. But I also say this, He can say all that stuff about being all in, even if he wasn't. But then the team goes on and they're going deep in the playoffs. They're playing in Super Bowls. People would be like he would have probably the loudest voice in the NFL.

1:25:36But the comparison I have often made over the last few years with him is he's become Denzel Washington in training day at the end of the movie where he's yelling in the street. Yeah. And eventually the whole neighborhood is just kind of like, OK, slowly walk away. And it's just kind of like, yeah, whatever. Like he's not carrying that same weight anymore. 30 years of not being in an NFC championship game will do that. And so it kind of wears on on fans, whether you're a Cowboys fan or a fan of another team. And so you want to see the action. You want to see the action speaking finally louder than the words.

1:26:07Robert Mays: Not a ton of questions other than left tackle in the second running back on offense. There's a ton of questions on defense. Obviously, Christian Parker was brought in here to turn this thing around. And I mean, the early returns, even talking to people on the offensive staff today about what he's brought and the perspective. And, you know, they're asking him certain questions about, well, why did the DB play this route this way? And it's like, well, you guys only have so many things you do off that route. And so even the perspective he's giving the offensive staff here to kind of improve the things they're doing.

1:26:35Robert Mays: I mean, so far, it seems like they're getting everything they wanted from Christian Parker, who is a notable hire in many ways. Yeah. And it seems like he was a hire that was probably a little bit opposite of what they had at Matt Eberflus. It's probably leaning in more to the, maybe the teaching side and things like that that maybe they weren't getting as much of with the veteran staff they had last year um maybe being a little bit more multiple really the getting the communication to where everyone's on the same page there were just too many times last year where guys were confused there was mistakes blown assignments that even if you had the talent out there i don't think this team was going very far they and and you know what to be fair to mady ever floos i can't sit there and say it's 100 on him it could have been players not being completely bought in it just it snowballed whereas all the injuries secondary i mean there were so many things that lead to just a disastrous outcome absolutely but there is certainly a buy-in that you can feel and you can hear and you can sense when you're around the players and that and that goes back to really even before otas in minicamp where you could just tell that he's a guy he's like a player's coach that they're gonna that they really buy into him the only thing for me is as at this point is just we just have to see it in a game just because he's never called the defense and so how that looks that will be ultimately how his coaching is decided you know the wins on Sunday will be what matters most but I just think that there's a lot of people because he hasn't been a DC that think that this Cowboys defense is going to be Vic Fangio's defense and I don't get the sense that that's what he wants to do he'll have some things that are like that but I just get the sense from being around him he really wants to you know put his own stamp on this I think it's also just the stamp the players tell you to put on it.

1:28:12Robert Mays: I mean, they're in a spot now, two days into camp where I think he's really open to any, the scheme is the scheme, right? Like the fundamental principles are going to be the same. Those are going to travel from place to place. He believes in the things that he's worked on with Vic over time. But when you start to figure out what your players do well, can they play a little bit more man? Like they did in Denver when Vic was there because the personnel they have, should they do that? Are they more like a zone heavy team because of some of the concerns they have at a certain position or two. I think right now, any answer to those questions is on the table.

1:28:43Robert Mays: There are just so many new pieces here working in a new defense that if you were trying to predict and you were saying right now, I know what we're going to be. I think you'd be lying to yourself and I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice. And so I think my, the way that I see it is that I think he's walking into this training camp with a very open mind about who's going to play and why and what that means for the style of defense they end up playing. Yeah, that's fair. I will also say that my thoughts about the defense changed significantly on the first night of the draft when they traded up and got Caleb Downs.

1:29:14While I think that Jalen Thompson, who has been working as one of their other starting safeties, he was their most notable free agency addition. I do think that he would probably play more nickel if they didn't draft Caleb Downs. But getting Caleb gives him this chess piece that makes me believe that they could be very multiple, do things from week to week that's different, where I wasn't necessarily believing that adding into the draft. I was kind of like, yeah, we'll see this. But then when they match Caleb with Christian Parker, that's when I was kind of like, you know what? They might have something here instead of it because covering the Cowboys.

1:29:46I'm just so used to the defenses they run being like this already works somewhere, whether it's Tampa to, you know, whether you go Monty Kiffin, Rod Marinelli, all the way into Mike Nolan. uh dan quinn mike zimmer and then obviously most recently matt eberfluss it's always been guys that have previously had success where it's like with christian parker there's a part of me i'm like hey maybe he's also kind of about where the league is going too and that's pretty attractive i mean

1:30:10Robert Mays: this is the first he's 34 years old when you compare that to the profile of coach they hired for that job over and over and over again i mean how many straight defensive coordinators did they have that were former head coaches four to five going back all the way to mike nolan well yeah right before well right before it though it was uh rod marinelli so he was the lions coach yeah i mean that's pretty much what they've chased it was ever since marinelli i mean i mean that's going back yeah that would be a decade at this point it would have been 2014 um i believe that's correct money kiffin i believe was 2013 because before monty was rob ryan and money kiffin might have been might as well have been a head coach i mean you're still right stealing or you're still picking off a tree of pedigreed guys who have done this at a very high level with the caleb downs thing specifically it seemed to me today you saw him in two spots he played nickel primarily when they were in nickel that's where he's done most of his work and then he played a little bit of dime when they were in dime that feels like the scope that they're going to start with before maybe expanding to see is he one of our starting safeties when we're in base but i the way that i see it now based on the players they have i don't see them playing a lot of base defense i think they'd like to live and nickel with him in that spot as often as they can i i don't think that there's enough talent on the defense to take him off the field i think he is absolutely has to be out there all the time to the point where you know a big topic of conversation around here for the last couple months has been the whole who's going to be the green dot calling the defense and they would prefer it to be a linebacker but caleb downs is in the mix they also would prefer to be a veteran, not a rookie that you're all of a sudden given that responsibility to.

1:31:46But I sit here today and I can't rule out that at some point this season, that Caleb Downs isn't the green dot calling the defense out there because they think that much of him. I just don't think right now, as we sit here two days, two practices in that they want to put all that on his plate quite yet, but he, he could be in the mix.

1:32:01Robert Mays: Christian Parker over the last few years, I mean, he's worked with guys that were good immediately in the defensive backfield, Patrick Sertan, Cooper Dejean, Quinion Mitchell. And it sounds like Caleb Downs is on the same sort of track as all of those guys when it comes to just a grasp he has for the defense, the questions that he's asking. I heard a story today that they were installing something and Cooper DeGene played the technique a little bit differently than you would read it on paper. And Cale was like, why did he do it that way? Like he noticed the small nuance difference in the technique.

1:32:28Robert Mays: And apparently it was some game plan specific thing that they did it a little bit differently. But even he's seeing that two days into training camp in a way that young defensive backs just don't normally. He's great with that stuff. But the one that stands out to me is a lot of the a lot of the stuff that you get to see as a reporter, the the way he carries himself, the, you know, stuff that happens before practice, the way he carries himself like around us. I'm bringing this up just to say, like, there's nothing about him. If you just showed up one day, didn't know who it was, I would have been like, yeah, this guy's a first round pick.

1:32:59Like, there's nothing about him that is rookie at all there. Everything about him is is I'm a veteran player. I'm a student of the game. in a way he kind of reminds me of just my time covering the cowboys of sean lee yeah where it's just like puts in a ton of time um i mean sean lee's career if it wasn't for the injuries i think would have been significantly better than it was i mean i i personally covering the cowboys on my 16th year i've never i haven't been around anybody that would say worked harder than sean lee that put in the time and i just get that same sense early on that that's who caleb downs is nickel

1:33:32Robert Mays: spot is set i think the safeties are set with malik cooker and jalen thompson back there the defensive front, I think they feel good about that group and some of the depth they have at that group. The two spots that really stick out in terms of we need to figure something out here, feel like off ball linebacker and that second outside corner spot. Would you say that's fair? And who do you think are the guys that are in the mix for those two spots? Yeah. So when Jerry talked about making potentially making a notable move, I immediately went to adding another edge rusher or inside linebacker and then third for me would be another another corner i just there's what they have at corner i think they're going to throw a bunch of bodies at it and kind of be like christian parker this is your area of expertise try and find some diamonds in the rough they feel solid about duran bland and kobe durant those have been the two starting outside corners here early in camp but savon revel who they drafted last year and he had a you know coming back from a knee issue at East Carolina, he wasn't able to really play towards the end of the season, but he is a guy that they think if it doesn't have the knee could be a potential first round pick type player.

1:34:35So they have some guys there that I think they want to try. The edge rusher position is the one for me where I just wonder if they're going to look to try and add someone else to add just a little bit more off of the edge. Um, because yeah, they have Rashawn Gary, they have Donovan Ziraku, they have Malachi Lawrence, but like Donovan Ziraku has come back from hip injury. Malachi Lawrence is a first round pick, but he might be a guy that needs a year or two before he gets fully to his potential. So edge rusher would be number one right now. If you told me that the Cowboys are going to make a notable move, I think that that's what it would be.

1:35:04Robert Mays: And I think with Revell, the importance of him potentially being able to get into the mix outside is that if you are going to play some dime defense, Kobe Durant's going to be the guy that bumps inside. And so you need one more guy to kind of fill out that cornerback room. And I think there's questions about who that is at off ball linebacker. I mean, right now, I think Demary and Overshawn probably has one of those spots fairly locked down. But other than that, it seems like a pretty glaring question about who the other guy is going to be. Yeah. So I would say right now it'd probably be overshone and D winners.

1:35:31That's the guys that have been out here running with the ones, which this has been kind of refreshing because there's been very few camps that I've showed up to that at the very beginning of camp, everybody's out there. There's usually always like not necessarily even on a guy on the pup list, but just someone who they're like, he's going to work on the cards off this side. We're going to work on it. Like everybody's out there. So it's been, it's been very refreshing. You can see where their plans are early on. I will say though, if Overshown stays healthy for a full season, he, no question, he's the guy that they love Overshown.

1:35:59The problem is that he has had trouble staying healthy. And because of it, that's why when free agency started, this is a team that was interested in Quay Walker. They were interested in the Kobe Dean. You know, they were interested in Lloyd because of the fact that they knew they needed to improve at inside linebacker. And since then, they drafted Jay Sean Barham in the third round and then they signed or they traded for D winners during the draft, but I don't know that they've done enough there either. They have done enough. If you tell me over shown play 17 games, that just is a big question mark right now.

1:36:27Robert Mays: And Barsham, I think will be, you talk about the edge rusher depth. I think he'll do a little bit of that. I think that he'll be a flexible piece. And I think you'll see him moved around him and Jihad Campbell played on the line of scrimmage for that team last year. Zach Bond does a little bit of that. And so I think there's a decent, and even guys like Jonathan Bullard and Otito Abonia, they've played in this system. They know what it takes to be kind of depth pieces, defend the run. And so it's not a lot of superstar talent outside of Quinn Williams, But I think overall, the six, seven, eight guys they have up front may be enough to make this group feel much different than it did a year ago.

1:36:56Yeah. And I really think that the talent is is enough right now. If they are, in fact, all bought in on everything Christian Parker is doing and that shows on the field. I don't see how this isn't a top 20 defense. And if they're just in that 16 to 20 range, I think that's good enough for how good I think this offense will be to where they should be a playoff contending team.

1:37:17Robert Mays: I'll say this to be the last point I make. I was sitting there on the sideline today. Dak completed a gorgeous throw down the left side. I think to George Pagan, just like dropped it into his hands in a one-on-one situation. But then it was a little bit later where CD beat Caleb Downs over the middle from the slot. Jack hits him in stride on the run, another explosive. And I was like, what are Dak's MVP outs? That was my response. The first thing I did after he caught that ball was I looked up what Dak's MVP odds are because I do think that there is a chance that we see some fireworks with this offense in year two.

1:37:46And certainly, and also there's just the bias of the Dallas Cowboys. If you have a Dallas Cowboys team that's rolling and is amongst the league leaders and wins, the Dallas Cowboys quarterback is going to be in the mix for an award like that. So it kind of goes back to that left tackle spot, though. You tell me that can at least be solid. I can see anything being possible on this offense. The weapons are everywhere. But you also need a quarterback in his 11th year to be upright. You know, you don't need him worried about his blind side all the time. So if that can just be, again, the left tackle spot just needs to be, like I said, about the defense.

1:38:22You don't have to be top 10. You don't have to be great. Let's just not be solid. Let's just not think about it.

1:38:26Robert Mays: We cannot think about the left tackle, the Cowboys offense being a good spot. John Machado, always good to see you, my friend. Always good to chat with you. Sincerely appreciate the time. Anytime, man. Good talking to you. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Our first notebook in the books. These will be coming your way every Saturday all the way through training camp. We got 21 stops. I assume we'll have at least four of these, maybe more with all the beat writers we're going to be able to chat with. So looking forward to continuing these throughout the summer for now. That's all we got.

1:38:56Robert Mays: Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

1:39:10Thank you.