Marcus Flemmings | Is the Creative Industry as Inclusive as It Thinks It Is?

0:02Tessa Dewing: Welcome to the Business of Modelling, where we go behind the scenes of the modelling and talent industries to explore how they really work. From agents and casting directors to photographers, creatives, brands and the talent themselves, we'll uncover the stories, challenges and changes shaping the industry today. when people think about modeling they often think about the finished image the campaign the magazine cover the person in front of the camera or walking down the runway but behind every booking is a whole industry of people decisions and opportunities that most people never see whether you're looking to start your career whether you're already working in the industry or curious about what happens behind the images you see every day, this is your guide to the business behind modelling.

1:01Tessa Dewing: I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of London Commercial Agency, Sandra Reynolds. And today I'm joined by Marcus Flemings, founder of the Diversity Agency and Allied Artists. Marcus has spent much of his career challenging traditional ideas around representation and creating opportunities for talent who have historically been overlooked. In this episode, we talk about the evolution from BAME Models to the Diversity Agency, how the language around diversity has changed, what authentic representation looks like now, and how modelling, acting and personal brand are becoming increasingly interconnected.

1:41Tessa Dewing: We also look at some of the biggest conversations affecting the industry right now. Marcus, welcome to the podcast.

1:49Marcus Flemmings: Welcome.

1:49Tessa Dewing: It's so lovely to have you here. I'm excited to talk to you.

1:52Marcus Flemmings: Nice to talk to you too.

1:53Tessa Dewing: Can you start by telling us about your journey into the creative industries? Sure. You know, what did your world look like growing up? Where did you grow up?

2:01Marcus Flemmings: I grew up in a little place called Harlston, which is northwest London. And then my family moved to Kenton, which is also kind of northwest London Harrow kind of area. I actually wanted to be a filmmaker.

2:13Tessa Dewing: Right.

2:14Marcus Flemmings: Then I got into finance.

2:15Tessa Dewing: So filmmaking was your passion then? That was always my passion.

2:18Marcus Flemmings: So I wanted, I think, like all most young boys, you want to be a footballer or something. I can't say I ever wanted to really be a footballer, but, you know, if I had the chance, I would have jumped on top of it.

2:30Tessa Dewing: Did you like keepy-uppies and stuff?

2:31Marcus Flemmings: I did a bit more than keepy-uppies. But I just, you know, when you're at primary school, you're like the best player ever. And then when you get to high school, you're like, I'm actually kind of average. So I kind of got leveled out.

2:43Tessa Dewing: And you get to college and you're like, now I'm shit. Yeah, I'm absolutely dreadful.

2:47Marcus Flemmings: So I should probably stop and find a real career. So then I wanted to be a filmmaker. I watched The Godfather one day when I was 16. And I was like, I want to make films. I really followed that path. I went to college, studied media studies. And then I fell in love with my first girlfriend. I was like, I need to have a proper job. So let me go into a proper job. This filmmaking stuff is just not going to make me any money. So did finance for six years.

3:11Tessa Dewing: That's come in useful then, running a business. It has.

3:14Marcus Flemmings: I learned a lot. Then I was like, I should probably get back onto the career path I wanted to get onto being a filmmaker. So I started my own company. It's a very small company. Like it was kind of similar to Star Now and to at the time, back in the day, it was called Casting Core Pro. I don't know if you remember Casting Core Pro. Yeah, so it's a very similar company to that. And then by chance, I wanted to use an image on my website that belonged to a photographer who worked for Aegeana, the Indian South Asian magazine and he was very well connected and he was like do you know any South Asian models that I can shoot with and I was like actually this is literally within six months of me starting my company I was like actually I don't know any but that's because there's no South Asian specific company so I thought let me branch out and see if I can start a South Asian agency

4:02Tessa Dewing: and I did okay so this was the the start so this was when back this is 2007 2008 right okay okay So this was way before BAME. This was way before BAME.

4:12Marcus Flemmings: Okay. Yeah. So I did that. I decided I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm going to kind of branch out and go into something a bit more substantive.

4:20Tessa Dewing: And that's when I started BAME back in 2016.

4:23Marcus Flemmings: But yeah, I started doing photography just before I started BAME. And I felt to me that was going to be my career path. Like photography, I was going to do fashion photography, become a fashion photographer.

4:34Tessa Dewing: You pretty much self-taught for all of that.

4:36Marcus Flemmings: Not really. I didn't train as a filmmaker. That's the thing. I went to college, but I didn't actually train in filmmaking. I didn't train in photography. I taught myself. I spent hours, so many hours, like midnight, 2 a.m., 3 a.m., just working on Photoshop and just getting better at Photoshop, learning how to use my camera.

4:52Tessa Dewing: Did you come straight in with digital photography? You're too young. You're too young for the old Polaroids and stuff.

4:58Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, I'm a bit too young for the Polaroids and the old wind-up cameras. But, yeah, it was a digital camera and done loads of really bad photo shoots initially. And what did you shoot?

5:09Tessa Dewing: Was it models at that point? Fashion stuff.

5:11Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, because it was like fashion stuff because at that point I'd just started the South Asian agency and had people I could shoot with. I had friends who were models. I knew photographers as well because I was networking at that point as well. So it was a nice moment to do something different that I didn't think I'd ever do, to be honest with you. yeah um after a while became pretty pretty good at it and i started shooting for magazines um and i thought this was going to be my career path and i thought i'm going to move to paris and i'm going to be um this you know this british photographer in paris living this luscious life

5:46Tessa Dewing: shooting fashion campaigns what kind of jobs were you doing i actually became creative director for a magazine called lush in 2008 and then after that i got to shoot for magazine asian woman

5:58Marcus Flemmings: I was there photographer for about two editions and then I worked for another South Asian magazine called Vanity for about three issues as well and then I had loads of freelance clients as well but I just got tired of London and I thought I want to move to Paris

6:14Tessa Dewing: What are some of the biggest challenges like establishing yourself creatively?

6:19Marcus Flemmings: The main thing you need to do when you first try and establish yourself as a freelancer is work your butt off and don't be disheartened by no's because you're going to receive so many no's. Everyone's going to say no. You're going to maybe speak to 10 people. One person will say yes. And it may not be the person you want. And that's normal. That's life. But in this industry, especially, whether you're a model or photographer, get used to hearing no because that's what you're going to hear all the time.

6:45Tessa Dewing: You have to have a thick skin.

6:46Marcus Flemmings: You have to have a thick skin. It's almost like a delusional way of thinking that you are going to be successful because otherwise you will just crumble under the pressure.

6:55Tessa Dewing: Yeah, you've got to have that goal.

6:57Marcus Flemmings: and yeah stick to it yeah stick to it and just be really passionate about it and try and make sure

7:02Tessa Dewing: that you don't give up people sort of say what do you need to succeed do you need is it the talent is it that you know it's kind of a bit of everything isn't it it's a bit you obviously have to have the talent but you you know you can be in the right place at the right time you can sort of meet the right person you can go on a job and get recommended through that yeah you could

7:22Marcus Flemmings: And I think as well, I think more than anything, I think people don't realize this, is that you need to be hardworking. Yeah. You can be the most stunning model in the world, most handsome model in the world, most talented. But that doesn't guarantee success at all. You need to have, like you said, it's kind of everything.

7:41Tessa Dewing: The industry is so saturated now, isn't it? Absolutely.

7:44Marcus Flemmings: The market in that sense is kind of, you know, level playing field. But then the thing that makes you special is just going the extra mile, you know, waking up earlier than everyone else and putting the time in. Being more helpful. Being more helpful, learning, growing, listening and rolling with the punches, basically.

8:02Tessa Dewing: Yeah.

8:03Marcus Flemmings: Yeah.

8:03Tessa Dewing: And now you work across several sides of the industry. So obviously your filmmaking has come back in quite strongly, hasn't it? But how do you see yourself primarily?

8:12Marcus Flemmings: I see myself as definitely one thing. I think most people see me as something else. I see myself as a filmmaker. I like to see myself as a filmmaker. I'm also a YouTuber as well but I think ultimately most people would see me as an agent

8:24Tessa Dewing: What do you do on YouTube?

8:26Marcus Flemmings: I talk about film so I do essays, video essays about film I love it and it's really fun it's a departure from what I do in the day job which is what you do in the day job as well which is fun as well but it's a very different it's more like a relief from the day job because the day job can be kind of stressful as you know

8:46Tessa Dewing: Very stressful Very stressful

8:51Tessa Dewing: in 2016 was when you founded bame so your agency before that what was that that was called tmp

8:58Marcus Flemmings: right and i shut that down yeah and started bame okay so then what changed with bame i would say it became easier because we were representing models of all different ethnicities different

9:10Tessa Dewing: ages and that was a conscious decision was a big decision go from i think i felt like i learned a

9:16Marcus Flemmings: lot from TMP and made loads of mistakes you know when you start a company you make loads of mistakes and I think I took the mistakes away from the next project and kind of built with that but that's a new challenge because when I first started BEM I didn't realize how big it was going to become and it moved so quickly and I started with literally like a thousand pounds it was I started with nothing but thankfully I had the contacts from TMP so I was like kind of merging those two things together and it kind of took off really quickly and then you realize your business grows from nothing to something and it gets to a point where you have to scale up but at the same time you haven't got the money to scale up so you're kind of like balancing things um it's very interesting it was a very interesting journey but i feel like human beings in general kind of around that point were kind of becoming more more more open to being diverse in their campaigns and before that it definitely wasn't the case the term bame as you probably know the government used they thought of this term I think 2011 or something yes yeah it was really commonly used

10:18Tessa Dewing: wasn't it at one point so I remember thinking of you when it suddenly wasn't a term yes they wanted to use and I thought oh god if I had a business with that name now I thought of you at that time

10:29Marcus Flemmings: thinking what are they going to do I I didn't like the term in the first place which is why I started the company okay and I kind of used the term against itself and that's why we didn't just have models who were my black asian minority ethnic we had models who were caucasian um who had disabilities who were non-binary it was the idea to kind of obliterate that term and the idea was to always if when the government stopped using that term to change the company name which is why when they changed it i think in 2022 23 i was like oh damn i have to actually keep to what I initially said and that I was it was really liberating to do that but also as you probably know as a business owner just imagine if you change your company name from Sandra Reynolds to suddenly Joe Bloggs yeah that would be a massive absolutely mistake not advisable so it's been um it's been a challenging time since we changed our name you were very well established at that point

11:25Tessa Dewing: yeah so a diversity agency is probably a lot more as you always were then it's a better name it's a more apt name it did affect you it was a tricky time did it did you change your website change

11:35Marcus Flemmings: your domain yeah um and people who type in bame suddenly can't go they're like oh where's bame yeah you change your your your social media um and then your clients are like oh where's where's

11:44Tessa Dewing: beng on so it's just confusing for everybody it's very confusing i thought it'd be really

11:49Marcus Flemmings: liberating and amazing and the best business move ever but um it was real challenge at the time

11:53Tessa Dewing: yeah he was sort of deliberately yes being having that

12:01Marcus Flemmings: yeah yeah yeah for sure i was purposely using the name against itself okay um i just thought it's such a it's such a terrible term it's that you're kind of grouping people together it doesn't really mean anything like minority ethnic that meant that someone from croatia who came to the UK was part of it just meant nothing. We're trying to kind of make everyone feel individual and you're kind of gripping them together.

12:26Tessa Dewing: Yeah, but also the reason that the government decided to stop that out was because they were saying it was too broad whereas, and I guess the diversity agency then is even broader isn't it? It's even more of an umbrella term so do you think the same thing could

12:42Marcus Flemmings: happen again? With the word diversity?

12:44Tessa Dewing: Yeah, I don't know.

12:46Marcus Flemmings: I hope so. I hope so.

12:47Tessa Dewing: Oh, do you? Yeah, I hope so. Bring it on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:49Marcus Flemmings: Because I really hope that, it sounds so corny, but I hope that we don't have to put people into groups and say, this person is diverse. Yeah, yeah. This person is BAME or this person is whatever. Exactly. It sounds very, you know, hands across America, everyone loves each other, but it'd be nice if we just didn't have this crap because it's not beneficial to anyone.

13:10Tessa Dewing: From a casting point of view, you get a brief through. Can you tell whether a brand or a casting director understands inclusive casting. Give me some nice examples. You've got to get my company cancelled. Yeah.

13:23Marcus Flemmings: I think when we first started BAME, 100 % not. They were using terms that were definitely outdated. I think even now they use terms like African-American. That doesn't mean black. That means an African-American. So they say we're casting an African-American male, but what they really mean is a black male. Because if you're African-American, then you're American. I think it's much better now for sure and why that is I don't know I think maybe just terms are more commonly used and people were told off from the past so now they do the right thing maybe the next generation of younger people will come up and use the proper terms where do you think we've made real progress um I think round about two three years ago there was I would say we're getting to a really good place I think things have kind of tailed off a little bit just because like I said I think the industry is dictated by what happens outside of the industry and we're in quite a divisive time so I still see briefs coming through that are diverse I see a lot of them but it was definitely a lot more you know round about 20 COVID 2020 2021 2022 is like peak like there's a lot more push for diverse people yeah from the camera from my experience I think

14:36Tessa Dewing: generally commercial advertising is much more representative than fashion i think yeah why do you think that is we sort of see you know the catwalks will suddenly everyone will be like oh great they had a great fashion week we saw different sizes we saw different you know different types of people on the catwalk and then it seems to have gone backwards again yes why do i think that is

14:59Marcus Flemmings: um oh it's a great question so i was i was fortunate or unfortunate enough to be part of the British Fashion Council's roundtable meeting back in 2009. Had all the massive agencies there like Storm and so forth. And they basically said, and maybe you've spoken to people at those agencies as well, they basically said that they have to cater to what the designers want. And apparently the designers want what sells and they think what sells is more Caucasian, size two.

15:28Tessa Dewing: Ultimately, we need to supply what our clients want, don't we? Yeah. I kind of get that. But yeah, and if sample sizes are that size and their clients.

15:39Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, I get it. It's tricky, isn't it? It's tricky. So I think we've gone back to that. I do think it's a societal thing. I think we had the whole cancel culture thing at the Me Too movement. You had COVID where we had the George Floyd incident. So there's a lot of things in one go. And I think what happened was people who were maybe more right wing thinking have kind of pushed things the other way. and I think it's now okay to do like size two modeling.

16:08Tessa Dewing: Do you understand it because that's not who buys their clothes? Not at all. I don't get it.

16:13Marcus Flemmings: I don't get it either. I think it's quite outdated. It's very non-inclusive and it doesn't make any sense because if you look at most people that buy their clothes, they're of all different sizes, shades, all sorts. So it doesn't make sense to me, but I think what you said was quite prevalent, which is if they believe that that's what sells, then as an agency, like a big agency, a fashion agency.

16:39Tessa Dewing: Yeah, then they've got to supply that, haven't they?

16:41Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, I'd say so. Yeah, I think they have to if they want to stay in business.

16:46Tessa Dewing: I've heard from a lot of them, you know, they've taken on, you know, gorgeous people that, you know, have sort of started to work and do amazing things. And then all of a sudden, they're now not working again.

16:57Marcus Flemmings: And so I think you probably know this better than anyone else. So round about COVID time when fashion agencies were struggling, and I'm sure you were okay at that point. I was okay because we were doing commercial work. A lot of those agencies took on loads of commercial models. And I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm sure they've got rid of those commercial models because I think they've gone back to the fashion side of things. It's business, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. You have to kind of roll with the punches.

17:26Tessa Dewing: What made you decide in 2022, two which would have been six years after you started bame um that the time was right to start

17:34Marcus Flemmings: allied artists oh obviously i'm involved in film so that's actually my number one passion so i always wanted to have a company that focused on film from an acting standpoint and we used to do it through um bame and i thought why not just kind of cipher out and start a proper acting company so it was really just splitting yeah just so that because bame was so synonymous with commercial work yeah so when we put people forward they'd be like oh uh that's a commercial yeah so i thought let's just start a completely different company and try and work that way it's another business decision that uh was uh difficult because when you get you're starting a completely new company

18:15Tessa Dewing: and if you're yeah so you didn't you decided to start under a completely different name rather

18:20Marcus Flemmings: than just bame actors or there you go which probably wasn't the best thing to do um and then And yeah, you have to start all over again. You have to get your clients again. You have to get on Spotlight all over again. And then when you're trying to run the commercial company as well.

18:33Tessa Dewing: Yeah, but then I think it's good because I look at your websites and they're very different. Your allied artists is absolutely an acting feel, whereas your BAME is more commercial.

18:43Marcus Flemmings: There's lots of agencies that try to split them within the same branding

18:48Tessa Dewing: and maybe it's better to do what you've done.

18:51Marcus Flemmings: I think ultimately it's better. I think we're now in a good place, but initially it wasn't better. It took a long time to get it off the ground. Yeah, massive, massive struggle. But yeah, I think it just comes down to kind of just persistence. If you keep persistent with some things, it works out. Sometimes you have to kind of cut your losses and be like, actually, this is not working. Let me do something else.

19:13Tessa Dewing: I think that's important when you're in business because it's very easy to be passionate about something.

19:17Marcus Flemmings: And keep going.

19:17Tessa Dewing: And actually keep going. I don't care if people are sort of saying to me, this isn't going to work. I think it is. But yeah, there comes a point where. Next thing you know, you're bankrupt.

19:24Marcus Flemmings: Yeah. yeah yeah there's been times when i'm like shall i just stop doing this um but thankfully i've continued with it there's been business things that i've started within bame especially within

19:37Tessa Dewing: bame had like a creative agency within bame okay and i tried to get that off the ground and i just couldn't i was like nope need to stop and then we had the podcast which was really cool because we

19:47Marcus Flemmings: got to talk with our models talk with people in the industry and stuff but i think after a year I was like, let's just stop. Sometimes you have to know when to just stop.

20:00Tessa Dewing: When you meet new models or a new actor or new talent, what makes someone stand out to you other than their look?

20:09Marcus Flemmings: Typically, I always go for personality overlook. I would rather sign a model with enthusiasm, good energy, than deal with a model who looks really good, but it's an absolute pain in the ass to work with. so that's always my number one factor ultimately when i wake up in the morning my job is to get people work yeah and it's not because i want to be rich it's because i actually enjoy doing it yeah and when people are like putting it's a hard enough industry as it is why would you then put a brick wall in front of yourself so we can't help you it's all about trying to help people yeah

20:40Tessa Dewing: you've spoken about you know attitude and ambition and mindset being just as important as looks um And I think that's probably definitely become more important now, hasn't it? I think people want to work with nice people. And, you know, as an agent, you want someone that's hardworking. You don't want someone that, you know, the minute you take them on, they think, oh, I just need to sit down and wait for the phone to ring at home. You know, it's people that are out there working for themselves as well, working with you. Totally.

21:08Marcus Flemmings: And it's also like if they're going to be like that to you and you work with them, you're cautious about giving them to a client. Because you don't know how they're going to behave with a client. And yeah, we're just in a time, like we said, where the market is oversaturated with good people. Why would we keep persisting with someone who's being rude when we can easily just work with someone else who's going to be nicer? Maybe not look as good, but nicer. And you can wake up in the morning and have a conversation with them and be like, oh, my day's not ruined now. Absolutely.

21:43Tessa Dewing: Because it's just ruined your day.

21:44Marcus Flemmings: like if you're having a great day and then suddenly you're having a conversation that isn't pleasant then it's like oh that's ruined my day it's ruined my hot chocolate it's ruined my cup of tea and my biscuit it's like it doesn't need to happen it's just such a

22:01Tessa Dewing: unnecessary no because we're all working for the same thing at the end of the day yeah totally

22:05Marcus Flemmings: and it's again it's like it's a tough industry yeah why give yourself a hurdle to jump over with like dealing with your agency.

22:12Tessa Dewing: Some people think you work for them. They've kind of got that attitude. You know, you work for me. It's like, actually, it's a partnership. Neither of us work for each other. It's a partnership. It's a, you know, professional relationship. And, you know, obviously you speak to them a lot. But yeah, I think sometimes that's the problem.

22:29Marcus Flemmings: I think they think we work for them. And I get it. They are the star. Yeah. It's like, you know, if we were dealing with Tom Cruise, it's probably a dated name, but if we're dealing with you know Tom Cruise we'd be working for him yeah that's fine that's

22:48it's not Janet from Barking is it you're absolutely right but I think their mindset is

22:55Marcus Flemmings: we are Tom Cruise yeah yeah yeah and in their head they're right you know and yeah I think we have to live with that so I get it I do get it they are the talent and we're just the lowly scums who don't get driven to the chutes and flown abroad and so forth. So I get it. But like you said, they're not Tom Cruise.

23:15Tessa Dewing: This episode is brought to you by Digital Twinsets. As we talk about the future of our industry, one of the biggest conversations right now is AI.

23:30Tessa Dewing: Digital Twinsets is a worldwide casting platform created to help brands embrace new technologies while protecting the people behind the images. Working with real agency-represented talent, Digital Twinsets creates approved digital asset packs that give brands flexibility while keeping consent, control and transparency at the centre. Learn more at digitaltwinsets.com. What do you think that young models might misunderstand about building a sustainable career, like someone coming into the industry, you know maybe 16 17 years old i personally do think that's too young to to get in the industry

24:10Marcus Flemmings: we people we sign people who are like 18 um but it happens and i think without sounding repetitive i do think it's just about learning and growing at that age with anything not just modeling i think you just need to kind of look around and yeah find someone who's maybe in the same agency as you who you look up to and hopefully they're going to be nice to you and ask them questions and learn about the industry and learn about the industry it's not about i say that about anyone not just 16 year like if you're 55 and just come to the industry like those first few months are learning and i say to everyone like do not think your currency in the first few months is learning yeah getting pictures that's testing testing just worry about that yeah everything else is not relevant money is not relevant if you make money amazing but it's not your currency your currency is learning so i'd say the same thing the same things to a 16 year old i would think people come in though

25:02Tessa Dewing: don't they sometimes and think oh they're going to start working straight away you know like it's a normal job you know we have some people call up going oh yeah so um i'm available tuesdays and thursdays or something it's like oh okay it doesn't quite work like that

25:18Marcus Flemmings: i think okay honestly speaking if i went when i didn't know about the industry i would think the same thing but it's not like that it's like we don't we can't control when the booking happens

25:28Tessa Dewing: you just need to be available all days and it's last minute as well isn't it and you've got to

25:32Marcus Flemmings: be available for self-taping yeah so that's a bit of a bugbear of mine because i don't know why they choose people so last minute i don't think they need to do that and the other thing i've got is

25:42Tessa Dewing: my bugbear is when they say oh the bsf and usage if featured it's like yeah no do you know what they're not going to go for three five hundred quid they're going to go if you pay them the

25:53Marcus Flemmings: proper fee percent if featured like yeah and they try to do that now so we don't do that so we always

25:59Tessa Dewing: put it in our contract that is the fee you know that is that is the fee when you go and then they'll come back going oh you need to take the usage off the invoice because they might not be featured and we're like that's not our problem like you've confirmed this with the usage fee

26:13Marcus Flemmings: it doesn't you know i love that because that annoys me it's like you can't you know book someone and

26:19Tessa Dewing: then they don't know if they're featured or they're gonna you know book an extra in that case

26:22Marcus Flemmings: but a sporting artist honestly it's it's a bit of an outdated thing that doesn't need to happen and I wasn't in the industry. I'm not going to ask how old you are, but how old you are. Really old.

26:32Tessa Dewing: Really, really old.

26:34Marcus Flemmings: When I first got in the industry, I was talking to people who win it and they were saying like, buyout fees used to be 100 ,000. Like, that's completely gone. But the companies are still making their money. So something's not quite right,

26:45Tessa Dewing: I'd say.

26:46Marcus Flemmings: So I'm loving that you're doing that.

26:48Tessa Dewing: They used to use it for such a much longer amount of time because now they have so much content, don't they? They need to have so much content all the time. Yeah, it could be TV and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

26:59Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, I get that. I get that. No, yeah, the fees have definitely gameted. Yes, they have.

27:06Tessa Dewing: But I think that comes with the market being more saturated as well. You know, you've always got that thing that if, you know, it's that balance, isn't it? It's that line as an agency between what do you accept? You're trying to get the highest fee for your model, but then they're going to go somewhere else and someone else is going to do it if you don't agree. Yes, it's a massive problem. It's a massive problem.

27:27Marcus Flemmings: It's like the market's saturated with models, but also with agencies, with mother agencies, which I don't understand. I wish I was a mother agent because that seems like the easiest job in the world.

27:36Tessa Dewing: Well, a mother agency used to be your agency in that territory. So they would be getting you work in that territory, in that city. Now anyone can be a mother agency. Yes. They're not an agency. They're a scout on there, I guess.

27:49Marcus Flemmings: It's a scout, I guess. But yeah, I mean, I'm the wrong business. if you can push a model to another agency sit home and chill out whilst they go and do the work

27:59Tessa Dewing: the mother agency should be the one that's nurturing their career and doing all the work for them it's a manager, it's basically a manager

28:06Marcus Flemmings: yeah it's just an industry that's overstretched with too many things I guess yeah but I don't know if you're back to a massive brand, X brand, whatever you want to say if you're making billions per year if you can't pay a model £4 ,000 or whatever then

28:22Tessa Dewing: something's missing from the loop yeah absolutely yeah yeah yeah and also i think it's important that they understand the business side of it when they come into the industry i think with the you know the finance and the usage terms and you know all of that kind of thing i think you know again i think historically i think agencies are so much better now but i think that all used to be like models weren't expected to understand that they'd be you know they didn't need to understand that sort of thing but i think you know it's about you're building a brand aren't you now you are a brand and you need to understand how to run your own business absolutely and you're ultimately

28:57Marcus Flemmings: a freelancer if i was a freelance bricklayer i would need to know how to do taxes and know what the rules are and so forth it is literally you are a business and i think a lot of models like you said i think it's honestly speaking i think it's down to us as agencies to kind of help them i know it's not always easy because we've got so many other things to do but it would be nice if there was a place where they can go to and learn about that kind of thing.

29:23Tessa Dewing: I think we should get together as a group of agencies and you could set up like a training courses for them and things, couldn't you, if we all did it together. At the end of the day we're all working for the same thing and then they could do little, I don't know, webinars. They can all do it rather than us having to do it each one separately. We could all do it as a group. And in our group, we could go out and have jollies, couldn't we? We could have like parties.

29:49Marcus Flemmings: I think we should be kind of classy though, because we are the eldest. Yeah, we'll have classy parties. Crumpets and so forth. That's what we should do. Because the models can go out and have parties.

29:59Tessa Dewing: They can have parties and the agents can sit like the parents in the other room, like looking through a glass. Dancing really badly. I like it. This is a great organisation.

30:18Tessa Dewing: When you were 17, you started your filmmaking. I understand that you were sending scripts to major LA studios.

30:25Marcus Flemmings: Oh, wow. How did you do that? Good research. I like that. Good research. I'm good at my research.

30:28Tessa Dewing: How did that go?

30:30Marcus Flemmings: Not good.

30:32Tessa Dewing: That's an amazing, brilliant thing to do, though.

30:34Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, it was. Yeah. So basically, when I was studying, I had no idea what I wanted to do at school. And I got kicked out of school in sixth form. because i just didn't know what i wanted to do so you know they're like you're not doing very well so goodbye so then i had a year out of school where i was like just depressed af and um when i decided i wanted to make films i started writing scripts straight away it's like i'm gonna write every i'm gonna sell my script i'm gonna be super famous because it was around about the time when tarantino and all these directors were like you know really young and doing really well so i thought i'm gonna be one of those guys and you know i sent off to warner brothers and to fox and stuff like that and it was just rejected you get letters in the post from america you're like open it up you think it's going to be because there's no in there was internet but it wasn't like it wasn't like you get emails come through it was more like letters so you open it up and it just says warner brothers on it and you're like oh wow i've sold my script i'm going to be super rich and it's just you've been rejected um so i had like three of those and i kept those and i was

31:33Tessa Dewing: like one day i'm going to go to that kind of drove you for sure for sure because i mean at least they sent you a rejection letter so they don't just ignore you i think they just ignore you now don't

31:42Marcus Flemmings: they completely ignore you now yeah um so it was really it was really uh humbling experience when you're 17 to to get rejection letters from warner brothers but it felt like you said it kind of

31:53Tessa Dewing: drove me to to want to be successful and you are so your feature film the model yes uh won best british asian film at the uk asian film festival which must have been fantastic the trailer is beautiful the cinematography is beautiful thank you very much actually what the model in the film

32:12Marcus Flemmings: she's actually with sasha yeah yeah so she's fab she's amazing she's amazing i've known her since what 2018 um she first joined us and then she's really worked her way up and you know she's doing amazing things now which is great thank you very much for the kind words and yeah we won the award um and it is about a girl who's a model but also trying to fight with her family dynamics and like her past and her mother's past and there's a lot of things going on what is the plan for it

32:41Tessa Dewing: because you can't watch it at the moment can you no you can't what's the plan for that so all my

32:45Marcus Flemmings: films so i've got i'd say right now i've got three films all three of them star sasha i've got four films three of them star sasha the plan for me is not to just push them onto amazon or whatever because a lot of films nowadays go into streaming services because that market's oversaturated and it'll just disappear it will just disappear and no one will see it so the plan for me is not to do anything with them and just hold on to them for a bit and try and release them through my own methods whether it be cinema whether it be through my own website youtube whatever but i just feel like the market is so saturated with film there's no point in us pushing this film out there people don't watch it it disappears and then the value is gone because i have made films in the past before the most recent batch of films that I've put onto streaming platforms and you just don't hear about them or you go to sales agents sales agents take them yeah because I guess behind your recommended

33:37Tessa Dewing: ones that come up on your Netflix home page there's hundreds of thousands there thousands

33:42Marcus Flemmings: and every day there's like millions of films that people are making and you basically just get what your algorithm absolutely and even so like you're not gonna watch I love Sasha and she's amazing but You're not going to watch a film with Sasha compared to a film with Zendaya right now. And I'm sure in the future that's going to change. And Sasha was going to be incredibly successful. But right now, realistically speaking, you may, I mean, the odd person may go on it and go, that looks interesting. Like you said, the trailer was good.

34:07Tessa Dewing: I thought the trailer was great. I'd really like to watch it. Some people probably will watch it. So what about like the little picture house cinemas and stuff like that?

34:13Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, so that's the plan. So I produced and wrote a film called Before Nikal, which has Sasha in it. And we just did our own cinema run on Valentine's Day last year. and we sold out in Bradford, Manchester, London, free screens as well. That would be the best method to do it. It's just about what you do with the film afterwards. So I'm still trying to figure out, I've worked out how to make the films now on a very low budget. I've worked out how to win festivals, just now it's about distribution, which is the hardest part of filmmaking, really.

34:43Tessa Dewing: A lot of your work explores identity, race and culture and how people see one another. Yeah. um do some young people still face a barrier to modeling um that it's not necessarily coming

34:57Marcus Flemmings: from the industry but from whether their family or culture you know sort of accepts that yeah that's still a thing i think it is less of a thing than when we first started i think now it's about people's own um barriers okay um and there's nothing wrong with that you know some models wear hijabs some are muslim and they don't want to do certain things some uh you know some have non-binary they want to be associated with being a female or male um so yeah i think it's now more

35:30Tessa Dewing: about self-choice absolutely which is a good thing it's a wonderful thing it means we've moved on

35:36Marcus Flemmings: there is still instances where families will be like that's not a good idea don't do modeling but I think it's changed it's changed a lot I wonder with the creative industries I think

35:47Tessa Dewing: sometimes I kind of frightened of getting conversations about diversity wrong and it

35:53Marcus Flemmings: can then come across as being a bit like performative yeah yeah yeah yeah again I think it's it's a noble effort it's a noble effort trying to trying to get it right I think I think You should be applauded for that. But it is a bit clumsy sometimes.

36:12Tessa Dewing: Do we need creative work to become braver again?

36:16Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, for sure. And I think what needs to happen, I think in front of the camera, diversity is really good. It's not perfect. It's really, really good. It's way better than, you know, when Sandra Reynolds first started or when Dame first started. It's way better. But I think behind the camera is not changed very much. I think that's the main problem when it comes to authentically putting things onto screen. Yeah, because it's almost, yeah, yeah.

36:40Tessa Dewing: I think there's still sometimes a tick list of what the diverse cast they have to have. But actually, they're not really thinking about who the campaign's for.

36:50Marcus Flemmings: Totally, totally.

36:51Tessa Dewing: You know, and also I think, I always think, you know, you see brands, you know, they'll have a big post up about Black History Month or Pride or, but then actually their culture behind the scenes doesn't reflect that, you know, throughout the rest of the year. It's performative.

37:05Marcus Flemmings: back to 2020 during COVID the black square on your profile everyone's doing it but no one knows why they're doing it everyone's just doing it because everyone else is doing it if you don't do it you look bad but no one knows why they're doing it and I don't like that, I prefer that didn't happen I prefer people actually just didn't do anything rather than do it just because it doesn't mean anything it's like what you said, companies that post about the Holocaust or Black History Month or whatever but then like you said They're not representative of what they're posting about. You know, it raises awareness for sure, which is cool.

37:39Marcus Flemmings: But if you're doing it kind of just to tick a box, then I'm not interested in that at all. Just don't do that. There's no point.

37:46Tessa Dewing: Yeah. Oh, now, Megan, Duchess of Sussex. Oh. So you were recently quoted. What was that in? Do you know what?

37:57Marcus Flemmings: I was talking to you before we started the podcast.

37:59Tessa Dewing: Yeah.

38:00Marcus Flemmings: Can you tell me what newspaper it was? I can't remember. I don't know.

38:03Tessa Dewing: I haven't written that down. I just, I can't remember either. I think I saw it on your Instagram, actually. It was.

38:09Marcus Flemmings: Telegraph?

38:09Tessa Dewing: Was it Telegraph? It's one of the biggies. It was one of the biggies. Broadsheets. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:13Marcus Flemmings: So they reached out to me two weeks ago and they were like, what are your thoughts about Meghan coming back to the UK and getting back into the industry? And I was like, well, good for her. That's good news for her. That's wonderful. She can come back and she can do that because that, you know, she's an actress and why not?

38:29Tessa Dewing: I think they were asking you about whether she could, you know, sort of separating that strong persona and what roles she could reasonably play.

38:40Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, they were asking about the person, the journalist, lovely journalist, she asked, I think her name was Marianne. She was asking me, she asked me the question, could she play a council estate mother?

38:52Tessa Dewing: And I said, probably not, because it's Meghan.

38:55Marcus Flemmings: and I wouldn't really believe, but I wouldn't have believed that before. You think she could?

39:00Tessa Dewing: Yeah, I do.

39:02Marcus Flemmings: You think Meghan could be...

39:03Tessa Dewing: She might have to work on the accent.

39:05Marcus Flemmings: 100%, yeah.

39:06Tessa Dewing: And we'd have to have good hair and makeup.

39:07Marcus Flemmings: Oh, yeah, or bad hair and makeup.

39:09Tessa Dewing: Yeah.

39:12Marcus Flemmings: I'm not too sure. I'm a fan. She was really good in suits, but I'm not too sure if she could be a council estate mother of three in Brixton.

39:21Tessa Dewing: She'll be on EastEnders next. That'd be wonderful.

39:26Marcus Flemmings: wonderful i'll tune in for that they could bring back danny dyer and have megan markle in it i couldn't believe that she could play a counselor just based on the fact that she is the duchess of sussex um so i think it could be a problem i think that's probably why if you look at someone like kim kardashian who is very successful um for a myriad of reasons that we won't go into on the podcast um she does not come across as an actress for me and i think uh that has been qualified by some of the projects she's done recently so i think it's very hard depends what

39:59Tessa Dewing: you do but i agree with that but i actually think megan can act yeah no yes she can she can uh yeah

40:04Marcus Flemmings: totally she can act i don't want to i don't want to be kicked out of the country whereas i can't see kip kardashian being a totally agree yeah yeah it's not the best comparison but i guess my point is yeah i can't see the the a member of the royal family being a council estate mother of three i can see her playing a more illustrious role i can imagine her playing you know in suits i don't know the boss was in suits but i can imagine playing the boss yes in a law firm yeah i can't imagine the playing like what she was playing a paralegal i can't imagine the playing the paralegal no okay so i do no i yeah yeah i do think at that level of of success it does affect what you can do we're seeing a lot more which is such

40:48Tessa Dewing: a good thing you know multi-hyphenate performers like people you know modeling they're acting they're you know creators yeah absolutely which is a great thing because i think again the industry you know years ago would be a nightmare for that and you kind of touched upon having to do allied when you you have them you know you had casting directors go well they they can't act they're a

41:08Marcus Flemmings: model you know yes i think it still happens as well a little bit yeah but i do think it is changing you're right like you can be an influencer model actor um have a business at the same time and there's nothing wrong with that or nothing i do think that would be quite hard to be perceived as a proper actor i still think it'd be hard i think it's a very snobbish industry um but at the same time it's possible it's totally possible like a lot of actors now are doing everything that you said so it's totally possible and it's good it's a good thing yeah it is a good thing

41:40Tessa Dewing: and i think it's interesting isn't it to do different different things rather than just

41:44Marcus Flemmings: doing the same thing you've got a podcast and you run a company so yeah yeah there you go so it's totally it's totally possible it's totally possible and i think it gives you just on a personal level it does give you that kind of relief away from the stress of whatever whatever else you're doing you know if you're an actor and you're successful and you want to own a

42:04Tessa Dewing: a fashion brand it's great you do something else and i think do something else flexible and then

42:09Marcus Flemmings: it all sort of fits together doesn't it like a jigsaw i think a lot of models who who and actors who are kind of you know trying to wait for work could easily float between different things because

42:23Tessa Dewing: it's a way 100 because i think there's nothing worse than you know your whole career being about how you look or you know whereas if you have something else i think it's really important to have something else that balances that out, you know. And then when you get your modelling and acting jobs, that's lovely, you know, but you're not 100 % relying on that or 100 % just, you know, having those rejections day after day after day, which everyone gets.

42:48Marcus Flemmings: Yeah.

42:49Tessa Dewing: Without anything else that you feel successful for.

42:51Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, I feel sorry for them. I was going through our records yesterday, in fact, and seeing models doing like 300 self-tapes in one year and getting two jobs. and it's like whoa that's hard yeah that's tough like I don't know how they do it it's really admirable that they keep persisting with it I'm really in awe of anyone in the industry who keeps on persisting with it because it is a tough industry when you look at the modeling and

43:19Tessa Dewing: acting industries now what still needs to change the most do you think it was quite a few things

43:23Marcus Flemmings: when I first started BAME the first thing I did was contact equity and I was like there should be an equity for models and they were like there is an equity for models um yeah but that never got off the ground it didn't get off the ground at all at all and my point was because obviously when i was doing the stuff with tmp i saw the absolute bottom end of the industry where people are getting paid 30 pounds 50 pounds 100 pounds for eight hour jobs and i was like there needs to be working standards in practice even at that end of the scale where people have to pay a minimum rate to to models so i think there needs to be grounds and there's nothing but we just start it out we can just there you go we'll start ourselves because honestly it needs to happen because right now it's the wild wild west it needs to change like simple things i feel like we're still in the past and we haven't quite caught up and we really do need to keep up i catch up and the pencils options bane of my life needs to be fees for those like you said there needs to be things in place for model support for models places they can go to and talk to people um it's a challenging industry and a lot of them are going through personal problems on top of that they're being rejected every day and it's like compounding and it's a dream it's like it's a dream of theirs that when they contact an agency for the first time it's like i really

44:40Tessa Dewing: want to be a model absolutely and when they've been on option for something and they're really excited about that and they're thinking i've covered my rent next month if this comes off I would say that to my agents. Just when you call someone to take them off option, you need to really feel it because for them, that's such a massive thing, isn't it? £5 ,000 gone.

45:00Marcus Flemmings: And they've spent that money already. Yeah, absolutely.

45:03Tessa Dewing: They've done their self-tape.

45:05Marcus Flemmings: Yeah, they've done the whole shebang. And I think it's really unfair of clients, again, who are earning millions of pounds, these companies, and they're spending it on lovely dinners and stuff. Just give the models. So you're going to put 20 people on option. You don't need 20 people on option. But if you are going to do that, if each person needs to get 20 pounds or 30 pounds or whatever, that's fair for me. But there's little things like that that could change and make the industry a lot better, a lot more fair.

45:32Tessa Dewing: There's a guy in New York, Greg Chan, who I actually did a podcast episode with while I was out there. And he started something called the Supermodel Project, which is incredible. So he had a place in a hotel, like a big room in New York, all the way through New York Fashion Week. and it was somewhere where all the models could go. Loved this. There was loads of support, loads to do. But he then has the group that runs throughout the year and they do charity things like they'll all go and do a beach cleanup or something. So it gets them all together. And yeah, I thought that was brilliant. That's brilliant.

46:02Tessa Dewing: We need something like that over here

46:03Marcus Flemmings: because there needs to be a place.

46:05Tessa Dewing: And to link people up with other models so they can talk between themselves and things.

46:09Marcus Flemmings: Because again, I think the same thing with the industry thing. Like we don't know each agency. We all think that we're enemies. Yeah, yeah. models also think the same thing and you know it's pitted because the industry is so pitted against them they have nothing to kind of grasp onto at times and again i go back to the instance of people doing 300 self-tapes in a year or 500 self-tapes in a year and getting two jobs like that is disheartening af and i think it'd be really nice if there was a place they can go to talk chill out if there's people there who could you know they can talk to a person help them out advisor or mentor or something like that i think there needs to be more of that for me and just things that support agencies as well that help us yeah do you know i had um it's such a stressful

46:56Tessa Dewing: job being a hundred percent actually and what really i suppose you just sort of get used to i think you either thrive on that or you don't you know you either thrive on that kind of stress and but you know it really really is and we had a health and safety inspection it was really kind of bought it and everything was fine and she was she was but she was downstairs doing her measuring from the door to the whatever that they have to do but she was obviously out of sight she was on the booking floor but she wasn't obviously in the booking room when she came out she sent her report and she said oh everything's fine you know apart from there was this one big red exclamation mark like at the top urgent urgent i i experienced a lot of stress she did yeah well no she obviously heard saw or heard that i think basically someone hadn't turned up for a car you know the normal the normal stuff so they're probably a bit like oh someone can get hold of someone or all that but but actually that is constant isn't it it's constant and i did it does make me think you know we we sort of talk about mental health support for the models and things which is absolutely so important but actually also for the agents because that's never really talked about it's like and i think i'm my agents my bookers would love to sit around the table with bookers from diversity agency bookers from mot bma they're probably all pitted as everyone thinks that they're enemies and competitors yeah but actually that would be great to have a night out with everyone together or uh so that they can sit down and chat they're all doing the same thing they're all they realize you're not alone probably know a lot of the same models and actors and absolutely expectations

48:35Marcus Flemmings: change as well because you're probably thinking oh my god that book is probably making this amount of money and yeah doing this and booking this many people not having stress when you sit down and talk to the other book exactly the same it's exactly the same and it must be disheartening as well not specifically your agency but being an agent and booking a model for a 10 000 pound buyout whilst you're being paid a certain wage and seeing them being flown out abroad and being like oh that's you know it's like the disparity of you know it's loads of things like that for me it's more on a human level as well as putting things in place like practically like we were talking about starting a thingy but um just like in human level just like a human level the models like having conversations with them places for them to go to places for agents to go to talk to

49:18Tessa Dewing: like a model coach that isn't with any of the agencies but it's like greedy and yeah

49:24Marcus Flemmings: because there's loads of people that email about model coaching. Yeah, somebody that can just sit down with them.

49:29Tessa Dewing: Yes, yes. And just say, yeah, what are you feeling? Yeah. How are you getting on? You know, that doesn't work for any particular agency. Absolutely. You know, that's just can give them advice. Yeah, it's a neutral place for them to go to and talk.

49:42Marcus Flemmings: And just like, and there's probably like stuff I know for a fact that models go to test shoots and even normal bookings and things happen that do trigger them. and they don't talk about it because they're like oh that's just how the industry is they're not going to tell you because they just think that's how the industry is and sometimes they're not comfortable telling you as well um so just like having things in place where people are more safe yeah um and i think just i just i just think a bit of it's a bit of a wild wild west this industry it's exactly why we think that each agency is the enemy of us is because there's no talking everything's just happening there's fees people are fighting for models there's contracts that are so different to each other that don't make sense sometimes there's like mother agents it's this absolute vulture city and it doesn't need to be like that so i think that's

50:31Tessa Dewing: the main change that needs to happen yeah absolutely marcus thank you so much thank you so

50:36Marcus Flemmings: much you're amazing thank you what you're doing is amazing as well thank you no thank you i really

50:42Tessa Dewing: appreciate really appreciate you you coming on and you know giving your time and telling me your story it's brilliant and i'm just gonna say if there are any other you know any agencies out there that want to come and talk to me i'd really like to speak to you i think it's really good that we all get together and have a chat and just a link up um yeah just pop me an email podcast at business of modeling.co.uk and if you've enjoyed this podcast please subscribe leave a review and share it with someone who might find it interesting you can also follow the diversity agency allied artists and Sandra Reynolds models for more conversations about the business of modeling talent and representation.

51:24Tessa Dewing: Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.