‘Hamnet’ and the 10 Best Performances of 2025. Plus: Kleber Mendonça Filho on ‘The Secret Agent.’

26:36And then when the child does start crying, I'm getting really emotional as you can see, but the wonder and the fear and the what's going on in her face is like, you can't reproduce. That is astonishing. You can't like reproduce it. Sorry, excuse me. So it clearly really worked on me. But I also at the same time, I'm like, I don't know if I think the characters are very good. Like I think just the actual, like the ending scene where it's leading with her improv. I mean, I think it's the most amazing thing. And I think when she reaches out, again, I'm going to start crying. Like, it really works.

27:16But until that moment, I'm like, does this person have a head injury? Like, what's going on? Like, there is something that is so in conflict between their performances. And these two people on screen are so talented and so able to communicate, not even ideas, really, just emotion. And I think that's astonishing and an accomplishment. But I don't know if they are always tied to ideas or, like, the schema of a film. I don't disagree. I think it's like a very, again, I don't want to sound too sort of woo, but it feels a very primal performance. You know what I mean? They don't feel like fully formed characters.

27:51They feel like sort of elemental emotional. I do sound very woo talking about that. But I like that works on me. But I don't disagree with the critique that these don't feel like real people. This isn't a like biopic of William Shakespeare where you're going to walk away and saying like, I really understand who William Shakespeare is. Yeah. That's not what this film is reporting to do. All of that until they get to Hamnet and like the actual architecture of the novel is like straight up embarrassing. Like with the exception of the scene in which like Paul Meskel is doing as Shakespeare is doing Hamnet rehearsals and it's Noah Jupe is playing Hamnet.

28:32Yeah. And he keeps correcting him and then he does it. And that was the one time where I was like, oh, yeah, Paul Meskel is trained in the theater and can do Hamlet if he needs to do Hamlet. It's one of my favorite scenes in the movie. Yeah, it's really great. And he's really good in it. But every other winking—I mean, they jam in the rest of silence somewhere. Rosemary for Remembrance. I'm sorry. Do they have him recite to be or not to be in the book? I don't remember it. But I almost—and it's not Paul Meskel's fault. But what are we doing? Well, yeah, I mean, it literalizes this idea of mortality that's in that speech where he's literally standing before the water and considering whether to give himself over to the earth, you know, and that's like kind of a big theme of the movie is we are a part of the earth and we are like coexisting and we are meant to be living inside of trees and on the open land.

29:17But we're not. We're like these kind of savages who build and destroy. And that's just a huge thing in all of Chloe Zhao's movies. And she's trying to like kind of hammer that, I think, on top of the dramatic framework of the novel and the characters. I don't know. Meskel to me does not emit vibrant wit. And like that is something in Shakespeare that I think is a kind of vital component. You're a Joseph Fiennes guy. I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that. Even though there's a little bit of Shakespeare in love in this movie. Maybe not enough, actually. Maybe not enough like zip in the film. But I think when it is attempting to really make you feel, it really works.

30:00I'll tell you another scene that I really liked that was along those lines was when he's writer's blocked and he's drinking and he's sitting at the desk and he's like, I've had too much to drink and he just doesn't know what to do and he's just kind of like got his head in his hands and she's trying to help him. There's nothing that she can say to him to help him. You know, we've all been there. You know, like it happens. That's a very relatable moment in that movie. It was interesting to me to hear what you guys thought about this because there is inside of this a story that I feel like you both really respond to, which is like the great man burdened with greatness.

30:32The like, I have to create the bomb or play table tennis or whatever it is or else I'll die. You know what I mean? And so like that part of it is like, I have to go to London or I'll die. It's true, but that isn't what the movie is. Like that is an idea that is in the movie, but this is not William Shakespeare's movie. It's Agnes' movie. Right. And I more or less agree with all of the plaudits that Jesse Buckley is receiving. Listeners of the show know Jesse Buckley is one of my favorite actresses alive. I think she can do anything. I think she is absolutely magical. And I think she pretty much puts the movie on her shoulders in the final hour.

31:08But it's interesting to have William Shakespeare and all of his words and works be so center of the structure of the story, but then not feel his energy, I guess. You know, maybe up until that final 20 minutes when, of course, like literally watching his work performed and then intrinsically woven into his life. Maybe some people will say they closed it, like they landed the plane, they nailed it. But for the first hour and a half, I was like, this doesn't even feel like Shakespeare at all to me. That thing that you're talking about in terms of like that, which I usually hate, I have an analogy to, that Magpie sort of, it's in Blue Moon a lot and it really bothered me in that movie.

31:45That sort of like, oh, I'm going to take that, I'm going to take that. Adam, take that and put this into this great piece of work that you're all familiar with. But there are there's there's a purpose to it inside of this one because it's important for her to recognize these shared things that have been in their lives that are now inside of this play. So like it had a purpose to me more than a clever winking winking. You know that this is a line from Hamlet and that actor instruction scene. That's a Hamlet scene. You know what I mean? So there's just like there are ways in which it hits you like an anvil.

32:13And then there's a way in which it's sort of more subtly woven in in a way. But like that kind of thing usually really bothers me. You know, sometimes it works and sometimes it really, really does not. As in the to be or not to be seen. And then when they make poor Joe Allen, long suffering Joe Allen, just to show up and be like, we are looking for William Shakespeare. I mean, it's real, you know, Leo, you know, once upon a time. Like, yeah, we know. We know who it is. Let me tell you briefly about my two movie going experiences. This normally wouldn't be very interesting, but I'm going to share it.

32:45The first time I saw it, I saw it on the lot at Universal. And it was at a theater I'd never been to before. And I got lost. And on the way to getting lost, I ran into Mia Lee Vicino, who works at Letterboxd, a friend of mine. And she was also lost. And we didn't know where the fuck we were going. And we were very confused. We were kind of laughing. Like, oh, yeah. And like, in theory, this is a huge movie. But we're just like stuck in the middle of this giant corporate park. And we walk in and we were like 38 seconds late to the movie. And we sit down and it's a weird screening room with like 25 seats.

33:12But they're kind of half couches, half lounge chairs. and you know that might have been part of the reason why I was a little bit disengaged at the beginning of the film and then the film ended and I saw Mia and we were both just like real mess like really like fuck like this really hit me hard you know I think there's some very obvious parental parallels if you have a kid and you see what happens to Hamden in the movie it's really really hard to watch I mean and then they also you know they literalize the the Hamlet's father's ghost thing. Yes. And they have... So let me use that as an entree to my second screening.

33:48So I saw the movie a second time last night at the Regal Paseo in Pasadena. It was me and about 13 other people. Yeah. And we're watching the film all the way through and we get to the final 20 minutes of the film and there's the moment when the ghost emerges and starts speaking to Hamlet. And then the moment when the ghost is leaving the stage and she says, turn around, come back, turn around. And right at that moment, the emergency alarm went off and everyone had to leave the building. Oh my God. Now this was strange. So we went through the emergency exit in the movie theater and we walked into this sort of back hallway, which was kind of an unfinished basement kind of vibe.

34:27And we went out to find one of the emergency exits to go out into the plaza of the movie theater. And as soon as that door opened, it sounded like there were gunshots. So the person who opened that door ran. And then everyone who was in my movie theater ran out. Now, it wasn't gunshots. It sounded like it was actually maybe ultimately just a truck loading. But because the emergency alarm had gone off, everyone was really freaked out in tents. And we were at the most critical emotional moment of the movie. The people who were coming out of the emergency exit with me in tears. So we go down the other end of the hallway and we go around the exit and we get out into the plaza.

34:59And then we go back to the lobby of the movie theater. And, of course, we enter the lobby of the movie theater. And the guy who's working there says, oh, sorry, false alarm. so the movie has been like effectively ruined for these people yeah yeah and for me i was like i have to go home i'm not gonna wait for them to rerun the reel i've already seen this film i know i know it's happening in the last five minutes of the movie but all the other patrons did go back inside and watch the movie and i was thinking about that and kind of like um a movie's power and how the movie the second time just felt way less effective to me because when that moment happened, it dawned on me how not emotionally crushed and devastated I was in those final 20 minutes.

35:36And I was looking around at people who felt the way that I felt in July when I read into Mia afterwards and I was a mess. And then a second viewing does not make a film better or worse specifically. Rewatchability is not the clearest metric, but I was reflecting on it because I didn't know anything in the story. And so not having read it, I was like, part of what really worked on me was just revelation, was just understanding what influence this experience had on Shakespeare. I presumably, you guys can tell me if that's accurate or not, if he wrote Hamlet through this experience of loss. Yeah, but - According to the novel, at least, which again - Well, no, according to history, his son Hamlet died, he wrote Hamlet.

36:15That happened. That's what we know. Yeah. So I think for me, just for me personally, I think all of those things coming together, the loss of a child, the way that you process Arthur grief, the way that this character in particular kind of couldn't find a way to connect with the people he was closest to, but could connect with the artist who could realize his vision. Yeah. All that is fascinating. And then once you've got it, I got it. I just, I, you know. Yeah, interesting. I will say, my second viewing, also at the Regal Paseo, but in the morning and no emergency. A fine film. Yeah. I was kind of like, it's not going to get me this time.

36:49Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it was like 11 a.m. after the Golden Globes nominations and I was just like, I got this, I got this. And even going through the Globe scene, I was like, no, they will not. They won't touch me. And once Jesse Buckley reaches her hand out and then everybody reaches their hand out, I was like, well, there is something very primal here. Like, I'm gone. I got that. So I do think that they locate something very powerful in that last scene. What I think is really interesting, I love the discussions you guys have had this year about there are so many movies this year that are about being a parent, right?

37:22There's a lot of mom movies, a lot of dad movies. There's something I'm not a parent. I have no plans to become a parent. And there are sometimes those movies that are so focused on parenting that can be slightly alienating to someone who hasn't had that experience. And I just don't think that that's true of this movie because they're tapping into something true about grief and true about art that is universal. I totally agree with that. I did want to talk a little bit about the Max Richter aspect of the film. Dirty pool, honestly. Celebrating composer. There is lots of original music in the film from Richter.

37:53the musical cue in that moment when Agnes reaches forward and there's this big swell and thrum and the theater and the power of Hamnet is being conveyed on the nature of daylight is playing on the soundtrack which is previously recorded music that we've heard before in films and television shows and is a bit of a considered a bit of a cheat sheet if you're trying to get skeleton keys yes yeah if you're trying to get people to feel things so you said dirty pool I did think so I love this movie. I wept through that. When that track started playing and this moment where I was already, they had me.

38:30I was like, you didn't need to though. You didn't have to add on the nature of daylight on top of this. But Jesse Buckley said in a, I think it was a THR variety interview that she was like processing the scene they shot over eight days and she was listening to that track in her car. And she was just sort of like, this is the one. So there was like at least a slightly honest organic way in which it came into the mix but i i eight days i know you imagine yeah but i i still how many times did paul maslow have to kick himself in like white goo but like i think that um i think it would have been maybe even stronger to have an original piece of music there that we could forever identify with just that moment and when we hear it when you hear that Max Richter score going forward.

39:14We're like, oh, it's the end of Hamnet score. It's going to get me, you know. Is it possible, though, that this becomes what that piece of music is best known for? Because most people don't know that. Most people don't really know this piece of music or wouldn't be able to name it at least or identify who composed it. And there was a part. And I think that maybe dovetails a little bit with a conversation about kind of what this film is going to be and what it is. I just think Arrival sort of owns it. That's what I think. And, you know, I wish that Arrival. Arrival had a broader acceptance rate in the world at large.

39:47Okay. It was a successful film, though. Sure. Yeah. I feel like for the big pick audience, Arrival is like one of the great, like, should have been sort of movies. A thousand percent for me. It's Amanda's favorite Nolan movie. Yeah.

40:07I guess you're right. and I guess I guess Villeneuve going on to become like a huge deal means that maybe that movie has like a little bit more of a I feel like it's always brought up as like a legacy books or something yeah but I'm kind of curious what's gonna what's gonna become of this film in particular like a movie like this 30 years ago would make 200 million dollars well that's because Harvey Weinstein would be behind it and he's not and so I'm actually you know from Telluride Jesse Buckley was anointed as she's gonna win best actress right I no longer feel that that is certain. And a lot of that has to do with sort of the way the campaign has already been orchestrated.

40:45I don't think they figured out a way to talk about this performance. Rose Byrne coming? Rose Byrne is so far kicking at her heels. You know what I mean? And so I don't know, though. I've watched a lot of TikToks of her and Paul Meskel doing absolutely every single charming thing possible. Oh, they are. I mean, they're doing the work. I think over time. I hope that's true. And I hope as more and more people watch it. But to that sort of communal viewing experience, I think if you see it in a theater with other people, this movie has you and Jesse has you. Like Jesse makes the case for herself. If you see this movie theater.

41:18Yeah. If you watch it on a screener at home, middle of the day, if you're an awards voter and you didn't go to the theater. And this is something I always think about with awards. Like, does this hit the same way if you got if you got bored by the first hour and a half and you're not in it and the ending happens and you're just sort of like, OK, it happened. Do you know? I'm not I'm really not sure I think part of the reason why at least from an awards perspective it has a strong chance to do well is it is a counterpoint to a lot of the other films that are at the top of the heap which are very male I think it's gonna be nominated across the board I don't I'm not I don't doubt that Chloe's gonna be nominated I don't doubt that it's gonna be nominated for best picture I the mentality I had from an awards point of view which is not maybe the most useful way to think about anything but that Jesse Buckley was gonna win and that was going to stand for the we're honoring Hamnet with Jesse Buckley winning.

42:06And then one battle is going to take everything else. That was my perception as well. And I just, the last couple of weeks I've just started wondering if it doesn't feel as cemented as like the Renee Zellweger out of Telluride narrative did or something like that, where it's just sort of like we're running the board. So strange. It was bizarre. Maybe the single weirdest one. To this day, I don't understand how that happened, but she doesn't have like the Olivia Coleman. I can just like talk my way to a win for something like this. The Mikey Madison, I'm new. Isn't this interesting and exciting?

42:36The, I have a long career and you're awarding me for my long career. She's somewhere in the middle and it's a challenging campaign. And I think she's amazing. She's given some great speeches. She's been awarded in a lot of festivals and I'm pulling for her. And I want her to go all the way because I love her and I think she's incredible in this. I don't know. It's interesting that you say that. I still think it's her all the way down, but to me, I feel like weirdly Chase Infinity has as much of a chance to upend that narrative. The Rose Byrne performance is incredible. We've talked about If I Had Likes, I'd Pick You.

43:12That's still a very small movie. No, I agree. That's a hard movie just to get through to your screener point. I agree. I agree. Whereas I'm not sure if Chase Infinity even is really in a lead actress role in One Battle After Another, but she's running a very good campaign right now. And she is the Mikey Madison discovery for this year. The only thing about, to Joanna's point about if you're sitting at home in the middle of the day trying to get through your screeners to vote, you can watch 30 minutes of If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You and understand that Rose Byrne is doing amazing things and then turn it off.

43:44And I think Jesse Buckley's, yeah, she's walking in the woods. I mean, she's wonderful. I think that, you know, she is your favorite, Sean, but she's a lot of people's like secret favorite. I think there are a lot. There's a lot like she's Meryl Streep thing. Yeah, a lot of people have been waiting to vote for her, I think. She's already nominated. That's going for her. Yeah, I agree. I think there is like a little bit of a collective amongst cinephiles and people in the industry that's just like she has chosen one energy and this would be a way to kind of get, almost like get that out of the way early.

44:14It's like, let's just be cool with every time she shows up in a movie, she's really great. Yeah. You know, but she's not like a proper star. That's kind of why I compare her to Meryl Streep. And she doesn't want to be. Right. You know what I mean? And so that's... I didn't even know that she had a kid. I didn't even know she had a partner. Like, I don't know anything about her is my point. Like, even though she's somebody who I will always watch in a movie, but I learned it afterwards because she talked about it, about making this film and being a mother. But that's one of those things where like, usually you know a lot about the people that you're really interested in when you host a show like this.

44:44Sure. I didn't know anything about her. She was pregnant when she walked on stage at Comic-Con. Not Comic-Con, CinemaCon, whatever. And I said to you, oh, good for Jessie Buckley. She's pregnant. She's wearing a lot of loose menswear. No memory of that. I mean, I just said I'm happy for her. Is Timothee Chalamet a father? No, no, possibly. Stepdad. Yes, that's a really good point. Not possibly. The dad is stepdad. They made their public debut this week. I still don't know if he's met those children, but different conversation. Me too. I doubt it. Yeah. Is Tyga the father? No. Isn't it Travis Scott?

45:20Sure. Kylie Jenner, Travis Scott, right? That sounds right. This is not my area of expertise. Do we want to talk about Hamlet more? No, I'm just kidding. What else do you want to say about Hamlet? Anything else? I don't think so. I think I've made the best case I can possibly make for this movie. I think you made a great case for it. And I think, honestly, if you just watched the last half hour, you know, you might get it. but I don't recommend that be the way that you ingest a piece of cinema. I wonder if you watch just the last hour though. But I would recommend going to like... When are you recommending people turn it on?

45:55Like what scene... 4 a.m. No, what scene turns it for you? You have to see Hamnet like alive. Well, there's a really interesting scene where Hamnet wakes up and he discovers Judith in bed, his sister. Yeah. And she's ill. and the camera is sort of very gently moving to the right in that room. And, you know, Zhao creates this sense of dread in that sequence and it's really effective and it's very simple what she's doing but, you know, if we didn't mention Jacoby Jupe, like he's incredible as Hamlet. For a young boy to be giving a performance like that is amazing. He's so good. And Noah Jupe, his brother playing Hamlet, is incredible.

46:38And there's the moment of reaching out from the audience, right? Because Agnes is having this personal response to this art and then has sort of swept the audience in with her personal response. And they're reaching out. And Noah Zup, as Hamlet, his moment of being an actor and seeing his impact, even though he doesn't even understand the full context of his impact and is sort of like shock, but he continues the performance. Noah Zup is like a stealth weapon of this movie. I think that not enough people are talking about. I just think he's really good. but um that the the camera that you're talking about um chloe java has talked about how zone of interest was a huge inspo for the way she framed this movie and that she wanted it to make it feel theatrical so she's giving you the whole there's not a ton of close-ups other than like a few that you've mentioned there's a lot of things that happen in the center of a of a wide frame there's a very memorable shot where um you see will and hamnet and hamnet goes around the corner of the house, but the house is almost like, you're almost seeing like the triangle of the house between the meeting point of the two sides and the kind of the distance between them just going around that corner.

47:45It is, Lucas Zal, like you can see him bringing his very particular eye to framing that sort of thing. And the other Chloe Zhao films don't really have that particular visual sensibility. Then like the camera is much more flowing. It's much more like in the sequence where Hamnet does die, where it's like very handheld, sort of like moving in and out of focus. Yeah. And it feels like very rough. That's a really hard scene to watch emotionally. But from a filmmaking perspective, that feels more like Nomadland to me. So it's this interesting collision of styles where like Lu Zhao is trying to evolve somehow.

48:19But she's trying to maintain like what makes her her. It's a little, I think part of why I bump on the movie a bit is that it is, it feels like it's kind of like a work in development for her. Even though it's so emotionally brutal and direct that to be trying to like evolve as a director with material that is this big is a little, is difficult to pull off. That's why I think it's correct to honor this movie by giving Jesse Buckley an Oscar and not, I mean, there was some early fears in Oscar season that Hamnet was going to come and steal the thunder from one battle or something like that. It doesn't really feel that way right now.

48:55It doesn't seem that way anymore. We've had it at number two in Best Picture Power Rankings, but I think it's going to slide down next time. Yeah, I'm curious. I do wonder. Because there is, the one thing that this film will speak to in the older Academy. You know, there's still a lot of people. Dwindling. They're dying. Yeah. They're dying every day. We all die and that's what Hamnet's about. That's absolutely right. Okay, let's talk briefly about The Secret Agent. So, as I said on the episode last week, this is right near the top of my top 10. It's wild. I think this movie is really, really cool and it does something that, it does a couple of things that I really enjoy.

49:34it's based in the real world but it is using all of this wild genre convention and absurdity and it's very silly but it's also deeply sincere and painful and also a kind of a thrilling crime movie and an assassination conspiracy plot and a movie about corporate malfeasance and also about a dad just trying to get back to his son it's a lot it's a bit it's a two hour and 40 minute boiling pot of stuff. It definitely feels like a movie made by a guy who is obsessed with movies. But I'm really into what this filmmaker is trying to do and the way that he's trying to mix everything all together and make it work.

50:18And Wagner Mora, you know, I remember very vividly in 2018, we went to Sundance and the only actor interview I did at Sundance in person was with Wagner Mora. Just because I'd seen him on Narcos and I was like, he seems cool. and I don't usually book the show that way. I'm not usually like, we don't talk to actors very much, like much more filmmaker focused, but he just kind of had a vibe and I think this movie uses his like real sense of sincerity and mystery and sexiness really, really well. So I'm a big fan of this movie. Did you? Yeah. No, I finally caught up with it. I was very into it as well.

50:55I think what surprised me and what recommends it to me is that it is all of the, very sexy, exciting things that you said. It's a thriller. It's government conspiracy. But it is also just a hangout movie. It is very loose. It is about this world, the northeast part of Brazil in the 70s. And it has a real sense of place. The production design and everything is amazing. But you feel like you know these people. and so and it is silly it's you and Adam Neiman both compared it to one battle after another because of you know it's about a dad's and a dad's and you know political resistance and I think that that's an apt comparison but there is also a real Paul Thomas Anderson like vibe too it's you know it's clear that's where it comes from and he's like recreating his world with a lot of love and like wry observation and a sense of humor in like a sort of absurdist way about what's going on.

52:06So it, you know, it's weird to say it was a cool place to spend time because it is about a very dark period in Brazilian history and is also, as you said, about murder and corruption and loss. But like Donia Sebastiana, is that her name? What a legend. I want to hang out with her forever. I know. What do you think? I did not love this film, but I think I had the sort of Hamnet experience you guys had where I love Vagnar Mora's performance and especially like there is an element of the story where the ending really underlines, without spoiling it, underlines what an incredible performance this is.

52:47It was. I was watching it and I was like, this is really good, but are we sure about this actor? And then it flips and I was like, oh. Exactly. So like I was sitting here I was like, I love Wagner more. I'm never going to be mad that he's going to be nominated for an Oscar perhaps or whatever. But I don't get why it's for this film. And then I saw the ending and I was like, okay, I understand. Yeah, I don't want to. This movie has been even far less seen than Hamnet thus far. So I don't want to spoil the additional devices that the film uses. But it's pretty clever. There's a lot going on here.

53:16And I think this movie will not be for everybody for sure. And it is extremely like indulgent in its runtime. But I like The Hang. Like you said, I liked being around all of these particular characters who kind of find themselves living together in this adopted community of refugees. So I think it's really cool. I think the One Battle comp is interesting because the thing that I felt coming out of One Battle was dazed and amazed at how cohesive a movie that should feel so shambling felt. That's how I felt about One Battle. That's not how I feel about this movie, but what that means is that there are sequences in this movie that really, really worked for me.

53:53like when Vagnamora and his wife are at dinner with an absolute asshole. Or, you know, there's like, there's just vignettes that work really, really well. But it is so all over the map with its tone and which characters you're following in any given moment that there were some moments where I was checked out. But then there were some moments where I was really dialed in. Shambling is, it is shambling. Yeah. But, you know, I felt like the carnival scene when the Vagnamora character just goes into that. I was like, this is great. That seems, you know, I would like to be a part of that. And the color tone, the like Kodachrome sort of like burnt golden coloring is great too.

54:33Okay, let's take a quick break and talk about our favorite performances. Okay, and now it's time for a segment brought to you by Coca-Cola. This has been such a special year for actors that we love. There's something so joyful about watching actors you have a big relationship with at the top of their game. and those moments are even better with a Coca-Cola by your side. So is there a performance from an actor that you have a big relationship to that you want to spotlight here? As we know, I'm an Olivia Colman diehard, ride or die since The Crown and also maybe other... Anyway, she's been in a lot of things I love.

55:08And this year in the United States, we should clarify, she was in Paddington in Peru as a nun borrowing heavily from The Sound of Music. And this was the first film I ever took my young son to in a theater. And so my son loves Paddington. I love Olivia Colman. We got to go together. He mostly behaved. And I thought she was very funny. It's a very classic, accomplished actor doing silly things in a big budget movie. And it brought me a lot of joy. It's a great pick. I'm glad you mentioned your son. I am a son as well, a son of Ethan Hawke, one of my faves. We had our dad here on the show earlier this year.

55:46His performance in Blue Moon is absolutely wonderful. Transporting, fascinating portrayal of a composer and writer of music for the stage at near the end of his life. Truly heartbreaking. Something we've never really seen from Hawk before. Nice to see that, you know, there's still moves inside of his bag. Some things we haven't seen. And so he's definitely my pick. And whether it's on the big screen or in a bottle, joy is always better when it's shared with the people that you love. So refresh your holidays this season with Coca-Cola. Thank you. So the assignment was 10 performances each. the assignment was not please predict the top 10 leading performances at the academy awards this year I said maybe one or two of those and then the rest let's have a little bit of fun you like this exercise?

56:32yeah I love this did you used to do this on Little Gold Men? I don't know that I ever did this but I feel like I did it with you guys last year did you? you did do it with us yes that's right I was just making an adjustment that I thought of in the car because we have some overlap I changed one as well to avoid overlap and I like the overlap but oh but the Oh, okay. I saw, but I made another one just to spread the wealth as it were. But I kept a couple of the overlaps because I think consensus is fun. That's fine by me. What was your number one last year? Do you remember? I don't. I don't. What was my number one?

57:06What movies were last year? Does anything matter? Oh, Anora won last year. I was thinking about the, I was thinking about the films at the Oscars last year and how like Conclave and Anora and Emilia Perez don't feel like they exist anymore. yes right I don't think that would be true for like a one bottle of sinners Conclave does because the new pope saved cinema mm-hmm okay yeah that was tough how he went into he took over the pope chair yeah and then he was like all these filmmakers need to come to Italy and hang out with me and then Netflix bought Warner Brothers okay and so what happened there you know what there is no God that's what happened the church isn't gonna save us I guess god damn it um who wants to start I'll start.

57:50Great. I like that we did a similar thing. I like this. Yeah, this this is a good pick. I like this one. So I just want to highlight Jane Austen Wrecked My Life, which is a very small movie, French film. Delightful. Just absolutely. Really delightful. Didn't make you feel like you were in the 90s? Yes. Felt like a 90s like Next Stop Wonderland sort of just like cozy indie film. I absolutely loved it. And the main actress, Camille Rutherford, I had never seen anything. And I just thought she was just like perfect anchor of this. It's it's not a dorky, whimsical Jane Austen movie, but it is about a woman who works in Shakespeare and Co.

58:29Right. And and gets a fellowship to go work on her writing and inside of the context of of her Jane Austen fandom or whatever. Then there's debate about whether or not Jane Austen is actually a legitimate writer inside of it. But it's not like take your aunt and have some tea on some frilly doilies kind of movie. It's just like a movie movie about real people trying to be. That's how it felt like to me. But this also is my culture, is indie movies with the words Jane Austen in the title. So it's really a thank you. Thank you for honoring both of us. I haven't seen this film. Yeah. I should check it out.

59:03It's really good. Do you know any of the novels that Jane Austen wrote? Pop quiz. Can you name all six of them? Go. Emma. Yeah. Sense and Sensibility. Correct. Persuasion. Yep. You got three. I think that's probably all I can name. Okay, you're missing one really big one. The biggest one. The big one. The biggest one. Joe Wright. Pride and Prejudice. Yeah, sure. Those are all the ones that have film adaptations. And then the last two are locations. Yes. One is like Thackeray Cottage. Correct. Yeah, sure. I don't know the other two. That was pretty good. Mansfield Park. and Northanger Abbey. You've seen that.

59:44Man of Steel Park I've seen. Wonderful. Yes. Starring Frances O 'Connor who I love. What's the sixth one? Northanger Abbey. Probably like the least known to the earliest. I don't know that one. Four out of six. Not bad. Needed to be prompted for Pride and Prejudice is a little tough but other than that I'm not persuasion and that's good. I didn't know there was going to be a test on this episode. And it wasn't Shakespeare. How dare you. Amanda, number 10. Sure. I've cheated and I have three. It's a collection of performances under the umbrella of really accomplished actors having fun with some budgets.

1:00:17And it is Rosamund Pike in Now You See Me, Now You Don't, Coleman Domingo in The Running Man, and Tobias Menzies in F1. Yes, this is the villain corridor. Yeah, exactly. I like it. Coleman Domingo in The Running Man was just like, you know, this is a great tradition in history when our great, great actors, many of whom have British accents, show up just to be bad, bad guys in a movie. It is a great tradition. It's also a great tradition of I need to add a wing to my home. Yeah. You know, I need a cool million. I need a boat. Yeah, I need a boat. Yeah. And I'm Tobias Menzies. I hope Colin Domingo enjoys his boat.

1:00:52I do too. Do you think he got a smaller dinghy for Wicked for Good? Like to go with his The Running Man boat? I hope so. Yeah. All three of these characters are utterly preposterous. Yeah, it's true. They make no sense. They're very enjoyable. They're very charismatic in their own way. they all have the moment also where they get the one scene where they're like oh I see why you said yes to this yeah I agree or in Rosamund Pike's case the accent did you see Now You See Me Now You Don't guess what I didn't can I tell you who she plays please she plays a South African diamond princess oh no yes she does and she is going for the accent okay on a scale of like Leo and Blood Diamond to an actual person from South Africa where are we Leo and Blood Diamond shhh but like I would recommend it just for that but like from the you know but like from the British accent to Leo you know so just all over the map okay my number 10 is also themed it's these are great comic relief inside of comedies the funniest parts of a movie that I thought was pretty funny Conor O'Malley and Friendship my beloved which is truly the funniest person on earth best known for his viral videos and work writing on late night television shows but entering the garage and berating Tim Robinson is one of my favorite things.

1:02:07Honestly, hysterical. Also, I think we should still be in Afghanistan. Probably the funniest line in the movie. And then Danny Houston. I was a little bit more mixed on The Naked Gun. I really wanted to love The Naked Gun. But everything Danny Houston did, it's very similar to the Rosamund Pike performance where I'm like, this motherfucker committed to The Naked Gun. He's went all in. He's really doing it. And delivering absurd lines. He's also very funny opposite Pamela Anderson, whose name, fake name escapes me. is like, it's like Angela Spaghetti and Meatballs and he keeps calling her by her full name throughout the entire movie.

1:02:39But I, these two probably made me laugh more than anybody short of Leo in one battle. So that's my number 10. Okay, number nine, Joanna. This is the award for just playing himself, but he's always welcome. It's Michael Cera and the Phoenician Scheme and the Running Man. Just when he shows up in the Running Man, my interest just went through the roof and I just had the best time in the minutes that he is there in that movie. Do you think the movie is better if it's Michael Cera and the Glenn Powell role? Yes. Have you considered that? I kind of do. Yeah. I kind of do. With wigs and accents? Yeah.

1:03:13Doing bits. With fake mustaches and everything? A little bit less punching and kicking. Yeah. I had literally no idea what was happening when Michael Cera was on screen. I was laughing, but I did not understand. He was the son of a dissident who had created a series of traps in his house in the event that the nation state came to attack. It was the Home Alone sequence. I'm not saying he was the problem. His father was a police officer who left the force. Zs are involved. And he became a hot dog vendor as a show of resistance to the encroaching media, state-funded... But the moment that he hits the button, I didn't know why he was hitting the button.

1:03:50Because he wanted... Helping the super soaker. He wanted to kill a bunch of guys. Yeah, I think he just let the chaos take over, right? You can explain this as many times as you want. I'm never going to get it. Huge pod for the running man. so far. Two performances out of the movie. You never would have guessed that. A movie that I didn't particularly enjoy. And then the Phoenician scheme, Michael Cera was born to be in this role in a Wes Anderson film. He's wonderful. His transformation from the bug tutor to the spy is magic shit. Yeah, really good. I love Michael Cera. Really good. Great pick.

1:04:24Okay, Amanda, number nine. This was originally two people, but then I cut it down to one because of overlap. Okay. Jack Quaid in Companion, Which I think Companion is like the, I just wanted to get it in on one of our lists. Yeah, you'll see that I did the same. Well, that's why I took the other person off. It's like a very, very charming genre movie that totally works. He is, it hangs on two performances, but he communicates the right amount of pathos and smarm, I would say. And he had like a little run, but this is the movie when I was like, oh wow you are both Meg Ryan incarnate and your own person and Dennis Quaid well sure but yeah but he brings like a little bit and I was like this is good for him yeah are you a Novocaine fan or I saw it yeah he was fine in it yeah I was there I was in the theater did you see Novocaine I did what'd you think I liked it but I saw it like at home on streaming so like low it didn't feel like a real movie movie to me if you remove all the Nepo Baby stuff from Jack Quaid he just kind of does look like a guy who should be in a movie.

1:05:29Like he seems like a guy who should be in a movie in 1988 or 1968. Like he just, he can hold a movie together and that is not to be underrated. I think once, he's very good in that. I think once he's done with The Boys, I'm interested to see what happens to his film. Oh, I didn't know he was in The Boys. He's like the main character. Okay, well, speaking of new wings on your house. New, I just swapped this name in to avoid some overlap with you, but I've just put Chase Infinity from one battle after another, which is pretty revelatory and I think we're overlooking it now because she's like, whatever, like the brand ambassador for what, like Louis Vuitton or something?

1:06:01She's about to be like very famous. Chanel. Chanel, thank you. Which is big because that's their, it's back. Great, I'm excited. I would love to be a brand ambassador for Chanel. Okay, we'll see what we can do. It's Sofia Coppola, Chase Infinity. Are you listening? Amanda's ready. They're not because they haven't sent me any of the stuff. But yeah, I'm excited for her. Maybe the people at Chanel are huge Hamadet fans and they're listening to this episode. I think Chanel also dressed Tiana Taylor for a recent event. So they're on the One Battle team, which is cool. Chase Infinity coming from the worst plot twist in a television show that I've seen in the last couple of years.

1:06:34Literally the center of the worst plot twist. The twist herself to this tremendous performance is just a real comeback. It's pretty amazing. And I think not just being able to hold her own, but the movie effectively becoming hers. You were right. Louis Vuitton. Louis Vuitton. Yeah. I'm sorry. And then it was Tiana Taylor who was Chanel. I wish that she were Chanel instead. Gotta walk that back. Yeah. Chanel, Amanda's still interested. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think she's terrific in this movie and it's very, it's always exciting when a new person arrives and can take a movie away from Sean Penn and Benicio Del Toro and Leonardo DiCaprio.

1:07:15And, you know, Alan Siegel was telling, he just interviewed James Cameron about the new Avatar film and he's publishing a piece soon and he shared some thoughts about Chase Infinity's performance and what he responded to which I'll, I assume is going in the story that Alan is writing. Okay. But a strong woman who knows how to wield a gun is something that Jim Cameron has explored before. Has some experience with. Yeah, and he had nice things to say about her work too. Oh, great. Okay, number eight, Joanna. So this is a dual award. So Freaky Tales, a Bowdoin and Fleck joint that came out this year, set in Oakland in the 80s, and should have been sort of for me with Petra Pascal and Ben Mendelsohn.

1:07:56if you want to talk about Shaggy this is like one of the shaggier films this year it's like really mixed but there is a vignette inside of it with Normani and Dominique Thorne who play these girls who engage in this rap battle and it's just I loved it Petra Pascal is here Ben Mendelsohn is here two of my favorite most charismatic people Tom Hanks is there they're not holding it down but Dominique Thorne and Normani are and they were just really really fun and just like looking at them standing outside Grand Lake Theater which is like my like theater palace in Oakland was just really really fun I'm glad you mentioned it we didn't even talk about this movie this year I think it was a Sundance 24 film and then it got a release later this year I don't think it's very successful I also enjoyed Jay Ellis though as Sleepy Floyd in the final third of the movie I thought he was very fun too he gets to be like a kung fu fighting defeater of home invaders it's like it's an entertaining enough movie that doesn't really work okay number eight Amanda Robert Pattinson in Mickey 17.

1:08:57This movie didn't totally work for me, but he did. He has to do a lot. And I... Swing, the biggest swing. Is this the biggest voice swing outside of Rosamund Pike? I find this man incredibly watchable. Yeah. That's a good point. It's maybe the biggest swing because it doesn't land quite like Rosamund Pike's does. I find this man very watchable, as do many people because he is Batman. But I like that he did it. I like his weird, hot movie star vibe. I like that there are directors who still want to let him be really weird, but not too weird. There was a note to dial the voice back slightly, right, from director Bong.

1:09:36That's the dialed back version. I think that we did, in fact, see the dialed back version. Anyway, I think it's cool when movie stars try things. I fully agree. I agree. I like the way that he is navigating his career. Did you guys watch the teaser for the drama? No, because I don't want any spoilers. I saw the engagement announcement, though in the Boston Globe. Yes, that was a very clever bit of marketing. Yeah. The drama. Very excited about that. I'm excited about it. I was really excited about Mickey 17 as well. Fair point. Christopher Borgley's last movie was Dream Scenario and the drama stars Zendaya and Robert Pattinson.

1:10:11Sure does. That's a pretty big deal coming in April. My number eight is Inga Ibsdottor-Lilius, the Norwegian actress who plays Renata Runsve's sister in Sentimental Value, a film that I'm going to say once more, I really like that movie a lot and I will not be talked down. I think it's simultaneously very funny and absolutely devastating. I think she's wonderful in it. Don't you think she's going to be nominated? I do think she will be nominated. When I saw the movie, I thought she would win and now I feel like Tiana Taylor is a freight train in that category, which is surprising to me. But I think she's fantastic and the scene in particular that I love the most is when Stellan Skarsgård's character, her father, goes to visit her in her apartment so that he can meet up with her son and ask him to participate in the movie that he's going to make.

1:10:59And she becomes very upset and remembers the feelings that she had when they made a movie together when she was a young girl. And that feeling of abandonment when he left and did not spend any time with her after that incredibly powerful experience when she was a young kid. Not unlike some of the Hamnet experience in the movie. And, you know, this is a movie with some very celebrated actors and I'd never seen this actress before. And I thought she was by far the most real person in the movie and very, very special. So that's number eight. Number seven, Jo. I think a theme on my list is sort of like highlighting great performances in movies that didn't work for me.

1:11:35So Kiss of the Spider Woman, a movie that I didn't think was going to hit, didn't really hit for me. But Tonitua, who plays sort of the main character, despite what Jennifer Lopez would have you believe, of this film, Luis Molina, is I thought was fantastic. And this he's in the role that William Hurt played in the original film version. There's been a musical stage version. This is the musical movie version. And he has to narrate basically the entire movie. And he is incredibly handsome, incredibly charismatic. I watched this. I had seen the other version of Kiss a Spider-Man years ago, but I rewatched it after I watched this version and watching William Hurt do a sort of like swishy, queeny, like really over the top version of this character and then watching this queer man embody this character.

1:12:28I just thought this was like a really, really good like intro to a performer that I wasn't very familiar with. This has been on my list and I still haven't watched. I've kind of been dreading watching because I know it's like well over two hours and it, you know, not a huge Bill Condon fan and it's not gotten very good reviews. But I will watch it in part because of the performance that you're citing, which apparently is quite good. Really, really good. Diego Luna is also here. Diego Luna, one of my favorite performers, is just completely overshadowed by this guy. So, yeah. Okay. Number seven.

1:12:56Number seven. Kiki Palmer and SZA. One of them days. Yeah. Which I meant to include on honorable mentions of our best movies of the year and forgot to. Just a really delightful comedy. And there's, you know, I think like the cute version of this list would just be putting SZA on it because she's sort of a breakout comedic star and she's really very funny in this. But the chemistry that she has with Kiki Palmer, who's so charming and is like driving the film, is very special. They're great together. This is a delightful movie. I agree. I would love it if it was sort of like the road to Bob Hope style.

1:13:33Where they just like did a new one of these every two years. That would be really fun. That would be great. Because they're really fantastic together. SZA, who knew? Who knew? Yeah. It's not easy being a comic actress. No. Does this have training as an actor? I don't know. I have no idea. She's just a fun hang? Kiki Palmer, we know. We knew about it. We knew she could do that. Anyway, okay. Number seven for me is Joshua Conner. Just Joshua Conner, just writ large. Yeah. Just everything Joshua Conner's doing. This may come up again. Okay. Might. That includes rebuilding. That includes The Mastermind.

1:14:07That includes Wake Up Dead Man. Yeah. It even includes A History of Sound, a film I didn't really care for that much. but that I think he's good enough in. I'll just underline rebuilding because we haven't had a lot of time to talk about it, but that's just a movie that I thought was very affecting, very quiet. All three of these kind of core performances are very different. They are all fairly quiet. And O 'Connor has to listen a lot in these movies while also being inside of his own kind of narcissism. And it's so different because my wife just finished watching Wake Up Dead Man. And she was like, she didn't love it.

1:14:43And she didn't love it in part because she felt like Joshua Conner didn't get to be sexy, right? In Challenger, she was like, this fucking dirtbag. This is really appealing, you know? And to me, that was like a testimony to his greatness, you know, like that he can kind of. She's the one watching me to churro all day long. That's her preference. She enjoyed that. As did I, frankly. Yeah, you didn't. But his range is pretty cool to watch right now. And it's always fun when just by randomness of the schedule, a guy gets to be in four movies at one time. It's increasingly uncommon. But he's been doing multiple movies for the last couple years.

1:15:17He's just really running it. And we know he's now going to be in the Spielberg film, which is exciting. Okay, Joe, number six. Odessa Azion for Marty Supreme. Ooh, I had this on and took it off. Yeah. Good one. Great. Pamela Adlin has graced us with some great performers, both out of her show and out of her loins. loins. And, um, I thought she was fantastic in Marty Supreme, a movie that I don't think I'm as high on as you guys are, but I thought she was just like really, really electric as Marty's like childhood friend who gets involved in several of the capers along the way. And it is very important because of the decisions that a lot of characters make in this movie, it is very important that you are emotionally with her, uh, through some of her decisions.

1:16:00And I just found her really appealing, really funny, really sexy, really all these things. And just like absolutely mesmerizing. This is me right now learning that she's Pamela Adlon's daughter. I had no idea. Yeah. Which is a credit to her. She's great. Yeah. She's fantastic in this movie. That character is very fun as well. Yeah. Great pick. Number six, Amanda. So I, this is my original number six. Then I changed it because you had changed your list because of your list, but then you changed yours. So I changed it back. So we're going with Tom Burke and Black Bag, which I think deserves its own number six.

1:16:36Black Bag, another movie that we all really enjoyed, but I think didn't make any of the top tens just because it's... I mean, I don't want to diminish Steven Soderbergh in his bag making a spy dinner party thriller just for fun. But that is its own thing now, you know? Let us not take it for granted. I agree. Tom Burke is up against Cate Blanchett, Michael Fassbender, like just Marissa Abella, really, quite literally. And he is so funny and commanding. And the lie detector scene in particular with him, you know, he's the right amount of charming and smooth and amused. and also what the hell are we doing that the film needs because everybody else is on one of those poles.

1:17:32And I guess he is sort of the audience stand in the movie, but that's a hard thing to be in a Soderbergh film where they're poking everyone. So I just - He starts as the villain and evolves into something way different. Yeah. And you can never totally read him. It's just like him in The Souvenir where you're like, what? I mean, he's such a great actor. Yeah, he is a good actor. You know, he shows up in anything. He shows up in - Yeah, Mank. Furiosa. that's right you know and you're sort of like oh wow is this a great movie and then he's gone and you're like no precisely okay what is my number six let's peel back to my list oh yeah Sophie Thatcher from Companion who you know from your your days covering Yellow Jackets and who has also been having a big couple of years and I think it's been Book of Boba Fett erasure didn't see that one I also enjoyed her in Heretic last year I enjoyed her in The Boogeyman which was not successful but she was very good in it and she's you know, there's a little bit of Jamie Lee Curtis, I would say, and Sophie Thatcher.

1:18:28Interesting. Tell me why. Well, very strong, but very vulnerable. Very smart, very kind of fast-talking, but also is often in danger. And that's like a scream queen kind of persona. You know, she's kind of pursuing it if you look at the projects that she's getting cast in. This movie is interesting because it's kind of like Lars and the Real Girl meets Terminator. And that's a clever idea for a movie. I agree with you. I think this is just a really fun down the middle three star, six out of ten. Had a really nice time watching this. Clubber, you know? I went, huh, that's good. Many times. And she's just like Jack Quaid.

1:19:08I'm like, just more movies with her. That would be great if we could just get one of these a year with her. That would be exciting. She's definitely the performer out of Yellow Jackets who was making the smartest choices. Book of Boba Fett aside, which was terrible. But she's making really smart choices. Not in on Ella Purnell. Ella Purnell is great, but she's stuck in Fallout land for a little bit so we'll see where she goes so it's a book about Boba Fett it's a it's a don't worry about it honestly it's a Jonathan Franzen novel I would prefer you go to the beach and get sunburned and read a novel and kiss people and do all the other things that you want to do okay okay Joe number five um Joshua Connor have you heard of him yeah wake up dead man oh my gosh I think it's fine I think you guys are underrated him as you'll see as we continue this podcast so specifically for wake up dead man Correct.

1:19:54I mean. Did you like Wake Up Dead Man? I did medium. Okay. I thought in terms of the Knives Out franchise has failed to do what the first one did, which is make a meal out of every single, like there's so many wasted people in Wake Up Dead Man. There's so many people where you're like, why is Andrew Scott here? Like what use are we getting out of him? I love what Brolin did in this movie. But Josh O 'Connor is actually having like a soulful journey inside of a Knives Out movie and a soulful journey that impacts Daniel Craig in a meaningful way. And so I found it. It added, it's not my favorite Knives Out movie.

1:20:30I liked it better than Two. But it is the sort of the one I will be thinking about the longest, I think, because there's some real interesting things about faith and community and all kinds of things wrapped up inside of Joshua Connors' performance. This episode was supposed to be our Wake Up Dead Man episode. That will be on Monday. Right. So we will get into it then. This episode of The Big Picture is brought to you by State Farm. Having people in your corner to help you makes all the difference. For example, I'm usually loathe to trust Sean and his movie recommendations, but after many months of him waxing rhapsodic about Train Dreams, I finally watched it, and I have to be honest, he was right.

1:21:11It was wonderful. And like those people, State Farm is there to help you feel supported by helping you choose the coverage you need. Go online at statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to get help from one of their local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Amanda, number five. Rebecca Ferguson, House of Dynamite. Tracy Letts, if you're listening, I declared you ineligible because of - Conflict of interest? An anti-corruption stance that we're taking here on The Big Picture. Are we? I can't say the same. But Chanel, you're listening. But Chanel, but Chanel. They're making Charvet shirts.

1:21:48Do you know how much they cost? I don't. I don't have the budget for that. Anyway, I liked this movie more than Sean did. And I think what I really liked about it was the first third, which is the Rebecca Ferguson. Definitely the best. You know, yet another mom on screen just trying to do her best. And the world is making it quite literally impossible. And the ramifications are quite bad. And again, I felt pretty nauseous watching this. but I think that she is, it's a very unflashy performance and she sets the stakes like so high in this movie that I think much of it can't live up to it, but she's very good.

1:22:33She is very good. Some notes on her accent. Not really sure what state in the United States she's from. What do you think? Minnesota? Tennessee? Tennessee? Maybe she's an army brat, moved around a lot. Yeah, definitely. That's her backstory. Okay. I like her quite a bit. My number five is Mariam Afshari, who plays Shiva in It Was Just an Accident, the Jafar Panahi film. And she plays a photographer and a woman who was engaged in the same capture and torture that the lead character in the film undergoes. I feel that this is the best written character in the movie and the best performance in the movie.

1:23:14the character who most clearly represents the rage and frustration and determination to find out the truth and to find justice, but also to put the past in the past and the way that those two ideas are sometimes in conflict with each other. And this is an actress I haven't seen before, and she is absolutely incredible. And she had to perform as all the performers did in secret. this movie was made in secret so that the Iranian government did not become aware of it. And she has felt the most like a real person. And this thriller that is like sometimes absurd and very funny, she felt like the person who was engaged in the deepest pain in the story.

1:23:57Okay, number four. Oh, this is me. So Nouvelle Vague, which is the Linkletter film that I liked most this year. um zoe deutsch is the is the sort of like face of this movie um because she is a recognizable actor and she speaks english um but i think the revelations of this movie were guillaume marbec and aubrey dylan as jean-luc goddard and jean-paul belmondo respectively these are guys who've never acted before and i just thought they were fantastic especially guillaume marbec was as Jean-Luc Godard was just like eccentric, sexy, like just captivating intellectual, but capricious and just like that pain in the ass that you understand why people put up with because when he is cooking, he is cooking.

1:24:51And I just thought he was, it's essential that he works in this film. And I thought he was so, so good. And I was just really shocked to learn that he had never acted professionally before. Yeah, that is really surprising. they are both like spitting images of the two characters that they're playing too which is presumably why they were cast but Linklater man needs to know what he's doing with actors okay did you guys did you guys like Nouveau Vogue or you were not that was fine charmed but that performance he is annoying in an irresistible way that I think is like essential to the movie and also I mean I was just gonna say recognizable it's just like literally my brand it's just I mean how many times have I been you know faced with And an annoying, irresistible cinephile?

1:25:35Yes. Could we build a podcast around that? When are you going to make your movie, Sean? Oh, certainly never. Okay. Number four. Number four for you. This is the first names that I thought of when confronted with this spreadsheet. This is incredible. Assignment for performances. Tramiel Tillman and Katie O 'Brien, Mission Impossible, The Final Reckoning. These are great picks. Listen, this movie, we can say it now. we're several months from our emotional experience and it just doesn't work I rewatched it on the plane this makes me happy I feel like you had a moment of clarity listen I watched it on the plane on Thanksgiving because I could watch it without sound because I have dealing with the children and I texted Sean from the plane I paid 30 bucks for wifi to text Sean to be like yo what was happening in this movie what a mess but then Tramiel Tillman and Katie O 'Brien show up and I like I have pictures on my phone that I took of the screen being like my friends are here and he just when they come on the screen they're the only people who understand what the movie is supposed to be and are like bringing some flair to it and are also looking at Tom Cruise in the way that I think one should look at Tom Cruise after he's jumped into the sea and been rescued by divers what does that look like I can't I need to You missed it.

1:26:58She kind of went for it. It's like, you know, and he's like framed. Tramiel Tillman is like framed in the door just so being like, mm-hmm. He's like, you must be out of your mind. Really, really great moments of levity in a film that is just way, way, way too tied up in itself. If all of the characters had been able to channel this, it could have been at least a good movie. Maybe? No, I don't know. Have you also had a Final Reckoning with Mission Impossible Final Reckoning? I said it on the pod that we did. It's the heartbreak of the year for me. I mean, I love the Mission Impossible movies and the biggest testimony to the heartbreak is the fact that I've rewatched every Mission Impossible movie at least five times and I've only seen this movie once.

1:27:44In fact, you went to go see it with Jack a second time before we recorded. I couldn't make that second recording. I think maybe the episode that we did is slightly incoherent because I couldn't remember a lot from the first screening. And also the movie itself is not coherent. But that was part of the issue is the movie is kind of hard to understand because the script is such a mess and it's devastating. I love this franchise. I really believe in Macquarie as a writer and director and I think the movie stinks. So it sucks. But they're great and I agree with these picks. They're a lot of fun and there's two great action sequences in the movie and everything else is kind of risible.

1:28:11Okay. Number four for me. What is it? What did I write down? Oh yeah, I'm proud of this. A$AP Rocky in Highest to Lowest and Archie Medecue in Lurker are playing kind of the same role in reverse. They're both playing musicians one aspiring one accomplished one is playing a young musician who is kind of looking up to someone who's reached a higher status of success in the music industry in the case of A$AP Rocky's character who's a rapper who kidnaps his idol's son's best friend accidentally leading to this intrigue throughout New York City. Archie Medecue plays a kind of like somewhere between Drake and Dijon style LA hipster hip hop and R &B star whom a admirer slash stalker enters the orbit of and eventually becomes grows closer and closer to until he grows too close.

1:29:07Lurker has not really been seen that much. I think it's one of the coolest debuts of the year. Archie Medeque I thought was absolutely terrible in Saltburn. It was one of my least favorite performances of that year and I think he's very very good. It's a really well observed performance about what a person with power and a small room can do. And ASAP, man, he's just pure charisma. You know, the sequence when he and Denzel are kind of wrapping back and forth at each other. I know a lot of people thought that movie was kind of a mess, but them on screen, I thought were just fantastic. And he really holding his own against one of the very best.

1:29:42Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty impressive. Okay. Number three. Wait, can I just let you know that ASAP Rackney is also a Chanel ambassador? That's great. Yeah. Newly named. You keep making it sound like you belong amongst them. You don't think when you think Asap Rock, you don't think Anna, Anna, Nobans? I'm tracking it. Okay. Noted. He was also very good in If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You. He was. He was very good in that. Okay. Joe, number three. Dylan O 'Brien, Twinless. I loved Twinless. Like sort of Jane Austen Wrecked My Life and another movie I'm going to talk about in my number two. There were a lot of little films that I really, really loved this year.

1:30:16Twinless, I thought, was just extremely watchable. Dylan O 'Brien is playing a dual role. And sort of similar to some other things that we've talked about inside of this very podcast, like you don't appreciate how good one role is until you see the second role. And then you're like, wow, he's doing two very different things very convincingly. And they really just sort of complement and highlight each other. and um you know he he he's like a slacker extremely straight dude and then he's just like a really kind of hilariously mean gay dude and really really embodies both and the the twin who you know twin list the premise of this movie is one of the twins has has died and when he shows up which is a good way into the movie you understand why the loss of him was was such a big deal for the characters around him because he is so electric.

1:31:09And I just love, I really think Dylan O 'Brien, like Jack Quaid, should be in a lot of movies. And, you know, his career has come and gone due to sort of like some, you know, injuries in his career, stuff like that. But I just think he's always really good. And I would like to see him in a leading role, man. I didn't like this movie at all, but I thought he was fantastic in it and is by far the best part of it. And he's also very good in Saturday Night. as Dan Aykroyd, which is a very odd part for him to be playing, but he's terrific in that as well. Okay, number three, Amanda. In his rifle place at number three on this list is Josh O 'Connor for Wake Up Dead Man, The Mastermind, and all of the promotional materials that he's been doing specifically for History of Sound and Wake Up Dead Man.

1:31:55Yeah. He and Paul Meskel did a lot of great work together off screen or on smaller screens. I feel like Paul Meskel burned a lot of his tolerance for the gamification of the press tour on History of Sound. And so now he's at Hamden. He's like, I already did this this year. I got to do Two Truths and a Lie again. But he and Josh O 'Connor have real chemistry. Did you see the one? And I think Josh O 'Connor is bringing out a lot of his natural charm. Did you see the red carpet poses? Did you see the one? Yes, I saw it. Yeah, it's a really good one. See? Did you see the one? Yes, I saw it. I saw it.

1:32:29And now he's like doing ASMR with Andrew Scott for Wake Up Dead Man. Anyway, we'll talk more about Wake Up Dead Man. I was also, I'm not going to dislike it, but I was mixed on it. But I thought he was an absolute delight. And in addition to, like, the soulfulness that you're talking about, which he brings to every performance, including the mastermind. He's quite funny. He's very funny. And he and Daniel Craig have a real vibe. And my feedback for Wake Up Dead Man is, like, please make Josh O 'Connor a recurring character in the Knives Out franchise. Absolutely. You know, like, we need a buddy comedy.

1:33:05But so I think he's wonderful. I think he's really, really funny. And there is something charming about how just everyone clearly feels the same way. And like he's in four movies. He's in every single TikTok. Like people are bringing him, you know, Ratatouille gifts on the red carpet. We all are just kind of like, oh, that guy. I'm so glad to see him. It's nice to have one of those. I was recently served the video of him during a Vanity Fair shoot where he's with Sidney Sweeney and Daniel Deadweiler. And they're chit-chatting about their favorite shows. and he starts talking about how much he loves his gardening television show.

1:33:39Sure. And which I wish I could remember the name of it. But it's very adorable. Little Joshua Conner. Yeah. He likes to just sit down, watch a man take care of flowers. The little smile that he does. Yeah. He's great. Can I share one quick thing about Wake Up Dead Man? I will. I won't have the honor of talking to you guys about it in full. I watched it on an award screener. Those things are captioned. They're usually captioned very well because these are award screeners. At one point, Daniel Craig says, telling the truth can be a bitter herb. And the closed captioning said, telling the truth can be a belly rub.

1:34:16That's what the closed captioning said. And I was like, wow, he defeated them with his accent. And we rewound it like five times. I was like, he said bitter herb, right? Not belly rub. Really got the meaning wrong there too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, my number three is my girl Amanda Seyfried in The Testament of Anne Lee. Yeah, incredible. So good. I gotta see this movie again. She's fucking nailing this. You know, obviously I haven't seen the Mamma Mia films, not aware of her ability to sing. Or Les Miserables. Or I have not seen Les Mis either. We really, I've never seen Les Miserables. I need the Amanda Seyfried Oscar nom to come through.

1:34:48One, because she deserves it. Number two, because then Amanda Seyfried's singing programming for Sean is gonna be incredible in 2026. That would be interesting. Have you seen her sing Joni Mitchell on The Tonight Show? Well, yes. In fact, that was one of the most impactful things that happened in 2024. And I shared that video on the internet and I said, God damn it, make this happen. What is the instrument that she's playing? The lap instrument? The dulcimer, I think. Dulcimer, yeah. Incredible shit. She's amazing in this movie. This movie is ridiculous in a good way. It's a very over-the-top, fantastical portrayal of a real-life religious movement and that breaks into fits of song at various intervals.

1:35:30and her commitment is why the movie works. I think if she's not working in this movie, then you don't buy it because she is the sort of religious leader slash cult figure at the center of this new movement. It's Mona Fastfold's new movie, the co-writer of The Brutalist and partner of Brady Corbet. Those two movies together, the ways in which they're deadly serious and the ways in which they're hilarious are fascinating to me. They're very much twinned and we'll talk about it more in January when more people get a chance to see it. Okay. number two joe uh newly minted golden globe nominee eva victor this is my favorite moment of the golden globes uh announcements that eva victor got nominated for sorry baby um i loved sorry baby this is her project right she wrote directed and starred in this um this was a this is a tough film to get your arms around i think and a tough film to land because it is dealing with something incredibly serious in a in a oftentimes hilarious oftentimes absurd and then oftentimes devastating way and i think she hits all of those notes and it's not something that i thought the globes was going to i was shocked yeah attention to and it really really made me happy i thought this was such a like a couple other names on my list like a really important announcement of someone whose work i am going to be following uh i mean i was aware of her on like tiktok and stuff like that but just i think everything that she makes i'm going to be interested in checking it out going forward great pick i like this movie a lot too um okay number two amanda so when we were making these lists or our pre-chat we decided that two and one would be like our our serious ones or the ones like a bigger action yeah like a lead performance sure or you know the awards one still with awards chances as opposed as opposed to with respect to trammell tillman and Katie O 'Brien, like the fun picks.

1:37:21So I'm grouping my two moms together here, Rose Byrne and Jennifer Lawrence. Rose Byrne in If I Had Legs, I'd Kick You and Jennifer Lawrence in Die My Love. These are two of my favorite movies of the year. We talked about them on the Top 5 episode and it has been a year of moms and dads and I think that these are the performances that I saw myself the most in because they are white women of similar to my age. So it's really, you know, that's not surprising. You're saying you do see color when you look at women. Well, no, I was just, you know, I also really, I did also see myself in Tiana Taylor's One Battle After Another.

1:38:00We don't have any one battle after another. Oh, we do? Oh, Chase Infinity. Right. But to your point, I do think that she's going to win Supporting Actress and I definitely think she'll be nominated. So I was, you know, and I guess Rose Byrne is in the fight. I don't think Jennifer Lawrence is going to be nominated. Lead actress, you mean. Lead actress. You were talking about Tiana Taylor. I think Dan Taylor will win supporting. And that is a performance of motherhood that I also really related to, although we have some significant differences, not just the color of our skin, but also, you know, our revolutionary involvement.

1:38:30You are even more violent. Sure, that's right. But I think Rose Byrne will make it in. I don't know if Jennifer Lawrence will make it in for Die My Love because it's a pretty crowded year and that movie has been overlooked or underseen. But I thought they were both great. And to the Jesse Buckley point, like very raw performances in different ways that got different emotions out of me, but that I recognized. So it's like still very human. So shout out to both of them. Great pick. I just realized I can double up on my next one. so my next pick is Lee Byung-hun who people may know from I Saw the Devil or Squid Game he gave two performances this year the first performance that he'll probably be most recognized for us is Working No Other Choice the new Park Chan-wook movie which was my third favorite movie of the year and is an absolute master class in satire and action storytelling the other one is K-pop Demon Hunters and I remember vividly watching K-pop Demon Hunters for the first time and seeing his name in the credits and turning to my four-year-old and like telling her how excited I was about this and she could not have given less of a fuck.

1:39:54And the part that he plays, I want to make sure I get the actual character down. He plays in this, in K-pop Demon Hunters. We ma, the like demon. Yes, like the lead demon. The demon. Massive like mountain demon. Which is kind of an interesting use. of Libyan Hun. I had to spend so much time covering Squid Game the last year in a way that was really tough for me, actually. And he's really good in a show that had a really bad second season, second and third season. I heard his voice in K-pop Demon. I was like, oh my God. He's here. He's incredible. It's great. But he has a really tall task and no other choice.

1:40:32He has to be funny. He has to be desperate. He has to be sad. He has to be violent. He has to be crazed. He has to be, you know... My favorite scene in that movie without spoiling anything is when he goes in for a job interview and the sunlight is beaming into his eyes. And he's trying to focus and trying to nail the interview and not say the wrong thing that his friend has told him not to say and make sure that he presents himself in a way that he's an appealing job applicant. We've all been there. It's a tough spot. He's very funny and very discomforting in that moment. It's a very arch movie, but he still has to be a real human in it.

1:41:05Totally. Yeah. Okay, number one. Jesse Buckley Hamnett. Yeah. I just, I'll add her to your two moms and say, great year for moms who are going through it. And I already said everything I need to say about her. I just think she's tremendous. And I considered not putting her number one because I knew we would have talked about her for a while. But honestly, I just want to cement how I feel about her performance. So, number one. We share number one. Yeah. It's Timmy. We share a number one with Timothee Chalamet himself, who is out here on the trail, Self-confident, much like Marnie Supreme. I, you know, having seen the film, I am wondering how method he's being right now on his promo tour.

1:41:47Well, he did something really interesting. He went on the podcast, What Do You Want to Talk About? Are you familiar with that podcast? Yeah, I listen to it every morning. Okay, it's hosted by Cody Rhodes, WWE superstar. Okay. And their conversation was all about professional wrestling and his relationship to professional wrestling. I don't know what Timmy's cooking, but he's right inside my brain right now. Like he is literally talking about the intersection between sports and entertainment that is a theme of Marty Supreme, that is the definition of professional wrestling and that it is something that I have often cited while talking about people like The Rock and the way that wrestlers are more well-suited to converting to movies than any other athletic figure because being able to sell emotion is a real challenge.

1:42:34And him like knowing the nitty gritty about wrestling in a certain era and talking shop with Cody Rhodes, who's a world class superstar. Just great shit. Marty is amazing. It's so good. I know you're a little more mixed on it. That's good. And yeah, I think starting in that moment when he gave the sex speech all the way up until this moment, I do think he's been doing kind of a method thing. do you how do you feel about my theory that while he's doing his utmost to promote this movie I don't think he actually wants to win best actor this year I don't think he cares that much I don't well I I do think he cares but I don't think he's more interested in selling the movie I don't think he wants to go head to head with Leo maybe I think he doesn't want to be seen trying and not beating Leo when he's trying to position himself as the next Leo that's my theory We'll learn more about that in January and February after the movie comes out.

1:43:25I think what he's doing now is trying to draw a lot of attention to get people to go see the movie. He wants the movie to work. To do well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he knows what's riding on it and the power. He gets to basically be Leo if this movie opens well. You know, if this movie works business-wise, it's not going to be Titanic, obviously, but. Do you think it will? I have my doubts. I hope it's us. I mean, it's a tough market, which I do also think he knows. I think he's incredibly savvy, you know? Oh, yeah. He's a real student, not just of, you know, film and acting, but press tours and celebrity and is like and is playing the game very well.

1:44:00So I think he understands what is at stake for him. And he also knows how many of like star projects this year have absolutely like fallen on their faces. Yes. So I think there's maybe a little something to the Leo thing. And I do know that there's a there's a class of people who think that Leo is actually just going to coast to number two here. I have felt like it's Chalamet the whole time. You mean a second Oscar as opposed to number two to Wagner Mora, which is what I thought you meant when you first said it. No, no, no, no, no. Just that he took Oscar number two. I think it will depend. If Marty Supreme is a big hit at the box office, then Timmy's a threat.

1:44:36But Timmy also is not like, he didn't go to the Governor Awards. Like there's certain things that he's just not doing. I know. I think he's trying to carve a new path. Okay. I could be, and it might not work and you might be right. It might be backfiring. but I think he's like if we're going to change the way this stuff is there's a new way to do it. It's really bold and could be perceived as arrogant and I'm sure that there are like classical award systems that don't like this sort of stuff. I'm not upset about it. I mean he can do whatever he wants to do. I was just sort of like he didn't go last year and he missed.

1:45:06Yeah. And I'm just sort of like well if you didn't if you tried to carve your own path last year and you almost but didn't get it. But as soon as Adrian Brody went on stage everyone in the world was like shit we should have went with Timmy. Yeah of course. Of course. Yeah. Okay. So you think it's going to be that like, it should have been you last year kind of win? Those happen all the time. They do. They do. So that's very much in play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. We'll see. It's a fun race. It's a fun race because it's, you know, it's now the old master who is more than worthy of two. And the guy who like, the industry is on his shoulders and, you know, Zendaya and Tom Holland and a couple of other people.

1:45:40But it's like, if movies are going to keep going, like he's not making fucking TV shows. He's only making big movies. There might be the idea that Best Picture and Director and other things are going to go to one battle, but perhaps both supporting categories if you guys are right about Tiana Taylor, and then they feel like they need to award Marty Supreme. Again, I think it depends if Marty Supreme opens well. We'll see. Yeah. Okay, let's go now to my conversation with Cleber Mendoza Filio.

1:46:16Very happy to be here with Kleber Mendoza-Filo. So I want to start by talking about your life with movies. So it's such a crucial component of The Secret Agent, but we see a lot of young people going to the cinema and receive a in the film. Do you remember the first movie you saw? The first film I saw, and I know this because my mother always told this story, it was a Tom and Jerry marathon right at the San Luis Cinema, which is one of the characters in The Sacred Agent. And that movie palace opened in 1952. It's still open. It's one of the great movie palaces in the world, I think, today. It's absolutely intact and recently restored.

1:47:01And that's where I went to see my first film screening. How old? This was 1973, so I must have been four, almost five years old. Okay, so then take me back to 77 as a filmgoer then, since that's such a critical year for this film. 77 was a special, interesting year personally for me because we had a health crisis in the family. My mother, she had treatment for breast cancer at the time. And the family really tried to protect the two little kids, myself and my brother. I was nine at the time. My brother was seven. And my younger uncle, Ronaldo, he took us to the cinema many, many times. A crazy amount of times.

1:47:56Basically to take us away from home. And that was an interesting moment because as a child, I wasn't really aware of what was happening. and I was going to see lots of movies in the downtown area in Hesifib, which I think explains my previous film, Pictures of Ghosts. Of course, I grew up and became a cinephile, and then I did journalism and became a film critic and, of course, a filmmaker. but at the time it felt like a real discovery not only of films but also of you know the downtown area I remember the smells and the colors and film going was a big part of being downtown I think the cinemas attracted thousands and thousands of people every week and I have many memories of that time.

1:49:02And the interesting thing is not only do I remember the films I saw at the time, but I also remember the films I never saw at the time, but I would see the posters and the lobby cards and that really played with one's imagination because at the time, of course, we had no intranet and the only way to access films was in the cinema or maybe on television, but also So outside, you know, in the hall, in the lobby, and in the windows on the streets. So that's how I first saw, you know, The Omen, which was rated 18 in Brazil at the time. And Jaws, which I only finally saw in the early 80s. And yeah, so many, so much of that iconography is very much part of my life, you know.

1:49:54It's part of this film too, clearly. It's part of this film, yeah. There are many references of film posters in the background. And I like to say that for Pictures of Ghosts, which is a documentary and a film essay, the Saint-Louis cinema is shot like a character. But in this film, The Secret Agent, I think it's shot like an actor, as if it was acting. Yeah, it's very alive. I'm curious about the choice to make effectively these two films, which are very paired in some ways, but both memory movies in succession like this. Like, is it a certain time in your life or why did it come at these times?

1:50:33It was never planned because I spent, I did Bakurao, of course, and it was released in 2019. And I had been playing with the idea of doing a film which would probably be a film essay or maybe a documentary about film going. And I had a lot of stuff in my own private archive. And these films, you don't really write them. They exist on what you find, on the materials you find. And the more you find, the more you want to make the film. So after going after all my videos and photographs at the time of university, I expanded and went into the public archives and the Brazilian Cinemateque, and I just kept finding more and more stuff.

1:51:30And that's how Pictures of Ghosts became a film. But by then, I already wanted to develop something with Wagner Motor. And then Pictures of Ghosts put me in the right mood to write the script for The Secret Agent. So they're very different films, but they're very close in heart. Was there ever a period where The Secret Agent was set at a different time or more of a modern story? Was it always set in this world? No, it would always be in 1977. I think because it's probably the first year I remember as a kid. And when you're a kid, I think you concentrate on things that as an adult you wouldn't really pay attention.

1:52:17For example, today I don't know much about cars, but as a 10-year-old, I could tell you about all the different models and makes and details. So that came in handy for the production design and little details that would help make the film more lived in. you mentioned baccarat i felt that that watching felt this watching that film as well but watching this movie and one of the things that i love so much about it is this unusual blend of genre almost exploitation convention and in this film a lot of history a lot of personal reflection and then this sense of absurdism that's like a very delicate balance between all these ingredients I think life in society can be absurdist, can feel like an exploitation movie sometimes.

1:53:20I mean, just look at the news and so many nasty incidents and so much violence in the world. So I think when you sit down to write a script, it can go to many places. And I guess I grew up watching all kinds of genre cinema. I'm a huge fan of, you know, Carpenter, for example, John Carpenter. Feel that in Baccarat deeply. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, De Palma. I think Spielberg plays an important part in my years as a young cinephile also but of course I think a lot about Brazilian cinema from the 1970s and Australian cinema of course something like Wake and Fright I think was very much in the back of my mind when I was writing the opening, 10-minute opening sequence, and even shooting it also.

1:54:25So, yeah, I really believe that... For example, I really love documentaries, but I think you can be very truthful doing fiction. And I even think that some fiction work can even be more truthful than some documentaries, Not all of them, but some of them. What do you mean by that? I mean that you can use artifice and you can use genre conventions, but still come up with an idea which is very honest and very truthful about life and about people and about the world. And this is something that I keep getting as a reaction to some of my films and to The Secret Agent. I mean, it's a narrative fiction and it's not based on real life incidents.

1:55:23But there is a logic to it, which I think is very truthful about Brazil and about the world and about the passage, the passing of time. It does feel at times like you're watching Wagner's character go through the experience. and that it does at other times feel like you are watching the movie version of the real-life Wagner's experience, which is an incredible blend. You mentioned the first 10 minutes of Secret Agent. I wanted to ask you about that, actually. You've gotten very skilled as a filmmaker at creating dread. That's hard to do. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about designing a sequence so that we are feeling exactly what you want us to feel.

1:56:04I think your question, this is a very interesting question, But I really have to say that some of the things that we do as a filmmaker, some of the things that you do as a writer, they come from your own style. And for example, my biggest, most wonderful surprise about The Secret Agent is how funny it is or how humorous, can I say? but humor is not something that you go for that at least i don't i'm of course some people say my next film will be a comedy but i always i always feel like saying how do you know you know you you shouldn't really pre-design comedy comedy is something that it's like you go out with your friends to have lunch or to have dinner or to have a great conversation and it turns out to be one of the funniest evenings in your life but it was never planned it's just the chemistry of what we all talked about and and how we expressed ourselves that evening and then it became a very kind of a very funny evening and and i think dread is dread probably you you can probably tell from reading a script that there might be some dread involved but i think dread also has to has to do with where the camera is and how the editing goes.

1:57:35Maybe the camera is a little bit to the right, a little bit more than maybe it should be, and that generates some tension. So it's kind of hard to answer the question. I think some of the situations are quite clear, but it's not really something that I'm planning. I'm pretty old tomorrow's sequence will be full of dread it doesn't really work like that well some filmmakers do work schematically or at least they have an idea of the things that they want to accomplish I do think that the humor that you're talking about in the example of someone like De Palma it comes out of that feeling of dread where it feels so silly to feel so tight about what might happen to a character but like in Carrie exactly with the bucket full of blood and there's something kind of hilarious even though that's such a painful sequence.

1:58:30But yeah, the other thing too that is related to that is you mentioned moving the camera to the right. There's some formal moves in the movie, split diopter shots, things like that, that feel like they're almost active comments on the era in which the film is taking place in the films that were happening at that time. Did you make those choices for that reason? That's another interesting observation because I have used split diopter shots in previous films. One of them is a contemporary story, Aquarius. so it's more about using tools and aspects of film language which for some reason I wouldn't even be able to tell you why they've been left behind i don't know why you know it's like they've gone out of fashion it's like a wonderful piece of clothing that you see why it doesn't i want to wear this but oh but you're not supposed to it's out of fashion but but i like it so but yeah with The Secret Agent, taking place in 1977.

1:59:37Of course, I thought of, you know, blowout. I know it's 1981, but, you know, blowout and close encounters, split diopter shots. And I love them. Well, if you use them in the right place, I think they can be interesting, you know? They might bring you some interesting reaction to the image on the screen. You shouldn't use it all the time. You should save it for an interesting moment. But then it's out of intuition. I might have an idea where I want to use it even as I write the script, but some other idea might come up during the shoot. And I might say to the DOP, Afghania, can we bring the split diopter thingy?

2:00:38That's what I would have called it too. And let's see how it looks. Oh, it works. Yeah, that's good. Let's go for it. That's interesting. I find that in a lot of those films that are using some of those moves, that they're often done for dramatic storytelling purposes in significant tension-filled sequences. in your film at least one of them is a father observing his son and seeing them both in frame in focus it's it's tricky to almost psychoanalyze the film but I'm happy to do it I think that's why you're here yes I think they they've been apart for so long and even when they're in the same room they're still distant or far away from each other in a way I've never even verbalize this.

2:01:29This is the first time. That is the emotional impact that it has, though. Yeah. And then the other one, of course, is this man who's paid to kill someone. He gets increasingly closer to the person, so finally they end up in the same shot in a very unusual way, which is with the split diopter shot. And I think it's very uncomfortable to see them so close to each other even if via an optical effect so you mentioned that you were a cinephile and a critic and a programmer and i think you were in your 40s by the time you made your first feature right yeah i was 42 so i'm always interested in people who start a little bit later and like what how what impact do you think that would have had if you as opposed to if you had made a feature at 27 uh well i i come from a city which at the time when i was in university i there was there were no film schools so i did journalism i've always enjoyed writing i've always been quite good at writing even in school terrible in math good in writing in portuguese and english and these things and then and then I it happened what I expected journalism brought me closer to to an idea of cinema and for many years I I felt good being a film critic and I was already developing my little videos and short films I always felt that being a film critic is one way of making films I don't want to sound like a crazy person but it is I think because you spend so much time not only watching but thinking about films and trying to understand what films are trying to say and what do they mean why did he or she do this and in a way you're part of the whole thing about cinema you're just sucking up to me now yeah but of course my short films, they got more and more attention.

2:03:48And in the 2000s, yeah, that's when my short films became quite well known in Brazil. And then I began to travel abroad also to international film festivals and get a lot of prizes. And at the time, I was perfectly happy making short films. There was no intention of trying to transition to features when you were doing that? They weren't seen as like an on-ramp to something else? I kept hearing that question all the time. When are you going to make a, you know, like a real film? Oh, I'm happy making my short films. And they were, you know, I got quite a lot of recognition for them. But then, naturally, I wrote the first feature, Neighboring Sounds.

2:04:36I wrote it in 2008 and got the funding. In Brazil, we have public funding. We got the funding in 2009. I shot it in 2010. And it did very well. And then I have only done, since then, only two other short films. Because once you get into the feature film train, it's hard to go back. why? I think I finally understood why people kept asking when are you going to do a real film but I have to say that I look at my short films I give them the same importance as I give Bakura or The Secret Agent but unfortunately the world doesn't think like that and of course you get more recognition more attention you travel more and yeah you're more seen I think making features we don't have an adequate distribution system for shorts it's just not coherently communicated to the public yeah I agree there are many attempts there are non-profits and even distribution companies there is a short film world and I've been part of it you know the Clément Ferrand International Short Film Festival is the can of shorts.

2:06:08It's an amazing festival in France. Europe has amazing short film festivals. Brazil has many, many short film festivals. And as I said, you can be perfectly happy making short films. But if you make a film that gets noticed like Neighboring Sounds did, it's a different ballgame. How did you and Wagner cross paths? We met in Cannes 20 years ago. I was a critic and I got to interview him. I liked him very much. Clearly a great actor and a really nice person, nice guy. He's been on the show. He's such a lovely person. And he didn't have that kind of anxiety that some actors and actresses have. like notice me and trying to be more than they are.

2:07:08Time passed. I went on to make my films. He saw Neighboring Sounds. That was the first time that he reached out and said, I really think we should work together someday. And it took like 10 years for this to happen. And you wrote this for him? I wrote it specifically for him. It's the first time that I write one film to develop with one actor. What was that experience like? Was it significantly different from writing features before that? I think it is. I think it is because sometimes you even write, sometimes you're writing a script and you haven't, it's not supposed to be with anyone in particular, but you end up, you can't stop thinking about someone, an actor or an actress, and then you write a role, thinking that maybe he or she will be interested.

2:08:09And then sometimes you kind of grow out of the idea and it's, oh, change my mind. But with Wagner, it would always be with him. And in Telluride, one of the interviews we did together, there was a funny question, came out of nowhere this guy asked um what was the plan b and i and and he looked at me like a like a jealous uh you know boyfriend girlfriend you know you didn't answer there was no plan b yeah i'm telling the truth i never thought about a plan b in fact um and it's interesting because uh you i kept i i know his work i know the films he did and the television work he did and even theater and and i had i had it mapped out in a way and and i wanted to maybe go somewhere else with him and and i'm very happy with with the way it turned out i think he's wonderful in the film he really is he's an interesting figure because he's you know very classically handsome and he has a lot of movie star quality and he can carry a movie on his shoulders as well but i i do feel like you tapped into something mysterious about him that um i don't know if i had quite seen before i don't know how did you develop it after you gave him the script i mean how do you figure out how to make that character work in that way well i think as As a cinephile, I'm fascinated by the idea or the understanding we have of what a film star is.

2:09:51So what is a film star? The film star is someone who occupies the shot, inhabits the frame in a way that is absolutely effortless. And it's always interesting. It's always interesting to look at him or her, depending on who the star is. And I don't think it's really connected to good looks. I mean, good looks are also part of what it is, of course. And I always knew that Wagner would be interesting in the film. And because the film has so many situations where he stares, he thinks, you can see the machines going on inside his head. And he suggests emotion, anger. I think he has a lust for life in the film, the character.

2:10:51He has love. I think this film has a lot of love, affection. even if sometimes it gets brutal and nasty. But I think it has a lot of love and Wagner is great at all of that, showing affection and showing compassion and always being a good man but not naive in any way, just a good man who knows what's happening or is even trying to understand what's happening. around him. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about that brutality too because I find your films to be very sincere and deep but also fairly practical about the heinous consequences of living under, you know, regimes that are dictatorial or under corporate power or any of the ideas that are in your feature films.

2:11:48How do you strike a balance between keeping the viewer involved in the story and getting it connected to the characters, but also making it clear what you mean, what you hope to communicate? Well, I think that if you're telling a story

2:12:12and you want to convey a true sense of life on earth, I think you should go, I think you should be loving when there is love and you should be brutal if violence is involved. Sometimes violence is in the words. If someone is afraid, you should feel afraid for them. You know, it's... I think a lot about how to portray violence, of course. It's an old theme. Cinema, it's ethical. issue it's a technical issue aesthetic issue I of course grew up like so many of us with wonderful teachers like Verhoeven De Palma again Argento and that gives me a map of where I can go um Cronenberg of course major reference um and I don't think I think that if if a certain scene is about brutality it should be brutal I don't think I would make a film which is 100 % violent but when I say this I think of a masterpiece like Texas Chainsaw Massacre which is insanely aggressive and brutal.

2:13:58But that's a different kind of film. But the films I make, I think there is always room for, you know, to giving the right treatment, what I consider the right treatment, to each individual situation. If it's a sexual situation, I think it should be erotic, in terms of human sexuality and a moment of affection and tenderness and sexuality between people. It should be honest and frank. And the same thing about people talking or people waiting for a bus. It should be conveyed in a way that you get it. It's involving, engrossing. I wanted to ask you about Udo Kier you've worked with him on two films he just passed away, film legend you know he's just typically terribly entertaining in your movie and his character is fascinating and it does feel like a real excursion in the middle of the story and I was hoping you could just talk about working with him and that sequence in particular I love Udo Kier of course I was shocked and saddened two weeks ago when he passed.

2:15:20But at the same time, I remembered so much. I mean, that was a man who had such a full life, not only in terms of, you know, the history of cinema, the 200 plus films he made and on all the stories that he would tell us, you know, with Fassbender, and Barbara Sukhova and Lars von Trier and Gass van Sant, which I think gave him one of his most beautiful roles in the wonderful film shot in Oregon with Keanu Reeves and... On My Own Private Idaho. On My Own Private Idaho, of course, which I saw last year again. But I was fortunate enough to work with him in two films, Bakurao and Secret Agent. And it was just, I feel so lucky, all of us, you know, who got to know him.

2:16:27He was funny, he had great taste. He had this sarcastic humor, which was, I mean, we got along. We were good friends and we would exchange messages. And he came to see The Secret Agent in late September at the Beyond Fest at the Arrow. And we sat together and that's when he saw the film. And he was the same Udo as always. And of course, I'll miss him very much. I was already thinking about him for the next film. That's terribly sad. That sequence in particular, I'd love to just hear a little bit about it. There's something really, it's like a microcosm of the bigger idea of the film about what we believe about people.

2:17:15And he plays this German man who has moved to Brazil after World War II. And there's this assumption that he's an ex-Nazi or a Nazi. Well, but coming from the police chief who happens to be a fascist himself. Yes, precisely. And he's in fact not that, he's quite the opposite. And I don't know, where did that sequence even come from? I love this film, but it really stopped me in my tracks when I was watching it the first time. The sequence probably comes from the fact that Hisif has a strong Jewish community. And when I was a kid, my father would go to a tailor who was a Romanian tailor, I think in his 70s at the time.

2:18:01and I believe he was Jewish I'm not entirely sure but I believe he was Jewish and Hisifia also has the first synagogue of the Americas so it has a Jewish community I have many friends, grew up with people from the community and I thought that it's an interesting detour for Wagner's character who is put in the position of having to bond with Euclid as the police chief, who has this one-track mind. He seems to think that Hans is a very interesting character because obviously he must have fought in the Second World War for the Germans. In other words, he's a former Nazi soldier. But in fact, he doesn't get it.

2:18:56I mean, the far right, I think, usually have a problem with contextualization and history. And I think that's where the idea came from. And of course, I think it's a strong scene because it's very much about identity. And sometimes our identities in our bodies could be a scar, could be a birth sign or maybe a tattoo. and he's treated like a circus attraction. And he also seems to be married to another man who tries to get him out of the situation. There was a lot going on in that sequence. And it was an amazing day when we shot the sequence in this incredible location in downtown Recife. And Udo was incredible.

2:19:54He was amazing. And he had some cards with the Portuguese words written phonetically. And yeah, he's speaking Portuguese also in the sequence. It's an amazing moment and a great film. So, you know, nice to hear you speak about it. I did want to ask you before we wrap, you know, this is a much bigger, I assume, exposure for you. the film playing at Cannes and then getting this big release in the United States, and you have entered the awards season apparatus in a real way here. As someone who's been observing films, thinking about films being very emotionally close to the world of films for so long, what is it like to have gotten to this place with something that you have made?

2:20:43to be honest it feels good because I think that filmmaking is the whole nine yards you think about a film like I'm thinking about the next film, the ideas are coming in at some point you sit down and write and then you get the funding you prepare the shoot, you shoot the film You start editing immediately. This film was edited in almost eight months editing, morning and afternoon, from Monday to Friday, then post-production, then it's selected for Cannes, and then you begin to travel. And I think traveling is part of making films. I feel lucky to be able to meet so many people and get so many reactions and see so many other films and meet so many people that have been part of my life for so long.

2:21:54So, you know, it's hard work now, I have to say, because the awards season... They're hustling you around. Yeah, but Neon is doing a really good job, I think, and there's a lot of traveling. Last week I did, I was in New York and then I flew to London and then Rome, Paris, Marrakech, New York again, LA now. Next is Mexico City. And then it just keeps going. But I'll be spending the last 15 days of December at home with my kids and watching films and with Emily, my wife. And then it starts again in January. But I'm in good spirits and I'm happy. You know, it's like, it's what I asked Santa Claus way back then.

2:22:50I wish you well. I really hope you succeed in all of those things. You mentioned you'll be going home to watch films soon. we end every episode of the show by asking filmmakers what's the last great thing they have seen have you been watching things during your journeys? I was very lucky that one of the few days I was home they were screening in Hesifi Chantal Akeman's Gene Dielman with the Restore the 4K and I gave myself the opportunity of spending 3 hours and 20 minutes in a 2 p.m. screening with 19 other people in the screening room. It was a great moment. Do you remember how much time had passed since the previous time you'd seen the movie?

2:23:36I had never seen it in the cinema. I had only seen it on DVD maybe 15 years ago. What struck you seeing it that way? Just the texture of the image. You can see this particular restoration. I found it really interesting because not only can you see the grain but the sound sounds like an old optical 35mm mono soundtrack. You even get a little bit of the hiss, you know. And it really felt like I had spent a full week with that woman in that apartment. It was a fascinating film-going experience. That's a great recommendation, Clever. Thanks for doing the show. Thank you very much.

2:24:29thanks to Cliver thanks to Joanna thank you thank you to Amanda thank you to our producer Jack Sanders who's been freaking grinding this month what are we doing next week oh yeah Wake Up Dead Man yes I want to do a mailbag oh along with that yeah okay great you're just throwing that in that's very exciting I feel like there's a lot of shit going on right now you know bigpickmailbag at gmail.com yeah can we do that Jack Sounds good. Okay, Jack is making us feel like I have to read 3 ,000 deranged emails. 30 minutes of mailbag. Nothing more I love more. So let me Disney AI all the time. Yeah. That's the subject.

2:25:05If you want to talk about Disney's investment in open AI, let's talk about it. Let me give some guidance. Questions, not comments. Thank you so much. BigPickMailbag at gmail.com. See you then.

2:25:23Thank you.