Apple Takes A Bite Out Of Programmatic

0:08Welcome to The Big Story, a roundtable featuring members of the AdExchanger editorial team. Every week, we bring you an in-depth discussion of key developments in digital marketing and media.

0:23Today's episode is sponsored by Basis, the leading intelligent operating system for autonomous advertising. Its enterprise AI solution transforms campaign briefs into strategies and media plans that integrate directly into omni-channel activation. You can learn more at basis.com.

0:44I'm going to organize our conversation today around three different debates we've seen emerge at this conference. First, what emerging programmatic channels look like versus what maturing programmatic channels look like. The second big theme, which is related to the first, is there are these two competing narratives, the growth of the open web versus the idea that the open web is challenged. James also wrote a story that published on Monday, Who Will Stand Up for the Open Web? It's been doing numbers on our site, and that relates to this conversation as well. And then the third narrative we saw emerge, of course, AI, the idea that AI is changing everything versus the idea that AI needs extensive human input and guardrails to make a difference.

1:28So I'm Sarah Sluice, our editorial director, and with me today is Allison Schiff, our editor-in-chief. James who I already mentioned and Joanna Gerber our associate editor who also led the best ad tech trivia I think I've ever seen in my life shout out to Patrick. Shout out you know you know. Yeah and so let's talk about James's scoop first we're in the green room the speaker lounge and James is like guess what I just heard there's a github where someone from trade desk is begging apple to turn back on something that got turned off and uh you know meanwhile the trade desk is not showing any ads on safari to users who have updated their latest ios update that's kind of the you know the the rough outline fill in the details yeah except tldr no go in r do read that's what the defense part yeah so so yeah essentially so since the ios 27 update which i'm it's amazing that it's like ios 27 now it's like i don't know how i've sort of jumped 10 ios but so this released maybe a couple weeks ago and it seems like the trade desk so the But Safari has for a long time had this program where they block data brokers that do cross-site tracking, just persistent IDs, Axiom, and just a lot of the basic data brokers that you know.

3:00They've expanded that list with a lot more of the sort of programmatic companies that we all know. LiveRamp was just added. Permutiv, ID5, the UID program was added. So all of these being the sort of root domains that these services use. And Safari is now identifying when those are in the ad column, not just blocking them. And they have also included ad server dot org, which is the trade desk longstanding, you know, from their birth, like their cookie pool. It's just their ad server root domain. And so they're not just having their sort of matching ability or like ID graph block. They're not able to serve ads whatsoever to Safari users who have iOS 27.

3:47So that's, that's not all iPhone owners, probably a minority who have died. Like I'm a laggard. I definitely haven't downloaded, but yeah, iPhone owners are an important group. And even like some sort of double digit minority percent of Safari is a lot of people. So this is a problem and right. And GitHub, this has this surfaced on GitHub because Ian Meyer, it's a Sarah guy um trade desk head of engineering now has um I wouldn't say begging it's interesting because this is sort of like a diplomatic channel I have I have the quote here because I printed out your article so this this was the exchange um and he flags the issue just kind of you know this engineering way and then he's like thanks John if you have an ETA on your findings feedback that would be appreciated like it just like feels like that email like meanwhile their whole business is broken and they're like thanks and then john's like i will let you know if and when any changes are available for you to test that was apple's response i like the voice

4:50some people might know him is the sort of tech guy on safari team so you know i want to talk about the impacts of this but i think maybe first it just this exchange just felt so representative of the power dynamic that exists between Apple and all of these other companies where the idea that however, you know, large of a percentage of the trade desk business happens on Safari, it's literally a ticket from Apple and they're just like, we'll get to it. Yeah. There's not, I mean, I think, so that is one of the things too, like the best case scenario for the trade desk is just that the trade desk right now is experiencing what like Apple developers know as this slow, very frustrating, like no service kind of Apple, like app review and appeals process.

5:42Which maybe even like, because we just don't know anything about the situation, like maybe it does have to do with the trade that's updating its own like business apps, like Cohen, you know, a lot of apps they have, like our, their services are apps you could put on your phone. Like maybe it's something to do with that, but I doubt it. But yeah, we really don't know. Like it's there's just there's too much out like it's all based on this GitHub conversation, really everything that we sort of understand about it. And I think in terms of the trade desk, did they give you interpretation of the findings before we published?

6:17They did not. They did not provide any context in time for publication. and I have not heard back since with any sort of factual correction requests or updates or anything like that. My guess is they don't know. Like they don't know just as much as we don't know. Like the only people who do know is a handful of people inside WebKit and like who don't like you know they don't they're not this isn't the top one. One of our other reporters did talk to someone who was familiar with what was going on before publication. I think the short answer was, this is a big deal. So I think that's all we know now.

6:56We just don't know if it's going to balloon from there or if it will be quashed. This is a big deal, for sure. And maybe Apple inadvertently assigned ad server.org to this group because it doesn't fit in with Permutiv and ID5 and LiveRamp and all like those like, okay, those are all ID graphs. Those are companies that sell persistent IDs. It's their point. And TradeDesk is having like its DSP access to Safari shut down. And that's, that feels different. So I think that's sort of as well, like Ian Meyer, like I think he says, like, I think you're, they have a different subdomain, which they use for matching IDs with, from that, from that ad server.org domain.

7:39And so he's saying, I mean, the trade desk would rather this not be shut down at all. But he's saying like, I think you need to shut down this like this is what you're what you should be looking at. And so maybe that was like maybe this was inadvertent. And it just turns out to be like a couple of rough weeks. And it's not a big deal because not so many people have iOS 27 yet. But on the other hand, like we don't know. And if Apple that like that, if and when from that from Wylander and that statement, again, and we're interpreting based on the sentence that he wrote, who knows. But if this just turned out to be like a policy, or if they say like, no, we do consider your DSP a cross-site tracking vehicle or something like this, and you're blocked in this way, that's a big deal.

8:24I refer to it as a sword of Danicles hanging over the trade desk, and I feel like it's a sword of Danicles for all asset companies because they could be added to a block list and had no recourse other than reaching out to John Melender on GitHub too. It doesn't necessarily have to be a trade desk only problem. Right. And this reminds you of ATT. We were talking about this yesterday. It's a little bit. My first thought was, oh, ATT rides again. But that's kind of reductive. And I don't think that's the case. ATT was a policy that Apple put in place. And it affected pretty much everybody the same.

9:00Meta lost something like$10 billion of revenue because of ATT. Google was affected. All of these different mobile ad tech companies were affected. But the IDFA still existed. You just had to get permission to use it. This feels potentially more targeted, right? It's a block list as opposed to a broad policy. And that's why I think other ad tech companies should be on notice or be very clued in to what happens here in this case. I'm very keen to find out what the next response on the GitHub is. And I want to tie this into two of the three themes that I opened with at the top of the podcast, the first being kind of the maturing programmatic channels versus the ones that are less mature.

9:44Like clearly this is a case where, you know, ad tech was able to kind of drop these trackers in for years and years and years. And now Apple's kind of done with it. and what was allowed when things were starting are no longer allowed. But then I think also, like, is this a sign that the open web is, you know, on its last breath, it can't serve in one of the main browsers? Or is it a sign that the open web is flourishing, despite being blocked? This isn't great. I can pull out my... Oh, no, my phone is being used. um so i did reach out to a bunch of these sort of other id operators and uh matthew roche who's id5 ceo did follow up he sent over a note because i was sort of wondering like oh like you've been i see you've been added to this program like is this new for you is this like a big deal um and his response like i think it is it sort of is a new step for apple to take to block them from doing their sort of publisher services um core infrastructure right yeah and these are supposed to be like the cookie list companies in part right the advanced identities that maybe are but often i mean they still take third-party cookies where they can get them but they are sort of the idea being there you know based on other signals too and all that but either way They're just sort of ID graph providers.

11:14And, you know, I think they have a lot of big name publishers. He's like, shouldn't it be, you know, the Guardian's choice and that reader's choice? And now Safari is making it its choice, which, you know, that's always been like, this is WebKit's world and you live it. I'm going to tie things together here a bit because I do think that this happening is not great for the health of the open web. But I also think that walled gardens having as much power as they do is going to make the pendulum swing backwards a bit again. And I think that's something that you mentioned in your piece, who will stand up for the open web, that the pricing on these walled gardens is going up.

11:58Like they have all these rules. I mean, maybe rules are not a bad thing all the time. But control is lacking. But there's maybe going to be a desire to do the open web in part because there's too much power and there's not a lot of flexibility in some of these walled garden environments. In your story, you talk about the trade desk, to bring them up again, their point of view that the open web is not just display. The open web is a lot more than that. It can include anything that does open programmatic. And when you do that, streaming comes into the definition of the open web. that feels more likely.

12:38Right. Yeah. I mean, I grew up with like, like Homestar Runner or something. Like my vision of the open web is a sort of fun, free spirited, whatever. And it doesn't maybe include ads at all, but there is like a definition. That is right. From the trade desk perspective, like the open web is where you can bid openly when the open RTV protocol works. I find that definition. Like I've read it. Yeah. I mean, one way to say the open internet is to just go like, like the word open means a lot of a bigger thing now. I have one way to say it is just to change the definition of it. I mean, I'm actually pro definition change because I do feel like the term programmatic isn't used, for example, in like walled garden buying, but I do feel like it's very programmatic.

13:20It's driven by, you know, data measurement, automation, personalization, right? So it's just not, it's not open RTV, but it's programmatic in a broader sense. So with that, I'm going to take a super quick break so we can hear a message from our sponsor, Basis, and then we'll be right back.

13:44I'm Sarah Sluice, Editorial Director of Ad Exchanger. And with me today is Michael Olson, EVP of Client Development at Basis, which is supporting our podcast this month. We're going to talk about something that doesn't get enough attention, paying invoices. What is the cost of slow financial reconciliation and who is the most impacted? Hi, Sarah. Thanks for having me. The cost is time, cash flow and trust. When financial reconciliation takes too long, payments get held up and finance teams, whether they're in agencies or ad brands, are just chasing down numbers. People are spending a ridiculous amount of time figuring out why two systems do not match.

14:29Agencies probably feel it the most because they're stuck in the middle carrying the float. They have the client asking questions on one side and media partners on the other. The longer it takes, the more time everyone spends fixing the past instead of focusing on performance and health and growth of the business. So you outlined a very frustrating problem. I would not want to be that person chasing down invoices. is this primarily a technology problem, a workflow problem, or a people problem? It's all of the above, but I'd lean towards mostly a workflow problem. The industry definitely doesn't have a shortage of technology or data.

15:10We have a shortage of systems that actually work together. And when they don't, people end up filling in all the gaps manually. They end up downloading spreadsheets, comparing reports, sending emails, chasing down discrepancies. It's a mess. Technology is obviously part of that answer, but another piece of software by itself just simply doesn't fix it. It's imperative for technology to actualize omni-channel data monthly and push to reconciliation systems. As an industry, we have to connect the tech stacks interoperably, end to end, and then allow the technology to do the heavy lifting to align the data between the contracts, media plans, media transactions, and the payments.

15:56Okay, so it sounds like technology and workflow can make this just a bit easier. What does automated reconciliation look like? A lot of automation talk right now. And if I'm thinking about the future agentic state, ideally, reconciliation just happens. AI is constantly looking at delivery, spend, invoices, payments, and then flagging issues as they happen. Instead of somebody finding them three weeks later, and in a lot of cases, it should be, the AI should be able to fix those issues without a person ever touching them with the correct harnesses in place. People should only have to get involved when something unusual happens, which is the human oversight.

16:40That gets away from this huge month-end exercise that costs a lot of time and resources and much closer to knowing where you stand financially at any given time. This is the ideal state basis is going towards for our connection with Prisma by MediaOcean, a platform used by numerous agencies for financial reconciliation. Okay, so it sounds like by connecting those two different platforms and adding agentic AI, we can make it a lot easier and people won't have to chase down invoices all the time like they used to. So thank you so much for sharing with us what that would look like. And thanks to Basis for supporting our podcast.

17:17Thanks for having me, Sarah.

17:23And we're back. So we have the three themes that I opened with, but let's talk about AI because we haven't much yet. It was definitely woven through everything. I think we only had one or two, maybe three panels that were actually titled AI just kind of ended up being part of the whole shebang. However, one of the ones that did have AI in the title is the company that, you know, has a confidential S1 in process. They had to defer to all of that open AI. And we heard from Colleen Coulter about how they're building their ads business. Joanna covered it in a story for us. So give us a little bit of what we heard from open AI, both what they explicitly said, and maybe what you would read between the lines from what she said.

18:08Well, Colleen Coulter is the global ad solution lead at OpenAI. So she's deeply involved in this whole ad rollout process for ChatGPT. And like you were saying, they did file their confidential S1. Not very confidential anymore, we all know. Well, the details of that document, you can't read that. Yeah. So there were only so many things that she could say when I asked like cheekier questions, you know, about, hey, are you guys really going to hit$100 million run by 2030? You know, pass. But she talked about ad formats for this totally new channel. And I wonder if the word format is even valid anymore, because this is a truly conversational situation and they do have sponsored ads.

18:57But now they're trying to think about something that makes sense for the environment. And that's totally new. So sponsored agents, they just started testing that where a brand can, and this is user initiated, have a conversation with somebody to help them and make a purchase decision. Because OpenAI. And by somebody, to clarify, she means a robot. Do you think that the brands would get access to the chat logs? I really couldn't say. But I do know that they're very keen to make it clear to everybody that trust is like a number one thing, not to just repeat one of their talking points, but it has to be.

19:36Otherwise, people are not in a community meeting with it. And I'll just go a step further to say, like, trust is going to be the number one thing. But I think there's definitely going to be breaches of trust as part of this process. Yeah, I think anything that we've learned from our coverage over the past 10 years, like, it's totally inevitable. And even like the whole chat thing, I was just imagining like a headline a year or two from now that like, maybe they sent the chat logs and someone didn't realize it was a sponsored agent. And then like something happened. And like, there's just so many ways things can go wrong, which, you know, I'm a very critical person by nature.

20:14So I kind of my mind always goes to all the things that could go wrong. And there's going to be a lot. Yeah. You do something like this? You make a good point. Like, trust isn't a binary thing where, like, this is either trustworthy or untrustworthy. They need to wear some different perceptions of, you know, what is trust? Like, I'm sure there are consumers who would say, oh, I don't mind if they see the chat log as long as it's not tied back to me and my identity. And I'm sure there are other people who would say, oh, showing any customer chat logs regardless of how privacy safe it is or, you know, how much of my identity is.

20:47I want this brand to know me. There are people like that. Right. There are people who are like, I want them to know my first, middle and last name so they can target me with like, you know. Yeah. I was talking, I covered a startup that has served, that started serving ads. You sort of download them as an extension and they could like plug into Claude or whatever. And, you know, while that deal is scrolling and it's putting together a response, it will serve ads. And then you share it's like a 50 50 ad revenue split. And he's starting like a new program where you could sort of like consent to allow him to target like personalized based on your longs.

21:24Like short term to write like and you get like quintuple the revenue or something like that. like that's the idea and i'm like man i'm like you haven't heard from anthropic or open ai and he's like have not heard back from them yet but at some point they're gonna be like you're doing what now like tv commercial for a gentick while you wait for asian to finish you'll see an ad actually honestly it reminds me of the pitch by like uber where it was like okay we're gonna show an ad you an ad while you're waiting for your ride to arrive here you're wrapped with attention you know we got the octobus have some time to kill but if i'm trying to complete a task well you do have to wait for the asians to cut get back to you and then i you know i mean just to myself 10 seconds to myself i mean it's a concept longer than that i'll say like right a trickier prompt high viewability okay so okay so um sponsor chats but like kind of choosing to tell um in terms of all the things that could go wrong but we are going to see new new ad formats from them.

22:22I know they're building super fast. And you also did ask them about, you know, what they think about the open web, since that was the theme of our conference. And did you feel like, what kind of answer did you get there? I mean, the answer was okay. And she talked about citations and sending people back to engage with publisher content. But we are at this weird point in time where, sure, publishers still have advertising businesses, but their traffic is on the decline. So I don't think she could have a perfect answer to that. Like the dynamic is what the dynamic is. yeah it's a different realm of the business most likely as well ad business you know publisher licensing yeah i do feel like once upon a time like they've added all these facebook people at open ai chat gpt and you know like the facebook move was like the audiencing network like oh like where you know where are we like there's great facebook inventory but a lot of their ad business is the open web and now i think it's just like the opportunities and like that's once upon a time that would have been obvious like oh open ai will do an audience extension across the web like that makes total sense and now it's like it makes no sense yeah it's like it's like why bother it might send somebody to a site and you know measurement is really important in that instance but they want people to keep conversing and then converting and they want them to do it in chat gpt right like i will say citations are great maybe if you want to dig deeper you really want if you trust a specific source and i see that this website or this you know publication i really like is a citation.

23:50Great. I'll click on that. But if I'm looking for a question that has a pretty clear answer, and then they give me the answer, and they're like, oh, and this is where we found it. That's not driving traffic back to that publisher. I asked my question, I have my answer. And I'm going to move on with my day. You know, really, like by not advertising, but not saying we're going to like advertise across the open web. That's just them saying, like, okay, we're not going to monetize the open web, like we may sort of ancillarily send some traffic out. But like, we are not going to like systematically like monetize the open web said nothing about that i just don't see it right but right it's just not there i i don't see that however i'll jump ahead to say that you know i there was one presentation i saw with instacart and roku um someone at lunch was talking about linkedin and ctv so i think what we are seeing i know that pinterest is the deal with amazon i think what we are seeing is a lot of off-site extension like outside of open ai i feel like they're not going to go there just yet but i mean linkedin right it's like a certain people are like oh yeah try the video linkedin ads and i guess that's you can get your vdb audience while they're watching their their ctv yeah linkedin served me a ctv ad and i'll see him on linkedin like video too it'll be like james like blah blah blah all those are usually borderlines gets a friend of break i was like the tv just said like jay like james like whoa and i was that's so interesting because that's against meta's ad guidelines like because i've looked before it's i actually find looking at the banned ad list for different companies i've done it for journalistic reasons but it's actually entertaining because you're like i'm entertained by it like all the things that you can't do well people know i was like an anthropology major too so like i also really enjoyed the country specific prohibitions um you know just different things you know every countries have different standards around you know gambling alcohol all these things and yeah look there's countries have standards around those things but they're but they're quite different and there's certain specific things banned in countries that you're like and then just kind of how they how they describe certain for example like like the certain types of like lose weight type odds for example that would be banned like they have very very very uh funny descriptions company and like in another coming country it's like you're not allowed to call yourself that like you actually You're an unwellness company.

26:07Wellness is definitely like, it sounds like an umbrella for all kinds of companies, including many that are banned by Meta, either rightly or unrightly. I don't know where I was going with this. Rightly or wrongly. It's all right. Okay, give me a break. It's been a few days. But yes, so I think that the off-state extension piece was something, I feel like that's like a very programmatic IO type conversation because everyone's partnering with each other and finding different ways to extend. And I feel like that's happening a lot, specifically in retail media, B2B, other places where they might have really great data, but maybe not as much scale.

26:43It's kind of how you bring both of them together. Everything is everything. Everything is everything. I talked to Marriott as well. It's like, okay, they're a huge company, lots of great data, like compelling reasons to use them. But it's like, okay, like there are only so many like TV screens in the room where they can serve this as. Facing the bet. Right, like they need to go somewhere. A lot of these like retailers or like retail, you know, they call it resale media, but some of them call it like mobility or like whatever. Like they need to go to the web because what they have is great data and they don't have all these canvases.

27:17They don't have an infinite scrolling feed with hundreds of millions of people that ChatGPT does. So yeah, like where do you go? It's sort of the opposite of the garbage in, garbage out conversation where for a while people were like, it doesn't matter how much reach you have. What you need is good data. It doesn't matter how good your tool is if the data you're putting into it is bad, then your results are going to be bad. People still say that. Yeah, but now it's a lot less original. And we're like, yes, we know, garbage in, garbage out. But now it's like, okay, even if you have the best data, now I think people are talking more about scale.

27:45And I think that's a conversation we've been hearing a lot about AI is the ability to produce at scale in a way that hasn't been possible before. And did you, speaking of a jet tech, did anyone catch the Microsoft session? Was anyone in that room? Yeah, yeah. So what's the counterpoint there? because Microsoft's also pushing really hard into a gen tech. Well, I think it's just sort of very early for them. Like a lot of it is things we like to see. And, you know, these are standards that just don't exist yet. A lot of people have questions. How are you approaching this? How are you approaching that?

28:22Which are all table stakes sort of things for the rest of everybody. But she didn't have good answers, but not for any reason other than the answer doesn't exist yet. Right. It's just like she made some points to that, like, there's a the human web traffic is going down. But if you're like a publisher just looking at page views, maybe it's going up because you are getting so much agentic inbound. You are getting bots that are scraping and observing your site or dipping into it, sighted for some response or something like that. So these aren't people are you know, she talked about how she actually said this interesting thing is like we don't call them bots because people like the word bot is ruined.

29:02in your mind, like, oh, we think of invalid traffic, non-human traffic. It's like, well, this is non-human traffic. This is bot traffic. But how do we, do we treat it like, we don't treat it like fraud. No, we shouldn't treat it like that. But like, do we serve it an ad? No, we shouldn't serve it. Like, oh, actually, wait, maybe we should serve it an ad. It's like a shopping decision for somebody. Eventually, when you send your agent out to do that research for you, you probably should serve an ad, but it's not going to look like an ad. It's just going to be information. Right. We'll see you'll serve them some kind of like feed like some kind of just oh here's the data that you want to ingest there is maybe some even like value in like here the ad on the page like they do scrape that they observe that and maybe in some way that comes back into the system as some kind of like sign of legitimacy that you were on the web um i don't know but personally i sort of feel like you know from the publisher point of view it's like like i'm gonna treat these visitors to my site like visitors and it's you know an advertiser you bought you buy a tv ad and it played in an empty room and you just you understand that that's part of the deal and you bought an ad on the open web and you served it to a bot this time or something like that like that's personally how i feel i doubt the industry is going to go that way but these standards these definitions don't exist i did well you did because i mean serving an ad to an empty room is less effective than serving an ad to a bot if that bot is making a shopping choice because an empty room is going to buy something for you but a bot could be swayed by an ad, quote unquote, if that ad had some sort of persuasive data in it.

30:33It just informs the recommendation. Or part of their memory. Like at what point is the whole industry just going to need buy bots for bots? That's a fantastic question. Well, I don't know. Amazon blocked shopping bots from what? From what? From Muse? That's, you know, we got some shots fired there. So yeah, good luck. Because I feel like that's where I do a lot of my household shopping, right? But can't use Muse to do that. So I want to pull everything back together to go back to our three themes. I'll wrap up the AI one first. We ended up actually talking about agentic advertising more. So I feel like agentic advertising being this channel with like so much opportunity versus one that still needs to figure out the format.

31:13that the user behavior is shifting so rapidly that it may take some time to tack on the ad backpack and figure out how to carry that. To carry on the ad backpack. You got to have the ad backpack to refuel. I'm not saying that. And I also feel like that relates to me, the agentic advertising relates to our first thing, which is like what emerging channels look like versus what mature programmatic channels look like. Because you see OpenAI, Microsoft and others needing to figure out the data measurement, automation, personalization. They're bringing all these programmatic principles. And hopefully also they do it a bit more cleanly than the first wave of the open web.

32:00Yeah. And I also do think that the open web, I saw a couple of presentations at David Nuremberg, who presented with Bayer about how they added forensics to their open web supply to improve performance. also saw Chris Kane talking to Goodway Group about their SPO. And it just felt like there's a lot of rigor to avoid weird stuff on the open web. And the conversation is less about identifying the problem and more about fairly mature ways to solve it. And I got to give a shout out to Nathan Erberg and Gary, who were saying in unison, standards without consequences are just standards just wait let's say it together standards without consequences are just preferences so they repeated that several times they actually never got it perfectly but i love that and i was like this is just why like you know ad tech is like parenting like i just like right james or parents in the room it's like you gotta have the consequences um and how they use that so i was like this is we're at a decent moment here in terms of mature programmatic and then we got these an unruly child he crossed all the lines of the same yeah that was that was the first that was the first child and then now now the next ones are way more in line and it's a big family right so there's a lot going on younger kids usually just let to run wild yeah so it's going to be the opposite here for one dramatic the first one was where where the parents made all their mistakes and then the second ones are i mean more garbage a very good example of that yeah uh i feel like trusted server too another one didn't come up but yeah now maybe the answer for where this like safari problem is going and i where i hear a lot of these people saying like okay there there's actually a there's it's going on right now they're they're iv tech lab like trusted server they're discussing things that's today that's got a big meeting so we'll see yeah um and then we're gonna close on the final and maybe i'll even ask people to answer we got two competing narratives the growth of the open web versus the open web is challenged is there a team that you're on right now after the conference i'm playing for 13 the open web is changing i don't want to say it's growing because you know it is very challenged but I also don't want to say it's falling off a cliff I'm team challenged but I don't think challenged necessarily means falling off a cliff we've all faced adversity in our lives we're not off a cliff, we're here so, you know, I'm leaving some optimism in there James, I mean I would love to say that I think the open web is pretty much toast like maybe not like Disney plus maybe not an expanded definition of the open internet that just sort of is the like open rpb but like i do think that you know oh like this notion of like once upon a time you just sort of start a blog about stuff you were interested in and like get an audience and spend a little on like web ads and like get an audience and like you can kind of make a living that way and now you probably you got to be a no no yeah you gotta have a tiktok for that yeah that you know and and you don't like the kind of stuff where is Joanna this is going to be like yeah so far beyond you but like stumble upon and you know these are like oh they're being this like fun just web out there it's like nah probably not so okay so we got toast changing challenged I think my answer is going to align with Allison's where I'm going to go to another parenting response both things can be true um the open web is challenged but also the open you know the open web is growing I think it's that the the initial the initial uh the first child is aging it's evolving it's still going to be around i think your article is a great great read in terms of people who are standing up for the open web um i think the growth is going to be more in new channels that are adopting programmatic principles and that was my opening my opening speech i think is what i was trying to come across so full circle yeah full circle so with that thanks for joining us hope we got to see at Programmatic IO.

36:18I did have one person be like, I recognized your voice, which is kind of a, it's an interesting compliment to get. So, or interesting way to recognize people. You normally know people by their face or their name. For me, I'm like, I've emailed you. So thanks for listening. We'll see you next week. Sadly, not in this awesome studio. We'll be remote again. But thanks for joining us. Bye.

36:48This episode is sponsored by Basis, the leading intelligent operating system for autonomous advertising. Its enterprise AI solution transforms campaign briefs into strategies and media plans that integrate directly into omni-channel activation. Learn more at basis.com.