We're ready to get hurt again: The teams, players and ideas we just can't quit

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2:02Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I am Dave Hellman, and this show is right up my alley. A really fantastic format that we came up with. We're going to be talking about what we're ready to be hurt by. You know, the old Michael Scott quote from The Office. and there's no doubt about it. I am ready to be heard again. These are the teams, the players, the offenses, the defense that no matter what the concerns, they just play to our heartstrings. They get us excited. And even if it ages poorly, we are ready to go down that road one more time. We are ready to get our hearts broken by the guys we just can't let go of.

2:41So that is our theme for today. It's a really fun conversation with Derek Klassen. Let's get into it.

2:51All right, Derek, I love this concept for a show because, look, with the amount of podcasting that we do, with the amount of shows that go out over the airwaves, you develop tendencies, preferences, call them favorites if you want to. We all have our teams and our guys that we really love, the things we love about the game of football. And this just kind of gives us a chance to steer into the skid. because 99 % of the time you're trying to be objective and where your analyst had and think about it as clearly as possible. The purpose of this show is to kind of steer into the stuff that we like and say, yeah, I understand the flaws here, but I am ready to get hurt.

3:34I am ready to go down with this ship one more time if I have to. So keep that in mind as you're listening to the show. My approach to this was a little bit tongue in cheek. We'll see what Derek thinks. How you doing, man?

3:47Dave Helman: I'm doing really good. Yeah, this show is it's like the last chance to cope about last season before we go into this season where it's like, no, no, no. Some of the things I thought last year I wasn't wrong. The team was wrong or the players were wrong or it was just an unfortunate circumstance. And then I look at the roster, you know, maybe a couple of changes here and there. And I'm like, man, I kind of think they're going to be good again, despite them winning, I don't know, five games or something horrifically tragic happening to them in the postseason so um I'm definitely ready to do it again with these handful of teams and players I say it all the time I love this time of year because you can just kind of squint at stuff and say like oh yeah that guy can hold up at right tackle and my vision for this team is totally justified and then who knows by week six I'll just try to you know scratch all of that from the record go back and delete some podcasts later on but for the time being we're gonna have some fun with it we're ready to get hurt again so I'll throw it to you who you got to start this thing off I am ready to be hurt by the Baltimore Ravens in January football again it's and this is I don't even want to do the like the Ravens have some sort of issue in the playoffs or Lamar's not cut out for it or you know Mark Andrews this and that or John Harbaugh has issues in the I don't I don't think it's any of that.

5:08Dave Helman: The reason I'm ready to be hurt is that I look at all of the rosters in the NFL. I look at what I really think about some of the additions that all these teams made. I think about, you know, the quality of some of these quarterbacks. I think the Ravens are going to be the best team in football again. I feel pretty strong about that. Say it with your chest, buddy. I like this. I think they could win like 14 games again because offensively I look at them. They were the best offense in the league last year. Their quarterback could have won the MVP and they're returning like all of the same guys like the only thing that they've really lost is their left guard Patrick McCary who played admirably for them but like he was already a replacement level player and so I don't think losing him is going to hamstring this unit very much and then they bring in DeAndre Hopkins to be their third receiver and really like their fifth pass catcher so obviously I think some people have a bad taste in their mouth with Hopkins last year because of you know just being fed a bunch of targets with Tennessee early on And then obviously with the Chiefs, he was battling through some injuries and stuff, and he wasn't the player we wanted to.

6:09Dave Helman: But those teams needed him to be like a high volume player. Baltimore doesn't need him to be that. He can catch like three, four valuable passes a game in Baltimore, and that's all he has to do. So I just feel like this unit could be, again, top three, light the world on fire, 30 points a game. So that is all really good and well. And then the defense last year, I think people still kind of think of the early struggles that they had. But by the end of the year, when Hamilton moved back to safety, they had a case to be the best defense in the league. Like they were at least a top five unit. They were really, really good.

6:43Dave Helman: Roquan Smith started playing well again. The pass rush kicked it up a unit. And then I look at some of the additions they made a corner this year. And I'm like, I I kind of like some of the veteran additions they've made to shore some stuff up. So I just I feel like they're going to be the best team in football again. I feel like I'm going to say it at the end of every month by week, you know, week eight, week nine, week 10, going into the playoffs. I'm going to say they're the best team in football and then they're going to lose the divisional somehow. And it's just I'm I'm I'm ready to be hurt.

7:10All right, let's let's save the playoff talk for a second, because I love the point you're making. And I was I was a little down on the Ravens last year, not as like a fall out of the playoff type of team, but just not the best team in football. I thought maybe they would be wildcard. Obviously, they were better than that. And it was so admirable the way that they fixed their issues midseason. Like you said, you know, I was down on the reshuffling of the offensive line. And the crazy thing is early into the season, it felt a little justified. Like Roger Rosengarten struggled in his early appearances and the defense took half the season to really click.

7:50And Zach or oh, yeah, the brain drain is real. And maybe this team won't be quite as good. And like before the weather even got cold, they were just like, nope, we got it figured out. And they just zipped right back into form. So, yeah, go like building off of that while adding some key pieces. Like like you said, does DeAndre Hopkins need to be anything special to play a meaningful role on this team? Can you count on Jair Alexander to be fully healthy all the time? Not really. But even if he misses some time, they've got bodies behind him that can fill in. They're just they're so deep. They look so well rounded.

8:29I think I do really like that take that I will not be surprised if this team has home field advantage again.

8:35Dave Helman: And that's the thing is like I sometimes going into the offseason, you need a team to get more firepower to feel good about them. The Ravens have all the high end firepower. Lamar Jackson, Derek Henry is obviously really good. Mark Andrews is still one of the best tight ends in the league. Defensively, you have Roquan Smith, Kyle Hamilton, all that stuff. so to me it was just about can we raise the floor of this a little bit and just make sure we're we're preventing ourselves from the worst things happening and again adding bodies at corner I think Zach or going into year two is going to help them there I just it feels like this thing is even sturdier than it was last year which obviously again we saw some of the shakiness for the first two months I don't know man if they come out of the gates hot and they're like the best team in football for the first month I'm gonna I'm gonna be full steam ahead with how good this team is okay so let me ask you this what do you do with that I guess would be my question like what can the Ravens do anything to for lack of a better word impress you I mean they've won a ton of games they've done the one seed thing they Lamar has two MVP trophies he had a case to do it again last year Derrick Henry I mean he got overshadowed by Saquon at the end, but Derek Henry was on pace to do all that type of crap too.

9:53So the thing with the Ravens is yeah. What, what can they do to sell us other than get it done in that game? And you got to get there before we can even have that conversation. So I'm definitely not bored by the Ravens. I always want to watch them play. They are so fun, but they're just one of those teams where unfortunately I don't have a whole lot that I think I need to learn from them until we get to elimination play.

10:21Dave Helman: Yeah, I'm not bored of watching them because they have some of the coolest players in the league. Like what Lamar Jackson and Kyle Hamilton specifically can do is unique in this space. But I am bored of talking about them kind of because it's just, yeah, like what more am I going to learn? They're going to be even if they're not going to be the actual best team in football, chances are they'll at least be top five for a majority of the year. They'll win double digit games. They're going to be in the dance at the end. So it's just like there's not a whole lot we can learn until it's like can you actually win the divisional this time can you actually get to and maybe win the afc championship this time and like it's funny even some of the players i think it might have been marlon humphrey uh was talking at some point i think earlier this offseason offseason where he was like we just have to play better like there's nothing we need to do as a team like we are the right team it's just we just have to play better when it matters.

11:11Dave Helman: And that's it's like it's it seems like such a simple answer, but that really all it is for them. So let's pick at that scab a little bit. I went back and rewatched the divisional loss to the Bills. And it's it's I mean, obviously, it's painful how it was there for them, man. It was there for them in spite of Lamar having two turnovers in the first half, in spite of some mental miscues. Obviously, we can get into the Mark Andrews aspect of it and just the most regrettable fourth quarter of his career. But is it as simple as saying, hopefully next time we don't have to do this in the snow and we'll hold on to the ball a little bit better?

11:54Or is there more there? And is there a point where playoff failures of years past might compound upon themselves for this team? I hope not, but I think it's a question worth asking.

12:06Dave Helman: I think it kind of is. But I think what's funny with that, at least to me with Lamar Jackson specifically, is even though he did have some some funky turnovers early in that game, I do think Lamar Jackson has been better in the playoffs recently than he was compared to earlier in his career. So I really think it is just kind of like getting the breaks of like Mark Andrews catches that pass where I think I remember the year before Zay Flowers had like a bizarre play in the red zone that like kind of ruined their game against the Chiefs. Like, it's just it's these little moments right when you're trying to cross the goal line to win the game that they just kind of keep fumbling.

12:40Dave Helman: And so, again, I again, I think they are a good enough team. It's just a matter of when you're the best team in the league and you're playing against the third best team in the league in the Buffalo Bills, that the margins are incredibly slim and it can literally be just not catching a two point conversion. And that's it. Which that kind of feels like a theme for the Ravens, don't you think? Like, it's it's kind of a meme at this point. They're going to drop a completely inexplicable game like the Raiders game last year eliminated 98 percent of the survivor pool players in America because it was so confounding.

13:14And it's not always a Mark Andrews fumble or a drops. I mean, sometimes it's a drop on a key third down. They lose games where they have like six drops in an afternoon or they just can't hold on to the football. And ideally, you can keep that from happening in the playoffs. But the fact that it is such a theme and you just you can't completely count out the fact that it could happen. It's a little scary for me when you're talking about the playoffs where the margins are so slim.

13:41Dave Helman: Yeah, they have the inverse of the Chiefs thing where like the Chiefs can be kind of just like a boring whatever team. But then, you know, they're going to win the games that they need to and make the plays that they need to. And the Ravens are the opposite where they're just steamrolling all the people that matter right until you get to the divisional or something like that. I do think this is a classic case of just just give me enough bites at the apple and eventually it'll go my way. It's it's wild rewatching that game because I think simultaneously two things are true. Like, I believe simultaneously Lamar Jackson can't have those turnovers in a spot like this.

14:17Not when you're playing Josh Allen the way that he played last year. You put the ball on the ground in the second quarter. The interception just so clearly some kind of miscommunication just didn't even put it anywhere in the receiver's vicinity. You can't do that in the playoffs. But at the same time, Lamar balled that night like he I mean, they were zipping up and down the field. Every scramble was productive, you know, turning second and eight into third and three time and time again. Like he was really good. But at the same time, I look at that final box score and it's like, yeah, your quarterback can't do that.

14:53if you want to win playoff games.

14:55Dave Helman: I think those are just, yeah, his. The thing with Lamar Jackson that I've always said is he doesn't make that many mistakes, but the mistakes he do make, he does make are very, very loud sometimes. And that's kind of what you get with some of those fumbles. I'm going to stick in the same vein. I'll just I'll do the other team that has ghosts of January's past. Obviously, I'm talking about the Buffalo Bills. Little bit different, but same general idea. I am ready, Derek, to believe that this time the aging edge rusher that the Bills signed in free agency is going to finally deliver and finally make the big play that we've been waiting for.

15:36And obviously I'm talking about Joey Bosa, who is in Buffalo this year. He signed after after his long stint with the Chargers. And I just feel like we've been on this ride with the Bills for about five years now, like going all the way back to the covid season. Like Brandon being reunited with Mario Addison after his big season in Carolina, he was there as a 33 year old. Obviously, the Von Miller deal was a huge one and there was so much hype and expectation. The Bills brought in Leonard Floyd for a year after he helped them in the Super Bowl. And now we've got Joey Bosa. And I want to be clear.

16:13Those guys had some success, right? Like Von Miller was leading the team in sacks the first year he was there. Leonard Floyd had a 10 and a half sack season. It's not that those guys haven't done anything, but you know, as well as I do, those guys are getting signed to have a two and a half sack game in the playoffs or or sack Patrick Mahomes on fourth and five in the AFC championship game. And it just hasn't worked out that way. But I think it's way more fun to believe that Joey Bosa could be the guy that finally does that.

16:46Dave Helman: I like that this is more pointed than the I don't know the Ravens just need to figure it out like this is a very specific thing that the Bills have been trying to tap into for the entire time that they've realized that Josh Allen is a good enough quarterback to compete with a guy like Patrick Mahomes and so I just think it's fascinating that again like if Joey Bosa's healthy he could do the Leonard Floyd thing where it's like you you knock on the door of like 10 sacks and you have a really good season but again it's like when we get to January is he going to be able to make the play that he needs to on a fourth and five where Patrick Mahomes just I don't know maybe he barely brushes off like a half of a you know just a little bit of a tackle and he's able to evade Joey Bosa like that would be the most heartbreaking thing is if he gets close and doesn't do it but I don't know I Joey Bosa to me feels like a worse bet than like Von Miller but I do think he feels like a better bet than like what I thought we were going to get out of like Leonard Floyd at the time if he can stay healthy of course and I think that's the big challenge for the Bills they're in the same boat as the Ravens, obviously, where I'm like, OK, you're going to win 10 plus games.

17:49You're probably going to win your division. It's all about how you handle January. I hope they have a very specific plan for keeping Joey Bosa healthy, because like you can't put them on the shelf for four months, but you can seek to protect many other guys to say drafted. Maybe they can. You know what? I'm game to see them try, because the funny thing with the Bills, too, is they get beat to hell every year and every year in October or November, I'm like, how are they going to get to the end of the season with this defense? Like, how is it going to happen? And by hooker by crook, Sean McDermott does it.

18:25It's not always pretty, but he figures out a way to do it and they're just fine. So full Joey Bosa into that plan, whether it's like having him on a snap count, giving him, you know, extra precautions. Obviously this is a guy that I'm like, I'm giving him Wednesdays off in season anyway. Anything you can do to have him fresh? Because I went back and looked at this too, Derek. He played in the wild card loss to Houston for the Chargers last year. And obviously, he's dealt with injuries the last three years, really, that he was in L.A. He hasn't had a fully healthy season since 2019. But by the end of the year, he seemed healthier.

19:03He had 80 % of his pressures last year were from week eight or later. and against Houston. Granted, I know not a great Texans O-line, but he had five pressures. He had a sack. He was in on several hits of CJ Stroud. Like he looked very active. He looked like the guy that we remember from a few years ago. So maybe if we're keeping him healthy, not asking too much of him over the course of the season, maybe you could unlock that in a playoff environment.

19:30Dave Helman: I think especially too, if they kind of just let him be a pass rush player. And that's not even to say anything of what his run defense is. Like, I actually think at his best, Joey Bosa was one of the better run defending edges in the entire league. It's just that if he's a guy who's going to be struggling with health all the time, it's nice to not have him on the field for rundowns and kind of just give him those like nine pass rush snaps a game and then sprinkle in a little bit else outside of that. And I think why they're going to be able to get away with that is all of the other guys they have on the roster are very good run defenders like Michael Hoyt, who they signed is a really good run defender and like a kind of a uniquely flexible player in terms of a guy who can drop off the line of scrimmage if they need him to.

20:14Dave Helman: AJ Epinesa, a really good edge setting run defender. They just drafted Landon Jackson, who can kind of do some of that. So they've got a lot of these guys where if they don't really want to play Joey Bosa on first and second down a lot, they don't have to. And they can kind of just let him unleash on these 20 snaps a game where he's getting after the quarterback. designated pass rusher has kind of become like when I hear it I think of it in a bad way where like if you're a designated pass rusher it's because your team doesn't trust you to do all the other stuff right but Joey Bosa at this stage of his career is a fun like designated pass rusher parentheses compliment like I mean that in a good way if you're putting him on the field in third and long or second and long, whatever.

20:58And, and he only has to play. I don't know. I feel like if Joey Bosa played 30 or fewer snaps per game, you'd probably be happier in the long run. And he might be more productive. I really think he might be.

21:10Dave Helman: And like the bills will probably like the bills don't need Joey Bosa to be an 85 % snap player, to be a good to like, they'll win double digits, no matter what it's a matter of, again, like you said, like, can we get on the right pitch count can we get the absolute best out of him without uh breaking him before we need him ironically it was von miller that recovered lamar jackson's fumble in that divisional playoff game so it's not that those guys didn't do anything for the bills but i just have loftier daydreams like even even not even like von miller in the broncos run to super bowl 50. But even in 2021, as an older player, he had four sacks in the Rams run to the Super Bowl.

21:54He strip sacked Tom Brady in the divisional round of those playoffs. Like I want that. I want the the edge rusher who can take over the second half of a game. The Bills have been looking for it so hard. I'm not all the way convinced Joey Bosa is actually that guy, but it's more fun for me to believe that he is. So I'm choosing to believe it once again. I'm going to fall for Brandon and be in strategy one more time. All right. Should we do the joint one that we have? Or do you have another one you want to get to first?

22:25Dave Helman: No, we can do our shared one here. I think that's a good one to go with. Derek, you and I are both once again choosing to be hurt by the Jacksonville Jaguars. And I just want to connect. Can you tell me why? Can you tell me why we're doing this again? Oh, there's. I see I don't think there's a rational reason for it because I was going to say the quarterback because I think the quarterback is very good but I think it's hard to make like an objective case that Trevor Lawrence is is a quarterback like worth putting that much stock into but he's just again a guy where I just again this is the last time to cope before we go into the year I just feel like he has been consistently failed time and time again and I know that there are still parts of this roster that are a little bit imperfect like the offensive line I think even though they added some guys there are some questions I don't know if Deami Brown is really like a good enough receiver three they're throwing in Breton Strange to be the new starting tight end which which raises some questions but I just look at what Liam Cohen was able to do last year with the Bucs like getting Baker Mayfield and I know that that was a much better Bucs team but getting Baker Mayfield to throw 40 touchdowns is like kind of a stroke of genius and so if we're bringing that a little bit to Jacksonville, we have a player like Brian Thomas Jr.

23:44Dave Helman: We have Travis Hunter playing some offense. We potentially get a little bit more of a re-energized Trevor Lawrence. It's just hard for me not to feel like this offense could actually be pretty good. I think when I look at this and I agree with all of those things, I'm a Trevor truther. I can just I can imagine the people listening to this episode, like the Jose Mourinho meme of just like ripping off their headphones like we're doing Jags talk again yeah we are but when I look at this before the season a big part of it for me is just the division that they play in and I've I've fallen for it three years in a row but the AFC South is an entirely winnable division like Houston is a good team don't get me wrong but as far as prohibitive favorites they are more vulnerable than most of the favorites in most of the divisions.

24:37Obviously the Texans are breaking in a rookie quarterback. The Colts don't have a quarterback right now. It's, it's there for them. Like if you're looking for a division to have turnover, both of the Souths are the ones that make sense. Like the NFC South, the AFC South. And so I just look at it and I'm like, yeah, the Jags have a quarterback that I believe in. They've got intriguing talent at skill players. I'm not trying to sell anybody on the defense yet, but there's at least pieces there that I like. I think their edge rushers are really good. And I know if that's your starting point, then hopefully you can build a better defense than what we saw last year.

25:15And in the AFC South, that might be good enough, man. That might be good enough. They won it in 2022. And in 2023, they were on their way to winning it. And they just the bottom fell out and the bottom stayed falling out last year. But it's it is possible. Like if a division is capable of being one with a nine and eight record, it's probably this one. And that's sort of that's the groundwork for for this take for me.

25:44Dave Helman: Well, and I think the end of 2023 and then going into 2024 is important because it just felt like. The vibes were not good. And again, that's a very like kind of an abstract thing. And it's hard to get like a serious gauge on that. But it just it felt like things had gotten a little bit flat in Jacksonville. And there's not necessarily any proving that Liam Cohen is going to actually be able to turn that around immediately. But I just feel like the offense is going to be at least a little bit more reenergized and like give Trevor Lawrence more of a chance. because I think why you saw Trevor Lawrence last year in particular feel very volatile is his time to throw was one of the lowest in the league, but his average depth of target was short of Anthony Richardson, one of the highest in the league.

26:30Dave Helman: And so he was just a quarterback who was barely holding onto the ball, but he was chucking it down the field immediately, like throwing dig routes early, throwing comebacks pretty early. Maybe there were some deep stop routes that he's just throwing immediately, some goal balls he's just letting go. and I think when you're trying to throw that far down the field that quickly you're kind of lending yourself to the idea that you might just be wrong like you might have slightly misread a coverage and you're throwing it a little bit too early and so I think that's why things felt so volatile or you're just because you're not actually seeing the receiver break you're kind of throwing to the wrong point or you're disagreeing with where your receiver is at and stuff like that so I think that played a huge part of it and then the defense man I liked what Ryan Nielsen was in Atlanta and I thought he was going to be a good coordinator for them.

27:15Dave Helman: They were just like the unit overall just never felt like it was put together. And again, kind of going back to the Cohen thing, I don't know if Anthony Campanile is necessarily going to be like miles better than than Ryan Nielsen was. But I think he should be at least some degree better than Ryan Nielsen was. And I think if this unit goes from embarrassing to to competent, especially if Travis Hunter plays some corner, then I think that this could be again in a division that is extremely up for grabs that they could win 10 games and have enough. I think this is going, and I'm going to sound like a broken record here.

27:51This year for me feels different for Trevor Lawrence than most other years because it's been, it's been such a weird start to his career. And, and I don't mean, yeah, I don't, I don't mean different in the way that he plays, but I'm, I'm finally ready to lump some responsibility onto Trevor Lawrence, I guess is what I'm trying to say, because his rookie year with Urban Meyer is essentially a wash. They revamped that, so you're starting over from zero, essentially. And by the way, Trevor Lawrence, an exceptionally young player, like a young player when he came into the league, he was a third-year starter at the age of 24 but now you have another coaching change he's gotten paid by the way which is where all of this Trevor Lawrence angst comes from in the first place and as he gets ready to turn 26 which he's gonna do during the season I'm like okay we don't you don't have to be the prince who was promised from day one you don't even have to do it in in year three considering the turmoil around the Jags, but they took the time to reset this thing the way they were supposed to.

29:01They had to be coerced into doing it. Don't think I've forgotten about the old Trent Balky fiasco at the beginning of this year, but fine at the age of 26 with the contract taken care of, like I'm, I'm ready to see Trevor Lawrence elevate the team basically. Like I want to see that from Trevor Lawrence. I want to see him as more of a leader on the team and the reason why the Jags win more so than just a guy who got dropped into a not so great situation. And the Jags are not a perfect team. Obviously, I think the offensive line is going to be something that he has to deal with. But I think there's enough there that we can start to say we want some return on that investment.

29:46Or is that too harsh?

29:48Dave Helman: On one hand, I kind of agree. Like, I am getting a little bit antsy myself where it's like for as for as good as I still think he is, like it would be nice if there were some more objective measures to point to. But I also do think that there have been times where Trevor Lawrence is the reason that this team is winning games and has elevated them. Like to me, the end of the 2022 season, like he was playing exceptionally well. And I think especially even going into that the Chargers playoff game, the second half of it I think he played uh really really well some parts of 2023 I thought that roster was not very good and he was kind of the the thing that was allowing them to to play the way that they were playing and at least stay in a lot of those games and so to me I think over the last two years especially this roster especially last year has just not been very good and I think save for the I don't know the four superheroes at the top of the position there just aren't many guys that would have dragged this roster to 500 anyway and so like it's hard for me to be that harsh on him for it but again maybe I'm just so in the bag for how good I think that he is that that's I'm willing to give him that leeway but it's like I think that's the thing though Derek I and I think that is where the toxicity around Trevor Lawrence comes from is that he's not one of those guys he was billed as being capable of being that guy though he was billed as being that type of player I mean, he's 6 '6", 220.

31:11He's so athletic. He can do all of like he can he can escape the pocket. He can escape pressure. He can throw on a ton of different platforms like that's how he was built. And that's what's so tantalizing about it is we've all seen him do it at times. And I get it. Yes, the Jags roster has not been good, but I just want to see that more consistently. I want to recommend a TV show to people and have them turn it on and be like, no, this is actually good. You're right. Instead of they turn on the TV show that I like and they're like, this is what you spend all your time watching like that. I just I want to feel a little more justified in my recommendations.

31:49Dave Helman: I think the generational thing is like a issue in the way that we talk about generational prospects, because really, to me, like the appeal with Trevor Lawrence being a generational prospect is just like he can't be bad. There's just no way he's a bad player. And I think even if you're not that high on Trevor Lawrence, it's pretty clear that he's not a bad quarterback. He might not be like worthy of what we thought our number one overall pick would be. But he's very obviously a guy who belongs in this league. And that to me was the thing. Like there was just a no fail factor with him. I think it's hard to ever predict anyone being truly like one of the three or four best quarterbacks in the league.

32:26Dave Helman: And so to me, it's not a crime that he's like quarterback nine and isn't quite in that elite tier. But I don't know. Again, I just I understand that. I think that he's probably a little bit better than some people do. I think there's probably a larger conversation to be had there about what people call the draft industrial complex and how the importance and the hype around the draft doesn't do a lot of players any favors. But that's that's where we are right now. And I'll be fair to Trevor, too, and say he was beat to shit last year. Yeah. And he dealt with it for as long as he could. So I don't hold a lot of that against him, but I do think that there's enough of a framework of a roster here where at the very least, I just I think the Jags should be in the mix.

33:12And that's part of it as well, where I'm like, all right, if you're as good as I think you are and the rosters made a couple of steps and Liam Cohen did what he did for the Buccaneers last year. At the very least, I shouldn't be having to figure out why you're picking in the top five again. Like this should be a team that that we can take seriously deep into the season.

33:31Dave Helman: Yeah. You know, I don't even need them to win 12 games and win their division. I just need them to not do that shit again where they're like, that's that's what we're shooting for. that's and that's part of it too is like it's not just that the jags have disappointed but it's been in catastrophic ways like they were the one seed in the afc halfway through 2023 and just fell off a cliff and then last year was just an unmitigated disaster like i just don't want to just don't embarrass me jags i'm ready to be hurt again but just don't embarrass me all right we're going to take a quick break we got more to get to right after this this episode is brought to you by bill the intelligent finance platform that helps businesses and accounting firms scale with proven results.

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38:24All right, Derek, who else are you ready to be hurt by in this 2025 NFL season?

38:30Dave Helman: Speaking of quarterbacks build as generational prospects, I'm so bought in on Caleb Williams being really, really good again. And I know that we did this all last offseason. We're just talking about all the toxic quarterbacks today. Let's do it. We really are. And like last offseason, there was so much of like, this is one of the best situations that a rookie could get dropped into. And it looked really nice on paper because of some of the pass catchers. And then none of the pass catchers looked like their best selves. They were all misused. The play calling was not very good for a lot of the season.

39:01Dave Helman: The offensive line did not play very well. And so what looked like a really good situation, rookie situation, ended up being, you know, not like Urban Meyer Jags level disaster. But it was not a situation conducive to rookie success, even for a player expected to be as good as Caleb Williams. And I think all of that feeling was really exacerbated by like the first eight or so weeks of the season really did not look good. Like Caleb Williams looked pretty jittery in the pocket. He was throwing a lot of go balls kind of for no reason, like just chucking him up there. Just like, I don't know what to do on this play.

39:35Dave Helman: I'm just going to throw it. And I think because of that and he had some real stinkers, like the first half of the Washington game was horrendous and he was really good in the second half. But the first half was pretty hard to forget. And so I think some of those moments, the end of the Lions game, like there were just so many of these clear, oh, my God, disaster moments that I think it's easy for people to think of Caleb Williams this season as having not been very good. But you watch it, man. His pocket management got really good at the end. He obviously has one of the most talented arms in the league, both in the pocket and then outside of the pocket.

40:09Dave Helman: I think outside of the pocket, he has one of the most just malleable arms that you'll ever see, like some of the arm angles that he can get to. You saw some more of the creativity later in the year that you didn't see as much early in the year. He became more comfortable as a scrambler. Like he just he started to play NFL quarterback by the end. And I just have to imagine that if you paste what some of that projection and put that on top of like Ben Johnson now being there as a play caller, offensive line, hopefully being better and healthier. Why would this like I just feel like I'm willing to bet on him as a top 10 quarterback again.

40:42Dave Helman: I really think he can do it. top 10 in year two might be it's it's lofty but like i just i he's that good we're here to daydream buddy you exactly you dream as big as you want to i for me top top 10 is lofty but i just i i'm with you that i i believe that last year was an aberration and and you're so right and because the Bears are the perpetual offseason champions and because of the size of the market and the size of the fan base, it's hard to have this conversation in good faith because there are delusional Bears fans propping things too far in one way. And then there are people that hate the Bears pushing things back down.

41:29So by midway through last season, the Bears were already a meme. And I feel like it bottomed out in that loss to New England, which is like as bad as as bad as it gets in terms of an offensive performance in the NFL. But yeah, if you were willing to stick with it beyond that, and you probably had to be a Bears fan at that point to keep watching the Bears, there was a lot to like. I know Thanksgiving was a disaster. And that's the other thing, too. They played on Thanksgiving and everybody saw them do the dumbest thing imaginable on national TV when nobody else had another game to watch. And so that's the stuff that sticks with you.

42:07And you know, it's crazy. He was good in that game until, until the two minutes coaching staff just forgot what a running clock was. It's mind numbing, but I mean the, the Vikings game right after, uh, right around that time in, in both lions games, if I remember correctly. Like there was, there was a lot of stuff to like, and it's clear that he's got more work to do when it comes to holding onto the ball, trusting what he's seeing a little bit more and, and all that type of stuff. But I just have a hard time believing that some of the stuff he was doing in the last two months of the season can't become more consistent with, with better coaching.

42:48And I think we would all agree that even if he's not the franchise changer that he's being billed as, Like, I think Ben Johnson is going to give him a better floor than Shane Waldron and Matt Eberflus until they got the rug pulled out from underneath them halfway through the season.

43:06Dave Helman: Yeah, exactly. Like I, you know, I don't expect the Lions or the Bears offense to immediately be as explosive and dynamic and as put together as the Lions offenses were over the past few years because they had years to build that. Right. But I do think, again, one of the biggest issues we saw with the Bears offense last year is they didn't know what to do with any of their receivers. Like their most vertical receiver was Keenan Allen for some reason. Like they very clearly didn't understand how to put that room together. If there's one thing I do think Ben Johnson will be able to do pretty immediately is just put guys in the right roles.

43:38Dave Helman: And that's not to say that Colston Loveland is going to have a 900 yard year as a rookie. That's not to say that like Luther Burton is going to be the best gadget player in the league or that DJ Moore is going to have 1400 yards. It's just that when you watch it, you're going to be like, yeah, that's probably how I would conceive of using that guy instead of Keenan Allen being your seam stretcher. You know what I mean? So I just I feel like that is going to give a little bit more credence to maybe Caleb Williams just feeling more confident in the offense a little bit. If we can assume for a second that the additions on the interior mostly work out, how much do you think that helps a guy of Caleb Williams skill set?

44:17Dave Helman: I think a lot. And I think it's for a couple of reasons. One, I think he's a great player. I think he's probably always going to struggle a little bit seeing and triggering over the middle of the field just because he is on the shorter end. You know, he's a guy who's like six foot flat. And I think those guys typically can struggle with that a little bit. And so but I do think having now a short up interior, hopefully will help him have a little bit more space there and help him operate in that way. I also think assuming that makes the run game better, we're just not going to be in as many third and nines as we were in last year.

44:51Dave Helman: Like that was part of the issue last year, too, is that Caleb Williams was thrown into this situation where as a rookie, he was asked to drop back in pretty dire circumstances a lot behind an offensive line that I don't think had very good rules. If we can just cut off four of those obvious, you know, past situations for him and just let the offense be a little bit more balanced. I think that is going to go a long way for helping him feel, again, a little bit less herky jerky in the pocket at times. I'm really bummed that Robert's not here because I could imagine him like breaking out into hives.

45:25But in light of what we just talked about, it feels worth pointing out. You do you remember who the Bears open against and when it is? Because it's very funny. I don't know. Do they open against the Lions? They open against the Vikings, Derek, and it's on Monday Night Football. So our first look at all of this is going to be a standalone game with no distractions. So for better or for worse, everybody's going to get a really close look at this. And that makes me a little nervous because exactly like I said, the Bears, the Bears failures always happen in these settings where everyone's watching like they never get away with it at noon.

46:07You know, so it's a little funny to me that the debut of this era with Ben Johnson is going to be on Monday Night Football.

46:17Dave Helman: This also not only do I have this take writing on it, but one of my like sneaky takes this year is I don't think the lines or I think the Vikings secondary is might kill them. But if on Monday Night Football, they just like shut out the Bears immediately, that's going to look really dumb. I believe Robert's going to that game as well. So can can you imagine if Caleb Williams I don't know what would be what would be the bigger flashpoint in the NFL community? Like what would be bigger if Caleb Williams drops three 40 on the Vikings at Soldier Field or if the Bears struggle and look terrible on Monday Night Football?

46:54I think it would be bigger in my if it flops like I think it would be a bigger story and it would be more painful for the Bears than anything that could happen in a win.

47:04Dave Helman: I think absolutely, because that runs counter to like what we've been told about Caleb Williams for so long is that if this flops and they look terrible, it's going to be more of, oh, Caleb Williams was never that good of a prospect and all this stuff. But if he's good, I think people will certainly be excited. But it will be like, oh, finally, Caleb Williams is playing as well as we all expected him to be. Like, I think it'll be a little bit more relief than like, you know, an exclamation point, if that makes sense. Yeah, if he plays well, it will be relief unless it's insane. Like if he if he throws for 300 and like three touchdowns with no turnovers, then we'll be in Chicago and we'll see them putting up the barricades for the parade.

47:45Like it'll be it'll be like that. All right, I'm going to stay in the NFC North for my take. And I'm ready to be heard again. But I'm ready to believe that someone is going to step up and finally be like the star and the alpha in the Packers wide receiver room. And it's so funny. It's worth laughing at. It's just funny. Do you have a choice? Do you think, do you have a good idea who it's going to be? I don't feel like I need to. I don't need to. It's not fair to ask me to do that. I don't care if it's Matthew Golden. I don't care if it's Jaden Reed, Dontavia Wicks, Romeo Dobbs. I wouldn't bet on Christian Watson just because of the injury, unfortunately.

48:27But as long as one of those guys does it, it does not matter to me. It's just funny to me how far we've come in a year. When you consider at this time last year, it was the Packers just destroyed the Cowboys in the playoffs and had all this success on their playoff run. And Matt LaFleur, it was August 13th of last year when Matt LaFleur was like the phrase number one receiver makes me want to vomit. Like, I don't even want to talk about that. And now we're having watched the Packers drop 28 balls last year. We're like, can somebody please step up and be the wide receiver one in this room? And with the amount of talent that they have now put together, first round pick, spin at receiver for the first time in 23 years, whatever it was, somebody's somebody's got to break through.

49:18Right. Even if it's just a numbers game, like even if somebody breaks through because of the attention being paid elsewhere, I don't care why. I just need somebody to become a more consistent and reliable piece of this offense.

49:31Dave Helman: yeah last year was funny because there was so much of like is Dontavian Wicks going to finally be a more consistent player are they going to expand Jaden Reed's role is Romeo Doves really going to become more than kind of the as Matt Harmon says the sacrificial ex is Christian Watson going to be able to stay healthy and really be like a number one receiver and then really what ended up happening is their best pass catcher became Tucker Kraft and I think it being a tight end was a little bit less sexy especially in an offense that doesn't necessarily throw at their tight end like a ton the way that the Cardinals might or something like that.

50:03Dave Helman: So I just always thought that was funny. But I really do want one of these receivers to break out because for as much as I think Matt LaFleur is kind of right that you can have a really good offense without having a true number one. And he's literal proof of that. Like he's he's done that ever since Devante Adams left. He's been able to do that and cobble it together with a lot of you can do it, but it's not fun to live that way all the time, at least like when it works. It's really fun. But But on the days where it's a little bit more of a struggle, you're like, God, I wish I just had a guy whose number I could call time after time.

50:35It's cool in October.

50:37Dave Helman: When you get to January, you kind of want a breaking case of emergency kind of receiver. And at this point, I don't know if it's going to be any of the other guys outside of Matthew Golden. I think given that they spent a first round pick on him, they really want it to be him. And there's some reason to believe that it could be right. Like, Dave, I don't know what you thought of him as a prospect, but I think he's really explosive. I liked what he was as a route runner. I don't know if he's ever going to be like the best yak threat in the league, but I do think he has enough of the turn and burn to do it.

51:05Dave Helman: So like he could be a thousand yard receiver as a rookie and it wouldn't be that insane to me. I completely buy the narrative. I watch a ton of college football, not just for work, but just because it's my hobby. And I buy the idea that Texas shifted their priorities over the course of the season. Like Isaiah Bond was there. He transferred in from Alabama. That was a guy that they really wanted to make a focal point of the offense. And by the time the stakes were getting higher and they're like, all right, we're going to be in the playoff. Like we got to stop messing around. Like there was a very noticeable shift where Matthew Golden became the guy they were trying to get the ball to.

51:43So I believe that he could be a great receiver. I believe that he could be a thousand plus yard receiver. I'm always hesitant to put that on a guy as a rookie, especially if it's not like a top 10 pick like Marvin Harrison and Malik neighbors. I'm like, yeah, OK, of course. But even even last year, Brian Thomas Jr. was not a guy that I expected to do that. Like, I don't think that is really fair to do to a guy who's drafted in the teens or the 20s, as was the case with Matthew Golden. But if he does, it's I mean, that's a good that's a great thing to have happen. And I think that probably accelerates your plan.

52:21If by week three, you're like, oh, shit, this guy's amazing. Whereas if he's just merely pretty good for a rookie, I don't think that ruins anything for the Packers by any means.

52:32Dave Helman: No, they'll still be an 11-12 win team if that if that's all that he is. If he's like a 700 yard receiving guy and he takes the top off kind of in a way that that other guys in the in the room weren't able to do. I think, again, there'll be a really good team. is just to me for me to feel like a little bit better about them in January. I would probably want Golden to be closer to that thousand yard level player, which like, again, I do think he can do. I think he's immediately the most explosive player in that receiving room. And then I know that they've counted on Romeo Dubs for a long time to be their kind of contested catch red zone sort of player.

53:06Dave Helman: And Matthew Golden isn't the biggest guy, but he gets a lot out of his frame. He actually does do a really good job at going up and getting the ball in the air and making sure that he can come down with it. So I just it feels like there's enough breaking case of emergency and we can build the offense around this guy's skill set that, again, maybe I'm projecting too much and I just want the Packers to be good. But like it's there if if he can really hit his stride. So I know I copped out five minutes ago and told you I didn't care who did it. And that's true. If it's if it's Matthew Golden, that's really fun.

53:38But if you're making me guess right now, I think I would actually go with Jaden Reed. And even, even with his struggles last year, I just think, I think he is such a smooth, fun player to watch, like his route running, the stuff you can do with him as a runner, you know, they love to swing him out into the flat on those like little orbit motions. They love to give him end arounds and things like that. So I think that gives him a little bit higher potential just because there's more ways that they might get him the ball. And his only problem last year was drops, which yes, that is a big problem because that is your job as a receiver.

54:17But as a rookie, he had three drops on 94 targets. So like he got targeted 20 more times as a rookie and had way fewer drops. So I have an easier time believing that maybe last year was just a bad year as opposed to like this guy just can't catch the ball I think drops for the most part like can just be you can just have a bad year sometimes

54:40Dave Helman: and like the way some of that is tracked is not it's like it can be very much like is that really a drop or was like he kind of got his hands on it and the DB punched it out you know what I mean like at that point that's not as much a drop to me that's like the other guy is also doing his job he gets paid too and so I think that that can certainly be part of it the only reason I wouldn't pick Reed is that when they put only two receivers on the field they don't like him out there which I do think that is a talking point at Packers training camp right now for sure and I do think Golden if they've only got two guys out there I would I would bet pretty confidently that Golden's going to be one of them but I do think you make a good point like when Reed is out there he's their most versatile player it's a matter of how much do they want him out there that I think kind of changes that that's a really good point and to your point tucker craft being what he is i mean like and then matthew and and matt lafleur loving to run the ball i know like we want the passing game to be a little bit more explosive but the packers are still going to want to run the ball and so i'm not going to be surprised if this is a team that uses 12 personnel a lot so maybe for my prediction to come true jayden reed get get on the field and 12 dude come on we can do this All right, we're going to take one more break and we got a few more things to throw at you before we finish up.

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58:32All right, Derek, you got any more for me? I have one that I really did not expect myself to come to,

58:41Dave Helman: but the more I looked at the roster for some reason, I kind of think it's good. I'm ready to be hurt by the New England Patriots defense again specifically the defense I so last year obviously two years ago they were one of the best in the league right and they still had Bill Belichick and going into 2024 I was like oh they can still be really good again you know drawed mail is going to be fine they still have a number of these good players they'll be okay that is not how that worked out they were missing a number of their best players Christian Barmore didn't really play for a lot of the season Matthew Judon had just left Juwan Bentley their best linebacker at the time ended up missing a majority of the season like they just kind of got decimated on top of the Bill Belichick not not being their thing they just went from one of the best defenses in the league to one of the worst I look at the roster now though and I'm like man I kind of like me a key on white the Milton Williams signing makes them a little bit more explosive up front than I think that they were last year if Christian Barmore this year is a little bit more healthy and not having to deal with as many of the complications that he did last year with some of his health stuff that could be good they signed robert spillane to play linebacker who to me is a significantly better third you know three down player than anybody they had even with bentley like i love juan bentley but he it's not the best coverage player and i do think spillane could be a little bit better there and then they signed my favorite one of my favorite corners in the league carlton davis to be across from christian gonzalez so it's just i still get a little bit you know itchy when i look at the pass rushing room i don't know if it's my favorite but everything else about this team makes me like if they were the ninth best defense in the league I don't think I would be that surprised and I'm kind of ready to be hurt by that I love Robert Spillane man now that I'm so sick I heard you say that and now I'm like oh I should have used him as a DNA changer on the show that we did earlier this week he's just he's a super fun player and he's a hammerhead dude like he's just he wants to hit somebody and he's coverage is definitely not what he's there for but he is useful.

1:00:42Like he's going to do his best to get in the way. He's just a high effort player. So if you're at least giving me effort and not being a total liability, then I like that's great. And on top of that, yeah, he's just trying to crush as many people as he possibly can.

1:00:58Dave Helman: Yeah, I just I don't know. It feels like if he can piece together the linebacker room a little bit better, they can play a ton of man coverage with Carlton Davis and Christian Gonzalez. is I expect Kyle Duggar to have a good season again. Like I just. There are a couple of holes on the roster again, the pass rushing room. I don't love where Harold Landry is potentially their best edge rusher. I really don't love that, but I don't know, man. There's just I feel like the best players are good enough between guys like Keon White, the corners, maybe Robert Spillane, hopefully Christian Barmore that that on top of better vibes with, you know, a new coaching staff with Mike Vrabel and stuff.

1:01:34Dave Helman: I just it feels like they can go from disaster mode last year to at least above average. But I truly do think that like top 10 could be on the table. I think we talked about this when we all got together for our game planning meetings a couple weeks ago. And I'd be curious for your take on it is what Mike Vrabel brings to a team from a from a X's and O's standpoint. Because I think I think most people like Mike Vrabel, or at least I do. I won't speak for anybody else. I like Mike Vrabel as just the dude with edge and attitude who's going to demand a certain standard. He's got that Belichickian way for finding small ways to win on the margins.

1:02:16And his teams play with attitude. Like even his bad Titans teams were a pain in the ass to play way more often than not. I don't know about what he brings you on game day, though. You know, like he doesn't call his defense. He lets his defensive coordinator do that. that'll be Terrell Williams in New England who came over from Detroit. And I don't mean to say that that's a bad thing. I'm just curious. Does does Vrabel have an impact bigger than just attitude and vibes? Do you think?

1:02:47Dave Helman: I don't really think so. Like schematically, I don't think he's been that like even some of the times where he was calling the plays in Houston. I was not super impressed by it. And now they're bringing in Terrell Williams to call the plays where I don't think he has like a super huge Rolodex of of, you know, great play calling on his docket either. But. I think some of the other things that Mike Vrabel brings, like. It's just practical football stuff like he's really good in terms of managing the clock and managing timeouts. I think that that is super useful. I think he's always gotten guys to play really hard, which I think is important generally, especially with how bad the vibes were in New England last year, but especially on defense, right?

1:03:26Dave Helman: Like you need guys to play as a unit feel like they're playing confident together and hitting together and i just feel like vrabel raises the floor with that stuff at a level that a lot of other teams um or a lot of other coaches kind of struggle to do and so he might not be the this might not be the sexiest x's and o's defense you're ever going to see but if these guys just play as a unit again and a couple of those spots are improved personnel wise with like robert spleen and carlton davis and stuff like that it just feels like you could pretty quickly turn this ship around this is purely anecdotal but Vrabel's teams in Tennessee watching the Titans even like I said even when they're not good you're not jealous of the Titans from a standpoint of how good they actually are but watching the Titans makes you jealous where it's like yeah you're so right like their their timeout usage is always perfect like their situational football is always good they they play to the whistle they're kind of nasty and like you watch the Titans and you're like I wish my favorite team was more like this and I think that's why I've always admired Vrabel regardless of whatever kind of edge he gives you from a scheme standpoint yeah exactly like it's just at the end of the day being a football coach is getting 53 guys to do the same thing and I do think that Mike Vrabel has proven that he can do that really really well I appreciate looking at the Patriots defense because I just there's so much going on with their offense that we don't know the answer to that.

1:04:53I think that's a unit that probably gets overlooked and they did do a ton of fun stuff. I mean, you listed off all of the free agents. If these guys play cohesively and play well, this guy, this could be a very reminiscent Patriots unit. Like this could, I think this could be a really, really good unit if they catch the right breaks. I think you're, I'm going to, I'm going to take this take with you. I'm going to hop on the bandwagon now that I've heard it. All right. I got one more quick one. Do you have any others before we do that?

1:05:24Dave Helman: I have one more quick one, too, so you can do your quick one and I'll throw mine on at the end. I just think this is perfectly timed because the Hall of Fame game, we're recording this on Thursday afternoon. The Hall of Fame game is tonight. So first taste of preseason football. The first weekend of preseason is a little bit further away. So we got a little more time to wait for that, but I'm ready to be hurt again by preseason football. Cause every year we do this every year we do this where it's an eight month wait for football. All these rookies get drafted and we spend all summer remembering where they are and what they might look like.

1:06:01And we're so fricking pumped to finally see some football. And then once you've watched like three, three preseason games, you're like, Oh yeah, all these offensive lines suck. Nobody's really calling anything interesting because they can't because they don't have the personnel to call what they would during the season. A lot of these players aren't going to be on the final roster. Even a lot of promising rookies don't get as much burn in the preseason as they might have back in the day. And so after like a weekend of preseason football, you're like, OK, this whetted my appetite, but I don't really want to watch any more of it.

1:06:36But right now on July 31st, I don't give a shit about any of that. Like, I'm so ready to be hurt again. Like, I'm going to tune into the Hall of Fame game like it has big time stakes. That's how excited I am for football. And I'll worry about what it actually looks like in a week once I've had my film. I love this.

1:06:54Dave Helman: Like, I'm for the next like four or five days, I'm locked in on preseason football. But by the time we get to like August 9th until the season, I'm not going to want any part of it, man. Like I've already gotten my fill. I've got I feel like football's back now, but you get to a certain point with the preseason. And I think where it always starts to fall apart for me is you get to all of these games. And by the third quarter of every game, the offensive lines are so bad. They are getting mauled like the third string pass rushers are way better than third string offensive linemen. And you just see it in all of these games where they're just getting decimated.

1:07:34And so, like, once you see enough of those games, you're just like, I, I really don't know if I need to do a whole lot of this for the for the rest of the month.

1:07:41Dave Helman: I think I'm OK. My favorite thing about this time of year is after the initial wave of preseason games. There's just a game on NFL Network all the time. And you have to, like, double check to see if it's live or a replay. You're just like, OK, I'll I'll watch 18 minutes of Commanders Patriots preseason football, I guess. And then after, yeah, 18 minutes, you're like, you know, there's probably a movie on that would be more entertaining than what I've seen so far. But like I said, that's yeah, that's two weeks from now's problem, because right now I am ready to watch all of the preseason football and everything I just said doesn't matter yet.

1:08:23I am I'm ready to be hurt by the actual product of preseason football.

1:08:27Dave Helman: That's such a funny point about the scheduling being disorienting, too, because I think, you know, as football fans, we've been conditioned, right? You got Sunday all day. You got Monday night. You got Thursday night. It's a very clear pace to it. But the preseason gets a little bit wonkier in terms of where stuff is being played that it just never feels right. I'm looking at it right now, man. Next weekend, we got Thursday night, Friday night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday. It's it's wall to wall. And then, like I said, there's going to be a replay on at any time of day where there's not live football being played.

1:09:00So it's going to be very disorienting here very soon. All right. You got one last thing before we're done here. What you got?

1:09:09Dave Helman: Yeah, the last one and this one is kind of cheating because they weren't together last year. So it doesn't really count as like a 2024 based thing. But I'm just ready to do the Pete Carroll, Geno Smith thing again. I just, you know, we've talked about the Raiders for a number of ways, and this is kind of just another way to do it. But I just I really believe in Pete Carroll as a coach. And I think a lot of the things that went wrong in Seattle, you know, some of it falls on him, especially in terms of, you know, I think struggling to find the right defensive ingenuity over the last handful of years.

1:09:35Dave Helman: But I just feel like he has kind of in the way that Rabel does just a way to put guys together and get them to play well. And then, you know, I think, you know, Smith is a top 10 quarterback. So it's just put those two together with some really good skill players. One of the best pass rushers in the league on the other side. I just it's hard to say how good they'll be, but I'm willing to be hurt by this duo again. This goes back to what we were talking about with the Jags, where if the Raiders played in the AFC South or the NFC South or even I don't know, there's got to be at least a couple other divisions I would say this about.

1:10:09If they played somewhere else, I would be pounding that drum. I'd be like, you're sleeping on the Raiders. We'll worry about their secondary later. Look at me. Look at the quarterback. Look at the rookie running back. They got one of the best tight ends in football. Like there's a lot to like. they just happen to play in the same division as an ongoing NFL dynasty. And so that limits what I think their potential is. Right. Cause I mean, it would be an all time fun, crazy story. If the Raiders, if the Geno Smith Raiders are the team to finally take the AFC West from the chiefs, can you imagine?

1:10:45That would be so sick, dude. And again, personally, I can't imagine though. Like I can't see that.

1:10:50Dave Helman: Yeah. Even in my like highest fantasies, It's really hard to imagine that because you've got the Chiefs dynasty, but also like I think a lot of people think that the Broncos and the Chargers can be 10 win teams. So you've got that to contend with, which I think makes it all complicated. But yeah, if they were in the South, the NFC South, I'd probably pick them like I like truthfully, I really would. I think they're like at least they're at least like on the level of like the Bucs to me. It's just, you know. The Bucs get six games that are a little bit easier than the reality. Yeah, the reality of the league format is killing my buzz with the Las Vegas Raiders, because I would like this team a hell of a lot more if they played somewhere else.

1:11:27So I don't think that's crazy. And yeah, I think we joked about it on a previous show where they're very high on my list of teams I'm excited to watch. I just I think they unfortunately have a very defined ceiling this year. All right. That does it for what we are ready to be hurt by. I think it's a fantastic list. I can't wait to maybe maybe one of these will age well, man. Like maybe in October we can high five about the six and one. Actually, there's no record that the Jags could have that would make me high five until they get across the finish line.

1:12:00Dave Helman: I saw 2023. You got to get there. You got to go all the way. All right. Point being, we will keep an eye on it until then. That's all we got for today. Keep an eye on the feed. We got so much more coming your way. I appreciate it for Derek. I'm Dave. We'll talk to you soon.

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