Who's winning—and losing—the trenches this NFL season?

0:28Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. felt the offensive line and the quality of these offensive lines is potentially the number one driver of that so i wanted to have my friend brandon thorne from the trench warfare sub stack on to just talk about exactly that which offensive lines have been better than we might have expected coming into the year which offensive lines have been worse than we might have expected coming into the year we also got into just individual players you know guys that have surprised him at each spot along the offensive line we talked about which offensive line coaches and ecosystems are getting the most out of these players now and why that might be the case.

1:01And you'll notice a theme as we dig into some of this stuff. A lot of the teams that have surprised us this year that are better than their Vegas win-loss total, than predictions might have led you to believe, those are the ones whose offensive lines have outpaced expectations. A lot of the teams who've maybe been a little bit worse than you might have thought coming into the year, those are the offensive lines that haven't played up to the level that we might have anticipated coming into the season. And so I think these groups go a long way in determining how an NFL season plays out. And that's exactly what we dug into today.

1:31So very excited to dig into this conversation with Brandon. Let's get to it right now.

1:40I am very excited to dig into this conversation today. I enjoyed going back and doing the work and the research for this conversation today. all offensive line talk and watching all the time here to help me dig into this. It is my favorite person to talk about this subject with from the trench warfare sub stack. It is my old buddy, Brandon Thorne. How you doing, man? I'm doing great, Robert. Always happy to get the invite and happy to be here. And yeah, man, just looking forward to this. I mentioned this in the intro. I think there are some shows that we do on the feed and some of the episodes that we dig into that truly are just an effort at like service journalism in a way, right?

2:18Trying to help people understand why the league is unfolding the way that it is. And I think the offensive lines that are better or worse than we might have expected, the offensive line men that are better or worse than we might expected, it often drives which teams are outperforming or underperforming expectations. And so what I wanted to do today is just spend some time talking about which groups have been better or worse than we thought over the course of the year and how that has shaped the NFL season as we ease toward the halfway point here. So let's just dig right into it. I want to start with just the overall offensive lines in your mind after all of the studying that you do, all of the watching that you do that have been better than we expected.

2:59And let's start with the first team you mentioned to me, and that is the Indianapolis Colts. So coming into the season, obviously we have three starters for the Colts that I was going to say are known quantities. That's not really true because of everything that's happened with Braden Smith over the last couple of years. But obviously, Braden Smith has been a fixture for the Colts for a long time. So you have Bernard Ryman at left tackle, just got paid this offseason. A real success story from a player development standpoint. We know what Quentin Nelson is. And then Braden Smith went healthy and when, you know, when he's right.

3:30You know, obviously everything that he went through with the OCD that he was suffering from. And it's been a tough couple of years for him. But we know at his best, he is a capable player. That still left two pretty big question marks on the interior coming into the season. They lose center Ryan Kelly and Will Fries in free agency, both to the Minnesota Vikings. Tanner Bordelini comes in at center. Matt Gonsalves comes in at right guard. We saw them in stretches last year, but young players and still, I think, to a degree, question marks coming into the year. So as you're trying to kind of categorize and work through why the Colts offensive line has been better than you might expected this year, Does it really just sit with what you have seen from Bordellini and Gonsalves halfway through the season?

4:10Yeah, I think so. When you're isolating the offensive line, but I think you have to look at it from kind of a bigger vantage point and just look at the whole offense and everything is working. Everything is clicking. You're getting career. You're out of Daniel Jones. I think that's a big part of it. And just everybody's playing well. So it seems like everything they're calling is working. I like the environment that they're operating within as well just in terms of you look at how often they're running the ball and then when they do pass it I think the first in play action percentage you know things like that their the running game is very potent which is a credit to the offensive line to a large degree but what it also does for their pass protection they're not in a lot of unfavorable down in distances things like that so once your running game I think is kind of setting everything off like it is for them.

5:00It makes the passing game easier. And then the scheme that they're doing it in is also making it a little bit easier. So kind of masking, not, not asking a whole lot from the offensive line and pass protection specifically. And then when you do, they are executing well. So I think you've set the table with that, but you know, Bordellini and, and, um, gone calves or, or I'm not sure how you pronounced it. I always say Gonsalves. I don't know if that's right or wrong. That's like, that's what I always say. I truly don't know how to pronounce it, even though I have heard it. Like I shouldn't know at this point and I still can't get it right.

5:32I should definitely know. Um, but yeah, he's been the biggest surprise to me because Bordellini, I had some questions about, you know, going back to as a prospect, I liked him. He was almost one of my guys, you know, when I do my top 10 list and what put me off of that was at the senior bowl, uh, one-on-one reps and pass protection, you could see some of the limitations and I just thought if I'm projecting to the league uh you know maybe not quite as you know good of a fit as you would be as as a higher level prospect you know with better physical traits and things like that but a great athlete and does really good things in the run game and now with everything we just said in terms of what he's being asked to do he's in the perfect situation and he's really playing at a very high level um but Gonsalves though like I was a little lower on him at Pittsburgh.

6:22Um, he played tackle. I thought he definitely needed to kick inside to guard and he's really stepped up. He's been really stout at the point of attack and strong and physical and, um, you know, really good on jump sets on the play action reps that he's getting to execute. So, uh, some of his concerns being a little stiff, you know, and reactions and, you know, reactionary quickness, I would say he's kind of below average. That's kind of getting mass. So, um, yeah. And then the other three that you mentioned are all playing at a very high level. So this is, it's been a surprise because I had them coming into the year.

6:53I believe they were 14th or 15th in my offensive line rankings. So, you know, kind of middle of the pack, because I just wanted to see how, you know, the center and right guard were going to look. But everything that we've said and what they're being asked to do, it's just way better than I expected. And they're one of the five best units in the league right now and kind of a driver of their success too. too. Let's take those guys individually, like watching Bordellini. You have posted a couple of clips this week, just some of the work that he's doing in space. And that's what really jumps out to me.

7:28And his kind of lateral quickness and recovery ability in space is remarkable. And some of that stuff manifests on screens or like when he's really out in a ton of space, like on the second level, on screen passes, et cetera. But when he's moving laterally, the ability to kind of the quickness in that space and the recover, the ability to recover, you see it on like kind of crazy angle reach blocks as well. Like it's not just in space. And so even if he's a little bit undersized, like his ability to find guys, but also maintain contact with guys and recover is absolutely crazy. And you see that all the time when you're watching him.

8:08And so some of the plays he can make in the run game because of that ground he can cover is really remarkable even for an undersized player. And I think they've weaponized that in a really effective way. Oh yeah. I mean the, the pin pulls just, you know, regular outside zone or inside zone, just climb into the second level off of combos, you know, singles, a blocks, things like that, um, are, are really good. Uh, his ability to intersect, you know, linebackers on those climbs is outstanding. And then some of the screen stuff that we've seen has been awesome as well. So yeah, just a really fun scheme, you know, getting guys out on the move like they do.

8:44I mean, Quentin Nelson, one of the best pullers in the league and that's kind of year in year out. So we're just seeing more of the same there, but yeah, Bordellini, man. I mean, you know, that's what he does. He's one of the best, you know, lateral mover kind of athletes that we've seen both on paper and on film. Now that we're seeing it, it's actually playing out because he tested, I think he had maybe the best shuttle or three cone of all time for a center. So, you know, we're kind of seeing that. And yeah, he's just, he's a really good run blocker and he has, I'd say elite athletic ability as well.

9:17Do you think Quentin Nelson is playing better this year than he has played over the last couple of years? He's obviously been an elite player for a long time. It just seems like it's even at a higher gear so far through the first half of the season than it had been over the last couple of seasons. Maybe I'm just watching the Colts more and maybe that's why I'm noticing it more, but it really does feel like he's playing some of the best football he's ever played. I think pass protection is pretty similar to what it's always been. I think the run game stuff, he's just, he has more of an opportunity to showcase it this year than he has in a few years since Taylor had that last big year that he had, you know, several years ago.

9:50So I think it's just more impact, impact blocks that are leading to bigger runs. And it's just kind of accentuating what he does a little bit more, but it's still Quentin Nelson, you know, and pretty much every respect, I think. it's just uh yeah i think the rate of impact blocks has risen because of how potent their running game is i think that makes a lot of sense so you talked about this at the top and i think it's important to dig into this just as a big picture thought as we talk about a couple of these other offensive lines because there's a through line with a lot of these offensive lines the ecosystem that you're putting these guys in is hugely important and whether they succeed or fail where they play below or above expectations.

10:31So the three offense, the three offenses in the NFL this year that have had a higher, the highest percentage of their drop backs against base defense in the NFL are the Indianapolis Colts, the Seattle Seahawks and the new England Patriots. I think those are the three offenses that you could probably say compared to preseason expectations have outpaced those expectations the most this year. Those are three of the four offensive lines that you had as outperforming expectations this year. So I'm just curious, how you try to extricate that. Like how much of this is what the coaching staff is doing to set these guys up to succeed?

11:05And how much of this is the play of the individual offensive linemen themselves? And is it ever really possible to separate those two things? I think the biggest opportunity to separate those two things is when you find the one-on-one reps. You can find those in the run game as well. If it's kind of like an angle drive base block sort of situation, you know you could see that in zone or gap scheme any any kind of scheme when they're asked to you know cover up a guy or kick out a guy or create displacement on a guy specifically down linemen you know i think those opportunities you could really see what an individual guy is capable of and then you adjust based on level of competition and then that could carry more weight and then you do the same for pass protection you know true drop back pass situations you know third down in high leverage situations, those sorts of things.

11:55And then of course, adjust for level of competition and you just try to isolate those reps. But I think, you know, so I always, I'm on the hunt for those reps all the time. Cause I feel like that's really the difference maker in guys, you know, in the trenches. However, it is kind of a double-edged sword for me when I'm watching film, because the less of those that I can find the better, you know, in terms of, not for me and my enjoyment watching it, but just for putting myself in the offensive lineman's shoes, the less of those opportunities you have specifically in pass pro, the better. So you're just living a better life, you know, essentially as an offensive lineman, when you're not asked to do those things.

12:35And I mean, it's funny, I just go back to this conversation I had with a line coach at offensive line masterminds a couple of years ago. And he said that in their meeting rooms, um, typically one of the themes that he tries, he tries to get across is, you know, if you guys buy into what I'm selling here and you, you know, buy into this, then one of my goals is to reduce the amount of drop back passes that you're going to be exposed to. That's kind of what we're trying to do here. And he's a real high level offensive line coach who's been around for a long time, had a lot of success. And I think that's kind of one of the things that, you know, I'm guessing that a lot of offensive line coaches and play designers and things like that will, you know, that's one of their goals.

13:17You want to reduce those situations. You do it by obviously having a potent running game, you know, utilizing RPO's play action. When you do pass bootlegs, you know, chips, you know, various help to sort of situations, condensed formations is another way you could do that. So all sorts of window dressing type of things that you could do to reduce those. And I think the Seahawks Patriots and Colts have done an excellent job at making all that work. So yeah, we could dig into the individuals on those lines, but I think the scheme and what they're being asked to do is really the driver of their success, specifically with the Patriots and the Seahawks, probably more so.

14:00so you look at the numbers and i've we did a video about this earlier in the year just kind of the structural changes that have happened with the seahawks offense so this season if you look at just pure pass sets with pitch pff sorts if you have a pff subscription every single one of those seahawks offensive linemen is down near the bottom of the nfl for players that have played at least seven games they have like 88 of them total over the seven games that those guys have played so it's at the bottom of the league like truly last year all of those guys were at the top of the league, every single one of them.

14:29Like it's hard to go from a more different situation than what the Seahawks were in last year compared to what they were in, what they are now in this year. And it's a, it's multifaceted, right? So it's personnel usage. Like you mentioned, the Seahawks are using as little oven personnel as any team in the NFL. It's all 21, 12, 13. It's how they live. And so you're doing a bunch of different things in those scenarios. You're simplifying the calls that you're seeing from a defense and helping yourself avoid pressure looks. You are creating wider edges for defensive ends consistently with multiple tight end sets.

15:00You're creating more chips. You're creating more traffic. And with all of the play action that usually comes along with those, you're minimizing the amount of true pass sets that you have. And so you're making life just so much easier on every single one of these guys. And so with Seattle specifically, when they were making all of the changes that they made to their personnel coming into the season, you draft Grace Abel in the first round. They have a new starting center this year. I said, and they should have done that, right? Like they needed better talent across the board up front than they had last year.

15:27But my stance was even if they had changed out none of the component parts and all they did was change the structure of the offense that they were running, you were still going to see dramatically better offensive line play from the Seahawks this year. And they did both of them. And now you have an offensive line that's completely outpacing expectations. I think in your most recent rankings, you had them like 15th among the all the offensive lines in the NFL. that's a miracle considering what the Seahawks offensive line has looked like the last couple of years. Like it's better than you ever could have hoped for.

15:59Yeah. I mean, coming into the year, I don't recall what I had, but I, they were definitely in the bottom five, you know, that I had them then. Cause I just wasn't sure, you know, what the scheme was going to look like. I had, I mentioned it in there that I was encouraged by it, but I just needed to see it first before I was going to go higher than that. So, um, and I don't think that it's a coincidence that this is a Kubiak, you know, designed offense either, you know, going back to the Shanahan tree. I mean, you look at the Shanahan tree, going back to Mike Shanahan and just all the tentacles across the league that there are.

16:32I mean, almost every one of those systems is one of the more offensive line friendly systems in the league. They have the recipe. They know what they're doing, you know, in terms of getting the most out of their offensive line and And it allows them to skimp here and there. And, of course, your offensive line coaches, you know, that's one of his biggest jobs is allowing you to not have to allocate as much resources to the position so he could develop and things like that. But their scheme, man, I mean, you know, with Kowiak designing it, you know, Clint Kowiak, yeah, I think that's the driver of their success for the most part.

17:07And then Sam Darnold as well. Like his time to throw is super fast this year. He's getting rid of the ball on time. I mean, he's dialed in. I mean, Sam Donald's like dealing back there too. So like that as well, they don't have a lot of third downs, you know, like they're 28th and third downs this year. Like they're just, they're just not getting to third down a lot. You know, it's just, they're, they're, they're firing on all cylinders, man. It's, it's, it's fun to watch. So I'm going to put you on the spot here. This is a difficult question to answer, but I'm just curious what your thought is.

17:36Let's take those three teams specifically, the Colts, the Patriots and the Seahawks. if you were trying to create like a pie chart of, all right, how much of this is the scheme and how much of this is improvement in the personnel, just the players that are a part of this five and progress from those individual players, which team do you think is mostly, has been most driven by the performance of the talent itself compared to what type of lifting the scheme is doing? If you can even do that, I'm curious how you would rank those three. Yeah. I'd also put in the quarterback too. I don't know how you'd want to put that.

18:09And maybe with the scheme, that scheme environment, because yeah, Drake may's ability to not drift in the pocket is awesome. But, uh, um, I would say the Seahawks and the Patriots, I would, I'd maybe go like 70, 30, you know, schemes, you know, 65, 35, something like that. And then the Colts, I would go more like 60, 40, 55, 45. Cause just cause I think their personnel is, is, is better than these other two, you know, cause of Raymond Nelson and Smith. I think those Those guys are more, you know, kind of, you know, higher on the hierarchy, you know, at their position than the other guys have. But yeah, that's how I would do it.

18:48If you're looking at, let's talk about Seattle kind of individually with obviously Charles Cross has been a good player. I think he's probably playing some of his best play, some of his best ball as a pass protector, specifically this year, as he's gotten a little bit deeper in his career, playing in a more friendly environment, having a Blukas be healthy, right? Like we've always known he was capable of this. Now the fact that he looks as healthy as he's been probably since his rookie year, right? You see him playing at a really high level. Let's take the interior guys specifically. Is there anybody among that group with Zabel, Jalen Sundell, their center?

19:18Let's leave, maybe leave Anthony Bradford off to the side with Zabel and Sundell. Are those guys in your mind playing better in those isolated situations than you might have imagined? Or do you think this is a lot of what the offense is asking them to do? um I would say Zabel would be the guy that I would signal out there you know more more so than Sundell Sundell I think is very scheme specific like this is the ideal situation for him similar to Bordellini but Bordellini just has a little more to him than Sundell but um yeah so I think Zabel is a guy you know I liked him as a prospect I thought he had a very high ceiling um you know especially as over time as he adjusted level of competition coming from North Dakota State and And, you know, his run blocking already, I think, is really good.

20:02You know, one-on-one pass pros still trying to figure some stuff out, I think, with set points and positional leverage and things like that. You think that's more of a position change than anything else? I think so. I think Zabel, like, you know, all things considered at this point, you know, he's going to be a really good player. Like, I think he's a building block. You know, maybe the best. You could argue he's the best guy on the line right now. I think that that's up for debate. but I think you know it's it's a worthwhile debate to have and for him to be a rookie you know eight games into his career that's pretty impressive so yeah I think Zabel's a certified guy you know it's just over time I expect him to just kind of clean stuff up basically and then Sundell I think he could he could kind of survive and not just survive he's kind of an asset in the run game you know specifically you know with some of the reach blocks some of the stuff that he can on the move and um but you don't want him isolated very often i don't think so yeah is able to me is more of the guy with new england specifically obviously it's similar situation we have a couple kind of established veterans that we kind of know about on the right side with on whenu and morgan moses essentially more of the same from them like are they about what you expected them to be considering what the last few years have looked like for those two yeah i think so i think you're starting to see more of Morgan Moses's age a little bit when he's isolated out there on an island and pass bro just he's always been just kind of a guy who needs to win quickly in pass protection and uses length and kind of wall guys off you know as they're going up you know high side sort of rushes around the corner but the corner is a little shorter for him nowadays I think but it kind of gets masked because Drake May is so good at and partly for Will Campbell too, because that's one of his, you know, discrepancies, I guess, of his game is kind of a short corner guys can kind of get on his edge.

21:50But because of, I think when I watch film, a thing that stands out to me on Drake may is his ability for his back foot to hit and not drift back, you know, outside the pocket deep and step up and out or just straight up out. Um, that right there really forces pass rushers to have to work down the middle of the tackles. And that plays into their wheelhouse, especially Campbell. But both of them really, because I like both of their anchors and their ability to deal with power. So I think when you have a quarterback who doesn't drift and it forces the pass rushers, the edge rushers to go down the center of tackles, then you can kind of mitigate some of those short corner issues that you could kind of see.

22:35So I think that's been a huge part. It's a really nice compliment to each other, the quarterback and the tackles here. So I think that's interesting. Let's talk about the left side. Will Campbell is a fascinating player. Like, I think I knew that coming in, like if you watch what he was in college, just the physical profile he's bringing to the table and just the mirror ability is kind of wild and it was in college and you still see a little bit of that in the NFL, but then you see some of the deficiencies for him physically as well. So when you think about the first half of his rookie season, is he about what you expected to be based on what you thought of him as a prospect or has been, has there been gaps in your, based on your expectations that you've kind of seen crop up over the first couple of months?

23:16Yeah, really interesting player. So, you know, he was my top rated offensive lineman in the draft, but I thought he would be an ideal guard. So, um, but I, he was my favorite guy in the draft. So I thought he could potentially make tackle work. And I think he's made it work better than I expected so far. Um, you know, there are still some of the deficiencies that you see specifically with, you know, guys getting on his edge. But they provide chip help really well in New England. You know, Hunter Henry's chipped his, you know, what off this year, you know, against guys, you know, which has been awesome.

23:47You know, those chip releases have helped both tackles. And, you know, even I think he's an Austin Hooper as well. So they're chipping, you know, a good amount, you know, which helps. But even when you watch the isolated reps for Campbell, I mean, he does a really good job of getting to his spot, square, good weight distribution, balanced. He's ready to transition into his anchor pretty quickly. Guys can establish first meaningful contact on him, you know, a little bit more than you want because of, I think, some of the length and wingspan, you know, kind of deficiencies. But I think his play strength is good.

24:22he could certainly anchor well once he actually you know is able to get his hands inside on guys and then he moves really well of course as well but guys can kind of access his edges a little bit easier than you would want but is that length based in your mind like why do you think that happens and do you think that's something that can improve over time I think it can because you know there's a circle technique that tackles often use where you're kind of working that outside hand around pass rushers swipes and chops so they aren't able to you know trap that outside arm so i you know you've seen that from him you see that from pretty much all tackles at some to some level um so i think if he really dials that in and just continues to fine tune that it'll limit those situations but i think it's always going to be you know one of those areas of his game that you could capitalize on especially if you're a certain kind of rusher who can get his feet stopped you know if you're able to set up your moves and get his feet to stop and then go to a cross chop or you know stab chop rip or whatever guys are going to use to access those high side sort of rushes you could kind of get on his edge a little bit easier because he's just kind of a narrowly built guy there's just not a lot of width there or mass so you know it's just simple physics i guess you know just you know not a lot of space there to to work around um so i think in college he could get away with that, right?

25:47That happened in college as well, but his lateral quickness and his ability to recover, even if that happened, he was usually be able to, he would be, he would take the play back over, over the course of the play in college in a way that he can't against more talented players. And that, that's kind of what I mean when I say he's kind of what I expected him to be in a lot of ways, but as the competition has gotten better, I think some of those deficiencies just become a little bit more amplified. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And, and when, you know, if he's going to be with Drake May for a long time, you know, I would assume.

26:18So with the style of play that Drake May plays with, it kind of reminds me, you know, of Dak when he first came out, you know, with was a 16 or 17 in Dallas. I remember watching Dak early on and I'm just like, man, this guy never drifts, you know, back foot hits. He's a quarterback robot. And it was just awesome. I was like, wow, there's young guys coming in. It's just like making life easy on the offensive line. And so like that is, you know, tackle is going to work essentially for Will Campbell. I think, you know, in this environment, this scheme, this quarterback, I think it's going to work.

26:48So it's awesome. Not the only position switch among rookies on that offensive line. Obviously Jerry Wilson was a center at Georgia before moving to guard in the NFL, which was surprising to me, right? Like, I just don't think I ever expected that. Like when they announced that in the preseason, they're like, yeah, he's going to be the starting left guard. I was like, okay. I just, we assumed he was going to be a center. That's what everyone kind of projected him to be in your mind, obviously he's been banked up this year. He's been in and out of the lineup, but when he has played, what have your early impressions been of that transition from Jared Wilson specifically?

27:22Yeah. A little bit more of a, you know, up and down, you know, kind of rollercoaster kind of feel when you're watching him in terms of, you know, he's just not, he looks like a center playing guard to me. But I do think once he gets latched onto a block and he's able to kind of close space on guys, his ability to sustain and, uh, you know, drive guys off the ball for his, even his size. I think he's, he's explosive and twitchy. Um, and I, you know, in place of really good natural leverage as well, kind of a shorter guy. Um, so I, I think that he does some really nice things, uh, you know, in terms of sustaining blocks in the run game, um, and pass pro though, he's still trying to figure out his hands and, you know, landing his hands at the right time, shooting his hands at the right time and not letting guys get inside of him and getting blown up and things like that.

28:12Like it still happens, but, um, you know, it makes sense to me though, that he is playing guard just because I think, you know, with Drake may being kind of a little bit younger, you want more of that veteran presence at center and Garrett Bradbury. And, you know, I think that's probably a piece of it. Um, and Wilson's one of your best fives. So he's making it work. Um, you know, I don't think it's a liability, but there are some, you know, you, you kind of have to work around some of his deficiencies and losses, you know, clean, more clean losses than you would like. But I also think he's countering that with some really nice flashes as well.

28:46So, um, yeah, maybe not a long-term guard, maybe, maybe not, but. You know, I think pretty promising. All right. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and talk about some of the offensive lines that maybe playing a little bit worse than we might have expected this year

29:04all right you had three teams you wanted to dig into here and i don't think any of these three teams should be a surprise based on preseason expectations and a couple of them i expected to be much much better than what we've seen from them so far let's start with the team that you had first here and that is the minnesota vikings the vikings offensive line was remade in large part this off season you know they go out and sign two guys in free agency two guys the colts lost in in ryan kelly and will fries to play center and right guard they draft jonathan jackson in the first round bring back christian darisaw missed the first couple games of the season but now is back at left tackle before getting banged up and then brian o 'neill who also has was hurt at some point this year so when you think about the vikings offensive line maybe not playing up quite to the level of expectation you had heading into the season how much of that is injury driven and how much of that is this group when healthy, not quite playing as well as you might've expected?

29:58This to me is like 90 % injury driven. Yeah, I mean, because Derisaw, his recovery doesn't seem to be going ideally. You know, I mean, he came out last week, you know, I think because of the knee and, you know, we're week eight. And so that is a little concerning. You know, missed a couple of games open the year, came back, hasn't quite looked like himself, but still definitely above average tackle. But you would like to have seen him have more of like a Tristan Wirth sort of recovery, even though I know Daris had, you know, a more lengthy rehab and all that. But so it hasn't gone super great there.

30:34That's a little concerning. Donovan Jackson been, you know, dinged up a little bit as well. Okay. You know, solid, I think fine. What you expected Jonathan Jackson to be. It's just like, that's probably, if you had a two word evaluation of Donovan Jackson as a guard at Ohio State, it's like, solid, he'll probably be fine. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So as expected there, I mean, Ryan Kelly getting, you know, hurt, he has concussion. He's at, he's on short-term IR right now. And, you know, that's, you know, concerning, uh, you know, don't know when he's going to be back at this point. Um, so they've had to just, I think, uh, Michael Juergens played center a little bit, Blake Brandell, maybe, um, guys who don't typically play center.

31:13That's been, And that's been a huge hindrance on the offense, I think. And then Brown O 'Neal now, you know, dealing with his own knee injury. So it's just injury, you know, to me driven more than anything else. And then also, you know, partly quarterback, you know, kind of uncertainty and, you know, Carson Wentz can get a little skittish back there. You know, that doesn't help things. But yeah, I think offensive line wise, it's, you know, just a lot of unfortunate injuries. for Tennessee that was the second team that you mentioned I'll say this I mean I think I've talked about it multiple different times so far this season that was a unit that I expected to be like a potential strength for the Titans heading into the year like when you look at that group left to right you can talk yourself into that being a top 10 borderline top 10 offensive line if things break right for that group so at left tackle you have Dan Moore and the entire talking point the entire selling point i think even if dan moore was overpaid in free agency dan more 20 million dollars a year is not an ideal team building piece but if he's your fifth best offensive lineman you can survive and be fine with dan moore as your left tackle skaranski at left guard i thought really turned a corner in the back half of last season was playing that the guy he was drafted to be in the top 10 11 i can't remember exactly where he went in the draft you get lloyd cushionberry back at center he's a very good player when healthy you bring in kevin Zeiler, who was still playing at a really high level in Detroit last year.

32:36And then you get JC Latham back at his natural position at right tackle. You have Bill Callahan. Can this be the best offensive line in the AFC South? Can it be a driver of why the Titans are maybe a little bit better than we expect? None of that happened. Not a single element of that came into place or fell into place for the Titans this year. Some of that is injury, right? Like Latham was banged up starting in week one, but I think it goes way beyond that. I think this is a group where it's not just because a couple of guys have been hurt. So if you're trying to figure out maybe where the Titans have been worse than you might've expected them to be heading into this season, where have those issues kind of sat with you?

33:18Uh, the tackles, um, you know, I, I think so to me, Skaronsky's played very well this year. So I think Skaronsky has been in like a bright spot for them for sure. Cushenberry has gotten better as the year's gone on. He's come back from an Achilles. the first four or five games, you know, just took a little while. Cushenberry starting to kind of look more like himself. Zeitler, I think is fine. The interior has been fine. It's just to me, the biggest surprise is Dan Moore just like taking a step back. And I thought under Bill Callahan, he would at least be what he was, you know, last year in Pittsburgh and just kind of, if not anything, continue the upward trajectory that he was on.

33:54So for him to regress, that was pretty shocking to me. That's the single most surprising element here. And then Latham just being hurt. I mean, he missed five games or whatever. And then they go back to what they were last year, you know, where right tackle is a complete liability. So not being able to develop anything, you know, in terms of depth under Bill Callahan over the last couple of years has been very surprising. More taking the step back. Those two elements there, I think, are the main drivers of their struggles. And then, you know, I mean, you look at some of the numbers that I'm looking at, just real basic stuff.

34:32You know, they're not running the ball, you know, very often or very well. Not a lot of play action, high time to throw, you know, a lot of third downs, you know, third and bad situations. So it's like, yeah, nothing, nothing went right this year for them. And the Callahan element, though, is very surprising. I'm 100 % with you. And that's kind of the thing that jumped out to me is that this was supposed to be a group where you're not seeing guys regress. You're coming in and they're the best versions of themselves or at least the same versions of themselves that they were at previous stops. And this isn't supposed to be a group where if you go to your backup right tackle, it's a glaring thing like blinking up in lights.

35:14Like there are so many different teams where you look at the offensive line ecosystem and you wouldn't even know a backup is in the game. Like, I think the best example of that to me over the last two years is Detroit. Like, you think about all the games that the Lions have had to play. And it's not a ton, right? They haven't been super banged up. But there have been a handful of games every single year where, you know, your Manu's playing because Taylor Decker's banged up. Or last year, Chris Mahogany had to play a couple games because Graham Glasgow was hurt. And you just don't even notice it.

35:42Like, it wouldn't even be a talking point about the game because it's not apparent to somebody just watching with the naked eye. and that's what a good offensive line ecosystem does. You're able to kind of paper over that stuff and it's not a glaring issue, even as you're digging into your depth a little bit. And so the fact that the Titans have not been that sort of offensive line system over the last couple of years, when Bill Callahan came aboard, that's just been surprising. And I think it's been one of the main disappointing elements of who this team has been the last two years. Yeah, it's been the, this is the most disappointing offensive line in the league, I think pretty easily because it's not injury related too much.

36:20I mean, the Latham thing is, you know, mentionable, but it's not the driver here. So yeah, this is, this one for me really threw me for a loop, you know, just because Callahan has a 20 plus year track record of usually getting the most out of guys. So yeah, pretty surprising. I'm going to put you on the spot. I'm just curious about this because I'm just thinking about offensive line coaches in general. Who in your mind, as some of maybe the older offensive line coaches like a Bill Callahan are potentially moving on, this might be the end of his career who are kind of the guys on the rise in your mind like who have created these situations that are now really good spots for offensive linemen to be I think Hank Fraley just who I just alluded to was absolutely one of them in Detroit me think about what they've been able to do and the guys they've been able to develop Tony Sperano Jr.

37:04in Indianapolis I think the Colts like have done an incredible job over the last three or four seasons since since Shane Steichen got there at getting the most out of these guys like Ryman's an incredible success story as a third round pick and both Bordellini and Gonsalves are third and fourth round picks, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And so those two, I think absolutely have kind of established themselves in the little fraternity of plus plus offensive line coaches. We obviously know what the Eagles are doing and continue to do. Who else is on that list to you? Like the places that you feel whatever is coming through the door, they are getting the most out of whoever those players are.

37:42I mean I definitely think Zach Streif um in Denver you know I mean I think a large part of that is also Sean Payton and sort of you know it's kind of hard to differentiate the two there they're kind of you know a pair but I mean Streif absolutely you know um you know I Ben Powers is hurt right now he's on IR and uh you wouldn't even know it yeah I mean new center this year they haven't missed a beat yeah well Wattenberg came back I think you know but still I mean like Like, yeah, the fact that power is out. Bowles is playing the best football the last two years of his career by far. You know, McLinchey is playing good football again after several years of not doing that.

38:24He was pretty good last year, too. So, yeah, I mean, and then minors, you know, all pro. So, I mean, Streif, I think, is definitely in that conversation. Another guy that I throw out there is Dwayne Ledford for Atlanta, who's been a guy that I've just been a fan of for a while. You know, he really majors in that zone scheme. That's, you know, his bread and butter going back to college. He coached Mekhi Becton in Louisville, you know, and so, but yeah, I mean, since he's been in Atlanta, he's stayed now, you know, through multiple regimes. Now he's a run game coordinator, I think, for the first time this year.

38:59And what they've been able to kind of, you know, piece together with McGarry going down, you know, before the season Wilkinson, you know, can still get exposed a little bit in pass bro, but I'm excited to talk about him later. I know we're going to hit him in another area, but like that was a name when I saw it on the list of guys that you sent over, I was excited to dig into. So I think Levert's a guy, a good guy to mention. We'll talk about Wilkinson in a second. Um, yep. Yep. The him, um, I think Luke Buckus, you know, in green Bay, you know, but that's, again, it's kind of hard to differentiate the floor there.

39:29Um, you know, Dan Rauscher in Chicago, him in New Orleans, he put together a lot of good offensive lines in New Orleans for a long time. So it was cool to see him get a job again. And so I think he's kind of mentionable here. But yeah, I mean, Bobby Johnson in Washington has done, really turned his career around after that Giants here in 22. And, you know, the last couple of years with Cliff, him and Cliff have a good thing going. So, but yeah, I think Streif and Ledford would be the first two that I would mention. the center and Denver I met last year right like the one bird comes in last year for Cushenberry and it's just like they're the best pass protecting offensive line in the league and so the fact that they've been able to do that pretty consistently has been very impressive all right so the last team you wanted to mention here in the groups that are maybe playing worse than expected are the Baltimore Ravens and I'm so glad that you threw this out there because this is a group that brings the same players back that they had last year and this was a group last season that if you look at a lot of the advanced metrics, like fewest quick pressures of any team in the NFL, despite the fact that the quarterback hangs onto the ball for a long time, stylistically, that's just who he's going to be.

40:35You know, the run game was so dominant last year. And a good portion of that is a combination of Lamar Jackson and Derek Henry, and some of the advantageous looks that puts you in, but this was still a good group last season. They bring back all of the component parts and they just haven't played at quite the same level. So if you're trying to figure out how that has come to be for the Ravens. Like, where does that start for you? Yeah. Um, I think first Ronnie Stanley, you know, I think he's only missed a, a game or so, but he's went out multiple games, you know, early on, like after like 15, 20 snaps or so.

41:10So like starting to get, he's looked good when he's been on the field, but I'm getting a little concern there. Like, is he going to be holding up, you know, for full games as the year goes on? So that's a little bit of a concern because when no boom comes in, that's a big drop off and left tackle. And then they're both their guards. You are very gettable in pass protection, one-on-one situations, as is Tyler Linderbaum a little bit more than you would like. He's an extremely undersized sort of center. You know, he's he's sort of comparable to Bordellini in some sense, you know, just in terms of their stature, their size, some of their limitations.

41:47and he's not really being afforded, you know, a lot of the same opportunities that Bordelini is, you know, this year in terms of scheme and things like that. Lamar being out, of course, you know, drags everybody down. So that's been a part of it. So the interior has been very shaky and pass pro Stanley in and out of the lineup a little bit. I think that's kind of the drivers, you know, there for them being a little disappointing. How about in the run game? Like, is there anything that you've seen from the interior that feels different in the run game that it might've looked like last year? Um, I mean, not necessarily.

42:20Uh, you know, I, I just think, you know, Voorhees, I think struggles to sustain blocks in the run game, you know, when no, and obviously that's the difference, right? Like McCary played a very good majority of last year, even if Voorhees was started the season as the starter. So that's important to acknowledge at least. Yep. Yep. Yeah. He was, he was there, but McCary last year was awesome. So, uh, yeah, you know, that got him paid in Jacksonville, you know? So yeah, I mean, that's been a drop off. And then of course, when no boom in there, that's a drop off. So I think they're doing a lot of the similar sort of stuff from what I've seen, but they're just not able to execute on that left side as much.

42:54Patrick Picard hasn't been in the lineup. He just came back. That's been a, you know, that's a huge piece of the running game. And then Lamar is obviously a huge piece of the running game. So yeah, I just think injury driven partly for some of those outside components of the running game. and then also that left side you know is a little bit concerning in the run game as well we're going to take one more quick break here and then we're going to come back and talk about just who the best offensive linemen in each position have been so far this year

43:26so let's take these one at a time i don't think we have to spend a ton of time on the known quantities at these spots like your left the best left tackles in the league so far in your mind this season, you had Laramie Tunsil, Tristan Wirfs, Trent Williams, Garrett Bowles, Andrew Thomas. A couple of those are more notable than others, right? Like we know what Wirfs is. The question was going to be, how well is he going to come back from injury? The answer is he's Tristan Wirfs. He just, he looks like Tristan Wirfs. That's been the answer. Trent Williams continues to play at a very, very high level at left tackle.

43:57Andrew Thomas, again, when he's been healthy coming back from injury, he's one of the best left tackles in the league. All of those, I think, make total sense. Tunsil and Bowles, in my opinion, are kind of the most notable among this group. You talked about Garrett Bowles playing the best football he's ever played later in his career. That extension that they signed him to is also kind of a bargain based on the level of play that they're seeing him from him right now. I think that's worth mentioning. Tunsil is the one that I'm curious about because this is a guy who the Texans were, you know, felt pretty good about shipping him out the door heading into the season.

44:31and I think they have felt the impact of that. I know you've mentioned this a couple different times over the first half of the year that you think Tunsell arguably has been the best left tackle in football this year. And I think even if you are going to make some arguments that it was a cultural decision, there were some non-football reasons that they traded him, you don't do that for a guy you think has a chance to be maybe the best left tackle in football the following year. I think there's some concerns about the level of play if you're going to make that decision. so in your mind maybe why has tonsil looked better this year than he had in some stretches over the last couple seasons yeah i mean well i think two years ago he was really really good um last year i think there's some weird stuff going on there off the field that you know it's hard to pin down i don't i don't know exactly but i think last year the main thing was penalties he was one of the most penalized guys in the league i mean it was just it was kind of bad you know he he's typically one of the more penalized tackles in the league his whole career if you if you look at it but last year it just got out of hand he just I don't remember what he had but it was it was a lot it was double digits I think you know well into it um so that to me it was just an undisciplined sort of tonsil um but in terms of his physical traits and you know when he is isolated one-on-one on guys like I didn't see much of a drop off there at all he was still tonsil you know in those gotta to have it kind of moments.

45:56So now it's just, he's a more disciplined version of himself, I think. And then he's also operating in a system now where the run game is fun. You know, he's being asked to do a bunch of cool stuff in the run game, you know, with a lot of the stuff they do with pinning guys, pulling guys and, you know, moving guys, you know, crack tosses and all this kind of cool stuff. So he's featured there and, but he could still lock down the blind side, you know, and he could do that at a level that's top five in the league of left tackle. So So it's just more of the same from Tunsil. He's just kind of reeled in his game a little bit, dialed it in a little bit.

46:31So I think the change of scenery has really helped him and he's in a good environment as well. So yeah, to me, Tunsil is definitely top three, top four left tackle this year again. Let's get to left guard. Again, a lot of usual suspects here. You had Quentin Nelson, Tyler Smith, Joe Tooney. I mean, those are probably the best left guards in the league for the last three years, wouldn't you say? Yeah, I think so. Yep. At center, Creed Humphrey was your number one. Again, was the best center in football last year, probably him and Frank Ragnow. The other two guys I think worth mentioning, you had Aaron Brewer as the guy you wanted to mention as the second, like one of the best centers in football so far this year of the Miami Dolphins.

47:11Again, unique player ability to kind of maximize his skillset in that scheme and just the way that they deploy him. Why did you want to talk about Aaron Brewer here? He has a case to be the best center in the league this year. I think he's certainly one of the three, but I'm most excited to talk about him. He's, you know, this sort of story is one of my favorites, you know, time and time again, he's kind of like the Garrett Bowles thing. You know, he first comes into the league, everybody's on, I mean, not playing well, you know, Bowles was one of the most penalized guys in the league and everyone thought he was done.

47:41And then Mike Munchak comes into Denver, saves his career. Well, Aaron Brewer, you know, in Tennessee had to play, you know, guard a little bit center. He's a 275 pounds coming into the NFL from a small school, you know, eventually gained a little bit of weight. Now I think he's around 300, you know, firmly. Um, but now he's in a system though, in Miami to where he's weaponized, you know, in terms of his athletic ability, he's explosive and powerful kind of has little shades of Jason Kelsey when he gets out there on the move. It's, it's pretty awesome to watch. He's, you know, if people like watching Bordellini, I mean, you know, Brewer does a lot of the same stuff, if not at a higher rate.

48:22Uh, so that's really what, you know, he's in a great situation. He's developed over time. Um, and now he's, you know, and then it also helps that too, is, you know, how quickly he gets rid of the ball and everything. So he doesn't necessarily have to hold his anchor, you know, as long as some other centers do, but he also has gotten better at that as well. So it's just been a really cool story and he's in the perfect situation and, uh, you know, everything he does well is on the table every week. And it's, it's, it's fun to watch. Speaking of slightly undersized centers, the third guy that you wanted to throw in here is Drew Dahlman who had, you know, a couple of rough moments early in the season for the bears.

49:00You know, it wasn't the strongest start. I think he's really settled in. And last week, a step back for this group as a whole, especially in the run game. But if you look at what they had done against Washington and against the saints and just how much better their run game looked and all the perimeter runs that they were trotting out in those two games. He's a main driver of that. So when you think about what drew a Dalman has been for the bears this year and what you had seen from him in Atlanta, is this what kind of level you expected him to play at? Or has he been better than you thought he was going to be changing spots and changing scenery?

49:32I think this is probably about where I expected, you know, I just, I think part of this is also driven by just center play overall is maybe a lagging a little bit, you know, it's a transitionary year for sure yeah it is in at other positions as well like right guard especially not having zach martin you know anymore and shack just the interior period yeah i mean just a lot of turnover so um but yeah dolman is still i think especially the last few weeks you know just just dolman you know just solid at everything he's in the right spot at the right time you know kind of captaining the ship well um you know he's very precise on combo blocks and his timing on his releases and overtakes is really good and just spatially very aware and just really good with leverage just a really fun guy to watch if you like watching centers that is uh you know he's just uh does does the little things well um not the most physically imposing guy or anything like that but yeah just kind of right spot right time guy consistent um so he's been he's been fun to watch and yeah i'm excited to watch the you know the bears offensive line more as i think it's like what is it week 10 on or week 11 on that's when things get real for this offensive line and i really want to see because of the defensive line schedule is going to get going to go to another level so um yeah i think we'll know more about some of these guys then at right guard again you know the guys that you had is the best in the league are the guys who have been the best in the league for the most part over the last couple years i believe right now correct me if i'm wrong but trey smith quinn minors uh chris lindstrom trey and quinn minors are the two highest paid right guards in the NFL, I think coming into this season.

51:10And so those guys have continued to play at a high level. The guy that I think might surprise some people here that you wanted to mention was Kevin Dotson from the Rams, who's been one of the best right guards in the league. What about Kevin Dotson's play this year has stood out to you? I mean, Kevin Dotson, just look at Kevin Dotson. I mean, that's, I mean, that's how he looks is how he plays. I mean, he is a brick wall in pass protection. There's a very clear reason why he's getting paid. Um, you know, his anchor is stout. Uh, he moves guys, he uproots guys by himself in the run game routinely, uh, just covers up his target in the run game.

51:47Um, you know, and he's, he has a little bit more patience and tact, you know, than you would expect as well. And that's kind of developed in pass protection, uh, you know, just going one-on-one against Jalen Carter and, uh, you know, even going back to last year and just, I mean, Kevin Dotson, you know, I just think in terms of holding ground and taking ground from defenders, he's one of the best right guards in the league. And that's just kind of cut and dry what he does to me. He's a very important presence for the Rams. Looking at the numbers on these contracts, I'm surprised by this. Just like the timing of the minors contract, I guess I thought he was getting paid more than he is because Trace Smith and Chris Lindstrom are...

52:29Yeah, they signed him early. Yeah, for some reason, I thought that it had come late enough that he was right in line with some of those other guys. But so Trey Smith and Lindstrom are the two highest paid right guards in the league. Trey Smith is a 23 and a half a year. Chris Lindstrom is a 20 and a half a year. But then Robert Hunt is at 20 and Sam Cosby is at 18 and a half and Miners is only at 18. For some reason, I thought it was higher than that. So multiple contracts off season, I think. So I think that's that maybe that's why. Maybe I had the timing mixed up in my head. Great timing on that one by them.

52:54Yeah, I mean, that's you look at that. I mean, that means that the Broncos have two guys that they signed to recent contracts, like in the last two off seasons or so. And they're already playing above market at both of those spots. And so that's a pretty good place to be if you're Denver, considering how much money you poured into that position. The last one here, your best right tackles in the NFL so far this season, I mean, stop me if you've heard these names before. You had Lane Johnson and Penesul. I mean, it's so clear and obvious that I don't even know who else you could talk about. I mean, I would probably put Spencer Brown, you know, third or fourth.

53:28And, but yeah, I mean, Spencer Brown's been really good this year, but Panay Sewell in the run game is electric. You know, Lane Johnson just is the best. He's just the best right tackle in the league, in my opinion. So, yeah, not much to say there. I think with those two guys, it's more of the same, honestly. I mean, Sewell had, you know, some struggles against Micah Parsons and pass pro when they played early in the season one-on-one. But, you know, Sewell's a really good pass protector, but he's not quite Lane. but the run game stuff, you know, Sewell, Sewell, you know, he's elite. So a lot of those names aren't surprising.

54:04And so I wanted to dig into some names that have been surprising. So along with the first team offensive line, this is the first, the all surprise offensive line. And let's do the same thing position by position, just guys that have maybe snuck up on you a little bit and played better than you might've expected coming into the year. The left tackle that you had was Kelvin Banks from the Saints. So obviously Kelvin Banks, top 10 pick, somebody that was a highly regarded prospect, but rookie tackles, it's a bit of a crapshoot. Like sometimes even guys that develop into really good players don't hit the ground running.

54:36What about Calvin Banks' performance for the Saints this year has maybe been a little bit better than you even might've expected? He's more sturdy in pass protection than I was expecting him to be in terms of anchoring against power. It's not perfect, but he generally is a a pretty sturdy presence out there. He still has a glaring concern to me that pops up three, four times a game where he has this habit of with his outside, he's a heavy outside hand striker and he'll strike down the middle of pass rushers and get beat around the corner quickly two, three times a game. It just, it happened last week as well.

55:11Um, so that, that happens, but he battled Yaya Diaby last week. It was a really fun tape to watch. They went back and forth. Um, so he's just like, he's battling guys and just I was expecting more losses than I've seen from him one-on-one and pass protection specifically even though he still has them so just you know I know he's a top 10 pick but for me I had him as a high second round pick so I wasn't you know I wasn't uh as high you know as maybe the league was on him so that's been a pleasant surprise I think he could probably stick a tackle you know I I still think that may be up for debate but yeah I think it's a little more encouraging than I've been, than I was expecting.

55:50There's a lot of nuance to his game for a young player. Like when you watch some of the stuff he's trying to do, like you mentioned that outside strike, like he does a good job of getting hands on guys and slowing them down. And then, so even he's not super long. I think he has like 33 and a half inch arms. And so guys saying, yeah, he plays like Tyron Smith, but he's not Tyron Smith. He doesn't have the hands. Right. And so it's interesting because like when he he's, he uses that punch effectively to kind kind of slow guys down initially, but then they can get into his chest, but he's big enough to anchor in those moments.

56:20And so it allows him to kind of survive even with a little bit of a lack of length. The two things that jump out to me going back and watching him, because when you threw him on there, I was like, Oh, do go do some Kelvin Banks study. He, you mentioned that Will Campbell is a very narrow player. Kelvin Banks is the opposite of that. Like he is such a wide player that I think that there are some benefits that come along with that. And the other thing that really jumped out to me, Bears game specifically, because they were throwing a lot at them in terms of sim stunts, things like that. He plays with very good awareness for a young player.

56:53And so when you combine some of the nuance that he plays with and the fact that he's really, he has a very good sense and awareness for like when a stone is coming back his way, he plays with really good help with his right guard, his left guard, just there are elements of his game that are a little bit more refined and mature than you might expect for a guy in his rookie year and somebody that people thought might have to move inside to guard in the NFL. Yeah. His, uh, I'm glad you mentioned the kind of the width of his frame because it just ties back to, you know, him and Campbell and you look at their wingspans.

57:25I mean, Campbell's like, what's his wingspan one percentile or whatever. And Campbell, uh, or excuse me, and banks is 90th percentile. Um, so it's just, you know, two different ends of the spectrum, even though their arm length is comparable, the wingspan is drastically different. So it's just like you have one guy on the high end of it, one guy on the low end. And I think that that actually, it does matter when it's that those two extremes. So you could definitely see that. I think that matters if he could just limit, just kind of, I would say add more variance to his strike package, if you will, and pass protection to be a little less predictable than I think, you know, he could, he could really turn into a player.

58:04So we'll see. At left guard, a couple really interesting names on here. The first one that you wanted to mention was Kingsley Sumataya. And so I'm just curious in your mind, like why he has transitioned and excelled, why he is kind of excelled or thrived in the transition to guard, maybe where he struggled at tackle as a rookie. Yeah. Just thinking back to last year at tackle, I remember he almost got Mahomes killed against Trey Hendrickson. And some of the issues that he had in that game was he was just opening up against the threat of speed way too soon and too dramatically to where his shoulders and hips were towards the sideline way too quickly.

58:43And it just allowed him to get beat across his face and be unable to anchor too often. He just looked uncomfortable and stressed when he was on an island in pass protection. And now that's essentially gone, you know, for the most part, especially with the way Kansas City plays and what they ask their guards to do. They really like jump setting their guards and playing aggressive and allowing them to get their hands on guys quickly. And that's really just kind of played into his wheelhouse and has allowed him to dictate terms to pass rushers a lot more. He still has some breakdowns here and there, but I just posted a clip, the Travis Kelsey touchdown last week.

59:21his rep he was one on one against a two i two technique i think it was javon kinlaw who was just trying to work right down the middle and suan matia was just rock solid and it was a it was a really nice block it was a key block um so like he's just a sturdy presence you know a guard now um and if he can continue to clean up some of the things that he's doing in pass protection i just think they you know kind of save that you know that one there you know as a high round pick you know, kicking him inside and then getting Simmons. I mean, I, I thought that that was a nice job of recoup kind of, you know, that, that draft allocation that they had on him.

59:57Another really surprising name that you had here as a, as a surprising left guard is Chris Paul from Washington. And that was one where I was Brandon Coleman, the tools for Brandon Coleman are enticing, right? I mean, Brandon Coleman is a big, powerful, explosive player. And so then moving Brandon Coleman to guard this year, I was excited to see how that went. And then we get three or four weeks into the season and Brandon Coleman is a healthy scratch against the Raiders and they move Chris Paul in at left guard. And now Chris Paul's playing like really good ball at left guard. And I think he's in his fourth season.

1:00:30And so the fact that they, you know, he's somebody that played a little bit in stretches, but obviously was not part of their initial plans in Washington to start the year. What about Chris Paul's play at left guard has been a little bit surprising to you so far? I mean, I remember watching Chris Paul in college. at I think it was Tulsa. And, you know, I just, I just, he played tackle. And I just thought, man, you know, he has, he's gonna have a long way to go just in terms of his technique and things like that. Just, you know, a big physical guy, but I didn't think he moved super well and all that.

1:00:58And now here we are four years later and, you know, gets, you know, Coleman gets benched and he's in the lineup and he's really solidified the line since he's been in there. He's a big physical guard who plays aggressive, but he knows how to kind of balance that out. But when he gets his hands on guys, I mean, he ends, he ends, ends reps quickly and he's a real force in the run game as well in terms of creating a lot of movement. Him and Tunsil have been awesome on double teams this year. So, you know, to, to kick Coleman out of the lineup like that. And now I think that position is firmly his Coleman got to play left tackle last week as Tunsil went out with the hamstring.

1:01:36But yeah, I mean, yeah, Chris Paul is just really, it could have went bad pretty quickly for them with Coleman not working out. His passport was really shaky those first few weeks. And then to put Paul on the lineup like they did and have it solidified, I mean, out of nowhere, kind of that that's been maybe the most surprising guy on all this entire list to me. And it goes back to the, what you said about Bobby Johnson earlier, like it just, there are some of these teams where you just get to a place where it's like, eh, we'll figure it out. Right. Like we may have to move some things around, but we will get to a place that you feel good about at some point over the course of the season.

1:02:12And the fact that Washington has kind of so quickly become one of those spots, I mean, that if you extend this to like a two year outlook has been one of the more surprising, impressive success stories with offensive line play in the league period over the last two years. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, we we know what we thought of Cliff Kingsbury coming in to Washington and having question marks there with how he's going to design things. And then Bobby Johnson coming off of the Giants situation and yeah, just 180. So yeah, their run game is awesome. And yeah, it's, it's been fun. The last guy I left guard you wanted to mention was Dylan Fairchild from the Bengals.

1:02:48Obviously it comes in as a third round pick, somebody that looked really good in the preseason, you know, somebody who's tape at Georgia was really fun to watch. I mean, that entire group at Georgia was fun to watch last year, but I loved watching Dylan Fairchild in college. So what about his play as a rookie has impressed you? he he's just looked a little bit further along than I was expecting because I you know I liked Rattledge a little bit more than him as prospects um just because I thought he was a little bit more polished uh but um Fairchild I've I've just been impressed with you know just his positioning and pass pro and um you know his spacing on a lot of stuff has been good and just overtaking uh stunts and twists and being in the right spot at the right time you know you know again it's not perfect He had that safety he gave up against Detroit.

1:03:32That was, you know, filthy move by Derek Barnes, you know, coming from depth and faking him out. But like, and then he's just coming off a knee. But like, and then another thing is the thing that I did expect to shine through eventually is one-on-one. He could just be a dude, you know, sometimes some of the reps he had against John Allen against the Vikings were awesome. Zach Allen in Denver, you know, sustaining blocks. I mean, just going at these guys one-on-one and just being very firm and kind of commanding against some of those guys. That's just, you know, stuff you love to see, even if he does have some breakdowns here and there.

1:04:09So I just think, you know, I'm pretty encouraged by what I've seen from Fairchild. The other guys you had as your all surprise team on the interior, Borlini and Gonsalves, who we've broken down so far already. The other center that you had, and I'm so glad the two guys that when you put them on here, I had to smile because to me, they've been two of the most. Chris Paul is another one to throw in there, but you had Cade Mays from the Panthers and you had Elijah Wilkinson at right tackle. And with seeing both of those, I was like, God, I'm so glad to see those because both of those guys, when you go back and you watch the Panthers and Falcons offenses specifically, Wilkinson is the third right tackle for the Falcons.

1:04:45Cade Mays is the backup center for the Panthers. And when I was watching that stretch where Austin Corbett was hurt in Carolina, Cade Mays was incredible in the run game for like multiple straight weeks. like the game he had, uh, against, I think it was the Cowboys in week six while going back and watching that game. I was like, who is this dude? Like the work that he's doing in the run game, some of the reach blocks, some of the combos with like him and Brady Christensen. So that's truly like one of the more surprising things about the NFL this year is like turning on the Panthers tape with the backup center and seeing how well that guy was playing.

1:05:20Yeah. I watched Mays coming out of Tennessee and he was just like a barroom brawler kind of guy, you know just you know hit or miss kind of in pass pro and um you know i liked him for what he was but i you know now that he's settled in and he's in again you know i think you have to mention kind of what he's being asked to do i think carolina is running the ball more than any team in the league and that's that's fits cade cade mays perfectly they're a downhill run scheme they're going at guys uh at defenders um a lot of vertical based double teams um cade mays is a big physical powerful guy who you know throws his weight around throws his hands around and he could miss you know sometimes kind of glaringly but you know when he's dialed in like this and asked run block a lot more than pass block and you know can play next to you know who he's playing next to you know Damian Lewis and Christensen like yeah man I mean the run game stuff's been awesome so he's he's just been fun to watch that's that that's all that's like an offensive lineman's delight there to watch, to watch him play football right now.

1:06:21And the right tackle you had was Elijah Wilkinson from the Falcons. And I had the exact same thought going back. And you know, there are moments where he's a third string player, right? He's a guy who's bounced around the league. He's played for a few different teams. Like he's not somebody reps. Yeah. I mean, yes. So you see the moment, the Bryce of the Niners game is the exact game that sticks out, but multiple different times going back and watching the Falcons this year, the fact that you didn't know the third string right tackle was playing for so much of the early part of the season. I think it's just, it says a lot about the play from Isaiah Wilkinson and Elijah Wilkinson.

1:06:53And again, the exactly what you said about Dwayne Ledford, the fact that this is a place where you're usually getting the most out of those guys. Yeah, this is a big time feather in the cap for, for coach Dwayne Ledford, I think, because when McGarry went down, I was really concerned, you know, because they obviously didn't have proven depth. I had watched Wilkinson going back years um back to i remember watching with the broncos and um different stuff in arizona right arizona yeah and just like you know i think those situations at the time were probably not like this situation in terms of some of the guardrails that are around him and things like that limiting some of those you know exposures and pass protection where he can really you know look you know like like an issue um but he's a big powerful guy who takes up a lot of space and if you put some guardrails around, around him and pass pro and you put them next to Lindstrom, um, you know, and just what, what Ledford has been able to get out of him this year, I think has been really impressive.

1:07:50Him and Chris Paul are probably the two big surprises for me, you know, that stand out even above all these other names this year. So yeah, just credit to them to, you know, keep the offense, you know, running as it typically looks with him in the lineup. It's, it's been really impressive. We could do this for like two more hours. And there are a few other things that I did want to hit, but I, we, we have to get out of here, but I, I sincerely appreciate, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to do this. I always, I always love chatting with you about this stuff. And again, I think that trying to figure out which of these groups has been better than you might've expected goes a long way in understanding why the league feels the way that it feels in a given year.

1:08:31And I think, and you specifically talking about like the Colts and the Seahawks and the Patriots. Like there are things beyond quarterback play that drive these offenses outpacing expectations or being a little bit worse than you might've expected. And it often comes down to which lines are better or worse than you anticipated them being. And so appreciate you digging into this with us. It's always great to chat with you. Please tell the people where they can check out the fantastic work that you were doing. Yeah. So social media, Brandon Thorne NFL, And then my sub stack is trench warfare dot sub stack dot com and then establish the run dot com and bleach report for all college scouting reports.

1:09:07I've said this a million different times. If you want to know more about this area of the NFL and football specifically, Brandon's work is just an invaluable resource. I mean, just going to teach you so much about these groups and just the quiet elements of the league that are defining whether or not teams succeed or fail. So please go check it out. I have been, I mean, probably like a pre day one subscriber, right? I have to be like one of the earliest Trent war trench warfare subscribers there are. And so I'm putting my money where my mouth is here. Sincerely encourage you guys to go check it out.

1:09:39Thanks a lot for the time, buddy. We'll talk to you soon.