Which second-year QB showed the most promise entering 2026?

0:00Hey, Yetis. This is Nick and Jack from the Best One Yet podcast.

0:03Robert Mays: Now, the last company we worked at, they used Paylocity and everything just worked. It wasn't until launching our own media business, this show, that we realized how rare that is. Because Paylocity is one delicious burrito of operational needs. They roll up HR, finance, and IT seamlessly into one delicious bite. When everything wraps together like that all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools, you don't even need cilantro. You need one solution. And that is why Paylocity built a single platform to connect HR, finance, and IT with AI-driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power what's next.

0:36Robert Mays: Or as we call it, a delicious operational burrito. Yes, we do. Experience a one place for all your HCM needs, besties. So start now at paylocity.com slash one. Paylocity.com slash O-N-E. when you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there's no room for slowdowns with granger's vast selection of high quality motors sensors belts and hard to find parts you can get what you need fast and all in one place so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done call 1-800-GRANGER click granger.com or just stop by granger for the ones who get it done Your team just added its 67th AI tool and also your 67th security blind spot.

1:26Robert Mays: The good news? The Vanta agent works like a GRC engineer in the background, finding every app your team uses, scoring the risk, and drafting fixes for you. Vanta is the platform used by over 16 ,000 fast-moving companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Harvey, who are shaping the future with AI and staying ahead of AI risk. Get started at Vanta.com.

1:49Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. We're kicking off our lingering questions series for the 2026 offseason today. We did this last year. We did, I think, four shows last year. We're doing five this year. Just stuff that by the end of last year, we didn't have the time or bandwidth to really dig into. You know, teams that weren't going to make the playoffs, teams that were at the bottom of the standings, teams that just kind of fall out of mind as we get a little bit deeper into the season. They have a lot of important things that we want to think about and dig into before we get into next year.

2:21Robert Mays: And so we're going to do five lingering questions shows this year, probably about 15 or so total questions. On this show, though, we get one question. How did the rookie quarterbacks play in 2025? Because it's really four questions. So we're going to dig into the guys that played at least 250 snaps last year. Jackson Dart, Cam Ward, Tyler Shuck, Shadur Sanders. That's what we're doing today. What do their rookie seasons look like? What does that mean for those quarterbacks moving forward? Me and Derek dug into all of that today. So let's get to it right now.

3:00Robert Mays: Kicking off our lingering questions series today on the athletic football show. One of my favorite things that we do in the off season, obviously, when you get to the end of any regular season in the NFL, really the last month or so, you're kind of zeroing in on the playoff teams. You're zeroing in on the teams that are going to matter all the way through January or February. And there are just some really important topics and questions associated with the league that you don't really have time to discuss in real time as we're barreling toward the playoffs. And so last offseason, we did this and we're going to do it again.

3:32Robert Mays: We're going to have five shows where we're just sitting with some lingering questions we didn't really have the bandwidth to address at the end of last regular season. And Derek, there's only one lingering question on this show. There will be three or so on the rest of them. The one lingering question on this show is, how did the rookie quarterbacks play in 2025? And so that is what we're going to be digging into today. Yeah, one question with, if we tried to cover this in what we do, a normal span of one question, talking about four quarterbacks, it would be what, five minutes apiece? We can't do that.

4:01They need 20 minutes apiece.

4:03Robert Mays: So we're going to hit the guys who, I think the snap total that I had in my head was like 250. That's what I was using as the filter on every number I looked up for the show. So let's do it for this. The guys who played about 250 snaps last year who were, if not full-time starters, then their team started for a good chunk of the season and then have a chance to be their team starter this year. That lands us with four guys. Cam Ward, Jackson Dart, Tyler Shuck, and Shador Sanders. So those are the four guys that we're going to be digging into today. Let's just go in the order they were drafted, and let's start with Cam Ward.

4:34Robert Mays: Just some context and table setting for what we got from Cam Ward last season from a statistical perspective. and why I think it's important to start here is that it's going to lead us into maybe a little bit of cognitive dissonance with the rest of the conversation but I do think that we can bridge these two things since 2016 according to next gen stats only Deshaun Kaiser had a worse success rate than Cam Ward for quarterbacks with I think it was at least 500 snaps he was bottom seven in EPA per drop back among that group since 2016 just ahead of Zach Wilson just behind CJ Beathard Really, the only full-time starter last year or prominent starter last year that was behind Cam Ward in any efficiency metric you're going to look at was Shadur Sanders.

5:19Robert Mays: And so really, by any measure, it was a pretty rough statistical season for Cam Ward. But I have a feeling, Derek, as we dig into this, that there's a little glimmer of hope for you with Cam Ward moving forward despite kind of the statistical cloud that is hanging over what his rookie season looked like. he's still very much a player that I'm excited about in in the same way that I was when he was coming into the league where it's like he is an imperfect player I think I think he has a couple of imperfections one like he's just not the biggest guy he's only like he's not small but he's just not one of those it's not he's not built like Josh Allen like Dak Prescott none of those guys and so he has that going on for him where you wonder about some of his durability in terms of taking hits I think he's a very good mover in the pocket which we'll talk about in a little bit but I think in terms of how well can he actually stand up and make throws, I think can be difficult because that's kind of what I want to get into some of his downfalls a little bit.

6:15You have the size element, but he also has a very low and like kind of sidearm release, which I think in some ways works for him. He like his hips fire so fast and the release is so fast. And so in some ways, it helps him, especially with quick game. In other ways, it hurts him where he can't get the ball over guards every now and then. I think he puts less arc on the ball than some of the other guys. So sometimes his downfield touch accuracy can be a little bit more hit or miss than guys like Tyler Shuck or Jackson Dart that we're going to talk about in this class. And so he has some of those drawbacks.

6:47And he's also obviously willing to make some insane throws, which can bite you and can also be a good thing depending on how good you are. But I just I see the way that he moves. I see how good he already is in quick game. And we'll talk about this with Tyler Shuck too. But like, ward and shuck are the only two guys in this class that to me are already good at like as soon as the back foot hits they can make the throw they are ready they can see things they they react to stimuli in a way that is very fast and obviously they're not right all the time they're rookie players and especially with ward it was a very bad team but i still thought that he gave that baseline and then just some of the playmaking and arm talent is just like holy shit man like even with some of the numbers i'm willing to bet on that every time it's funny when you're talking

7:29Robert Mays: about the downfield touch and accuracy with the way that he throws i think his best downfield throws for the most part this season were some like deeper corner routes and pylon sort of routes where the ball tailing to the sideline is okay because it's actually where he's throwing the ball the ball doesn't have to turn over all the way like it would on just like a traditional go route or something a little bit closer to the middle of the field and so those were some of his best throws i mean there was one he hit against the texans in the second texans game where it's, I think it was third and 16.

7:58Robert Mays: And he just rifles that thing on like a deep pylon route to Chikokonkwo. And those are the types of throws that keep you coming back for Cam Ward. And I think that's the discussion here. It is very similar to a lot of the ways that we play golf, just like amateur golfers. Like it's your entire round is just horse shit. But if you get those one or two that feel good, that's enough to keep you coming back potentially. essentially that's kind of where we are with cam word and the question that i think you have to ask yourself is should we do that like are those high-end moments and some of the stuff where it's like man i really like this is that enough to hang on to when you consider how much bad there was on the tape there it's not just the analytical profile the cisco profile there was some decent amount of bad stuff like watching him down to down we could talk about why that happened And so do you, is the, are those flashes, are those moments of that high end stuff and high end arm talent?

8:56Robert Mays: Is that enough to shine through a lot of the questions and the concerns that we have? I think that's going to be at the center of the discussion about Cam Ward as we think about what he can be in year two. And to me, I think you have to be, because like when you look at the arm talent, like all of the best quarterbacks in the league, for the most part, the top seven, top eight guys have arms that the ball comes out incredibly snappy. They are able to throw from any platform the way that Cam Ward is able to also throw under duress like that Texans throw that you mentioned. He's getting smoked by a defender in the pocket, but he's very willing to make a lot of those throws.

9:29And I think you kind of need a lot of those traits to be able to be successful in the NFL. And then also just as a mover, he's not the he almost is in like the Mahomes ish category where he's not the fastest straight line guy. But his short area quickness, the way that he can feel where defenders are like behind him in the pocket at times. Like Caleb Williams obviously has this trade as well, and he's not quite as explosive as Caleb. Caleb's kind of in a very special category in that regard. But I do think Ward is kind of in that tier right below that, where he's just a very special guy in terms of how he can evade players and get outside of the pocket.

10:01And so I think for those reasons, what he gives you as an aggressive passer, potentially what he gives you as a creator. And really, I think the baseline looking a little bit better than the numbers, like in terms of the success rate, not that he doesn't have flaws, but I think it's better than the numbers show. I'm still pretty willing to bet on that in the same way that I was before he even played it down in the NFL

10:20Robert Mays: I want to talk about how the circumstances bleed into the numbers and lead to them in a lot of ways I think it's a really important thing to acknowledge and we can talk about that in a second the point about him being a creator is an interesting one because I wonder if he clears the bar in a really important way when it comes to that because when you look at the sack rate specifically last year It's 8.9%. It was a top 12 rate for all quarterbacks since 2016 with at least 500 dropbacks per next gen. He took a lot of sacks last year. And when I look at some of the other guys that are on that list and the guys that ended up either becoming good quarterbacks or on there or hopefully are on their way to being guys really excited about Caleb Williams, obviously on that list.

11:00Robert Mays: Russell Wilson's on there twice. Deshaun Watson's on there. I do think that Caleb and Russell specifically, one of the reasons that Caleb Williams is able to come out on the other side of this is that his sack avoidance because he's such a special athlete just puts him in a really unique category when you look at what he did this year. Russell Wilson is one of the best creators we've ever seen at the position. Deshaun Watson was a really, really good athlete early in his career. Do we think that Cam Ward has that sort of gear to him athletically and from a creation perspective where he can kind of break through taking sacks at this level.

11:36Robert Mays: I have I have a real question about that. Like, I do think it might be possible, but I don't think he's quite at the same level as some of those other guys that have had those sack heavy seasons and then ended up coming out on the other side of it. Well, but so that's interesting with Wilson and Watson specifically. They didn't stop taking sacks like those were guys that still played that way. And they just became so good at all the other stuff that they offered you that they were able to do that. Williams is almost like the exception where he was able to stop doing that sort of stuff. And that obviously took, he really started to play football in a different way, which I'm not sure.

12:12Guys usually don't make such a dramatic change in play style the way that Caleb Williams did. So he feels more like the exception. Or I think what you're more betting on with Ward is that he's more like a Russell Wilson or a Deshaun Watson, where it's like, he might just be a high-ish sack player. You're just hoping that all the explosives and better play kind of comes after that.

12:32Robert Mays: I guess that's my question. Those guys, it's worth it because of the creation you're getting on the other side of it. And that you see some of that with Cam where, and I think, and think that's kind of what leads to the sacks. It's a, it's a mixed bag. A lot of it is a mixed bag with last year's Titans offense. Some of it, there are plays where guys are just getting dumped in his lap immediately. And there's really nothing to be done. Like going back and watching it, Dan Moore was even rougher than I remembered him being. If you watch like the final month of last season. Like he didn't start well.

13:00Robert Mays: He didn't end well, even against the blitz. A lot of the times, like they're just dumb trucking Tajay Spears directly into cam words lap. So there are plays where there's really nothing to be done about it, but there are other plays. If you're trying to like figure out the pie chart of where these sacks are coming from, where he's turning down some easy completions and he's holding out to the ball, maybe a little bit too long because he's hunting something later in the down. And I do think that overall that can be a positive inclination for quarterbacks. There can be stuff waiting on the other side of that that's really, really good for you.

13:31Robert Mays: But he led the league, for example, in extended pressures this year per next gen. Cam Ward did. Mahomes was second. If you're going to play like that, you need the creation stuff on the other side to make it worth it. And I kind of am on the line with Cam Ward. There are enough flashes of it where he turns it down, he pulls the ball down, he starts climbing in the pocket, looks to his left, and he flips the ball to the back for 12 yards late in the down. That stuff does happen. But does it happen often enough for him to be hunting out these big plays? I don't think his clock is broken, like in a way that some other guys who take a lot of sacks, their clock is broken.

14:10Robert Mays: I do think there's a method to why he's playing this way. I just worry that the rewards at the end of the road of this play style are going to be big enough with him to justify how he wants to play the sport. I think that's a good way to put it, though. that the clock is not broken he can play on time when he wants to it's just it's I think more of a calibration issue and a he's just a player that believes that he can win the game all the time and I do think that those maybe this is a little bit of cope but like players like that specifically often look worse on teams that are bad because it's hard to make really good plays when your team is terrible and so it's it's almost like the guys who are better just taking checkdowns and taking some of your easy yards when they're on bad teams can sometimes look like half functional and the numbers aren't the worst because you're just taking all of these easy gains where I think Ward did not want to do that because he was so often behind the sticks I do think though that there is a world where two years from now three years from now whatever it is he can mature enough to the point that it's like he's still on the more aggressive side the way that Dak Prescott might be or Jordan Love but he can learn to know when like all right we need to take the the foot the gas here in the middle of the second quarter.

15:19Let's just go get a field goal drive here. Let's not be insane. I do think that that is a skill that guys can learn. He has to go prove that he can do it. But I think it's harder to teach some of the FU, I can go make this play and I need to go be able to do this than it is to, you know, not to not have that and then have to teach a guy to do that.

15:38Robert Mays: I mean, I think that's we have there's two guys on this in this conversation. We're going to have that about like Jackson Dart is in that same boat where it's like he's going to push it. And there are positives and negatives to that, but you kind of like the fact that you have to rein him back in a little bit sometimes. Like it's almost easier to operate that way than it is on the other side. And so I think that like you just said, and so Cam Ward being that sort of guy, I think that is ultimately a positive for him. And like you said, the situation, and it's really important to keep coming back to this because I think at the core of how you can still believe in a quarterback that was as poor statistically as Cam Ward was last year, so much of it is tied up and how bad the surroundings were.

16:16Robert Mays: They were so, so bad. The offense was bad the entire year, right? The offensive lad's bad the entire year. Your play calling head coach gets fired like four weeks into the season. So now you're scrambling with like, who's in charge of the offense? How are we going to do this? And if you watch the offense, there's just nothing to it. Like there's absolutely nothing to it. There was so little within that offense schematically or structurally that was easy for the quarterback. There was a stretch. There was a two-play sequence against the Niners where it was second and eight, and they ran a sprint out to the right side.

16:51Robert Mays: There was nothing there. He dirts it. It's then third and eight, and they were on a screen on third and eight. That was it. That was the sequence. That was the series of downs. And the amount of screens they ran last year, I think just because they were like, yeah, we can at least try this. They were second in the NFL in the percentage of wide receiver screens they ran last year, the Titans, per next gen. They were 31st in success rate on those plays, 31.8%. So they did it a shitload and they were awful at it. And that's kind of the story of the 2025 Titans. They did a lot of stuff and they were bad at all of it.

17:24And that's such an important thing too, because it becomes a twofold problem where one, you are then losing efficiency on your overall numbers on those plays, right? Like they're just completely wasted plays as opposed to some guys who throw screens and maybe it's good for their team and you can boost your numbers that way. but then also say you do that on first and 10 and now it's second and 11 or second and nine and so then the next play is harder because you're bad at that and that bleeds into the numbers and so I don't want this to fully sound like we were absolving Cam Ward of uh of his issues like he has to make some maturity in terms of knowing when it's it's right to play on time and knowing when I don't need to be a little bit aggressive here or not holding on to the ball quite as long as he does but a lot of it was just like he kind of plays this way and when you're on a bad team it's going to look really, really bad a lot of the time.

18:11Robert Mays: When you look at just the collection of receivers that he was throwing to by the end of last season, I watched a lot of games near the end of the year. And those games at the end of the year, Van Jefferson is heavily involved in the Titans offense by the end of last season. Elec Iomanor, Chimere Dike, these guys who are day three rookies that were raw and specific. And now you're just asking to build the entire passing game out of them. And there are a lot of frustrating moments in that. I can't remember which game it was. I want to say it was the Niners game. They had a fourth and one, and he like popped the ball to Gunnar Helm on the sideline wide open, and Gunnar Helm didn't get his second foot down.

18:48Robert Mays: And so they just turned the ball over on fourth and one for no reason. There was so much of that last year. And so I think if you're going to harbor as much optimism for Cam Ward as you do, and then I think I'm a little bit further back but still have some, you truly have to talk yourself into the idea of, even with as many red flags as there might be, as many warning signs as there might be, if the circumstances improve, if they go from truly bottom of the barrel to merely below average with a Wandel Robinson, with a Carnell Tate, with Brian Dable coming in there, can he look like a dramatically different player?

19:26Robert Mays: There's a little bit of wish casting in that, right? Like you got to talk yourself into that a little bit. You got to convince yourself of it. But I don't think it's a crazy thing to try to talk yourself into. I think it's actually a reasonable place to land. And Tate specifically, right? Because I've talked about a number of times with the Titans. I think especially this can actually often be the case with really aggressive quarterbacks. Dak has had this problem before. Trevor has had this issue before. When you are so consistently like throwing with anticipation, throwing early into aggressive windows and your receivers are in the wrong spot or don't know how to come back to the ball or X or not getting their second foot down on the sideline shit like that consistently you're gonna look really really bad instead of again taking some of those easier more automatic gains but that's just the style of player he is and they just didn't have other players who were good at helping him do that Wanda Robinson for as much as we can say about should you have paid him that amount of money he's better than all of the receivers they had last year and then Carnal Tate is a very good like will be in the right spot will catch the ball away from his frame sort of guy and So I do think while it takes a little bit more wish casting, I think, to get there on is he going to not take as many sacks, you know, that sort of thing.

20:35I do think the efficiency just by throwing to better players will help him. And the last thing I'll say, the reason I think I'm so bought in on why he can improve this things where I may not always be with every player at face value. Cam Ward got better in college every single year. Like he went from basically not a quarter, like not a passing quarterback coming out of high school to Incarnate Word, levels up to Washington State. Then he goes to Miami and is really, really successful there. And obviously his rookie year didn't go very well, but that's hard to do on a team like this. And so I'm just kind of bought in on the progress that he's already shown and how he just seems like a buttoned up sort of guy.

21:12And so for that reason, I'm a little bit more willing to believe it with him.

21:15Robert Mays: I can understand that. And again, the situation was just so, so bad. There was a play against the Chiefs. It was a third and three, and they tried to run DK on like a rail in motion, just like up the sideline to the side that he was going in motion. And the ball is snapped at like the perfect time for him to run into Okonkwo as he's trying to run a route into the flat. And so it's third and three. Okonkwo should be opening the flat for a first down. It's the entire point of the design of the play. They run into each other, and Cam Ward has to eat the sack. And so there's plenty of that stuff where it's just like you have no shot.

21:47Robert Mays: Like you are just sunk before this thing even gets started. But then you look at a game like the Niners game. He tried to throw four different picks in that game. Like it's so it's a little bit on both sides. And I think that where you land in terms of the overall percentage of what caused this ultimately is going to lead you to how you ultimately feel about Cam Ward's rookie year at the end of the day. Yeah. And I will say for as much as I'm bought in on him, I think I am more understanding of the other side than I sometimes am with these quarterbacks that I'm willing to be out ahead on like you know last year drake may for example drake may the overall numbers were not bad but one he was a better prospect and is obviously built in a different way than a guy like cam ward but also drake may's like success rate was quietly kind of good despite the patriots not being that good of a team with cam ward for as much as i like some of the highs and you can explain away some of the lower success rate that just wasn't even close to true in the same way there's nothing as concrete nothing so concrete that you can really hang your hat on with him compared to some of the other guys where maybe the numbers weren't quite as bad, but you're like, ah, you know what?

22:48Robert Mays: This thing leads me to believe that he might be okay. That really doesn't exist with Cam Ward. You kind of got to tell yourself a story about the high-end throws and what they can look like if they happen more consistently. All right, let's take our first quick break here and then come back and chat a little bit about Jackson Dirk. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is the focus. For others, juggling it all can be tough and can lead to them feeling overwhelmed and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school.

23:19Robert Mays: And many worry they're wasting days of sunshine. Luckily for me, I'm in the former group. Summer is absolutely my favorite season. Love going to the pool, love going to the beach, love doing everything that summer entails. But one thing that I think is important is that my wife and I make sure to make time for ourselves. Yes, we definitely pour into our kids. We make sure that they're getting the best experience they can. but then we also maybe go to a baseball game. We also stay up late in our backyard after the kids are asleep and really enjoy summer for ourselves in addition to enjoying it with them.

23:51Robert Mays: Therapy can help people better understand their needs, feel more confident setting boundaries and create a version of summer that actually feels good. With more than 30 ,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform having served more than 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals.

24:19Robert Mays: A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12-plus years of experience and industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash maize. That's BetterHelp.com slash maize.

24:49Robert Mays: When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there's no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high-quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard-to-find parts, You can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. I'm Jake Stouck, co-founder and CEO of Serval. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications, my laptop stopped working.

25:31Robert Mays: while employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work, and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English, and it's built. No drag-and-drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked, and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters. With Serval, IT becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run IT. We guarantee you'll automate 50 % of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four-week pilot. Go to serval.com slash ACAST.

26:09Robert Mays: That's S-E-R-V-A-L dot com slash ACAST.

26:21Robert Mays: All right, so I'm curious about your Jackson Dart feelings after going back and watching a little Jackson Dart. Like, where do you feel like you're landing on the Dart experience in year one? So I think with all of these quarterbacks, I think the way I kind of tried to parse my feelings was like, do I think it is more or less likely that by the end of the rookie contract, they are the quarterback the team wants to be moving forward with? I probably lean towards no with Jackson Dart, and that doesn't mean that he can't get there. I think I'm just a little bit more towards on the other side that I think he needs a lot to prove.

26:55What I will say and what I'll start with, he is firmly above the line of guys who just came in and immediately had no shot. Well above whatever the Zach Wilson line is. He well clears that. But I think for as much excitement as there is around him a little bit right now, I think he's closer to the Kenny Pickett, Mitchell Trubisky range where it's like he does some things well. You can see why this would work, but it still feels very herky-jerky to me right now. And I think that there are enough holes in his game that I'm just not sure I want to buy in all the way right now.

27:29Robert Mays: The Kenny Pickett name is an interesting one. And Herky Jerky is an interesting, there's a notable description. If you look at the numbers, so that in terms of being above the line, Jackson darts like efficiency numbers last year for Ricky Corbin are objectively good. Okay, so he was 20th in e-paper drop back last year, 26th if you remove scrambles, which I do think is an important thing that we can get to. Okay, but even if you do, that more than clears the bar. If you look at rookies since 2016 with at least 250 dropbacks, there were 34 of them. He is just behind Bo Nix and Carson Wentz, speaking of herky-jerky, and he's just ahead of Kenny Pickett.

28:04Robert Mays: So he's like right in that group where it's like, I'm not sure what to do with this. And I think the statistical profile puts you in a, I'm not sure what to do with this. And then the play itself and the style of play itself, I think leads to a lot of questions. There's stuff to be excited about undeniably, but I think there are some worrying things and I think there's some stuff that still needs to be answered if you're going to like truly have a lot of faith in what Jackson Dart can be moving forward. Yeah, he's just while he's where, like I said, I can see the window to success, but I'm not all the way bought in there.

28:38I do want to start, though, with what I think he does well and why there's reason to be excited. one he's like for as much as he tries to put his his body in harm's way which he should probably not do as much he is pretty well built and i think he's a really good athlete like he's obviously like he's totally explosive he's really good at getting outside of the pocket um and he's a good designed runner like some guys are good scramblers but don't have like the sense to be a designed runner or vice versa but that that i do not believe to be the case with dart i think he's really good at both he's got a little bit of that like creativity do some shit outside of the pocket Like he is willing to get to weird arm angles or throw across his body a little bit.

29:15And of course, these things can lead to bad plays. But in the same way that we talked about Cam Ward, I would rather you at least have that and me try to walk you back a little bit or at least get you good enough at some of the other stuff that whatever downsides we're getting from that are not like sinking you as a player. I also think that he is he is very unafraid as a as a thrower. And I mean that both in terms of testing windows and in terms of being willing to hang on his spot in the pocket and take a shot like he's I think sometimes he can be numb in the pocket and not move when he should but he's willing to stand on his spot look down the barrel of the gun and be like I can make that throw I think and he's also willing to like make those throws into tight windows I think sometimes he has trouble accessing those windows because I don't think his his arm is fine but it's not like exceptional in any way where he probably is biting off more than he can chew but I would again at least rather have a passer who was willing to make those throws and force defenses to respect it so for those reasons i get why there's excitement around him last i mean

30:12Robert Mays: i think all of those are right and he the toughness really stands out in ways both good and bad right you can argue that he's a little bit too tough at this point with all the hits so was carson wentz it's funny you bring up that name but he's he's a much better athlete than carson wentz like young carson wentz could move a little bit young carson wentz could move much better than he could later in his career post-injury but right now jackson dart is a much better athlete than carson once ever was in the NFL and a much more fluid athlete. Yes. Yes. I mean, he moves just a ton better. And so I think that's worth pointing out the other.

30:43Robert Mays: I think that's a strength. I think that like you said, there's a level of aggressiveness with some of this stuff he's willing to try. There was a throw in the Vikings game, which was an utter disaster. And we could talk about that in the context of like who he is. But there was a third and 16 in the Vikings game where Wandel runs like a deep hook over the ball against like a funky cover to look. And he just puts his foot in the ground and chucks that thing over the middle on third and 16 for a first down like he is willing to put the ball in those tight windows and try to make some stuff happen and one of I agree with you in that him his ability to access those windows I think it's harmed in two ways one the fact that his arm isn't like uber elite and two he's late on stuff like he needs to see stuff come open and like that's a we'll have that conversation but like that to me kind of muddies the windows that he's able to access.

31:34Robert Mays: But what I think gives him the opportunities to access some of those windows, he's really accurate. He is a really accurate quarterback. Like, I think that is underrated because I think there are so many other elements of his game that feel really raw in terms of like the quarterbacking that he's doing. But his ability to place the ball really to all levels of the field, I thought was really impressive. This is just like a simple way of doing it. But if you look at like off target percentage on true media, he had the fourth best in the league. The only guys ahead of him were Joe Burrow, Mac Jones, Spencer Rattler.

32:07Robert Mays: That's it. And so there are areas of his game that absolutely need refinement. But I was, I was honestly more impressed than I expected to be with his ability to place the ball. And I think that again, if you're trying to find things to kind of hang your hope on the little pegs, the accuracy to me should be one of them. I think I agree. And but I think it needs work in this sense. I think when he is on time and confident and clean, he's very accurate. I think he is really quick to have his feet unravel and really be not on time. And I think that that causes a lot of accuracy issues. And I think this is actually a good point that I want to make with him.

32:45I think in terms of arm talent, he clears the bar in terms of NFL stuff. But again, it's not like a plus for him. I think he probably has the arm that is like a tick better than Purdy, but I think they are like close enough to me that I'm willing to group them. The difference with Purdy is that he plays so on time and is so mechanically put together that he is very accurate really at, you know, everything up until the 20 yard mark. Jackson Dart has those flashes and moments when he's really loves the concept or it's something they've practiced a lot or pocket is squeaky clean, whatever it is. But I think him getting a little bit more comfortable and finding ways to be on time more consistently or when he's slightly uncomfortable find ways to continue to be accurate I think that that is something he probably needs to level up and then I would actually say too even similar to Purdy he is just not good throwing down the field I don't think he's really good throwing a go ball I think otherwise he kind of struggles to throw deep down the field right now he's willing to do it but I don't think he's that accurate doing it at this stage and the problem we talk about him playing on time to me that if I'm really focusing on the weaknesses that I'm

33:47Robert Mays: most concerned about, that would be it. I mean, when you watch him play quarterback, especially when you compare him to like Shuck and like what Shuck is doing, it is a lot of, we're picking a side, we're working that side. If I see it come open, I'm going to throw it. That is a majority of the work that Jackson Dart was doing as a quarterback, as a rookie. That is okay for a rookie quarterback coming from a very strange, hyper-specific college system that does not ask a ton of the quarterback mentally. It's not surprising that that's what we got from Jackson dart last year. The question is going to be, can he move past that?

34:20Robert Mays: Like, can he move past the very narrow window and very narrow band he had to exist in as a rookie? I don't know what my confidence level is that he can't. I'm not saying that he can't, but I also don't know how much we've seen that would lead me to believe like emphatically. Yes. Like I think that he can be more than what he is right now in that area. And I think part of the reason I'm skeptical of it is that you, it really is see it throw it there there is very little like I'm anticipating this coming open I'm throwing this before I have to it for the most part guys are open when he is making these decisions and that is consistently what's happening and it's limited really to one side of the field that's the first side of the field he goes to and again actually it's it's funny you bring up Carson Wentz Carson Wentz had a lot of that issue where it was a lot of RPO it was a lot of just pick a side sort of stuff and that can work in stretches and it can work for you know for a little bit, but you do run out of road a little bit there if you are not able to progress beyond that.

35:17And obviously, you know, there's a chance that Dart can do that. But it is a little bit more concerning that I think of the three of the three guys we're going to talk about here that are for sure their team starter next year in Cam Ward, Tyler Shuck, Jackson Dart, what he was asked to do as a rookie, I think, was the most dumbed down of the three. And so I think that actually plays into why he was actually in some ways allowed to be more efficient kind of immediately because it was just more stuff that he was kind of used to and capable of. I think the other note I would make to in terms of what I really want to see him improve on, his pocket movement is extreme, to say the least.

35:52Like, he is either not moving in his spot, or he is just hopping around, eyes drop. It's very, like, Jalen Hurts could be this way, Youngbo Nix could be this way. Like, it just, that issue, I think, definitely needs to be solved. He needs to be more buttoned up in that sense.

36:06Robert Mays: I mean, there are not second reaction plays for the most part with him. He is taking off if he gets pressured. And this may be a weird comparison, but when I went back and I was watching him, I think the degree to which he's scrambling, the accuracy being, in my opinion, like a positive, especially in the intermediate area of the field. Some of the work he did against the Blitz was actually pretty impressive this year. And I think that speaks to when teams are vacating an area and making a decision for him, he can look pretty good. and so there are elements of his game that to me kind of feel like off-brand rookie jayden daniels a little bit i can see that yeah and it's just but with daniels it looks better because he's just like more talented in a lot of ways and then he's just better at all every like every single tuner is up more with jayden daniels than it is with jackson dart but like stylistically and just some of the strengths some of the weaknesses again you turn it down or up for dark compared to jayden daniels but there were more similarities to like watching them play and stylistically how they approached the position than i maybe expected before i went back and i watched him that's good too because like of what they were asked of as rookies where with jayden daniels it was a little bit more simple than some of these guys and you know certain throws were just off the board because they again it was trying to retrofit what he had done in college and been so successful at that's actually a pretty good comparison and then i'm just i think less less confident that he will be able to maintain it in a way that obviously even jayden daniels didn't for as good as we believe him to but i'm a little bit less excited i think about it the other area that i think anecdotally this came through and then when i looked at the numbers it really kind of hammered at home he was bad in the red zone last year like bad when the field would shrink he really struggled he had a sub 30 success rate in the red zone last year per next gen the only quarterback that was worse with Spencer Rattler.

37:57Robert Mays: There was a sequence. I can't remember which game it was. Oh, it was against the Raiders. There was a sequence where he had a second down with like a couple of potential options coming on the backside where he turns it. He bails instead of waiting for those options to come back on the backside. And then on third down, there's just like a failed screen. And it's like you, this cannot be what you guys are coming away with from like the 12 yard line. And so, and that happened decently often where you would see them get down into the red zone and those drives are just short circuit. And so when the field shrinks and the decisions have to come quicker, you do have to play with a little bit more anticipation.

38:32Robert Mays: Those windows aren't going to be as big for you're seeing stuff and coming open. I think that is an area where those weaknesses really do shine through with him. And that's great because, yeah, in the red zone, nobody looks open. You're having to you're just like everything is NFL window. You got to pray that my guy's in the right spot. Like nobody looks open outside of some of those flat routes you might end up throwing. And so I think that that's a good point. That's one of those things that's like, because he's a runner, he has some red zone value, right? That's always where it is, is him taking off and running for touchdowns.

39:02Right. And that's a great tool to have. You still have to threaten people through the air for that to matter at all, at least in a sustained, you know, over the course of three, four years kind of way.

39:12Robert Mays: I will say this. It's worth mentioning. We talked about this and harped on it with the Cam Ward stuff. The players around Jackson Dart last year were not very good, right? It's a lot of Wandale Robinson and Darius Slayton and Theo Johnson. And we'll see what happens with Malik neighbors. There's no guarantee that Malik neighbors will be back this year. But the hope is that if they get Malik neighbors back healthy, the offensive line projects. It was a solid unit last year, and I think it projects as even a better unit this year. It's just funny. You could really feel, especially late in the season, there were a couple games and a couple stretches where Andrew Thomas was hurt and Marcus Bowe was playing left tackle.

39:47Robert Mays: It's crazy how different the offense felt. and in a way how his clock in the pocket was knowing that Andrew Thomas wasn't out there and so getting Andrew Thomas drafting Francis Maui Noah getting Jermaine Illuminor back like I think there's real hope that that offensive line has defined strength for them this year and I think for him specifically because he does need to wait a little bit to see this stuff come open that's really really important yeah 100 % and I actually I think as far as like rookie quarterback situations go his situation was like fine honestly I don't think it was that bad it was not a good NFL offense but most of these guys get dumped into just horrible situations yeah it was better than Cam Ward's I think we can admit that but it was not as good as Jack's as Tyler Shucks no probably not what no a lot of is better than than everybody else never mind yeah yeah a lot of is considerably better than Wanda Robinson and also and we'll talk about this in a second I was not very impressed with the construction of the Giants offense, the plan behind the Giants offense, just what the Giants offense was.

40:50Robert Mays: I was really impressed with what the Saints are doing. Like, watching the Saints, there's a lot of stuff associated with that offense where I'm like, oh, that's really nice. That's really good. That's making it easier on the quarterback. And so beyond the players around them, I actually think that the situation overall, we're talking about supporting cast in the NFC next week, the situation for Tyler Shuck, I came away even more excited about it than I was going into it after watching like what that offense felt like down to down. Well, and but that one's interesting, too. And we can talk about this when we get to Shuck.

41:21I think part of that is just like he can handle that. I'm not sure Jackson Dart could handle some of, you know, the ways that the offense was different in New Orleans.

41:28Robert Mays: I guess so. I mean, there are some parts of that. But like, I also just think that there are plays where we're isolating Chris Alave on the backside. He's running a slant like Tower Shuck doesn't have anything to do with that. That's like that's a very defined choice for him in the moment. But the amount of motion that the Saints use, like they were one of the most motion heavy teams in the league. And there are other elements of that offense that put a ton on the quarterback, which we can talk about. But there were, I think, a lot of levers they were pulling to make things a little bit easier that aren't necessarily about the quarterback's mental capacity.

41:59Robert Mays: I think it's just how much easier we making it for each individual player within the offense. To me, that was happening more often going back and watching the Saints than it was with either the Titans or the Giants. All right, let's take one more quick break here and then come back and have that Tyler Shuck discussion.

42:39Robert Mays: getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. I'm Jake Stouck, co-founder and CEO of Serval. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications, my laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work, and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English and it's built. No drag and drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters.

43:23Robert Mays: With Serval, IT becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run IT. We guarantee you'll automate 50 % of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four-week pilot. Go to serval.com slash ACAST. That's S-E-R-V-A-L dot com slash ACAST. Need up to$250 before payday? You know the vibe. A few days left, your account on empty, and all your bills hit at once. With Clio, you can get up to$250 cash advance to help cover the gap. There's no interest, no credit checks, and you can repay on a schedule that works for you. Download Clio and get the cash you need before payday.

44:07Robert Mays: depending on eligibility you can get up to a 250 cash advance terms and conditions apply

44:18i don't know about you i like tyler shuck i liked him i he was of the quarterbacks here that i watched i think probably the one where i had most the most change of heart on depending on like what i what i thought coming into the league like cam ward i'm pretty much where i was coming into the league jacks is art probably the same thing chuck i believe that there is more of a pathway for him to be like a top 12 quarterback i don't know if he's necessarily going to jump into that but i was like more open to that after i went back and watched him this offseason than i was even coming out of the season if i even if i thought he was fine coming out of the season all right let's talk

44:53Robert Mays: about the strengths first because i i think that there are plenty of them and i'm with you i think that he can be like a second contract quarterback for the saints like i do think that's possible There are some considerations here with Tyler Shuck compared to the other guys when it comes to ceiling. Like, he'll be 27 this fall. And I think that's a really important thing to take into consideration because there is still enough that's rough around the edges and needs work where him being 27 and not 23 does kind of change the way that we have to talk about it. But when you watch him, I think that to me, the most important and the most impressive thing that he's doing is just how often he's accessing the middle of the field deep into progressions as a rookie quarterback.

45:33Robert Mays: Like it's happening pretty often. And even if it's not on backside stuff, like my favorite thing to watch them do last year is all the rap routes they ran. Like him just rifling in those rap routes over the middle of the field where, all right, hook defenders coming down. I'm throwing to the guy behind him. And when you compare his ability to throw the ball with anticipation into windows that have not come open yet over the middle of the field, and even on like outbreaking stuff to Olave, if you press the tape when Tyler Shuck is playing about when he is separating and where the receivers are coming out of their breaks, he's playing with like real anticipation for, I was going to say a young quarterback, for a rookie quarterback.

46:14Robert Mays: And I think that to me was one of the most impressive things going back and watching those games that consistently stood out about Chuck. I'm glad you say to his it's starting with his ability to actually get through all his reads. One of my first notes that I have in him in big bold letters is actually gets to his checkdowns, which is a very boring thing. But man, most rookie quarterbacks are completely horrible at it. Like they just they can't. It's like they don't want to do it. They can't get there. They're used to being playmakers, all this stuff. But Shuck is, you know, obviously he's more experienced in the college game, but like he is just very, very ready to know when to make those throws, but not necessarily rush to them all the time, even if maybe he actually does have that issue a little bit.

46:55But he's at least does a good job of always keeping the train on the tracks. I would say the other thing, too, is he obviously anticipates well on some of those, you know, second level of the field, third level of the field, knowing when his guy's about to clear a linebacker or undercut a safety or whatever it's going to be. He's very good at anticipating those and throwing those. I also think he's very good at when they do like three step drop or like five step drop, whatever it is. And he goes one to two, like on his fourth and fifth drop step, he's doing a good job of reading stimuli of being like, okay, this stick route is going to be open or this slant route is going to pass the linebacker or I need to actually go progress and get to my shallow.

47:29Like he's doing that during the drop step rather than getting to the top, taking a beat, having to see things and then making a throw. Like he's, like I said, I think him and Ward have more plays where they are as soon as the back foot hits, they're ready to throw. And I would even say Shuck is better than that at Cam Ward is already. And part of that is the way the offense functions, though, right? Like they just do a lot of it because he's very good at it.

47:53Robert Mays: And it's often like when they're doing it, it's the right approach to those downs and distances. Like if it's third and three, it's OK to like run a quick game concept and trust your quarterback to make the right decision to make an accurate throw. And he was doing it a decent amount. I am not a quick game lover, right? Like it's not the aspect of offensive football that I enjoy watching the most. But there were a lot of kind of pleasing moments on the Tyler Shuck rookie tape where it's just like, oh, man, that's just good stuff. Like he's just making the right choice in the right moment in a high, like in a crucial down and distance situation.

48:25Robert Mays: And it's really nice to see that from, again, a rookie quarterback, even if it's not a young one. and he's he's a very quick and fluid mover both both as a thrower but also like in finishing his drop step footwork in being able to progress you know move his feet a little bit together to a second or third read I think he's just sometimes these guys who are a little bit bigger a little bit lankier struggle to be as put together like Josh Allen early in his career looked like a baby giraffe like just had no grace to him whatsoever Shuck is very buttoned up in terms of how graceful it all looks. And so I think athletically he impresses me in that way.

48:59And it's one actually part I want to ask you about, because I think this was probably the hardest part of his game for me to parse. I think Shuck reacts to things in the pocket fairly well. And I think he does good moments of like knowing when he's going to get pressured and anticipating it. He's just not explosive. Like he just does not run away from guys. I just think he struggles with that.

49:21Robert Mays: Like, I think that he can get a little spooked too often. And I think if I'm trying to paint the picture of where is Tyler Shuck's ceiling going to be limited? Like where's that going to come from? To me, it's what happens when he gets pressured. And so I think that he's somewhere on like the golf continuum when we're talking about this. He's a better athlete than golf. And so he does have an answer that a Jared Goff wouldn't. Tyler Shuck is a capable enough athlete where in certain moments he can take off and run when pressured. But if you move him off his spot, that's when things get a little bit messy with him and the Saints offense.

50:03Robert Mays: And the numbers bear that out. So last season, when pressured per True Media, 24.4 % of his throws were off target, which was the highest rate in the NFL. When he wasn't pressured, it was 8%, which ranked 13th among all qualified quarterbacks. So it's just a drastic difference. Like it's, there's a chasm between what he looks like in terms of ball placement when pressured and what he looks like when he's kept clean. And so I just think handling those situations and whether it's getting to check downs even faster or being willing to take off more than he is, I just think he gets a little bit panicky and a little bit off kilter when pressured too often.

50:43Robert Mays: And that to me is the biggest question I'm left with about what his ceiling actually looks like. That's interesting. So coming out of college, I actually thought that was going to be a big concern for him that he could be a little bit, you know, scared in the pocket is the wrong word, but just like not quite as brave as some of the other guys. I actually thought he showed some pretty good flashes of being able to do that. Like there was a sequence against, I think it was the first drive against the Panthers, but he like, they run this man-free blitz on second down. he gets sacked. Like he just kind of sees it, but it's not explosive enough to get away from the pressure.

51:15He gets sacked on the ensuing third down. It's like third and 12 or whatever. It's going to be at this stage. He immediately gets pressure off the right side from Nick Scorton, but he like shakes him off, is able to go make a play outside of the pocket and chucks one on like a, like a scramble drill. And I was like, okay, I didn't know how much of that he would be able to do at the NFL level. And I think he needs to learn to be able to do that a little bit more, but I think because I trust that he sees it quick enough, and I think he actually has really good balance in the pocket. Like, he can shake people off.

51:43He just doesn't explode away from them. But I think that that gives him enough tools to actually be, like, kind of good in terms of, like, handling pressure.

51:51Robert Mays: I think we're having two different conversations because I think he's big enough and athletic enough to make a guy miss and then make a play outside of the pocket. To me, it's when he has to quickly reset. if he has to quickly reset i think you see him rush stuff and i think that's where you see the ball placement issues kind of come into play and i also think there are times it's it's not it's not totally bucketed in one way there are certain plays i think it was against the panthers where veille is running like this big crosser and the defensive tackle is getting walked right back into him which we'll talk about in a second and he with a guy in his face throws this crosser to Devon Bailey on the second and 13.

52:29Robert Mays: It's a perfect throw. So he's willing to stand in and make throws. But there are times where you see him kind of ducking away a little bit when there's pressure. Like, it's kind of all over the place. And I think him cleaning up what happens when he's pressured, however he ends up solving it, to me, that's going to be the most important thing. Talking about the pressure in his face with the defensive tackle, it was fascinating going back and watching the Saints offense. And there was so much to like about it. And again, some of the numbers. So the Saints last year were fourth overall in just overall motion percentage.

53:03Robert Mays: They were sixth in motion at the snap percentage. You see that. Like, it's a very dynamic offense. But the biggest difference between them and a lot of the other teams up near the top of the league in those sorts of metrics is that the entire thing essentially happens from the shotgun. Like, they were dead last in run action rate among any team in the league per next gen. So it's a combination of how often you're running the ball and how often you're using play action. And I think part of that is because the run game was so bad that they just weren't willing to lean on in any meaningful way. But what that does is it puts a shitload on the quarterback.

53:35Robert Mays: Like if you look at the other teams that are down near the bottom of the league and like run action rate from last year, it's like Joe Burrow. It's like the Bengals. And so that's a lot to put on a first year player. But so there's so much to me to like about the plan on offense, how it's put together, what Kellen Moore was doing. I can't remember watching a team like this and seeing as clear of a connection between where the weaknesses were last year and the players that they added this offseason. You mean David Edwards? When you watch them play last year, what's happening at left guard and how often that defensive tackle is in the quarterback's lap affecting plays is just happening over and over and over again.

54:15Robert Mays: And the other skill set, just so many moments where they're asking Mason Titman or Kevin Austin Jr. to be somebody that's creating separation in the intermediate and short areas of the field. Even like running a comeback off of that rail motion that I'm talking about, like just change of direction in the short and intermediate areas. That's exactly what Jordan Tyson is as a player. So like just dropping him and David Edwards into what I just watched. It's so easy for me to understand the vision of how it's supposed to get better that it's actually very cool and exciting. Like, I can't remember a situation that was this clean cut where it was like, these are the guys they added.

54:56Robert Mays: These are the roles they're supposed to fill. Let's get going because it is very obvious with the Saints. Well, I think that's cool to see from Kellen Moore, too, because it felt like early on in the season when Rattler was starting. And I think even very early on in like the shock era, they were a little bit throwing shit at the wall in terms of like what the offense was. It was like a grab bag of a lot of like Kellen Moore's greatest hits from previous offenses that he had called for Justin Herbert and Dak Prescott and all that. And it did feel like by the end, they started to hone in on like, OK, we can't do as much as much of the run action.

55:25We have to just be a gun team, but we're going to kind of pare down what we do as a gun team and be able to do all this stuff. It just felt like they honed in on a vision. And so going and now getting the players that actually fit into that vision. I'm excited for it. I think that this offense and this quarterback can be good. Again, I think there are concerns of what is the ceiling for a player that is already so old. And so because it's a double edged sword, right? Like, it's so cool that a young player or a young professional, a rookie was as polished as he was. But it's like, well, yeah, he's he's 26, 27 years old.

55:54He better be as polished as he is. And so you wonder, like, is the ceiling? Is he just Ryan Tannehill? Which is what I thought he would be coming into the league, which is like a good outcome for a second round quarterback.

56:04Robert Mays: I think that's a really good outcome. If he ends up being Ryan Tannehill, that's a fantastic outcome. It is. And like, that's an exceptional outcome. And you're just like, but I think it's very easy to see some of the highs that they got last year and like, want more than that. And I think that might be where there's some danger coming in. But I do think that he's a good player. And the baseline that he set was, even if he's an older player, pretty damn impressive, because there are older rookies that come in all the time and are not quite as buttoned up as this and have, you know, the high success rates that he did as a young player.

56:34And so I thought it was a really impressive rookie season.

56:36Robert Mays: The other thing that I really appreciated about watching them, and I think this was partially just the design of the offense, but the ball was coming out so quick with them the entire season. He had the fourth fastest time to throw in the league, and it was Rodgers to a rattler with a three ahead of him. And for Rodgers and Tua specifically, that is a bad stat. For Shuck, I don't think it's a bad stat. I think that is a sign that he's getting rid of the ball really fast. And the other kind of team-wide offense stat that really stuck out to me is when you watch them pick up pressures last year, even with some concerns personnel-wise along the offensive line, your backup center's in there, your left guard you want to replace is in there, they were 31st in the NFL last year in unblocked pressure rate allowed.

57:20Robert Mays: And when you watch them, you could really see that. Like, the offense as an operation, I just felt was very buttoned up, it was dynamic, it was creative, they're putting guys in the right spots, and I think adding the skill sets that they added really does have a chance to supercharge this thing even like oscar delp because i think with tyson and alave even adding those two guys the skill set within this offense that they don't really have right now is just an athletic guy to spit the ball out to and like they were doing that with joan johnson that's not what joan johnson is joan johnson's like a seam running type of player so using oscar delp on like slide routes designed underneath touches.

57:59Robert Mays: We're going to boot. We're going to come back around on the other side. We're going to dump it off to him after he seals the edge for a second. Just some yak option that's a dynamic athlete. I think you can do that with a tight end, and I think he profiles as that. So every little thing they were missing when I went back and watched them seemed to be something that they addressed this offseason, and it just leaves me feeling very excited about what they could potentially look like. And a lot of what we've just said is subjective, right? Like how we feel about watching him play and all this stuff.

58:28To make the objective case for why it's easy to be excited about what he did last year, rookie success rate, last 10 years, minimum 300 attempts. There are, I think, eight guys on this list that were above a 45 % success rate as a rookie. Dak Prescott, Mac Jones, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow, Jaden Daniels, CJ Stroud, Baker Mayfield, Tyler Shuck, and Drake May. Half of those quarterbacks are extremely good, and even the worst ones are like, could probably still be NFL starting quarterbacks. Like Mac Jones is probably the worst guy there and he probably still is like NFL starting quality player. Like the baseline here is very, very high for what he put together.

59:06Robert Mays: Yeah. And I really it's funny because it there's nothing overly exciting about his game. Like there's a very boring kind of good. Yeah, it really doesn't jump off the screen at all. And so when you compare it to Cam Ward, like stylistically, Cam Ward is just so much more exciting as a player in the way that he approaches the position. but that didn't diminish how much I enjoyed watching him play. It was just this kind of strange thing where it was kind of boring. It was just kind of like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, consistently making the right decisions. But I got so much more joy out of it than I expected to going into it.

59:42And so I think it just says a lot about a lot of the positives that he brought

59:47Robert Mays: to the position last year and what those potentially look like moving forward. All right, let's dig into Shadour Sanders here. I don't think we have to spend as much time on this for the reason that you said earlier. These other three guys, they're their starters for their team. They're unquestioned. They're going into the year as the starter. The fact that Shadour is even in a competition with Deshaun Watson to get this job, I think kind of speaks to where he is compared to these other three and how he should be grouped. But when you went back and watched Shadour from last year, what stood out to you?

1:00:17I mean, I think the numbers will tell you this, but I think your eyes would too when you watch him. I think he is the furthest away of these four from even reasonably being like a good NFL starting quarterback. Like, even if I think it's a small window for a guy like Jackson Dart, I think I can at least see more of the path because I think the talent is there and there were at least enough good things for me to hold on to. I think with Shader Sanders, I just really struggled to get some of his worst habits out of my head. Like he is a player who we talked about this even coming in, really loves to hold on to the ball and create his own pressures, which can be OK long term.

1:00:54If you are more of a guy like Russell Wilson, even, you know, I made this excuse for Cam Ward or Deshaun Watson. But I just do not feel like Sanders is quite that level of of athlete. And so I think that that hurts him. And then arm talent wise, I think it takes him a long time to load. And I think he's probably average NFL arm at best, like in the Purdy range. And again, Purdy is a good comparison because if we're saying they have the same level of arm, but it comes out so much faster and quicker mechanically for Purdy, it's like, well, you can get away with it living that way. I think with Sanders, I had some more questions about that.

1:01:25And so that's where it was hard for me. Purdy is also a better athlete. He is a better athlete, much better athlete. Yes.

1:01:31Robert Mays: And Shadour, honestly, was a more capable scrambler in the NFL than I expected him to be. coming into the league. Like, there are more positive scrambles on his tape than I even expected there to be, but that doesn't mean he's as good of an athlete as he needs to be to justify the way that he's playing. It's the exact same thing we said about Cam Ward. Like, if you're gonna hang out of the ball, there needs to be really good things waiting on the other side. And his skill set overall is diminished to the point where you can't even tell yourself that story. Like, there's no way to justify how long he's hanging onto the ball because as both a thrower and a runner, there isn't enough creatively for you to feel okay with that being the way that his internal clock works and the scrambling thing even that it's almost like a survivorship bias thing where like his plays where he actually does get away from someone in the pocket initially he's actually he's not slow when he can stride like when he actually has room and can actually like get those long legs going like he actually is pretty effective it's getting it's almost like a Derrick Henry thing, right?

1:02:33Like where we always joke, it's like Derrick Henry needs five steps to really be effective. Jader Sanders is a little bit like that as a scrambler. And so there are just so many of these plays that end up dead in the water immediately. But if he can get away from them, he's actually fine. And so I think that that bleeds into it a little bit. Some of the things that I think he does well to at least kind of paint the picture of, I think he's more than capable of being a player who will stick around as like a backup, but like for sure, because he's accurate enough. And it's not just that he's accurate enough.

1:02:59I think especially throwing some of those more like moving target throws over the middle where it's a lot of like the shallow, some of the slants that he's throwing, like dig routes. I think he's okay at those. And then I think he is just willing to make throws over the middle of the field. And so if we assume that he's just going to get some more reps over the next two years and he's honing in his anticipation and timing a little bit better, he's talented enough as a thrower to like run a capable offense doing that. I just think the runway to getting him there, it's, you're probably not going to be able to do it with him as a starting quarterback.

1:03:28Like those are reps that he's going to need to take as a backup and learn some of that stuff.

1:03:32Robert Mays: It's just such a narrow path that it makes way more sense as a backup. And I think, again, he's talented enough as a thrower and accurate enough as a thrower and willing to access enough areas of the field where if your starter goes down, you need to win a game two years from now when he has a little bit more seasoning. I think he could do that for you. But I think overall, the package of traits is just not where it needs to be. The most concerning thing to me is he's not a good athlete. He holds onto the ball a little bit too long. And he's not an ambitious thrower. Like if you're going to be a guy who has to play from the pocket and doesn't have high end traits, you need to be able to try to access every single window that you can.

1:04:08Robert Mays: He's not an ambitious thrower. Among all the quarterbacks in the league last year, he was 43rd among 45 guys in the percentage of his throws that went to the sticks. And so if you're not going to have tools and you're going to play the game that way, You just have such a limited ceiling. And so I just don't really see what the path forward for him looks like as a starter. But I'm 100 % with you where I think he can be a capable backup for a long time. And I think a backup that's worth hanging on to. Right. And it's like, I think either way, what he's going to have to learn is he either commits to the style that he's playing, which is totally fine if he wants to do that, where holding onto the ball a little bit more.

1:04:45I want to throw some of these, you know, those second layer throws, 12 to 20 yard range and just get good at anticipating those, good at throwing those. I think that's going to take a little bit of seasoning on the bench. Or he becomes a player who kind of plays more to what his skill set is in terms of his physical tools, which is, hey, I'm going to actually get to my checkdowns more. And I'm going to try to just be accurate, short, and really try to move the offense that way. But that's just never really how he's played the sport. And so even that would take probably a couple of years of seasoning and change for him to get there.

1:05:15Robert Mays: I think a big, really important difference, talking about Cam Ward and talking about Shadour Sanders. Cam Ward took a lot of sacks and held on to the ball too long. Cam Ward doesn't look uncomfortable in the pocket. Shadour looks uncomfortable in the pocket. And that to me is the biggest concern here is that he looks skittish. He looks panicky. He doesn't have a plan. So it's the combination of not knowing how to navigate that space combined with holding on to the ball too long. If you're going to look skittish in the pocket and not be an ambitious thrower. Those two things are just, they can't coexist.

1:05:47Robert Mays: If you're going to be a starting quarterback in the NFL, which is not possible. Yeah. It's really, really hard to live that way. All right. That is all we've got with the 2025 rookie quarterback class. We'll be back with, I think four more of these lingering questions shows, right? Four more, four a week, all the way up to, for July 1st. Love doing them. If honestly, if you guys have any lingering questions from last season that are of interest to you. We've got a collection of them that we feel pretty good about, but I can be convinced to maybe hit some other stuff. We can make a Discord channel.

1:06:21Scott, make a Discord channel. Lingering questions.

1:06:23Robert Mays: Just stuff that like, so for example, right, one of the ones that we're going to do next week probably is that we have this understanding of the Cowboys offense where if they fix the defense, they can win the Super Bowl. And they did nothing to add to the offense this year. It's the exact same group of players as it will be. Well, the lingering question I have is, is the Cowboys offense good enough for us to be talking about them this way? Like they didn't do anything. Like, is that a Super Bowl caliber offense? Are they ready to go? And we watched the Cowboys for a decent chunk of last year. I watched a lot of Cowboys football.

1:06:52Robert Mays: I don't think we watched enough of them at the end of last year to feel like we have a definitive answer about that. At least I don't. And so that's what we're going to do. We're going to go back. We're going to watch the Cowboys offense from last season and we're going to try to come up with an answer. So if you guys have stuff kind of in that vein, you know, what really happened to CJ Stroud? Like just that kind of stuff. Just let us know. Because again, I have, we have a collection of stuff that we feel good about, but I am not married to any of it necessarily. A better idea will always win out.

1:07:18Except for the Cowboys offense. Except for the Cowboys offense.

1:07:20Robert Mays: That one will happen. But then if we have a few others that I do feel a little bit more attached to, but we are certainly open to suggestions. For now, that is all we got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

1:08:10Robert Mays: That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com. Go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk-free for 60 days. Ever been at the checkout wishing you had more cash to spend? You're watching the total climb, doing mental math, getting ready to put your favorite yogurt back. It's the worst. Clio lets you access an up to$250 cash advance fast, so you can cover your groceries without the panic. No interest, no credit checks, just simple, flexible repayment. Get up to$250 with Clio and keep grocery shopping stress-free. Depending on eligibility, you can get up to a$250 cash advance.

1:08:49Robert Mays: Terms and conditions apply. Parles-tu français? Hablas espanol? Parli italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply.