Brandon Andre, Photographer & Model Scout

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modeling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modeling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business. Today's episode is a really practical one, especially if you're just starting out in the industry. I'm joined by Brandon Andre, an LA fashion and headshot photographer, model developer and scout, and the founder of The Photographers List. He's helped hundreds of models build their books, take strong digitals and get signed by leading agencies. Hi, Brandon. Thanks for joining us.

0:46Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

0:51Before we get into the practical advice, I just want to find out how you got started in the industry. So tell us where you grew up. What was your childhood like? Yeah, so I'm from Chino Hills, California, which is about 45 minutes east from here. It's a suburb. It's a really beautiful town, hills, green, everything right now looks really beautiful. I basically in high school, my mom had enrolled me in New York in a program called New York Film Academy. And I did like summer programs, really wanted to do filmmaking. That was like my passion. I want to be film director in high school. I wanted to do filmmaking, but it's like kind of impossible to get a bunch of 15, 15, 16 year olds to take project or any project seriously.

1:29So I was like, Dad, I'm going to practice my cinematography. I know that you have a bunch of cameras. Can I just take one and start taking pictures of things? so then I did that took the camera we took pictures of my neighbor Nicola and then I was like oh this is cool like just taking pictures of people and then um I there was this girl in my high school that was like doing these photo shoots I was like oh that's a cool concept let me just start taking pictures of people like she's doing so I started taking pictures of people in high school and then I realized that a lot of girls wanted me to take their pictures there were there was a particular girl that I was like literally in love with since fourth grade that I was like bet I'm gonna work my way to take all the popular girls pictures just so I can take her photos after high school I realized like I have this experience or I have the personality to actually do fashion photography so straight out of high school I graduated in 2010 and I immediately started working with modeling agencies the lower tier ones and I started working my way up with like all the big ones in Los Angeles going just shooting for them like shooting faces and at a very young age which is very surprising that I had this mindset at like 18, 19.

2:34I was like, I don't want to be a basic LA photographer. I want to travel the world and build a book that stands out. And it's like more set apart than like your, your traditional typical LA photographer. So 19 years old, um, through the help of my dad, who has a lot of connections in Guatemala government, I was flown out by Inguat, Guatemala tourist bureaucracy to do a fashion shoot on the Mayan pyramids and all over the country, all, all of like the best, most beautiful spots. They allowed us to basically gave us permission with security and everything to do shoots. So that was my introduction to like becoming international.

3:08And then eventually I was going back and forth to New York, working with all the agencies in New York City, building my portfolio. So you were still based in L.A.? Yes. But I guess going from just sort of shooting test shoots and things like that and suddenly being in Guatemala with all of these fabulous locations. It was awesome, but it was still not paid. So a lot of my experience. That must have taught you a lot. Oh, 100%. And I think that's what has empowered me to be what I can do now because, you know, I was the art director and I didn't even know what art direction was then, but I was doing it.

3:38You know, I was one finding the talent, finding the models, finding the stylist, finding the hair, makeup artists, creating the team. And then I was scouting the locations and doing all the things. So I was having to take on a lot of responsibility on my own. And, you know, it wasn't it was a it was a great learning experience. If you did that trip again now, it would be so much more fun and just wake like I'm so much more organized. now that I'm older, like, but obviously then I didn't really know what I was doing and I was attempting to do things.

4:07In my 20s, early 20s, I was working with different modeling agencies and I was inadvertently developing models. I shot a lot more males than females because males required the least amount of work. I didn't have to deal with hair, makeup artists, stylists, and I knew clothes for males more than I did for females. So even though I shot both, my strong, my skill set among males was always growing and because I can connect and relate to them because we're both guys and most of the time they became friends of mine getting the skill set of development via that direction and then come 2023 2024 the influencer culture started blowing up and then I at the same time started shooting and working with influencers and then that working with influencers kind of propelled my social media following and then kind of caused the whole like oh i'm gonna start shooting for influencers and models with a bunch of followers to get credit because that's how people are taking payment then um still never really getting paid from modeling agencies essentially though continuously you were just shooting free tests i was shooting free tests i was building up exactly and trying to get working with clothing brands and fashion companies to to hire me as a photographer and never really had much success with that until like 2018 when like a brand did uh end up hiring me and then looking back what they paid me was embarrassingly they should be embarrassed of what they paid me but it wasn't a lot of money um but it was a lot for me at that time and I was basically leading an ad campaign called American Made where I was basically oh my gosh and the funny thing about that company is because the owners were so cheap they didn't want to put any money into anything I was doing so many things that you just would not do because the objective of this campaign was selling this shirt moisture wicking shirt that said American Made and the whole concept was we're going to unify America by traveling and I traveled to Virginia and San Francisco Los Angeles and New York to shoot people wearing American Made and we would launch everyone's going to post those photos at once on at that time Instagram and we were going to create this big noise on social media but we were I was also kind of like doing really not wise things like hitting up agencies to do test shoots with their models and then and throwing the shirt on them and then like using them, using the shirts to promote the brand.

6:19So you were getting into trouble. No, well I wasn't really. And then I was looking back at that as I realized, cause now I'm a mother agent and everything is different when you're a mother agent. I'm like, I would never allow that to happen. Like you were shooting for, you were trying to shoot for free a model that was selling this brand. The brand no longer exists by the way. But it's because the owners kind of like, they were wanting us to figure out ways to do everything for free to promote this brand. And that was my concept American made. and yeah a lot of people like hundreds of people participated but it didn't take off or anything like that but I learned so much from being behind the scenes of a brand how to cast models how to market a concept and a lot of my skill set in those years where I wasn't really making a lot of money were social media training and marketing development and and being able to create a brand so it was your education yeah so I wasn't working I didn't make a lot of money was broke most of my 20s um but it was it it's so important that I went through that because it's why I became who I am today 2018 I kind of paused from um photography because music was always my passion I because then I became in front of the camera and then I was doing my own music videos I was doing my own shoots and I had the experience now being in front of the camera knowing how to move and do all the poses and stuff which is why I'm effective at developing models but it also gave me more insight as to how to grow an audience how to brand myself how to market myself which are very valuable tools for models ultimately pandemic occurred I think I was always shooting like acting headshots so acting headshots was always a thing that I was doing in starting in 2020 or 2014 but I didn't know how to run a business I wasn't I didn't have a business mentor no one really poured out into me my life and so I was navigating my life on my own struggling being broke and then pandemic really changed the way that I looked at things I realized I could make a lot of money from offering a service so why don't I just focus on on the service component of my photography and my goal was to become like the number one headshot photographer in Los Angeles hired a Google SEO expert come 2022.

8:14At that point too, I was also like in$35 ,000 worth of debt because of music. Again, it was a crazy time for me. Also was driving for Uber, which I hated, but it was a great learning experience because it taught me how to be excellent at doing something you hate, which I was. But that was important too, because the unemployment that came from Uber allowed me to reinvest in my business. Coming out of the pandemic in 2022, I was able to pay off all my debt, I was able to save$20 ,000 to move to Los Angeles, build my headshot business to where now that was bringing me sustainable income. And then at that point, it was okay, a lot of people now are asking me if I can shoot their digitals friends of mine.

8:52And at that point, you guys, you have to understand to digitals weren't as big of a thing until the pandemic before that. And in the early 2010s and early 2000s, you would go to an agency, an open call and throw your book on the table and they would take your book and look through them. And if they wanted you, they would just call you in afterwards. Digitals, they weren't what was being required back then. So the industry changed with what they were requesting because they went from doing open castings to then submissions, online submissions. And at that time I had a little bit of money in a studio in downtown to the head white wall.

9:26So I was like, okay, well now I have white wall. So I'll shoot you guys' digitals. And I told my SEO guy, I'm like, let's just create a page on my website that has model digitals. Like whatever. It's easy for me to show people that I can shoot them even though I wasn't getting a lot of them. For those who might not be familiar what exactly are digitals in the modeling world and why do they matter so much? So digitals are essentially plain images that show you in what you look like in good lighting. It's really not supposed to be a fashion it's not really supposed to be a photo of you dressing in a lot of fashion.

9:56Very simple standard t-shirt standard fit jeans no makeup showing your face showing how you wear basic clothes and why that's helpful is because when I scout people for instance on social media most of you guys if you guys know who I am and you guys see my can I be a model series you see the photos that people send me you can't really see what they really look like and so what helps is a photo of them in good lighting and that's what a digital is very simply a digital when you're submitting it to an agency is a photo that shows what you look like in good lighting very simply to help me figure out if I think you could be a model or if I think that you're fit for an agency right but there's also another use of model digitals and that's for after you get signed so digitals can be used to get signed and you could by the way do it on your by yourself you can shoot them off of your iphone have your friend do it or you can come to someone like me who's a professional and i help develop people people who don't know how to move in front of the camera people who aren't experienced with lighting and i help people get the strongest most effective training development and digitals to send to increase your chances to get signed to an agency but then when you do get signed, you often will be asked for digitals and it's not as high quality.

11:07Most of the time, your agencies are going to take those digitals, but that's because brands constantly need fresh set of images on you immediately, especially if it's a brand that is booking for something. And then I think the third use is like fashion week where they just need your face to remember the outfits that you're wearing for the shows that they're doing. So those are like the three different instances that you'll come into contact with digitals. But the most important time and where I encourage you to invest is when you're trying to submit to an agency because you really have one chance to get it right or wait a long time to make it happen again.

11:41If people are wanting to take them at home or getting a friend to take them or whatever, what should they do? Find a plain wall and stand in front of a window. And you should have even lighting. Get your hair to your face, especially you boys. Stop covering your face with that long poofy floof thing that you guys are trying to do. Get your hair to your face. same with women um hair behind your shoulders very simple outfit and show us all your angles keep the pose simple and we need to see a smile because there's so many yeah i always get laughters especially if i feel like you have a commercial look you also have to know your looks i think before you even decide to get digitals um know what your look is you know know if you're more of a fashion person or if you're more commercial spoiler alert most of you guys are probably going to be commercial so get smiles and i don't mean as an agency owner do you care for specifically commercial models whether they have some makeup on natural makeup on no it has to be either no makeup or very very natural very natural makeup yeah i know that a lot of commercial agencies they are a little bit more um liberal when it comes to makeup they still want very little makeup but for fashion i know zero makeup yeah zero for digitals i'd say zero makeup normally if yeah if someone is doing them at home what are the do's and don'ts like what shouldn't you do if you're shooting.

12:54What shouldn't you do? Sometimes I see models or people that will send me their photos with mixed color temperature lighting. That's ugly. Don't do that. Find equal lighting. Turn off the orange light. Make sure that the daylight is the daylight and there's one tone of color temperature in the photo. Get rid of distractions. You guys could use a lot of AI software to remove stuff in the back wall so that it really focuses on you. A good scout and a good agent is going to be able to see your potential, but just make it easier for them. That's the whole objective. Your objective is to make it easier for them to see what you look like by wearing simple clothes again it's not like we can't see if you could be a model because you're wearing cargo pants but it's more like if you're wearing baseball cap and sunglasses exactly like if you're covering your face or just like don't like think like you're an agent they just need to see you simply so remove any distractions and your body shape something and your body shape get full body um another thing that you should do if you're gonna do it off of your iPhone is I would get the zoom do like a two point or two x zoom don't get close shots don't get like the one point the one x zoom on the iPhone where you're just getting close up because that tends to distort you if you do 2x it shows you in perfect like proportion so I would also consider doing that and then yeah just lighting is a big thing just go in front of a window and you'll you'll be fine

14:16then what ended up happening was that on google my model digitals page started taking off so the traffic started skyrocketing and i was like oh this is so interesting like i didn't know that this was something that i was starting to dominate in and people were inquiring for digitals general people and then i realized because at that time too when you would type in model digitals you would not find photographers you could not find photographers for digitals in the same way you would find acting headshots where there's like a plethora of acting headshot photographers um at that time you couldn't find anyone except for me so i was dominating this keyword and i was like oh this is interesting a lot of the people that booked me were people that had the capability of being a model so i'm like okay well i guess i could just help people plug them into agencies so then i started scouting but everything then became for content you know so at that point i'm like let's just turn everything that i'm doing into social media content so instead of just scouting people like from just taking their pictures you're becoming an influence yeah why don't I go on the street and do make it a whole thing go to the Grove in Los Angeles and find models to scout and I started doing that and then I started uh the the podcast became a means to create an incentive for the model master class and I interviewed Omar Alberto and another two other models as a way to like hey like you want to learn about what these models and former top model agent has to say about um modeling stuff by the course which didn't really end up being a selling point and I realized that the value that those conversations had were better usable in the public forum because obviously when you do podcasts it's like brings people to you and you just always want to have traffic all over the place so I was like let me just onboard this publicly make it available on YouTube and Spotify but it also became a tool for me to be able to connect with agencies and other models so it built my brand and my authority in the space even more then I was rebuilding my relationship with agencies because I still didn't really want to like engage with them because agencies never paid me so I never really had a good taste in my mouth about agencies because it's like especially as a business owner at that point I was a really great smart business owner so I'm like why am I going to benefit you the agency I'm developing your models I'm providing images that you're making money off of but you don't want to pay me like make that make sense so yeah and I guess from an agency's point of view all that is stuff that's offered in-house So they're shooting their own digitals and they're telling.

16:30Sometimes they are. Sometimes they are. But most of the time, like a lot of these agencies, they don't have good in-house photographers. And so I was reluctant to really re-engage with the agencies until I was like, you know what? I really need content with models that are actually signed. So let me just engage with these agencies, do test shoots just for content now. I book a lot of aspirational talent, people that aren't signed, but they want to be. And they come to me to build a portfolio. they come to me to book digitals and I can charge them more than I can charge agencies because agencies don't want to pay and their models don't have a lot of money so they usually will offer you if they do pay you a very low rate not really what you're worth but the public they'll pay you whatever you're worth because if they love you and they believe that you'll really help them they'll pay whatever your value is so for me it's like what is the objective of me shooting with an agency when I make more money with the general public so it's like I'd rather just offer my services to the general public and not necessarily pursue a testing pay testing relationship with agencies at that time but then as my brand continued to build and explode i started trying different content ideas series and then i eventually this year i launched the can i be a model series the can i be a model series is such a fun it's such a funny concept because that was the one question i hated being asked um but i would always get that question can i be a model i'm like stop asking me it's such an awkward question because most of you guys can't be models so what do you expect me to say like i like you want me to be honest because i will and then you get mad at me right so then i'm like i hate it and i kept telling people on social media stop asking me stop asking me you should know blah blah blah right and I learned you know what sometimes it's best to work with something and not against something so I was like okay screw it if you guys really are that desperate for me to to know what if you want to to know what I think then I'm gonna turn it into a series I'm gonna call it can I be a model series you send me your photos I tell you the truth my brain exploded um I think uh 15 or 20 ,000 followers within three weeks on Instagram millions of views on TikTok my brand has continuously gone out there people now recognize me they know who I am and I'm like oh okay well I guess this worked right and but different series ideas like that continue to get traction on social media continue to build my name and then because of all the different types of content that I've created the talking face content the thrifting content the scouting content the podcast all the different things like I've you know brought in a lot of traffic which obviously exploded my business then from there was i put together a concept i don't think anyone has ever done before called the model mixer event which essentially is a new way for agencies to scout talent you know when you do an open call and castings it can be very in or very formal and impersonal and very cold and you just don't really allow people models to really be themselves because it's such a like intimidating environment so i was like how about we change it up like why we have to do it the same way like we're a lot of the people that are in working at agencies especially the scouts they're young so like why don't we do a different approach where it's a model like meetup event allows models that are signed models that want to be scouted photographers influencers designers agents scouts mother agents to come together in a low risk environment but it's a scouting opportunity so people can show up so it's like a networking it is but it's like very intentional so people can get scouted so um in miami you know one of the things that we did to help models get scouted was like okay like everybody can come it's free um but you get like a purple bracelet for instance and that kind of signals to other scouts that are here that you are looking to be signed you're not signed so it kind of it's a scouting event but it's a way for an agency to kind of reconnect with their audience and to kind of appear like hey like we're also moving forward and we're not like stuck in our ways yeah and then it's also just an opportunity for photographers to connect with models for models to connect with photographers and obviously for me it's a way for me to cement my brand to kind of just bring my online presence together and um to connect with them so um I tested it it's kind of been like a building up process because I started when I was when I went to New York last fall I was like okay I have an online presence.

20:35Let's see how they translate into the real world. Like, will they turn out for me on the streets in a physical presence if I set something up? So I was like, in New York, didn't plan it ahead of time. I kind of, so I told everybody I'm going to be at Washington Square Park. It's going to be a model meetup, um, where all black outfit, casting outfit. And then about like 50 to 75 people ended up showing up and I was like, wow, I was surprised because I didn't think anyone was going to show up. I don't know. Like the entire Washington Square Park was like packed with models wearing all black. And we were doing like a runway show.

21:11We were just creating content, talking, mingling. People were able to network. I met photographers, models, influencers, mothers who kids are young aspiring models. People that were like really engaged with my content. So that's the plan just to go around everywhere. So the plan is, I mean, I'm going to London for a week, then Paris. I don't know that I'll do a meetup there. If I do, it'll probably just be like a park version, not anything because I'm not super familiar with the culture in Paris and I don't speak French so I don't know um if I have the same pool that I would have in London so I can speak English in London I get like you know so I don't know if language will be very but I'm going to try to still do like a model meetup in Paris just to see how it goes and to connect with whatever audience I have there I've been able to connect with people all over the world so where did your revenue come from now your revenue streams what percentage is now it's um model coaching calls I have a four 10 people sign up for I have the model master class I have my model test you guides that are downloads I have the digitals I have the test shoots I think I have the one-off coaching calls so when you scout someone you then you don't act as their mother agent then so okay the other way that I was building my social media following was by launching a worldwide model search okay so before the can I be a model series that was another tactic that I was implementing I was running an ad on social media and telling people if you want to be if you think you can be a model then I can scout you right i at that point though this is the other reason why i wasn't really connecting with agencies because i'm like i don't actually need to go to you guys anymore i can just go to the mother agents because the mother agents have your connections so for me i'll just connect the models to the mother agents who will connect them to getting signed okay so you're then not taking a commission for that you're just passing them right there are mother agents that i was negotiating like oh let me take five percent and then a lot of i don't think mother agents make a lot of money so they were like we don't even make money at this point i was like you're right and at this point i don't really care to make the money.

23:01It's more the credibility that I need. Like I need to tell people that I've gotten people signed. So let's just partner up so that I can just everyone that you place, I can say that I helped them get placed. So I was doing that for a while. And at that time, that's when I was like, do I want to be a mother agent? I'm like, no, I make a lot of money. I don't really need to do this. It's a lot of responsibility. But what kept getting me interested was just the connections that I was building. Cause obviously the more connections that I have with the modeling agencies, the easier it is for me to say, Hey, I have this model, want them or not plug them in boom done deal but it was um this kid from new zealand who hit me up who i thought had a really great look i'm like okay like i'm not i don't think i'm not going to help him directly as a mother agent so let me just see what i can do for him so i contacted all the agencies in auckland send them their pictures wrote a little bit about him and um 62 management in auckland got back to me a couple of others um they met with him and they ended up signing him and now you know I helped a kid from New Zealand get signed to an agency in Auckland I was like oh well that was easy and this is actually pretty fun and like I was less intimidated to actually go about being a mother agent if I wanted to but I still was not sure until I went to Miami and I found my two boys Sebastian and Joel and it was at that point I'm like okay I really believe in these faces they have the personality the mindset that I would want to work with their fashion models or let's do this presented them the contract they signed and they became the first two male models that I that are under my mother agency don't plan on doing any more than two because I also realize when you're a mother agent it's kind of crazy to represent more than more than two people like that's a lot and it's like I really I'm in it what do you see as your role as mother as mother agent so they're assigned to me in two ways as a 10 traditional split as a mother agent but then they also I also have a 15 deal because I'm building their social media brand so I'm bringing them on not only to build them as models but I'm building them a brand essentially I'm going to make them social media famous essentially and I'm guiding them through that right and so like upon getting signed the first thing that I had them do was do like a 30-day Instagram story video challenge where they're talking on their stories in preparation for them to be creating content so I'm preparing them now to like be brands and to be able to be charismatic and on camera, basically like me.

25:16And so that's a part of the step one training. Then because one of them is in Miami, the other one's in Atlanta, I'm like, okay, you guys are flying out to Los Angeles for one week of development, right? But because I am a business owner and I have to write off a lot of things, I have freedom to lose money on them in order to see them succeed. So I told them, look, throughout this process, there's gonna be chances for me to advance money to you that you then pay me back when you get jobs. but I'm anti-debt so I don't recommend that what I also can do and will do is help you guys out when it comes to like your stay in Airbnb so I'll put$600 down and you guys could like pay the rest you guys book your own flights because we're all gonna have skin in this game okay so what I offer that's different than most mother agents is that I have a successful business and I don't rely on my models to make money off of them so I can lose money on them and be okay with it because I have to write it off but also I want to make it as easy and low risk for them to enter into this industry but still make sure that they have skin in the game investment right but also um with connecting them with other photographers uh also covering some costs for testing for other photographers really setting them up and really like developing them and giving them honestly my whole purpose is i want i want them to be so spoiled that it makes every model jealous and stuff um and then though it's the placement and connecting them to to agencies in new york cities which we have coming up in may and then from there it's just guiding them through the social media component because at this point and the whole point of this concept because i'm launching a series called the making of a top model featuring them and documenting how i'm going to take them to the top but the whole point of that is to prove to people that everything that i've been teaching about on social media that i can put into practice and prove that i'm right at what i'm doing and basically creating the blueprint for everyone else to follow on how to really break and make a new model in today's world so that's the whole goal of this but it's also cool because i really like these guys these are really awesome guys they have great personalities have great work ethic they're both computer science engineers they're um in their they're in in university so they're very very intelligent very well disciplined couldn't have asked for better first two models which is why i don't know that i want to represent more than that because it's going to be hard to find guys that are just like this um but that's how i kind of became a mother agent

27:33tell us about the photographers list so you founded that um tell us what it is and how that came about. Yeah, the photographers list is a new thing that I started at the end of last year and basically again it was another thing that I'm like a lot of these people need help here. So it became as a means for me to connect models, mother agents, and agency owners to credible vetted photographers because photographers don't charge themselves, they don't charge the money that they should for the services that they offer. So a lot of photographers, you know I charge at the higher end of what you would ever see for modeling digitals.

28:06I charge$400 for two looks. And a lot of people are like, oh my gosh, that's so much money. People have been paying me that since I started. And when I started, that was the starting rate. I just. I know. I have to say they were in LA and I paid$185 for a blow dry yesterday. And it looks hideous. Well, it looks great by the way. But no, like, like it even LA or not, like I, I knew, I know my value and that's what I want models to understand too. Like, I don't apologize for my value. Neither should you. and I've had models and it's very annoying who have like tried to challenge me on my rates. A lot of photographers don't know their value because a lot of them don't know how to run a business because a lot of them don't know how to run their business.

28:44And so they're afraid to charge prices that they should be getting paid. So for me, the photographer's list was also as a means to get photographers to understand you should be charging minimum$300 for digitals if they're good, but like$300 minimum is what you should be charging, okay? Because it's time that you guys start making a living for what you do because realistically, a digital will help a model make money. so why are you charging such little rates when you're literally going to be responsible for handing someone a career so to me it's you kind of like unionizing photographers to get them on board because in onboarding them i'm saying look you're now charging 300 for digital so if you're charging 150 nope you can no longer do that if you're part of this list you're charging 300 but you're also having to maintain this standard and this quality so i'm looking for quality photographers and then the the test shoots so photographers list is mainly for digitals and test shoots to make it easier for models to find photographers that can do test shoots same concept for test shoots 450 minimum four looks that's what you guys are charging you're not charging 250 you're not charging 100 bucks you are now you are now charging 450 and i'm trying to influence and change the culture for photographers so that they're making money we are responsible for making this industry so much money yet we're so undervalued no one wants to pay us and that's unacceptable.

30:04If models understand if I get professional digitals, I'm starting at$300. I'm also changing models, the mindset that they enter into in this industry because models are very entitled. They don't want to spend any money. They want everything handed to them for free. But if you know now, because brand Andre set the standard for photographers that you have to invest $300, if you want professional digitals, your mindset is going to change. You're not going to have to save up for that$300 and you're going to have skin in the game when it comes to your career, which is what I think makes someone effective at running and managing their own business.

30:33We've all had to invest money in building our businesses. You as a model, you think that you just can't, you can enter in this world, make money off of what we do and not spend any money is insane. It's offensive actually. So you as a model need to decide how fast you want to make money. Okay. Do you want to make money as quick as you possibly can when starting out? Or do you want to take the longest time ever? If you want to make money as fast as possible, you're going to be smart and invest in high quality photographers that are going to test you with high quality usable images and develop you at a faster rate.

31:02If you want to have a slower time making money, go the free route because the free route, yeah, you're going to work with a lot of newer people that don't have a lot of experience. And a lot of the images are more than likely not going to be usable. Sometimes accidentally they could be usable, but they're not always going to be usable, which means that you're going to be spending so much time doing free test shoots, getting images that your agencies may or may not use. And free always takes time. If you pay, you're gonna get faster images that are usable and you're gonna work faster. So you have those opportunities for sure.

31:34And obviously your agency is gonna help set you up with free test shoots as they come across photographers that are willing. But for my models, I wouldn't put them through that. I'd rather get them already working so that they could be testing and setting good habits. Because that's the other thing, when you're working with photographers that don't have a lot of experience, you're also learning bad habits when you're starting out as a model. When you're working with a photographer like me, you're starting out at learning good habits and learning at a high quality level. So it really comes down to you and how fast you wanna make money.

32:01Yeah, absolutely. So with the photographer's list, how do people use that? What can they expect to find on the platform? Yeah, it's a directory. It works in one of two ways. You go on and we're still onboarding. It's still relatively new, but you go on, you search what city or country you're from and you find all the photographers that are listed in your region and you can reach out to them. via they'll have their website and their social so you can connect with them how do you know they're good how have you well so this is where it's challenging and this is why this is like a harder thing to pull off because i've had to the the way that i've onboarded them is um they'll fill out a form i asked for three testimonials from people that they've worked with so i dm them to get an actual testimonial like how was this photographer to work with so they've all been vetted by three different models that they've worked with which is really a lot so i don't know that i can actually like act like roll that out and and with every person that i onboard if i want this to grow and then the photographers will send me uh their best shots and that's pretty much it i think the onboarding process i mean oh i'll call them i'll talk to them like look this is the pricing that we're trying to maintain a standard of and these are the expectations what are you hoping to achieve with connecting the site right that's it so financially i mean eventually technically I could like chart like so there's there's models.com right and I'm trying to make it something like a directory like that that's like respected in the industry but what ended up happening that yielded financial benefits was realizing that a lot of these photographers need development too so I launched a photographer coaching program so in one way it's like you can onboard yourself or you could as a photographer apply for my program where I make you ready to be at the standard that you need to be to be on that website.

33:41So going back to models, from your experience, what are agencies looking for in new talent at the moment? You're never going to know what they're looking for. And realistically, you just have to believe in your own value and hope that someone believes in you the way that I believe in my boys. And that's really what it comes down to. I mean, like, obviously, the person that scouts you believes that you have a look. So just be content with knowing you'll never know. can anyone model yes anybody can model the right question that i like to ask people is will you be making money as a model not everybody's going to make money as a model so everybody can model sure you're not everyone's going to make money as a model

34:31what are the pros and cons of agency representation versus freelance everything um so freelance you're not going to make a lot of money okay because most of the time you guys don't know how to negotiate for yourselves and um you're not going to be able to tap into the higher paying jobs higher campaign jobs you're never going to do fashion week and with the benefit of being with an agency supposedly okay is that you have an agency that is literally supporting you encouraging you developing you at the highest quality levels using all their contacts to connect you with the best casting directors and get you plugged in at the highest level.

35:06But that's not always happening nowadays. A lot of the way that the world has worked, you have to manage and advocate for yourself a lot in that you have to be dealing with your own branding. You have to be on top of your own testing and creating these images to send your agencies because a lot of these agencies are scattered all over the place. And a lot of times they're not micromanaging, you know, their talent. So it's beneficial because a lot of the gate kept big jobs are through an agency. I mean, the thing is, independent is cool. If you're doing it as a hobby, do you have a job, you're making income, you're modeling on the side, you're using new book.

35:42Cool. That's great. But don't expect to be able to like graduate through the, graduate through the fashion world and like reach the upper echelons of the fashion realms. Um, just be happy with like that local designer that gave you$400 for a job. And you, um, obviously a big believer are in social media that's worked really well for you um what makes a model's profile stand out online um photos that i can actually see you like most of these models who reach out to me from i cannot be a model series you can't see what they look like like you want me to make a determination i don't know what you look like so photos that show me what you look like is a great start and what are the big no-nos what should models just not be posting on instagram what do people not want to see explicit stuff drug usage bad styling if you don't know how to dress you need to go learn how to dress and don't post bad fashion styling and bad test shoots how can a model balance that sort of authentic content with obviously having to be polished enough like you know looking at aiming themselves to be a content creator to brands your aesthetic is something that you're you're born with and it starts with your bedroom um you want to have high quality content show me what your room looks like if your room looks sloppy messy disorganized and ugly like you wouldn't take a picture of it and post it on social media start there because who you are is reflective in how you live and in your environment i think that about people's computers their desktop how tidy their desktops are whether they're going to be organized oh my gosh imagine that's a great reference because my desktop is very sloppy but my apartment and my everything is like really clean but start with your apartment because or start with your bedroom because then after you get your bedroom situated and designed and styled to an aesthetic that you like, you're then going to take care of your styling.

37:30You're going to start like looking for aesthetics to mimic and that inspire you. And then once you start dressing better, you're going to have an eye for branding and curating an aesthetic that will then translate into your social media, which at that point you should be looking for inspiration. But if your room is messy and has a no style, you would not take a picture of it posted on Instagram. I don't think you're ready to start a brand. You have to start there and then work your way up. You have to have that ground training because there's, I can guarantee you, unless you're a company that's hiring like a branding expert, if you don't have basic branding, aesthetic building, like experience, you will struggle at building a really dope Instagram feed.

38:12So if a model is working with you, what is the development process? So essentially it starts with digitals. Everybody who comes to my studio will come and we'll get your digitals. And then from there, it's a lot of psychological assessment, actually. um i first thing that i notice when someone walks into a room is eye contact like do they make eye contact can they hold eye contact and then i always see if they're nervous or not and then usually um to disarm them i'll just like ask them we'll sit and talk and i just kind of get to know them a bit and then i kind of like peek in their brain and kind of see like how confident they are how much development they're going to need and then like what experience they have like some people literally come to me like i just decided one day i want to be a model so they didn't look too much into modeling stuff throughout their life than there are others who have like been obsessed with modeling their entire lives so they have a little bit more of experience than there are people that have never done a shoot people have done a shoot before um so i have to like assess you first we do your digitals and then there's certain exercises for people that give me the movement that i need um how do you get people comfortable on camera you know how do you because there's so much more to modeling than people think people think oh i can just be pretty and I can just stand in front of the camera and someone will tell me what to do.

39:23That isn't a good model. You know, how do you teach somebody to have that confidence and to give you what you need on camera? I expose them. I expose their fears in front of them. So, like, I'll call out, like, why are you afraid or why are you scared? Like, I'll, like, literally, I'm so real with them that I feel like they can drop their walls and be vulnerable. So first, like, I have to start at a real position with them. It's like, okay, you're nervous, you're scared. Like, what are you afraid of? So I have to, like, know their emotional state. and then from there it's a lot of mirroring i have to demonstrate to them and this is why i feel like i'm most effective with male models because i'm posing now it's like okay do this do this so that's why a lot of people don't realize like why it's so expensive it's because it's a lot of work it's very draining it's a very emotional situation so i'm depositing into them right and then i'm also like encouraging correcting encouraging correcting try this do this and getting them to like adopt certain mindsets because then it's also teaching them how to perform and um and for a lot of models it's sometimes they get it a lot of my models do a really good job the first time you know I've never really had someone I was like this is hopeless I think people can now see there's so much online now that people can see you know kind of 20 years ago people would walk into the agency and they had no idea they didn't know what modeling entail whereas now you've got everything online that people can actually go and research a lot of these models they still don't do the research and I think that's why I credit my music artistry because me being able to take good photos of myself as a music artist and have like music video experience i can be cool you can be cool so let me show you how to be cool yeah because i think a lot of photographers if they haven't been the other side of the camera they don't understand you know the difference it's very easy to stand behind a camera actually direct someone yeah to actually be which is why also in my photography coaching program i had my photographers do go and do photo shoots i made them go do photo shoots because i'm like you need to learn what it's like to be in front of the camera to be a good director behind the camera, especially if you want to develop models.

41:16But also it's because a lot of photographers are introverts. I'm a very exceptional case, you know, where I am an extrovert. And I also think like there's like a star component of things. Like I think that I'm a star. Like I'm someone that's always meant to be in front of the camera. And I know that I have charisma. So for me, I'm teaching models how to adapt that. So I come from firsthand experience. So I think that's what they get when they come to get developed by me.

41:49the modeling world can obviously be really cutthroat what mindset do you think helps people like stick with it through the ups and downs great question um basically separating yourself as a product versus your personal mindset like you you're you're your own person don't take anything personal then you're a product if you understand um they're not criticizing you they're criticizing your product because you're a business owner and your product is your face and they're just criticizing the product you just separate yourself cool that's what they have to say about the product but i'm me and i'm still valuable and i'm still worthy so if you can learn to separate yourself you're good if you can't because your identity is tied into your your product you have an issue you have issues you gotta get therapy because your identity is not rooted in your product you're then taking that rejection personally yeah

42:37what's one mistake models often making their digitals bad lighting bad hair bad lighting usually most overlooked quality in a great model personality lighting natural or studio what's your go-to natural and the first thing you notice when someone walks into a casting eye contact and one thing a model should never wear for digitals color uh favorite kind of shoot beauty editorial or commercial? Editorial. Best time of day to shoot outdoors? When you're a master of light, anytime. Posing tip every beginner should know? Don't call it a pose, call it a performance. Kit essential you never leave home without?

43:14My Canon R5 in 24-70 lens? Thank you, Brandon. Of course. Thank you for having me. It was a really good conversation. Yes, loved it. Thank you so much for having me.

43:26that brings us to the end of today's episode big thank you to brandon for sharing so much insight and no-nonsense advice if you're serious about pursuing a career in modeling i hope that did give you a few clear things to work on you can follow brandon on instagram at the brandon andre and at the photographers list Couple Department Department certifiedSTMT lenderians команд this is the 치lor ads people saved zombie

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