Alex Babahmadi, PR & Brand Partnerships

0:00Tessa: This is the business of modelling, a place where we go deep on discussions about modelling and the entertainment industry more widely. I'm Tessa Dewing, the Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating 50 years in business. My guest in LA today is Alex Babahmadi, a London-born brand strategist currently heading up PR and brand partnerships at Freedom Models LA. With a career spanning the UK, Europe, the US and the Middle East, he's worked with some of the most recognisable names in fashion, from Elite World Group and Premier Model Management to Amanda Wakeley, Carolina Herrera, Erdem and Maison Margiela.

0:47Tessa: Hi Alex, thank you for being with us today. Thank you. Such a pleasure to meet you. Likewise. I'd like to start by hearing about your journey really so where it all began what you've learned along the way. I grew up in London, West London. Harrods was like kind of next door and my mum was always very into fashion. She used to you know as a kid obviously she would like dress me up in all these designer brands that she loved and everything and there was always you know fashion magazines everywhere my parents worked in nightlife so it was part of you know the job was obviously they had to look good and whatever um so that was something that was instilled in me like from a very very young age that kind of curiosity about clothes and what they represent and how you can express yourself through them I ended up studying languages at university for my undergraduate because I wanted to become a diplomat, which is incredibly non-fashion related in a way.

1:48Tessa: Was that something your parents sort of supported and pushed you into? Yes. They didn't want me to do anything to do with nightlife or hospitality because obviously that's what they did and it's very, very tough, that kind of... Sure. It's a bit like fashion in that sense. It's a very, very tough industry, very cutthroat. Obviously the diplomat thing didn't work out. Where did you go to university? I went to university in London as well. Right, yeah. And what languages did you study? So I studied French, Spanish and German. Are you fluent in? I'm fluent in French and Spanish. Not so much German.

2:27It's a very hard language to master, I'd say. I then lived in Spain for a bit, lived in Portugal for a bit and lived in Berlin for a bit. I ended up interning at a fashion house in Berlin. completely by accident met someone on a night out who needed help and off I went and I didn't really realize that I could be in the fashion industry you know after being told for so long we don't want you to be part of it you know look at a job that's quote-unquote more serious it really opened my eyes that you know fashion isn't a frivolous job you know so I did that

3:08Tessa: and then so so into so you interned before you did your you then came back and then how did you find interning because there's quite a lot of people talking about that now saying you don't get paid anything and some people saying and actually you don't really learn anything either I guess that depends where you're interning I think you've hit the nail on the head it really depends where you intern and who you intern for I think I was quite lucky when I interned for that company in Berlin it was it was it was a startup it was just her and one other person and me um I would do anything and everything which is good because actually if it's small you do get to see yeah you get the whole process and you get to really understand and learn yeah whereas if you're in a massive organization you might just be seeing one part of it and most of the time you just make coffee so I feel running around taking clothes back yeah so I feel it really does depend but I do think that the interning experience is truly valuable because it gives you an opportunity to see if it's really what you want to do.

4:16I personally was quite lucky that I could... Financially, you could afford to do it. Financially, you could afford to do it. And especially back then, you know, the UK was still in the EU, so the EU would give grants, you know. I was quite lucky in that aspect, but I truly do believe that without having had that internship opportunity I don't think I would have been able to land my first job.

4:38Tessa: And that really cemented the fact that you knew that fashion was the career you wanted. Exactly.

4:47In my last year of university I wanted to start working immediately. I couldn't wait to get out of university and get into the real world. so towards the end of my final year just before finals I ended up getting my first job which was I became the second assistant to Loren Scott the fashion designer in London. And this was out of

5:09Tessa: Central St Martins? No this was out of my first degree in London. My degree in Central St Martins I did that three years ago actually so that was that was something that during Covid I decided I I wanted to go back to school. Okay. And I went back to do that master's at Central St. Martins. And how did you find that, sort of being a more mature student? Interesting. I definitely took it more seriously, I have to say. And it was nice to go somewhere so iconic and really feel that energy. And I had always wanted to go to Central St. Martins. It was a dream since I was a child. As I said, my parents worked in nightlife and their nightclubs and restaurants were in Covent Garden.

5:56And at the time, that's where Central St. Martin's was. So I would be a child going from home to see them at the restaurant and I'd always see this building. And I'd always be like, I really want to go there one day. Everyone that seems to walk out of this building is very cool, very interesting. So it was nice to be able to do that in my life.

6:15Tessa: So that's interesting that you've kind of done it the other way around, because by the time you went to Central St. Martin's, you'd already had some really great jobs in the industry. What do you feel you learnt going back to Central St. Martin's that you hadn't learnt in the industry? The biggest thing I learned when I went back to school was I truly started to learn about the nuts and bolts of business, which, sadly, when you are working in the fashion industry, that seems to be quite separate to everything else. You know, quote unquote, the suits are very, you know, sit in their office, deal with the financing.

6:53They don't really share much with the PR team or the marketing team or, you know, merchandising team or anything like that. you know I didn't know what a P &L was I didn't know what any of those things were any budgets that I was managing as a PR manager you know they were very basic and in an excel you know it was like just make sure you don't go over this number sure every year without really understanding what was behind it and why and and that was the thing it was the why I was always you know I was always questioning okay great thank you for x amount to spend but why can't I have more or why am I being given this amount why is it not more why is it not less how does this work out how do you forecast this kind of thing and that's something that I never really learned in any of the in any of my jobs that I was working at until I went to business school and and they taught me why you know and also learning you know accountancy things and learning things like that which I think are truly invaluable like in a creative industry it's so easy to get wrapped away with the beauty and the fun and the glamour and and yes it's very hard work but so easy to get wrapped up and carried away with the fun um it's very easy to forget that things need to be paid and you understand where that money comes from and why experience is invaluable i think that without without that interning or shadowing someone or you know finding a perhaps finding a mentor through LinkedIn or through Instagram you know or working with there are so many really interesting kind of platforms out there that especially if you are a person of color that are doing amazing things bridging you know bridging people to the fashion world that perhaps 20 years ago might might not have been able to enter the industry as it was a lot more elitist 15-20 years ago than it is now But I do think the internship experience is invaluable because fashion is so big.

8:59There's so many things that you can do. It's not just design or PR. There's event production, there's creative production, shoot production, merchandising, sales, even finance and accountancy. And even in the more nitty gritty of clothing creation, there are garment technologists, production teams, pattern cutters, all these things that you might not really know about until you are inside a company and you can see these things. And I'm not saying that people should intern for three years. Absolutely not. No, no.

9:35Tessa: And I'm thinking as well of people that can't afford to. Exactly. There's a lot of people there that are doing that, but they're having to work every night and every weekend just to pay their rent. Just to pay their rent. but I do think that being quite strategic and being quite long term with your vision yeah you know six months is a really good amount of time to be able to learn through osmosis at the company to see what you like what you don't like yeah and then take that experience and take it somewhere where you can finally you know start earning yeah you know a nice wage um and I really think that Without me having done that, I don't think I would have ended up doing what I was doing.

10:19Tessa: So going back to London in your first job, what did you sort of learn there and then where did you go from there? So I always say that I worked for Lauren Scott as her second assistant. She was a fashion designer. She had her own semi-couture house. She was also a stylist at the same time. Nicole Kidman was her biggest and main client I did a bit of everything I helped her first assistant with the styling I helped Lorraine with personal things it was also the advent of Instagram and Facebook and social media marketing and I was the youngest person there but by a country mile so it was very much like you do it Alex you deal with it learn you figure that out and that was incredibly interesting and that's how I learned everything I loved working with her I call it the baptism of fire but it was a perfect training ground especially to work for such an iconic celebrity at that time and truly see the value of celebrity power and star power first hand was incredible It was, you know, Anna Wintour would be coming to the office.

11:37She was best friends with Tom Ford, who would come to the office. So-and-so would come to the office. These amazing photographers would pop by to see her. Incredible stylists, all these other amazing editors, like Jefferson Hack, who obviously runs Days. They would just pop by to the office to see her. And that was amazing. I'd never thought I'd be in that world at 22. and it was the perfect training ground to then set my foundation to where I went to afterwards. It was hard work, but I do feel that anything easy isn't worth it. You know, anything that like anything that and also that I know it's very boring, but it isn't a job if you love it.

12:19You know, if you really do love what you do. Yes, it's hard. And yes, there are days you don't really want to go into the office at 6 a.m. to pack a box that needs to go to Italy that day. but there are other days where you're flying around the world.

12:33Tessa: You sort of pinch me moments. And pinch me moments where, you know, Loren brought me to LA for the first time ever, you know. And I was only 22 and we stayed at the Chateau Marmont and I'd wanted to stay there since I was a child and had seen it in the movies. So there are all these amazing things that do come with the hard work and the slog. So I was at Loren Scott until she sadly passed away. I then went to work for Amanda Wakeley. Again, very iconic British designer. Learned a lot with her. I learned how to work with Grace with her. Because a lot of the clients obviously were part of the royal family.

13:21And a lot of the clients were celebrity clients. and I really, really loved working with her. It was so nice and also it really opened my eyes in terms of retail because she was such a big retail presence in the UK and it wasn't just London. She would take me to Manchester, she would take me to Leeds, she had stores there and it was so interesting to learn about these customers and these women who were based in cities that I had never been to actually. I grew up in London, didn't really leave London, didn't really explore the UK until I started working with her. And I was with her until I wanted to work with talent.

14:06So I applied for a job at Premier Model Management. And, you know, Carol White is the most iconic model agent in the UK. And I applied for a job there. And I didn't think I would get it, to be quite honest with you, because it was so different to what I had been doing previously. And that was very, very fun. A bit like Lorraine, Baptism of Fire, learned a lot very, very quickly. And then I got a call from someone at Elite to come and head up talent PR for the agency. And Elite, you know, it's the biggest model management network in the world. It was very hard to say no to them.

14:48Tessa: So you were global director of talent publicity at Elite World Group. Yeah, I mean, that's awesome. That must have been a moment where you were like, okay. I was very, I was like, oh, wow, this is a bit. I was also very young when I started working at Elite. Yeah. Perhaps a little bit too young. Yeah. So Premier was your first foray into talent management. Exactly. So talk to me about that job. What were you doing there? What did you learn there? So Premier, I mainly, I headed up PR for the agency and for select talent. and that involved working very very closely with the agents on the image of the models what they were wearing where they would go what events what brands we should align them to and I also worked on Carol's PR as well as you know the agency in general it was it was very it was very fun primarily like Carol has fostered a very fun environment to work at and as it was my first job in talent management it was a lot of learning on the go so I learned on my very first day when going to an event with a talent the talent needs to get their photo taken by getty images it's something that is so obvious um now to me and it's something so second nature but on my first day I was very I was like okay why I don't really understand why um so it was I learned a lot on the job and for people that don't know why yeah and and it's important because Vogue do best dress galleries, Elle do best-dressed galleries, also the tabloids, they need to get imagery from somewhere.

16:20And the purpose of going to these events is to be seen. And those images amplify the being seen. Yes, you are seen at the event by designers and by people in the industry, but how are people outside of the industry going to see you? They're going to see you through...

16:38Tessa: And a lot of the press get their images from Getty. Exactly. They're going to see you on Daily Mail, and Daily Mail get the images from Getty. so that was premiere was very very very very very fun yeah and so when you went to elite world group where were you working there where was your office so I was based in London right we the P the PR team were scattered across the world so I was in London our global director of corporate PR was based in Milan and then we had another PR director who was based in the in the US and the reason that Elite had done that was that we essentially could create a 24-hour press office just in case anything were to happen with the agency or with a talent someone would always be available so you were basically you were managing all of you managing talent across the four big cap of fashion capitals exactly you have one of you in each exactly what does your typical day look like it was um I really don't like to say this but no day was the same I know that sounds a bit silly I think the industry's like that.

17:40Tessa: The industry's like that. That's why we love it. Exactly. So, you know, I would one day would be prepping for, you know, prepping talent to go to the fashion awards. Another day we would be, you know, working with press on features for talent that were going to the Met Gala. Other days we'd be working really close. We'd work with the agents on helping on image and what the models would look like. other days it would be you know crisis management because um the press love to vilify modeling agencies don't get me wrong crisis management is not something i enjoy doing there are people out there that truly love that adrenaline and that chase it's not something for me having to come up with a narrative very very quickly and having to liaise with very high level press um you know it would be the deputy editor of the Guardian, or the deputy editor of the Times, very high-level journalists that I wouldn't normally interact with.

18:39I would normally interact with the fashion teams or the features teams. So it was very interesting, and I feel I learned a lot about myself, but it's not something I enjoyed doing, to be quite honest with you. And it's something I was very glad it wasn't my full-time job. Sure.

18:57Tessa: And what was your approach to developing a models brand outside of the traditional work? So things like PR features, public appearances, that kind of thing. Well, to be honest, it always begins with the agents. The model agents at the agencies I worked at work tirelessly to get these talent such incredible bookings. Without that, the PR team and the marketing team don't necessarily have the ammunition to be able to create stories. Feeding you with the stories and with the content. And it's your job to get there. To amplify that. And I really loved working with, I loved, and I love, I still do it.

19:35I love working closely with agents. I love hearing what their plans are for the talent and why. You know, why are we going to, why are we launching this model with Prada instead of JW Anderson? Why are we launching so-and-so with Burberry and not another brand? and there is a lot of reasoning behind as to why you know it's different casting directors different stylists you know who is affiliated to what type of magazine and it's being very it's being they are very strategic very very strategic you know they'll they will know if someone will be in vogue and if they and if vogue is their aim for that modelling question they will go down one route.

20:21If they know that the model is destined for dazed and ID, they will go down a different route. And that was so interesting to see like the mind of these agents and why. And I love that they would provide us with all this amazing meat and ammunition that we can then amplify and, you know, and expand and take it to brands to work with talent on a different capacity, not just a modeling capacity, but on a brand partnership capacity or on an image capacity, you know, and that's what, I love that. It's something that is, without model agents, without these amazing bookers, we would not be able to do what we do.

21:05And I have to say, I really felt that working at Premiere, it was so interesting to watch them launch a new face. I truly believe in the UK they are one of the best agencies launching a brand new talent I didn't know that that's how you did it when you work in PR as a brand it's so different as to when you work PR for a human being you led the campaign that saw

21:34Tessa: Adut Akech named the model of the year in 2019 which is a huge moment for her talk us through what went into that It was the most proud moment I ever felt in my career. Again, the agents worked so hard on getting her. She started with Chadwick's in Sydney, didn't she? And she's still with them. Yeah, she's still with them. So she started at Chadwick's in Sydney. Joseph, who runs Chadwick, obviously sent her to Europe. She met the Elite Paris team, and the whole of Elite team, it's Fashion Week. The entirety of the Elite network go to Paris for Fashion Week, where they meet new talent, of course.

22:13And immediately she was signed. And I think it was the season afterwards, she debuted for Vaccarello at YSL. And it's just been an upward trajectory for her since then. That year, 2019, if I'm not mistaken, the agents worked so tirelessly. I think she did like seven Vogue covers. Three of them were September issues. There was ID covers. There were Dazed covers. It was not only that, She was also an ambassador to the UN as she grew up in a refugee camp in Kenya. And with all of these stories that the agents were crafting, I started to work with them very, very closely on this campaign for Model of the Year.

22:54At that time, she truly was embodying fashion and exactly what fashion at that moment in time really meant to the industry. we worked very very closely with the british fashion council on getting her to a position where the british fashion council could you know nominate her as as one of the model of the year and then working really really closely with the agents we crafted a very strategic kind of pr standpoint of what events is she going to do in the lead up to the fashion awards what interviews is she going to do before the lead up to the fashion awards obviously we knew i would say a few days before the fashion awards we knew that she had won um obviously we didn't tell her that was a very very very it was very hard to keep that secret um but it was it was amazing you know i we were all together you know her agents myself her some of her friends uh we were all together watching her rehearse her speech before, you know, before we went to the awards.

24:02I was very much like, just rehearse your speech because you never know. Rehearse your speech. Rehearse it. You never know. And watching her, you know, walk up and receive that award, it meant so much to her. It meant so much to us as an agency. It meant so much to, you know, the community. It meant a lot to fashion. and it was definitely a very, there were definitely some tears shed with her, you know, between us after she then came back into the backstage with Edward Ennful and Pierre Paolo who had given her her award at them and it was amazing to see, you know, the fact that as a team we had come together and all worked so hard on achieving this goal and it meant so much to everyone and I think that was it truly shows that like teamwork really does make the dream work

24:56Tessa: um but yeah and what makes her so special this is more of a personal thing I think she is one of the kindest and most like pure of heart people I've ever met um she's incredibly incredibly hard working um very very humble um and just really a pleasure to work with and that's something that is heard across photographers that have worked with her, editors that have worked with her.

25:29The biggest pinch me moment was coming to LA at 22 with Loren. Yeah. And having to run door for an event that we were doing. I had never run a door before. I had no idea how this worked. I was like, don't you just let everyone in? So people kept saying, no, we don't do that. There's a list. And I just never realised that I would be in L.A. doing something so fun and frankly quite glamorous at 22. Prior to that, I'd never been to L.A. As a family, my mother's from Portugal, so as a family we'd just go to Portugal on holiday. So to be whisked away and to such an amazing...

26:13Tessa: And at that point, did you ever think that you'd be living out here? No. working no I never thought I'd be out here but it planted the seed of me really wanting to come out here and my journey to LA was you know it was very random I never thought I'd end up here so where did you then went from London to the Middle East yes did you do you do bye yeah I went how did that move happen so I one of my colleagues at elite Nuno who was the the director of celebrity partnerships and for elite in paris he a lot of his clients were the middle were middle eastern a lot of tourist boards and you know award ceremonies and that kind of thing and he asked me to help him on a project um with fashion with a with they're called fashion trust arabia so it's a huge uh imagine the cfda but for the middle east um so an incubator for talent for design talent from the Middle Eastern region.

27:11They provide mentorship to Middle Eastern designers, bring those designers to the US and to the UK, introduce them to stores, mentors, PRs, all sorts of things. They do a very big award ceremony once a year. And my colleague Nuno was on their board and worked very, very closely with them. And we took 12 of our supermodels with us to Qatar. in 2021 and it was eye-opening. I had never been to that part of the world. It was truly quite mind-blowing in so many different ways. And then I'd been at Elite for five years. I wanted a change but I didn't really want to stay in London. So honestly I left Elite and the next day I got on a plane and moved to Dubai.

28:03it was very it was very um it's quite random to be honest with you but i was going on an adventure

28:10Tessa: i'd never really so you didn't have a job at that point you had no job i had no job i'm just gonna go i'm just gonna go um i'd say and you just like rented something for a bit and then you figured out see what there is um so i yeah i got to dubai um very very kindly my network in london had hooked me up with some editors that lived out there. So I met, you know, the editor of Vogue, the editor of AD, the editor of GQ, and they very quickly told me the lay of the land, and this is what you do, and blah, blah, blah. They introduced me to some other people, and they introduced me to this agency, who currently, they are the biggest, they're the best agency for luxury fashion in the Middle East.

28:55And they introduced me to them, and thankfully I got a job and I started working with them, doing PR for Caroline Herrera, Erdem, Maison Margiela, Dries Van Noten, a bunch of different very high-end brands. And Dubai was my biggest challenge ever.

29:17Tessa: Well, that's cool because they're all just coming into Dubai. It was a new market for them, wasn't it? It was a new market for these brands. It was a new market for me. And this agency really gave me the opportunity to, you know, lead on these clients and learn very, very quickly how to storytell in the Middle East. And it was very interesting. It was, as I said, the biggest professional challenge in my career, having to essentially start from scratch. I enjoyed it. It was, but it was very hard. It was something that, I mean, I didn't last long. I lasted a year and a half and it wasn't for me.

29:54But I'm very glad that I was given that opportunity to be able to work with these amazing brands in the Middle East.

30:03Tessa: And again, it widens your experience and your knowledge. I have to say, as a market, it's so interesting the way that fashion operates in the Middle East. It's so different to the rest of the world. And it's so nuanced. It's so embedded in cultural nuances, which was incredibly fascinating for me. To the point now, obviously, you know, some of my talent here have been flown out to the Middle East. And I still work with a lot of clients out there. And, you know, one of the talents that we represent is a Lebanese DJ who is based in L.A. And, you know, she went out to Dubai, when was it, a few months ago to DJ for a Gucci party.

30:47and she also you know was picked by Lueve to shoot their Ramadan campaign which was their first ever Ramadan campaign which is a huge deal and I loved that like I still have that I still have that connection to the Middle East it also taught me how to push myself just as me as a human being I felt that London you know having grown up in London and worked in London for so long I felt very comfortable I had my community we you know especially in fashion like we all knew each other we were so collaborative we all went you know went to have drinks at the same place it was it was a nice little family um and so do you wanted to push yourself out of that comfort zone exactly out of that comfort zone and and learn more about the world yeah yeah and and

31:33Tessa: then from Dubai you came to LA yeah so from Dubai how did that happen um so Freedom you know our director at freedom natalia um also used to work at premier model management right and uh we have a mutual friend who knew that i wanted to leave dubai and thought that natalia and i would get along very very well which we do um and introduced us and it it took it it took a while it wasn't you know i think we started talking probably a year before i moved it took some time um but honestly I think at my career at the moment, Freedom is exactly where I want to be. Sure. And let's talk about the agency.

32:14Tessa: So it was founded in 2014 by Maya Holmes, began as a female-driven, black-owned agency in LA. What kind of first drew you? I have to say, speaking, you know, having started those conversations with Natalia, what I love about Freedom is that we are very different to a lot of modelling agencies. And, you know, kindness is really the core of our agency and of our business. We are very kind to each other, which doesn't necessarily happen in many modeling agencies. We are very kind to the models. We are very transparent. We're very honest. And that was something that I feel that lacks in the industry.

33:00And it's something that we really champion as an agency. And that's something that I really wanted in my life. I really wanted to be somewhere that was kind, where we trusted each other and where we are given the space and the time to truly flourish at what we do for a living. And I really do believe that freedom has allowed every single person that works at the agency, freedom truly gives us that autonomy and that space to be able to excel at what we do.

33:35Tessa: so how did you go about getting presumably you didn't have a work visa at that point yeah I think you might have a couple of funny stories about getting this so you know as I said to you when I first came to LA I was always like I want to get here one day but I don't know how that's going to happen um to get a work permit in the states there are different ways of doing it of course, but there is one visa called the O1, which most talent, most agents usually get. But to get that, you need to have done, you need to have shown that you are known in the industry, but not only that, you need to have shown that you've done something, right?

34:14So that was always in the back of my mind that, you know, I might need to do something someday just to be able to get that visa, you know, if I ever want, if I ever end up moving. So in 2021, I was offered a chance to become I was offered a chance to become a judge on Greece's next top model which was um

34:32Tessa: interesting to say the least and how did that invitation come about because you weren't living in Greece no not at all um I have to say it came about through a great client of mine called Harris Harris um is one of the leading PRs of hospitality PRs in Greece um and he looks after some amazing resorts and venues and restaurants and we we started working together in 2018 I think 2018 2019 on you know talent it was a time where talent wanted to start creating content organically for their page you know and in the summer talent would want to go somewhere to create content interesting content work with swim brands you know all sorts of things so him and I started working together on that then and over the years you know he he's very plugged in in greece um and then you know he came to me with this opportunity for elite um and i was like this is great i didn't necessarily want to be the one as who was the judge but no one else could go because it was just before fashion week so they were alex you kind of need to go because no everyone else has to book shows.

35:40So off I went to Athens, which was very interesting and very outside my comfort zone. Yeah. Especially, you know, as I've progressed in my career in model management, I've learned to open my eye and widen the type of talent that I can see as potential models. I feel that when I first started, I was very tunnel vision, purely because it's also the type of models I grew up seeing you know you know Kate Moss you know Naomi I was very much like models should look a certain way whatever and you know working at Premiere working Elite I started to open my mind a bit more and more and more and that experience at Greece like showed me a lot you know that models truly do come in all different ships and sizes but this whole narrative of you know 88 on the hip or whatever like that doesn't need to exist anymore and that's something that at freedom for example we we we don't you know we don't care you know you can be 5 '2 and still yeah earn a lot of money you know and do very well and brands would really love you and you don't need to be a size zero you know so that was one of the

36:47Tessa: things that got that went on your visa form yeah that um and yeah and i really do think it it helped me get the visa to the u.s

37:03Tessa: So you're now leading PR and brand partnerships here. What's the focus for you at the moment? So at the moment, we're developing more brand strategy for our current talent, as well as growing our roster of social media talent for the agency. We are quite particular about who we represent. It's very story-driven. We love talent that have something else. more you know whatever that may be you know we have a talent we have you know one talent for example who owns a puzzle company which is fantastic you know who would have thought you know it's so interesting we have other talent who are you know they are set designers as well as being models they are creative directors they're stylists it's a real multi-hyphenate exactly yeah um we love talent that have a different that have a story behind them you know it is taking time I'm growing the roster.

37:54But I'm a huge believer of slow and steady wins the race. We are slowly growing that side of the business. And we are up against some of the biggest agencies in the world, especially in LA. You have your WMEs, your CAAs, digital brand architects. And those are our competitors. We want to operate on that level with them. And the way that we work with our talent, especially when it comes to brand partnerships and PR, it's incredibly strategic. Every talent that we work with, we sit with them at the beginning of the year and we map out the year. We create this timeline with them, obviously. I'm not one to dictate.

38:32It's very much how do we work together on creating something.

38:36Tessa: That you're both fully bought into. Exactly. We create these roadmaps, these timelines. We create decks that then go to the talent that we refer to constantly. It's very, you know, sometimes it's very easy. you know a client that might not be right for that talent will come in and say i have a hundred thousand dollars for this and sometimes we have to say no and it's because it doesn't fit with our with our roadmap and it's very hard for everyone it's about the quick wins yeah um and it's very hard for everyone for certain for the talent for the talent you know it's hard for the talent it's for us it's hard to be able to say no to certain things but our strategy is long term our strategy is you know it's the minute we think you know one year ahead at the minimum and not only that as i said earlier like freedom is you know transparency and honesty is so embedded in our like working culture that you know i truly believe that because we are so honest and transparent with the talent it's easier to have these conversations of okay this has come in but I don't think it's quite right because it might deviate from yeah yeah and you know and also I'm very much open I'm like tell me what do you think um and the time well I think this I perhaps we should do this or why don't we find a middle ground you know why don't we go to the client and come up with a different solution or a different plan and that's what I really love about working with our talent at freedom is that we really do give them space to be able to go, okay, fine, they've come in with this, but let's tweak it.

40:11Let's make it more authentic to you. How should we do this? And that kind of collaborative energy with talent is what I truly believe is what sets us apart and is one of the reasons why we have many people knocking at our door asking to be represented.

40:32Tessa: Do you think being independent rather than part of a massive corporate network, as you were with Elite, that must change the way you work with talents and brands? Do you prefer the sort of smaller, the pros and cons of both? There are pros and cons of both. But what I love about freedom at the moment, and, you know, we're not, it takes decades to turn into some sort of giant network, you know. what I love about the way we operate now is that we can be we can be very agile you know if we if someone in the team anyone comes up with an idea we can bounce around we can talk about it all together as a team we can add you know take things away like flesh things out and then very quickly we can start implementing that yeah which um at Elite it was very very hard to to do things to To make any big changes or decisions.

41:25To make any big changes happen and big decisions happen. You know, there was a huge layer of process that everyone had to go through. Whereas at Freedom, it's not. I think Natalia, who now runs the agencies, is very open to ideas. And also very open to trying the idea. Right now, my career and what I want to do, being in an independent, is perfect.

41:59Tessa: How do you decide which models or campaigns are right for freedom? Is it like a gut instinct? Is it something specific? It's interesting. I would say that every agency decides on who they take on very differently. But it really is gut instinct. It's very, you know, does this person align with who we are? Do they have a very strong work ethic? um you know are they willing to are they willing to take on board advice are they willing to try different things you know um you know it's something like any agency sometimes you think someone's going to do really well and actually they don't take off and other times someone you're maybe not 100 sure comes in and and just does brilliantly exactly yeah and that's something that um that's also something that i've learned i've learned as well to reconcile with myself You know, there have been talent that I have been obsessed with and I'm like, we're going to make this happen.

42:56And it doesn't work out. And other times I don't think it was going to work, but I want to try anyway. And it works really well. And I wish there was like a method to the madness. But there truly isn't.

43:10Tessa: What do you think the biggest misconception is that people have about the modeling and talent industry? Well, I just, you know, my parents think that I party for a living. You know, I think that's like. Do you? No, well maybe when my 20s, not so much anymore. You know, there is that misconception that it's frivolous. Yeah. And that it's full of people who are not intelligent, you know. And that's truly not the case, you know. It's some of the most hardworking people I've ever met, like in any different, have been people in fashion and the niche of talent management. You can't necessarily switch off in this job.

43:47You know, you're dealing with clients across every single time zone imaginable, half the time. You are dealing with talent who are working, you know, might be working in a different city where you are and something might happen to them. And, you know, obviously we are there to protect them. We, you know, a talent can call, you know, for example, any of the talent of freedom, like they can call any of us and we pick up the phone and we guide them and we do what we need to do. It's part of our job. I think people forget that. I think people outside of the industry don't realise that. And they think it's just, you know, champagne and, you know, canapes at fancy schmancy events.

44:25And don't get me wrong, yes, that does exist. And yes, it's very fun. But it's also, there's also a lot of hard work behind, you know.

44:34Tessa: And are your parents still dreaming of Alex the Diplomat? Yes, they are. They are. Very much so. But, you know, my brother works in finance, so at least they got one thing. Okay, so they can. But they must see that you're happy and earning well and doing brilliantly in your career. But no, yeah, definitely my family would have loved if I had actually ended up becoming a diplomat. And so now, how do you help models build a strong, distinctive personal brand? You know, obviously in a space where everyone's expected to be authentic but polished at the same time. So that's really interesting because exactly, people are expected to be authentic and polished.

45:12those two things don't necessarily coexist they can for some people but not for everyone myself and the team when we work with any talent on social media strategy and content strategy we really do focus on authenticity um even if for example the aesthetic might not be a personal taste of mine it's that it's the talent's taste it's what the talent love it's how they feel true to themselves and our job is not to judge that our job is to amplify that and help them shape that narrative and match them with brands that fit that narrative and we are very again we are very honest with ourselves and with the with our talent with social media a model is able to expand their power you know outside of the gatekeepers of fashion which is completely invaluable you know they they hold that they hold their power so much more than talent would do 15 years ago um you know they create their own community um they create their own fans they they engage with with with you know with their community and that's you know brands like that you know brands do you know brands like a captive audience and now you know everything they've done

46:30Tessa: like the whole story is there online isn't it whereas you know with with print and everything it was then it was printed and then it was gone and and also with print when it came to modeling modeling the model wasn't able to really express themselves yeah um well i mean obviously express themselves you know through the no but they were working much more to a brief given by a client or brand rather than rather than their own yeah exactly and that's something that is really really powerful yeah um and really has democratized fashion it's given power to a lot of women that wouldn't you know that before models were kept you know they were very much like yeah kept you know and now not then you know now they've got a voice they've got a voice and that voice is so important

47:25Tessa: when you're sizing up a potential brand collab what are the non-negotiables i have one hard you know like non-negotiable one non-negotiable is that if you're working with a talent you must let the talent create whatever you want whatever whatever they're creating in their own way yeah because otherwise I mean at the end of the day that's what their audience are buying into exactly if a brand comes in saying well we want you to create it like this that's not going to align with their audience which defeats the object of them then doing it 100 100 and that's something that it's it's interesting to educate brands on that yeah you know and you know when partnerships don't necessarily become super successful it's nine times out of ten because a brand really wants a certain thing on that talent's page that doesn't align with the rest of the talent's page and you know audiences are very plugged in yeah it's no longer you can't pull the wall over audiences like you could you know in the in the 90s or the early 2000s what are your rules here for saying it's an ad or um in america um so i'm in america you have to do hashtag ad right or the paid partnership tool yeah on instagram yeah um so it's very similar to to the uk and the eu and have you had any partnerships that didn't go to plan could you tell us any stories and about what those moments might have taught you yeah i mean i would love to say that everything always goes to plan that everyone's happy um all the time but it's about managing expectations it's hard because you have to have like awkward conversations you don't want to have but there have been times where things don't go to plan there was one time in particular when I was elite with a beauty brand where things really did not go to plan and it makes you question you as a talent manager like did I do it right did I was I clear enough to both sides was I you know maybe should I have answered that email five minutes quicker like it makes you question a lot but sometimes things just don't go to pass.

49:36And it's okay. And it teaches you stuff. And it teaches you stuff, exactly. Luckily, I mean, it really went...

49:44Tessa: Can you tell us a story of that? I mean, it just went so badly. You know, there was a shoot attached to it. The photographer didn't show up to the shoot. Then there was another shoot. Then the talent couldn't show up to the shoot. Just literally everything that could go wrong. Anything that could go wrong went wrong. All on one shot. Then it was, you know, the posting wasn't done correctly. and then another time the brand didn't give the correct assets. It was just, you know when something was truly cursed? Just want to make you really pleased to see the back of it. I was very pleased to see the back of it.

50:13Obviously, I'm not going to say who the talent was or who the client was. But, you know, when things happen like that, I always make a point and the team to, you know, take both parties out afterwards and go, okay, it didn't go to plan, which is fine. Let's discuss why. Let's discuss why and let's learn from it. And honestly, like when it's the talent, you know, 10 out of 10 times, even I'm to play, whatever, we move on, we learn and the mistake doesn't happen again. With clients, I'd say nine times out of 10, the client understands and then goes, OK, and then we end up working together. But there's always that one time where they never want to see you again and will never email you again.

50:55Yeah, yeah. You just, yeah. But that's with life, though. Yeah, absolutely.

51:03Tessa: What shifts do you see coming in the next few years, particularly in how models are positioned and marketed globally? It's interesting. I think about this all the time, and I never really know where it's going. I see things at the moment that I don't necessarily like. Curve model representation on the catwalk is going down instead of going up. Diverse faces is weirdly going down, not going up. There are some seasons where you're like, this doesn't feel very right. And then there are some seasons where it feels right. So it's tricky. There isn't necessarily a direction we're going in. I think that perhaps with this season, with all these new creative directors at all these different houses, I think that's where we're going to start seeing the beginnings of the next direction of fashion.

51:53I think at the moment we're in a bit of a doldrums situation. Business of Fashion actually released this really interesting graph about the power of Fashion Week in comparison to years gone by. And Paris has just taken ahead. Milan and London have gone down. And New York is slowly coming back up. So that's quite interesting. It's going to be quite interesting to see New York Fashion Week. Like, will it become a powerhouse again? That will be quite interesting.

52:23Tessa: Yeah, I mean, London's not even a week now. No, exactly. It's only two hours. Exactly. And the main draw is Burberry. Yeah. there isn't you know and it and it's a shame because all these amazing and incredible houses and designers galliano and mcqueen like they all came from london yeah i know it's so sad and and then when they you know the big designers that are there they're putting them all on one day so of course the new york agencies aren't letting the models fly in for it because there's no point exactly and it's kind of chicken and egg scenario in that aspect you know the amount of conversations i've had with the british fashion council when i lived in london yeah you know they were like how do we get models to come here and i was like it's hard because they need to listen to the agencies i mean you've got you know my first episode with carol at premiere she was saying we're trying to talk to them and and they're just not listening they're just not doing what we're suggesting um and and it's hard because and i and i i do get where the british fashion fashion council are also coming from you know it's a government entity there's a certain amount of funding you know you can't just you know magically start giving people tens of thousands of dollars to fly you know and they're also stuck in a in a difficult situation as well you know um i do think that i do think it will come back to being that amazing hotbed of creativity because london's just always been so cool it's got such its own um you know look and feel and you know that isn't anywhere in the world and i think it's a shame that yeah it is um but that's why i think we're in that doldrum situation at the moment in in in fashion especially in london fashion week um but i do i'm very you know i'm convinced it's going to go back to what it was and it will i think also you know britain at the moment it's a little difficult in the uk and fashion reflects society what's how society is feeling uh but i'm incredibly excited for next season to start see and i really feel that all these changes are going to be the birth of something quite interesting and new

54:23Tessa: How are you using AI at Freedom? This industry, it's based on human interaction. This industry is based on human relationships, spending time with people. But I do feel that instead of using AI to kind of replicate human beings, we should be using it to streamline our processes. So there is a really interesting company that I had a really interesting meeting with them. And essentially, they use AI algorithms to match brands to talent. And they use these algorithms to match brands, basically to tell brands how they should be spending their money in the digital marketing world. So through Facebook ads or Instagram ads or TikTok ads or just general online programmatic ads or things like that.

55:13And that is incredibly interesting because it's collating so many data points. so quickly and being able to, and if you're a brand, being able to be given that very niche and strategic viewpoint of...

55:29Tessa: Absolutely, that's just very data-driven. Very data-driven. It's amazing. Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's like focus groups on steroids, basically. And that's super interesting.

55:42Tessa: What advice would you give a young model coming into the industry now? You have to care about fashion. And you have to care about your fashion and your style. I'm not saying you need to start learning, you know, the history of fashion and the history of, I'm not saying that. But the people that I've seen that do very well in this industry very quickly truly care about fashion and truly are interested. And they're invested and they want to know why. Why is this jumper made like this? You know, why are we shooting it like this? Like, why are we not shooting it like this? Or, you know, and that curiosity.

56:22Because people in the industry love to talk about the industry. they love to talk about why they've made this dress or why they've made this or why we're doing something like this or why we're doing something like that. Because that's why we do this. We do this because we're all very curious and hardworking people. And I feel that the people that think they'll come into the industry and don't necessarily care about clothes. Just to be shallow, don't really want to understand the backstory of things. Exactly. It never really works for them. And you can see with these titans titans and icons of industry you know like a kate martin can they owe me like they truly care about fashion and always have you know and it's about their personal style and what they love you know and that i think is the most important thing for anyone not just a model entering the industry but anyone entering the industry so i'm just going to do a few little quickfire questions to end fashion show you drop everything to attend um anything sunaround anything one brand you think is nailing it on social at the moment the row purely because they are doing everything that

57:33Tessa: you're not supposed to do and it works a brand or talent you'd love to work with next oh that's such a tricky one because i truly love all the talent i work with but i know they won't be upset when i say paris hilton the original the original if you weren't doing this what would you be doing instead? I would be in the basement of the V &A Museum running their fashion archive. Yeah, that sounds cool. Yeah, that sounds quite cool. Alex, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. To find out more, head over to freedommodels.com or follow them on Instagram. If you've enjoyed this conversation, make sure you're following the show and we'll be back next week with more stories from behind the scenes of the fashion and creative industries.

58:20Thank you.