AppLovin's Play To Reach Non-Gaming Advertisers

0:04Welcome to The Big Story, a roundtable featuring members of the AdExchanger editorial team. Every week, we bring you an in-depth discussion of key developments in digital marketing and media.

0:21This episode is sponsored by Verve, an ad solution that helps brands activate consumer intent in real time across platforms. As AI reshapes how people plan vacations, Verve helps travel brands show up when it counts.

0:40Today, we're going to talk about AppLovin. AppLovin is the place to go if you're a marketer looking for mobile app downloads. It's known for crushing marketers' performance goals, but unless you're a gaming developer, you may not be working at all with AppLovin. Yet. So it's against this backdrop that James Hersher has been diving into AppLovin's plan to expand beyond its successful gaming niche. He did a deep analysis of AppLovin's new pursuit of customers beyond gaming app developers. Still not widely known, this emerging consumer ads business is AppLovin's play to attract marketers who aren't looking for game downloads, but other marketing goals.

1:21The ads are still largely served in gaming apps, but the marketers running these ads could be retailers looking for site visits or apps that aren't focused on gaming. So joining us today to talk about this story is James Herscher, who wrote it. Hey. And Alison Schiff, who edited the piece. I'm going to do this too. Peace. I go this way. Peace. Peace for the listeners who aren't watching the video. Peace. And before we get started, let's talk for a moment about Programmatic I.O. New York City. This conference is the established place to talk about disruption. We've seen it before, ad tech upending the media ecosystem.

2:00And this year you can attend to surf the wave of new tech and not get sucked under the surge. We have OpenAI speaking. Super excited to hear about what they're doing. And our listeners can use the code POD10 to shave an extra 10 % off your ticket price. And if you see us there and recognize our voices, come say hi. And lock in your plans for September 28th and 29th. We'll also be recording a live episode of the big story while we're there. So now let's dive in. James, I feel like I always I want to kind of start a little bit with the back story here around Apple. And which, by the way, I confirmed is not named after McLovin.

2:42I know that's the apocryphal. That that was why it was blog. Lovin apparently was the inspiration. One of the best silly names in ad tech or certainly one of the most successful companies with a silly name. Can I make an aside before we get serious? I have to applaud Applevin for keeping their silly name because a lot of other companies in the mobile space pivoted away. Like Braze used to be Appboy. And I like the name Appboy. Or has offers with like a Z, I believe. Or maybe it was an S. App Annie is something else now. I forget. App Annie I'm not bothered by. Like, that doesn't even seem silly to me.

3:25Although I do love good, you know. Although App Love, in terms of what I'm covering, like App Love and Ads, they actually did change their name to Axon. And then they recently changed back to App Love and they were like, nah, like this Axon thing's not working. Yeah, Axon just sounds like you're copying the body spray that McLovin would wear. So, yeah. Isn't Axon just the AI platform underneath Applevin? Yeah, yeah. Okay. I might even prefer Kokai over Axon. Okay. So why did Applevin attract your attention, James? So I've been covering or at least keeping an eye on this business within Applevin for a while.

4:13It was, I think, four years ago. they kind of quietly got into what was then the e-commerce ads beta. Really few advertisers were in there, like well under 1 ,000, probably under 500. In terms of active advertisers at a time, sometimes there were scores or sort of low hundreds. But it did attract a lot of sort of debate in the market. I think it is an interesting one because they're so big, Apple Oven. They're huge. They have tons of inventory, tons of data, incredible scale. They had$1.3 billion in profit this past quarter in contrast to Trade Desk, which had like 60 something million, for instance.

5:00And, you know, Trade Desk is a cash cow. I mean, Apple Oven is a huge cash spewing business. And I think it got a lot of attention because this consumer ads business, there's just this kind of like this dubiousness, this question of like, how are you doing that? Like, no way. You know, I think people just like buy it when Amazon, Google, Meta make these claims like their platforms report this row at. Here's the number of conversions we've had. and you know everyone sort of understands that the platforms report something that's bs and but but in a sense like everyone buys it um it's like okay i understand how these platforms are doing this for me and everyone was just like how is that loving doing this for me because like you said largely in games they're just in games like this whole business essentially is just serving ads in mobile games and everyone's like i've never bought it i've never bought something from I play chess.

5:59I've seen a million Apple oven ads. I've got lots of like casual games on my phone. I've never like I've like, have I ever bought something from there? So I think that like was that to me was this interesting thing of Apple oven trying to use the levers of attribution and like platform advertising to get through this wall of skepticism. And yes, now it's reaching a real scale. It's out of beta. It's a real business to keep an eye on that. The pitch feels very much like the pitch for old school programmatic, right? Reach someone somewhere who would be a customer for X, Y, or Z. Maybe it's the kind of person who would buy apparel, luxury apparel even, but they also play a game.

6:46So you can reach them not when they're reading the Wall Street Journal, but when they're playing Snake or whatever. I'm showing my age. but honestly like sometimes late at night like or maybe not that late but like i'm just like you know shopping for my hobby so maybe i don't know what the overlap group is of like people browsing for random stuff or interrupting your game of chess to be like oh yeah like i need to buy a new coat or something like that and then you just kind of get sucked in but um honestly that would probably be a better people i did talk to like that comes up like app loving fits naturally into like we kind of get lost in the sort of ad techness of it and sometimes it's easy to like disconnect it from how like actual humans behave um but it did come up that it's like okay my budget's in meta spend in the morning it's like the first thing people do they unlike they check their facebook they find that blovin like i see up loving like pop it like random points during the day like okay when it makes sense that people are playing on their phone i need a break from work yeah love and fills its budgets like very unlike meta and it's like okay like it is it does actually make sense when you think about it that these do these things do sort of fit into like the human patterns that they should um and for advertisers who sort of are deliberately thinking about how i'm reaching people at like different times of the day like it did come up like it kind of wasn't like explicit but like a couple advertisers i spoke to was like at loving you're reaching people who are like on the toilet like it's like oh like uh it's like okay you know but i do like when you try and like connect these like okay here's how this looks in a campaign report like try and connect that's like okay how are people actually behaving in the world i would love toilet gamers was a segment but sarah i wonder if they've ever connected like Like I remember when the New York City subways got like Wi-Fi or like internet like service underground.

8:46Like was that like and then all of a sudden, right, everyone plays the games in their commute. Must have must have resulted in, you know, millions in ad revenue at this point. The effect of having cell service underground. But so to kind of sum up what you're saying, James, like as the commerce, you know, retail beat reporter, like this kind of came on your radar as they started to target this business with their ads. And then I like the second point that you make that, you know, there's been this narrative in ad tech, oh, like we can't possibly compete against the duopoly. Like Facebook and Google are so good.

9:23They are like grabbing most of the budget. And here there is a more independent non-Walls Garden setup. I mean, they do seem to have quite the tenterhooks into all of the gaming apps, right? I think that's a whole thing. But they aren't a consumer brand name the way that Facebook and Google are. So maybe this is a challenge for the rest of ad tech. What is AppLovin's secret that perhaps the open web could emulate? I mean, what AppLovin has is like the SDK and mobile mediation um that's that is like the anchor and you know sort of the engine of everything all the all the ad stuff too couldn't work without that um and it's something that you know in like the ad tech world um nobody has or it's owned by it's on my google all you know it used to be owned by twitter like in the instance too that like like pubmatic recently had a you know a new like a news item i covered small thing they got rid of their pre-bid wrapper for the web and i was talking to you know pubmatic about this and they're like but by the way we also have our split side of this is like a for mobile sdk and we would never get rid of that like well our sdk is like that's incredible like we would never and it's just because like the who cares what what who uses your preview wrapper like it doesn't doesn't preclude problematic from having the ability to like serve and get that ad it doesn't preference whoever is the wrapper um whereas like the sdk is an incredible data source you know we'll get into sort of how apple oven creates its own identity graph even though it's not a consumer business um i'm sure that's going to come up but um yeah like the sdk passes along such a unique source of data and also is the supply of advertising.

11:19I mean, speaking of hooks into things, when you have a big SDK footprint, that is incredibly valuable just on the face of it, because it is really hard to get SDKs integrated. It's a whole thing. It's a whole process. And maybe this is a stupid question, but perhaps a revealing one. So if I find the owner of a gaming app, what's the difference between the data that I have as a gaming app owner versus what is visible via the SDK? Because the SDK does have a lot of information, right? Well, the SDK is getting, I mean, it's not a matter of like whether it's more than the publisher, but it's kind of like getting that.

12:05The SDK allows AppLovin to get like that kind of caliber or data. everything about the device you know aside from there's always like little things about like how the clock is formatted and how like the memory is like how much memory is left all these there's all these like little data points what apps are there all that allow it to sort of compile a fingerprint essentially um and the sdk is sort of like the the entree to that but that is that is like the data that's available to the publisher and to the publisher it doesn't really matter They probably have like a fraud provider that analyzes this stuff, tries to make sure it's like valid traffic.

12:45I think it would matter to them, though, if and we haven't really seen this happen. But if Apple were to crack down on fingerprinting, because then you could see your app booted from the App Store. If Apple doesn't like what an SDK that you have integrated is doing, there's been some evidence of that. But it's there have been very few examples. A bunch of years ago, a few apps, I believe, were booted from the app store because of something that Adjust was doing measurement provider that also is owned by Apple. Yeah. I think it also used to be there almost used to be like a whole cottage industry and getting people to download some stupid game.

13:29That was just the whole point was just to get the SDK in there because you could do it. But, you know, Apple has made it much harder. They've cracked down on apps that do this and they've cracked down on like the SDK operators. And there also are like, you know, some rules about some stuff, which is like how they prevent data from flowing and some things that are more like, you know, you have to like honor this. But like how how a fraud provider like in fraud protection provider should work versus like how a marketing purposes provider should work. And like how, you know, how the data should be used.

14:07I feel like Apple Oven really has like they skirt like definitely the edge of what's allowed. They follow they comply with ATT in nullifying the ID field. They don't like if ATT, if the person's opted out, they abide by that. But they do also collect everything they can. And then, you know, they have mechanisms to pass that along as an ID to programmatic bidders. So Apple Evans built this very powerful platform that, you know, Apple with its iPhone and Google and it's with its Android are tolerating, even if it's maybe going up to the edge of acceptability. But it hasn't really done much more than gaming ads.

14:53And I mean, I remember having this conversation several years ago, like with someone in the mobile app space, like it's been a very insular environment where it's like, you download a gaming app, and then are served gaming ads for more gaming apps. It's like just very, it's cross promo all day long. Yeah. But there's no escape velocity for other apps. Maybe you can talk about why that is and the advertisers that you talked to that were kind of dipping their toe in here. What did they think about being in the land of candy crush? They want it to work. They are desperate or at least eager for another ad platform.

15:36And Apple Lovin has incredible sort of billion person scale. scale. So they do want it to work. Like I think that that is the that sort of onboarding, like why they are getting business, why people are testing them is people I spoke to are like from like house and lots of other places where it's like, met it has a glitch. Things are totally messed up on meta. There's always like that precipitates inbound in app love it. Like there's just like frustration and people don't want they want to diversify their business. They want this to work and so there is like an eager testing pool um and yeah so i think that is part of like the early the early like uh yeah uh app loving pioneers for these consumer brands um they they want it to work why put your eggs in uh well i put why put your eggs in two baskets when you can put your eggs into three baskets they're not being dragged kicking and screaming they're really looking to diversify.

16:39So we're going to dive into more of that after the break. Stay with us.

16:49Hello, listeners. I'm Sarah Sluice, Editorial Director of Ad Exchanger. And I have with me today, Anna Slater, VP of Global Brand Partnerships at Verve. Welcome, Anna. Thanks so much, Sarah. It's great to be here. So we know that AI is changing how people plan trips. I've heard the anecdotes from my friends. I've done it myself. So can you give some insight into traveler behavior right now? Yeah, absolutely. I really don't want to date myself, but I've been in the travel industry now for almost 20 years. And having worked so long in one particular industry, it's been amazing to see the overall progression.

17:27And I really feel now that the adoption of AI and this trip planning process is the most impactful transformation we've seen over that time. And looking at our own LLM data here at Verve, consumers are using it for general discovery. Around 28 % of the prompts that we're seeing relate to these types of inquiries. And this is growing. And AI use for travel inspiration has doubled in the past year, especially amongst a 25 to 34 year old audience, which has grown to around 18 % adoption. and we're also noticing there's a shift away from keyword searches like cheap flights to Spain and treating AI now more like a travel agent which is adapting in real time however there's still an element of nervousness around utilizing AI to book you know since the prompts that we're seeing here is certainly dominated by that discovery the timing the itinerary building but I'm sure if we're going to have this conversation this time next year that will have all changed.

18:22So if I'm a brand And I know that AI is owning discovery. People are using it as a travel agent, but not for the booking part of the equation. Where does that leave brands who are trying to reach travelers? Good question. Travelers are using AI to navigate every stage of their holiday planning. But the biggest challenge with this new way of researching is having on brands is the pace at which it takes consumers from dreaming to consideration. Imprompts get incredibly specific and in a very fast way. someone can go from give me trip ideas straight to a shortlist without ever touching a brand's website you know and we're also seeing really heavy vendor comparison you know with travelers using ai to sort of audit those travel providers and then benchmark prices so by the time the brand actually shows up in the conversation the shortlist may already be set so it is a very difficult moment for travel brands at this at this time and then furthermore that intent is scattered across more and more devices and platforms.

19:23But these conversations, they're carrying some of the richest signals that we have ever seen on intent. And AI is forcing the conversation to accelerate the decision making. And if they can tap in to use these signals to target, they're going to get better performance overall and have a chance at winning that conversion of the traveler's itinerary. So you just described a very complicated, complex, scattered and rapidly changing set of consumer behavior. So what steps do you recommend to brands who are trying to capture this consumer intent at this moment in time? Yeah, absolutely. And this is conversations that we're having with our clients daily at the moment.

20:04And the answer really is twofold. Firstly, travel brands need to see the intent and then also follow up and ensure that they show up in it. But there are a lot of brands that are still missing out on both right now. So So on the seeing side, you know, that's LLM data, the conversational signals that we're pulling from AI chat tools. We layer them on top of actually search and zero party signals. And when you combine this, it provides a bigger, fuller picture of consumer intent. And importantly, you know, the LLM data shouldn't be seen as a replacement. It's a real complementary intent signal. So obviously, we're encouraging brands to sort of see what's out there in market.

20:42And then on the showing up side, it means being present inside the AI conversation itself and not just hoping that the LLM happens to mention you in the brand. Well, thank you, Anna, for those concrete steps and recommendations. And thank you to Verve for supporting AdExchange, your podcast. Thanks so much, Sarah.

21:08And we're back. So these new e-commerce advertisers, has App11 reported at all the revenue that it's getting from these non-gaming marketers? It has not disclosed its consumer segment yet, hasn't broken that out. I don't think it's given any sort of guidance in terms of number of advertisers it's had or like it's added since a general release. So yeah, it's still pretty quiet now. During the earnings call, though, I read your story about it, the Q2 call. One of the investors made some comment like, well, it's been six weeks. So what kind of revenue are you seeing? Which is so funny to me. It's like, guys, get a grip.

21:50Give them a minute. it um well so we're now talking about earnings so i think one reason that app 11 has been on my radar recently has because because of all these activist investors these short sellers it's something that we've seen over the years um and ad tech i remember crudio has has uh had a lot of them on it on its back over the years so the apple been stuck it's down more than 50 percent year to date and there's been a lot of claims like oh it's performance is too good to be true like just a lot a lot of shade on people who by the way are short selling aka betting on the stock going down so you got to take that with a grain of salt but like how does that sit with what you're talking about like if at all the short seller stuff was not really on my plate I did not like get into the short seller reports, it's definitely hard to avoid.

22:49A lot of people I spoke with, literally, I don't know, three or four people who I spoke with didn't want to be named because, just because of short sell, they didn't want to get dragged into the short seller stuff. A couple of people had even discussed at Blovin or written about them before and been approached by short sellers who wanted to talk to them, wanted to like maybe like amplify or distort support their own writing. So they were, they just, it was a strange thing because I hadn't seen that. So talking to people before they were like, ah, don't even, you know, oh, you can sign me. You can use the material, but just don't want to bring my name.

23:21I don't want to get like dragged into this fray. I don't think it is. I don't think that's why Apple oven stock has sunk like this. Like Apple oven is also sort of the standard bearer for a lot of software. Like people talk about like, oh, like SaaS is getting crushed by AI, like Salesforce, AppLovin, like that's what people are talking about. It's just, you know, these are just a tough time for hyper casual mobile gaming, like that market has contracted and a lot of it has sort of accumulated to the top, not the sort of long tail where that AppLovin really dominates. So I think there are a lot of headwinds.

24:02I don't think the short seller one is like, you know, the end all be all. They have gotten cleared, like there was an SEC investigation due to the short seller reports. So, you know, I don't I don't think that that's necessarily why investors are are down. I yeah, I really think it does come down to what's up with the consumer business. I think they thought that this would be a new true revenue stream and like a pillar much earlier. Like, you know, I think Apple and CEOs there, he was kind of asking for pleading for patience, like take, it's going to take some time, we are going to be slowly and deliberately working with a small number of advertisers that makes sense for us.

24:51And we're going to try and improve it and build out small, which I think is sort of AppLovin's way. In a way, I'm shocked to a degree that AppLovin has not gone into other apps. Why just mobile apps? If you're so great at mobile apps, why aren't you serving ads in a million other apps? Why not all over any app in my device? Why not the mobile web? Why do you not do video? Why not CTV? They own a company called World, which is a little sort of CTV streaming platform they bought five, six years ago. But really, they don't like they're a one trick pony. That's all about mobile gaming. And I think that that is sort of the thing.

25:28We're going to start with a concrete number and we are going to like build this number, this group out. We're going to like prove it with them as opposed to, you know, advertisers want the investors. I mean, want to see them get to like a million advertisers right now. they're probably at like some sort of small thousands of advertisers in that consumer segment. If I had to sort of lay a bet, you know, they're not going to reach like an advertiser, like you were saying, Allison, literally he was like, you've been at this for six weeks. Like, when are you going to, when are you going to be at the size of like a Google and Facebook?

26:01And it was like, I was like, like, yeah, when are you going to add like the next 3 million or something accounts? I don't think that that's necessarily. Yeah, of course it's what they want. But like, I think that's like, Oh, that doesn't make sense for us right now. and would just be a distraction. So yeah, it is kind of part of the thing. We're going to make this work within the mobile performance marketer mindset that has always worked for us. And we're not going to go get into all these other channels and types of marketing right now. Yeah. I feel like coming into this as more of a moderator of this discussion, I can see why these new commerce advertisers like kind of want to drink that kool-aid and like get in on these different gaming apps it feels like a place you'd want to advertise um and i just wonder yeah what the what the block is like what the hidden blocks are that aren't being talked about because i do think like there there has historically for example been a little bit of a um I think a little bit of turning people, turning the nose at gaming app, like kind of dismissive, they're childish, like, you know, and I think that's something you saw in like, the IB New Friends or the gaming friends, where they were trying to kind of be like, oh, everyone's a gamer, like women are gamers, like they're not like dudes in a basement, like, especially casual gamers, like it's definitely something for everyone.

27:33I do think Apple Lovin is burdened with this, you know, mobile gaming. It's like a bit of like a scummy kind of space. Like in a lot of ways, there's been a lot of very like cynical. Like I said, there are whole apps that were just trying to get SDKs, get the, you know, apps that are trying to get installs by saying like, you know, I've seen weird gaming app ads. Like there are some like weird, very off-putting gaming app ads you will see in all the normal places. not yeah not even like in not safe for work but like in yeah all just sorts of weird ones a lot especially now with like gen ai stuff and there's a lot of like in like the mobile gaming app inventory like the supply is kind of like you know there's a lot of moving around the x so you get a click and like fudging around with what's like the sort of safe zone on the ad and yeah i think app loving it's part of people's the skepticism is like okay you must be just getting your fudging clicks or something, you know, like you're not getting a purchase, you're just doing something like that.

28:35Which, you know, hey, like Facebook. It's in a lot of performance track now, like it's not just a download, like it's also that you have to take some engagement post download. Okay. Not everyone does.

28:55it's really the great irony of advertising that the more performance focused um you are as a platform the more you attract fraud like thinking about the affiliate business and what happened with fia the phia um company which if anyone hasn't been following that that's bill gates daughter had this affiliate um toolbar that was like inserting code that it shouldn't have to get credit it's the same thing that like one too like had been yeah and it really all those like very cynical affiliate plays or browser toolbar kind of services injecting cookies at the last minute and i've loved it it's the closer you get to last click the more the you know the easier it is for fraud to just like pull that off.

29:46It's hard to like do some kind of like fraud scheme with, you know, TV, okay, you can like bot make a TV ad that sells some like garbage product or something, try to get people to call a number and bottling or something. But like, yeah, like with an affiliate thing, or, you know, or I and I wonder how I mean, you're talking about these companies that are excited to test app 11. But I do think there's also this baggage of companies who got burned. I'm thinking about not too long ago, Uber had this lawsuit against Fetch saying that it lost more than$100 million in fraudulent ads. But these are the leaders of the organizations now who remember all of this and are going to tread cautiously when they just see this attribution that's like great and they they want to be able to tie it to deeper business metrics perhaps that's an area that apple oven would need to to move into more um you know versus being a specialist and the the gaming the game i think they are that is part of their sort of sorry like deliberate you know sort of slow growth strategy that it means like the the advertisers that they're working with are the types who are working themselves with like Northbeam, Triple Whale, House, Incremental, like they have these incrementality testing, third party source of truth.

31:14So in a sense, they're kind of like a sophisticated, they're a bit like they're like a solid spending e commerce brand, as opposed to being like a big legacy retail brand, or like a smaller local kind of brand. And they walk, They are trying to work with like, OK, let us work with your third party source of truth and try and prove it to them. We're going to like we are going to that was another one of the things to like the other big platforms. They don't care about customer service or like they don't you know, if you're like, oh, I want to bring my particular like I want to do like a geo holdout of Amazon.

31:50Amazon doesn't care. They're not going to like work with you to like help develop this. Like they, you know, Google and Meta will say like, here's your products for incrementality testing, but we're not going to like work with you and kind of, oh, like try and create this package of data that does this. Like App11 will do that. I heard that about Snapchat too. I think if you're like a contender brand, this is one of the ways that you break in is by like caring about customer service, frankly. It is a really low bar. I like that. That stood out to me, too, in your story, because you talk about during Prime Day, someone like had an issue with their meta, you know, account, which you've also written extensively about.

32:33But, you know, Apple 11 was right there. Amazon. They couldn't get your back from Amazon on Prime. Oh, OK. They couldn't get your back from meta. That's forget about that. Got it. Oh, of course. So, you know, where I guess let's kind of close with like what's what's next here. Apple ovens making this play, presumably if it's very successful, it could perhaps grab budget from other digital ad outlets or perhaps these other walled gardens that don't pick up their phone when something goes wrong. Like what's kind of the timeline, do you think, for this potential change and any specific metrics or milestones that you're looking out for?

33:13Well, I guess I guess someday Apple Oven will will disclose its consumer segment. That'll be fun. It was, you know, it was a long, long time before Google broke out YouTube, say, or anything like that before Trade Desk has not broken out any of its channels or anything. So, you know, someday we'll see that. That'll be great. And I feel like that'll be a real sign that this is like this is a serious business. This is, you know, this is. But that is another thing. at some point before then, we're going to hear a number about like, oh, we've reached 10 ,000 advertisers in our consumer ads program.

33:50These are like, I feel like they're sort of quarterly benchmarks I'll be keeping an eye out for. And definitely, anecdotally, I think we'll see if we continue to hear about advertisers adopting AppLovin and that being sustainable, Like they are kind of a last click performance generator. So part of it is like, okay, can you make this work forever? I'm not going to work for you. And you're going to slurp up all the like everything that's at the bottom of the funnel. You're going to do a good job of targeting that. But can you make this work for years on end, like Google and Meta and Amazon? You know, that's something that they have to prove.

34:34and I feel like one of the things that I like about AppLovin or sort of covering it is part of it, I feel like they are this reflection. A lot of the things that make people like uncomfortable or skeptical or dubious about AppLovin is just sort of in their mind, something they accept from Google and Meta or Amazon, like in terms of, okay, like visibility in my campaign reports where it's like, okay, AppLovin is actually maybe giving you more than performance max. And just, you know, the sort of assumptions about, oh, this ROAS works. Like, oh, AppLovin's doing this, like, sort of clicks. Like, they're just gaming the, like, interface.

35:13It's like, well, like, what do you think is happening, like, as a user on Reels when you're swiping now? And all of a sudden, it's like a click through. Like, you know, these are, they are following the footsteps of other platforms, which I think is sort of interesting. and part of the like people just kind of assume that oh like google meta amazon like they're really generating for me um and and they i feel like they should be reserving that same kind of skepticism for all their platforms okay cool well thank you james for your reporting check out the full story on ad exchanger and stay tuned for whatever we have in store next week

35:57This episode was sponsored by Verve, an ad solution that helps brands activate consumer intent in real time across platforms. As AI reshapes how people plan vacations, Verve helps travel brands show up when it counts. Find out more at www.verve.com. That's V-E-R-V-E.com.