💪 “How David Bar Flexed Virality” — Our Interview with Peter Rahal of David Protein

0:00I had this plan. It was around resurrecting Power Bar. And I just told enough people. And I told so many people that I had to do it. Your reputation was on the line. They're like, aren't you doing another bar, man? And then so I was like, all right. October 6th was my non-compete expiration. And as it got closer, I was like, all right. Let's figure this out. So then you launched David Bar. You're now back with the subject of today's show, the David Bar. Although got to point out before we dive in T-boy style to David Bar, you're operating in the same industry competing with your first company, RxBar.

0:34Is that like awkward with Kellogg? Was Kellogg pissed? Yetis, bust out your biceps, test out your triceps and crank up those calves. Because our guest today has created more protein than a herd of cows on leg day. Peter Hall is the co-founder of David Protein, the most viral food brand of the year. The name, David, it is inspired by the Renaissance sculpture and the subliminal message there. Eat David, get a 12-pack abs just like the statue. Less than one year since launching, David has hit a$725 million valuation. Jack, get this guy a cup. This business is going to have to take a steroid test.

1:14This company is so committed to protein, they launched a cod bar just to prove a point. It's true. Their latest protein bar, it's a filet of fish. And before launching all this, Peter founded a different protein bar, the RX Bar, that Kellogg was so thirsty for, they dropped 600 million bucks on it. Nick, Peter's taste for trends is so cutting edge, he's like a human knife. Jack, his instinct for branding is so far ahead, he's more artist than entrepreneur. Besties, please welcome to the pod, the prince of protein, the baron of bars. The lord of longevity. Peter Rahal is the co-founder of David Protein, and he's about to unwrap how he made the most viral product of the year.

1:57So, Yetis, sit back, relax, and pause that Pilates class, because today's interview with Peter is the best one yet. Wow. There we go. Okay, nice. Best intro I've ever received. Fantastic. Any fact checks? Are you going to... Prince of Protein, I'll take it. Is that going to show up on your LinkedIn now? You can run with it, Peter. That's my new title. So, Peter, you're actually the first founder we've interviewed whose first venture was illegal. Yeah. You sold drugs. I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if you could help us here, if you could frame this as a cringy LinkedIn post, what did selling marijuana in high school teach you about entrepreneurship?

2:38Cultivating and selling marijuana taught me to always have a nose for demand and see if there's demand in the market. If there's demand and you create supply, you have a great business. I've noticed the cannabis industry always calls it cultivate. I always get corrected when I say grow or produce. It's cultivating. Well, that's what you would put on a LinkedIn program, Jack. It reminds me of a line you once said we noticed in our research, Peter, which was great entrepreneurs can't break the law, but you have to bend the rules a little bit. Especially in anything innovation, it usually is that way.

3:13Now, a quick word from our sponsor.

3:19You know, Peter, as we were studying your background, we noticed you grew up in Chicago, raised just outside the city. Your parents were in the food industry, Lebanese immigrants, but you grew up thinking that you were not successful, like something was not working for you, right? It turned out you had dyslexia. Yeah, yeah. So, and the whole system is designed for procedural learning and reading. And so it took me more time. And yeah, I just more or less funded it and failed. Peter, we've heard that dyslexic people are overrepresented when it comes to successful founders of businesses. So maybe this is a funny question for you, but what can a not dyslexic person learn from dyslexics?

4:04So I'll define dyslexia because it's pretty abstract for someone who doesn't experience it. So I'll start with defining it. Yeah. And it's really hard to understand if you don't experience it, but here's how it works. So the dyslexic mind really struggles with anything in a sequence. So like reading is very sequential. It's a formula. There's a system, a letter. And then that sequence you have to follow. So like counting, sequencing of things, like paying the bills, for example, like that process is really hard. And what many dyslexic experience is that the brain sort of melue functions with that.

4:44And so the way dyslexics learn to read is typically memorization or visualizing the whole word. So when I read, I don't do it sort of phonetically. I memorize that word, and then I see it as a whole word, end to end. And so a lot of times the vowels in the middle don't mean anything to me. So instead of moving from left to right down the word and, you know, making out the sounds, you had to memorize every word? Basically. Yeah. Wow. It's sort of like going through school with a weighted vest. And so it's like you're going uphill. So you can often, they'll just develop a great work ethic. And then they also develop strategies to solve that problem.

5:24It's like making something harder. So it's like great training. Yeah. But then neurologically speaking, dyslexic are very good at association or pattern recognition. So connecting dots, also known as holistic thinking. So it turns out that's really good in entrepreneurship. And being a CEO, you need interdisciplinary skill sets to connect dots. So it's sort of one, there's an environmental component. And then second, there's a neurological component. So you, Richard Branson, Charles Schwab, all dyslexics who went on to pattern recognize your way into entrepreneurship. And it's just like outside the box thinking.

6:05I think it's helpful. I'm trying to think like, how can I connect the dots better? How can Jack become dyslexic? No, no, no. I mean, what is connecting the dots in business? It's just having like smart insights and then acting on those smarts and insights. Yeah, it's understanding the gist of why certain things work or why certain things don't work, and then being able to find those associations and then apply. Well, let's look at the first huge example of when you applied those instincts, which was your first legal business, RX Bar. You invented a radically clean protein bar in 2013, just four ingredients per bar, egg whites, almonds, figs, and one other item, maybe maple syrup.

6:50And you know, I love the RX bar. Sometimes I pause at the egg white because you got to cook that to make sure it's safe, right? How is an RX bar actually made? And like what keeps the ingredients stuck together in a bar form? So the egg whites are, they're pasteurized and they're dried so the water's removed. So they do go through a kill step. And pasteurizing is just like heating, right? Yeah, exactly. So that's a validated kill step. They're very stable. And then what binds them together would be dates. Wow. I assumed the egg white was the sticky part. Okay. Was it your Lebanese background related to the date inclusion there?

7:29Yeah. I mean, we grew up eating them. So that was a dot that I had, right? Like, oh, this is a great thing. It's used in other bars like Lara Bar. But yeah, I give some credit to my ancestry there. So what we were really fascinated with with RX Bar was how you came to market. Because Jack and I have a theory we call snobos. Snobo stands for S-N-A-B-O. Small niches are big opportunities. Yeah. I mean, Peter, you're a big CrossFit guy. Your small niche was CrossFit and like big rugby dudes who were just looking for pure protein to feed those muscles after a workout. Yes. Can you tell us more about how you delivered to that market early on?

8:11Yeah. So I went to a CrossFit gym and that was basically my petri dish to learn. So I would bring in samples, get feedback, process the feedback. And I remember we dropped off, you know, two boxes, 24 bars, and they sold out in like two hours. So we had really strong signs of product market fit in this little CrossFit gym. And actually the insight, you know, like entrepreneurship is like so fragile. If the wind blows the wrong way, you could die. Or the idea can die. And I remember at my gym, a Clif Bar rep, they got a sample of like 12 peanut butter Clif Bars, the energy bar, the original one.

8:55And I remember seeing them, it was like radioactive. No one would touch them. The reason why is because it was not paleo. Oh. And so I was like, oh, that's an obvious dot to connect. Like, oh, if I made one that was paleo, I bet people would like them. You know? Like, there's demand there. that was really the kind of the genesis of like all right there's maybe a market here and the other thing was like i remember looking at going to whole foods right like every sort of food entrepreneur's dream is whole foods and i remember looking at the category and then people have this reaction today it's like there's so much competition and i remember looking at it'd be like no way i can compete there like i don't even know how to get in there and so so i was like well i need a route to market and crossfit was booming and it was like a perfect route to market yeah because you're basically saying, yeah, I could have gone the general way and just like tried to get into Whole Foods, but then I'm like, I'm filled with a mess of other bars and I'm trying to stand out in this sea of brands.

9:52On the other hand, you just focus on CrossFit where everyone's rejecting the other bars out there, the Clif bars, and suddenly you can kind of get this deeper connection. Yeah. So it was, to your niche point, it was a perfectly, it was a totally uncompetitive market. no one else was allowed in you had the right of passengers to be paleo and we were the only ones that were pale you know Nick and I have always said the best markets to be in are the ones where there's no competition now it's hard to find a market with no competition but protein bars for CrossFitters who tend to be paleo there was no competition and you filled that void I thought you were going to share the three week experience you had with CrossFit now Peter you do go through this insane inflection point which is leading up to all this, you are packaging the bars in your basement with your mom.

10:43She's like misstamping the labels over here. The design kind of looked like it was made on PowerPoint. And then the inflection point is that you changed the packaging. The packaging became the product. What did you do differently with your packaging that really helped you take off? So the strategy was to be the bar of CrossFit, get to some scale, and then figure out how to compete in the broader market. Now, we had tried the PowerPoint packaging in some local smaller markets that were representative of the mature competitive market. And it didn't work. Like just lost in the sea of sameness. Totally.

11:30And so we're like, all right, we have to do something old. We can't follow the same design architecture that everyone does, like big brand name, claims, flavor. The only thing people cared about about our product is when we talked about it, it was like an RX bar is like eating three egg whites, two dates, six almonds, four cash. And actually, that calculus or the equation was on the back of the packet. Oh, that was the ingredient list is how people described your brand. I feel like that's reversed. Yeah. Yeah. And so we really dramatically needed to improve our communication of our value proposition to stand out.

12:11And we went for it and it was a bit of a contrarian thing because it was like the brand was super small. It's like a stamp on the upper corner. There was no appetite appeal. There was no really bad flavor communication. It was sort of like not good classically trained design for CBG. It was like actually not good. Um, but you know, a lot of communications inherent in the format, right? If you're in the bar set, you don't need to tell someone it's like obvious it's a bar. Um, brand kind of doesn't really matter, uh, that much. Um, so we just really chose, you know, strategies, choosing what not to do.

12:49We just picked the only thing that people care about and just went all in on that. The ingredients. So the RX bar just says the ingredients on the front instead of just on the back. And that's what caught people's attention. And does that first package, does it look pretty much the same as what we see today on the shelves? Yeah. So then the exit, four years later, that's it. You're like 30 years old. You sell the Kellogg for$600 million. Got to be like the fastest, biggest food exit since sliced bread. Right, Jack? Yeah. What's the first thing you did after selling the company for$600 million?

13:23Honestly, I just went back to work. Yeah, I didn't really do anything. Didn't really celebrate. I know this sounds psychotic perhaps, but... No champagne because you were keto at the time or something? Well, I think the real reason is myself as a shareholder sold, but I was the CEO and I still in my job. So I really decoupled. Founder doesn't mean anything. So as a shareholder, I sold, but I'm still the CEO and I didn't want to convolute. Those are two separate things. And I think entrepreneurs get in real trouble when they basically take advantage of those being an owner or something. So that's how I thought about it.

14:09And I wanted to show to my team that, nope, we're still going. Did you have a vested interest in their success at Kellogg? No, I had no economic incentive or anything, but I stayed around for just sort of ethically was the right thing to do. I stayed around for about a year and a half to transition it. Well, also, we got to point out this small legal detail here that actually has a big impact on your life. You had a five-year non-compete. Like for five years, you could not get into the bar business again. The only bar you could work for was the RX bar at Kellogg. Right. So like, what did you do with that time for five years?

14:45Are you bored? Are you testing ideas? Are you investing? Like, where are you going with this time? Yeah. So I was bored. Like, there's like this crisis of identity a bit because like I was the RxBart guy and now it's not me anymore. So that was annoying because I decoupled emotionally pretty quickly. And so I always, you know, I love business. I love projects. I love making stuff. I love being useful. so I kind of quickly started the journey of like all right what's next and then you know started wandering and then part of that like discovery process of wandering I do think is like investing learning about other companies different markets different sectors uh and then I like go towards an idea sort of chicken out and then like you know go towards an idea chicken out because like when I commit it's like you know I get sort of like pretty deep into something so I got like kind of fear of commitment issues.

15:43And then when the horizon emerged of the termination of the non-compete, I was like, oh, I have to do it. I guess I got to do this. Going back in. I'm the bar guy. And when my tombstone is going to say the bar guy, I'm totally okay with that. So were you telling people like, all right, I might do another bar. I'm thinking of bar ideas. Basically, what I did is I told enough, I had this plan. It was around resurrecting Power Bar. And I just told enough people. And I told so many people that I had to do it. You created pressure on yourself kind of accidentally. Yes. Indirectly. The momentum was unstoppable.

16:24Your reputation was on the line. They're like, aren't you doing another bar, man? Yeah. And that really happened. So what did you tell people? I'm going to do a better bar than the RX bar? I didn't say that. I don't compare it. I was just like, I got this plan. my non-compete's coming up. There's this iconic brand that has a lot of equity that is six feet underground. This is my idea and we're going to do it. And then so I was like, all right, October 6th was my non-compete expiration. And as it got closer, I was like, all right, let's got to figure this out. So then you launched David Barr. You're now back with the subject of today's show, the David Barr.

17:04Although got to point out before we dive in T-Boy style to David Bar. You're operating in the same industry, competing with your first company, RX Bar. Is that awkward with Kellogg? Was Kellogg pissed? They sold to Mars. I think right before I started, David, they sold. And so they were kind of checked out. You're not even like buddies with those guys anymore. You could have violated non-compete. Nobody would have noticed. I don't know about that. If I would have launched before, they would have. they would enforce it. Okay. So David Barr, you launched something. And as Jack and I are looking at David Barr, the most viral bar of the year, here's how we're looking at it.

17:46It kind of almost appears like you're doing the opposite of the RX bar, right? Like instead of four ingredients, it's like 40 ingredients. Instead of this simple colored packaging, it's all gold packaging. Instead of a kind of confusing name that alludes to CrossFit, it's named after a Renaissance sculpture. And it is hyper-focused on one thing, delivering you protein as efficiently as possible. I'm looking at the label right now, 28 grams of protein, 150 calories, zero sugar. Okay. So what made you create something that's the opposite of the first thing you created that you sold for millions of dollars?

18:22So in studying the market and studying consumers, the question is like, what do people really want in a protein bar? And what people really want is a protein delivery system with as much protein and the least amount of calories. So that's what we set up to design. And nutrition, I've been into nutrition since I was like 14. It's mostly emotional. It's not really intellectual. And so you see these passing trends of these restriction diets that don't have much logic. They're just, they're simple hacks to explain something. But they're fundamentally reducing calories or reducing, restricting something.

18:57Like nutrition has come a long way and we're sort of, I was just became agnostic to nutrition trends and more focused on some like principles underlying nutrition. And so the three principles that I follow for nutrition around first, the first tenet is really getting adequate amount of protein is really important. You don't have to overdo it, but like it's, it's, it's the most essential macronutrient. The other two are energy. And it turns out we have no problem getting energy in our society today. The second one would be calories do matter. Like, turns out just don't overeat calories. It's so, so important.

19:38Even if you overeat 200 calories every day, like after 10 years, it's a problem. So calories matter. And then three, don't over don't over consume sugar like you don't want that. And so those are the three principles that we use to design our nutrition phosphate and influence our product. Okay. So just to sum those up also for the Yetis listening, your three principles on fundamental food are getting adequate amounts of protein, calories do matter, and don't overconsume sugar. Yes. So those are the three things set on the package. Yeah. And that's what matters in a protein book. That's what you launched with David.

20:15And what are the latest numbers from David? Because it's been less than a year since you launched. but as of August 2025. What sales are you expecting for the first 12 months of the business? I think 100 million first 12 months. Our first full year will be around 150, 160. Wow. Once again, this product launched less than a year ago, besties. On pace for 150 million this year. Now a quick word from our sponsor.

20:44So the brand is called David. It's named after the statue that Michelangelo carved in Italy. It evokes perfection. I've never seen it in person. Nick has, and Nick has told me about it. I've gone back three times, Jack, because it left me breathless. Now, the David statue is chiseled. Is the subliminal message you will be too if this is your protein bar? Wait, was that a question? It was. It was. Whereas the answer, obviously, yes. Yeah, it's obvious. Yeah. Well, what is your fundamental philosophy here for a great brand, considering you're doing something so different with David Barr than you do with RxBarr?

21:24Brands kind of abstract. So I try to say, like, a great brand is, it's just identity. It's very similar to a human, right? What is its name? Who are his parents or her parents? What are their values? What language do they speak? How do they speak? What clothes do they wear? Who do they not like? What are their values? So the clearer those are and the more consistent you are, the stronger the brand typically is. And how did that lead you to a purely gold bar? Is there any psychology behind the way you guys have done something so different? Jack and I always say, don't be better, be different. You guys have created something different with a pure gold bar.

22:05It reminds us of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. So the big strategy, this is a very tactful one, but I think it's important. I think the audience will like it. So if you looked at the protein bar or nutrition bar market and the category, if you just shop it, it's actually defined by flavor, not brand. So for example, RX bar, for example, you shop it, it's organized by flavor, and then there's a small mark for the brand. So the brand is a secondary part of communication. Okay, I see this now, yeah. So our strategy, very taxable, was we want brand to be the primary communication. And so if you see her in the store, it's all gold.

22:46And so when you see it, it really works hard. It's called a brand block. And so that was like, no one else is doing that in the category. Leading with brand is the primary color and then communicating flavor as a secondary color. So that's a very intentional tactical thing. And what it does, it just works hard on the shelf. Yeah, like the rest of bars, and I think about it, they're all different colors to reflect the flavor. Red for raspberry, blue for blueberry. Yes. But you guys are just one color. And so you literally take up more eye space. Yeah. You know, like the categories, like it's very similar to like craft beer.

23:18If you go to like craft beer at Whole Foods, it looks like a kaleidoscope. Yeah. I'm just like, I'm just like, they all look good, I guess. And so that was very intentional, tactical thing. And then gold. So just like look up the meaning of gold. It's premium. It's luxurious. It's beauty. it's actually feminine. And so that was another tension point around like David's super masculine, protein's arguably masculine, but then gold is quite feminine. Yeah. And that's a beautiful, great brands have this beautiful tension. And so that's another component. Another tension point is that the David bar is best in market in terms of protein per calorie.

24:04So that's efficiency. Yes. But the statue of David is not efficiency. It's beauty and perfection. That's just another interesting tension point. Yeah, we wanted to objectively measure. So make something objective. Nutrition is super subjective and emotional. How do we make it objective? The way you should be looking at snacks or processed food is how much of the food's calories are coming from protein? The higher, the better. It's more value. And then if you do that, the outcome is beauty. The statue. you. Well, what was the second place idea behind David? That's a really good question. So David was clearly the outlier.

24:45There was really no second, but I think the second was like Pylon. Something like, I'm like, we're not getting any awards, but it won't kill us. That's the goal. Don't kill us. Sounds like it didn't get past the ideation phase. Peter, David Barr is the most viral food of 2025, not just because you recently hit a$725 million valuation, but because you launched fish, cod, fish. We covered this on the pod a couple months ago. Our takeaway when we covered it is that you are selling a virtue signal. Yeah. You showed the world just how committed you were to protein by offering a borderline ridiculous product.

25:33Because it wasn't about the product. It was about what the product signals, the pursuit of protein in a package. You basically made all your competition look like a snack bar, and you guys, a protein company. So we were curious, what's your takeaway? Why'd you guys launch it? A couple things. One would be, this is my second time, and I just want to do bold things a bit. and then as bold and then two it was a i think we thought it was like a clever riddle um to showcase the value of our core product like turns out getting 20 grams of like getting a lot of protein in a bar format like ours is really difficult and usually expensive and and another thing.

26:22So one, it communicates the value of a product. Two, there are people who are expecting RXBAR 2.0 who are like too many ingredients. And it's like, okay, don't eat a protein bar then because it's a processed food. So we wanted to come out with a single ingredient innovation that is more reminiscent of RXBAR. A filet of fish. And it just shows, yeah, it's expensive and inconvenient. And I think a lot of people underappreciate taste, convenience, and price. Okay. So you're kind of also showing attention here with your actual product. You're basically saying, okay, we're launching a codfish because if you want a single ingredient product, this is it and it's in one form.

27:10The best protein to calorie ratio of product out there. You're kind of challenging them to do it, right? It's like, okay, you don't want a processed bar? Okay, go have a codfish. And you still have to process it once you get it because you've got to boil it. Right. It's kind of like going on a double date and picking your ugliest friend to come with you to showcase how beautiful you are. You look better by comparison. Yeah, exactly. I'm thinking of all these times you invite me to dinner, Jack, with Alex. We also were curious though, Peter, you know, as you were brainstorming this idea to launch codfish as a protein bar company, were there some runners up?

27:42Like, were you guys considering bison? Were you going to ship steaks? Like, what else was on the drawing. Well, no, it was just this because when we launched the company, we wanted a comparison table and we didn't want to be number one. You can't believe the comparison table if you're number one. It just sort of throws it off the window. We want to be number two. And so this was really, credit goes to our Peter Atiyah for this. He was like, we can't be number one. And so he started searching for what is a better protein to calorie ratio product. And it was boiled cod. It's just funny because it's like cod.

28:16It's like a funny word, actually. And then it has to be boiled, which is like an unappetizing thing. And so it was just funny. And we left it there. That was our launch thing. It started getting picked up. And so then it was just like, all right, we should just start selling it. It's the best. So the sushi restaurant is on the year two agenda, is what you're saying. David Sushi. Don't just close our secrets. It's off the record. So Peter, you recently raised$75 million at a$725 million valuation. Incredible achievement for such a young company. So we were curious because we're also on our second company.

28:54We're second-time entrepreneurs in the same industry. How much of that valuation is simply because you're a second-time founder and you know what the heck you're doing this time? Probably, you know, I think having experience in a pedigree gives investors a lot of confidence, just demonstrating good judgment. So it certainly helps. And it also helps with the acquisition of Epigee because their team, we merged with them as well. So they had confidence in the leader that has the experience to do things. Yeah, so it probably had a lot to do with it. And let's talk about Epigee. Yeah, because we just talked about your viral moment.

29:33We should also talk about your most controversial moment. Let's do it. So you use that fundraise to acquire the critical protein supplier for your products. And interrupt me if I'm saying anything's wrong. EpiG makes, let's call it super protein. It effectively lets your protein bar have a higher protein-to-calorie ratio than any other ingredient. You acquire that supplier, and your competitors actually sue you for it on anti-competitive grounds, claiming you've created a monopoly. And then Jack and I noticed as we were researching the story, you actually said, we're taking all the supply of protein.

30:09Which was probably quoted verbatim in the lawsuit as evidence of the anti-competitive behavior. So because you got sued by your competitors, you bought the critical ingredient maker to so many protein companies, and it turned into a bit of a PR catastrophe. How do you feel about it? Any regrets or was it the right move? It was the right move. David is Epigee's biggest customer. We are running the businesses like it's a subsidiary, so it's standing alone. And David's the biggest customer. David has a contract to buy all the available supply. And we didn't expect this sort of demand or revenue. So, you know, building a ingredient supply chain takes a lot of time.

30:50And in general, for the company, it was a huge risk. It's not like you can go to other places to buy this ingredient. So securing the supply, buying them, and scaling the manufacturing of EPG was mission critical. It's almost like this is your rare earth metal, is this protein bar company. And if you're going to make computer chips, you need access to this random silicon by phosphorate. But you guys needed a protein company. So does EPG have IP protection and they're the only one who can make this stuff? Yeah, they have process patents and application patents. So it's intellectual property. Is there any possibility that you'd scale up production and sell to other companies?

31:31Protein as a service, basically? Yeah. We do. Once we get supply and capacity, we plan to run Epigee as its own business with its own goals. Right. I mean, it's a huge public health thing. If we can remove a ton of calories for the American diet, that's what we want to do. So you're going to go to court and be like, chill out, plaintiffs. We're going to scale up production. We'll eventually get to you. But right now, all our supplies go into the David Bar. Eventually, we'll become a pass company. Protein is a service. Well, let's talk about snobos again. Can you remind us of that abbreviation?

32:06Yes, I can, Jack. That would be small niches are big opportunities. And with RxBar, your snobo was... CrossFit. CrossFit users. So with David Bar, do you have a snobo? Is your snobo, considering these protein ratios, Ozempic users? It's certainly not comparable to Rx. Yes. Like our actions of CrossFit, the CrossFit niche was like 2 million people. The early adopters of David are probably around like 40 million people. You know, it's like people who are health conscious, people who listen to Etia and Huberman, you know, you could be Ozempic people or people who are trying to lose weight, people who are trying to get one gram of protein per pound of body weight.

32:47But it's not the same niche. I don't, it's pretty big market. So like, we didn't follow that strategy necessarily. Okay, so David Barr is going more mainstream than you did with RX Barr. Especially given that protein is... It's mainstream. Jack, you want to talk some numbers here? Well, let's talk your cap table. It includes Peter Attia, who you've mentioned already, and Andrew Huberman, the big health podcaster. How important do you think it is for founders to get strategic partners who have a vested interest in your success? Yeah, these like-minded, maybe highly influential investors like Huberman.

33:20So it depends. Of course, it depends on the game or the market or the marketing problem you need to solve. As it relates to nutrition, you know, I think it's really important from a credibility standpoint. And Dr. Atiyah is basically America's doctor. Like, he's going to have a voice for a long time. He's incredible. He's rigorous. He's really impressive. And then Huberman, I call him America's researcher. Like he synthesizes cool new things in health and wellness. He's going to have a voice for a long time. He's rigorous. He's incredible. So it certainly helps. And particularly nutrition, where there's this massive confusion.

34:00Like our society is totally confused on nutrition. Everyone with a mic sort of just talks about it. And so having authoritarian figures who are rigorous, I think is super, super important. Was it part of the strategy? Jack and I were curious, when you were brainstorming, I'm going to launch David Barr, we were like, I got to get Huberman involved. I got to get this big health podcaster involved on the team, invested and incentivized. Or was that just a happy accident? No, it was very intentional. So the way we think about it is like there are muses. You know how like fashion houses have muses they design for?

34:36There are two muses we design for them. Peter Atiyah and Andrew Huberman. Did they influence your launch? Did they say like, I'll get on board if you do this? uh i don't the relationship we have is like i don't we i we don't ask for stuff you don't want to be an annoying partner and be like can you do this like but i love this vision i mean there's something very kind of like italian 15th century renaissance of you guys between the muses and the sculptures like there's an artistic way of thinking about the whole company beyond entrepreneurship yeah like what i love about the business and the market we're in is It's this beautiful combination of art and science.

35:19And I love that. Well, when it comes to trends and working out, I should point out, Peter, Jack always used to bench press me in college. Jack always used to spot me on the bench press in college because he could bench so much more than me. I actually would need support if I were helping him out. But we've noticed these trends throughout our lives. You know, boomers were focused on diets as their primary form of health. Millennials focused on wellness. Gen Z seems to want to live forever. So are we experiencing a new shift today into longevity? And is David Barr a part of that? Yeah, I'd say so.

35:54And it's probably driven by boomers getting old and dying. You know, like, so it's not, I don't think it's Gen Z. And there's a lot of influential people shaping that, you know, Brian Johnson, Tia. So I don't see it going away either. But these things come like they peak and then slow down. I don't know what's next, though. I think that's the right question is like, what is next? Where does this meander to? Because that's always fun to predict, but I don't know where it's going. We love your theory that you need three moats to have a sustainable, defendable business. Can you share with us your three moats theory?

36:29Yeah. Like, you know, you've talked before about competitive advantages. You can't just rely on one anymore. Yeah, I would say it's really important. in consumer goods. One of them is brand, which is abstract and takes a long time. And it's very hard to build a brand. You've got to be super consistent. Brand is one. Another one would be sort of, call it sort of distribution, like scale, trade secrets even. That's a fragile mode. I think it's even cross it. And then the other one would be IP, intellectual property. Could be a form of trade secrets. But those are the three moats. And that was on the pitch deck that got you that fundraise, the$725 million valuation.

37:12Brand, trade secrets, and IP. I'd love to hear that you have all three of those things. How'd you guys get the deck? Page 15. By the way, Peter, why do you think you need three moats now? Why has that changed in the last 20 years? Why do entrepreneurs need to be able to defend themselves so deeply with a huge moat? The reason why is, especially in American culture, there's always this insatiable need for novelty. So the key sets in, food, fashion, people want new stuff. You constantly have to do novelty. And then it's kind of easy to make stuff. So like someone's going to copy you and what that does, it just destroys your margin.

37:50You're competing on price. Yeah, it's violent. The dupes coming after David. But Peter, we're actually on the same wavelength here, right? Because you just mentioned two of the three Fs, right, Jack? One of our long-held theses about the markets is that there are three industries most vulnerable to fads. You named two of them already, but they all start with an F. Fashion, fitness, and food. The three Fs of fads. Nick and I have been covering business news for 15 years, and we have seen fads every couple years in all three of those. It's wild how consistent that the thing of the moment is not going to be the thing of the moment in a few years.

38:27We're still Peloton shareholders, for example. We're hoping for a comeback there, but who knows? We even knew during the IPO for Peloton, like we looked at NordicTrack and we even asked the Peloton co-founder, are you just the current NordicTrack? He's like, of course we're not. Seems like he was. Someone owes us some money. But even in the food industry, your core customer has moved through food fads from paleo to keto to fasting to carnivore. So we were curious, why is protein not a fad? Why would protein be a long-term trend or is it not? uh two reasons the first one it protein isn't just for bodybuilding the evidence is like super clear it's like the most valuable macronutrient it's great for weight or weight management or body composition it's the most satiating one um so there's so much value in it unlike fat and and carbohydrates which are just energy and again it's easy to get that so So there's like a clear understanding and there's a health component to it.

39:26And so regardless of where health goes, it's pretty stable. It's pretty evidence-based that protein is that important. And then the second one is you go to Google Trends, Plata, Paleo, Keto, Fasting, Carnivore. You see some sort of viral spike and decline. protein would just be a slow ascend and so the faster something grows the more likely it is to die the slower something grows the least likely it is to die interesting so you might feel that protein's peaking right now and it's sure it's sure it is like it's accelerated compared to its past year over year but this has been a long slow journey um of awareness and it's not And it's also objective.

40:17It's measurable. It's objective. It's not like an emotional thing. Peter, Nick mentioned Ozempic earlier. We were curious if you were targeting Ozempic users. But we actually have another thesis that Ozempic is not just any old drug or any old fad. We think this is kind of a once-in-a-generation thing. And it's possible that the introduction of these GLP-1 drugs makes protein not a fad. Let's call it a permafat because Ozempic is here for good. And we know Ozempic users crave protein. Yeah, so we don't market to Ozempic. And kind of here's the reason. If you take Ozempic, the first message you're going to get is make sure you eat protein and do resistance training.

41:07that will mitigate the downsides of a sun pick. So that messaging is what everyone's, every doctor is talking about. And so we don't really need to, we're just sort of surfing that wave. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's kind of downer messaging. A couple other questions for you, Peter. What's the most important failure you've had in your career? Because right now we've talked about all these incredible successes. I'm no stranger to failure. Okay. Well, the most important failure was my first marriage. It just taught me a lot and taught me how to be a better person and sort of was like a painful mirror into my weaknesses.

41:53What did it teach you? um seek feedback slow the fuck down be more compassionate you know i focused so much my career on my career in my 20s i didn't wasn't able to really develop some like personal stuff as much and then it turns out like to be good in your career you need like a good home like just shifting some of those like some of my focus towards making sure my home and like personal life is good it was important if you go home to chaos you're not going to be good you're you're just going to be distracted at work or you're just not going to have the energy. Nick and I were side hustle entrepreneurs.

42:29We had a full-time day jobs in finance when we started this company. And I was constantly just moving a million miles an hour. It was hard to ever relax and not be reactive and be proactive. And yeah, I feel like I had a breakup, not a marriage breakup, but a breakup where it was absolutely just a moment where I was like, Jesus, I need to stop, pause, reflect, and think to myself, should I keep doing the things I'm doing? Because I'm just so constantly in cruise control, trying to get to inbox zero, trying to tackle that task. I feel like I've had a moment of just like, pause, reflect, decide should I keep doing this?

43:16Sometimes going slower to go faster. You know, in this journey you've been on, because, man, you've been on such an entrepreneurial journey. Like, just, you know, beginning with your family in the food industry, and then for you to get such a huge exit in the food industry, and then to come back, take a second swing, and hit another home run, really a grand slam. Like, you just mentioned this. Like, you go so hard and so intense. You did CrossFit. But are there things you just get obsessed with that you care about beyond a reason? Yeah, I'm really focused, really obsessed. And then I just remove stuff like laser-focused prioritization.

43:59And that's why when I was looking for my next move, I had this commitment fear. Because I knew if I go down that path, it's like fucking me. You're in it. I'm always coming out. You are in it. and um so yeah just like i'm just very intense i think i was born that way or maybe i have a chip on my shoulder environmental and you know in nature i don't know i know you mean peter because like one reason i didn't do drugs growing up is because i know i get so intense about stuff it would have been a problem yeah now a quick word from our sponsor

44:36you know another thing jack i want to share with you as we were researching the story and we care about our subjects and go really deep on on trying to understand them but there's something we really admire about you and it's the way you you act publicly like on linkedin which is how we first became familiar with you you know we noticed your comments are just real snarky there's nothing corporate like there's no pr person holding you back like there's one post we saw remember this Jack, where someone commented that David Barr was going to fail because the founder, Peter, the co-founder, Peter, has no patience.

45:11And you commented on that post making fun of you. And you said, yeah, I got zero patience. We were like, that's amazing. Like what other company would let someone do that? But you're just wrong with it. Where does that come from? Is it a strategy or is it just personal fun? It's a little bit of personal fun, but like honesty is like a really important value of mine. I just have to be honest. I can't lie. And then I saw that guy posted that. LinkedIn's hilarious. And so I just like, you know, I wasn't tagged in it either. And so I just saw it. I'm like, he's basically saying the cause of distraction is Peter Boer.

45:53And I'm like, it's funny because I'm actually crazy focused. but I am totally impatient. So I just thought it was funny. We'll drop a link to Peter's LinkedIn in the show notes. So Peter, we do know that you're obsessed with protein efficiency in your products. What's something about David that you're obsessed with that might surprise people? I'm obsessed with the nuances of the product that are just getting the texture right. Texture and flavor right is what I'm obsessed with. How did you get chocolate chips in there without adding sugar? Yeah, they're protein chocolate chips. Is that one of your remotes?

46:36Yeah, that's a tracing remote. Oh, so can we not share that publicly on the pod? No, you can. That's slide 16 in the deck. It's one of those things where you can try to make protein chocolate. It's really hard. Yeah, you're like, good luck, guys. Jack, as we're like, listen to all this. It's funny. You just said, Peter, that it's not simple. But one theme of yours, and you just mentioned this with being honest and the honesty that you love, and sharing that really powerful detail about your first marriage is simplicity. Like with RX Bar, the whole brand was about simplicity. David Bar, for all the ingredients, it comes down to a very simple concept.

47:15The way you interact with other people publicly, unlike any other CEO, it's driven by one thing, honesty. It's simplicity. Is simplicity like your love language? I don't know who quoted this, but I use it all the time. If I had more time, I'd write a shorter essay. And I think like getting to the gist is a real skill. Just the way my brain is, or I don't know why, but I love getting to the essence of something. I think making things simple is an art and I think it's really important in business and communication. Yeah. So I would say simple, I love simplicity. Peter, we'd love to bring you down with some rapid fire questions.

47:57This show is called The Best One Yet. So we want to ask, what are your best ones yet? What industry is begging for its David Barr viral codfish moment? Chocolate. It's boring. What is your dream David collab? David, Emily Ratatowicz. What snack do you always have stocked that isn't a David Barr? Dried mangoes. That's high sugar, man. Who's the best business leader you admire the most? I look it up to Jeff Bezos as a manager. I think organizationally, what he did at Amazon is like as a model I look at. And then Elon actually as a leader. I think his messaging, communication, missions, and his cultures are really hardcore, but like super focused.

48:44What's the best lesson you would share with other second-time founders? It's all about people. The connections you made? No, recruiting the best talent. And that's what it's about. I got one more, Jack. I got one more. Peter, what is the best cheat day you've ever had? I perform gluttony with pizza. In Chicago, Deep Dish, just that's the best cheat day. Tuesdays are for Deep Dish. Yes. Finally, we always let our guests tell us the takeaway on the show. So, Peter, can you tell us the takeaway on David Protein? The takeaway is we've designed a scud missile of protein that is ridiculous. And we have a lot of great stuff coming and building a generational company.

49:34Blink twice if one of them is a sushi restaurant, Peter.

49:39For those listening, may have been a blink. Mark McGuire would have hit 80 home runs if you'd just taken David Barr. And they would have brought him off the hook. All right, Peter, this has been a really fun conversation. We love how fresh and unpolished and let's say unfiltered your responses have been. We think that that's what makes for a compelling person and a compelling leader these days. Thank you for getting so personal with us too and for sharing all these things, from what it's like growing up with dyslexia to your marriage to what you're obsessed with, which is everything you're building right now, which is incredible.

50:13Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Really appreciate your time. Love your guys' show. Thank you.

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