Bailey Frances, Casting Associate

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. Today I'm joined by Bailey Frances, a casting associate working across film and television. After a 12-year career in the arts as a dancer and model, Bailey was drawn to another side of the industry and began her journey into casting in 2018. She has worked with a number of well-known casting directors and officers, including Tree Pets and Kate and Lou, and is now an associate of Shakira Dowling, where she has been working for the past six years.

0:48Her experience at both independent and international level gives her a clear, practical understanding of how casting decisions are made.

1:02Bailey Francis, welcome to The Business of Modelling. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me.

1:11So can we start with your background? So where did you grow up and how did you first get into casting? So I grew up in Cambridge. I didn't get into casting until fairly recently, like seven, six, seven years ago. But prior to that, I worked in the industry as a dancer. I'd danced from before I could even, before the memories of anything else really come up. But my parents were amazing and they just sort of threw me into loads of hobbies. And the dance is the one that really stuck. And I think it really kind of became more than a hobby once I hit secondary school. So were you, you were one of the little girls that was going to ballet every Saturday morning?

1:52Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. I'd always been quite competitive, but never been into, I hated team sports at school. Even if I talk about hockey or netball or anything, it makes me like, but dancing and anything solo, I was definitely. And were you academic? I don't want to say no. Yes, I was academic. I was always sort of slightly above average, but never really clever. And I was really fortunate my school really excelled in performing arts and so it was very available to me from and it was a real in year seven it was a real pinnacle point because none of my friends danced and none of my friends were into that they were all very much the hockey girls and the team sports things and I think that's why I've got a hang up of it because that I knew from quite a young age that that wasn't going to be me and in order to follow the path of performing I was going to have to make an active choice to do something different I was never afraid from quite a young age to sort of step away I kept those cool friendships which I'm really grateful for but I was I definitely stepped away from what was comfortable in order to know what I wanted to do so was it always dance or did you have a plan b no it was always dance yeah my dad both my parents are teachers I'm not from a performing family at all and were they happy for you to follow that very they loved it especially my grandparents and my mum they really pushed me and really enjoyed me doing that side of things because no one in the family had really done it before.

3:15So it was all very exciting to them. Where did you go to college? So I went to Lipper first in Liverpool and then I did three years of bodywork. So bodywork is Cambridge, isn't it? Yeah, it is. So lucky to have that. Again, that wasn't out of choice. It's really sad, actually. I had some scholarships for London, but even with the commuting or living in London, I couldn't go. So the option for me at that point was to go to body work and stay at home if I wanted to like pursue it further but you asked the question about whether my parents always um supportive this they were but there was this I embedded in my brain my dad the only intervention he ever did was I remember coming home one day and he on my because he's a maths teacher okay um and I was quite good at maths but not um again not amazing just average and uh um there was some papers for a maths college on my bed and he was like I'd really like you to read them.

4:11I don't think I even opened a page. I was like, sorry, Dad, I'm not opening it. And that was it. He never, he never, he just tried once. That's all he did. Bless him. So he didn't pressure you at all. He just said, do you? No, yeah. Just have a think. I didn't even think. No, no. Well, that's how you know, though, isn't it? Perhaps I should have done. Who knows? Yeah, no. I don't think so. Do you? I don't think I know. You probably wouldn't have laughed a very often. I don't think maths was for me. No.

4:42do you remember going into industry then making that decision and what was your first experiences again I think I was as much as my training was great no one equips you for the industry going into some of the schools now I think they're much better I think people have gone back and been like look you need to up your game you need to actually train people how to be in the industry but oh I think so much of the focus was just constantly can you be the best dancer that you are and I think talent gets you so far we all know that like I think once you hit a certain point there's no doubt that you're talented but I definitely didn't have a business I didn't know the business I didn't have any connections even compared to some of my friends who came from London schools this is possibly the difference that I don't know whether they just understood things better people were talking about inviting agents to showcases and I was like why do I need an agent that's how naive I was I was so focused on being the best I could be in that moment and hadn't thought of the bigger picture one of the things I think actually kept me grounded and kept me humble in the sense of I always went home to a to a warm bath and a warm meal and I think my mum even now even she's very much a motherly mother like she she's definitely I don't think I would have got through the training I did without living at home I was quite a young 18 like I was 18 19 I was always quite young for my age you weren't particularly street Streetwise?

6:04Not at all. Not at all. Friends take the piss out of me for it. I was, I think actually. And you're now like the sensible one. Now, so now, yes. And I actually think casting has really opened my eyes and made me self-reflect so much more than I ever did as a dancer. But yeah, I think I was very young for my age and I just didn't, didn't have a clue. I really didn't. It was quite a scary time for me.

6:34I very quickly learned that I was good at communication. I was good at relationships. And I think on the admin side of it, I very quickly realized that I was good at it. When you were doing your dancing and modeling, did you already find yourself watching how the casting sort of worked, how casting decisions were being made? I think I always had this real intrigue in it, definitely. And I think I, even in castings, and this is possibly one of my downfalls, is that my comparison in that room was ridiculous. And I'd probably be paying so much more attention to other people than I would have been if I was just concentrating on myself.

7:12I loved the whole process and I found it very fascinating. I think it wasn't until later on I kind of went, again, I did more freelancing work. I worked for a company called Skin and did some sort of fashion shows and kind of worked behind the scenes on those. And I think that's when I really got the bug of like, okay, actually, I think being on the other side felt more comfortable for me. Going back to the whole relationships and communication, I felt like I could really thrive in that environment. and that's when I think I realised that, yeah, I wanted to get involved in the other side. But you were dancing and modelling for 12 years.

7:52Yeah. Yeah, so what kind of jobs did you do? Looking back at my career, I've got some really nice credits. Like I did some music videos, I've done some backing dancing in arenas and I just, the most enjoyable jobs were those small corporate jobs or jobs. Some of the contracts where I've got friends that I've made for life, I felt the most anxious when I was in a group room with people I didn't know. And it just, I think the love of dance, I've always enjoyed dancing, but what I really loved was working with people that I had relationships with. I was always ambitious, but I think I very quickly realised that I was never going to be the person who was going to miss my niece and nephew's birthdays.

8:33My core people were more important to me and I think when you're pushing at the peak of your career you can't do those things you have to prioritize work and it just I very quickly realized that I couldn't do that what was the moment where you realized performance wasn't where you wanted to stay and casting might be and for me COVID I'd already started casting prior to COVID but at that point I was modelling, dancing and casting. And that was a really, a really pinnacle time because I think it's when I realised that I enjoyed the casting possibly more than the other stuff. But I don't know if I would have fully chosen to stop.

9:19I think COVID was a real natural kind of, okay, you're going to, the only thing you can do is casting. And a lot of casting offices completely closed. And actually we were really lucky and I had work through that time. And that's when I think I actually increased days that I was doing casting during COVID. So it was during COVID that you, obviously your dancing stopped. What was your first job in casting? It was a very slow process getting into casting. I knew that I'd wanted to get out of it. I had a mortgage to pay. As I say, I think I was doing more, I was doing fittings modelling to pay the bills and I couldn't get to the auditions and I was prioritising those jobs.

9:59and so dancing was kind of naturally taking taking a bit of a backburn and then I met a friend who was a producer and alongside this I was applying for production jobs in tv all that kind of stuff I feel like I think initially that's where I wanted thought I wanted to be and a producer friend of mine um just said to me we were in a hem party together she said to me have you ever looked at casting and I was like well not really like the only casting I know of is um yeah fashion shows and that kind of stuff knew nothing about it at all and she was just like I think he'd be really good at it it's quite a nurturing role and I was like and then I literally took her word for gospel I just it I then that I think after that weekend that I'd spent with her I went and I very naively and probably too confidently just blind emailed casting directors not having a clue couldn't write a spotlight breakdown didn't know how it worked I didn't really know what the job entailed.

10:56Not even that. I think I literally, I was like, at this point I was picking at straws and someone, the fact that someone said to me, this is what you would be good at. I just ran with it. And I was very fortunate at the time. And I think, again, I always knew from my dance years, I knew how to write a good email. I knew how to sell myself. I knew, even though I was never very confident, even in the peak of my career, I never had confidence. but you had to do everything if you're freelance you have to do all your marketing you have to do all your accounts and this is the thing I think I I knew that I had I again it's not in my family but I somehow had this drive and I somehow had this business mind and that's where I feel like I got to use it um and yeah very fortunate so I went and I interned with I don't know how it happened I just they did pick me up straight away um some casting directors met with me for a coffee and then were like, go away, learn how to do the job and come back very nicely.

11:51I have then worked for them since. I did work really early on with Shakira for free, which again, I definitely couldn't do for very long. But the fittings took me through it. And I remember the day. And that taught you the process. Taught me everything. She took me under her wing completely. We connected from day one. I was very, very lucky. Yeah. And we had a lot in common. and I interned on and off for her for three months. And then I remember we were in a commercial casting and she just shouted down the corridor to me and she just said, send me your invoice. And I did this little leap of joy.

12:30And that was, yeah, that was eight years ago. Okay. And so have you worked for any other casting directors? I've worked for two other commercial casting directors and I've consulted for a couple of other film casting directors, but I do now work solely for Shira. and I do a few other bits for for someone else but yeah yeah and do they did you notice that they all work differently did you learn different things I think I learned very quickly that it is um that every casting office is purely down to who who runs it as I can is and I yeah there's very I think and also I was very fortunate to learn the commercial side very early on alongside the film and TV.

13:12So I feel like I was really fortunate to go and be sort of mentored through my early years in all three. So now it's really nice when, I mean, Shakira very much specialises in film and TV, but we do commercials as well. And I think when we do get the commercials, it's really nice to kind of just kind of get full reign of how that works. And so, yeah, it's really nice. And what did you underestimate about the job before you started, do you think? everything. Was it what you thought it was going to be? No. Yes, I don't know what I thought. I think I just didn't even have time to overthink. Something was guiding me and something told me that this is something I could enjoy.

13:54And I very quickly learned through my entire life, I've never been someone to, I've been very driven, but I've liked to feel safe. And I definitely felt with Shakira especially felt safe and these this side of the industry felt like okay it took me a little while to kind of get get graphs of how it worked but yeah it pulled me in really quick

14:26something I haven't I think I didn't really learn until even later on is again the relationships and connections and i think it's our job to be really um engaged with agents and i think that's something i hadn't read earlier on you're constantly doing the emails of l check self-tape requests whatever but it's only in the past sort of four years where i've realized where actually when you can build those relationships with agents actually that's where your your job and your your role as a casting director really comes to life because it's where you can get people that other people couldn't because you call in those favours you call in those people that you know you've got connections with and that's what I've really enjoyed is building those bridges which you don't get to do as an assistant it's only it's only as you get more responsibility but I think seeing early on how those were and how that came to place and then learning how to do it myself what is a really good agent to you someone who will only put people so for example if we've put out a casting call and they um they will submit via spotlight or they might email and say look this person i've subbed some people on spotlight this person's not on spotlight but i think they'd be they'd be great because we do read every email sometimes it's like we're too busy and it's like we're bombarded but we will if it's relevant we will action it straight away and i think a good agent is someone who they do the role of a casting director and they do the role of an agent and they do the role of a producer I think an agent has so many branches but I think it's getting in the head of the project and being able to do it really quickly and you've got to know your people as an agent yeah you know you've got to I think there are so many agents now they just take people on and don't really know them you know they're like oh they look all right we'll put them forward but it's actually really knowing what their performance is going to be exactly and at the end of the day what's important to us as casting directors is trust and being able to trust an agent being able to trust a performer and it goes back going back to my days in the industry I felt I think what makes a really good performer and anyone in the industry is just professionalism and being calm I think as soon as you lose your calm it's like a whole other ballgame yeah yeah Yeah.

16:44And do you, when you get a briefing, you have your list of agents that you like working with, presumably? Or does it just go out to everybody? I have, this is where, so when I'm putting a brief out, I will try and put it to as many, it depends on the job. Every job is different. But if I can, I'll put it out to a bigger audience as possible. Where it comes into play in terms of knowing an agent and having a relationship with an agent is when you're caught last minute. you need to do a recast your some is when is when the drama or the emergencies happen that these relationships come into play and you have your people that you phone up and the the agencies that you rely on i think i think most agencies have the opportunity to do a good job from the from a general sort of breakdown but it's when you when something goes wrong that's when you can call your people that's when it's important yeah and what about actors that might be self-represented, what do you think the pros and cons of that is?

17:41And if they're submitting directly, what should they understand or what do they need to say? Again, it's getting into the head of the, it's knowing yourself, knowing your, knowing, being able to read a brief and kind of read between the lines and sort of think, am I submitting because I want this job or am I submitting because I'm actually right for this job? And I think that's something that an agent would do that sometimes maybe you can't see. there is a real rise in self-represented people why that is I don't really know but as we're never against it um but I think in terms of sometimes further down the line in terms of protection and things like that that's where I think it's more important than not to have an agent to have an agent yeah but in terms of there are a lot of jobs that you won't see but there are jobs that you will see and I don't I don't know I'm not I can't say whether it's whether it's a good or bad thing were you always with an agent with you I was I was really this is the thing I had I was especially as a dancer not modeling less so but with um with dancing I was so fortunate I had all of the the right agents and I just I could never could never prioritize it I was that client that wouldn't wouldn't be able to go to an audition because I was on holiday or I don't know I think I didn't I definitely the goes goes back to I was always really high as a very I strived and I was very high achieving but I don't think I actually enjoyed the reality of what that faced and yeah give me the the you like the secure the security of having yeah yeah and I it's only something I've kind of realized later on because I think I look back and I think I wasn't I didn't do enough and I kind of but I I consciously chose two and I did have the opportunity to do more I just didn't go you asked me the question early on am I academic I don't think I'm clever but I think I very much since I've come into the side of the other the the the non-camera side of it I do I think I find more enjoyment in it and that's something I've only been able to say quite recently and sort of have fully stepped away from that other side of it there was a few years where I was always jealous of people in Instagram and I wanted that job but I yeah and I now I just think I'm really pleased I'm really I'm glad you're loving it but yeah I'm quite happy sitting at home in my little I just I knew that I wouldn't be able to get the lifestyle I have now if I was still in that industry

20:21so because of when you came into casting though as well you you didn't really know casting before self-tapes I mean a little bit I think we Shakira always worked internationally yeah so I did even before COVID I did work with self-tapes but not so much I was that little like the intern running around Soho prior to children. And yeah, I was in London every day and it was alive. And I really, really loved that. It was probably one of the biggest things. I'm definitely, I like to be busy. I like to be meeting people all the time. I think that's definitely the part of casting that drew me in. And do you do any live castings now?

21:03Yeah, we try to where we can. There was a few years where it really was quite sad. Do you think it's coming back round? Definitely. Oh, that's really good news. Although I think it's more so in terms of second rounds. I think a lot of times, I think self-tapes will be here to stay because producers in particular have realised how much it cuts a corner with money. But we will always push for it. It's the first thing we do. As soon as we get a connection with a producer, we're like, what's the budget? Can we have in-person casting? This is the, you know, we try and push that this is the benefit of it.

21:36What do you think you can't see in a self-take that you get from an in-person? Honestly, I think how someone would be on the job. And I think that's such an important part of... We work constantly, but how you are treated on set and going back to feeling safe. Like if you haven't met the producer and the director, do you feel safe going on a job where you don't know who anyone is? You've spoken to a casting director via a screen. Do you feel safe? I don't know I guess it's the norm now what's the first thing that you notice about someone when you're watching a self-tape I think it's it very much differences between so with commercials and film there's such a there's such a difference I think with commercials it's very much like you're the you're you're nailing the you're trying to nail the the brief and I think very much so with commercials a lot of it's down to look and the first thing is whether that person has the right look and then I think the acting is secondary with film I think you can tell straight away by the glint in someone's eye that's what I look for I think I can tell before even someone's even opened their mouth as to how good their tape's going to be and I think that's something I hope I like to think is something that is just sort of learning to learning your gut instinct and picking bringing the right people forward you hope that you're matching people that way.

23:00Yeah and people always obsess over being right for the role so from from where you're sitting what does being right actually mean because you must have an idea in your head of what you're looking for and do you do you sometimes cast someone completely different to that idea? Sometimes yeah I think I think you have you have to always throw in a few wild cards but I also I think everyone who we ask to self-tape is right for the role because we've brought them in so this is where I think going back to telling my previous self always do the self-tape because we've brought you forward because we think you're right for the role actually being right for the role um booking the job I think it's capturing the essence of they've with commercials it's so specific in terms of what they're um they've sent the script and it's literally matching that um and trying to revision the look I think in terms of the director with film I think there's maybe a little bit more leeway in terms of when there's a when there's a role in a character that can be interpreted quite differently bring bringing a wide variety of actors who have the have the right brief but also could bring something different to it yeah and have also also being given the permission to have that because sometimes it's so specific on accent on ethnicity blah blah blah but when you have got creative input then that's when it gets quite exciting what is the single most common mistake you see regardless of experience level like what do you see in a cell tape you think oh don't do that um this is really basic and i know that sometimes the timelines are ridiculous um but poor lighting i don't think you have to have the right i don't think you have to have any of any equipment other than an iphone but if you're in a well-lit room and ideally not even lit like daylight then i think if someone sent me a self-tape that they've recorded at night sorry like it pains me with um commercials some of some of the things that we ask poor actors to do or models to do i'm sending the thing i'm so sorry this is so awful and it's sometimes hilarious sometimes it's weird um i'll just give us some of those oh just you know like i don't know pretend to be a frog or walk across the screen and like just I think yeah it's that the weirder and random the more weird and more random we have fun watching them but I also think oh my god I can imagine receiving this and just being like great yeah um and I think that that is where it comes where being on the other side and I still receive briefs from some agencies now and I just think yeah no way but I have so much respect and I think that's where I think with commercials you You can really play and have fun.

25:49And I think I can imagine getting some of the briefs for these commercials can be really tedious. But I think not losing that playfulness or not losing the drive to sort of try and make it something different. Because I think you have, although they're commercials, you have got a lot of creative output there. And you can do more than one take. So would you encourage people to do more than one take and give some... With commercials. It depends on the brief a little bit, doesn't it? It does depend on the brief. It's like how much do you make those bold choices to... If it's specific, if it's really specific, do what it says.

26:27If it's kind of like, if it's one of those improv situations, then I think you can do more than one. But it's when you can fully let yourself go and just be that ridiculous brief that we've sent. Actually, we enjoy seeing that and that's what we want to show the directors. Going back to your question of what's the one thing that you notice, I think that's it. I think if someone's feeling embarrassed or slightly uncommittal, just don't be afraid to say to your agent, this isn't for me. I can't be this character. I can't just pass on this one. We will never not invite someone back for passing. We will not invite someone back for just not taping.

27:04But you'd rather that than waste their time and your time. Yeah, because I completely respect being on the other side as well. I completely respect it's not for everyone. But I think, yeah, if you're going to do it, fully commit.

27:20and how about how they label not bothered don't need it um some and you don't need hands and this is this is the thing it's a good thing to talk about yeah oh there's been a real change in that i think with commercials if it's been specific it's been put in the in the email that we want to see Iden do it. If it's not been specified, either put it at the end or don't do it. That might, again, I don't work full time in a commercial office, but think unless it's been asked for, I don't think it's, for me when I'm watching tapes, it's the most irritating thing to constantly have to skip through. If you have to sit and watch that before.

28:02And also I've brought these people in so I know who they are. And also the director isn't looking for who they are to start with he's going to watch the talent first so I think there's been a real change of that so I think so you really needed to go straight into what you need to watch give us your best bit first I think it's different when you're in a room because you're having a conversation you're having a bit of an ease in so I think that's obviously when you when you're in a casting suite and they ask for an idents it's kind of like we're looking at you we're warming up we're ready to sort of and it's good for that for the for the actor as well to sort of have a little bit of a warm up in the room but on a self-tape for me it's really annoying and really distracting to have it bang at the middle in the first thing that you see um because we just don't need it and i don't think most of the clients need it either unless they specifically ask for it if it's something that's height um for example a lot of commercials are really specific on height or your location if so it we will always put it in the first thing do an ident and let her tell us your location and tell us your height um if we don't specify that then i would just yeah not do it and the same for for um for actors i don't for for um self-tapes for film and tv i would be bold enough to say just don't do it yeah and a lot of the info's info that you've got from the agent and yeah and we if we if you've been submitted by spotlight we'll send your spotlight with it so there's not really anything you need to tell us what makes you stop watching a tape early going yeah the non-committal thing i find it if as soon as i feel uncomfortable for them you know they're not right yeah um sometimes if i see someone glancing at a script if they're really good i'll email the agent and say can you get them to do this again so if it's script work they have to know it yeah yeah because that's part of what you're assessing them on again i know it's hard i know sometimes the timelines are ridiculous sometimes you'll have i don't know too many like five self-tapes in a day and it's a really long script but again if the script is too long push back we as an we as a casting office would only ever send maximum three pages or two scenes and we will always tell the producers and directors that that is what and for commercials really simple keeping it short don't be afraid to to push back and say this is too long sorry or can i do the first section because i've only got 24 hours to do it or whatever it might be with script work um would you it's okay to get anyone to read for you.

30:19Again, it matters more for film and TV, but I think actually readers are more important than you think. If someone's got a bad reader, it's quite distracting. So yes, again, with commercials, get your mum, get your sister, whatever it is to do it, because we can see the performance. But when it's a scripted self-tape, I do think a reader is really important. Yeah, because their emotional response that you need to see is coming from what the reader said. and it can be it can be the difference for a really good or a really bad tape I think if you haven't got the time to tape or you haven't got the time for a reader a lot of people now will record themselves again it's a really long process so it's something you need to practice if you can't do it in person getting someone to do it on zoom for example that's happening more as well so lots of creative ways of getting readers but getting your mum to do it isn't great no but you can get away with it for commercials again it's there is a we our acceptance levels are very different do you ever book straight from a self-tape after the first self-tape quite a lot commercials quite often and with kids you'll do you might do a zoom second so with with kids and again depends on the project a lot of the time we'll do self-tapes in the first instance then in-person recall um we do a lot of international commercials so often that's like a zoom recall and then a straight book.

31:44But with actors, sometimes it's recall, creative chat, offer. Sometimes we book purely for materials if it's an offer only. It completely depends on the job.

32:02Somebody that may have done a lot of stills as a model, do they put them on their spotlight profile or keep them off? for so i would say for spotlight keep them off um i think um model or not i think your spotlight profile should be like a really clean minimal page where we can see exactly what we need to and i think as on i would never go on spotlight and expect to see some stills jobs no and the whole model portfolio in the images no i would if i'm interested i'd then go on their socials And that's where you can rack out all those jobs and keep it tight to your acting work. The emphasis for models on socials is more than it is for actors.

32:49I would never really look at an actor's socials. I'd go online and find for other materials. Whereas for models, I know most models, I don't want to stereotype, but most models would be kind of expected to have decent socials. And what about showreels and videos and voice clips on Spotlight? what is annoying and what do you want to see i want to see one or two videos no more if for example if you've got um if you've got a really good accent a voice rail is great just to hear it um in terms of showreels and if it if if work's really old just take it off i don't i just don't think it does you any favors and and you want to see the bit that they're in you don't want to have to watch 20 seconds that they're not in before they appear.

33:39Yeah, exactly that. And this just shouldn't be too long. I think I can tell from the first 10 seconds whether I'm going to watch the rest of it. So I think having the biggest and not necessarily the biggest even, but showcases you the best. And for actors, that could be, if you haven't got any work, that could be a monologue or it could be a clip from, um like I we always say to actors if you can't if you're not getting work make work like do a short film um and get content that way because it does really help if I've got an act models less so again it's a different route but with actors if they haven't got a show reel it's really hard to then take them to the next step yeah because you're kind of and I do do it I will take people forward.

34:29They're competing, aren't they? But you're then making more of a guess and it's more risky for us because we can't see what you can do. Yeah. But you can tell a lot from a headshot as well. So there's times when I will do that. And you should have specific acting shots and not use your model shots for your... And I think most of the modelling agencies like yourself have got really great websites. So we just don't have the need to see any of your model shots on Spotlight. No, because you can click through if you're interested in seeing more. It has really helped. Again, I was that annoying model that never joined.

35:04I was like, at the time, was not interested in acting at all. So I never had Spotlight. I was like, I don't need Spotlight. Now I'm like, why didn't I have Spotlight? It's so important. Yeah. Is that the main one that you use? Yeah. Yeah. We use others. Yeah. Again, it depends on budget. But if you're not on Spotlight, you will be missing out on work. And I never knew that.

35:30there's a difference between being talented and being bookable how would you explain that difference to someone early in their career two things once one is is that je ne sais quoi as we say at the star quality um which i think once you've got an agent and you get to some point i think you have to have and i think the other thing is business i think you can't something like yeah and again going back to what i was talking about when how i experienced the industry I didn't use it quick enough and I think um I wish I'd gone into casting earlier because as soon as you know the other side but not everyone has that and if I could go back to my 17 year old self now I'd do things so differently but I think um yeah it's it's it's having a business brain and knowing how to market yourself and even in this world now even more so than when I when I was doing it it's so much more important like you are a manager you You are a PA.

36:26It's a full-time job applying for jobs. But you have to take it seriously. You know, if you're choosing this as your career, I think lots of people will come into an agent, they'll get taken on by an agency, and they'll think all they have to do is just sit at home and wait for the phone to ring. And I think that was me as well. It's exactly that. And it's like, well, what do you do? You know, you need to get yourself out there. You need to make sure you're always updating things. You need to be meeting people and feeding back to your agent. and you know it's got to be a really good partnership yeah it's that it's exactly that I think you kind of once you get your talent is getting you to have the right agent and your talent is is has got you into the best school and you've got the you know but unless you're constantly networking and I'm not saying you have to have social media but there's other ways of constantly striving and I think working on yourself working on materials or as a model I think having that conversations with your agent and if you're not getting this is the thing as well updating photos and things it's so expensive but it's I honestly think every time you pay for a photo shoot that photo shoot pays for itself because you're even your agents are like wow and making sure your show reels are great and as you get new commercials and new clips making sure they're edited in and there's lots of good software that's quite easy to use now like cap carton things but it's so important and updating your spotlight and as an agent we need to know that we're putting every time we put you forward we've got everything up to date and you're going forward the best way you can go forward absolutely and that can't all come from the agent you know you've got to work with us it's similarly to us isn't it it's all trust and if you're not if you're not being open and transparent with your agent or not actively doing anything yeah yeah you might be the most good looking person on the books but you're not you're not it's not a collaboration because that's what it is what it is yeah do you guys go to set quite a lot we do set visits quite a lot yeah yeah and what makes an actor really memorable what's someone that you'd remember someone who's really professional and just I think there's this assumption that like the actor steals the set.

38:39But actually, as soon as you're off screen, you're a crew like everyone else. And I think if someone's pulling focus or if someone's being dramatic, like too much hard work, that's really off-putting. I think it's learning how to sort of, again, manage your environment. And be a nice part of that too. If you're not a nice person, people don't want to work with you. You might be working in a shop together. Any job, it doesn't matter what you could be working in, test goes if you're stacking shelves next to the person and they're like doing your nutting you're going to ask and not you're going to go to your manager and ask to not be put on the same aisle as them same in acting if if someone's not a great person to be around on set it's very easy for the producer to just be like we're not working with them again it doesn't matter how big they are

39:35Rejection is a big part of this industry. When someone doesn't hear back or doesn't get the job, how personal is that decision really? Not at all. I think, so we've, with commercials, we've had like two people at the end and they are both phenomenal. and there is nothing there's there's really no reason at all it could be something like the director and this is the other thing as well like it doesn't matter how many times what we think when it comes to the crunch we haven't we have an influence but we don't get to make the decision and i think it's it can be oh that person's closer so the travel costs less that person's over licensing age so we don't need to pay for a chaperone there's so many behind the scenes factors that unfortunately sometimes come down to budget sometimes just come down to preference but if you've got shortlisted yeah you've done a great job you have to celebrate those wins and you have to look at those wins you know even if you don't get the final job the fact that you were submitted by your agent you were chosen to take there's so many stages you've got to the second stage that's all brilliant you can't dismiss all of that just because you didn't get a role at the end no 100 i think if like being selected to self-tape you've done something right to start with because you've been put in like you say your agent submitted you or we've seen your profile we've we we want to see more and i think once you're shortlisted in our eyes as a cd you've got the job like you've been good enough to get the job um and yeah i think take those small wins and run with them and i think there's no i think people always come back for feedback and sometimes it's really hard because there's nothing to say there's nothing no i agree and it's not even that they weren't right that as you say there's there's two phenomenal people at the end and they can only pick one yeah and but the thing is as well is um every single time you're in front of us we will there's people who i've seen in workshops um who i've then gone on to to um to see for other projects or especially people who the more if someone's been shortlisted you've been seen by producers you've been seen by casting directors you've been seen your agents knowing that you've been selected so you've bumped yourself up on that list like there's so many just keep doing all those things and it will pay off

42:03if you could give three rules for surviving casting rooms and self-tapes what would they be stick to your usp don't ever try and diverge like diverse from that unless it's for a complete creative role i think know what that is and be proud of it two would be again i think work on the admin side of things i think it's so important and then number three would just be just not not just don't ever be hard on yourself don't compare yourself something i learned too late but But like, I think just, yeah, just keep going and find all those little things to keep yourself busy and to build your graft and to, yeah, don't ever compare.

42:49Comparing yourself is very, it can become so toxic. I think you can look at what other people are doing and you only see what you see on social media. So you're only seeing a tiny snapshot of their life. And you're looking one way and you're going, yeah, I want to be like that person. and I want what they've got. Why didn't I get that job? And what you don't do is look the other way at how far you've come and what you've got that perhaps other people haven't. And I think it's really important that you do that because otherwise that can really eat you up. There's so many factors on so many levels.

43:26Like we spoke about earlier, like people's financial backgrounds, people's upbringing, your status, your like how much. And I think there's a real privilege in this industry, which is slowly breaking down. But I think you've just got to focus on yourself and how you can take tiny, tiny steps every day to like... And celebrate those. To build and yeah, it's brutal. It is brutal. I mean, you do have to be a certain type of person, I think, to thrive in this industry. Or learn to fake it. Yeah. Once you get into this industry, whether it be dancing, modelling, acting, whatever. I think there's so much emphasis on once you've done it, you've got to a certain point and you feel like you owe yourself to constantly keep going even though you're not happy.

44:18And I think what I want to try and say is that there are so many other jobs in this industry. And I think you can find satisfaction. It took me a little while, but you can find satisfaction in other areas. And I think there are so many. It's hard. I like to talk to theatre schools and things because I think a lot of the time it's like you're so one-track minded at that age especially of like this is what I'm going to be and actually for such a small percentage of people that's the case but for the rest it's like you have to find a life around it without the qualifications without you've been set up for a life that not you know most people go to university they have a degree and then they get a job in that degree yeah with us and I think there's not enough awareness of the other roles in the industry, not just casting, but there's loads.

45:10Bailey Francis, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's been a joy. As always, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who might find it inspiring. See you next time.

45:31Thank you.