We're going camping! Seahawks, Falcons, Commanders and Ravens

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1:18Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays, another beat writer notebook coming your guys' way today. I really enjoy doing these, man. This is a big part of one of my favorite times of the entire NFL calendar. Four more of these come in your guys' way. We started things off with the Super Bowl champs. Michael Sean Dugard no longer covers the Seahawks for us day to day. He has deservedly moved on to a national role at The Athletic, but obviously has a ton of knowledge about that team, has covered them for a long time, has written multiple books about them, including last year's Super Bowl team.

1:47Robert Mays: So great to catch up with Michael Sean about the state of the Seahawks as they defend their title. Next, got to talk to Josh Kendall, who does a great job covering the Falcons for us. Tough day. We were actually there on the day that Jalen Walker tore his ACL. So that hangs over the first part of our conversation. But a lot to dig into with Kevin Stefanski's first year in Atlanta. Next, we get to chat with Nicky Javala, our Washington Commanders beat writer at The Athletic. Just a quick heads up when you're listening to the conversation with Nicky. We did that and had that discussion on the day that the Commanders signed Stefan Diggs.

2:18Robert Mays: So obviously everything we talked about with the receivers is rendered a little bit moot, but we still wanted I thought it would still be good to hear kind of the background discussion and what it would have sounded like and what the considerations were before the dig signing did happen. So we're just going to leave that in there. Just know we recorded that several hours before the digs news came down. And then last but not least, a guy who just does a fantastic job on his beat covering the team that he has. Jeff Zerebek, who's our Ravens writer at The Athletic. Always love catching up with and visiting with Jeff in Owings Mills at the Ravens facility.

2:51Robert Mays: Really enjoyed that discussion. A lot of fun stuff to dig into in Baltimore. So that's what we got today. Seahawks, Falcons, Commanders, Ravens, all those beat writers coming your way. Let's get to it right now.

3:09Robert Mays: joining us now it is our former seahawks writer here at the athletic and one of our deserved newly minted national writers it's our guy michael sean dugar how you doing buddy what's up man how are you i'm doing okay i uh we're about a week into this thing i i'm staring down my red eye flight from seattle to houston tomorrow going straight to practice which every Every time I mention that to someone, they're like, you're a disgusting person. I was talking to Clayton Adams yesterday. He's just like, my God, man. Yeah, this is this is my worst day, but it's going to be fun. I'm looking forward to it.

3:44Robert Mays: Houston and Houston in August. Isn't that what everybody wants to do? Somehow you've created more of a grind than training camp already is. You know, for the people who are there every day, they just go home, you know, afterwards. Like, no, no, no, I'm here. And then I'm going to get on a plane. See ya. that's a, that's a grind. That's we're doing about a play in a day here for the next little while, but it's one of my favorite stretches of the year. I love doing this. And this is the second time I've had to do this in the last week where we have one of my favorite beat writers on, and I have to sort of lament the fact that we will no longer just be having conversations about the Seahawks in a way that's great because both you and Daniel very deserve it of these new opportunities.

4:25Robert Mays: I'm extremely excited for you guys, but also selfishly, I love talking to both of you about your respective teams. And it seems like this might be one of our last chances to do that. You're the Seahawks already got their rings. This is like your ring ceremony for your time as a beat writer on the athletic football show. I'll take it. Yeah. I told the, I was telling some guys on the team this, I was like, if you guys win the Superbowl, I'm probably going to like write another book. So please go win. So that happened. And then I didn't know I was getting a promotion too. So I was like, yeah, I got to thank Mike McDonald, John Snyder.

5:00I haven't seen them yet. Actually, Mike McDonald shouted me out when I told him about the promotion, Rookie Minicamp. He opened his press conference two months before I went to announce. He basically announced it. That was awkward. But he meant well. See, I got to shout out those guys. Yeah. And I mean, I always love talking ball with you, Robert. Anytime you need me, I'm going to make time to do it you know the Seahawks as you probably have seen online actually I know you and Nate definitely have that Seahawks fans think that no national people believe in them ever or know who any of their players are ever and when when that combo comes up I don't usually like step in and defend any national person I usually don't know them I was like no no no Nate and Robert they know like every tight end three on every roster like they believe in your team or they just don't because they've done the research, not because they just can't name your fourth receiver.

5:51So yeah, you always go to bat for you, whether I'm on the beat or not.

5:54Robert Mays: And I appreciate that because I think the irony of all of this is that I loved last year's Seahawks team and I loved them very quickly. Like as soon as I realized how good they were, it was one of my favorite parts about last season, watching this team on both sides of the ball. And I think when you are the defending champs, the question becomes, how are you going to defend that championship? What is it going to look like in the following year as you try to make sure that now you are the hunted? How do you evolve transition on both sides of the ball to kind of maintain that superiority? And let's start with the process of what that's looked like on offense.

6:27Robert Mays: Obviously, I mean, this is it. When you have a play caller come in on offense and just blow the doors off people in terms of expectations and just do such a great job in the way that Clint Kubiak did last year, they're going to get hired away. And it took one year based on the job that he did last year for Clint Kubiak to become the head coach of the Raiders. We bring in Brian Fleury from the Niners to be the play caller. This is something where you were covering the team day to day when this happened. And so I'm curious just your insight into why Brian Fleury was the choice for Mike McDonald and maybe how this is supposed to feel different and evolve from based on what Clint Kubiak did and maybe how some of the DNA is supposed to stay the same.

7:08Yeah, the Clint Kubiak thing on like a macro level to your point, like when you when you hire a guy, when you're when your coach specializes on one side of the ball and calls plays on that side, your likelihood of losing the guy on the other side of the ball is very high. And in this case, I don't even think the Seahawks had a top 10 offense in the Raiders. Like, we will take we'll take your guy. Obviously, it helps that they went to the Super Bowl, but the Super Bowl offensive performance wasn't, you know, super great. It was just competence can have you lose your guy. And that's an interesting place for teams to operate in, whether your coach calls the offense or your coach calls the defense, which is becoming a little bit more popular now.

7:47I believe after this last hiring cycle, a few teams hired defensive minded guys and said, hey, we want you to also call the defense. So that's that was interesting in itself. And I feel like that's important context to start with, because the Seahawks knew that and planned for that. Like they are thinking ahead. You know, John Snyder, he writes everything down before he even got this job as the general manager. He came up here to interview with a book of like, all right, here's who I would hire if they let me pick the head coach. Right. Obviously, Pete was already hired. So he had to throw the book out.

8:20But he's just always prepared for scenarios, kind of like a coordinator or a play caller, honestly. So they were kind of prepared, kept a short list. OK. And then how does someone like Brian Fleury get on this list? Well, institutional knowledge of the system that they run, the core principles of it, Shanahan stuff, that's a good place to start. It feels like everybody wants Shanahan principles. I'm sitting here like a new national person reading training camp reports from my couch. And I'm saying every OC is under center now. You know, everyone wants to use heavy personnel now because that's what Shanahan and McVay have been doing and thriving with.

8:58So I think that was part of her Brian Fleury. and I think uh the way he sees the game Mike McDonald was intrigued with uh in the interview because Mike McDonald's a weird guy you've interviewed him and like you can tell he his brain is going a thousand miles a minute when he talks ball he loves it and I think he saw his peer his equal in in Brian Fleury maybe not with how fast he talks but just the idea of like when you get rolling it's like oh wow and then we can do this and do that and do this you know I I saw a quote the other day that kind of sums this up from Ricky Gray's able. He was like, Brian's giving us the answers to the tests before we even take the test.

9:36And that's very similar to Mike McDonald. I think that's a perfect way to summarize why they would be good for one another. Mike McDonald gives you the answer. He gives you the answer you might not need until week eight. He might give it to you on August 3rd. You just didn't know until week eight. You see that formation. You see that alignment. You see the hash and you're like, oh, my God, it clicks like that. So Raven, when she sees the future, it's just, oh, my God. I know this is coming and it ends up being a PBU or whatever, or a run stop. I think Brian still needs to prove that. But I think that seeing the game that way is why he was the guy that chose to replace Kubiak.

10:09Robert Mays: I think all of this stuff is interconnected. And the first thing I'll say is one of my favorite things when you're talking to Mike about football, I'll ask him a question and he won't answer right away. Like he'll sit there and you can see him kind of marinating on what the right response is. And just that you see his brain firing. And it's just he's a thoughtful person that way. I always appreciated that about him. But this idea of the entire league going to this place where it's more under center, it's more heavy personnel. When you talk about getting to pick your offensive coordinator in the same way that John Schneider picked his head coach, the Ryan Grubb thing in year one happened as part of a process where you're a first time head coach.

10:45Robert Mays: There are a lot of other people maybe suggesting options to you. There are marriages that happen for reasons that maybe are outside of your personal tastes as a coach. And I think the going from Ryan Grubb to Clint Kubiak was a declaration of what Mike McDonald wants in an offensive system. And I think that that's rooted in Mike McDonald is a analytical, predictive thinker based on what the it's like a poker player. Like, what are the odds of what is going to happen in this scenario? How do I call the game that way when you're playing against an offense where they're giving you a lot of tells as to what that is going to be?

11:21Robert Mays: because the run and the pass isn't properly married together, that makes things easy on a defense. It would have been easy for Mike McDonald to play against Ryan Grubb. It is much harder for Mike McDonald to play against Clint Kubiak. And so I think that's why he wants to live in this world beyond the fact that it's the offensive system du jour. And when you take this a step further, what I think is really interesting about Brian Fleury's background is before he was an offensive coach with the Niners, he spent a couple of years as the director of football research for the Dolphins. So he was an analytics guy before he went back into coaching.

11:55Robert Mays: And I think for Mike McDonald specifically, a guy from this tree where every play is available to you at any time based on the way that you play. And somebody who's one of his biggest experiences in the league is in like an analytical processes job. It to me is like the perfect person to be the offensive coordinator for Mike McDonald. Yeah, Mike's just a big nerd. You know, I can appreciate that because I'm a football nerd, too. I'm still going to watch a lot of film in this new role. I watch a lot of film on other teams when I was covering the Seahawks just because I was intrigued. What is everybody else doing?

12:29What are these motions that Mike McDaniel has Tyree Kill doing? Or Tutu Atwell in 2023 in the season opener was like we're doing those same type of motions. And it just fried the brains of Pete Carroll and his staff for that first week. I think Tutu and Puka both went over 100 yards in week one in 2023. And it was like, what the hell is happening? And Mike McDonald's the same way. He's kind of driven. And me and him have talked about this. Like part of what drives him is like paranoia. It's like, oh, my God, what if they catch me? You know, like what happens if they figure me out? Am I a fraud?

13:04What do I do? He reminds me of Sean McVay in that way. They're always trying to make sure they don't get caught. Let me evolve first before people figure me out. and it's probably an unhealthy way to live that's why you read these deep dive profiles about these head coaches and it's like oh hey you need a vacation but in application these guys win a lot of games because they operate that way and so if Brian operates that way he's got a lot of stuff to figure out calling plays for the first time is very very very hard I don't care what your background is when you get when the bullets fly these DCs are good you you hit Thanksgiving believing and on these DCs are real deal we've put it on tape now but yeah like you said they're they're aligned kind of not only philosophically but just like in their nerdiness you know which I do think it is important I don't think grow up in him were aligned even in beyond other ways they were disaligned or misaligned they just weren't nerds I don't think in the same way yeah I think

13:59Robert Mays: that's why I'm really intrigued to watch what that partnership looks like the play calling part of it We'll see what his version of it is. But again, this year, it's going to look similar in a lot of ways to what it looked like last year because it should. That was the right offensive system to get the most out of these players. And I think continuing that is the right move. When you look at the offensive personnel, we're talking about the same cast of characters that are coming back almost exclusively outside of the running back room. And the first question I wanted to ask you, because I don't think you and I have talked about this since they made this decision.

14:29Robert Mays: This is a team that still has a decent amount of financial flexibility. if they wanted to, they probably could have paid Kenneth Walker. And I'm curious why they decided to let him walk and then cobble the running back room together post free agency with drafting Darian price rather than paying the sticker price for Kenneth Walker. I can understand it. I'm just curious what they've told you about why they ultimately landed on that decision. Yeah. I think this is one of those both sides ready for a split situations, you know, and doing the research for my book after the season, kind of realized, oh, Ken was being nice.

15:07Or, you know, Ken didn't want to stir the pot. Ken was like anti-wide receiver one behavior, you know, because Ken had been the guy. I think he technically started every game last year, but he had been the guy in a way that suggested greater volume, greater touches, just more involvement in the offense. And they diminished that role intentionally for reasons tied to Ken's health, but also just like they love Zach Charbonnet. And if you're Ken, it's like, wow, perfect timing to diminish my role. And his contract here, you know, understanding he had had some health concerns in the previous seasons.

15:43But Ken was not happy about how that was going. Now, he was able to be happy for Zach and be happy that they were winning. You know, and just be happy that the offense was having success on the days that it did. But he's admitted this. And I've heard this behind the scenes, too. Like he had to call his dad before and be like, dad, man, like kind of talk me through this. I'm really upset. You know, I mean, there were times that you watch the games, Robert, they would get Ken would get them down there. And next thing you know, George Helani is in the game on first and goal from the four.

16:09Robert Mays: Oh, I promise you as a Kenneth Walker fantasy supporter. I was very cognizant of that last season. Yes. Yeah. So now imagine being Ken and he's like, OK, I love George. I grind with George every day or I grind with Zach every day. But it's like, OK, what's going on here? Like I'm so used to getting these touches. I think he had four rushing touchdowns. Ken did in the regular season. I think two of them came in a game. Zach didn't play, you know, that's the only time he was really getting the touches, you know, at least near the goal line, which is how you get paid, you know, by scoring down there.

16:41So I think the paying running backs has kind of not been John Snyder's thing for a minute. You know, he he gave Chris Carson a pretty bargaining contract after the 2020 season. And then immediately that went south. You know, Chris basically had to medically retire because of a neck issue before the midway point of the very next season. They pretty much regretted giving Marshawn the most recent deal they gave him. So I kind of knew they wouldn't pay a running back. That's just kind of not how it goes. John Snyder, the way he operates is I love running backs in the draft. Like he'll he will draft a running back.

17:14He used to play running back in high school. That's the first position he ever scouted. He loves it to his core. He will always value it in the draft, perhaps more than any other GM that's not Brad Holmes. Maybe like he they both love running backs in that in that way.

17:30Robert Mays: So in terms of draft capital over the last decade, I don't even think it's a conversation. I mean, you've spent two first round picks and two second round picks since what year was Rashad Penny drafted? 2018. So in the last eight years, two firsts and two seconds. I don't think anyone else is even in that zip code. Yeah. And so that that part, I think, wasn't that surprising. It was learning how Ken was basically just like, I don't say masking frustrations, but just being a team player. You know, I think. And that's why I kind of could see those breadcrumbs last year when, you know, Mike McDonald is one of those coaches who does the weekly captains instead of season long ones.

18:07They announced it every Friday. And when they had someone, I was like curious about how they became a captain. It'd be one per unit. Ken would be the offensive captain one week. And I always ask Mike McDonald, what do you do? Like, what? This week, why is Ken the captain? And almost all of his answers were about Ken's attitude and how he was practicing. And I never thought that was a coincidence. I was like, hmm, it's interesting that you keep highlighting this guy's attitude. A guy who's basically a veteran, you know, in his fourth season. So like, hmm, that's weird. And now I kind of see now, you know, everyone was kind of playing nice, doing what's best for the team.

18:38And I would have been shocked if Ken would have resigned. I just think he wanted to feel a little bit more needed. and he's needed in Kansas City in a way that he's just kind of not here at this point.

18:50Robert Mays: His he was needed within the offense at the end of last season just for the explosiveness that he provided. Right. I mean, being able to be that explosive on the ground was a huge component for what the Seahawks offense felt like down the stretch. And now I think that charge lies with Jadarian Price, especially with Zach Charbonnet out. It feels like he's going to get some early opportunities. As you look at that, it's recording this on Friday, July 31st. You're not there every day now, but you're obviously we're around the team all off season. You have an idea of how they're seeing this. If you could kind of predict or give your thought about how this running back room will unfold, how the workload will unfold.

19:24Robert Mays: What do you think that is going to look like both before Zach Charbonnet gets back and potentially after Zach Charbonnet gets back and when that will happen also? Yeah. You know, I would imagine Zach being back early in the season. Week one seems like a stretch. I know we got all this ACL medicine, but like all that acro medicine that's what it feels like it's just new just just spray it on like an i robot when he just sprayed his uh sprayed his arm metal or arm skin back on it's like ah you blew your knee up huh well here's the spray and get it get out there daniel jones achilles be damned right it's just it's kind of crazy seeing these guys who can move around and and stuff like that so but anyway i expect zach to be back first month of the season but i think we're also in this world where we're eventually going to run out of two person running back nicknames because every team is going to be trying to do that now every team's got Sonic and Knuckles Thunder and Lightning one two punch we're going to have so many teams trying to do that we're going to run out of nicknames so I think the Seahawks are going to still try to be that it's just going to be Jadarian and George Helani and off the top of my head I cannot think of anything catchy with their two names I don't know JD and GH I don't I don't know but I think they're going to try to figure it out and run a one-two punch out there.

20:35I just think that's going to be the new normal in this world as everyone does the Shanahan tree thing, unless you just got a freak of nature, Derek Henry, you know, whatever type. But obviously the Seahawks don't have that. So I think it's actually going to work out fine. I'm not really concerned about their running back room. I watched a lot of tape on Jadarian before I took this national job. I've been watching George since they got him as a UDFA. You know, he was in the same backfield as Ashton Gentry. So I've seen a little bit of him as well. Just watching Boise State games, watching them play Washington State and stuff like that.

21:08I think they'll be fine. You know, the continuity up front on the offensive line just feels like unprecedented in the Seahawks world. I have watched them turn guards and centers and tackles for years and years and years. So when I look at the run game, yes, obviously the guy carrying the ball is very important. But the fact that they're bringing back all five guys, which and the old line first. Yes.

21:32Robert Mays: Yes. To lose your head coach and your play caller and keep the line coach plus the five starters. I mean, just it's not a place we're used to being. I think every single offseason, it felt like we would have spent this time. If we're talking for 25 minutes, 18 of it would have been on what was going to happen along the offensive line. And the fact that we don't really have to do that. It's a new world covering and thinking about the Seattle Seahawks based on how the last year went. And Chris, my co-host on the Seahawks Man to Man podcast, which we're discontinuing now, but Chris and I, we joked last year, it's like we weren't even talking about the O-line.

22:05We used to open damn near every game post-game pod being like, all right, guys, let's talk about the O-lines. Gino got killed today. Russ got killed today. This is why they lost. We never did. We didn't do that last year. The O-line was never the story for better or worse, really. They really weren't the story when they won games and they really weren't the story when they lost games either. And that's just an interesting role to be in. I feel like that continuity, that stability there does help counteract some of the newness with the play caller. Because I just think with the play caller, and this ties into the run game and the explosive that you mentioned, you got a quarterback who led the league in turnovers.

22:40An offense that was like by EPA per play and some other metrics, slightly above average. They were just so explosive. And I think that's going to be the hard part to replicate because Clint knew when to press the buttons. I just think he was very, very good at that. and just very timely. You look at the NFC Championship game. What happens after they muffed the punt? Boom, Jake Bobo, first play, big one. What happens after Rashid Shaheed gets the big reverse on Thursday Night Football? You get the A.J. Barner tossback play that they hadn't run since Jacksonville in like week six, but Clint knew what button to press to get the safety to overrun.

23:16There was just so many of those. Same thing in the Super Bowl, A.J. Barner's touchdown. And I could go on and on and on. there were just so many correctly pressed buttons and you know this because you watch a lot of teams that is really the difference sometimes that play doesn't work that that blitz that gets you that you know spags is really good at that in timely situations sending that blitz to confuse guys like when your oc has the answers again we go back to having the answers to the test and knows what buttons to press that's how you win in the margins and the nfc west whoever you think is going to win doesn't really matter you they're going to have to win in the margins and that's where the Seahawks are kind of operating at a disadvantage from a play caller standpoint.

23:54But again, I just think their advantage over some of the other teams in the division is the fact that they're bringing back their five big boys. And that's just so rare right now.

24:02Robert Mays: I love you pointing that out because I think that they're, we talked about this all year with Clint last year, where there are two different aspects to being the main architect and play caller of your offense. There's the plan, right? Like there's the architecture of your offense. What personnel groupings are you in? How are you mixing those up? The identity of how you want to play. and then their situational play calling decisions. He was excellent in both. It wasn't just the fact that they changed to a system that was easier on the offensive line that allowed JSN to get unlocked because they're in all this heavy personnel.

24:27Robert Mays: His situational play calling was fantastic. And even if you're carrying over the architecture, the situational play calling becomes the question. The other part of the offense, before we quickly hit the defense that I wanted to ask you, what I always loved about the Legion of Boomera Seahawks is that every year it felt like a different guy rose, right? There was a year where like Bobby Wagner felt like the most important player. There was a year where Earl Thomas felt like the most important player. There was a year where Michael Bennett felt like the most important player. It kind of shifted in a way that you need to if you're going to maintain success.

24:55Robert Mays: As you look at the offense for the Seahawks this year, we have Elijah Arroyo in year two, Torrey Horton coming back from injury, Rashid Shahid with the full offseason. Who do you think is going to be a more prominent part of this version of the Seahawks offense compared to what we saw from them last year? I think it has to be Rashid Shahid. And I rewatched every game last year when I was doing my book. And it was just like, one of my conclusions was, oh boy, if they get the Shahid guy the ball, some of these games don't even have to be close. They didn't have that many close ones as is. And I think you really saw that in both of the wins against the Rams.

25:32You know, Shahid was just able to flip the game when he touched the ball and he didn't need to touch it that often. And I think that's very important too. Some of these guys can have these gaudy numbers on high volume. You know, it's like a basketball player who takes 20 shots a game. Well, yeah, maybe you should average 28 points, you know, but who are my role players? Who are my guys who only need the ball five, six times? What can really impact the game? Shahid was kind of like that, but he has the potential for a slight uptick. You know, look at the first drive of the NFC championship game.

25:58It's a bomb. Sets the tone, right? Now everything's kind of kind of changed. Now the crowds rolling and it was kind of the Seahawks game from there. And I mean, even look in the Super Bowl. These are kind of hypotheticals, but like he catches just like one or two of those bombs from Sam and the Seahawks hang 40 on the Patriots. If Christian Gonzalez isn't just morphing like prime Deion Sanders in that game. So I think when they if they can just get him the ball a little more, that probably means decreasing Jackson's usage a little bit. You know, off the top of my head, I believe he had like the highest target share of any receiver since Brandon Marshall 2012, I believe.

26:36So like Jackson was eating a lot of the ball. Maybe you drop that a little bit To more just average number But then you increase Shahid I think that's gotta be the guy He's the one who And you know this talking to defensive coordinators They're all afraid of explosives No defensive coordinator, I don't care what tree you're from How old you are, whether you're 30 years old Or 57 years old You're afraid of explosives Well who on the Seahawks is giving you that fear other than Jackson Right now until Jadar improves himself It's Shahid And I think that once they unlock him that their offense goes to a whole new level.

27:10It actually probably will be an elite one this year.

27:12Robert Mays: Speaking of elite, that's what we expect the defense to be. I mean, this group, when you look at what they were down the stretch last year, it's incredible their ability to get this high level play on seemingly anybody who walks through that thing. Like Drake Thomas is the best example. Like what Drake Thomas was for this defense last year and just how seamless it all feels seemingly no matter who's back there is incredible. They're the best defense in football. I can expect them to be one of, if not the best defenses in football this year, because we said that you said this at the top. And this idea that if you have a play caller on one side of the ball and you have success, you could potentially lose the other one.

27:47Robert Mays: I think that was always the fear with often with defensive minded head coaches. But Mike is the defensive version of the Shanahan's and the McVeigh's and all of that. Like he is just set up, I think, to give you consistent elite defensive production every year in ways that very few defensive coaches are. and I expect that to happen again. What am I not thinking enough about? Like, if that's not going to happen, where do you think the cracks in this potentially are that threaten the Seahawks maintaining that elite level of defensive play? Because at first glance, it doesn't, there aren't a ton of reasons to believe they won't be that sort of unit again, but you think about this and have to think about this in a slightly different way than I do.

28:29Yeah, you know, like if I was, if someone paid me and said, Mike, okay, here, I want you to, how do I attack the Seahawks? Help me. Yeah, I would say, this is going to cost you. And then I would say, okay, we need some explosives outside the numbers. That's what we got to do. That's basically the vulnerability. I'm keeping the ball away from Julian Love. I'm keeping the ball away from Ernest Jones. You know, like the spine of the defense is very solid. Okay, well, how do we get that? You know, and I think I would go look to some of the games in the playoffs where they obviously Rick Willen's gone, but like, I would go after Josh Jobe.

29:00You know, Josh Jobe was great. He was outstanding in the Super Bowl But he's probably the one guy Who doesn't have the same traits As some of the other guys In that secondary Like Spoon can fly Julian's always a step ahead of the defense But it's like, well, Job's just a step slower Than some of those other guys And that's where you'd have to win Now, that's not a great place to have to win That's why when the There's a reason that's the place you have to win

29:27Robert Mays: Yeah, it's hard It's the hardest place to win It's very, very, very hard And that's probably one of their few vulnerabilities Is just trying to attack outside the numbers Hoping you can beat those guys on some Long shots, and you saw that in the NFC Championship Game too, where Sean McVay was like, let's just air this out Like, we gotta just go for broke Here, because we're not gonna pick these guys apart With 12, 13, 14 play Drives, and I think that's why The Niners struggled quite a bit, because they were just Brock just had no hope throwing Some of those outside the number stuff guys Just couldn't get open, the other part that's Interesting is that your Chicago Bears stole probably one of my favorite players from the defense is Kobe Bryant.

30:04I love Kobe Bryant. Kobe's he told me his rookie year is like because he got moved from corner to nickel and playing safety. He was just I was like, how are you dealing with all this? He said, Mike, I'm a football player. You put me somewhere. I'm going to play football. I'm going to play well. I just never forgot that. And he was just such an underrated player in the middle of that deep part where Earl Thomas used to man for years. And you just didn't see a lot of balls going there. And now they don't have that. Julian Love's not a free safety. He'll tell you that he's not, he's a box guy. So what now?

30:33Tai Okada's there, maybe Bud Clark, the rookie there. Who knows? And I think that's the other part, that if there is a vulnerability or they do have some cracks, it's maybe giving us some explosives earlier in the year because they're a little bit more vulnerable than they're used to being in the deep middle part of the field where as before they could just say, hey, Kobe, you got it. Well, now they can't do that. That's why Kobe got 40 million or whatever. What do you do now? And I think that's probably the other place to attack.

31:00Robert Mays: Is your sense that Bud Clark and Julian Neal, their second and third round picks, are going to be in the mix to be that second safety and that third corner sooner rather than later? Because personnel-wise, those are absolutely the biggest questions. It's a reason that that's where their draft capital landed. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think that safety has to be an open competition. I don't think they wouldn't be here if they just handed spots to guys. Like Ty Okada has to go earn it. Ty started, I think, nine games last year. Ty is a very good player. But he still has to go prove it as being the guy.

31:29You know, you're graded on a different curve when you're the substitute teacher. Like what happens when you're there every day? Then we really care about what the test scores are for these kids. We just hope they don't kill each other when you're there, when you're the sub. You get in there, play them a movie and just and collect your check. Right. It's different than being the guy. And that's the role that Taukata is going to be in right now. And again, he's a very good player, very good ball skills. Go look at his interception against the commanders in week nine. That's probably one of the better interceptions of the entire NFL season in 2025.

31:57Just magnificent. in. So he can catch the ball. He can track it. He can hit, you know, he can do all that stuff. Again, it's just, can you do it? Consistency being a free safety in this league? I don't is probably one of those few positions. That's not about splash plays. It's about, if you do your job, the ball doesn't even go over there. It's about preventing splash plays. Are you,

32:15Robert Mays: are you in the background of other teams splash plays? If the answer to that is no, you're probably doing your job pretty well. Michael Sean Dugar sincerely appreciate the time, sir. If this is the last time that we do this during a training camp, just know that I've enjoyed it every single time. And you are very deserving of all the stuff that's come your way, my friend. We'll talk to you very soon. Appreciate you as always having me, Robert. Thanks, man. You know that hoodie you can't stop reaching for? The one that feels like a second skin, soft, warm, and somehow makes you feel a little more grounded?

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37:00Robert Mays: joining me now from a perch overlooking the practice fields in flowery branch georgia i'm sure you guys can hear the lawnmowers the nature of doing it here is our falcons writer josh kambel josh how you doing man good how are you i'm okay what a disastrous way to end practice as soon as training camp starts you can just about count on one of these every day and today Unfortunately, it's the Falcons turn and, you know, a guy that they can like, you know, you can't afford to lose anybody, but you sure can't afford to lose Jalen Walker. And it looks like they have. It's Tuesday. So you guys will be listening to this several days after the Jalen Walker injury has happened.

37:36Robert Mays: But we're recording it an hour after that injury happens. They had about 10 minutes left in practice. One of the last plays they would likely run in 11 on 11 in a final team period. And somebody goes down behind the play and trying to figure out who it is. It's like, oh, it's 11. And so maybe the guy in your defense, other than AJ Terrell, maybe one of the safeties you could afford to lose the least. And I can make an argument that it might be Jalen Walker just because you have no depth at that position. And so a front that was already kind of a question mark and didn't have a lot of pieces you felt really solid about now loses its most important player.

38:13Well, if and if we can fast forward to the James Pierce Jr. part of this conversation last year, you draft Walker and Pierce in the first round. You have a franchise record, 57 sacks. Now you're looking at a 2026, most of which you'll be without both of them in theory, because Pierce is looking at a big suspension from the NFL.

38:31Robert Mays: And for this year specifically, it's kind of whatever. And we'll talk about that, like what this season is for the Falcons. If the Falcons, let's just hypothetically, let's play this out. Let's say James Pierce doesn't play half the season. You do have Jalen Walker. You're the 18th best defense in the league. You go six and 11. That's not the most. That's not the thing we're worried about. It's the fact that when you're in this transition period, it's all about what is your young core look like moving forward. Jalen Walker was supposed to be a solidified member of that young core. And now in year two, where you hope to see a step forward from him, you're not going to see him at all.

39:04Robert Mays: And that is the most depressing part of this. And not just on the field. He is a guy that they drafted as a captain in waiting. The moment he stepped in the building, they said, this guy is a future captain. This is what we want to be about on defense. He's a coach's kid. He played at the University of Georgia. He was one of Kirby Smart's favorite. He sort of went through that fire. He was going to be their guy to bring that mentality into Atlanta. He'll still be in the locker room, but you can only have so much impact if you're only in the meeting room. So it's a huge blow. You look at the defensive front and I was talking to people today just like, where do you feel like you need the most answers?

39:41Robert Mays: Where are your points of concern a month out? and that up front defensively was something that i think a lot of guys are if not worried about then like yeah we need some guys to step up there other than that area or i guess would you say that's fair like as you think about the roster you think the defensive front is kind of the biggest question mark you would currently have right now yeah absolutely i mean they've got probably half a dozen ifs i don't know that they've got any definites any yeses who are the who are the guys you feel best about among that group right now? Brandon Dorlis, if we're talking about pass rush.

40:16Mason Smith and Deshaun Hand, if we're talking about stopping the run, which this team needed help with. But I'm not talking about a Pro Bowl level. I'm just talking about getting you to 18th or 16th best run defense in the league, like you were saying.

40:31Robert Mays: On the back end, I think really the only question at this point is going to be when does Billy Bowman come back? When he does, he's likely going to be your starting nickel. But that has allowed them to kind of try out some other guys in that spot. I mean, even Terrell was in there today a little bit. And so, but other than that, is there anything else on the back end with like the DBs specifically that you still have questions about? No. I mean, it's Jesse Bates and Xavier Watts at safety. You know, for all of the question marks Atlanta has, safety is not one of them. They've got one of the best safety duos in the league.

41:00Mike Hughes, I think, is going to hold on to an outside corner spot. I don't think Avion Terrell is going to take that job. the secondary should be a strength of this team because they've got some talent and some depth that's the that's what you feel the best about if you're the falcons yeah i think the avance

41:15Robert Mays: around thing is maybe next year you know i guess the second outside corner of the future but like you said mike hughes has held down that spot fairly well over the last few years he probably will again the defense we can talk about that i mean i think jeff olbrick did a fantastic job last year it's part of the reason he's back this year i think they have the right people in place overseeing that I kind of understand what the defense is offensively that's where all of the questions come so let's start with the biggest question in your mind what does this quarterback battle and what does this quarterback conversation look like between now and the month before week one I think that it's going to be a lot of question marks and I don't think we're I don't even think we're going to get a definitive answer in week one that's my overarching theme that it so far through camp.

42:02I think it's very unlikely that one guy starts 17 games for this team. I think Tua is going to get a chance. I think Michael Penix is going to get a chance. I think Tua probably, if he can get back in the full swing of practice, he's been out with back tightness, probably is your week one starter. But if you're the Atlanta Falcons, you've got to have an answer on Michael Penix Jr. by the end of this year. So I feel like you've got to see him on the field.

42:27Robert Mays: the fact and i know there's reasons behind this tua has been cleared for 11 on 11 to is healthy enough to play 11 on 11 snaps he's just limited right now because the back penix hasn't been cleared to play 11 on 11 so just by virtue of who's available for practice over the next month it's probably going to be too early on but the fact that it seems like two has had the inside track and that he's had the best chance to be the starter doesn't that tell you all you need to know about how they feel about Michael Penix? Probably so. But I feel like if you're the Falcons, the road is so much nicer if this guy, that not you, but this team drafted in the top 10 two years ago, can be your answer.

43:08If you have a quarterback, everything becomes easier. If you don't, then the future gets really cloudy, especially when you live in the NFC South and you could just stumble to nine and eight and the playoffs, which is great. It would be your first playoff appearance in nine years. Would also mean you do not, you don't have an answer at quarterback in 27.

43:34Robert Mays: That's part of the problem with this is that some of these teams, Arizona, for example, right? Like Arizona is probably going to be bad enough. They're going to be in a position to draft the quarterback next year. In this division, you could have a similar sort of season to the one that the Cardinals are having. And I think there's a lot of parallels. where you have question mark a quarterback moving forward. You have a skill position group that you're really excited about, an offensive line that's probably a little bit underrated, that has a hole at right tackle. This team lost Elijah Wilkinson from last year.

44:01Robert Mays: Arizona got Elijah Wilkinson. But the Cardinals are going to be in a murderer's row in the NFC West where they could be a similar type of team and win four games. The Falcons could be the exact same type of team and win eight games and then put themselves into purgatory. Right, which is where they've lived a lot. But they bounce between 7 and 10 and 8 and 9, going back to the Dan Quinn era, essentially. And that keeps you at 7 and 10 and 8 and 9. It's hard to play this game because we were talking about this earlier, and I think that there's a solid argument for this. Being so bad that you're in a position to find that next quarterback is probably the best case scenario for the long-term health of the franchise.

44:43Robert Mays: But no one here wants to do that. No one here is like, oh, yeah, I wish I hope we're bad. So we're in a position to draft a quarterback. And I think that includes the people in charge. But you can make an argument that probably is the best outcome for this team where there's enough to be excited about. You're excited about the foundation. You know, the playmakers that you have moving forward. But the defense bottoms out a little bit because you are banged up up front and you are like a three, four, five win team. But I just I don't know in this division with the amount of talent that they have.

45:11Robert Mays: I'm just not sure that's a realistic path. not just that it's in this division, it's that in the offseason, Arthur Blank, the long-suffering owner of this team, kind of blew the whole thing up. And Odysseus has returned from fighting the wars in Indianapolis and fought his way back home, and now Matt Ryan is in charge to save the day. And he brings in Kevin Stefanski, who's well-regarded, and Ian Cunningham, who is well-liked. And so you're telling your fan base, it's a new era. Here we go. You can get excited again. but hang on you can't get excited for a year we've got to we've got to take a gap year until you can get excited so there's a ton of tension between those two things but i think that's i think that's right and i think that it's important to realize like what's going on and you have to listen to the moves that the team made in the offseason in order to set expectations and when you look at the moves that the falcons made this offseason they signed a million free agents all of them for like four million dollars the quarterback they signed was for a million bucks.

46:12Robert Mays: When those are the moves you've made in totality and you don't have a first round pick, the organization is sending you a message of what they hope to accomplish in year one. I think what they hope to accomplish is we want answers. It's not necessarily about results. And that's not the most fun thing to hear as a fan, but I think that's the reality of the situation that we're talking about here. Even after signing Drake London, Kyle Pitts, Matthew Bergeron, and Drake Drake London. The four of them. I don't know. B-John. Yeah, there's the one I forgot. B-John got signed today. So we can talk about that in a second.

46:45B-John, even after that, look at the 2027 cap for this team. They've got a ton of room. Yes. They have cleared the decks. They have gotten the books in order. They have firmed up some of the young offensive stars, which is what you're excited about with this team. But, you know, this fan base that's just been living in this desert doesn't want to wait another year as much as it looks like they're going to have to wait another year.

47:11Robert Mays: Let's talk about that core of skill position players in the offense, because even if there are question marks about some of the defensive personnel, question marks, a quarterback, that trio of guys, it's been kind of a winding road, but we've gotten to a place where it kind of is what we were promised it was supposed to be. Maybe Kyle Pitts isn't to that level of what we thought he was going to be as a prospect, but the idea of building your offense around those three skill position players, it kind of has come out on the other side where that is, in a good way, who the Atlanta Falcons are. Absolutely.

47:44If you could just, if you could plug above average, let's dream a minute and say above average quarterback play into this group, it would be one of the most exciting teams in the league. Bijan and Drake are, Bijan is as good as there anybody in the league. Drake is, boy, I think right there on that second tier of receivers. Kyle Pitts is not going to be the unicorn. He's not the unicorn, but he can be a really dangerous tight end. We've seen that at times. This could be a really fun team to watch offensively if they can get good quarterback play.

48:18Robert Mays: What do you think the offense is going to look like? Because I think that's the next big question, right? Tommy Reese comes in as the play caller from day one. He took over midway through the season twice over the last couple of years for a lot of different reasons in Cleveland, but they're not even pretending that's how it's going to go this year. They came in, Kevin Stefanski said from the beginning, Tommy Reese is going to be the play caller. He's the offensive coordinator. What do you expect the offense to look like in year one of a regime that I think has a lot of reasons to try some different stuff than they did when they were in Cleveland?

48:48I think they're going to run the mess out of the ball. I think they're going to throw a ton of screen passes, and I think you're going to throw some up to Drake. Alameda Zaccheaus, I'm not sure he's the deep threat you want. Jahan Dodson, maybe he hits, I wouldn't say, a second part of his career. Maybe he finally hits the first part of what we thought he might be at one point. But this does not look like an explosive offense. This looks like a run the ball, throw a bunch of screen passes, and hope Drake hits a big play every now and then.

49:18Robert Mays: That collection of pass catchers outside of Drake London, that's one where you're like, all right, we're just getting by here. They're going to have to get creative in what this thing looks like. And a couple of different things that stood out to me, just talking to people and observing practice today. Like, I think that with the way they built the staff offensively was interesting because you have Tommy Reese, you have Bill Callahan, you have Kevin Stefanski. That was part of the group in Cleveland over the last few years, even though Bill obviously wasn't there the last two. But, you know, you have Kevin Stefanski, you have Bill Callahan, you have Tommy Reese that come over from Cleveland.

49:50Robert Mays: But it seems like they really make a concerted effort this offseason to not just get the whole band back together. Robert Prince comes over from Miami, which I'm sure that they're going to be able to incorporate some of those ideas and what Tua really likes to do as their wide receivers coach. Tanner Ankschern is their passing game coordinator, was obviously with the Jets last year, but comes from that Detroit world with Ben Johnson. And so that to me is what's interesting about this is that I don't think that we're just going to take the Cleveland playbook, plop it on the ground here in Atlanta.

50:18Robert Mays: And that's what the offense is going to look like. I expect to see some pretty substantial evolution in part because that's what Tommy Reese wants to do. And in part because they brought in guys from the outside to kind of inject this thing with some new ideas they didn't have before. And a lot of days, the kids who is back in Atlanta after being with the Bears, being with the Eagles, says it's a lot of everything he's seen in the last three or four years. There are pieces of everything. So I think that you're right. And I think that another, if we're looking for silver linings in what may be a gap year, is you can try some stuff.

50:53Yes. You can feel like we are not necessarily playing at the highest stakes in the world right now. We don't believe we're a Super Bowl team, even if we say, you know, we talk about the Super Bowl because everybody does in the first two weeks of August. We can see what works and see what doesn't.

51:10Robert Mays: I mean, I think it's going to be about in terms of production. If you're like looking at that trio of guys as fantasy assets, this is all going to be about getting to a certain floor of quarterback play. And if Tua can get to that floor, the amount of work that the combination of Drake, Bijan and Kyle Pitts is going to get is absurd. I mean, there are other situations like this where it feels consolidated because there aren't just that many other options. This might be the most drastic version of that in the entire league. You have one receiver and one tight end that you feel have to be central pieces to the passing game.

51:41Robert Mays: And that's it. So whatever Drake London's like overall target share and the focus he's had within the offense in previous years, I wouldn't be surprised if he was shattering that stuff this year. It's just going to be about can the quarterback play be good enough to make good on how much of what that workload looks like? Yeah, he's absolutely. Drake is absolutely a sort of a fantasy wild card because I could see an option. I think he has triple crown type ability. Yeah. But if they don't get, you know, if the quarterback play is no better than it might be, you know, he's not going to be worth a second round pick in your fantasy draft.

52:20But if they get decent quarterback play, you know, he's going to put up huge numbers.

52:24Robert Mays: And I think that's honestly one of the arguments for having to as your starter, because if you're starting from a place where the best part about this team is that trio of playmakers. you want a quarterback that is able to access and unlock that trio of playmakers right just somebody that can play point guard that can distribute that can get the ball out quickly and i do think he is that answer it's not an exciting answer but if we're trying to do everything we can as a staff to make sure we're unlocking the three really good skill position players that we have i do think two is the best answer a quarterback to do that at least in the short term.

53:01I think he certainly gives you more of a constant. I feel like you know what Tua's ceiling and floor are going to be. And that probably living in that area probably does make it easier for you to tell about everybody else. I think Michael Penix's ceiling might be higher, but his floor could be considerably lower.

53:21Robert Mays: The spot on offense that would have me waking up in a cold sweat if I were this offensive staff, if I were the front office, is currently what's going on at right tackle. Juwan Taylor is not playing right now. He's banged up. They're cycling between a bunch of kind of back half of the roster guys. Is that, in your mind, the biggest question mark about the offensive personnel? And how do you think that ultimately gets sorted out? No question. I mean, I think that Juwan Taylor is a bit of a mystery. They signed him to a one-year deal in the offseason, but we've seen him play a ton of football with the Chiefs over the last few years.

53:53We have not seen him on the field here in the spring, or yet they say he's making progress. But we'll see. I think there's a very real chance that Atlanta's starting right tackle week one is in somebody else's training camp as we sit here right now.

54:08Robert Mays: Gap year, I think this is the right way to frame this. We are hitting a little bit of a pause on expectations and just where this team is at. I think right now what I'm paying attention to is how many sheer yards can Drake London and B 'Jane Robinson pile up within this offense? And will it make that will it make this group an exciting team to watch? if the answer to that is yes i feel like this is this season could just be a win for this team yeah i mean this is a league this could could this be the nfl's league pass team absolutely i mean if you're looking for something if if your team is not playing in that window and the falcons are on give it a watch because absolutely drake and bijon are worth the price of admission if you're competent around them and that's going to be the big question how competent are they around him and the answer to that remains to be seen josh kendall sincerely appreciate the time sir.

54:57Robert Mays: Always great to visit with you. We'll do it again very soon. Sounds good. Appreciate it. Joining us now from Ashburn, Virginia, it is our commander's writer here at the athletic Nikki Jabal. Nikki, how are you doing? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing well. It's, uh, it's nice to be back here. It is one of the swampier stops on every training camp tour, especially today where it's a little bit wet. I wanted to start kind of in a more existential place with this, right? I I think this team, more than any other potentially in the entire NFL over the last year, has been a reminder of how quickly things change in this league.

55:33Robert Mays: Heading into last year, we're coming off of a shocking NFC championship game performance. The vibes could not be better at this time last year in terms of where this team is, what they were trying to accomplish. Now, I sit here and we were talking about this a little bit during practice today. What are the Washington Commanders in 2026? Like, how would you answer that question where they are as a franchise? TBD. Is that an answer? Yeah, if we were talking about this, I feel like this is a team where they could go in either extreme and it would not surprise you. They could start out 0 and 5 looking at their schedule would not surprise me.

56:11They could end up 11 and 6 or whatever and would not surprise me. Um, because I think what we learned from 2024 is even when you think they don't have the roster to compete, that they go where Jaden goes. Um, and if he's playing on all cylinders and they have enough around them, they can find a way to make it work. Granted in 2024, they'd everything go in their favor. Um, so I'll be curious to see how they handle sort of the adverse moments, be it with their schedule or in game or whatever. Cause I, I think that will play a big part.

56:47Robert Mays: If you were, let's start with the optimistic case. If you were building the optimistic case for what this team would look like, maybe outside of the quarterback staying healthy and playing well, which obviously that's number one. What are the other factors, other elements that contribute to this team, maybe surprising people and getting back to close to a level that they were at in 2024? I'd say definitely the defensive line. They did not have really any pass rush last year. Injuries decimated the defense, decimated the receiving core, But the defensive line and the defense as a whole really has lagged for years.

57:20But if they can build up that really the front seven. And so far, I think there's been some signs of optimism within camp. It's still early. I'm still curious to see how they go against another team and practice. But I think that is maybe the second most important group. Maybe a 1-8 and 1-B with the O-line. But I think that's that's going to be probably the biggest deciding factor outside of Jaden.

57:46Robert Mays: I think they see that group as a strength and I can understand why. I mean, they spent a ton of money in free agency to upgrade it. You bring in two fairly big name pass rushers. Tim Settle is a nice like depth piece. He played well in Houston last year. And then the linebacking core. I mean, it's a group that just a little bit different in terms of how it looks than most other NFL teams. Like I could see this team playing a lot more base defense to a bigger variety of looks than other teams are comfortable doing because they have Leo Chanel. Now they have Frankie Louvoo. They draft Sonny Styles in the first round.

58:15Robert Mays: And so that front seven, I agree. Like if it all comes together, that has a chance to be the strength of this team. And defensively, it's going to have to be because there are a lot of questions on the back end. Absolutely. I mean, the secondary, they have some new pieces. They have more uncertainty than I guess optimism, at least for me at this point. A cornerback is, to me right now, one of the biggest needs, probably as big as receiver, probably as uncertain as center. And that's been an issue for them for a while. But that front seven, they have a chance to mitigate a lot of the issues that they experienced last year.

58:51And I like that they have guys that, and this was intentional, of course, with Durante Jones saying he wanted all guys that were versatile. And I feel like every defensive coordinator nowadays says that. We want to attack. We want to be versatile. but they actually did go get guys that can play multiple positions and they're using them and moving them around. So I think that, I think that can only help them. You know, I think everybody's looking to the Brian Flores defense is sort of like the barometer. Like, is it going to look similar to them? But to me, they have such different personnel that I don't know that that's really a good gauge, but I do think.

59:25And the guys that they have, the new guys that they brought in, I think will help them a lot more than what they had before.

59:32Robert Mays: What's the current situation at quarterback? Because Trey Emos still is not practicing. We're now almost 10 months removed from him having a broken leg. They signed to Meek Robertson in a free agency. To me, Meek Robertson's best work that he did in Detroit was when he was playing nickel. Now he can't. Like him and Mikey Sander still have been practicing on the outside because Trey Emos is not here. So how do you see that group just shaking out over the next month or so before we get to week one? Yeah, I think a lot will depend on Trey Amos. And I think it's starting to get to the point where it's almost concerning that Trey Amos hasn't practiced really at all this offseason.

1:00:03He suffered a fractured fibula in early November. So we're working on close to 10 months at this point. And you would think he'd be closer to full speed at this point. I'm no doctor. I don't want to assume anything. But, you know, you would like to see him back on the field sooner rather than later to begin that ramp up since he's had nothing. so without him they got like amik robinson mikey senior still two guys that seem better suited for the inside but are playing primarily outside and behind them they have a you know some depth but nobody yet outside of maybe douglas that that rises to that starter potential level and you know considering their injuries and the overall issues they've had on the back end it it's it's raised some red flags to the outside you know um but it's also a hard position to fill i mean you look at what was available in the draft you look at what was available in free agency and a lot of the corners were primarily slots um and this that's position theoretically you can build

1:01:02Robert Mays: out depth in the middle rounds and this team hasn't had middle round picks over the last couple years yes when you lose your second and fourth pick to a trade and when you spend a third A third and a fourth, I think, on Marshawn Lattimore, right? That could have been two dice rolls at cornerback. And so you feel how the last few drafts have gone as you look at this roster. You feel the attrition. You feel the lack of picks that they've been able to make. We're talking about that 2023 draft where you had six top 100 picks. Those guys, how many of them have become real contributors? And I think that's the problem.

1:01:34Robert Mays: When you look at the roster, the underlying talent and especially depth of some of those positions, you feel how thin it all really is. And so I think there, we talked about this earlier in the week on the show, just the stories teams have to tell themselves this year, the story of this team has to tell itself. I think in a lot of ways is if we incorporate new ideas on offense and defense, we can feel like a different team. And so beyond the personnel concerns and just the reality of the personnel on defense, bringing in Durante Jones, it seems like talking to people here and you know, how different what they're going to do is from what they did.

1:02:09Robert Mays: They're trying to go to a defensive system that just is a little bit harder to get a beat on, is a little bit more flexible, is a little bit more, creates a little bit more indecision for the offense. As you've talked to Dan Quinn and just the other people here about why they wanted to go this direction with Durante Jones, what have they said to you? A lot of it was that they want to become more versatile. I mean, they want to become, they want a multiple defense. They want more disguise. They want to be able to utilize the versatility. They do have in some of the players, you know, that that are still here from the past couple of years.

1:02:39And I mean, Mikey being one of them, Quan Martin being one of them, you know, and because of the injuries last year, a lot of guys were playing out of position. Like Frankie Louvre was sort of a shell of himself last year because he was, you know, asked to play more on the line. And that's not his skill set. He's not. That's not what he's built to do. And it showed. But I think another big thing for them, and this is across the board, not just defense, was was getting younger, getting faster. I mean, they had one of the oldest, if not the oldest roster in the league last year. And it showed at times.

1:03:09It was creaky. Yeah, you could feel it. I think back to that Green Bay game. You're like, wow, they're blowing by them, you know? So that was important. And you do feel that on the field now, especially in the middle of the field with those linebackers. You feel the speed that they were missing. But I think a lot of it is they want to have something that creates more of an attacking style. And I think they had the intention of creating that in the first two years with Quinn, but it never really panned out for various reasons and just cut bait and sort of start over.

1:03:43Robert Mays: And I think the same idea that if we incorporate some new ideas, a new way of doing this, we can feel a little bit different also applies to the offense. And that to me is one of the things I'm most curious about seeing because the world they lived in with Cliff and the world that I expect them to live in under David Blau are very, very different places. And so taking a quarterback like Jaden Daniels, who has lived in the shotgun in the NFL in particular, and has been the run game has been a huge part of what they've done with him specifically and sticking him under center a little bit more. To me, it's one of the biggest curiosities about any offense, any unit in the entire league.

1:04:18Robert Mays: What have been the early returns that you have seen so far, what you have heard so far? Yeah, I think a big impetus for doing this is Jaden, you know, finding more ways to help him protect himself. um you know they were he was exceptional in 2024 but he also had to play superman i mean he was you know key the pass game he was also their leading rusher that's not sustainable um and cliss offense worked very well that season but i i'm also of the mind that there's a reason so many people copy that west coast shanahan principled offense um because it works you build on your variations and they have to get the run game sustainable for longer and i think that's important for jayden i think it's important for the line um for the offense overall so finding ways to give him more help is imperative um have they fully achieved that yet i don't know but i i think that's sort of the the mindset between um and going to david blouse system i think there are two things that jumped out to me when i was talking to people this morning just about what the benefits of playing that way are.

1:05:22Robert Mays: From a defensive coach's perspective, when you're under center and you have this huge volume of run concepts that you can do, which is just more than you can do out of the gun, it's just more for the defense to account for. Both those runs and how many play actions you can build off of them. And so there's just, it creates indecision. It's just, there's a little bit more confusion. There's a little bit more hesitance from the other side of the ball. But what stuck out to me in talking to people on the offense of staff today is that they see it as a way to actually get more explosive. It's not just about creating more indecision and having more things that you can do and giving less information to the defense.

1:05:58Robert Mays: It's that if we're under center and we have this kind of downhill run game and we're pairing that with the speed we think that we have at receiver, we can be a more explosive offense. And so the way that I see it, those are kind of the two main benefits they're looking at and what a transition to this place can do for them. Right. No, absolutely. And I, I mean, I think they see it as we need the run game to set up the pass game, which obviously, um, and I like, one of the things I look at is Terry is sort of Terry McLaurin is sort of a gauge for where the offense stands, the state of the team, because when he's really happy, and this is not to say that Terry's a diva by any stretch, but when he's really happy, you know, things are sort of clicking and things are working when he looks frustrated.

1:06:38You know, there are things he wants to say publicly and will not out of professionalism. He looks really happy this offseason. And I think a big part of it is just knowing how the offense will work, knowing that he's moving around, knowing that they're finding new ways to, you know, help get him open, help get others open and just do more within their offense. I think, you know, a lot of times they got somewhat stagnant, maybe predictable in the old season, old system. So I think they're excited for that change.

1:07:11Robert Mays: It's just such an interesting mindset shift because when you're playing the way that they used to play, what you're trying to do is you're using speed as a way to keep a defense a little bit off balance and a little bit uncomfortable. Now you're using optionality to keep a defense off balance and a little bit uncomfortable. And you can do it both ways. We've seen it succeed both ways, but they're going from one end of the spectrum all the way to the other end of the spectrum. And I think that's really interesting. Beyond the ideas and just to kind of narrow down, like, what do we think we'll see?

1:07:39Robert Mays: It's under center. I think we'll see more zone based runs with like gap scheme stuff sprinkled in. And that that's going to be the foundation of the offense. But the ideas are one thing. The ideas that you're filtering, the personnel you're filtering those ideas through is another. And there's just a ton of questions about what that's going to look like. So as we're, let's just take them individually here. The running back room. The way the running back room is currently built, how do you think the workload shakes out? What do the roles look like? Because I think, again, there's just so much uncertainty about how that's all going to play out because they didn't have a big splashy addition.

1:08:14Robert Mays: It's a lot of modest moves that they've made in that spot specifically. I was skeptical of that room at first, but I've I've changed my tune. I actually really like that room now. What makes you say that? because I like the different skill sets that each one brings, because I think they're going to have more of a tandem. It's going to be, I think, more of like a split starting, you know, RB role, like more akin to what Ben Johnson has with his RBs. So I think we'll see plenty of Bill, Ja 'Kory Krosky-Meritt, explosive, shifty, like that quick first step. He's got like really good downhill speed.

1:08:50Then you throw him with Chad White. That's important. I'm very important.

1:08:52Robert Mays: In terms of them, how could we maybe see a little bit of a different version of Corey Krosky-Merrick this year in a more zone-based, one-cut, let's-get-where-we're-going sort of system? Is he a slightly different style of runner? And I think that's on the table. So I think that's worth considering and paying attention to based on how they're seeing it. Yes. And they asked him to change some things. He put on a good bit of weight, good bit of muscle, which he needed to anyway for the position, but to get stronger. and they really put pressure on him to improve the pass, proven in the pass game and blocking everything outside of carrying the ball.

1:09:27And he's taken steps, no doubt. But I think bringing in a guy like Rashad White, who in my mind is sort of underrated for what he does in the pass game as a running back. I mean, he's always been near the top as, you know, a pass catching back. So kind of pairing them, I think they complement each other really well. And I think the guy who has a chance to really be something it's still way too early and he's young is is ktron allen um who likes to go by fat man i can never bring myself so we got bill and fat man yeah nice like that yeah quality um but he's he's got the natural instincts of a back things you can't teach you know like when you're trying to convert a receiver to a back or vice versa right he's got those instincts and i think that can take you a long way he's just raw but i think he's the kind of player that you keep on the roster you grow and develop and he could be you know a nice guy and then if if they keep four backs at this point i would keep jeremy mcnichols he's that good third down he can throw him in get you a chunk play every now and then so i like the mix they have

1:10:26Robert Mays: there at receiver we obviously know what terry mclaurin is the other outside receiver spot and i outside is i got a little pushback today we're talking about this with the offensive staff they're going to play in so many condensed splits that that gets blended a little bit but the other wide receiver spot on this team. I mean, it's one of the bigger personnel questions in the league, period. Correct. Heading into the season. Yes. So what are we doing here? Is this team really going to roll into the year with some combination of Traylon Burks, Deami Brown, Luke McCaffrey, and Antonio Williams? Or do you think that there's still a move to be made before we get to week one?

1:11:00I think there's still a move to be made. It would not, I mean, of course there were the Brandon Iuke questions to start. And I think at the early part of the off season, that was a very real possibility. you know, if the 49ers had released him, if there hadn't been, you know, maybe everything that happened on social media, like in a more ideal scenario, I think that would have been a very real possibility, given his connection with Jaden and Adam Peters and whatnot. But at this point, I think probably the most likely scenario. And this is, again, depending on, you know, how things shake out, because I would think Diggs has some potential chances anyway.

1:11:40I had to go somewhere, but he would seem like the most likely scenario, somebody they would want to bring in coming off that thousand yard season in New England. I mean, not squeaky clean, but he's somebody who's proven that he even at this point in his career, he can step in and be a key contributor. And that's what they need. I mean, they've they've struggled to fill that so-called. And Dan Quinn hates when we use the number two term, but the number two term. Yeah, yeah, yes. They've struggled to feel that. I mean, Noah Brown was like the perfect guy for that, but he could not stay healthy at all.

1:12:14Robert Mays: And he's more of a number three in reality. He's like a dirty work number three guy that was miscast as a number two guy. He could draw PIs better than anybody I've ever seen. But like he's, they need that number two. Debo was never going to be the number two. He had to take on a bigger role, which did not suit him because of injuries. They've struggled to find that consistent guy and they need one. Terry has never played alongside one in his career here. and they need he needs it to help him they need it for the offense but they need another reliable pass catcher on this offense i think the number two receiver on this team right now is their tight end shig yeah it's a reality yeah and i think that if you look at the way that this team is built personnel wise you know there are a lot of teams want to play this way and it's not necessarily they don't get the benefits they think they do living in 12 personnel right because can you run the ball with that if that if your number two tight end is a guy built like chico conco who's 240 pounds.

1:13:09Robert Mays: Can you really run the ball the way that you want to against some of those nickel looks as the nickels are getting bigger? A lot of teams, it's an idea, but they can never kind of see it through. What I'm interested in is this team, 12 % probably is their best collection of players. And David Blau was in Detroit during Sam Laporta's rookie year. And Laporta is a little bit bigger than Okonkwo and he's become a better blocker, but especially as a rookie, they had to be really creative with the things they asked him to do. We're not going to put you in line and ask you to be handling defensive ends one-on-one.

1:13:41Robert Mays: You're going to be slicing across the formation. We're going to get you on the move. And I think a lot of those ideas and a way to credibly live in 12 personnel as your best personnel grouping could apply to this team. So I think that to me, as I'm thinking about the best version of the offense, because he's the second best receiving option and because you're coming from a place where a lot of the ideas you could deploy have worked and there's proof of concept that that to me feels like the version of this offense we'll see the most yes i absolutely agree and i do think they have some interesting options that tied in but i'm just not sure they'll pan out to the level that they need there um i mean ben senate he's sort of a guy they hoped would develop into someone could take on a bigger role i think part of it was the offense and sort of the play calling and no disrespect to cliff but it was more of didn't really kind of fit what they were doing at the time um to me the most athletic guy they have among their pass catchers probably outside of terry is colson yankoff undrafted um tight end who was a quarterback you know or a receiver three years ago or whatever um he's he's flashed camp but we've seen a lot of guys sort of be that camp star and never translate it to to real games but he has the potential is just again that that blocking piece is going to be so key because right now their best blocker across the board really is john bates but he's he's purely a specialist that's what he is yeah he is he's a blocking why tight yes the other blockers that's where we have a couple other personnel questions because last year was interesting like brandon coleman was somebody that i was excited about the flash a little bit as a rookie he gets overtaken by chris paul during the season last year but from what i heard this morning it sounds like that really is a battle with them at left guard like it's not just because chris paul won that job last year it's not that brandon coleman has been kind of left aside i think they're fighting for that spot and then center is also a question mark as things currently stand yeah yes because at center they they they released tyler beadish which i think was a surprise to some folks um but they turned to nick allegretti with sort of the thinking or at least from the outside the thinking was that they would bring in somebody else to compete they didn't really they drafted matt gulbin who is you know more of a raw rookie and they had jillian good jones on the roster but he hasn't he hasn't really played at all um he's gotten a lot of reps lately in camp because allegretti is dealing with a cap entry and especially for that position i would think you would really really want to be careful so it doesn't turn into anything more um but he's been out for most of camp and now you really start to wonder okay their depth is getting tested in day two of camp and weren't totally sold on the center situation then so like now what um and it's not like there's a you know at this point after a ton of centers got signed in free agency it's not like there's a lot of great ones just sitting there i think that's one where you kind of wait till the waiver period comes out and kind of see what you can get um but i would think they continue to kind of experiment with depth there um and pray that allegretti heals fast last thing i wanted to ask you just when you look think about just the urgency that this group probably has to be feeling right now do you how real do you think that is like if you're in dan quinn and adam peters's chairs do you feel like this kind of is like a make or break it type year after the way that last year went or is that too quick to say that i think it's more of a make or break year for quinn than it is for adam peters um i just get the sense that adam has maybe a slightly longer leash you know even though he's a first-time gm um i just think they want you know they did have that good season to start and i think that good season without it had they just had a mediocre season i i don't know that quinn would still be here i hate to say that because i think he's a very fine coach and he's loved by players out here but i think that's the reality of the nfl like you have two mediocre subpar seasons you're usually not back for a third but especially now yeah and that first one kind of bottom the season i think so it's a produce or they would likely move on i would think just given the trend in the nfl i mean i'm old enough to remember when coaches got two years and you're like wow that's all he got now it's barely a season before they move on so um yeah i i think it's it's very much that for him which makes this set up even more interesting to me because in your make or break year three, you're turning to two first year coordinators, which I respect from Quinn because, you know, it takes some gumption to do that.

1:18:23Um, and a lot of faith in these two to, to turn the keys over like that. Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a gamble, no doubt.

1:18:33Robert Mays: It's the gamble and we will, we will see very soon how it is going to work out. Nick Jabal, very good to see you. Thank you very much for the time. We'll talk to you very soon. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

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1:19:43See offer page for details. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Question for any pet owners. Of course, we all love our pets, but do you ever think about just how much joy and energy your pet brings to your household? Something that's been on my mind a lot recently because I spent a healthy chunk of the summer out of town away from our dog, Mozzie. and getting back to him really made me think about just how much he does for my quality of life, my mental health, and how I would do anything to keep his derpy little face bopping around next to me for as long as possible.

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1:22:16Robert Mays: Joining us now from Owings Mills, Maryland, it is our Ravens writer here at The Athletic Jeff's Reback. Jeff, how are you doing, man? Good, man. How are you? Always good to see you out here. It's great to see you. I had gotten so lucky, and then today was the hottest day I've had. Oh, yeah. I was sweating my ass off today, but not shocking here at this time. No, I would take this over what we had yesterday, which I was just a drowned rat. Like I had to hang out my clothes. I was just soaked and I did not bring a raincoat. So I'm not minding this as much, but it was a hot one. This team is in a fascinating position.

1:22:46Robert Mays: I kind of want to start there just from a big picture perspective. It's year one of a new staff, but there's still so much urgency. Like if you're a fan of this team, your expectations are still we should win the Super Bowl. And that just so rarely happens. If you look back at the last 10, 20 years, you can probably count on one hand when stuff like that has happened. Like when Jim Caldwell took over the Colts and Peyton Manning was there. It doesn't usually go down like this because the coaches on really good teams with Super Bowl aspirations stay the coaches of those teams. So that tension between it's year one of a new staff versus we think we can win the Super Bowl right now.

1:23:23Robert Mays: How have you seen this group and this building kind of try to sort through that this offseason? Yeah, that's a great point, Robert. And I think when you look, the good news for Jesse Minter is when he came in here, he wasn't presiding over a rebuilding project. He didn't really, you know, the culture of this organization is established above Jesse Minter. And it's, you know, Carball contributed to it, but it's Ozzy and it's Bishotti and it's Eric DaCosta. So he really didn't have to worry too much about establishing his culture. Obviously, he had things brought in. But the downside, the other side of that is there's no grace period.

1:23:57Yeah, he's exactly to pick things up and win right away. And I think that's interesting. I think it is so rare for these guys. I mean, they've had disappointing playoff losses. But how many have they just been like they were arguably the biggest disappointment in the NFL last year. I don't disagree. So I think these guys are so happy to move forward. Um, you know, not that Harbaugh was disliked or any of that. Obviously every coach in some building, there's some people that probably are, but I just think people are embracing the new aspect of it. And it's kind of helped them push beyond the new energy and a new schemes in certain areas and new way of doing things in other areas has sort of helped push them forward and create even more separation for last year.

1:24:48So I think that's kind of been the focus in a lot of ways. But there's no question that this is not a, okay, Jesse can get his feet wet this year. We're sort of retooling. And then a couple of years down the road, we'll be in better position to make a run at this. There's an expectation in this building that they're going to compete to win a Super Bowl this year. And when you're talking about a first-year head coach filled on a staff with a lot of Declan Doyle, first year play caller and Anthony Levine, first year special teams coordinator, assistant coaches throughout on both sides of the ball from college.

1:25:21I've never been here. It's an interesting mix. And, you know, there's no grace period. There's a expectation here that they're going to hit the ground running and have success in the playoffs.

1:25:30Robert Mays: What would you say is the biggest difference between what campus felt like or just the building has felt like with Jesse compared to what it felt like under John? I just I think The word I've kind of come to is there's a calmness about things. And usually when there's so much change, particularly in an organization that has not had a lot of change, it's kind of jarring. And there's kind of a business as usual feel that I've sensed in training camp. You know, Jesse hasn't completely changed everything. thing. He's brought in his style, but they're still doing a lot of things in kind of similar fashion, but there just seems to be less tension.

1:26:12There's a calmness that he sort of brought in. And last year, it just, there was not good vibes in here. It just wasn't. I mean, people can say what they want. There was clear the organization Lamar Jackson weren't on the same page at different points with how bad the defense was early last year. And there's just, you know, Some people love Zach Gore. I think the players generally liked him, didn't like he was getting all this criticism, but they're playing so poorly defensively. So there's just so much tension in so many areas last year. Everyone was really uptight, kind of on edge. I think Jesse Minter has sort of brought kind of a calmness and a connectivity to everybody.

1:26:51And I think people have really embraced that. It does feel like a fresh start for a lot of people. John Harbaugh has a lot of really good qualities, but he also has an edge to him. And that creates kind of an environment around the building where people are on edge. And you don't sense that as much.

1:27:07Robert Mays: Let's start with the defense, because I think to me, the biggest question is, can we rewind to 2023? Maybe not. Maybe that's off the table. But how much of elite defensive performance that we have seen from this organization and from guys that are still in that room, can we recapture under Jesse Mentor? So when you're trying to figure out whether that's possible and how that would be possible, what do you think are the elements of this defense that you think can play at that sort of level? And what are the elements of this defense or the bits of personnel that would give you reservations about them being able to get back to that level?

1:27:40I think the one, you know, like the two folks on this team were offensive line and pass rush. Right. And we saw them really pour their assets into both those things. I think the one area that really should play better that punched well below its weight last year was the secondary. They have too many assets in that secondary to play as poorly as they did. Now, we'll see if Marlon Humphrey can bounce back. He obviously had a very poor year last year, but I think Nate Wiggins is going to be much better. He's finally healthy at groin surgery. He's never really been healthy since he's been in the NFL.

1:28:15I expect Jalen Hawkins to settle things down, had a good year for the Patriots. and allow Hamilton to have more freedom and allow Malachi Starks to have more freedom. I think they'll communicate better there. Communication on the back end last year was bad poor at times. So I think that's the one area that should be much better. But obviously, you can only cover for so long anyway, and they're going to need to get something from Hendrickson and the pass rush. And I think we're all going to come back to kind of the biggest question defensively, and that's, is Matabike back? And if he is back and not just back, but playing to a pro bowl level, I think that's the biggest addition they could have made this offseason.

1:29:00A healthy matter BK, even beyond Trey Hendrickson or Vega, you want a on the offense like they so miss matter BK last year. They missed him against the run and they're putting out three nose tackles half the time. They just didn't have that skill set within the defense.

1:29:15Robert Mays: It just wasn't something like Travis Jones is their best interior pass rusher. He's a 330 pound man. Let him in sacks. I mean, you know, that's just they just weren't able to play Ravens defense last year. And the Matabike injury, they got off to a slow start. Obviously, they blew the blew the game in Buffalo and that kind of scar tissue for a while. But his injury in week two and not coming back, that's just they just were never able to recover from that. And the issues kind of compounded. But I think the secondary will be much better. I think some young guys there will really grow into it. And I think obviously they'll get a boost by, you know, Matt BK's ability, Hendrickson's ability, year two, Mike Green, their ability to get to the quarterback, create a little more problems.

1:29:55Robert Mays: Nate Wiggins is the guy that in talking to people today, like they truly think that there is some real unrealized potential with him. Like he can be one of the elite corners in the NFL period. And I think that when you look at what Jesse did over the last few years in L.A. versus what he can do here in L.A., those are that's a capable group of corners. Christian Fulton, Cam Hart, Tar Hew still. But they're guys that, let's say you want to hide them. That's a little bit harsh. You have to play a certain way in order to get the most out of them. That's the generous reading. Here, I think you can do a little bit more in terms of forcing the issue, playing a little bit more man coverage, being a little bit more aggressive than they were able to be in LA, in part because they think Nate is that sort of player.

1:30:35And I think, Robert, you touched on a good point because, again, generally supportive of the coaching staff zach or the fans that were getting on him a lot more than the players i don't think the players stopped playing for him but one of the big complaints is they weren't aggressive enough with the cornerbacks playing up in people's face getting their hands on people i think they felt particularly late in games that they were much too passive much too waiting for something bad to happen and it often did um and they want to be more aggressive and i I think they feel like Jesse Minter brings a little bit of that aggression that the best Ravens defenses have had in the past.

1:31:13I think they feel like he's bringing that back in a lot of ways. But emergence from Wiggins would certainly help that.

1:31:19Robert Mays: It's interesting because I think that some people would look at the amount of zone that Jesse played in L.A. And they'd be like, oh, is that aggressive? And I think two different things. One, I expect to see a little bit more man this year. And two, Mike Miggins, the secondary coach that they brought in from Notre Dame. he there in Notre Dame it's a lot of press man and I think in talking to some people on today and just somebody on the defensive staff about what he's bringing that's like the way they want to teach the dbs is that we're going to be really aggressive and even in some of the zone looks that they have Jesse's versions of them are more aggressive than even stuff that Mike McDonald would have done a couple years ago and so it might seem counterintuitive that this style of defense schematically can lead to more aggression but I don't think those two things are impossible to coexist.

1:32:02Robert Mays: I actually think they do play into one another. Yeah, absolutely. And look, you know, everything I remember when I was talking to one of Minter's players out in LA when they first got him. And one of the first things the guy said to me is I reached out, what are your thoughts? And Jesse said, they're going to be big players in the pass rush market. And I said, okay, well, what do you mean? He goes, watch them go get Crosby as we know that happened. And then I kind of kept in touch with him when the Crosby deal fell through. He's like, they'll sign Hendrickson. And sure enough, he just said that, you know, so much of what Jesse does is predicated about having those guys.

1:32:38And, um, I think they have those guys right now. I mean, we'll see there, you know, Hendrickson in continuing the theme kind of defensively, there's a lot of guys that need to bounce back. You know, you Marlon Humphrey, Roquan Smith, I mean, might've had one of the worst seasons of his career. Um, you know, he needs to bounce back. Trey Henderson just didn't play much football last year. So, uh, but you look at it, if things come together and there's far more good outcomes with, you know, the questionable guys, a couple of those guys get back, you know, every, every defense is going to have a couple of guys that just don't play to like the expectation.

1:33:13I think they can play the kind of style of defense that Jesse winter wants and, and the tools are in place to really, for them to have a bounce back year on that end.

1:33:21Robert Mays: Let's go back to Matt BK for a second. What is your sense of how that's going to play out and the timeline on which it's going to play out. Yeah. Now, I mean, look, most people in this building, if you would have asked, I would say even as early as like four months ago, they thought his career was over. So that he's even out there on the field doing stuff and preparing for his comeback is a huge boost to this entire organization. And just for people who are having the context is he is pure practicing, but it's all individual stuff He is not a part of like team drills or anything like that. No.

1:33:55And he returned. He was ready for the first day of practice. He got activated from the pup list. He was on the pup list, not because of a physical issue, but he just hadn't practiced in 10 months. So they need to get his conditioning up. They wanted to see what he can do. So he had the neck thing in week two last year, didn't play again. And for much of the season last year and this off and this off season, there's concern that he was done, but he got a surgery in April that was necessary for him to come back. I mean, all neck surgery sounds serious, but it did not sound like a major surgery. It just sounded like a necessary one.

1:34:28And he he's been begging to play. He wanted to play last year and he they he was cleared by independent doctors to play. The Ravens obviously cleared him and he's been out here since first day of practice. But it is a really slow ramp up. He mostly does conditioning. He'll do some of the kind of the individual stuff, the individual skill stuff early in practice. You know, he started rocking a neck old school neck roll this week. They're not looking for him to be ready for a preseason game. It's not about that. It's about having him ready to go when the games get important here. And he could be ready for week one, but they're taking it really slow with him.

1:35:08Robert Mays: And, you know, my understanding is about his comfort level. Exactly. It's like, when is he going to be comfortable? How is he going to be comfortable? It's as much. I mean, not as much. It's more mental than it is physical at this point. A hundred percent. What is he? How is he going to react to when he has that first collision, which are inevitable at the position he plays? Does he say, hey, like, does it scare? Is he scared? You know, he knows how serious the condition he had. So he has mental and physical hurdles still overcome. But everybody says he's in a good place. And we've seen him on the field more and more each day.

1:35:39Today, he was out here longer than he was yesterday. And that's sort of been the trend there. They're going slow with him mentally for mental and physical reasons. But they feel like he's on the right trajectory where he'll help them this year.

1:35:52Robert Mays: You look at the you mentioned this, the past rushers, that room with Tavius Robinson, Zion Young, Trey Hendrickson, Mike Green. That's a group of four that I think you can feel pretty good about. Right. Like I think Zion Young can give you run defense early on. He can give you physicality like him and Tavius, honestly, play a similar role. So you go too deep there. And then with more like speed based pass rush, you go too deep with Trey and Mike. So I think that group that's been a little thin in other years is more bolstered now than it has been. But if you're looking at areas in the defense where you don't feel that way, where you're like, I don't know how this is going to go right now.

1:36:23Robert Mays: What are the problem areas for you as you look at them right now? Yeah, it was interesting you brought up outside linebacker because I think that was, you know, people love Clowney here. Why weren't they in on him? Or, you know, there's a ton of these veteran passers. Van Noy probably would like to come back. And, you know, Von Miller's out there. I think Bosa may be retiring, but, you know, and they want these kids to play. Right. They want you can't just keep drafting these kids in the second, third round and not have them get off the field. You're going to have more David Jabba situations where you get nothing out of a day to pick.

1:36:56But I think the one area that you do not know about, and partly it's by circumstances, that defensive line, just because there's so much each guy has a question, right? All the interior guys specifically. They really don't have anybody. No, Matt Abike is the net question we discussed. Calais Campbell is the, you know, the horrible tragedy involving his mom, which has dominated his last. What did that happen around July 1st? I think somewhere. So he's been dealing with this for a month now. They're being cautious with him as they should. He hadn't had a chance to do much football stuff over the last month.

1:37:30So he's kind of been here. He just returned to the practice field this week. But it's again, it's a slow play. So he's going to be dealing with that all year. That's not going away, especially it's not just his mom. His brother was charged, you know, charged. So it's a whole family situation. Broderick Washington barely played last year, had Achilles and elbow issues, surgery. And Travis Jones. Travis Jones had pectoral surgery in the offseason. And John Jenkins had some sort of medical issue. We've never gotten what it is. I mean, he's a rotational nose tackle, but he was a key piece for them just to maintain last year.

1:38:05Robert Mays: If that was the only one, you could say he's a rotational nose tackle. But the fact that it's all four guys at this point, there's really you don't have any of the pieces you're going to rely on practicing right now. And he is people's a six round pick last year who's being counted on to do some interior pass. Russia was very good pass rusher in college. He's hurt now. So they have a guy named David Olajiga who's in here for the international pass. Like, you know, the system they have. He's getting starter. I saw. He was with the starters. I was like, who is that? Yeah. So then they look like C.J.

1:38:40Okoye, a guy who played a good bit last year. It looked like heat, which is a good sign that it wasn't more serious. So they're really low on numbers. These guys are probably playing too many reps at this stage of the year. So they need some of these guys back. So that would be my concern, just because there's a question about pretty much every guy they're going to be counting on. On the other side, who has flashed on the defense?

1:39:00Robert Mays: Who's been maybe more impressive than you might have expected them to be so far? You know, you brought them up earlier. and I've never seen Tavius Robinson play with the energy he's playing with and the physicality. He's always kind of been your typical Raven, like glass eating outside. That's what he is. Sets the edge, beats up on backs and tight ends, but they're moving them inside a lot and they're rushing them inside. And maybe part of that's out of necessity because they don't have many inside bodies, but he's had a really good start to the camp. And Robert, you've been around long enough.

1:39:32Every year the Ravens have one of these unheralded guys in their walk year suddenly pop and have like eight or nine sacks. And all of a sudden Darius Smith, Pernell McPhee, Paul Kruger back in the day, Arthur Jones. And he seems to be I think they'd be interested in resigning him at the right price. But he he seems to be the next guy that's going to pop. He's doing so much more. They just love him. But where he's showed me the most is, you know, he's going to be a good edge setter. but he's really been getting after the passer now. Who knows? Some of this is fool's gold until the pads come on.

1:40:08It's early. It's been for what, three or four days at this point. He looks really good so far. And he just, he strikes me as a guy that's going to make a huge jump in a contract year and price himself out of here. It happens every year. As old as time.

1:40:20Robert Mays: Exactly. Let's go to the other side of the ball and just your early impressions of what the Declan Doyle offense has looked like, what the kind of foundational principles of that, what that would look like and how it maybe feels different than what you saw under Todd Monkhan over the last few years. And we're seeing a lot of Lamar under center and you know, there's certain things, as you know, from going to these camps that we're not allowed to say and report because it's tactical, but coaches have talked about that. Declan's talked about that. They really want to challenge Lamar under center.

1:40:50Lamar hasn't been really under center consistently since he was in high school. So Lamar has talked about as an adjustment. He's always felt comfortable with it, but they're really pressing it hard in that. We're seeing that a lot.

1:41:03Robert Mays: It's not something where like they were near the bottom of the league. I think last year it was like a 40 ish percent or something like that. Maybe like 35 ish percent. So he's done it more than other like shot. He's done it more than Jaden Daniels did over the last few years. But the degree to which they'll do it feels like it's going to be ramped up. Yeah, I agree. And I think they're going to attack teams in a little in different ways. Man, we've seen a ton of tight ends on the field. And, you know, with Chicago last year, we're seeing that a lot. One of the things that we've seen more than ever is just the work on cadence.

1:41:36And that's a remark. I don't want to say a lot of criticism, but that's always been one of the questions. Why don't they use cadence more to their advantage? We've seen them spend a ton of time working on that stuff. I think he's really trying to develop Lamar's complete game. We know there's some things that Lamar does very well and will continue to do very well. I just think Declan's trying to find more ways to create big plays, create mismatches, and attack. I think this is going to be a team that runs the football a lot. I think we know that.

1:42:09Declan talks about explosive plays a lot, but he means running the ball and explosive runs. I think people equate that to huge chunk plays in the pass game, but I think they're going to run the ball a lot, and I think they're going to be relying on a lot of young players. You know, they they've resisted the temptation to go out and get a veteran wide receiver. And Jacoby Lane's been one of the stories of camp, the third round pick. Surratt from Indiana is another guy. They have two rookie tight ends that at least one of them is going to have to play. You got a starting rookie great guard. So they're going to be relying on a lot of young players this year.

1:42:43We're only seeing so much. They're keeping things as bland, as boring as possible. Two thousand fans out here and cameras running. but I just think that they're going to rely more on Lamar under center. We're going to see a lot of, we're going to see the big thing Jesse said, even before Declan was here, how do we make the game easier for Lamar? We need to create easier comp completions for Lamar, do things to get him in a rhythm early. So he doesn't have to play hero ball all the time, which we've seen in the past. And Lamar is defending the second play with Lamar is so dangerous. So you don't want to take that up away from him, but i think they need to create more have him playing on time a little more at times even when

1:43:23Robert Mays: he was at his best that 2023 season to me that he's 2024 season 2024 season to me is the best i've ever seen him play where he should i could have won mvp absolutely could he was a better player that year than when he won the mvp in 23 yeah and even in that season one of the most dangerous things about him is before he was even a runner a lot of the damage he was doing as a passer was deeper into place where he you know that little bounce in the pocket and then just waiting for somebody to come open and again making big plays with his arm deeper into the down i think the hope here is you're not asking him to be jared goff but ben johnson has talked about this idea of when you're playing quarterback in this system it's almost like being a navy seal going into like a tactical situation where it's like like just playing a little bit faster and a little bit more methodically when you're doing that kind of stuff i think that's what they're asking him to do on top of the pre-snap operation it's can we be a little bit more have a little bit more urgency early in the down and then can we take off yeah yeah no that's a great point one of the things that's been so noticeable and it's sort of been a breath of fresh air is and this anytime you talk about lamar you know it it gets polarizing but declan's coaching him hard and i'm not saying munkin didn't at all like todd's a car i think that's a great offensive coach um but there seems to be and look lamar has won an mvp in his first year with two coordinators now roman's first year and monk and so we'll see how this develops but you know like lamar the other day lamar at the stadium practice in college park lamar and doyle were just off to the side practicing handoffs and fakes have never seen that yeah and lamar was in the huddle when the second or third strings guys were on the field with a play sheet in his hand have never seen that so i just think his doyle's got his full attention here and i think one of the things with lamar they have him convinced that he needs to be more detail oriented and details are going to be the difference between this off and with this offense being able to execute in the clutch and in big games and there's just been a greater focus on detail and some of the smaller things they're not small but some of things people don't talk about as much like cadence like handoffs and fakes and how he executes all this so they're really working on improving lamar's game and consistency in those areas as well a few more things i wanted to hit just very quickly starting center is obviously a question right now danny pincher is getting to work with the first team and parkas ethan poach is still coming back from injury yeah how do you think that is going to sort itself out over the next month yeah i asked jesse minter today like at some point are we going to see posick working with the first team because he's not even the second team either he's mostly been third team but i think that's more of a reflection is his first day was pretty much the first day came these other guys have been here from the beginning um ultimately my understanding has been all along if he's healthy if he picks up the offense um he's the starting center but the more we go on and can't where we're not seeing him like he doesn't look hurt he's out there on the practice field every day but um i think they're pretty happy with what pinter's done i think they'd be quite fine starting him in week one or two if they have to if posic needs a little more time i think when they envision this offense though at its best it's with posic as a starting center ultimately i think they'll start working him in more and more and he's probably your week one starting center but i don't think it says we all took it as formality when they signed post he's the guy and we've been told by different people that's not the case we view this as a legitimate competition early returns on the guards in terms of like what do you want it has given them it kind of seems like the billing was correct yeah yeah i was you know i was sitting next to jonathan ogden the other day and we just what a flex that is yeah it has a way of making you feel a little inferior but he's just i only is just a no-nonsense for lack of better word he's just a no-nonsense ass kicker yeah he's just he's just there which this team needed exactly and it just not in the style of play i mean march yonder probably should go to the hall of fame but no probabilities here yes and so i'm not comparing them but he has that mentality like this is nothing to him he's out there getting to kick some you know what have fun at practice with the boys and there's no there's been no you know he makes mistakes he's a rookie but he learns from it quickly they don't really have to he's become a non-story and usually first round picks are a story, but he's looked so natural at it and there's so little, you don't see him messing up.

1:47:59So, uh, I think he's going to be, I think his floor is very high, but I think he's going to be a very good player from the jump. Um, Simpson's the other one, you know, like people are kind of torn on him cause he is penalty prone and he, he can't get beat. Um, but he's another guy that I think he's kind of, he's a, he defends teammates. He blocks through the whistle. He brings back a nastiness kind of that they've sort of lacked there with file Lele and Voorhees. And so I think they'll, I think, you know, look, they're going to be a downgrade at center. They're not going to get Pinter or Posick or not Tyler Linderbaum, but I think there'll be much improved at the other guard spots.

1:48:36And I think those two guards really fit on a theme that we've seen throughout the off season, which is Eric DaCosta bringing back some edge and bringing back some nastiness. zion young is a nasty you know like he's another one of these physical edge setters who gets in your face and trey hendrickson has an edge to him some people say he crosses it at time cross his line just got into it today exactly so i think they want to be tougher more physical nastier and a tougher team to play against and i think it's kind of exemplify what they did at

1:49:08Robert Mays: those guard spots i think we'll see a lot of 12 personnel with this team with mark andrews and derm smite derm smite probably took more snaps than any offensive player today i know in terms and that's been a trend yeah that's not surprising he comes from chicago he knows the system but i think we're gonna see this team play more 11 personnel than maybe we've seen any raven's team playing a long time because now we're post patrick ricard they had a very specific way that they played and like you alluded to jacoby lane seems to be that guy who's gonna be that third receiver like what has stood out to you about his camp that's gotten a lot of pub and what do you think that means for the roles a flowers is gonna play yeah we we're so used to the hype to water receiver.

1:49:43It's like, say Flowers has kind of put a stop to it, but even then there's talk, well, he's not your pro typical number one. He's five foot nine or whatever.

1:49:50Robert Mays: The 35 million would tell you differently. Exactly. But we're so used to seeing these wide receivers get hyped that they draft and then we don't see them for half the summer. They don't do anything. You'll flash and then you won't see them. The impressive thing about Lane to me is he's made a play pretty much every day of practice where at least one play, other practices, he's kind of been the star of practice. there's an energy about him there's a cockiness about him that i think they like um but he has the ability to go up and snatch a ball in the air and i think one of the things about the ravens receiving group in the past is they're too small not physical enough and too look nobody wants to cover his a flowers with space like he's just a tough cover so i'm not this isn't a shot at him but they've just been too easy to play against a lot of times and i think you know, they're only open when they're open.

1:50:41It helps to have a guy that's open when he's not. Yes. And I think, you know, like that's kind of was the reason they brought Hopkins with his ability to make circus catches, but lane, I think his ability to play above the rim and makes kind of plays. But what has surprised me most is this guy's been running with the first team and, and almost from the jump, Robert, usually a big Ravens thing in the past is we make our rookies earn their way up the depth chart. This, this guy's been running with the first team almost from the day one at camp when they're in that jumped out to me i was surprised to even see like the volume the frequency which was happening and again you're out here and it's been a constant so um i think he's gonna really bring some juice it's interesting to see so many like former nfl receivers like des bryant and michael thomas just they love the kid and then you know obviously kid was coached by todd heaps so the ravens feel like they have good intel on him and he's been a great story early and he's done more early as a drafted receiver than probably pretty much anybody I've seen in from Ravens camp and all these years I've been covering.

1:51:38Robert Mays: That's a good note on which dad Jeff Zarebek. Sincerely appreciate the time. Always good to spend it with you. We'll do it again very soon. Sounds good. Thanks, Robert. All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you so much to Michael Sean. Thank you to Josh. Thank you to Nikki. Thank you to Jeff Zarebek. We will have four more of these coming your guys way next week. I am on my way to the Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Buffalo stretch of things here on the training camp tour. If you have not been looking at or checking out the YouTube stuff that we have coming from the camp tour, I've got video notebooks from every single stop.

1:52:12Robert Mays: I've got a collection of player interviews, including with Kamari Lassiter, Deion Henley, Matthew Stafford. We've got one more coming with Drake London from Atlanta that should be running a little bit later this week. So if you are not subscribed to the Athletic Football Show YouTube channel, now is the time because we're doing a lot of stuff on there that we are not releasing on the pod feed for a bunch of different reasons. There's going to be a more robust YouTube presence in a lot of ways during this season. And so if you are not subscribed, now is the time to get on that. For now, that's all we got.

1:52:41Robert Mays: Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.

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