Who is the best true utility player in the NFL?

0:00It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one you can set, earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can. Get this. Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms at discover.com slash credit card.

0:23Robert Mays: When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done. Hey, everybody. This is Taylor from The Total Soccer Show, and this episode is brought to you by Hotels.com. The summer of soccer is right around the corner, and if you aren't using Hotels.com to book the experience of a lifetime, it's worth asking, why?

1:06As a member, you save up to 20 % on hundreds of thousands of hotels around the world and earn rewards on every single stay, which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. So whether you're following your team across North America this summer or planning a well-earned escape after being glued to football for weeks on end, make sure you book on Hotels.com and start earning rewards. Because when it comes to hotels, it's all in the name Hotels.com.

1:36Robert Mays: Welcome to The Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's another Mailbag Monday here on the podcast. Just quick heads up programming-wise, this is going to be running on Monday. We are not going to have a show tomorrow, but we are going to have a show Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of this week. I'm just going to be getting back from vacation, so a slightly different schedule. And then we're going to be back Monday through Thursday starting next week, the week of June 8th. So just something to keep on your radar. But we're going to have four shows a week, essentially all the way up through training camp.

2:06Robert Mays: A lot of fun stuff that we've got on tap that we've got planned. Our first lingering questions show is this week. So a lot of our favorite offseason content is right around the corner. Today, it was me and Derek answering your mailbag questions. Sincerely appreciate everyone who spent the time to send those in. Another really good batch of them. Let's get to it right now.

2:36All right.

2:37Robert Mays: It's another Mailbag Monday here on the Athletic Football Show. have about 10 or so questions we're going to try to get through today. The first one is from Moose says June 1st is just around the corner. The hypothetical AJ Brown trade is the big thing to keep an eye on. But what other trades or cuts is the league watching for? Who, what names run your shortlist here? I don't think there's that many. I don't feel like Brandon. I use is obviously, I think the name that is probably going to, to be biggest that people are looking for. I think there are a couple of those younger quarterbacks that are like either you know trade candidates or have clearly been pushed out of their starting role Anthony Richardson Spencer Rattler but I feel like we've already given those a lot of air Keon Coleman is maybe still on the board for some teams if the bills are kind of done with that and Joe Brady wants to kind of be in a different era as he takes things over but I didn't have that many like new or interesting names that we haven't already talked about two I would throw out there we actually mentioned him earlier this month when we were talking about the Jags just in terms of how weird their offensive line resource allocation was Walker little I throw out there just have a team like all right we we need just a playable guy at tackle and at this point he's a very expensive swing tackle potentially for the Jags and the other one I throw out last year of his contract obviously this team a lot of urgency right now and so I think this would be something that happened maybe deeper into the season maybe around the trade deadline Deron Payne is another one I would throw out there.

4:03Robert Mays: He's in the final year of his deal. And so let's just say Washington season is middling, forgettable. They get to the midway point. They don't have playoff aspirations. Is it worth getting something for him right now? So those are the two that I had other than Anthony Richardson. That's an interesting one because Walker Little is like you do that because you need a bandaid, kind of like how Cam Robinson got traded for a year or two ago. That feels more like that's what that is. Deron Payne, I do think at his best, is a difference maker for you. And so So if there's a team around week five or six, like that could make sense.

4:34Yeah.

4:35Robert Mays: Right now, I think that Washington needs to win. I think that for them right now, he's more if they're two and four. Yeah. I think that's the moment where maybe the line of thinking starts to become a little bit different. Next one here from Ruben Clay. Is there anyone that might be this year's John Harbaugh, a coach GM quarterback who seems an average standing to even good standing that could be fired or on a different team by the end of the season? i think the two coaches that i would probably put here are both in the nfc north and i think that that is not a coincidence i think matt lafleur and kevin o 'connell are both like there's a chance that i think we both think that they are good at their job but i think matt lafleur that he got turned up a little bit last off or last year and obviously he was able to keep the job and then kevin o 'connell is just in a weird spot with where the roster is having to change over quarterbacks and all that stuff.

5:27And so to me, it's not just that dynamic of that with them. It's that the NFC North is such a bloodbath that one of these teams is probably bound to win eight games and be a fourth place team. Not necessarily the Packers or the Vikings, but like someone in that division will have that fate. And there's a decent chance that it's the Packers or some of the step backs that they've taken. Maybe the, you know, maybe defensive regression comes for the Vikings a little bit and Kyler Murray isn't as good as they want. And they only win eight games and they kind of have that fate. And so I would say those two guys, and they're in a similar situation to me where Mike McDaniel was, where I still think that he would be getting head coaching interviews and he would still be a hot candidate.

6:07Maybe takes a year or two to be an offensive play caller before being a head coach again.

6:12Robert Mays: Two things with that. One, Matt Wilfler just got a contract extension. Just got one. I get, yeah. And so that to me feels like we're probably in a spot where they're not going to want to pay him And a new coach after just giving him that contract extension. It happens. Right. But I just can't imagine the Packers are in a spot where they would want to do that. I think he probably gets another year unless this is like a total disaster with O 'Connell. I agree that it's an inflection point for the organization. But my read on it and just my assumption is that with the current setup, the fact that he's entrenched and they're about to hire a new GM.

6:53Robert Mays: I think he's probably consolidated more power there than he's lost, even if the team is at this kind of like strange inflection point. So for both of those, I think there might be like outside dynamics not related to the wins and losses or the product on the field that would insulate each of them from like a true downturn, no matter how the season goes. i i think that that is because of the contract extension probably more true of lafleur o 'connell i i think there is a world where things just don't look very good for that team and i think i think that's right but how bad would it have to look for him to get fired six wins and like the 20th best offense in the league i think like that and i don't think that that's like off the table for that team i think they'll probably be better than that but like Like there's a chance that because the NFC North is a bloodbath, one team just gets the short end of the stick.

7:51Robert Mays: I actually like this. I don't think it'll happen. No, but I think if you have to, yes, that hypothetical and just thinking about what it would mean, especially on the heels of last year, where so now we have two years in a row where he is not this guy who could just kind of like wave the magic wand and fix everything. Now, what does that conversation look like? I like that. I actually think that's good. We play it out a step further. right the entire die like narrative around sam darnold and how this was the only scenario where sam darnold could get fixed and then you watch sam darnold win a super bowl the following year so does that maybe retcon that season on top of what this year and last year looked like all right i can get there i can get there i i think it's still like a remote possibility but i think that's a good one it is yeah i'm not this is not the timeline that i am betting on happening but again if we're picking a coach that we do think highly of and are having to try to find where is that scenario where things fall out like I know that like people were getting frustrated with the Harbaugh era going into this year but I think most people thought that that Ravens team was going to win 12 games and be like one of the best teams in the NFL again like we didn't foresee it going the way it did and so again if I'm having to pick a team that a team and a coach that I do think are good and can be good but you can see how things would fall out a little bit that's probably the one where I'm landing there are a couple really spicy ones where it's like I don't have a good reason for believing this but can I concoct a scenario in my mind where we're having like a difficult conversation by the end of the season who do you got what if Davis Webb is just like a killer play caller for the Broncos and we get to the end of the year and people are kind of like you know what like sean payton's rubbing people the wrong way like it so that's the only reason i can buy that it's because the vibes sometimes are kind of weird there that's one where again that's like i don't expect that to happen but if i'm throwing out just like random names and being wildly irresponsible that might be one i would say for quarterbacks i the two guys i would say that i think at times over the last couple years their start their stars have shined pretty brightly i could come up with a scenario where both of them are on new teams next year baker mayfield and jalen hurts yeah i think jalen hurts is the easy one and then baker mayfield i think is absolutely up there i think that there are a couple that are more stretches like things would really have to go south like again this is not a world that i would bet on but like if things just go horribly horribly wrong for the lions and they feel like they can reset i don't think that that would happen but like it's happened to him before but i think the easiest that you would probably bet on are hurts and mayfield the lions could easily trade jared golf next year if they wanted to if they traded him before june one it'd be 30 million dollars in dead money has he has a 63 million dollar cap it they would say 33 million not that bad they'd save 30 million dollars if they traded jared goff whether another team would want to take on oh man that's actually a good one there's no way this would ever happen let's just say in this hypothetical jared goff like people didn't like him and he was not part of like an all-time turnaround for a franchise but it's just like purely on like a football level if we got if the offense was disappointing enough i jared goff would be an interesting one because i do think there would be teams that would trade for 40 million dollars of jared goff if they were in a tight spot i absolutely think that 100 but there's there's no way the lions would ever trade and i don't think they should like i don't either interpersonal reasons and where they are in their team build all of that stuff i i don't think they should but that's one that at least like again 63 million dollar cap hit he's gonna be 33 years old in 2027 they can save 30 million dollars if they did it that one is at least worth throwing out there but i just i can't ever imagine a scenario or what that scenario would look like where the lions would be willing to move on from him again just because he's been he's beloved there like he is such such a central figure in like what they're doing all right jason says you get to make a modern defense from scratch but you still have to abide by all the constraints of team building.

11:56Robert Mays: In your ideal defense, what position does your slot player play when you're not in nickel? Is he off the field? Is he a safety like Kyle Hamilton? Does he bump inside like Cooper DeGene? Or does he play a little bit more in the box like Nicky Manwari? What is your answer to this? So I'm tempted to say safety like Kyle Hamilton because I do think when you're in base, being able to do whatever you want with your safeties, I do think that there's a lot of value in that. I think I ultimately ended up with the bump outside like Cooper Dejean and Devin Witherspoon. And the reason being is that safeties in general, and this is not obviously true, there are a lot of safeties who are dog shit tacklers.

12:36In general, I trust them to be a little bit better tacklers and be more physical and all that stuff. I don't always trust outside corners to be that. And so if I can guarantee that my guy who is like a dog at the nickel and then is going to be pushed outside and he's giving me a lot of good tackling and stuff on the outside, I kind of like that. Maybe I'm just colored by like, I just love the way that Devin Witherspoon plays, but I think I might lean there.

13:00Robert Mays: Took this in a slightly different direction in that I, my thought was in an ideal scenario, where would that player be very good at two positions? Right. So like if I Cooper, Cooper Jean specifically, like Cooper Jean can play outside. He is not a high level outside corner. I think it is most likely in all three of these that are presented that you can have a high level player in two different spots. If your safety is walking down and playing nickel when you're in nickel. Does that make sense? I think that does make sense. But like, I think that is getting like very specific to these players. If that makes sense.

13:41Like I think Devin Witherspoon is like a very, very good outside cornerback. Not as good as Kyle Hamilton is good as both of those spots. That's kind of what I mean, though.

13:49Robert Mays: I think the path is easiest for me to imagine for a player being an elite nickel and an elite safety. I don't think an elite nickel can be an elite linebacker or is likely going to be an elite outside corner. But at safety, I think you can do both. Because nickel and safety is a little bit more analogous to each other. And the overlap in what you're just asked to do on a given play is a little bit more. So you know what? I think that actually probably is the answer. Yeah, my instinct was safety. And I think, yeah, like linebacker, like you're getting by outside corner. You're getting by like for the most part at safety.

14:24Robert Mays: I don't think you have to get by. And so if we're again, building it from scratch, I think that's where I sit with it. Yeah, I think that probably is the answer. All right, before we move on, let's take our first quick break. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. For some, summer is their favorite season. Travel picks up, kids are out of school, and adventure is the focus. For others, juggling it all can be tough and can lead to them feeling overwhelmed and counting down the minutes until the kids are back in school. And many worry they're wasting days of sunshine. Luckily for me, I'm in the former group.

14:55Summer is absolutely my favorite season. Love going to the pool, love going to the beach, love doing everything that summer entails. But one thing that I think is important is that my wife and I make sure to make time for ourselves. Yes, we definitely pour into our kids. We make sure that they're getting the best experience they can. but then we also maybe go to a baseball game. We also stay up late in our backyard after the kids are asleep and really enjoy summer for ourselves in addition to enjoying it with them. Therapy can help people better understand their needs, feel more confident setting boundaries and create a version of summer that actually feels good.

15:28With more than 30 ,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform having served more than 6 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12-plus years of experience and industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time.

15:58If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. You don't have to say yes to everything this summer. Find support in therapy. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash Mays. That's BetterHelp.com slash Mays.

16:37To make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms at discover.com slash credit card.

16:43Robert Mays: When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

17:18Robert Mays: All right, this next question is completely unhinged, and I did answer it, but I'm not sure if you did, but we're going to do it anyway. Natan Gorin says, In a hypothetical world, if all 22 starting players on your team had to be a different age, how would you split it up? So the ages that we're doing here are ages 20 through 41, right? That's 22 players. That's the only like realistic stretch you would have. So I started backwards because my thought was, where would you want the 41 and 40 year old players?

17:57Like a quarterback, I guess, but here's the thing. It's too old for quarterback. People are going to say quarterback is like, oh, Brady did it. And that's like two people in the history of the NFL. Like, it's a terrible way of thinking about it. I think like D-line is probably the answer.

18:12Robert Mays: Interior defensive lineman was my 41-year-old player. That's like you can get by, right? Like, Calais Campbell, two years from now, you could get by with that sort of player. So my 41-year-old player was an interior defensive lineman. 40, I would, 39 and 41 were interior defensive linemen. Both of them. It's just like, those are the guys that have to move the least. Like if I have big body players, I can just stick them there. And especially in the modern NFL, where we're really just trying to eat up and destroy blocks. Like just give me two big old boys and stick them in the middle of my defensive line.

18:45Robert Mays: I had a 40 year old center. Like I think in theory, you could get by with a 40 year old center. You could live with that. 38 was my quarterback. That probably right is bumping on the line of like, they're not too old yet. I think that probably is the answer. And we could swap a few of these around. Like I had guard at 37. So if you wanted the quarterback to be there, but I think that to me is like an important cutoff is like after age 35, I think you could get by with one edge. Who's like 36. Oh, definitely. I think you want one who's like younger, you know, 25 years old or whatever it is. I don't know exactly what number you put.

19:20And then one just like your Zedarius Smith, who's like 35, 36 years old.

19:24Robert Mays: I had a 36 year old edge and a 21 year old edge. That was the two that I had. One 36-year-old, one 21-year-old. 34-year-old. I had a 35-year-old corner. I think you can get by with one corner who is just like, I've seen a million things. We're playing a ton of zone. So how old are your safeties? 34 and 30. Okay. If you want to make the corner 34 and the safety 35, that's acceptable. But it's, yeah, it's kind of the same. I think you can get by with one DB each. That's a little bit of an older player. I had my linebackers as 32 and 33 because I don't think you want the linebackers to be too old but they also don't want to be too young because that position takes a while to develop so I think two linebackers in their early 30s was a good way to do it I I think I agree but I think there are fewer guys who can run at 32 and 33 at that position than we probably think I don't think think there's that many of them.

20:23Robert Mays: Who would you put at 32 and 33 then? Because I don't think you want your offensive tackle. Maybe offensive tackle. How old is your oldest receiver? Yeah, offensive tackle is a good one. How old is your oldest receiver? 27. Oh, I'd want my oldest receiver older than that. I think you can get by with like one 30-year-old, 31-year-old. And he doesn't have to be our star. I want one of my receivers to be like 20. The cliff comes fast for the receivers but i would rather have that be my wide receiver three than my like every down linebacker i think how old is the linebacker he's the only guy he's 37 he's the cheat code i'd be curious to go back and look at how many productive 33 year old linebackers there are because i think sometimes we're thinking about the old guys like levante david was 35 last year so if we're if we're going three years further back i think there are more guys 32 33 was probably his last year i think survive but i i'm i guess i'm too i'm trying to think of like the average player at that at that age but i guess i guess most guys at most positions just don't last till 35 36 all right so what if we did this what if one of my but see i i don't know if there's any other good answers because I don't want both corners to be old.

21:41Robert Mays: My second corner is 28, which I think is right. That's fine. I had a 29-year-old tight end. I don't think I want a tight end that's 33 years old. And I don't know if I want tackles that are that old. See, I think depending on how the receiver core is shaped out, I think you could kind of just take a tight end who's a little bit older. He's our check down guy. He's just old, reliable, and we can get by here. depending on how the receiving corn running back shakes out. See, I think I want to be right in the heart of the development curve at tight end. Like 28, 29, second contract, first year. You're trying to maximize these skill players with the 27-year-old oldest, and I think that's fair.

22:24Robert Mays: I don't know. Would you rather have a 32-year-old receiver or a 32-year-old off-ball linebacker? Well, it depends. Are they my number one receiver, or are they my... the starting linebacker i think it depends all right okay all right i guess that's fair okay let's make one of the linebackers 27 and we'll make one of the receivers 31 i think that's fair yeah and then one of the offensive tackles the offensive tackle will be two years old the off tackle be 32 i think that's good i think that's good the 31 is my oldest receiver there's plenty of 31 year old receivers that that make it just give you six five six hundred yards like again this doesn't have to yeah that age cliff at 30 worries me but 31 i think we can get by with my second offensive tackle was 26 i had receivers that were 24 and 25 i had one very young guard i just like i didn't know where to i didn't want the receivers to be super young i didn't want my like yeah babies yeah that makes sense my my second corner is 28 like i don't want a rookie corner a guy like that's one i had a 22 year old nickel because it's a very specific position right like if i could just drop nick him even worry in there and that's all he does i can get by there and then my running back was 20 that probably is the spot man i'm trying to think i'm just thinking like if you had one if you had an edge rusher that was just like a demon and it was 21 and you're just like i'm just letting you loose buddy like you can live with that i think i think you can live with just a pure juice guy as a 21 year old player that that guard at that 23 year old guard i'm sure there's a way to actually maximize that no i think that's fine yeah i i think the 23 year old guard is fine you think the corners could be younger i think if you flip the guard in the 28 year old corner maybe that is the answer that probably makes more sense yeah that might be the answer let's make 20 because 28 too with corners is like the cliff can come for those guys pretty fast like 27 i just wanted somebody that wasn't super green.

24:24Robert Mays: Like I didn't want somebody that was super young and raw. But if one of my other corners is going to be 25, having somebody with some giddy up at that other spot that can really run and is 23, that's probably the right answer. So we'll put the second guard as 28. All right. So 20-year-old running back, 21-year-old edge rusher, 22-year-old nickel, 23-year-old corner, 24 - and 25-year-old receivers, 26-year-old offensive tackle, 27-year-old linebacker, 28-year-old guard, 29-year-old tight end, 30-year-old safety, 31 year old wide receiver 32 offensive tackle 33 liebacker 34 safety 34 corner 36 edge 37 guard 38 quarterback 39 and 41 interior defensive lineman 40 year old center i think that's right we solved i think that's as good as we're gonna get yeah i actually think that that's pretty damn good i spent i spent a lot of time see i i figured that was gonna take a lot of time and i was like i'll just let him figure this out and i'll see if i can like pull him in a couple different directions it's just like i was actually on the train going out to the burbs to get my car at the uh at the body shop i had my tires replaced and so i was like i don't know i was on the train and i looked at this question i was like oh it's a pretty in-depth question and then i started thinking about it for like 30 seconds and i'm like i'm into it now like what else am i gonna do for an hour on the train yeah i'm into it so no i uh that one sucked me in for sure all right next one here Seth says on a recent episode, Derek mentioned the value of having a player who's a C plus at multiple positions.

25:51Robert Mays: It got me thinking who is the best true utility player in the league right now. I'm talking about the guys who are good at multiple positions, but elite nowhere. The DB who can slide between safety and nickel, the wide receiver who can play XZ and slot without a drop off, even if they aren't a pro bowler at any of them. I had two guys that I landed on here. One offense, one defense. Who were your answers? Yeah, I had a few. I think if we're doing receiver, I think the answer is Jacoby Myers. Yep. My exact answer. Can play him anywhere and he could probably get you a thousand yards. It's not going to be 1600 yards, but he can give you a thousand yards just about anywhere.

26:29That was my offensive answer was Jacoby Myers. Who did you have for defense then? Quentin Lake. Quentin Lake is a good one. See, I think the answer almost has to be a DB where it's a guy who can play a little bit of everything. What else would it be?

26:42Robert Mays: like like because the closest I got on passing downs is like that's not a real utility player you're not really playing two different positions the closest I got was like Andrew Van Ginkle where it's like he's an edge player but they use him in so many different ways and like he can be off the ball Leo Chennault is a little bit of that too like some of those guys those are good ones the line the linebackers that play off ball and on the line of scrimmage for real those are def Those are definitely good answers. I like both of those. And then the DB I had actually was Kobe Bryant because he, I think, can do a little bit of everything.

27:19I do think he's probably too good, but he was a corner in college, too. So I do think like in emergency snaps, he could just play outside corner for you. So that was probably my guess, but I would say he's maybe too good.

27:29Robert Mays: I think, yeah, limiting it to like two-ish positions is probably right. And so Quentin Lake, I think, he can easily play. I mean, he played nickel for most of last year. He was their nickel, but he's played plenty of safety and can play safety. And then Jacoby Myers is truly one of those guys that can play all three. I mean, you look at the split of his snaps even from last year. It's very evenly split. Like he plays plenty in the slot and is more than viable outside. And so I think the fact that both of us landed on Jacoby Myers, I think, is very telling. He's just the easy one because it's like he's not the only player that I think you can be like X, Y, Z, and he's the best.

28:03Like, I think Devontae Smith can do this. But also Devontae Smith is like a knocking on the door of all pros if he wants to. Like, Jacoby Myers is not quite that level of player. He truly is like the perfect utility guy.

28:14Robert Mays: Next one here from Luke Krigschild. He said, when you guys were talking about the dearth of linebackers when ranking divisional position groups on May 11th, it made me think about watching middle linebackers like Urlacher, Ray Lewis, et cetera. Yes, I was born in 1990. And I wonder where guys like that or with that body type would play now. do they flip the tight end in high school and college or fill out and play edge what do we make of this where would ray lewis and brian urlacher play right now so urlacher was a converted safety and then just got bigger which actually is funny that we just had this with sunny styles who did the same thing so maybe maybe they're having a little bit of a comeback ray lewis i think specifically is a little bit different ray lewis was 6-1 what the hell else was he gonna play You know, I think for both of them, my answer is why can't they just play linebacker?

29:00Right. And so I think that's great because I think the real answer is not necessarily that guys are playing different positions now. Maybe some of them are like the 6 '4 guys are just playing more edge than they used to or more tight end. I just think that now a lot of these guys are just not as heavy as they used to be. Like Brian Urlacher was probably playing at 255 or whatever it is. I think now it wouldn't be more than 245 probably. And same thing for Ray Lewis, like he would probably just be they would ask him to probably be 10 pounds lighter than whatever he was playing at the time, because I think just the box constraints were a little bit different.

29:34The sport was different. Even how the college game was operating and what those guys were asked to be from a young age, I think was different. And so that to me is, I think what it is, is it's not necessarily that these guys are playing different positions on the field. It's just that the position of a linebacker is different than it was 20 years ago.

29:51Robert Mays: Yeah, I think everyone would be a little bit smaller. But at the same time, like you just said, Brian Urlacher was a converted safety. Just because Brian Urlacher weighed 255, the Bears played a ton of Tampa 2 early in Brian Urlacher's career. He was the pole runner in Tampa 2 at 255 pounds. Brian Urlacher really didn't have any problems. But Brian Urlacher's limitations as a player weren't that he couldn't move. Brian Urlacher ran 4.59 at 258 pounds. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. And I think actually another good player here for what we're kind of talking about and how the body types are different, Fred Warner is 6 '3", 230.

30:33And so he is what the modern linebacker looks like. But if he came out 20 years ago, he might be closer to 6 '3", 245 just because of what they were asking him to be at that position.

30:43Robert Mays: Yeah, Urlacher was 258 at the combine. Jesus Christ. And he ran a 4.59 at 2.58. They just don't make a lot of those guys. They just don't make a lot of those guys. And that's why, like, I want to get that across as we're having this discussion. It's like, he's an all-time freak. He absolutely could still play linebacker in the modern NFL if he, like, changed his body to fit the modern game in a more intentional way than he would have 20 years ago. But I think in a lot of ways, Brian Urlacher would be an incredible off-ball linebacker in today's NFL if you asked him to do all the things he could do back then.

31:20100%. He would be absolutely lights out.

31:23Robert Mays: That's one. The end of the Brian Urlacher, the last bad mailbag we did, what breakups or what players moving on were tough for you, the end of the Brian Urlacher era was definitely a sad moment. Those were fun, fun years when he was playing at his best. The year where he broke his wrist was horrible. It was devastating. It was just like, this sucks. So he was definitely one where it was tough when that guy moved on. Next one here from Andrew Bayer said in recent years, draft coverage has been more open about acknowledging uncertainty around prospect evaluation and how that uncertainty should affect both the ways teams approach the draft and how analysts should view draft classes.

32:02Robert Mays: Should we adopt a similar intellectual humility when it comes to evaluating unproven head coaching hires? A lot of genuinely outstanding coordinators have taken the big chair and flopped comprehensively. But we still see, say, universal praise for the Ravens knocking it out of the park by hiring Jesse Minter, even though at this time last year a lot of very smart, very reasonable people were praising Aaron Glenn as a brilliant defensive mind and charismatic leader of men. I have nothing against Minter, but when it comes to first-time head coaches, shouldn't we be more willing to say who the heck knows?

32:34so here's i want to start by saying i think that approach to draft coverage sucks because it's not our job to draft the players i think from the team's perspective that is how they should operate they should be a little bit more heavy on like consensus boards and really making sure that you have enough bites at the apple and all that stuff and and whatever you want to say but like our job is to be entertaining and like to have takes on these players and like really stand on stuff so I hate that in terms of draft coverage. What I will say about how this spins forward to the coaches, I do think, I still think that we should be excited about certain coaches, right?

33:09Like, I'm excited about Jesse Minter and, you know, Liam Cullen last year and, you know, some of these sorts of guys. I will say, though, I think I am now a little bit more open to being surprised on coaching hires I didn't necessarily love. Like, when Brian Schottenheimer is going to be the example, like, when he got promoted, I was like, man, what the f*** is Dallas doing? Like, this just doesn't seem like it's an inspiring hire. And then he surprises me. And that team is awesome. I think even Kellen Moore with the Saints last year, where I was just like, I don't know if I hate this, but this just kind of feels milquetoast.

33:40And I don't really know if this is going to do anything. And then it was like, by the end of the year, it was like, oh, their offense has kind of come together. They found new answers. The quarterback that they drafted has a little bit of something. And so I would still say it's if we want to be excited about certain coaches, that's important. And Robert, you've talked about like when teams have these X factors, it's new coaches coming in that are a little bit uncertain. And so I still think it's important to value that a little bit. But I would say the lesson I've learned here is like, let yourself be surprised by some of the hires you don't necessarily love.

34:11Robert Mays: The answer to this, the idea of treating coaching hires with like, we really don't know is we should do that. And I think I've been much more open to doing that recently. I think for me, the main lesson I learned, I think the most important lesson I learned over the last five, six years with this was the Brandon Staley thing. Where it was like, even if I thought that those Rams defenses were really good, that Brandon Staley did a very good job with those Rams defenses, you just never know. And I think almost to a man, when these hires have happened, I do couch most of them with, I would do this if I was in this position.

34:51Robert Mays: I don't know if it's going to work like this. All of these are there are a series of bets. And I think that we can talk about it in the terms of this is the bet I would make if I was in this position as a team hiring a head coach. And it's just not fun to say that every single time. Right. But that's the thing. I just we shouldn't have to like couch every single take that we have with like, well, we still don't know. It's like just say the thing you want to say. And I think as long as we understand in the background that we don't know who's going to be good and who's not, I'm more than willing to admit that.

35:24Robert Mays: I think I say it often enough. Like, there's no way to know who's going. These jobs are so different. They have such different demands on them to a degree. And we can talk about that in a second. But I think overall, there's always a little bit of uncertainty. The Christian Parker thing is a good example of this. I have no idea if he's going to be a good defensive coordinator. He's never done it before. And moving from a passing game coordinator role, having a very silo job within what your touch points are in the building, what your purview is every single day, the amount of people you manage.

36:01Robert Mays: Like, there are so many different layers to this. I've talked to a lot of coaches about this recently, and they've been really good discussions about what you do as an offensive coordinator beyond, like, after getting promoted from being a position coach and just what changes. If you're the offensive line coach, you can. sit there and close your door for 12 hours and just watch tape. Draw up cool shit. That's your job. What a life. You can do that all day. If you're the offensive coordinator, you don't get to do that anymore. You got 12 people that you now manage. Think about your own job. Think about going from somebody who is just your scope every single day is just your work, getting it done, putting it on your manager's desk, you go home.

36:41Robert Mays: And then think about being promoted into a managerial role where you're now managing a dozen people. They're vastly different jobs, even if some of the skill set carries over and you got promoted because you were good at one of the other ones. It's the same thing here. But I still think that there are certain elements we can attach ourselves to. Like Jesse Minter, again, this being a bet I would make, if you look at what Brandon Staley had with the Rams, and I probably wasn't receptive enough to this in the moment, you can do different stuff with Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey than you can do with almost any other defensive roster that's going to be out there.

37:13Robert Mays: the roster that Jesse Minter has done this with for the Chargers I think it's more it's easier to talk yourself into that sort of multiplication effect and the maximization of your players translating over to another team because you weren't working with like hyper elite players at every single level of the defense when he was with the Chargers and so again if that's I'm willing to talk myself into that being that a bet that is worth making and so I do think they're not all the same, but I absolutely think overall we should have some humility, uncertainty. I don't know if this is going to work hanging in the background, even if I think it would be boring to say that every single time you have a conversation about a coach or a choice, whatever.

37:58I think that's mostly what it is. It's like the presentation. I just don't think that there's a necessity for anybody to say that every single time we talk about things that are inherently

38:07Robert Mays: uncertain if that makes sense the last thing i want to say about this this like him talking about aaron glenn being like a leader of men and that's what we're excited about him as a head coach i'm out on a leader of men stuff for anybody because that is more than anything the part of it we don't know at least with like the scheme and play calling like we can see that boom yeah i'm i'm out the idea that like this guy sounds like a head coach he presents so well he's so good in front of the room, all this shit. You need a certain level of presence and command to the job undeniably, right? Like you need guys who are going to be willing to buy into what you're saying.

38:44Robert Mays: That is important. But I, I just don't, we don't know. We don't know whether that's going to translate. Like Pete Carroll was supposed to be that. Like, I just think that the world we're currently in, I need to see a direct impact you are having on how you're making your players better. And I think that right now, when you look at the way the league is, those are the bets that I think are easiest to make. And I think we're in a spot now. I was talking to a player about this last week. And I think I want to dig more into it because I think it's a really interesting idea. I think in the modern NFL, with these young players that have gotten paid to play football for a very long time, that have been professionals for a very long time, I think you have to be able to demonstrably show them with your coaching how you are going to make them better and make their jobs easier and allow them to make money.

39:37Robert Mays: They respond to that. There is like a very tangible, practical thing. I think the idea of like, I'm going to go in here and I'm going to respect my coach because I'm supposed to respect my coach. I'm not sure that's happening quite as often as it would have when the dynamics between coaches and players were a little bit different than they are now. Right now, I think you have to come in and you have to create buy-in by creating confidence because you're making the players better and making their jobs easier. If you're not doing that, I think you're going to have a harder time being successful as an NFL head coach.

40:09I 100 % agree. Like, I think having a vision and simply finding a way to win games is going to solve like 90 % of whatever your culture problems are going to be. Like, it really seems like it's that simple.

40:21Robert Mays: I think culture is confidence. like I don't think culture is fear and I think that has changed I think that is like a dramatically different thing than it used to be like I think the the ways you're empowering players what that feels like what that sounds like what that looks like the back and forth how much players have what role they have in the process of like why they're doing what they're doing the dialogue that exists between coaches and players I just think that stuff is shifting you know based on conversations I've had with people. And I think that will continue to shift. And so this idea of like, well, he seems like a leader of men.

40:56Robert Mays: If we want to do that with guys like Jim Harbaugh or Mike Vrabel that are retreads that we've seen be successful doing that, I'm more open to that version of it. But these days, like if you're not making a tangible difference in like why your team is better on the chalkboard or on Sunday, I have my doubts about it. I just am not sure we're playing in that world anymore. All right, before we move on, let's take one more quick break.

41:28It's smart to always have a few financial goals and a really smart one you can set, earning cash back on what you buy every day. And with Discover, you can. Get this, Discover automatically matches all the cash back you've earned at the end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. You're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners.

42:03Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering, and 24-7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. Rally caps, lucky socks, never stepping on the foul line. Baseball is full of superstitions we hope give us an edge. But let's be honest, most of it's just luck. That's how I used to feel about hair growth products, until I found Nutrafol, the official hair growth partner of Major League Baseball. It's physician-formulated, clinically tested, and recommended by dermatologists.

42:44An actual game plan for thinning hair. Nutraful has formulas for men at every stage. There's Nutraful Men for guys 18 to 49 to help grow thicker, fuller hair in 3 to 6 months. And Nutraful Men 50 Plus, designed specifically for men 50 and up who want to keep the hair they've got. Go to Nutraful.com, promo code BASEBALL, for$10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutraful is the only hair growth supplement brand trusted by MLB at Nutraful.com. Spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com. Promo code baseball. That's neutrophil.com. Promo code baseball.

43:31Robert Mays: Next one here from Sam McBride. Looking back at the recent Super Bowl winners, they've pretty much all had rookies play an important role. For the Seahawks, Zabel helped stabilize the O-line, even worried allowed the defense to live a nickel. before that, Quinny I mentioned, and Cooper DeGene fixed the Eagles secondary. Rasheed Rice and Trent McDuffie played big roles in the Chiefs back-to-back championships, and Wirfs and Winfield were both immediate contributors for the Bucs. I'm glad he mentioned Wirfs and Winfield in this. Looking at this year's draft, which guys do you think might have that sort of instant impact for a Super Bowl champion?

44:02Robert Mays: In particular, are there any guys who you think could help lift a team not currently at the level to contending status if they hit? I had three teams and like three collections of players one that to me was the most obvious I mean to me the one that stood out the most is like if Dallas their first two guys hit like like Caleb Downs and Malachi Lawrence if they're who you want like that that supercharges everything the offense that's the clearest answer to me that is the clearest answer that one's easy I think another one I had was we've seen the Ravens offense like vacillate depending on how good the offensive line is if Venga you want to is as good as we want him to be like that solves so many issues for that team that was also on my short list i had four those were two of them let's see if we get a third one i had i had i think you could make the case that both of these players are necessary keelan rutledge and kaylin cade mcdonald for the houston texans like if there's another one i had oh my god okay it seems like this is the clear bucket of teams that are like almost true contenders and like this would really get them over the top that's funny who is your fourth one then it is they're the chiefs guys yeah i almost put them there too yeah that that's good those those to me are the clearest ones like dallas kansas city the texans guys and vega you wanted those are the four those exact four examples that i had that is amazing that we literally landed and i think i think i the only reason i didn't end up putting the chiefs guys is there were so many of them and they were all on defense that i was like, I'll just leave it to somebody else.

45:34That's really funny. That is really funny.

45:37Robert Mays: Yeah, I think those are the examples that really stuck out. And I think that Caleb Downs and Malachi Lawrence are the best representations of this. I actually think that in almost all of these scenarios,

45:54Robert Mays: for the Bucs in 2020, yeah, so the Bucs in 2020, and this is like a key, but I think a difference that's worth mentioning. with the Eagles in 2024, that was one, that was year one under Fangio. So it was not just the roster improvements. You had a new coordinator plus the roster improvements, but for the chiefs with McDuffie, that was same, same spags. You just need an injection of talent for the bucks with worse than Winfield. Obviously Brady comes in, but if you look at the roster overall, I got receipts on this. I remember writing in the moment when they drafted those two guys, I was like, those are the last things they needed.

46:33Robert Mays: They needed one tackle and one defensive playmaker in the secondary for this roster to look really, really good with Tom Brady. And then they won the Super Bowl that year. And so I think with what with Dallas, you're changing over the coordinator and you have these players. So I don't think the quality of the roster top to bottom for Dallas's defense is quite as good as like the Eagles were, the Chiefs were, the Bucs were. where like that one guy really made everything else come together. But when you combine it with a new defensive coordinator, potentially, I do think it has the potential to supercharge it in a notable way, even if you're still threading a needle a little bit.

47:12And that is, I think if you're going to put it that way, I actually do think that's why the Houston guys feel like the most analogous to a scenario like that, where it's like that roster is not that far away. I don't feel like. And so like Rutledge and McDonald are who they want in terms of beefing up that team, that could supercharge things, but we'll see. Last one here from Jack Fidane.

47:36Robert Mays: It says, people always talk about how Green Bay effectively redshirts their quarterback in alignment. What about receivers? Is a Matthew Golden year two breakout coming now that they cleared the depth chart in front of him? What do you think about this? I actually do think that Matthew Golden can still be a really good player. I think people have gotten to a point with him and really with young wide receivers at large, where if they are not immediately like a superstar, then we just don't care about them. And I do think in terms of like, if you are not an immediately a superstar, you're not going to be an all pro.

48:07I think that that is probably true, but I think that you can sometimes have these guys where it takes a year or two to be a good player. And I think that Matthew Golden does have that in him. Like, I think there were some flashes towards the back half of the year. I think that he is a guy who I think he can win on a vertical playing pretty well. It's just that offense struggled to do that outside of some of their true play action stuff because the offensive line was not very good. Maybe that won't be the case this year, which is going to be, that's kind of a separate discussion. But I do think that Matthew Golden can be pretty solid for them.

48:37Robert Mays: I agree with you. I think on pretty much every single point, if you're not a breakout player immediately, you're probably never going to hit that top, top tier. I think more and more we're seeing receivers come in. And if you can't break into the starting lineup, it is something to be worried about. It's funny that for this team specifically, this is the team where there are plenty of examples of guys not immediately being stars and then becoming really, really good players. Jordy Nelson in his first year had 33 catches. Okay. Matthew Golden had 29 in his rookie year. Devontae Adams had 38 catches.

49:10Robert Mays: And then we remember what happened with Jordy Nelson and Devontae Adams. So this is to me, probably the best example of a team and a franchise that has consistently shown an ability to develop guys a little bit later in their careers at this position. Well, and even not up to that level, like Romeo Dobbs and Christian Watson were not like the hottest starters. Like it took them a couple years to really like find their level a little bit more in the NFL. And so I think that that could totally happen for him. Like this is a guy where I would feel okay with him kind of having a decent decent career here yeah I'm not willing to give up on Matthew Golden yet I know that the recent trend is like these guys hit immediately but I'm just I'm not willing to give up on Matthew Golden quite yet yeah and again I think that that like the you can probably give up on him being an all-pro but there are there are he could be wide receiver 17 in the NFL and that's still a really good player even if he's not an all-pro I don't know if he's gonna be that good but it's that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make I was trying to look at some other guys that maybe had quieter rookie years than I thought, but it's just a unique scenario where Christian Watson coming back and being as good as Christian Watson was, along with Romeo Dobbs taking that step forward.

50:24Robert Mays: I think about the Matthew Golden thing, and maybe this is giving him a little bit too much grace, but when we talked about why the Packers needed Matthew Golden last year, it was that they needed a guy in that receiving core when it was third and seven, and teams are playing man coverage against you, do you have somebody that can be a winner in those scenarios? I think that's why they drafted Matthew Golden. The thing is, Romeo Dobbs became that player. He filled that role and he was that guy within the offense. And so you have him, you have Christian Watson, you have Jaden Reed, guys that all play very specific roles within the offensive environment that you have built.

51:05Robert Mays: And so even if Matthew Golden can potentially be a good player, he didn't fill any of those roles last year any better than the guys that you already had and so I think you can explain away how we got to this place with Matthew Golden even if his rookie year was very disappointing compared to other first round picks recently yeah it was like disappointing in terms of production but like I and this to me is not a situation where it was like Quinton Johnston in his rookie year where it was like not necessarily a loaded receiver group and he was struggling a little bit to get on the field and you had all the like really obvious drop issues to me with golden it was just like they had four or five good pass catchers already and i think that this is a team that is always drafting ahead and clearly decided that they wanted to do that here and that's okay yeah i agree i i think there's absolutely a world where matthew golden has a really nice second season all right that is all we've got for today I sincerely appreciate everybody listening.

52:02Robert Mays: We'll actually be back Wednesday this week. When you guys are listening to this, I'll just be getting back from vacation. We're still going to have four shows this week, but it's going to be Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, instead of our normal Monday through Thursday schedule. So just be on the lookout for that. But starting a week from now, we are back to Monday through Thursday, four shows a week. Very excited to be back. Appreciate everyone who sent in the questions. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode.

52:31Robert Mays: If you enjoyed what you heard, please like, comment, and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

52:57end of your first year. Seriously, all of it. And we trust you to make smart decisions. After all, you listen to this show. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. If you've used Babbel, you would. Babbel's conversation-based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55 % off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com slash acast.

53:39Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash acast. Rules and restrictions may apply. Need up to$250 before payday? You know the vibe a few days left your account on empty and all your bills hit at once with Clio you can get up to$250 cash advance to help cover the gap there's no interest no credit checks and you can repay on a schedule that works for you download Clio and get the cash you need before payday depending on eligibility you can get up to a$250 cash advance terms and conditions apply