Erwan Moreau, Senior Agent at View Management

0:00Welcome to the Business of Modelling. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a family-run commercial model and talent agency established in 1975. In this podcast, I sit down with models, agents, brands, creatives and industry experts to talk about their careers, their experiences and the future of our industry. Today, we're recording in Barcelona with Erwan Moreau, Senior Agent at View Management. Owen has had a fascinating career in modelling. He was born in Ibiza, grew up between Ibiza and the south of France and came back to Barcelona in the early 90s. He started out helping in his family's restaurant where model agencies would come in and somehow fashion found its way into his life.

0:48He went from modelling himself to working at Traffic, then becoming part of the early view management story during what became a golden period for Spanish male models. So welcome to the podcast, Erwan. Thank you. What was your childhood like in those beautiful places? Well, I mean, it's just amazing. I mean, the childhood I had like to be on the countryside and we were going to a French school there because already at that time Ibiza was very international. But it was really an island. I mean, I remember from going to the airport to the city, it was only a countryside road with nothing on the sides.

1:31We had like, we were talking in Spanish and then also there was like the TV and speaking Catalan. So let's say that I had like the three language. So you were constantly hearing that from when you were a child. So I've been having like three languages naturally. We did like six years in France. And then in 1991, they came back to Barcelona because my family, they really wanted, they prefer Spain than France. Yeah, I started like maybe in summer, like my mom, I remember she broke her knee. And then I went into the restaurant working for a month. That time, so the restaurant was pretty famous. And then there was a lot of people from fashion, people from art, people from radio, from TV that were starting to go to the restaurant.

2:20And let's say that the only moments I had to see my dad and mom was to go and have lunch and dinner. So I was always going to the restaurant. We have a brand in England called Bowdoin. I don't know. Yeah, Bowdoin. Yeah, and it sounds like a Bowdoin catalogue, like your childhood. No, no, but it was amazing because also my grandfathers, they had like, they were really into art. So let's say that all the walls of the house, there were like paintings from the 50s, 60s, 70s. He was also always like when we were going to see grandfather, granddad, he was like, okay, do you know who is this artist? and then know, okay, you have to know.

3:08Great. So maybe I think maybe all that and... The education and the international background and things you had, you know, must shape the way that you now see people and culture. I think this is the thing. I think maybe I sort of had a sort of, not to see beauty, but like finding, you know, a sort of the aura. You know, when you find someone or when you see the pictures, you have to make a selection. Started to give you an eye. Yeah, maybe you have like a start. Yeah, exactly. Maybe you somehow, in a way of inconscience, you develop a sense. You start to know what is good. Yeah, maybe. How to identify.

3:49Because you don't really know why. Sometimes you say, why this picture is good. Yeah. You don't really know. No, you can't really explain why. No, exactly. You just know. Or why the small is better than the other. Yeah. And then it's just like, I don't know. I have the feeling of it.

4:06so you started modeling that was how you started in this industry so but you're not you're not very tall no i don't but you have a great look i'd love to represent you can i say it was like weird because so my my at the restaurant so there are like many agents that they were coming and then they were doing like all these um client dinners or model agency dinners with mothers and all that And then there was like always Eduardo was coming and then also Juan Carlos, who was also working at that time. So there was like Eduardo was at men division in traffic and Juan Carlos was taking care of the women's side.

4:42And basically, let's say. So you met them through the restaurant. Through the restaurant. With your parents having dinner. Yeah. And then being polite. Hello with all the clients. And then somehow, somehow also sometimes they were like coming at home. So my mom and she started to have like friendship with them. And somehow they were telling me, oh, why don't you try this? And then I said, oh, come on. I mean, I'm too shy to do this. And then also look at this. I mean, you have like guys like Marcus Schenkenberg, like Cameron. Just really confident. These guys, they're just like 190. You know, it was like in the 90s, like a man, a male model was huge.

5:22And one day I went to a show and I see all these guys. And my mom said, but look at this. It's so easy. I mean, you can get your money and do this. And I said, but okay, let's go. Let's go to the agency. And then I said, okay, but that's nothing is going to happen. I'm really too short. And then let's say that Eduardo was not really keen. And then it's funny. This was a traffic. Yeah, that was a traffic. And suddenly, because you're too short, you're too thin, it's not going to work, you know, in this era. And the thing is, Juan Carlos, he said, OK, but let's wait. Let's make a picture. So they took their Polaroid, you know, like used to be the old school, an analogic Polaroid, and they did a few shots.

6:04And then they just like saw the pictures. And I said, OK, we need to try this. And then I said, OK, why not? Yeah, so I signed with them and started to go to casting. And they were representing big models. Yeah, so, yeah, there was like, I tell you, So Marcus Schenken, I mean, all the internationals at that time. And then also like... They had Cameron. Yeah. Mark Vandalou. Yeah. And then in Spain also, they had like some of the best guys. That was like... And what did modeling teach you? First, to be in the place of the model. Empathy, you know? So I think this helped me to... I mean, all this period made me understand how a model feels when I've been feeling the same things.

6:50You know, when everything goes well and suddenly there is like a valet, you stop working, what's going on, what I'm going to do. Also, not to make the same mistakes that I did of like spending money on maybe the car or maybe... I bet they don't listen though. No, not too much. For some of them, they do. And no, and then also like also to keep control of your shyness, I would say, because I remember my first casting to go there. It was like, hell, what am I doing here? And suddenly I said, okay, you think you have to be like an actor. And then, okay, so you have to move on, change your mind. It's the same modeling as acting.

7:32It's the same. And so that was my first casting. And then I was like, it was like for Levi's casting. And then there was like the casting director. Okay, you have to imagine you have a window and then you are taking your pants. You need to put your shirt and T-shirt. And I was like, that's terrible. But somehow after I ended up doing a show like for Antonio Miro and then I was like, but I'm so short. Why am I doing a show? But they took me. How tall are you? Well, I'm 79. Okay, 59. Yeah. I mean, normally like we sign guys like 188, 186, 184 is like limit you know and below that I mean you go I mean I was more commercial guy you know but but but I've been doing some shows here it was funny even in Paris so I had to to to learn how to control myself and and play the game a little bit of also take out this shy part and and and be professional and thank you for having me here and and all these things and then And the more you do, the more experience you get and the more confident you become.

8:44It's that. Yeah, no. And then it was, but I always felt a little bit uncomfortable. It was just like. Was never your comfort zone being in front of the camera? No, but I was like, yeah, I didn't, I like it, I think. But also I could have done better, but I was kind of also settled in staying here. I was a little bit afraid of, not afraid, but reluctant to travel. And then you have to travel as a model. If not, I mean, you can be here and be local, but you are new, so you're going to work. But there was a moment that somebody is going to be after you, is going to be the newer. And then you're going to, yeah, people is going to see you too much in advertising or in different castings.

9:32So your time goes away. So you have to then move on and go to other markets. But I didn't really want it to. Also, I started dating my wife, who is now. So I understand also... You didn't want that lifestyle, really, of just having to get on a plane and going wherever at short notice. Yeah. That's not something I wanted to happen in my life. And then I was like, OK, I like it, but I don't like it. Sure. So tell us some of the jobs you did do. I used to be booked a lot for Recording Less, which is like a big department store here in Spain. And then also there was one, like it was Springfield. And then that was wide because I was suddenly waiting at the bus to go to the university.

10:18And then people was looking at me. And then I was like, why are they looking at me? And then I looked back and there was like a huge poster of myself. I was there and then I was, okay. That's funny. So mom and mom was proud. My grandmother was like, oh my God. And you were like a bit embarrassed. Yeah. So, but it was funny. Yeah. And then it's, it's weird because, you know, normally you think like, oh, models, you know, they have to be the popular guy from the, from the school, like the handsome guy and all that with the super body. And then I was like the contrary of that, you know.

10:59you were offered a role as an assistant yes traffic on the men's division yeah no so exactly so so a lot of um let's say young people will absolutely don't understand this at the booking table there was like a sort of um place where they had like the calendar were printed or even handwritten and then with colors. Yeah, so all the bookers would sit around a round table, wouldn't they? And in the middle would be the calendars and the information for all of the models. Yeah, exactly. So when a model was coming in, you had to create her details and the calendar by month. And then you had to written with a pencil the options.

11:43Yeah, so you can crop it out. Yeah, you can erase it. Yeah. And then using red when she's booked or he's booked and all that. And then, so let's say that they were starting to make the transition from analog to digital with new softwares. Like I think at that time it was Model Wire. I think it was called. And the thing is just like they were like, oh, well, I heard in a conversation they wanted to maybe hire or look for someone. And I said, okay, listen, I don't want to travel. Yeah, I prefer to have stabilized income. Also, we know each other for many years now. And then I speak different languages and can help you with the computers things.

12:25And listen, we can try. And Eduardo said, OK, let's try. You were still able to model at the start? I stopped because I thought it wasn't nice towards the other models from the agency that I had an inside vision of what's happening. and maybe people could think, because also there is something I'm going to say, that a lot of models think that as agents, we can just book them. Yeah, I know. And that's not the case at all, you know, because we can always push, we can always suggest to the client and say, listen, look at her, look at him. He has done all these jobs lately that they are going to come out.

13:08But the final words are always into the clients. Absolutely. I do. And models sometimes, I think, think that you've got your favorites and you only book them. And it's not like that. As an agent, you want to get everybody work. Exactly. I mean, when you sign someone at the agency, you all want them to succeed. Absolutely. You know, so and then that's something that sometimes and then it's funny because sometimes you have like not everything, not every moment is going well. And sometimes you have like, not discussions, but you have like talks about what can I do as a model or what can we do? And then suddenly options are coming and jobs are coming.

13:47And then they say, you see, if we wouldn't have had this conversation, I wouldn't be now working. And then you say, OK, but it's just like a sort of luck, you know, that happened this right now. but it feels that with the complaint, they work. A model and an agency relationship is a partnership. It's not one person that's in control of the other or one person working for the other. The thing from my side is like at the beginning, we have to take control of that. And then we have to guide them because they know nothing about this industry. But after a point, I mean, we are teamwork. And then also one thing also is that we work for our models.

14:27I mean, they are not working for the agency. Yeah. When you were agency side, was that something you immediately enjoyed? Somehow I was going well. You know, it was great because I knew all the models from all the castings. I was speaking my different languages. And then at that time, also with the bookers, there were my bookers. So it was very easy to just like work there. And then I wanted to learn from the inside. And then Eduardo at this time was, I mean, he was really the best agent in the men's world and Juan Carlos in the women's side. And so they then left you. How long had you been at traffic at that point?

15:11That was like between, I think that was like, I started, I think it was 2001 as being inside as an assistant. And then, yeah, in 2002, they opened the agency. Now it's like turning 25 years. So those two who were directors of traffic left traffic to open up for you. Yeah, exactly. They opened. So what do you remember about that time? That must have been a bit termulous. It was crazy because now, but the thing is, well, I mean, time has been away now. Let's say it was crazy because they left and then I was like during some, I had a contract also. I couldn't say, okay, I'm leaving. I knew I had to go with them because they gave me the opportunity to work there also as a model.

15:56And suddenly I was like kind of offered to stay at traffic as head booker. And I said, but that's impossible. You know, I've been like a year. Not ready, yeah. I'm not ready to do this. And then also, I mean, there's no way I can stay here. You know, it's just like I'm very loyal and I've been taking this opportunity. Then they told me, OK, come back. I mean, come with us. And then I said sorry to the owner of traffic and he understood. And so I left and then we started this new, yeah, it was the beginning of a great moment. Eduardo Saez has always been your mentor. Yes, he was. I mean, what made him such an important figure in your career?

16:37Well, the thing is just like Eduardo was really, at that time, Eduardo and Carlos were really, they were like having all the connections with all the clients. They were also very, let's say, PR. They knew how to handle the clients having fun. And when they knew someone, they knew how to make him laugh and all that, which is, I think unique also because it's not, I mean, you can be very professional, but also you have to have this feeling with the client and photographers and stylists. And this is like something that is even more, sometimes more important than rather do your work. He was also very good, let's say, asking for high fees, you know, and then he was like, also, you know, if we sell a price, we don't go down.

17:29And then if the client doesn't want to pay, then he looks for somebody else, And you were mother agency to some big names at that time in the early 2000s. Tell me about that, who you looked after. Yeah, so in a way it was like kind of normal to us because I was lucky with the team we had with Eduardo, Matteo, Cristian and I. We were the four of us like working for the best agencies at this moment. So it was very normal to have all the big names signing with you at this time. And everybody wanted to come with us. It was crazy because we were having, I tell you, like Marv Vandelou. There was like Shannin Tatum who became actor, Boyd Gates.

18:16There was like Alex Lundquist, all the guys. I mean, it was funny because you had a client, for example, he was sending us, Oh, tell me, I've seen in the Vogue this new fragrance, Larry Scott, Acqua di Gio. And then, for example, imagine, I say, you have the client shows you, he comes to the agency and with the campaign, I say, who is this guy? And then we were like, OK, don't worry, we're going to find out. So we were like sending like faxes, you know, at the end to an agency in New York or like we were like doing. Because you didn't have social media at that point. No, and then there was very internet, like the scanners were horrible.

18:59Yeah, they take ages to go through. Yeah, and then this is why also we were like so powerful at the end. And then the markets, everybody, all the agencies, I think they were like much more working together because there was no internet. So let's say nobody knew the clients from its country. So if you wanted your model to work, the New York agencies or the American agencies had to place the models in Spain because we were going to make them contracts for them. And then as well as the Parisian agencies had to place in Spain in order to make their model work. So and then also as we were like only maybe three, four, I mean, there were four agencies that was at that time in Spain.

19:42And then we were really the ones specialized in the men division. Yeah. So we had like all the top guys. And so it was unusual then, I guess, for a Spanish agency to have that much international influence. Yeah, it was like, yeah, it was crazy. I mean, and then the thing, what happened is just like due to all this. And then we started finding our own big guys like John Kay, Andres Belencoso, Javier de Miguel, Oriol El Cacho. Oriol, he's still working today for Ralph Lauren. And basically what happened is just like these three guys were placed with Wilhelmina. And the thing is, just like Eduardo was kind of the same manager as Sean Patterson.

20:23And then it was like, and then we were talking, I don't know, like 10 times a day at this time. So we were like sending all these all our Spanish boys to New York. And then they were doing so well, working with all the best photographers, the best clients. And then so we were like taking part of like creating them. Because also when there was like maybe a Spanish model who was like starting to go well, the chart was being handled or was being held by New York or Paris. And let's say that the Spanish agency, the mother agency was losing control a little bit of what was happening. But Eduardo had the vision to, no, no, we have to keep control from here.

21:06And that's so important, actually, because they did used to do that. those big agencies used to take the chart and suddenly you couldn't get options and then you lost control. Yeah, no. And then also you lose the day by day and maybe also... And then also what they used to do is they used to try and buy the models. So they'd offer the models a big sum to come to them and leave the first agency. Yeah, that's happening sometimes that if you lose control of the day by day options and the communication, then sometimes it's just like okay why do I need you you know if Paris is doing and that's why it's so important that relationship with the mother agency with their models isn't it it is I mean it's basically I mean it's like first mandatory it's just like communication and I mean I always say to them it's just like you're going to talk more with me or with your agent at the agency than your family you know so we have to know what you do, how you feel what are your goals into this and communication.

22:12Yeah, and this job, there's no limits. No, and it's short notice. We need to know straight away, otherwise it goes to someone else. Yeah, it was terrible because I remember, for example, Andres Belenco, so he used to start loving scuba diving and he was like, he was traveling all over the world. And again, it was difficult to keep in contact then because there were no mobile phones like there are now. But at the very beginning when I was modeling, it was terrible. Terrible. There was no phone at all, no mobile phone. So we used to have the rule that the model had to call the agency at least four or five times a day from a street.

22:48To get their castings from a phone box. Yeah, from a phone box. Yeah, they had to do it. But then Nokia started to do all this. Yeah. And then also like Blackberry. Yeah, Blackberry then suddenly arrived. And then I remember one season in Milan or we went to New York and then there was like the Wilhelmina team. They were like with the Blackberries. And I said, oh, shit, now I will have to receive emails at 10 o 'clock in the night with big options from New York. I will have to be, let's say, available, you know. Yeah. I mean, when you are just starting, you can have your nine to five and you forget about the job.

23:24But the more you climb, the more you have to be available. I had something only two, three weeks ago. We had our health and safety visit, our six monthly, and she came around and she had to measure the distance to the nearest fire exit from every point in the building. And she had to do all sorts of things that tell us we had to have a sticker on a ladder. All this sort of thing. I guess it's the same. Yes. They have like some safety instructions. Yes. When it came back, at the top, she said everything else was fine. At the top, there was this bright red urgent, needs urgent attention. And it said, I can't remember the exact wording, but I experienced incredibly high stress in the office.

24:09And I phoned, I went, my God, I said, what happened? Well, of course, she was working. She was measuring whatever she was measuring in a room, meeting room, sort of opposite. And I think a model hadn't got to a casting. And then, you know, just the normal day-to-day things that happen. But I thought actually that, yeah, I guess for a normal person doing a nine to five job that just sort of ticks their boxes and then goes home, it is a stressful job, isn't it? You have to be able to, you have to thrive on that. I think if you're not a person that can thrive on that, then you will hate it like it's not for you.

24:44For sure. I mean, 200 percent, that is very stressful. and then I wish I could have put into this time different ways to manage my stress the way I do now. You ask the models that they have to be available all the time. So if you manage them, you have to be the same. But the thing is just like at some point also when you manage, when they're starting to be big, big, big, it's Sunday. Yeah, and you don't get the call sheet until 10 o 'clock at night or something. Exactly. You have to forward it. You have to double check everything is fine. The models also, they are flying on a Sunday, on a Saturday.

25:20They are going to LA. Now we have, for example, a girl, she's going to Colombia. She left on Saturday. And yeah, I have to be there and say, okay, are you okay? Everything is fine. Because if something goes wrong, I mean, they must be able to call someone. I mean, if they are in a desperate situation or something is going, the plane is late or is going to be delayed for a few days because these long distances, it happens. that sometimes. Yeah, of course. Or there is a problem with the visa that I remember when I'm being young, it was a nightmare that happened a few times. It's just like, so you have to be there.

25:56So it's very stressful because sometimes you just want to throw your phone off and you can't.

26:09So the thing is just like I started as an assistant and I was doing my work and Eduardo or somehow find it that I was doing my work properly. And he gave me the chance to still climb and to progress. And I said, okay, let's go, come with me to the shows. And this is where I started to see all these agents that I was talking all the time by phone so many times a day to meet them in person and to do all this PR and meet all these photographers and all these agents and see all these big name models. And then also we were doing casting there. We were going for scouting and see who else was going to be represented by us.

26:51And then we were doing all this. So we were spending four or five days in Milan, Paris, New York, going to New York. And then also it was really great because we had this super nice relationship between Viu and Wilhelmina, between the main divisions. And then we were like doing the dinners and with Sean and Greg. And it was really great. And like, it was a good time. And then it was also, you know, because sometimes you know the agent is great, but you don't have the feeling, you know, but we were like really, really, you know. Yeah, connected. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And do you think, I mean, do you think the International Agency Network is, was more relationship led then?

27:34But I think so, because I tell you, because I think this is due because there was no internet. So let's say that all these agencies, they really had to place their model in Spain so they could work. So that's why we had all these amazing talents. Nowadays, with an email... That must be frustrating now that they just go direct to the client. Yeah, but that's funny because I'm going to say something. A lot of agencies, they say, oh, we don't want to place our models in Spain because it's a secondary market or blah, blah, blah, blah. But here... You've got massive brands here. Yeah, of course. But then what's happening is just like, no, we don't want to place your models.

28:10But then, yeah, they tell, no, it's a secondary market, but then they are opening here. You have like all the big networks of agencies that they are opening in Barcelona or they are in Madrid. So, I'm sorry for the business if I say something, but it's just like, I mean, if we are so secondary, why are you opening all these offices? Absolutely. But also, they don't understand the market, do they? that you guys have been. But the thing also, I mean, it's whatever. We are a free market, you know, it's just like, also, I think there are so many, so many models. And also, Spain has grew up a lot and we are very strong.

28:48Yeah, we have like a big, well, Inditex, Mango, like Cortingles, Cortefier. Yeah, so all these brands, they are here and then a lot of people want to work with them. It's normal. And then also at some points when we were, Like at this peak moment of view, our boss was deciding also to book into Germany and to other clients. And then it was like, yeah, kind of aggressive. Germany used to be a massive market, didn't it, for the catalogs? Yeah, exactly. I remember, yeah, models that were going there every week, working, but the same way that now Spain has gained that. You know, we have like models that are coming every week.

29:30Yeah, your e-com here is, yeah. Yeah, for Zara, for Massimo Dutti. Yeah. We have like very strong clients. At the end of the day, it's true that also before we used to be, yeah, four agencies here. There was like the established agencies in UK, in Paris and in Milan and in New York. But also, let's say all the agencies have started to grow a lot, like new agencies also. And then everybody needs to also have incomes, I guess, and revenues. And so that's why they say, okay. And then also for maybe also if you have like a really top, top girl or top boy, maybe you don't want to place your model in Spain because you only want them to work for just a few clients.

30:13So, okay. And also these clients, they are working everywhere now. Yeah. Like some years ago, it was different and now we have to adapt and that's it. And then we also have to keep the relationship because at the end of the day, also when you find a model, you want to keep them represented in all these big markets also. But let's say that it's like this. So there's nothing to complain about it and just work and just do it the better, you know, and competition makes you be better somehow.

30:46This episode is brought to you by Digital Twin Sets. Digital Twin Sets provides professionally created digital asset packs of real models and actors for responsible AI-assisted production. Every twin set represents a real person created with consent, approval and control over how their likeness is used. To find out more, head over to Instagram at Digital Twin Sets. You've mentioned two big wow moments in your career. Can you tell us about those? Yeah, but that was funny. I mean, we used to have a lot of big moments because suddenly you get represented. Like, I don't know, I remember this Travis female, he was Australian, now he's an actor.

31:31And Travis was coming from Australia to LA and he was like this guy who got like an exclusive contract for a carving claim. And then we were like signing this kind of guys. We were like, oh, wow, this is great. But now talking about really, I mean, it's great to have your models from abroad working. But when you have modern agency boys that they are confirmed for huge jobs and from Barcelona, that was crazy. And so the two wow moments are one is like booking Oriol El Cacho for Bulgari Fragrance, the Aqua. that was a casting that was worldwide. And then so they were looking like for a Greek statue boy, like with a weird, with a personality with a nose.

32:21And so we said, okay, Oriol, you have to go to this casting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the thing is just like we find out that Oriol didn't want to do the casting. And they're like, what the hell? How can you don't go to this casting? And he was like, but just like all the world that's disgusting, I mean, they are not going to take me. They said, yeah, but I mean, you have to go. They have to take someone. Yeah, it's just like you have to play the lottery. If you don't play, you're not going to win. So somehow we got, yeah, they really wanted to see material of him. So I said, listen, we have to do something and come to the agency.

32:58And then I'm going to record the video. and I'm going to do your casting myself. And then, okay, watch the mood board of the story. So it's like typical fragrance one, you know, body and then to dive into the water. And then, so at that time we were like using, okay, so all these digital cameras that they were like the maximum resolution was five megapixels. So it was the little ones, the thin ones. And then I said, okay, let's go. You know, we have this, let's do whatever. So I remember laying down on the floor so I could have like the perspective of him diving. And so basically, yeah, he got the option.

33:38We started negotiating and he got confirmed. And then I was like, wow, what the hell just happened here? Just like, I mean, booking a fragrance for one of your models, mother agency is like the dream, you know, it was good money. I mean, at that time he was already doing very good shows. He was doing like, Bananas used to represent him in Paris. And then they were doing very good jobs also. Wilhelmina. And yeah, and then it's... But you see, I think that again, and I keep coming back to this, that that's the difference between an agent and just a booker. You know, you're not just sitting waiting for something to come in and then putting...

34:20Yeah, exactly. You're actually, you went and got him that. You know, you could have just gone, oh, he hasn't gone to the casting. Yeah, exactly. I could have said, okay, well, stupid. I mean, okay, that's your life. Let's go for something else. But also I had, okay, there is now a request that they want him. You know, we have to do our way. I could have recorded this also. What's your name? Hello, my name is Oriol. These are my profiles. Yeah, but they get hundreds of. Yeah, but I said, okay, I need to give the client a sort of... Something that they can see him in that commercial. Yeah, so my job is to make the best of what I have, you know.

34:51And then I had like, okay, so there was like this coach. I said, just like jump on the coach, just try to dive without falling on me. And then it was funny. And then the following year, we got the call. I said, okay, the fragrance is going super well and we just want to renew. And then, okay, great. So it's going to be same price, plus 10 % of renovation. And then I called Oriol. Hey, what's happening? I think he was in a birthday. And then I was like, oh, okay, I'm here in a birthday. He said, okay, but then you're going to be happy. Sit down. and at best moments, you know, he said, you're going to go on a second year strike.

35:29And then he was like, oh, what the hell? Thank you. And then so this one was great. And also another one with also in fragrance. It was like with that was we were not mother agency, but it was like Michael Gotster. He was like a fireman and he was like from Austria. And then we started to represent him and we got some amazing digital underwear. super body. And then at this time, we started to have some great, let's say, database. And we sent it to Mario Testino's assistant. And we are working on the fragrance. And I say, okay, let's go. Tell me. And then, oh, this is the Versace fragrance. Yeah, we find him interesting.

36:14And then, yeah, we started negotiating and he got confirmed also. By Mario Testino. Yeah. And then it was one of his first jobs. And then I was like, what the hell just happened? here and then we were like really at that time it was not common at all to book all these jobs from Spain and and yeah and then in a way it also we were respecting a lot everybody's placement and all that but let's say that Eduardo started to be ambitious. Right okay and perhaps not playing by the rules. Exactly kind of and and the thing here a little bit this is like when when a bit things changes and then he decided, I think this is my personal opinion.

36:53I mean, he passed away a few years, so there's nothing, I mean, yeah, we cannot. He can't fire you. Yeah, no, no, but we can't, no, but let's say that, yeah, I mean, I can't really, we can't really know his fully point of view, you know, but this is mine. But it was hard because, yeah, I mean, he decided to split with Juan Carlos and he wanted to run models that were like a woman division also. And then I think it was because he wanted to more and more and more. Right, so he wanted to then split Vue up, did he? But he, that was in his head, you know, but my personal thing is just like, we were like really at the most highest point you could be, but he wasn't happy with that.

37:41Exactly, and then he wanted more. Because you said that Vue was booking almost all of the men's editorials for Spanish Esquire. Yeah, that was, I mean, yeah, exactly. This is an example. Around 75 % of the men's shows. Yeah, so at that time, we really had like the men division was... Was with you. Yeah, yeah, it was like crazy. We were like booking everything, you know, and then we had like all the mothers wanted to be with us. So this is also something that due to all this successful, of the work we were doing, there was one thing that we were lacking of, is that we didn't have the need to go on the street and scout.

38:20Scout, because people were just coming in to you. So this is something that I had to learn this. I wanted to learn this also somehow. And then it was, yeah, so this is like, because nowadays I think it's very important that when you teach someone, is that also the job is not to be seated on the chair, but is to go outside and find the people. something that I would have to apply myself to more. But it's true that we are like another generation and then it's not easy to, when you are used to work a certain way to do it. But this is something we all have to do much more, I think. But it's time. It's not easy.

39:01And also to... But I think you see people when you're not expecting it. No, of course not. And you're kind of out and you're suddenly, you know. But sometimes you see someone and then you... As I have a lot of empathy, Sometimes I have, I am afraid of... Of approaching in case they're then not as nice as you thought they were. No, of maybe, yeah, maybe you approach them, but maybe it's not going to happen. You see with the team, you make the pictures and, oh, I'm sorry, I was wrong. Yeah, then you feel really bad. Yeah, because suddenly... Because you've got them in. It's like, oh, wow, I'm going to be a model.

39:33Look at this. Oh, I'm going to sign with this agency. It's crazy. And then suddenly you have to say, oh, sorry, no, it's not going to work. So I have to have it so, so clear to stop someone.

39:52Did you then go on to the women's division with Juan Carlos? No. So when this happened... You went back to traffic? No, as I was on the men's division. Yeah. So Eduardo created what is called Sight now. And Juan Carlos, let's say, kept the name of Vue. Juan Carlos, who was on Vue Women, then he started doing men. And Eduardo, who used to be doing men, he was doing women. After some times, maybe I was starting to tell openly my thoughts about different decisions. And then, yeah, so yeah, I stopped. Then I went to traffic. But after some point also, the market was really starting to be difficult.

40:36But after a bit, also there were like some changes in Wilhelmina. Everything got a little bit under different waves of movements in the industry. And let's say that also internet came in and basically the agencies started not to make placements for their big models in Spain. So only a few were really working. Okay. So when you had all these boards that used to have like, I don't know, 300 guys, like 300 girls. And then, yeah, suddenly you see also clients, they don't make goingsies anymore. No. Because there was, when you wanted to bring models into town for castings, for development, yeah, making them appointments in order to try to get them work.

41:25Then suddenly all this is gone. So there was no point. Yeah, when you bring them in, you want them to be busy. Yeah, exactly. But then suddenly it becomes like, oh, please do me a favour to see him because there's nothing in the chart. So suddenly I was like, OK, I'm used to work with the big clients here in Spain. I feel that I don't really have the right models to give food to these clients, let's say. And also you've worked in an agency in all different aspects, like you started off at the bottom, you know, so you know exactly how it all runs. Exactly. So it makes sense. Yeah, no. And then also because I was, I used to, because here you can have like all the, yeah, we have all these Inditex brand and Mango and Carina Eda and all these things.

42:06But also there is like the TV commercials there, but I was more onto this fashion high-end market. I was starting to see that even at the end of site and all these things, I was saying that, okay, only really a bunch of models are really working on direct bookings. So I need to kind of take out all the energy that requires bringing models, having an apartment, taking care of the day by day. And then I said, OK, if I only want to be still working with all these best clients, I need to reduce the board and work with this. And somehow everything was put together to take this decision. So R1 was the agency that you started.

42:54Yeah, it was the right moment because let's say that there was this feeling that we need to really have. I really want to focus on a little group of models to work with the best clients. That's it. And the thing is also there was like something quite important when you open an agency. It's like the accounting because I have no clue about accounting. And then also I cannot give this to anybody that I don't trust. So luckily there was like Marisa, she used to work at Sight and View many, many, many years. And also she decided to change at some point and she decided to open her administrative agency that was specialized on models in agencies.

43:35And then that was like, okay, I had it clear. And then also it was, I think, great move because I didn't, that mean that I just have to pay a monthly fee to this company rather than have like a team inside the company. Yeah, to do it. And then also any kind of questions, I have someone who specializes in the business, who understands which forms you need to apply for the models to not to pay double taxes here and all this. And yeah, and then it was super easy because I already had some models, they followed me. And let's say that from the day one, I was already working with the clients I've been always working with.

44:08And so this is also when I started doing women, because also at some point I was like at the peak of my career as men. And I said, what can I do else? So, yeah, what's the difference between representing women and men, did you find? Well, first, I mean, there was like the fees are completely different. But let's say that it's more difficult. I mean, you have to, I mean, for example, if I have to visualise you and make a change of look, I mean, for a man, you just shave and then that's too much. But with a girl, I mean, there are so many different things you can do. So let's say that also the great point about the agency we were like creating is just like we were all good at different points.

44:43So there was like Marisa, okay, she's like doing the economy. But let's say that from my side, I'm more executive. I'm more being on the table. I'm more being like pushing the clients, like being with the model when they need something, have empathy with them, be with them, listen to them. But then also sorting out any problems. Yeah, exactly. You know, these problems also that can appear. Okay, I'm like doing this. And Ibrahim and Tamara, they were like much more about the creativity. So it was great because on my own, I would never have had an agency. It's too crazy. I mean, you have to really have passion about it.

45:18I mean, I have passion about it, but I don't have this extra that makes you really stop the right people and have the patience. You know, when we opened the agency also, we've been to the music festivals, Primavera Sound. We've been to Sonar. we've been like crossing I don't know maybe 60 ,000 people in three days there was no one to scout yeah it's I mean when you want to go that level it's super high it's not easy sometimes you just like sign one person after looking at hundreds of and then it's kind of crazy level I think you know we're a commercial agency and we we have a lot of kind of unique faces and and things but so people kind of think, oh, anyone can be a model now.

46:04And it's not true. I mean, even scouting for us, you could, you know, yeah, same. We could go to three festivals and we might find two people. They have to still be really special and really stand out and really memorable. They're not just your average person walking down the street. But sometimes I do feel that anyone can be a model. No, but even sometimes we got like, when we, I don't know, I see who are like the new models that are doing the shows and who could be interesting and sometimes I just like I think well you can't see so edgy so I mean it's it's great I mean they have the height and also it's great because also they said that the industry has given the chance to a lot of people that was not able to get into this world definitely 20 years ago yeah so maybe this is also my vision that I'm used to to have a kind of beauty that is more like the old way yeah exactly you know so it's it's and then for me it's difficult to when there is someone who's so edgy.

47:01You can't understand. No, but this is great that being at Vue, we are a team and then we are now, it's not only one who's taking care about the scouting, that we are four of us. Yeah, yeah. And then we have Adrienne. He's like the director of the Madrid office and he has the eye for the weird girls or the weird edgy model. We do that all the time. And there's 10 on the booking desk where I am. All the time I'm going, wow, I love this person. And they're just going, nah. Or I'll go, oh, I don't see that. And then next thing they've booked a big campaign. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, it happened. I mean, when I get back to you and then there was like, there was a girl, okay, she's, I don't know.

47:39And then she got booked for the Carolina Herrera show in Madrid. It was massive. And there was a girl, Alende, also she's a little bit weird, but she's like doing some things. She got signed in Paris with the face and then it's great.

47:57What did owning an agency teach you that being an employee never could? Well, if before I had to be 24 hours taking care of the models with the agency, you have to take care of your models, but take care of the agency itself. Also, maybe it's not about leading. It's like I'm used to do everything by myself. I have this problem. It's just like when I start booking, I go from A to Z. You like to have control. Yeah. And then I do my flights. I send the details to the models. It's difficult for you to delegate to somebody else to trust that somebody else will do it. It's not. Like you do. But it's just like I feel that I know everything.

48:35Yeah. And then I'm not missing any kind of things. But I have to give the opportunity to all these practice girls or practice boys that they are coming, that they have to teach. And then if they don't do it quite right, you're like, oh. But it's, yeah, no, and then, yeah, this is my, maybe it's a good thing or a bad thing, but yeah, I'm used to work like this. It's difficult to let it handle to others. Yeah. But so working with women, so one of your big moments at Arwan was discovering Day Bays. It was like also a great moment because, I mean, so I was like, OK, now we need to find people. And then it was a nice story because, I mean, Dai, she just moved to Dominican Republic, to Terraza, which is like a city which is like behind Barcelona.

49:20And somehow I saw her on a picture and then I've been able to reach her and I said, hey, what do you think about being a model? And she trusted us and she trusted also the way we wanted her to be developed and working on her body. And then it was great that after some time, we introduced her to, I think it was Zerli Turkan and she got the Miu Miu show. Then she was not high. So maybe this is one of the reasons maybe she didn't do that many shows, but she did Trussardi. She was in Milan. And then let's say that having this girl who was coming from Dominican Republic and started to go to Paris, to go to Milan, then she spent her quarantine with the lockdowns in Tokyo, she was at that time.

50:07Yeah, she was supposed to go there for one month. She stayed six. But she had the best time, I think. So providing all these moments to models is great. And that must have made you realise that you could scout women at the highest level as well. At that point, yeah. But I'm always scared, kind of. But it gave me also that I've been able to do it. From day one, let's say the agency was going very well. And then we started, it was October 2017. So we already have some positive incomes. And then what was great about this agency stuff and adventure is that I never asked for a loan at the bank. When I had the money, I said, hey, mothers, you have your money.

50:48I don't want to have your money into my account. You know, that's not my money. So I just want to have mine and that's it. Because sometimes it's kind of crazy. It's very easy that things can go wrong or, you know, it's not my money. I don't want to have it. In the UK, we have to have a separate client account. This is great, kind of. But I think lots of agencies, you still hear of agencies going bust and then they don't pay the model. So I don't know. But there are some stories. Yeah, it's not. So, and the thing is, yeah, so Air One was, the agency was working on having a few models that were like from abroad and having the right Chinese girls, the right American girls to work with Inditex.

51:28So Zara, Massimoliti, Mango. And let's say that we had all these boys and girls working every week. Yeah, so COVID arrived and everybody had to stay at home. So no travels and no models here that could be able to work. So it was fine to hold the situation because we had an amazing year. I mean, the previous year was really amazing. So there was, we had like a good balance in the agency. So let's say that this made us, we couldn't maybe work for a year that there was money enough to have the agency covered with the expenses and all that. But let's say that then suddenly, you know, oh, the models can now work and they can travel.

52:15And then suddenly all the clients wanted to book the same girls. So they were not available. So it was starting to get so frustrating to have money that we had like jobs with thousands. Well, not thousands, but yeah, but yeah, but yeah, thousands of euros on the table ready to confirm. But they couldn't be available. Yeah. Or maybe when everything was okay, then second lockdown. So all this was starting to create a lot of anxiety. I was anxious. And then I was starting to lose faith. I was starting to lose the energy. And then you cannot push your models to be happy when you are not. So one of my escapes was driving.

53:01So I went during one of these lockdowns. I think that was in August 2021. I took the bike and then I went to Cape North. I went for a month of travel. My wife, she was working. I said, listen, if I don't do this now, I will never do it. And when I came back, I was like, I don't know what to do. I was locked in the office, frustrating that things could not be happened. I was seeing everything dark. I was not negative, but this is a little bit pointless. What to do? I don't know. When you get into this sort of mood and now I look back, yeah, I mean, you have to, yeah, you cannot work properly. And then you eventually left.

53:44So I said at some point, I said, listen, I need to, I was starting already when I came back from the travel. I said, I think if I'm not positive about myself and the way of working with having my own business, I mean, I cannot share this feeling with the clients and the models. I mean, or I was doing it, but it was causing me like a sort of, you know. It was very strict. You were anxious. Yeah, because with you, I could be very like this. Okay, let's go positive like this. But at the end, from inside, I was feeling really, really the opposite. And then suddenly this. I think, you know, I do think everybody that owns or has their own business does feel like that from time to time.

54:25I think that's kind of normal. And it is difficult. So suddenly they said that the savings of the company were not so big. And then I said, okay, I have to go because if I leave, I need to put, let's say I cannot leave the agency with under balance, you know, negative money. Or let's say I don't want this because it's going to cause me more stress. And then I don't want to ask for loans. I don't want to, you know, if everything has been fine at the beginning, it can be fine now. So I really put a lot of energy on putting things like equal. Getting it to a good place. Yeah, exactly. But you knew you needed to go and do something else.

55:03I needed to stop. And then that's something I was talking to my mom. And then I said, but are you crazy? Which job are you going to do that is so great? And I said, yeah, but it's great, but I'm not feeling great. You know, it's also how I feel. I can, I can, someone, I mean, you can be feeling bad during months, you can have some slowdowns and, but this was going down. You knew that this wasn't right. And then I was, and then everybody, oh, you can't stop. And then I was feeling really a little bit of pressure. And then also, but sometimes at the end of the day, I said, okay, now I put the agency back, everything is okay.

55:43And then all the lockdowns were finished. And that must have been tempting once you got back there to think, oh, it's okay now, I'll carry on. But you knew that. No, yeah, but that's the thing. No, because the thing is just like I've lost so many agency. I'm not feeling good. Everything now is back to normal, let's say. Yeah. But I don't have the energy to put again 200 % on making this happen back before. After you left, that must have been a bit like a weight come off your shoulders, like you were a bit relieved. It was terrible because I really love Eduardo and I, Eduardo, Ibrahim and Tamara.

56:21They were so nice in this project. And I know we were like the best to keep going. But the thing is just like, yeah, I wasn't feeling myself well. So, and then when you are like this, so many, so many months, I mean, I don't, I mean, I was seeing like the precipice, you know, and the abyss. And then I said, okay, I don't, I don't want to go darker in my life, you know? So I said, okay, I'm going to stop and let's see what happens. I cannot control everything. See, actually, we talk a lot about wellbeing for models, don't we? But actually, I wonder if, do you think there's enough support for agents?

57:00for because it is a very stressful career it is um but yeah that's something okay i never thought about it and but it's true that if you are if we are helping the models to let's say that our our job is to take care of them of themselves to guide them to eat well to have a great um you know body by doing great exercises in view for example we have like something like a training lab yeah um Let's say that when we sign a model, they make a blood sample. They analyze what's their body type. So they are doing personal, let's say, training about their nutrition based on their cellular, based on their body.

57:46Because when you tell a girl or a boy, a girl, maybe it's more like accurate because they are so young that when you tell them, okay, you have to be in shape. the easiest thing is to stop eating, you know, but we don't want this at all. We want our models to be healthy and mentally healthy. So we have this amazing company that is like taking care of the girls this way. And when we sign each of them, they go there and then they make this test and then they are going to help them develop good habits and all that. But it's true. Maybe you should do that with the agents as well. Yeah, because also when I remember when I was traveling so much with Eduardo and you were going on.

58:35Yeah, I mean, you were like starting your day at 10, but you were finishing maybe at 3 a.m. because you were doing all the appointments. Then you had to go to dinners. Then you have to go sometimes to say hello to someone in a party. But so you finally make four, three days. And then after you have to come back at the agency, spending the weekend in Milan. And maybe I love all these fancy things. It's great to be a nice hotel. But it still takes it out of you. But it's also, I'm an employee, so I need to have my time with my personal life, my wife, or maybe I prefer to be with my wife rather than to be at the Bulgari hotel with the models and my boss, you know.

59:22we expect to be working from Monday to Friday as agents no or we can be online Saturday Sunday but suddenly you have to tell your boy or girl okay Monday you're in Paris Tuesday you go to milan then you're going to go to uk then okay you have to wait then you go to la and then from la you're going to back to paris and then for the next two weeks then after maybe you go to tokyo and then maybe you go to buenos aires and then you end up shooting in bahamas or so imagine you have to have your suitcase with summer clothes winter clothes because you don't know which hemisphere or which part of the world you're going to go and then you're going to be alone waiting at the airports, waiting for the driver.

1:00:05And you might miss birthdays with your family, occasions. And so there's a lot of loneliness into this, you know, you have to try to handle that. And then also when we see all these options coming in and, oh, this is super fancy, but would you do all these travels the models do during maybe a month? Yeah, yeah. Would you? And I think an agent needs to understand that because it's all very well going, well, they can do this, they can do that. And then you think, well, hang on a minute, then when are they actually going to sleep? You know, you've got them going from here to here to here to here.

1:00:40So that's why sometimes... They're going to be exhausted and they're not going to look good. So that's why sometimes when they are overseas and depends on the level and we ask business classes, not because it's for fancy or it's nice. No, because so they can sleep. Exactly. You can lay down and sleep a little bit. I mean, this is like when you go high level, you know. But sometimes also it's like the moment. Yeah, if you miss it. If you miss it or you'd say, okay, I need a week off and maybe everything changes. So sometimes you really have to be strong and push through and go through it. But it's not easy.

1:01:13I don't know what I would do now if I would be in their position. Because sometimes I would say, okay, this is great, but please give me three days out of. It's crazy, yeah. And this is why they also, they have to tell us the truth about how they feel. because, yeah, we could not over burn them.

1:01:35You took a year out, a master's in esports, and then you moved into real estate. Yeah, okay. Did that give you a bit of a refresh? What was stepping into a different industry like? The thing about the esports is just like I'm super fan of video games since I'm 12. And the thing also is just like I see that a lot of young people, All the brands, they don't know how to connect with the young people in advertising because young people don't look at TV. They don't listen to radio. So let's say that the main advertising company, they don't know how to reach the Generation Z, which is like the 18 to 25.

1:02:16So let's say that because they're live, they are doing that social media, but they're also playing a lot of video games. I mean, in video games, they are moving more money than cinema and music in Spain. So I think there's like a here a big opportunity that scouting can be made through that. We have to go finding people where the young people is. So like going to esports, like tournaments or things like this can be funny and finding people. So I went and then after, yeah, I was like, really, I didn't want nothing at all to hear about modeling. And then I was, I saw, yeah, I was like, hey, we see what, what about real estate?

1:02:56And so I, I went and it was my first interview ever in my life. I got hired. I was getting a little bit bored, but I was like feeling like a model who is always on option with like huge fragrances campaign. And then, you know, oh my God, this is going to change my life. This is, and then it's not happening. And then suddenly Juan Carlos called me and then I thought he wanted to buy a house. And he said, hey, listen, we've been thinking lately and we have like a free position. And we think that instead of going for juniors, we prefer to have you back. And what do you think about it? And then after these nearly two years of rest, I said, OK, let's go.

1:03:39It must have felt a bit like coming home. Yeah, exactly. I feel like coming. It's just like sort of circle, you know, but it's great. And so let's see what everything I've learned from all my life and being on my own. Let's see if I can somehow put it into view and see what happens. And I think that is an important lesson to everyone as well, that, you know, you never fell out with anyone. You kind of moved and then you went back. And I think that's really important. You know, sometimes I think especially I remember when I was a lot younger, I was a lot more like if a model left and went somewhere else or if someone from my team, you know, I would feel really let down and really upset.

1:04:22Whereas actually, you know, you just need to keep the door open. People move around. Yeah. And I think that's obviously. Well, I think, but this is why, I mean, the important thing is to always, when you make a decision of moving, is always being done the right way, you know? I mean, not stealing anything, you know, not trying to, you know, to get the database and all these things. I mean, after all, with the technology nowadays, I mean, don't play with this because you're going to be sued, you know? I mean, you cannot, but also like, you know, telling, okay, listen, I have this offer, which is better, you know, I'm sorry, or I want to try this or I want to try the other.

1:05:05And then I think that you always have to be professional and educated and because you never know what can happen, you know, and exactly. And at the end of the day, I'm going back. And then also at the end, also, we are not so many into this industry. Yeah. This job, you don't learn it at the university. You know, it's just not that you go for being an agent and then you're just like, okay, you do your four years like a lawyer and then you go into a lawyer's office and all that. And here it's just like you get in somehow and then if you're good at it, then you start climbing, I would say. And then, yeah, and then that's why maybe there are so many changes of position between agencies because at the end of the day, who's really prepared on this job?

1:05:50So the only ones who've been acquiring the experience over the years. Thank you so much, Erwin, for being with us. That was such an interesting conversation. Thank you. Thank you for listening to The Business of Modelling. If you enjoyed the conversation, please follow the podcast, leave us a review and share this episode with someone who would enjoy learning more about the world of modelling. Thanks for joining me and I'll see you next time. You