Green & Peter Chartered Accountants

0:00Ben Price: Welcome to the Business of Modelling. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency established in 1975. In this podcast, I sit down with models, agents, brands, creatives and industry experts to talk about their careers, their experiences and the future of our industry. Today we're talking about something that affects every working model and actor, whether they're earning their first£100 or have been working internationally for 20 years, money and tax. Models and actors are often self-employed, can have very irregular income and may work in several countries in the same year.

0:41Ben Price: They can have deductions such as agency commission, travel expenses and foreign taxes made before the money even reaches them and very few people enter this industry knowing or thinking about how any of that actually works. Today I'm joined by Robert Green and Ben Price from Green and Peter Chartered Accountants. Robert and his firm have extensive experience working with people in the creative industries so we're going to try and demystify the financial side of being a model or actor. So Robert and Ben, welcome to the Business of Modelling. Thank you, nice to meet you. I'm going to start with Robert.

1:18Ben Price: Before we get into tax and everything, could you tell me a little bit about you and Green and Peter and about how you came to set it up?

1:25Robert Green: So Green and Peter was founded in 1994. Previously, I was finance director of a retail jewellery company for many years, and the company, due to the recession, had to go into liquidation. I then ended up having just moved into my new house, having two young daughters and no income. And I thought, what do I do? I was playing squash one day with Derek Peter, and he was financial director of Tottenham Football Club. He actually left Tottenham. He was starting out by himself. And I said to Derek, well, we're both starting out. We've got no clients. Why don't we at least share the expenses? So we came to Whetstone, we found our lovely offices, and we had no clients.

2:26Robert Green: So I always had a love of art and I met my first client who was a sculptor and he worked in a building just in Old Street where there were lots of creative people. So I used to go partying there and doing anything to get clients.

2:49Ben Price: Did you think at that point that you wanted to specialise in the creative industries or did that come later?

2:54Robert Green: Not at that stage. Really, I wanted to just earn some money, so I would take anyone.

3:00Ben Price: Okay, yeah.

3:02Robert Green: Okay, so, but what happened was I was introduced into this scene of all creative people. So there was the sculpture introduced me to an artist, introduced me to people in the film industry, introduced me to DJs and models and all a whole creative scene. And I went to nightclubs and raves and really anywhere where I could meet creative people. and it was a lot of fun on the way and we built up a reputation because one we we were not stuffy accountants but two we had a way of actually talking to people and making them feel comfortable because a creative person is actually petrified of anything to do with HMRC and the norm for them is to put their heads in the sand and hope it all goes away.

4:09Robert Green: And it doesn't go away. It very often emerges. And we deal with lots of cases where people come to us and they haven't registered as self-employed. And we've got five years to deal with, 10 years to deal with. And we've got all the penalties to try and mitigate if we can. What we always say is, why did you leave it so long? And what they say is, well, I really didn't want to play that game.

4:38Ben Price: And so your message today and what we're trying to do today, and my message as well is try and understand this before you start and get what you need, get signed up, deal with an accountant, have somebody that knows what they're doing to help you before you start rather than when you get into trouble.

4:55Robert Green: Very much so. But once you make that step, it's not so bad. It's a relief. It's a weight off of your mind to know that there is someone who is looking after you.

5:08Ben Price: And Ben, what about you? How did you come to be sitting at this table? So about almost four years ago now, I started off at Green and Peter as an intern. So I started off knowing nothing, joined the farm. Was it straight after A-levels? Yeah, straight after A-levels. around A-levels. It was about COVID time, so I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But yeah, so I had a, where I was learning, I was learning my AAT level three. The teacher there knew Robert. He was able to sort of, and I've been here ever since. It's been good. I've learned lots over the years, dealing with models, creatives, actors as well, which has been really good and interesting.

5:47Ben Price: And is looking after somebody in our industry very different from looking after somebody with a conventional sort of salary? I would say so. I'd say it's a lot more interesting. The sort of things that they're doing in their day-to-day lives, of course, isn't the standard thing, nine to five, same place every day. And it's a lot more enjoyable dealing with people who've got sort of interesting lives and stories to tell. So I was trying to think about how we could frame this chat, this conversation, so that people found it interesting, but also they understood because models that can have, there's so many different points of their career.

6:25Ben Price: So what I thought we'd do is introduce Olivia. So rather than jumping around lots of different subjects and tax subjects, I thought we'd create a fictional model and follow her through her career. So we're going to start when Olivia's 18. So she's just signed with her first model agency and knows absolutely nothing about tax or the industry. And then hopefully, we're going to give her a very successful international career, send her around the world, bring her back to have a family, start another business, continue modelling into her classic years and eventually see what happens when she's still being booked after state pension age.

7:04Ben Price: So yeah, along the way, I'd like you to tell us what Olivia should be doing with her money. So we're going to start. Olivia's 18 and has just signed. Despite what people may think, Very few people walk into a model agency, start working immediately and suddenly earning enough from modelling that they never have to do anything else. So for most people, it starts much more gradually. Olivia might be studying or working in a cafe or a bar or doing another flexible job that allows her to attend castings and take bookings when they come in. So financially, where does she start?

7:38Robert Green: As far as the modelling is concerned, as soon as you start earning over£1 ,000, you've got a duty to register with HMRC. There is a misconception because a lot of people think that the personal allowance limit is about£12 ,000, and unless they're earning over£12 ,000, they won't pay any tax. but the fact is they still have to register with HMRC.

8:10Ben Price: And I assume that the personal allowance, I suppose people think that when they're employed and they don't have to do anything there because obviously that all comes through their employer. So if you're self-employed then it's a little bit different. And registering with HMRC means registering as self-employed and getting a UTR, is that right?

8:32Robert Green: A tax reference number, a UTR. And with a lot of people that come to us, they come to us, we have to onboard them as a new client. But we will get the UTR tax reference number for them to make it as easy as possible.

8:51Ben Price: Okay. And what does being self-employed and operating as a sole trader actually mean? Because that's how models operate.

8:59Robert Green: What it means is that if you've decided to be self-employed, you have to, at the end of each year, which is the tax year goes up to the 5th of April, you have to produce your accounts and work out what your tax liability is. And under self-assessment, you file that with HMRC and then you pay the tax accordingly. If you have any other income, because a lot of people have got, you know, they work in cafes or bars or whatever, they will get P60s with all their employment details, the pay and the tax deducted. But that also needs to be included on the tax return. So the tax return covers their self-employment plus any other income that they have.

10:00Ben Price: And that's all known as self-assessment?

10:02Robert Green: That is under self-assessment.

10:04Ben Price: Right, okay. If Olivia earns£500 from her first modelling job, at that point she doesn't need to worry. But the minute she's earned£1 ,000, she needs to make sure that she's now registered with NGMRC and she has her tax reference number.

10:21Robert Green: And she has to register within one month of earning that.

10:26Ben Price: Right. Okay. She might start earning in May. I think you've just touched upon how the tax year works. She might start earning in May and not actually have to hand that tax over for quite some time. Is that where young freelancers can get themselves into trouble sometimes?

10:41Robert Green: Well, they do because they leave it till the end of the tax year. They then think, oh, I need to do a tax return. But the tax return for the year, say if we go to the year to the 5th of April, 2026, that is not actually due until the 31st of January, 2027. So there could be up to two years where they're actually in business, but not doing anything.

11:11Ben Price: Sure. And if they're spending all that money and not putting anything aside for tax. That's where people get themselves into trouble. Exactly.

11:17Robert Green: Also, that is all changing because there's something which is called making tax digital coming in and where if someone earns over 50 ,000, they have to do quarterly making tax digital returns. But that 50 ,000 is coming down to 30 next year and then 20 the year after. So, if they're going to be quarterly... Most people are caught by that and they need to be doing quarterly returns.

11:47Ben Price: Right. Okay. And automatically, once someone has registered to be self-employed, they will get those notifications, will they, from HMRC to say that they have to do that as well?

12:00Robert Green: Yes, they will get all the notifications. Quarterly. And if they come to us, we will get all the notifications. On their behalf. Well, initially, with someone like Olivia, she would come to us and we would hopefully talk to her from day one. And we would say to her, right, this is your income, but these are the expenses that can be used to offset your income. And then we would say, now, how are you going to record all those expenses? And some people are good with Excel spreadsheets. others quite like accounting software such as QuickBooks or Xero which makes it very easy and you can actually attach your invoices to QuickBooks so you don't need to keep all the paper and some people are good with that others can't.

12:54Ben Price: And it's very important I think yeah as you just said to set that up really from day one so that you understand it from day one and you're starting to understand it as you start to work rather than having to have a massive lesson when you've got everything in a mess later on.

13:09Robert Green: And also, if you leave it, you tend to miss things. So you're not claiming as much as you can.

13:15Ben Price: And I guess what some young people would say, if we say to them, right, it's very important you go and see an accountant now is, oh, well, I can't afford an accountant. How, if I'm not earning very much money, I don't know what I'm going to be earning in my first year, I can't afford an accountant? Well, we would say, can you afford not to have

13:35Robert Green: an accountant? Because how much extra tax will you end up paying? But when people come to us, if they're not earning much money, we say to them, we will not charge you maybe the full rate. We tell them what it would be. But we would say, look, in the first year, we'll charge you a lower amount just to ease it in. But the most important thing is that you're in the system and you're recording everything properly.

14:04Ben Price: If£1 ,000 lands in Olivia's bank account, she gets paid£1 ,000 for a job from her agency, how much of that should she mentally regard as hers?

14:14Robert Green: Well, it depends on the level of her income. But assuming she's a basic rate taxpayer, where her income is under 50 ,000, let's say, we say you should put aside 20 % for tax and maybe 10 % for national insurance, because the national insurance, they're pushing it up and up. 30 % is a good guide. Does she need a separate bank account?

14:40Ben Price: Yeah.

14:41Robert Green: We always advise people to have a separate bank account, a savings account, so the money is there. Yeah.

14:50Ben Price: So almost that money comes in and the minute it comes in, you would put 30 % in a different account. So you know that you've got that for when your tax bill is due.

14:58Robert Green: And then also we tell people to have a separate bank account for their business because we don't want to be looking through all their shopping or personal items.

15:09Ben Price: And then keeping records. So Ben, what should Olivia keep from day one? We tend to recommend to keep everything going through one bank account. And that's an easy way to track all the expenses in one place. You can then later on in the year look through everything, see your transactions, and then go back. Maybe if you've got digital receipts, connect them that way. Like Robert said, making tax digital is coming in, which means everything has to be recorded digitally. So if she does have any paper copies of receipts to sort of take photos of those, scan them into the computer and just make sure everything's saved digitally.

15:47Ben Price: To maybe have a folder so she's getting emails from her agents with her payment slips and things just saving those. So a folder, an email folder and then also if you've got the ability I don't know whether you can create a simple Excel spreadsheet if you've got the software available. It just helps to keep everything tidy and ready for when you actually need to.

16:09Robert Green: But we would help them set up a spreadsheet if needed. And because some people can't work with software, but most people can work with Excel spreadsheets. But if they can't, we work out a system whereby we deal with their carrier bags, but we have to deal with it now on a more frequent basis.

16:34Ben Price: So it's making good habits now, isn't it?

16:36Robert Green: Yes.

16:37Ben Price: So Olivia isn't earning enough from modelling yet, so she's also working three days a week and being paid through PAYE. How do those two income streams fit together?

16:47Robert Green: She will get a P60 or a P45 from each employment. She's registered for self-assessment. All her income would go on the tax return, her income from modelling or acting, plus her paid employment. And initially, we see many cases where they make a loss in the beginning on their self-employment. and this loss can be offset against their employment income and they could get a tax refund.

17:24Ben Price: So that's another really good reason to get an accountant very early on.

17:28Robert Green: Yes.

17:28Ben Price: And what if she's at university?

17:30Robert Green: That doesn't matter, okay? If she's earning money, then she has to do a self-assessment tax return. So we've got models as young as eight that have to do tax returns.

17:43Ben Price: Any person, however old they are, has to do a tax return.

17:48Robert Green: Yes, as soon as they're earning over£1 ,000, they have to do a tax return.

17:52Ben Price: This is probably a good point to bring actors in. So an actor could have a PAYE theatre contract, self-employed commercial work, voiceovers, perhaps teaching income. So it's all the same thing. Everything that goes on P60s from anywhere they're on PAYE, that's then all collated together onto their self-assessment tax return.

18:12Robert Green: All their income goes on the self-assessment tax return. You've got maybe actors, they have been successful, but they're in a sort of a quiet resting period. But also they've got other income. They may have a buy-to-let property that they're renting out. They may have interest that they're earning on their deposits. All that needs to go on the tax return. So whatever income from wherever in the world needs to go on this self-assessment tax return.

18:47Ben Price: So that actually makes it sound fairly simple. As long as you keep all of your records, everything then at the end of the year comes in, then you guys can work out the tax that they have to pay from that.

19:01Ben Price: Olivia is now starting to get busier. So her agency may invoice a client£2 ,000, deduct agency commission and perhaps other agreed expenses, and then pay Olivia the balance. So when Olivia talks about what she's earned, which number matters for tax purposes?

19:20Robert Green: We normally like to get both figures, the gross figure and all the deductions, especially because agencies tend to deduct not only their commission, but other expenses, maybe portfolio expenses or travelling. So we like to see the statements from the agency and then we can put the figures in. So all the figures are important.

19:48Ben Price: So, yes, so ideally you like to have a statement from the agency which shows exactly what the agency has invoiced the client and what the agency commission deduction is or any other deductions from that. Yeah.

20:02Robert Green: I mean, that's important, particularly if models have to register for VAT, because the deductions would have VAT and they could claim it back.

20:14Ben Price: Okay. Yeah.

20:15Robert Green: But VAT is a whole different ballgame.

20:18Ben Price: Can you explain the difference for people that don't know between turnover, income and profit? it yeah so like you said if we're looking at the scenario that two thousand pounds would be the turnover that the model has earned those deductions that have come off that two thousand that results in the net that goes to the model they're the sort of cost of sales and expenses that we put on the tax return for the client so that would be her income that would be her income and then you then you would have other expenses that you might have travel certain type of hair and grooming you might be applicable for.

20:56Ben Price: And then those expenses come off of that income and that brings you to your profit. And that's where you're paying the tax. So that goes into all your income and then you get taxed on that amount.

21:06Robert Green: The bottom line is we need to see the net income. And if that's all going into one bank account, then that's great.

21:15Ben Price: Olivia's now building her career and starting to spend money in order to do that. Could you give us the basic rule for deciding whether something is genuinely a business expense?

21:25Robert Green: Expenses is a very gray area. Okay. The basic rule is that it must be wholly, exclusively and necessarily incurred in the course of your business. For instance, if someone has a gym membership, is that entirely for business or is it personal? Okay, and there's very famous tax cases and they call it duality of purpose. If an expense can be business and personal, it may not be allowed at all. We have arguments with HMRC over this all the time. Clothing, makeup and grooming is another one.

22:18Ben Price: Transport, I guess, car.

22:20Robert Green: No, that normally is more straightforward.

22:24Ben Price: Right, okay. So if I go through, so I've got a few examples here. So professional costs like agency commission, accountancy fees, portfolio shoots, headshots, showreels, casting platform subscriptions.

22:38Robert Green: Because they're all wholly for the business.

22:41Ben Price: Yeah. So they're quite straightforward. Yeah. And then we've got training. So acting lessons, voice coaching, dance classes.

22:50Robert Green: All for the business. Yeah.

22:53Ben Price: Yeah. This is where your grey area comes in. So it's appearance, isn't it? So gym membership, personal training, hair, makeup, skin care, cosmetics treatments.

23:03Robert Green: What we do is we are sympathetic. We're trying to do the best we can for the model or actor.

23:11Ben Price: Because I guess they can say reasonably maintaining my appearance is necessary for my job.

23:18Robert Green: Yes.

23:19Ben Price: Yeah, perfect.

23:20Robert Green: But we also have to be mindful of what HMRC are thinking. So we've had some interesting scenarios. We had a meeting with HMRC that were doing an inquiry into one of our models. There were lots of experiments. She claimed, I think the figure was about£50 ,000 in clothing and lots of travel, where we did a deal. But the very interesting one was she claimed for a breast implant. Her argument was that she fell while she was doing a shoot and she damaged her breasts and therefore it needed to be replaced for her to continue her career. Yeah. HMRC were arguing that it was duality of purpose and it was not just for business, it was for her.

24:19Robert Green: And it was in this very room, I had this discussion with someone from HMRC, and we actually agreed that maybe we would get 50 % allowed. Right. So, because we didn't really have a leg to stand on because it was duality of purpose.

24:40Ben Price: So really that just depends on what you can do in a meeting in a grey area like that. If it goes to a meeting. If it goes to a meeting or who's dealing with the case. So I guess they came back to start with and said no and you then argued and pushed back.

24:54Robert Green: Yeah, but we had the meeting here because it was a big case. I mean, things like teeth, that's another one.

25:01Ben Price: Yeah, it is a grey area, isn't it? Ben, what are some of the expenses models and actors try to claim but shouldn't? that you kind of go, oh, come on. A lot of the ones Robert's already said, so the clothing, the makeup, you can claim it if it's a costume that you're only going to use for business use. So you've got a certain type of shoot that you need to wear this clothing for, then you can claim it. But say if you're just wearing regular clothes that you wear outside of business, then we tend to say no. It's not allowable expense. So even clothes that you are part of in your test shoots and your digitals, for instance.

25:37Ben Price: You might need a new pair of black jeans and heels and white t-shirt for agency digital, so you can't claim those.

25:43Robert Green: Well, the argument is, would you wear those jeans afterwards?

25:49Ben Price: Yeah. So maybe you need to keep a special model wardrobe that you can take a picture and say, look, this is my model wardrobe.

25:56Robert Green: I obviously don't wear this at any point, unless I'm doing

26:00Ben Price: model work. Is there anything that they often forget that they could claim?

26:04Robert Green: Well, I find there's a lot of traveling that doesn't get claimed. Overseas, there's travel, but also subsistence, you know, money that you spend whilst you're on a job. It could be either in the UK, there's certain set amounts that you can claim every day, depending on how long you're working for. But when you're overseas, we would claim most of it because if you have to go overseas for work, then you've got to obviously eat. So those are the sorts of things that should be claimed.

26:45Ben Price: Should be claimed. Okay.

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27:20Ben Price: Olivia is now travelling a lot. She's now starting, her career's starting to take off. So, So, you know, she's going to casting shoots, meetings, meeting, you know, test shoots. The travel that she could potentially claim, so trains, taxis, mileage, parking, hotels, flights. All of that is allowable. Okay. What about travelling to an unpaid casting?

27:45Robert Green: Well, again, it's allowable because she's going with a view to getting work.

27:50Ben Price: Yeah. And so if she's travelling abroad to meet an agency with no guarantee of representation, and that still counts for getting work. Olivia, she's had a really good year. She's gone from earning£20 ,000 for modelling to perhaps£80 ,000 or£100 ,000. What changes?

28:08Robert Green: The basics don't change. You know, it's the same as if it's£20 ,000. She probably will have different agencies. Yeah. So very often the models have agencies in London, Paris, Milan. New York. That may change. But the basic principles are all the income needs to come into one particular pot.

28:36Ben Price: And what are payments on account and why do they sometimes give newly successful self-employed people a bit of a shark?

28:44Robert Green: Payments on account is something that really people don't understand at all. In your first year, say you trade up to the 5th of April, you wouldn't make a payment on account. Once the accounts have been done and the tax worked out, by the 31st of January in the following year, you need to pay the tax for the year plus 50 % on account of the following year.

29:19Ben Price: Which is estimated based on the tax that you've paid this year.

29:25Robert Green: And then the other 50 % is payable on the 31st of July.

29:31Ben Price: And I think that is quite confusing. Very confusing.

29:35Robert Green: That's why we tell people to put money aside in a separate bank account and also to communicate with us during the year because models and actors have fluctuating incomes. So, they might have a very good year followed by a not so good year. So, the tax liability in the following year would be less and therefore we can reduce the payments on account.

30:02Ben Price: And you could even get a rebate?

30:03Robert Green: Yes, you could if you make a loss.

30:06Ben Price: And what point does VAT become something Olivia needs to think about? The VAT threshold is£90 ,000. We tend to say if you're within a month's wages of that£90 ,000, you should be thinking about registering. To register, what you'd have to do is just, it's an online form that you submit online, fill in a few pieces of information about what you do and what your earnings are predicted to be. And what that basically means is you'll have to begin charging VAT on top of all your sales. The standard rate for that is 20%. But if you go into detail, there's flat rates and there's different types of accounting schemes.

30:44Ben Price: But£90 ,000 is the threshold to start thinking about that.

30:47Robert Green: Going for the basics is a little bit confusing because it depends where your client actually is. Because the agency, you're not invoicing the agency that may be based in the UK. The agency are invoicing the client who could be outside of the UK and therefore you don't need to charge VAT on people outside the UK. So therefore the 90 ,000 applies to UK sales.

31:20Ben Price: And your agency needs to know as soon as your VAT registers as well, don't they? Because they then need to claim that VAT on your behalf when they're doing that invoicing.

31:29Robert Green: It could be that it's worthwhile registering for VAT. You would charge VAT to your UK clients and they would pay including the VAT. But you may have expenses in the UK where you can claim VAT on. So, for instance, maybe computers, phones, I don't know, Accountancy fees. Accountancy fees, photographic shoots. So there are quite a few.

32:02Ben Price: And at that point, you have to make sure that every receipt you get shows the VAT or the VAT number. Yes, definitely.

32:09Robert Green: But what you would do is, hopefully you'd be using accounting software. you would take a photo of the receipt and attach it to the entry in the accounts.

32:20Ben Price: Yeah. And actually going back to that, presumably, the more organised that they are with all of this, the less you're going to charge them because the less time that you're going to have to take doing their accounts. Ben, just importantly, the VAT threshold you mentioned of 90 ,000, is that what Olivia takes home after agency commission or on whole turnover? Yeah, so that's before the commission. So that's on the whole turnover.

32:47Robert Green: It would be on what the agency are invoicing the client.

32:54Ben Price: Yes, the whole turnover. Yes.

32:57Robert Green: But then the agency would deduct their commission and charge VAT.

33:04Ben Price: Yes.

33:04Robert Green: And she would be able to claim that VAT in her VAT return as an expense.

33:11Ben Price: What happens if one enormous advertising campaign suddenly pushes her over the threshold? Doesn't matter, I guess. She still has to register at that point.

33:20Robert Green: We have had this and there are called an exemption from registration for a one-off item.

33:27Ben Price: Yeah, you have to let HMRC know.

33:29Robert Green: But you have to tell them. Okay.

33:31Ben Price: And at what stage should she start asking whether being a sole trader is still the right structure? When might a limited company be worth a discussion?

33:41Robert Green: If you have a limited company, very often your tax is going to be more than if you're a sole trader.

33:54Ben Price: Which is actually the opposite to the myth, I think, people think. People are told if they have a limited company, automatically means you pay less tax. But that's not the case then.

34:03Robert Green: Not anymore. It used to be very advantageous to have a limited company, but that's all been eroded. And now tax-wise, normally it's better to be a sole trader. We tell people that if there is any possibility of them being sued, then they should have a limited company.

34:33Ben Price: Now, Olivia's UK agency tells her there's interest from Milan. So she's going to go and sign with an Italian agency and she's going to Milan for three months. So this is where things start getting a little bit more complicated, I think. So she's working in Italy, but she's still based in the UK. Where does she pay her tax?

34:53Robert Green: She pays in the UK.

34:55Ben Price: Okay.

34:56Robert Green: She may need to fill in a form for the, say, Milan or the Italian tax authorities to know where she's paying her tax.

35:10Ben Price: Could tax still be deducted in Italy and the income still need to appear on her UK tax return? Some people, some countries or some agencies are worried and they

35:24Robert Green: say, look, I don't care. We're just going to deduct the tax and you sort it out. So we have

35:30Ben Price: this a lot, actually. Yes.

35:32Robert Green: Okay. What we do is we put the gross amount on the self-assessment tax return and we show the tax deducted. We need a tax certificate for the amount deducted and we claim double taxation relief.

35:49Ben Price: So how do double taxation agreements stop her effectively paying tax twice? That's all done in her end of year assessment?

35:59Robert Green: That is done in her self-assessment.

36:01Ben Price: Quarterly, I guess, would it be?

36:04Robert Green: Well, it's all very new. Probably that would be more done at the end of the year.

36:09Ben Price: Because we have this, especially since Brexit, it's been a nightmare as an agent. We're working with clients all over Europe and they all seem to have different rules now. And a lot of them, the production company will just deduct tax at source and then we can't get the paperwork from them.

36:24Robert Green: We need a tax certificate to prove that the tax has been deducted.

36:31Ben Price: Without that certificate, is Olivia going to be paying tax twice?

36:35Robert Green: Yes, she could do it.

36:36Ben Price: Her Italian agency statement might show obviously her agency commission. It might show her accommodation costs, flights, drivers, pocket money, local tax or withholding tax. What does her UK accountant actually need to see?

36:53Robert Green: We would want the statement to see exactly what she's earned and what's been deducted.

36:58Ben Price: If the statement simply says 20 % tax deducted, that's not enough for you to claim it back.

37:04Robert Green: No, we need a certificate from the equivalent of HMRC in that country.

37:11Ben Price: Who should be helping her obtain that? Do you think the Milan agency or her mother agency in the UK?

37:17Robert Green: Probably the Milan agency.

37:19Ben Price: Because it's in their country of jurisdiction. Exactly.

37:22Robert Green: They should know the departments to go to. Because in the UK, how would you know, say, if it's in New York or Paris, where to go? It's all different places. But the agency, look, they're earning nicely out of these models and they should do whatever it is to look after them.

37:40Ben Price: Absolutely. I agree.

37:49Ben Price: I mean, Olivia, we've now created a monster. You know, she's now becoming a truly international model. She has agencies in London, Paris, Milan, New York, Germany and Spain. How on earth does she organise all of that financially?

38:03Robert Green: Everything is dealt with on one self-assessment tax return.

38:08Ben Price: In the UK?

38:09Robert Green: In the UK.

38:11Ben Price: Yeah, so it doesn't matter where she's based. She doesn't need an accountant in every country. It can all be done.

38:17Robert Green: Normally, it can all be done in the UK, although she may have to do a tax return in America as well.

38:25Ben Price: So at what point does a UK accountant maybe need to bring in a specialist from another jurisdiction?

38:31Robert Green: I think as soon as someone's got a lot of income, particularly in America, and they are deducting tax in America, and they require her to do a US tax return, she would need an accountant in that jurisdiction. And we have this a lot with models and singers and, yeah, anyone working abroad. I mean, later on, you might decide, well, are they actually living here? But that's, again, a more complicated issue.

39:11Ben Price: This leads us on, is there something you sort of hear the 183-day rule? Yeah, well, that's coming down.

39:18Robert Green: But that is if you're not living resident in the UK for more than 185 days or whatever it is. Which is roughly half the year. Yeah, half the year. Then you don't need to do a UK tax return.

39:35Ben Price: Could she accidentally become tax resident in another country?

39:38Robert Green: Well, I think the one that sticks out is America, where they would want her to do a US tax return.

39:50Ben Price: And to be fair, it's incredibly difficult to get a visa to work in America anyway, isn't it? So I think...

39:55Robert Green: We're dealing with a case at the moment with a musician who does work in America, and they want to deduct withholding tax, and they will here. and we said to him, because he said, well, shall I show my expenses in America or in England? And we're saying it doesn't matter because we're going to claim double taxation relief.

40:23Ben Price: Olivia is also now working directly for foreign clients. So she's established enough that opportunities come directly to her UK agent from overseas clients. She might never physically leave Britain? So, for example, a German brand books Olivia through her UK agency for a shoot taking place in London, or she creates content from home for an American company. Does the client's location affect the tax or VAT treatment?

40:50Robert Green: No, no. Well, the VAT, we discussed before, if they're outside the UK, she doesn't need to charge VAT, even if she's registered. And probably at this stage, she would be invoicing and, you know, be VAT registered because of what she's invoicing in the UK.

41:11Ben Price: If Olivia travels to Slovenia and Cape Town, for instance, to do the job, so it's a British model working for a British agency for a German client shooting in Cape Town and Slovenia with usage in several countries is where it gets complicated.

41:26Robert Green: It does get complicated, but normally it's where she invoices. So if she was invoicing them in the UK, she would have to charge VAT.

41:35Ben Price: Charge VAT. But if she's invoicing in Slovenia or Cape Town or Germany, we don't charge VAT on that. Yeah, absolutely. And what about exchange rates when she's being paid in euros or dollars?

41:48Robert Green: Yes, probably to get the best exchange rates. But we don't recommend any banks. But also you can use things like euro travel wallets or dollar travel wallets for exchange rates.

42:05Ben Price: Okay, and that's worth looking at?

42:07Robert Green: It's worth having a look at, yeah.

42:08Ben Price: Yeah, and I guess it depends how much you're earning and how often you're earning in euros and dollars.

42:13Robert Green: I mean, there are people that specialises in foreign exchange and maybe you can get better rates through them.

42:20Ben Price: Does leaving money in an overseas bank make any difference to whether she has to declare it in Britain?

42:25Robert Green: No, she has to declare her worldwide income. So if the money is there and earning interest, she has to disclose the interest. And the foreign banks do liaise with HMRC. So in England, they're no. And we very often get letters saying, we've reason to believe that you haven't disclosed all your income.

42:53Ben Price: And actually, people need to know this because as an agency, every year we have to send HMRC an enormous spreadsheet of every single person that has worked, all of their details and what they earn within that tax year. And historically, we've always thought, my God, how on earth can they sort of go through that? I assume they used to just handpick a few out. But with AI now, that's just all going to go in and people are going to get caught if they don't declare things.

43:20Robert Green: People that are not disclosing their income.

43:22Ben Price: Absolutely, yeah.

43:23Robert Green: Yeah, and HMRC know from your returns and other returns that they get who is earning money.

43:31Ben Price: Olivia shoots a campaign today and has paid her basic studio fee, but then she receives a substantial usage payment for her image. Two years later, that campaign is renewed or extended and another big fee arrives.

43:45Robert Green: So the thing is, when the income comes in, it gets taxed. It's a bit like royalties with musicians. They're not going to tax you up front. That would be a bit unfair.

43:59Ben Price: Income is generally dealt with when it's earned or received. So it isn't, yeah, it's not backdated. No, no.

44:07Robert Green: People couldn't afford to pay the tax.

44:10Ben Price: No. And what happens if payment is delayed by months or even crosses into another tax year? It just goes in as a bad debt, presumably, or chasing.

44:19Robert Green: This is what, the payment to the model?

44:21Ben Price: Yes. It either goes in as a bad debt or sometimes we take from the actual money that's received. Olivia is now going to become a creator as well. So she's built a following online and brands are now approaching her for content as well as modelling. She has modelling income, creator income, affiliate commission, and perhaps YouTube or social media revenue. Can all those different income streams still sit within the same business or might they need to be treated any differently?

45:00Robert Green: They can sit within the same business. However, when someone is becoming more successful and building up a brand, we say maybe it is good to have a limited company and you can have the two trading side by side. The limited company for a brand is more credible. It's sensible. You can do things with a limited company, possibly, such as taking out large pension contributions. At the moment, you can take out per director, shareholder, up to£60 ,000 each year. So, we would consider and we have advised people to set up a separate limited company for that.

45:47Ben Price: And what about gifted products? So if Olivia is given a£2 ,000 handbag in return for creating content, is being paid in a product fundamentally different from being paid£2 ,000 in cash?

46:00Robert Green: hmm good question uh by the letter of the law payment uh it comes under the barter system and i think you account for either cash or the money value of what you're receiving so in theory so

46:22Ben Price: officially it should be the same it should be declared as a as an income yes some people

46:28Robert Green: may not and they might say well I've been given this it's no use I'm throwing it away.

46:34Ben Price: Yeah.

46:34Robert Green: But by the letter of the law it's sort of you're receiving money for services in sort of some sort of value.

46:43Ben Price: So that's a similar thing if somebody if someone provides a holiday in return for content.

46:49Robert Green: Yeah exactly. Similar grey area that can be discussed.

46:53Ben Price: So then obviously we've now got with AI coming in, AI and digital likeness. So Olivia's now starting to be offered work involving her digital likeness, where she doesn't have to officially be present on the shoot. So she might receive a fee for creating professional digital assets and then separate fees or royalties when those assets or her likeness is used for agreed usage.

47:21Robert Green: It would be the same as anything else. If she's receiving an income that's taxable.

47:27Ben Price: Taxable, absolutely. So it's almost treated like a usage payment, isn't it? Yeah. Do you think accountants are going to start seeing increasingly complex income streams connected with image, voice and likeness rights?

47:39Robert Green: There will be more unusual sources. They will come in. But it's the same principle. If the money comes in, it's got to be accounted for.

47:49Ben Price: So Olivia is now in her 30s and decides to start a family. You know, self-employed people don't necessarily have the same maternity arrangements as someone in conventional employment. So do you know what maternity support she might be entitled to?

48:06Robert Green: If she was working for a limited company, the company would put her on maternity leave and they would pay.

48:16Ben Price: So actually, that's a good case for her having a limited company at that time.

48:23Robert Green: If she's got money in her own company.

48:25Ben Price: Yeah, if she's earning money and being paid through that quite well, because I guess...

48:29Robert Green: But it probably is not the case. If she is self-employed, she can still apply for maternity allowance, but it's a different thing. And she has to apply directly to the DWP.

48:44Ben Price: So it's different to statutory maternity pay. It's maternity allowance. Yeah. So if she did have a limited company and she was earning wealth from that, she could get paternity fees.

48:55Robert Green: Because she would have a payroll of her own on the limited company.

48:58Ben Price: Yeah. And she would get, I think it's like 90 % of what she's been paid for the first 12 weeks and then it drops down, doesn't it? And then it goes to statutory. And I think maternity allowance is not very much though, is it? It's quite a lot lower than that.

49:13Robert Green: Yeah. But she can claim it.

49:17Ben Price: Yeah, yeah. Can she still model while she's receiving it?

49:21Robert Green: Yes, although I'm not sure how much she can actually earn. I think she can earn a minimum amount, but I think, see, the maternity allowance really is for someone that's not working.

49:38Ben Price: Officially, she shouldn't really be accepting jobs if she's claiming maternity allowance. But there may be an area where she could have maybe have one or two if they were under a certain threshold. Yes, or even one of.

49:53Robert Green: They look at it year by year, don't they? But yes, she can still earn a little bit. But if she's earning a lot, it means she's working and...

50:04Ben Price: And she's not, she shouldn't be claiming maternity allowance. Yeah, so that could be at the end of the tax year. Once you do all that, if you find that someone's been earning and claiming maternity allowance, they could have to pay that back.

50:16Robert Green: Yes.

50:17Ben Price: So then Olivia's going to come back to modelling after she's had her baby. So obviously she's less able now to disappear to Milan for three months. But she's starting to do more commercial and lifestyle work close to home that fits in with her family commitments. Then someone spots her baby in a photo and suddenly the agency wants to represent the baby too. So Olivia and her child are being booked together for family campaigns. So financially, whose money is whose?

50:46Robert Green: If they are being used together, it would be treated as the mother's. If it was just the baby, by the baby on her own or his own, he would be a separate taxpayer in his own right.

51:06Ben Price: So, yes, if Olivia's five-year-old then starts to earn money individually, that income wouldn't belong to Olivia. That couldn't belong. Could it belong to Olivia? No. That would have to be separately treated. Yeah. And she would have to register with HMRC, the child. And self-employed. Self-employed. Yeah. Yes. Okay. And she would then, on behalf of her child, be responsible for declaring all the income that the child earns. And that's still the same limit, is it?

51:36Robert Green: Yes. No, it's all the same. It's just the child is a person. Yeah.

51:41Ben Price: Yeah. OK.

51:42Robert Green: We've got quite a few child actors that we look after and there's interesting things with them. But one of the things that comes up is that the mother or father gets a chaperone fee. and they don't often realise that they have to disclose it on their personal tax return.

52:03Ben Price: So if a family of four are booked together, do the fees need to be clearly allocated between each individual rather than simply paying one family fee to Olivia?

52:12Robert Green: Well, it depends who's invoicing. I suppose they could raise four separate invoices.

52:21Ben Price: So if we're invoicing as an agency and we've got a family booked on a shoot, we could either put, if we put on our invoice, Olivia family, for instance, and quote the fee for the family, or we could put on our invoice each individual breakdown.

52:39Robert Green: Could we do either? Well, how would you allocate the fee?

52:44Ben Price: Well, at the moment, we do it individually, but I'm wondering whether it could, whether legally it could go to Olivia.

52:53Robert Green: Olivia probably would invoice for the whole lot.

52:56Ben Price: Yes.

52:56Robert Green: But she has got the option of getting the other members of her family to invoice, but then they would need to do separate self-assessment tax returns. This is what I'm like.

53:09Ben Price: So this brings me, so Olivia's husband, for example, is a quite happily employed architect, but she's sort of dragged him along on a couple of shoots, maybe for holiday companies or something. But if he's paid a modelling fee alongside his normal PAYE, that's going to complicate things because he's then going to have to register. So could that go through as her income?

53:33Robert Green: Well, if she invoices it as hers.

53:38Ben Price: Right, yeah.

53:39Robert Green: But there might be an advantage in treating them as separate individuals, because it could be that the partner may not be earning any money at all. And therefore, he could utilize lower rates of tax or indeed his personal allowance. But you've got to look at each case individually.

53:59Ben Price: So from an agent's point of view, should we be making sure that every individual family member has a clearly defined fee, even when the client simply thinks of them as the family, or we need to be thinking about their individual circumstances, really, before we make those decisions?

54:17Robert Green: Yeah, you've got to look at it individually, because if it's a one-off, normally just put it through one person. But if it becomes regular, then there's an argument that each member of the family is in business.

54:34Ben Price: So this is incredibly common, we find. You know, modelling is still part of Olivia's life, but she's also started another business. So she might be doing some photography or personal trainer or stylist or consultant or starting an online shop. Could someone operate more than one self-employed business? Yes.

54:55Robert Green: We would look to see should the other business be self-employed or should it be a limited company?

55:02Ben Price: Sure. Would you keep the bookkeeping separate?

55:04Robert Green: Yes.

55:05Ben Price: You would. And can losses in one business ever affect tax on income from another? Yes. Okay.

55:12Robert Green: Because losses in the same tax year as self-assessment can be offset. If it's a limited company, that's different.

55:21Ben Price: And then what happens to VAT when someone has multiple sources of self-employed income?

55:27Robert Green: Oh, I think you'd probably have a separate VAT registration for each type of business. Depends how similar they are, though. I mean, a lot of people just do it all under one for the sake of ease.

55:41Ben Price: Would you at this stage expect Olivia to be speaking to you as her accountant during the year, not just simply once when her taxes due at the end of the year?

55:50Robert Green: Because maybe she would be saying to us, well, look, this is what I'm thinking of doing. Yeah, because she would know in advance.

55:59Ben Price: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So then you can advise her to do the right thing at the start.

56:04Robert Green: We always try and have a meeting or a discussion with our clients before the end of the tax year. So we like to speak to them, say, in February or March, and just say, right, how's the year gone? and are you thinking of doing anything such as buying equipment? But the biggest thing is pension contributions.

56:27Ben Price: Well, we're about to come on to this because Olivia is now about to come into her 50s or 60s. But you want people to look at this in their 20s, really, don't you? As soon as they start working.

56:38Robert Green: So when we take on a new client, we say to them things like, do you have a pension? If not, you should be speaking to a financial advisor, not only for pensions, but things like life insurance, permanent health insurance. Which is very important if you're self-employed. Well, what happens if you've got a model that falls down and can't work? Happens a lot or breaks an arm. They really need protection. So life insurance and permanent health they should have on top of the pension, which the pension is really tax efficient to do. Yeah, because that reduces the amount of tax on which you start paying tax.

57:29Robert Green: So and also we say to people at the beginning, do you have a will? You know, especially if they've got children.

57:39Ben Price: Financially, is there anything different about being a self-employed model later in life? You know, her income might be lower than it was during her busiest years, but potentially more stable, maybe. You know, would you encourage models to think about that transition before it happens?

57:55Robert Green: Well, we would encourage models from day one to get a financial advisor. They would need to be advised, not by us, we can say in general terms, to have money put aside for rainy days.

58:12Ben Price: And how important is their national insurance record for their eventual state pension?

58:17Robert Green: They have to show 35 years of contributions in order to get the full state pension. If they don't, there is an allowance for time off when you've had a baby. And also, So if you don't earn enough, you can make voluntary contributions.

58:38Ben Price: So should someone periodically check whether they have gaps? How can you even do that?

58:43Robert Green: You can, I think there's a website, which is what is my pension or something.

58:49Ben Price: Or you just put your National Insurance number in.

58:51Robert Green: How many years have I contributed?

58:54Ben Price: Well, that's a good idea. Everyone should do that, shouldn't they, to try and just make sure that they have got what they need to pay in?

59:01Robert Green: Can you then top up? You can top up. Okay. But the general rule is you need to do 35 years.

59:08Ben Price: And then actually, it does also make sense to make larger pension contributions in successful years. You know, if you've had...

59:15Robert Green: That is separate. The 35 years is for the state pension. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The separate contributions, you would have your own fund if you were successful and put in as much as you can.

59:29Ben Price: Olivia, finally, she's reached state pension age. Finally, that makes someone of that age sound old. Yeah. But she's reached state pension age and she's still being booked. And we have lots of models working into their 80s. Can you receive the state pension and continue earning money as a model?

59:45Robert Green: Yes.

59:46Ben Price: Okay. And is the income still subject to income tax?

59:50Robert Green: Yes.

59:50Ben Price: Exactly the same. So we're still every year filling in that same self-assessment.

59:54Robert Green: Yeah, exactly.

59:55Ben Price: Everything you earn.

59:56Robert Green: The self-assessment is all income. So you put on your pension and there's a big thing now about some pensions become taxable. But you put on your pension, you put on your self-employment, your income from companies, from rent, from interest and everything.

1:00:18Ben Price: And what happens to national insurance once a self-employed person reaches state pension age?

1:00:23Robert Green: Once they don't have to pay.

1:00:25Ben Price: So they could potentially have state pension income, private pension, modelling income, usage payments from old campaigns and income from another business all arriving at the same time.

1:00:38Robert Green: Yes.

1:00:38Ben Price: That still doesn't create any complications because you're still filling in the same self-assessment form at the end of the year. So all you need to do is just keep records.

1:00:46Robert Green: All you put down on the self-assessment form is the date of birth. And so they know not to deduct or charge national insurance.

1:00:56Ben Price: So if Olivia carried on modelling into her 80s, is there any financial or tax reason why she couldn't? No.

1:01:08Ben Price: What happens if Olivia gets something wrong? I think we've been extremely responsible with her so far. But let's get her to make a mistake. So she realises she's forgotten to declare some income or she suddenly realises she receives a big tax bill she wasn't expecting or can't afford. I'm assuming you're going to say ignoring HMRC is the worst possible response.

1:01:30Robert Green: Exactly. You've got to deal with them and you should come to us and then we would speak to HMRC, find out what hasn't been declared and then…

1:01:45Ben Price: Well, are they open to kind of payment arrangements?

1:01:48Robert Green: Yes, yes. No, they're quite understanding.

1:01:51Ben Price: They're humans, I think. Yeah.

1:01:52Robert Green: Well, the thing is, there's enough people that don't pay them at all. So, anyone that comes up to them and says…

1:01:59Ben Price: I know I owe this. I can't afford to pay it. How can we sort this out?

1:02:04Robert Green: There may be penalties involved, which could range from 10 % to 50%. Normally by negotiation, it depends how innocent it is.

1:02:14Ben Price: So what is the difference between someone making a genuine mistake and deliberately concealing income?

1:02:20Robert Green: Well, deliberately concealing income is fraudulent. We get people with properties overseas. So we get inquiries. They know through something, someone, that there's income. But then it might lead to other things like, where do they get the money from to buy that property? So it can open up big things.

1:02:44Ben Price: I'd like to go on to the agency's role. So we've followed Olivia through her career from a model's perspective. but I'd like to look at our responsibilities as agents. Where should an agency's financial responsibility end and the model or actor's responsibility begin?

1:03:03Robert Green: Individual's responsibility is to conduct their tax affairs properly. They can't rely on, oh, I didn't know or I thought someone else was doing it. It's their responsibility to do it properly. The agency, I suppose you're running a business.

1:03:24Ben Price: We shouldn't be acting as their accountant. No, no.

1:03:28Robert Green: But you should be doing things to ensure that they're doing things right, or at least telling them to.

1:03:35Ben Price: Yeah. And I think it's important, like hopefully what we're doing now, you know, the agencies provide basic financial education to people when they first join.

1:03:44Robert Green: Because they just don't know at the beginning.

1:03:47Ben Price: Yeah.

1:03:48Robert Green: And they think, well, the normal is, oh, I'm owning so little, I don't need to do anything.

1:03:56Ben Price: Yeah. And are there things that agencies regularly do that make accountants' lives unnecessarily difficult? Are agents that you guys deal with normally very open and happy to give you the info you need? well if you ask too well you ask too many questions they uh tend not to give everything

1:04:14Robert Green: um so yeah some take exception with you asking for things they say well we're doing everything right um and and this is the way it is and if we say well this is not quite right they say well no one's ever said that before you know some are very you know aggressive and i actually i think it's

1:04:36Ben Price: important that we agencies and accountants work together yeah because at the end of the day we're

1:04:43Robert Green: both trying to do the best for the model absolutely

1:04:51Ben Price: I'd like you guys just to tell me a few scenarios that you've that you've had you know stories that you could maybe tell us we had a model who was earning hundreds of thousands of pounds and HMRC came to us and was asking should you be VAT registered and they were telling us how far back you need to go and we have to send all these records to HMRC just to confirm and our argument was that majority of this model's income was coming from overseas and what we had to do was check with the agency where all this money is coming from and so what we had to ask for was all the invoices so if a model agency can can just make sure to keep everything on record and And yeah, so because this income was coming from overseas, our argument was that she would never need to be VAT registered in the first place.

1:05:38Ben Price: And this, we got the help from the normal agency, getting all the invoices and their point of view of why they've not charged or told our model that she should be VAT registered or anything like that. And it turned out in the end, after going back and forth a few times, HMRC agreed with our point that all the income is outside the scope of VAT. So she doesn't need to be VAT registered. She does not earn in the UK. Yeah, and that's just something to be very aware of. So, yeah, your VAT threshold, the income threshold is based on UK income. Yeah, and if it turns out that she should have been VAT registered in that scenario, then she would have to go back from the point that she passed the VAT threshold.

1:06:21Ben Price: So then you're looking at potentially going back years. And then, because they haven't claimed the VAT on the invoices, that would stop.

1:06:28Robert Green: Then there's interest and penalties, and it would have been really, really big.

1:06:32Ben Price: So thank goodness that you managed to sort it out.

1:06:34Robert Green: They didn't want to back down HMRC, but they had to in the end.

1:06:39Ben Price: Any other stories?

1:06:40Robert Green: Funnily enough, we get so few inquiries now from HMRC. Maybe it's because we're chartered accountants and they know we deal with creative people that we're a bit careful. so our reputation obviously works and I can't remember the last inquiry we had we just try and be reasonable and it's especially with this duality of purpose you know if we did that say 20 % we're being reasonable yeah so that if they do come back we say look well you know this is reasonable what things have you seen people come in and

1:07:20Ben Price: they're in a real muddle with if people have sort of not had an accountant early enough.

1:07:25Robert Green: Okay, they come in and they say, I think I should be registered for self-assessment. So we say, fine. When did you start earning income? And we've got one at the moment. It goes back to 1991.

1:07:47Ben Price: Well, and they'd never been registered for...

1:07:49Robert Green: No, no. So we said, right, how much money did you earn in those years? We don't know. But they say, not a lot. And it probably wasn't a lot. We say, right, we need...

1:08:02Ben Price: But there's no record, presumably.

1:08:03Robert Green: No, no records. At the very least, we need your bank statements going back...

1:08:09Ben Price: As far as we can get there. Yeah.

1:08:11Robert Green: And so this one in particular is actually an influencer and a model. He changed his bank account several times so he could get, we got back to 2001, okay, eventually. And we just got to piece it together as a jigsaw puzzle. And it happens quite a lot. Okay, going back.

1:08:34Ben Price: But he's going to get into big trouble, presumably, or how will you manage that? Do I not want to know?

1:08:41Robert Green: No, no, I can tell you, because we try and do the best we can for people. I say to them, why did you not think that you needed to register? Oh, I wasn't earning enough money. Okay. How has your health been over these years? Have you had any mental problems? Have you been an alcoholic or a drug taker? Have you had any family bereavement? Because these are all

1:09:07Ben Price: the sorts of things you can use as defence. Yeah, that's right, to try and reduce the penalties.

1:09:12Robert Green: and this is what we try and do.

1:09:14Ben Price: Gosh, yes, that must be quite nice and meaty though as an accountant to try and sort things like that out.

1:09:21Robert Green: Well, yeah, but then you say, well, then they can't afford to pay. No. It's interesting.

1:09:27Ben Price: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It must be interesting to have cases that are out of the box that you can then sort of piece together and help people at the end of the day as well. Yeah. So after taking Olivia from her first£1 ,000 modelling job through an entire career, what are the three financial habits you wish every model and actor would adopt from day one?

1:09:49Robert Green: To get their affairs sorted out early and register for self-assessment to monitor their career and get proper financial advice during their career, both from an accountancy point of view and from the IFA's point of view, financial advisors, to make sure that they're building up income so that when they retire, they can have income to support them.

1:10:25Ben Price: Yeah. And what's the biggest mistake you see people in the creative industries make?

1:10:31Robert Green: Putting their head in the sand.

1:10:32Ben Price: and if someone listening is thinking i've been modeling or acting for years and to be honest my finances are a complete mess what's the first thing they should do uh seek help from an accountant

1:10:47Robert Green: from an accountant come to us because once we get stuck into it we can sort it out there may be penalties but at least it will get sorted out and at least they will have peace they will be back in

1:10:59Ben Price: control of the situation.

1:11:01Robert Green: A lot of these people can't sleep because they get too worried.

1:11:04Ben Price: Yeah, which is awful.

1:11:05Robert Green: We had one of my first clients was an artist and he keeps on going on walkabout. Actually, we had a tax inquiry. They said, Mr. So-and-so, why did you not do anything? He said, well, I didn't. I didn't. I couldn't face it. And we came to a deal with the taxman and he said, well, he said one figure. And then I said, look, this person just can't afford that. And then we got it reduced and we came to a settlement. And so it was all sorted out. About a week later, he got a commission for£50 ,000.

1:11:49Ben Price: Wow. Yeah. Okay. Which covered what he needed to pay?

1:11:53Robert Green: More than covered. Brilliant. Yeah.

1:11:55Ben Price: Robert and Ben, thank you so much. That's been so interesting. I feel like I learned a lot from this conversation. I think the message from all of us is make sure that you get an accountant on board when you first start this. You know, don't wait until you're in a muddle. Make sure you understand it. And hopefully, this conversation will sort of help people do that.

1:12:16Robert Green: Well, thanks for coming in. And it's been interesting to learn more from your side of it and what goes on.

1:12:27Ben Price: I think what's really interesting is that modelling isn't simply a job someone does at one point in their life. For many people it can sit alongside other jobs, other businesses, international travel, parenthood and eventually retirement and your financial circumstances change with every stage. Hopefully following Olivia through her imaginary career has helped make some of those things considerably easier to understand. Everyone's tax and financial circumstances are different, so this conversation is general information rather than individual tax advice. If you're unsure about your own circumstances, please speak to a suitably qualified accountant or tax advisor such as Green and Peter.

1:13:10Ben Price: Thank you for listening. We'll see you next time.