Daisy Pettinger & Freddie Abrahams, Commercial Model Couple

0:02Freddie Abrahams: Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, the Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year in business. Daisy Pettinger and Freddie Abrahams have both built successful careers as models, working across fashion, lifestyle and commercial campaigns in the UK and internationally. The two of them met through the industry and have also worked together on campaigns as a couple. And last year, their lives changed again with the arrival of their gorgeous son, Arnie, who joins us today on the podcast.

0:45Freddie Abrahams: Today, we're going to talk about how they each got started, what it's been like for them building a career in modelling, some of the memorable moments along the way, both good and bad, and how the industry has changed. Daisy, Freddie and Arnie, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.

1:02Daisy Pettinger: Hello.

1:02Freddie Abrahams: Yeah, nice to see you. Thanks for having us.

1:10Freddie Abrahams: Can we start, Daisy, if we start with you, where did you... We love that. Thank you, Arnie. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Derby, but yeah, I had a very normal, I'd say, average upbringing with one brother and yeah, very nice, normal family. I went to a normal school. Very, very normal. But what was I like? I was probably, I did really like amateur dramatics. I was big into my acting and singing, which I think has probably helped me in later life. I was very artistic. I did art and I did textiles. I used to be really into like fashion and clothes and all that stuff. And I did do a degree in fashion design.

2:01Freddie Abrahams: Right. When I left school. Was that still in Derby? No, I went to Leeds University. So modelling wasn't on your radar back then? Well, I did get scouted, but not until I was about 16. So tell us about that. um I got scouted along with quite a lot of girls of my era at the clothes show in Birmingham yeah that was fabulous yeah so um it was kind of like for those who didn't who maybe younger or don't remember it or didn't know about it was kind of like the place to get scouted and everyone at school we used to go on school trips there for some reason I've no idea why like I don't know what was educational about the clothes show but we all went off and busloads the clothes show at anything in Birmingham and they would be fashion shows and like it was basically loads of shopping though you know um and actually I did used to get scouted when I was maybe when I was 14 I got scouted and I just found it all really embarrassing I think at that age I found it a bit cringy and I didn't want anyone to think I was like big-headed or like I thought I was I guess good looking enough to be a model so I found it really embarrassing and then it just used to happen every time I went and then yeah when I was 16 I kind of I guess I was just I think my parents were probably like maybe you should look into it so yeah it took it from there really.

3:24Freddie Abrahams: How did that happen? Who were you scouted by? I was scouted by a few agencies there there was Select and and boss in Manchester. My parents had absolutely no idea about modelling. I mean, why should they? My dad was a salesman and my mum actually was a housewife. She never went back to work after she had me and my brother. And so I went down to London. My mum took me to see Select, which I mean, it's quite an experience. But I actually eventually ended up going with an agency in Manchester because I think they were really nice and I was going to well actually I didn't know where I was going going to university then but I ended up going to university in Leeds it made more sense and then almost one of the first jobs I did well the first things I did in modeling was I went to Tokyo oh that now that's an eye-opener I went to Tokyo when I was 17

4:33Freddie Abrahams: Freddie, tell us about how you got into modelling.

4:37Daisy Pettinger: So I had quite a privileged education, went to a very good private school, went to university, got a degree, found a job. And the first job I actually found was in TV as a production junior, a runner. Was there for about a year and then moved into advertising and then PR. But they were never really me. I just did jobs because you had to get a job.

5:01Freddie Abrahams: What were your parents' aspirations for you?

5:05Daisy Pettinger: Well, I mean, they're academic. They're both academic. I mean, for context, my dad was a Cambridge graduate and his two brothers were Cambridge graduates. My mother is very well educated. She was a journalist. My father worked in business. They weren't pushy parents, but they were encouraging, and I didn't want to let them down. So it was never that sort of clichéd thing of being pushed, but I always wanted to do my best because even at a young age, I was conscious I was at expensive fee-paying schools. Schools that, you know, yes, you had to get into your academic. So you appreciated that. Yeah, very much so, yeah.

5:39Daisy Pettinger: I was really into sport, and I had a family friend that worked at, a relative actually, who worked at Sky Sports. So I had an in, and in those days, I mean, this is going back 20 years, so that was that was great and it was as a 23 year old it was an amazing experience to be at

5:55Freddie Abrahams: like the front line of sporting like outside broadcasts yeah um live sporting productions

6:01Daisy Pettinger: it was an amazing experience but after a while and not even that long you realize that sport happens uh when your friends have uh their free time so sport happens on evenings and weekends so you actually get this life that you're when you're you're working when all your when your friends and family are free. And you kind of have to live that job. You've got to live that lifestyle. And you kind of look, look, where am I going to go in this job? I left that and went straight into branding and was an intern at a branding agency, one of the McCann group. This was actually my first desk job because there's a runner, you're obviously on your feet.

6:33Daisy Pettinger: But actually, this was the start of me realizing I can't be a desk. I needed to get some space, which in a really long roundabout way modeling ended up being able to give me.

6:45Freddie Abrahams: So how did modeling start for you?

6:48Daisy Pettinger: During the years I worked in an office people would say very flippantly like oh you look good in the suit, you know I'd wear a suit to it oh you look good in the suit, you should be a model but I mean what does that really mean? It's like I'm hardly going to book a flight to Milan and just walk into Armani and get a campaign there. So you kind of, but after a certain period of time I was like maybe I could explore that I ended up meeting a a photographer at an event and she, an amazing woman called Sally Kettle, she was a modeler herself and she said, okay, we'll do a test shoot. That test shoot allowed me to at least have some photos of me.

7:24Daisy Pettinger: I mean, obviously I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know how to relax, but she probably got enough out of me to get 15 images that I could then use as some sort of currency to get going with getting an agency. And that was the very start of it, like the very start And someone put me in touch with an agency in the Philippines and said, right, you go there and build your book. You won't have to pay for anything. You'll do jobs and that will pay for your accommodation.

7:52Freddie Abrahams: So that's really interesting. So both of you actually didn't start out in the UK.

7:57Daisy Pettinger: I think you did more, more legitimately. Yours was more of a posting, temporary thing.

8:01Freddie Abrahams: It was a kind of, you know, when I don't know if it happens anymore, but it was like, you know, I was, everything was advanced. and it was like a placement, a three-month placement. I had to miss like some of my school and, you know. But no, I did a couple of jobs in the UK before and then, but I had like, when I went to Tokyo, I had like six pictures in my book from like one test. I mean, getting to Tokyo, were you well, were you a well-travelled person? So that's quite a culture shock. I've never been on a plane. And in that time, I'm thinking 20 years ago, would you have had mobile phones? No.

8:33Freddie Abrahams: I've never been on a plane. No. I'd been to France. and Cornwall. My dad dropped me off at the airport and I got on a plane and I cried for a long time because I was so scared. I got off the plane at Tokyo airport and my instructions were to go to the phone booth in the airport, call this number, which I had on a piece of paper that was printed out from an email. And then some Japanese guy just rocked up with a van and picked me up from the airport. Took you to the model apartment, which must have been another IA. Oh, yeah. So that was, yeah, that was what it was. And I mean, I can't believe my parents were like, okay, yeah, sounds fine.

9:18Freddie Abrahams: But they were, and actually credit to them. It was fine. It was totally fine. And I had a great time. They would just send us with like instructions of how to get there. And then like a sheet of paper with it written in Japanese, like to show someone if I was lost. I mean, there was no, like, maps. There was no, you know. And all the signs are in Japanese, which, I mean, it's actually crazy to think about it now. But it was a massive, like, life lesson. Yeah. You kind of came home a lot more streetwise than you went. Yeah, for sure. And did you make money? Yeah, I did. I made enough money to come home and buy my first car.

9:57Freddie Abrahams: Wow. Which, it wasn't an expensive car. but it was a car um which you know back then when you're that age it's like you know I felt absolutely like really rich but no I think it was it was not a lot of money I have I think I paid for my driving lessons as well so yeah it was it was back then I mean yeah and I got I got some great photos and you know I got a book so yeah I mean I don't regret it it was definitely a great experience yeah what brilliant summer holiday I know I know mad absolutely mad and Fred tell us about the

10:28Daisy Pettinger: philippines um so yeah so i i basically quit my job in um pr it shows you how desperate i am that i i kind of did this a guy who i met on another model who is based out in career an english guy um was kind of acting as a mother agent for people and he put me in touch with an agency in the philippines uh elite manila who elite's just a franchise and you know the name sounds good but it's no connection yeah it depends who's running it in that country yeah exactly yeah and And so, you know, I had a chat to them over, I guess, yeah, like Skype, whatever it was then, and kind of went over it in January 2012 for what was going to be a three-month sort of, I guess, placement.

11:09Daisy Pettinger: Lots of the jobs were pretty naff. And like, basically, the incentive to go was to build a portfolio. Because in London, you know, I got two jobs, I really remember, through MOT in the maybe three months I was with them. But again, to go to casting, I was having to, like, ask my boss if I could go. it was just not really working.

11:28Freddie Abrahams: I've either got to jump in this with two feet. Exactly. And,

11:31Daisy Pettinger: and I, you know, I just need to get some experience and I need to get some images. I can't, you know, I'd done one job was like an editor, not an editor, it was for more magazine. And I was just like the side of my head while, you know, it's fake snogging a girl in a field. Like, and the other, I think.

11:46Freddie Abrahams: That wasn't how you met. You weren't the girl in the field.

11:49Daisy Pettinger: And the, the other, I think was, was it, was I say campaign. I think it was for like, not, I think it was for ME. the uh the uh the illness okay my wife said something about my look at the time or my my olive complexion but um I'm like yeah you know yeah not the thing you want is the first page in your portfolio I vividly remember it was 240 pounds which for for probably three hours work which for which for me at the time in a salary job was quite a lot of money so anyway in the in the Philippines I went out there and I did a lot of yeah they were quite naff jobs but I suppose I didn't necessarily know quite how naff they were without the fullness of time as you know I mean, I did know a bit, but when you look back at it, God, it's like high fashion there is, you know.

12:31Daisy Pettinger: Not high fashion in London, Paris or Milan.

12:34Freddie Abrahams: Exactly.

12:34Daisy Pettinger: It's quite like Zoolander style.

12:36Freddie Abrahams: Yeah, yes. You can imagine.

12:38Daisy Pettinger: And then three months and I was doing all sorts of random stuff like, you know, you know, topless catwalks in malls and stuff for brands. It's just kind of, but, you know, I was kind of patient. And then I was with the agency for three months and I basically didn't have any, like anything really very interesting or I could use. I mean, I've got some stuff from the archives, which would be amazing to look at now.

12:58Freddie Abrahams: We all have. Yeah. But I mean, honestly.

13:01Daisy Pettinger: But no, so then I actually stayed on for an extra three months outside of the agency, you know, just doing my own thing with my girlfriend at the time was out there with me. So I kind of had that a bit of support. I wasn't just alone, if you know what I mean, which I think was actually a big element of being able to survive emotionally. I just did loads of tests and through Facebook at the time was the medium. Instagram had just started, but it was very niche. It wasn't, you just message people on Facebook. You'd see other models that you'd met out there, Western models, and you'd see they shot with this person.

13:33And all the photographers out there were really keen to shoot with the Western models.

13:37Daisy Pettinger: So even though I didn't really know what I was doing, I was still building up experience and doing shoots. And I remember doing something like 20 tests in like 22 days. You know, you could just hammer them out. And some of them I got material, some didn't. But I came back to London, you know, eight months after I'd left and had at least quite a bit of imagery and walked into an agency called M &P, signed with them straight away. So that just felt like some sort of validation of what I'd done and was really optimistic from that point. But I had no idea how much one is meant to work or how many castings you're meant to have a week.

14:16Freddie Abrahams: You didn't know what being a full-time model really looked like at that point.

14:19Daisy Pettinger: I didn't have a clue. And so I didn't know what was normal, what was the normal. But I probably gave it three or four months and I just wasn't working. So I had to move.

14:36Freddie Abrahams: So Daisy, you then came back from Tokyo. I went to Leeds University and then through university I did do jobs. But to be honest, nothing huge. When I arrived at university, my friends still chuckle about this today. I didn't tell anyone I modelled. I didn't tell anyone for like the first two terms. And now some of my best friends that I met in those first few terms, everyone would be like, I mean, not everyone, but people would say, you know what, you should actually be a model. Like you've got a really good bone structure. You're like, you're really tall. Like you should be a model. And I'd just sit there and be like.

15:13Freddie Abrahams: You didn't go, I am actually. And then I guess at some point I did and they're all like. So you wouldn't get away with that now because you'd be all over social media. Well, exactly. Everyone would be looking at you on social media. No, it was embarrassing, you know. But then I think what actually happened was I finished university and I went travelling. And then I came home and I was a bit like, I don't really know. I had been doing bits and bobs of modelling, but nothing huge. Yeah, I was at home at my parents, like, what am I going to do next? And I, because I'd done my fashion degree, I got an internship in London for a fashion PR company.

15:55Freddie Abrahams: It was an internship, so I wasn't being paid. And I moved down to London in and I stayed with like a family friend and I had like 1200 pounds in my bank account. and there wasn't really a plan but I basically yeah had this had this internship it was only three days a week so that enabled me to go to castings on my days off and I didn't have a London agent I went to round all the London agencies and I signed with Nebs and they were really lovely and great from the off so I basically was in this internship for I reckon maybe three months thinking oh god I don't know if anyone's ever worked in fashion PR that's listening to this but it's not it's not super glamorous and it's hard work and you're doing all the you know bit crappy jobs but obviously I was learning a lot and I met a lot of people and actually it was really fun because I just moved to London and I was like going out and meeting loads of new people and it was great but alongside it I was going to castings and I was actually starting to book a few things.

17:01Freddie Abrahams: I was getting stuff for Debenhams, which I thought, you know, and, you know, I remember booking a job for Debenhams and it was£800 for the day. It was a lingerie thing. And I remember being like, oh my God, like£800. I could not believe it. And then really the thing that happened that kind of made me take it seriously was I booked a commercial it was for Special K and it was a week in Mauritius and it was like I mean back in the day when commercials paid really nice money I mean they still do now but it was very very nice then I had to leave my internship because they wouldn't let me have the time off to go and do this job and so I was like well okay I'll just leave them then and then that was it and I went and did that job and and then it just went from there really and to be honest I just was like well do you know what I'm just going to try it for a couple of years and see and that literally is like I'm still here like I never really stopped yeah so it was never planned at all I was never like I'm gonna be a star like I'm gonna be a model I wanna like it was never something I really wanted or planned for or yeah realized that it could even happen or but yeah I just kind of fell into it and then it went quite well for a bit and then I was like well I may as well.

18:26Freddie Abrahams: And then all of a sudden you were a model. Yeah really really honestly. And you couldn't deny it and you had to tell people. And then that was it. And Fred what did those first few months look like for you once you'd signed with M &P?

18:37Daisy Pettinger: There wasn't really a lot going on I mean it was the day of go see so you'd go to clients and stuff but essentially because I had no confidence I didn't have any experience I didn't really know what I was doing so even the simple act of going to a go see or a casting like I might time went on and I just wasn't getting, I wasn't really getting any attention either from the agency. So it was a difficult, a difficult scenario for me because I wasn't getting attention, but I also didn't really feel like I was worthy of any attention because I was just worked in an office like a year ago and I'm just some guy that feels like they're faking it.

19:07Daisy Pettinger: I wasn't like it, you know, I'm not cocky or I'm not outlandish. So it was just a difficult sort of scenario for me.

19:13Freddie Abrahams: You weren't someone that was going to walk into the agency and demand, I want to know what you're

19:17Daisy Pettinger: doing for me now and yeah no um and then i ended up getting um even though i wasn't really working i a scout was working on behalf of an agency that was just starting up called super and i think they're still going and i went with them they were headed up by a guy that was head of men elite in in london so it kind of had the right ingredients and and it was uh i suppose a confidence boost that okay i've been scouted and that you know they kind of got all the right ingredients and again uh i was there much longer i was there about a year and a half but again i didn't really have any there was no uh route for me there was no i would get the odd job here and there but there was there was no sense of momentum i think i was probably uh had a belief that i would eventually succeed um but i just had to just keep going um but it's quite a strange scenario because with something like modeling it's like you're if you quit you're it's quite in a way embarrassing because it's like i've quit i thought i could make a career out of the way i looked and then i've realized i can't and then i've got to go back like i mean no i know but i mean genuinely like yeah i mean i overthink a lot of things but that's essentially so it was it's quite was quite hard to quit if you see what i mean so i i just kept going and when i say kept going and you know I'd test when tests came around and I would just stay in the system with the agencies.

20:41Daisy Pettinger: And I think I did a very good test shoot with a guy called Kenneth Lamb. They were photos that I was able to see, oh, I can actually look quite good. I mean, most of them, at that point, it's hit and miss. And they got me into, essentially got me into NEVs. And then that was, again, kind of a confidence boost because, okay, now I'm going to feel like I'm just gradually going up tiers in agencies a little bit. And that's giving me the confidence. But even though I'm not working really regularly, and I haven't got regular finance, and I still don't really have confidence because I'm not working regularly enough to build that confidence.

21:14Daisy Pettinger: It's just very, I would get a job every so often with a brand or a client that was of a certain standard that would make me think, oh, there's got to be something there. Well, not just for you from a financial point of view, but just like, I must.

21:29Freddie Abrahams: There must be something to give you confidence.

21:31Daisy Pettinger: There must be something that they're seeing every so often that makes me think surely like.

21:37Freddie Abrahams: Do you know what's really sweet? I think, you know, people hear all the time how models have massive egos. And, you know, it's not just you guys. Most models don't. But I'm just sitting here and you guys are so sweet and you don't have egos at all. And it's just that perception, I think, that people don't really, really know. But it is an industry where you're putting yourself out there, isn't it? As you say, you're putting yourself out there. You are the product. And it's very hard to separate yourself from that. I mean, you are, if you're, and that comes with, you know, all the rejection and stuff.

22:12Freddie Abrahams: I mean, obviously, that's a whole other thing. But that's, I mean, really, if you're being rejected, you're being rejected for you. So it's, you know, you do have to. Yeah, it's very difficult not to take that person. I mean, it's almost impossible sometimes. I mean, even though it always isn't personal, it's really hard for it not to feel personal because ultimately they didn't want you. For whatever reason, absolutely. And, you know, I think from the outside, again, people always think it's really, really glamorous and obviously the reality isn't that. What did those early months look like then compared to now?

22:47Freddie Abrahams: I think we obviously had quite different starts.

22:50Daisy Pettinger: I think Daisy had some quite big commercials very early on, like, you know, commercials that would still now be like great to get now. and to have that really early on. I think, I mean, it's a blessing and a curse in a way, I think, for a lot of models because if you start with that early on, then there's not that many places you can climb to as in terms of they're very sizable jobs.

23:12Freddie Abrahams: I just was, yeah, I was lucky. And I was quite consistent for a spread over quite a long time really where I would just book nice jobs. you know I've been basically doing it since I was 23 22 23 full-time which is quite a long time I'm I'm 40 this year so it's it's a long time and you've never had to supplement that with with anything else I've never had another job which is I think it's quite rare actually for a model of my kind anyway well I think what's interesting as well is that you started off as a commercial model You didn't start off as a high fashion model where lots of models would start off as a high fashion model and then come into commercial work later on.

23:57Freddie Abrahams: I mean, I did do fashion, but I never did catwalk. I never did, you know, very high end fashion, nothing like that. But I did do, you know, fashion campaigns and high street and high street and still do. But I think Fred has kind of I mean, Fred is the most modest. But I mean, now he's like, I mean, as a male model of his age, he works so much and he's so sought after now. So, I mean, I'm really proud of him, even though I didn't know him then. I think it's amazing. I mean, yeah, he did that. It's so brave to like, I agree. Just have that self-belief, even though it doesn't really sound like you have much self-belief.

24:37Freddie Abrahams: But he but and thank God he kept going because I mean, he really he's done some amazing jobs now. And to be honest, I think it's probably only going to get better for him. because of the age years and, you know, for men and women it is different. It is different. So, yeah, it is interesting how our careers have kind of, I guess they met in the middle at some point, but really it was when we, it's quite, we kind of got to the point how our careers started and we both were at Neves and that's actually kind of where we met when we were both at Neves.

25:16Daisy Pettinger: She'd be away on a job and a self-tape request would come in and for a brand like Aperol Spritz or whatever, or a casting, because this was pre-COVID casting, I'd go to the casting, like a million people, and Daisy would book the job while on another job doing it just with a self-tape. And jobs would, I can't say fall out of the sky, because they don't fall out of the sky because they're booking you because of your but but definitely I it was it was a real and not an eye-opener but it was kind of interesting being in a relation depressing being in a relationship with someone that was just working like like I said that I mean that I use that Aperol as an example because that actually happened you know I went to the casting and Daisy's on a job being paid to do another job but can squeeze in a quick self-tape and is booking this job in Italy for Aperol.

26:06Freddie Abrahams: I have got the same compare her as the drink so i think that did and not that she doesn't deserve it

26:13Daisy Pettinger: not that she doesn't deserve it but you know you know i'm not being i'm not i'm not exaggerating this so you know we this was in the first year of going out you know we might be going for a picnic in the park or something and we'd be in a sainsbury's on the self checker and daisy would just sort of be very like oh okay i'll pay for it and like because she actually knew i wasn't working and she was working and she i think it was i mean it's very sweet and i noticed it and she would sort of be quite dismissive of it. But I think it's just illustrative of like the difference in where we were at that time.

26:45Freddie Abrahams: I always believed in Fred. I always knew he could because he can act well when he gets past his. You just didn't believe in yourself enough. But there was a period, I think, well, I guess in the last, I guess I'd say the last three years, obviously, things have happened in the last three years where it's vice versa, where Fred, honestly, jobs just fall out of the sky for Fred and he's like, people are trying to book him all on the same day and I cannot book a single job. I'm like, please, somebody book me. I'll do it for free. So actually, that's a way it does really work for you guys together because I think, you know, if someone's just starting out and they don't know what jobs they're going to get and you're with somebody else and you're trying to meet your rent and stuff, to have you both in that situation is quite precarious.

27:33Freddie Abrahams: I guess it has kind of worked. One person at least with a kind of full-time job and a regular income. But actually, that's worked for you guys. And then, obviously, Arnie came along. Yeah, so we got married two and a half years ago. And Arnie was born at the beginning of...

27:53Daisy Pettinger: 2021. 24. 24, 24.

27:55Freddie Abrahams: 24, so he's just turned two. 21st. Yeah. Big change. And obviously for me, it was career-wise, I always knew it was going to be a lot different. Obviously being pregnant, I did work until I was about 20 weeks. And then obviously I couldn't get the size 8 jeans on anymore. I couldn't do it. Did you do much mortality work? Not much. I was actually surprised how little I did do.

28:26Daisy Pettinger: It was that timing of bumping the right size and Christmas holidays. It's tricky. You've got to be pregnant at the right time.

28:32Freddie Abrahams: And they want you looking very pregnant. And I was looking very pregnant at Christmas. So it was tricky. But I didn't do that much. I've done more maternity work when I wasn't pregnant. When you've happened to be, yeah. I mean, I've done loads with a fake bump. But yeah, which is ironic. And then obviously like navigating the first year with breastfeeding and working. It's it's and then you lose clients that you were previously working for a lot because obviously you're not available. You can't travel as much. So, yeah, it has been tricky. It's been tricky. But I feel actually this year has I've had a really positive start to this year, actually, work wise.

29:15And I think just starting to get back to where I was, I think, hopefully, fingers crossed.

29:21Freddie Abrahams: I mean, you never know. You never know. But I think so. So Fred, what was the first job that you did that made you think, okay, this is amazing? So I think as Daisies with Special K.

29:33Daisy Pettinger: There were some jobs early on, which I am sporty, that were like sporty jobs. And so just from that element felt great because it's like I'm getting paid to do something sporty or like running.

29:45Freddie Abrahams: For a brand or whatever that I really love.

29:49Daisy Pettinger: But whereas actually now, if I've got a job that's sporty, I'm more like, I could just rather be in the studio to protect me from the elements.

29:59Freddie Abrahams: Like going to run around a running track 25 times. Exactly.

30:02Daisy Pettinger: I'll do that in my own time, you know, when I can choose when to rest and when to stop. But I think like a lot of things, it's novelty that's exciting and when that wears off. But I did a job for a cruise liner, actually through Sander Reynolds, I think in 2019, which was amazing, which was actually something that stands out because it was six days. And crucially, like the schedule of the shoot was very relaxed and mapped out. And so we had time on and time off. And it was that great separation because models will tell you, you know, a shoot on paper might be great. But the reality is sunrise, sunset and on call every minute of the day, etc.

30:38Daisy Pettinger: That was just a great job because it was like being paid to go on a cruise with a bit of...

30:44Freddie Abrahams: And they'd take a few snaps. Yeah, exactly.

30:49Freddie Abrahams: So you're both at Neves now. So Daisy, tell us how you met. Well, I think we probably met a few times in the agency. But we were... I had a boyfriend at the time. And we... I think we were just friends, really.

31:04Daisy Pettinger: We met on... Oh, no, yeah, we met. Debenhams Econ. Yeah, we did meet at Debenhams Econ. I don't think it's different now. Debenhams used to be based out in where their warehouses were in Peterborough. And I met Daisy on my first day there.

31:19Freddie Abrahams: I mean, yeah, we knew it. We met each other then. And then we, I guess, we had a few mutual friends. And then when we really actually got to know each other, it was probably the next year in, we both did a season in Cape Town. There was a big group of us there that we all kind of knew each other. And then we all hung out a lot. So we really became good friends in Cape Town. But I still had a different boyfriend. Fred was doing his own thing, I'm sure. And so, yeah, that's probably when we really, really got to know each other. So we did know each other for a while before we became romantically involved.

31:56Freddie Abrahams: So it wasn't even in Cape Town that you became romantically involved? So we've done a season in Cape Town.

32:02Daisy Pettinger: We literally became friends there. And because, you know, it's quite a small bubble out there, especially when you're there for two months. It's not like being in London, which is a vast city. You're all kind of in the same area. So you end up hanging out with people and you can really forge quite a lot of friendships. But when I went to Cape Town that season, I went because I had just experienced a really like bad year in terms of work. I barely worked. The agency I had was a good agency, but I just got lost. They had lots of guys like me and I just got lost and I wasn't working. So I went there just to try and test because I heard that's what you do.

32:40Daisy Pettinger: They had an agency, one of their agencies came out to scout at the agency I was at in London and were happy to have me. They weren't a big agency from Cape Town. I took up the opportunity and that really was like the last time I have to go there and get some images and then come back and sign with hopefully another agency. I had to try and I did and I came back and I walked into Next which at the time I mean they asked very big agency and I got signed by them and I thought okay that's a further example of like okay so someone sees something in me like this is it like and from here on I am going to be a full-time model and I am going to make it in fact I actually thought that moment was kind of the

33:22Freddie Abrahams: start of making it your pivotal moment I thought that at the time I remember meeting Fred as a friend we were still friends for a coffee the morning after he'd gone I think he'd gone to the to next and got your book and it was in the other days we had a book and he met me with his little next book and I was like oh my god you know well done like it was you know exciting it was yeah it was because they were you know a high high caliber agency but but again they had you know they have

33:53Daisy Pettinger: they had serious I got lost I got you know I was I got lost and I understood and I understood I understand why I got lost because because there was nothing particularly great about me and

34:06Freddie Abrahams: no but I'm serious like Daisy's eye rolling no no they had models they had models with experience

34:11Daisy Pettinger: and confidence and really like I could you know I could I knew how to do a shoot but I wasn't you know I had so such few hours in the context of my career today under my belt that I just wasn't it wasn't natural to me and I couldn't go to a car I still felt like I was faking it like I really

34:25Freddie Abrahams: did like you have like imposter syndrome going I think the thing is I mean don't we all but like it is you did feel like you're faking it but everyone is fake yeah and like and I think that absolutely do you know that's something that I've I've learned doing this podcast like really talking to people and you realize that everyone's the same everyone's just a human being doing the best they can do and they've fallen into something and they've just worked hard and they've kept at it and they've been consistent and but you do but I understand what Fred's saying because as a model you do a lot of it is like you just have to kind of just go for it and you know walking into a casting walking into an agency you have to just be confident even if you're not confident because it's all about impressions because actually it's all kind of just like quite I mean we always say it's like emperor's clothing anyway like it's kind of and so I think actually probably when we met was around this you know and when we started seeing each other around this time that fez confidence wasn't that great even though it's crazy because I mean I'm biased but you gain

35:32Daisy Pettinger: confidence through through experience I just think you just gain it through experience but

35:36Freddie Abrahams: the thing is you do gain confidence through it's about validation by booking because it is like if someone wants to spend money hiring you because of the way you look and who you are etc then obviously you know it's like when you have a barren period of work and you're not working and you feel like you cannot book anything and it goes you know everyone has every model has that yeah it's like are you kidding I've got like three options on one day surely I'll book one of them no I don't book any of them you get really even I get it all the time when you know I've been doing it for over 20 years, you would have thought like I'd learned by now that like, that you just need to eye roll and move on.

36:16Freddie Abrahams: I'm a good model. People, you know, I have enough history to tell me that like, I can do this, but still it happens. And I'm like, you know, and then it's really difficult to get the momentum back and walk into that casting and do the self tape and, you know, believe that, yeah, actually you should be booking me for this. And that's what you kind of have to That's the energy you need. And I think it's really hard to get that if you very rarely have that validation.

36:47Daisy Pettinger: It's a self-perpetuating thing. You work a lot and then that builds more work and you're just in the flow of it. You're not overthinking it.

36:56Freddie Abrahams: I mean, it's a really unusual career because there's often, you know, you haven't got that kind of clear path and you haven't got the stability. And that's, I think, for some people that wouldn't ever work. It must have felt difficult having modelling as your main career at some point. At several points. I think that's the thing. It's an amazing career and my God, it has given me, I wouldn't change it. It's given me an amazing life up until now. I mean, I've travelled a lot. The people I've met, the lifestyle it has afforded me in terms of the freedom. we don't work every day. Sometimes we don't work every week.

37:40Freddie Abrahams: But obviously, it's amazing. It's great. We get paid very well for what we do. And it's not rocket science, you know, like if it's not, sometimes it's not easy, but it's not the hardest job in the world. But obviously, like with every career, with that comes, yeah, the instability, the logistics, the, you know, having to miss things like you know family things or birthdays or holidays or whatever because you can't say no to work when it's offered to you really I have done it a couple of times but only you know it because you never know when the next job's going to come and even if you are really busy it happens so often where it's like more to Fred now but where he's I mean he's Fred works a lot he's really like in demand and he'll be spending two weeks here there and everywhere never at home and you know get quite like stressed and frazzled like never being having any time to himself but you just have to kind of remind each other that maybe next week you're going to have like two weeks of completely nothing so like I mean like yesterday I woke up I didn't have anything this week and now on Thursday I'm going to Hamburg for three hours yeah I mean it's quite stressful but it's like but then you know I didn't know when I woke up yesterday morning that that was going to happen I thought it was just going to be you know so you have to be someone that is happy just to up and go as well I think yeah you have to be flexible you find order within the chaos I think

39:13Daisy Pettinger: someone says to me the other is it not like oh being having to suddenly be here yeah because Freddie, you strike me as being a very organized kind of person. I am. And obviously with this job, you could be at very short notice. But like I said to this person the other day, you just find an order within the chaos. And the alternative of that is finding a really, really structured job, which for me, I would find too boring. So it's either it's one or the other. I'd rather find structure within the chaos than have something too structured. And there's no flexibility within that.

39:53Freddie Abrahams: So tell us about some of the most incredible jobs that you guys have done and also some of the worst or some of the ones that haven't gone to plan.

40:02Daisy Pettinger: I had a job for a running brand in Namibia and Cape Town. So it was like on the sand. It was just quite surreal. And I had a job a couple of years ago. So it was a car commercial shot out in Dubai over four nights. It wasn't necessarily at the time like that enjoyable because it was four days overnight. And so you're quite disorientated and often alone, which might sound like an odd thing to say, but you're being filmed on your, you're quite isolated. You're not really working with anyone. But definitely at the time I was still conscious, you know, And I'm going to bed at like 7 a.m. every day and then being picked up at like 3 p.m.

40:45Daisy Pettinger: It's just all quite disorientating.

40:46Freddie Abrahams: And you're also slightly out of your time zone because you're in Dubai. Completely, exactly.

40:50Daisy Pettinger: Yeah. But I was very conscious at the time that if my modelling or whatever career ends tomorrow, this is definitely something that I will always like look back on as I did that car commercial, You know, as in, you know, police escort and escorting us through like having the, you know, having roads locked off for us. It just all very, you know, nighttime in Dubai, it just all felt very like this is what a car commercial is. So definitely that. And on a slightly different level, just I think I did. I only did one day of e-commerce for Hugo Boss out in Germany. and just seeing the scale of their setup having done e-com for many years before that many brands of some decent sizes nothing was as impressive of seeing their headquarters as that it was like a mini city um yeah it was just the scale of it just kind of blew everything out the water because often even if you work for brands you know work for barb or mns you'll do your e-com it's just kind of a makeshift studio set up in quite a modest headquarters.

41:58Daisy Pettinger: Yeah, yeah. Or somewhere industrial. And there it was very like Hugo Boss. It was consistent with what you would perceive as the brand.

42:08Freddie Abrahams: It's funny. I think probably what we see is the kind of jobs that we want to book has definitely changed because, yeah, back in the day it would be, you know, I would love to book. I mean, I did a commercial for Heineken in Hong Kong, and it was 10 days in Hong Kong, but it was night shoots. And I was in the first scene and the last scene, because the whole story of the commercial was that the guy saw me, and then he spent the whole commercial trying to find me again. So I had eight days in Hong Kong in a five-star hotel with nothing to do with awful i was being paid for it was i mean amazing yeah it was amazing i didn't you know it was incredible i mean how lucky but obviously that kind of job now is a little bit more difficult and yes lovely i wouldn't mind if someone wanted to put me on a job like that it would i'd actually rather just do would you make it work of course you have to but ideally i'd rather do eight days of econ up the road so you can yeah because it's just easier and logistically and I don't yeah and I don't really want to be away from Arnie for that long and um so yeah it's interesting and I guess also talking about nice jobs obviously the ones where you travel because I've been lucky enough to see like so much of the world places that I would never have gone otherwise without work and obviously all paid for which is amazing but also the nice jobs I guess are ones that you think that kind of have a little bit more kudos so like the more fashion-y stuff like I shop with Rankin a few times I think Fred you have as well and some fashion campaigns we both did many campaigns for Barber, Hackett so the nicer brands that you're like oh actually you know what I am

43:59Daisy Pettinger: actually a proper model there is often the there is often though the the bigger the client often the more the greater the anti-climax in a way because you because you get because you almost

44:09Freddie Abrahams: more expectation well yeah and you're and you're just sometimes but yeah you're a very small part

44:14Daisy Pettinger: of the shoot rather than if you work for maybe a smaller brand where you're kind of the main you know you're being quite so you're when you work for some of the bigger brands you're just a really it's there's all these other things going on and you are just a tiny piece which is fine but as in in your head you've usually got quite built up because I'm working for this big brand and actually there's just a bunch of creative directors there on their laptops and kind of not really speaking to you and getting on with their admin and stuff.

44:39Freddie Abrahams: So they're not always the most enjoyable.

44:41Daisy Pettinger: No, because it's nice to have nice interactions with people and sometimes you only get those bigger interactions on the smaller jobs, I suppose.

44:49Freddie Abrahams: Yeah. And in terms of like terrible jobs, I think anything where the elements are involved.

44:55Daisy Pettinger: Yeah, the cold. it's a basic human need isn't it it's a basic man's man's story look we're pretty hardy I would

45:03Freddie Abrahams: say I'm I would say I am really quite hardy because I'm quite often in a field with my like auburn hair and like with a horse in the background in the middle of winter and I've been in the sea in on the south coast of England in February I've been in the sea I will do it if I'm being paid yeah like i'm not going blue but i think that is i think that's probably what makes it can make a job hard yeah hard because it's just if you're wet and cold and there's nowhere to warm up and there's you know it very much the production value on jobs varies massively so yeah some jobs there is all the things thrown at you to keep you warm and some jobs there is literally like oh have you got a coat you know like yeah the thing is that that's actually a point that being

45:54Daisy Pettinger: in a relationship as two models we we totally get if one of us comes home from a job we understand the exact type of um day it's been as in daisy might say i was just one of those you know it was it's it's 10 degrees so it's actually not really apparent to everyone that's behind the camera how cold it is because 10 degrees is not like oh you almost want it to be like and also they're sat there in their great big clothes and jumpers. And you've got a T-shirt on.

46:19Freddie Abrahams: It's like, can you just look a bit warmer, please?

46:21Daisy Pettinger: You kind of want it to be cold. You kind of want it to be minus five. Because then everyone's really aware. Because then it's like, oh, it's really obvious. But yeah, I think it's just when it's really cold because you're...

46:31Freddie Abrahams: And then you don't want to seem like you're a wimpy whiny kind of...

46:34Daisy Pettinger: And we don't. And that's why we've been doing it so long, probably, because we just get on with it because ultimately the day will end and you'll be fine.

46:39Freddie Abrahams: And they can be very long days. It can be very long days. And obviously, like, it's fine, but sometimes the days are, you know, very, it's very early call time and then very late and to keep the energy up. And I think what's difficult is often you're waiting for a lot of that. So you kind of have to be, conserve your energy and then be very energetic when you're on set and which is tiring. But, I mean, in the great scheme of things, we can't really complain. I don't think it's not, it's not, it's not, it's not the hardest job in the world. Exactly.

47:12Daisy Pettinger: It's a great job and it's easy. The only thing that ever makes it difficult really is the cold, which you can't often do anything about. And so you just have to get on with it. And on those days, it's just kind of like you've got to see us. I'm just doing manual labour. I've just got to get through it. I guess the other thing is also that like, you know, you're meeting every job, you're meeting a load of new people that you don't know.

47:33Freddie Abrahams: So it's basically like every day is a first day on a new job. And all the different personalities, all the egos, all the, you know, so many different people and you have to immediately kind of get on with everyone and figure everything out and where you, okay, I need to be a bit more like this today. and I need to, you know, it's actually, I would think it's a skill that can be quite tiring as well because you do have to be on. And especially on a lot of these jobs where, you know, if you're away on a trip, breakfast, lunch and dinner every day with clients, it can be very, very tiring. When actually you just want to be in your room with a movie and a pizza.

48:14Freddie Abrahams: Because the only time that you're off, you know, say it's a three day job, the only time you're office when you're asleep and you have to be professional basically even if you're relaxing having dinner you're still with the client who's paying your your wage so it's that can be hard sometimes and is it nice working together as a couple or as a family with Arnie I think the

48:35Daisy Pettinger: family thing you can leave for us for a moment we'll come back to um I think yeah I think working with Daisy it was it's always very enjoyable and we I mean well that was one of the things coming out of lockdown we worked together we had already worked together plenty of times but we worked together even more because the social you had to be in the same bubble social bubble so clients couldn't really just book boy x girl y but i i yeah i always i mean it's great working with daisy because it's it's um it's just very for a start it's very easy from shot one you're relax you're not having to warm into things you can get what the client wants straight away which is great just You're using up less energy trying to create what ultimately the client's put you for.

49:21Freddie Abrahams: I mean, we've both been in the situation many times where, you know, hi, nice to meet you, I'm Daisy. And then two minutes later, okay, so we're just going to have you nose to nose. Or, you know, I've been literally on set and I've literally met the guy and first shot, I have to kiss him. It's awkward. It's never sexy. see um it's awkward and i'm sure fred i'm sure fred feels i hope no i'm sure he does i know he does but you know and not so much now but you know year in 10 15 years ago it it was a little bit more relaxed in that sense of like you know casting sometimes you'd have to be intimate with someone in a casting which is kind of wild people are a lot more aware now that i think years ago it would just people wouldn't think about how it made you guys feel doing that i've been in castings where like on the spot they've been like could you just um and kiss like they could it just would not happen now but um yeah there's been there's been nothing different like um different strands

50:31Daisy Pettinger: so now daisy and i work together it's quite nice because we actually have a day together which is rare because obviously we're not with our son.

50:39Freddie Abrahams: It's all like date day.

50:42Daisy Pettinger: And certainly to begin with when we started working together, it was great because Daisy was like far more experienced than me and so I could almost lean into that a bit and kind of get through shoots like using some of her experience and kind of it would make me feel less, I guess, self-aware. and certainly some of the earlier brands we worked for together were like Barber. It was an example of a brand she had worked for a lot. She had a history with Barber and then we were booked as a couple. So then it was much easier for me to relax into that than if I had worked for Barber on my own.

51:20Freddie Abrahams: And then they started using Credo, not me. Oh.

51:33Freddie Abrahams: When we got married, we did have a photographer, but we didn't have like the, we just wanted kind of like very relaxed, like reportage style. But I think we both felt a bit awkward. He took us off for our little photo shoot. You felt like you were on a shoot. Because we were like, we can't actually do like a shoot because it's fake. Because at work, you know, even though we're a real couple, it's not, we don't run along like hand in hand like, it's fake. so like we didn't really know what to do for our wedding pictures because actually like

52:05Daisy Pettinger: it was yeah it was like being on a shoot it was like it felt like we're too aware of we're too

52:10Freddie Abrahams: because we don't look back at these photos like and knowing that we're just it's a performance portfolio shots because like because we could do it and they would be very nice and glossy but like

52:21Daisy Pettinger: it wouldn't we're too aware of the photographer being there yeah and which is why i quite like it There's the rare scenario where a photographer is at a party and he's got a picture of me with a friend and I don't know about it. And you don't know, absolutely. We know too much. Yeah, I know, it's true. I don't think about that.

52:40Freddie Abrahams: Whereas the rest of us are just trying consistently to get a picture that we look slightly like you guys.

52:49Daisy Pettinger: And on that note, with the Arnie thing, so that's why I feel, um i mean we had a job with arnie um a couple of months ago and we've probably only done bits and pieces with them up until that point but for me it was a moment where i actually yeah i don't know if it was a turning point but i actually didn't enjoy it because i felt like it was too manipulative of like it felt fake as in because obviously they want you want a happy child in the photo so you can do all these things to make them happy but and so because because you're doing it primarily for the client or the thing that didn't sit easy with me because it just felt like

53:26Freddie Abrahams: you're almost maybe giving him mixed messages or i just felt like i just felt wrong to make

53:32Daisy Pettinger: my son smile for money i know it's being a bit too like reductive but like it just felt when he's at the age he doesn't really understand he's not choosing that himself at that age but i think

53:41Freddie Abrahams: because we were we were both there it kind of we felt a little bit better but it was i think maybe again because we're in the industry we kind of know the ins and outs of it so much that like

53:54Daisy Pettinger: yeah i don't know we wouldn't have known this before before we started before and before we started working i say working with him it's like two-year-old boys if he knows what's happening but i think people often say on on jobs people say oh do you work with your do you work with your son or you're thinking that it's like somehow a magical experience and it's like the reality is we're being a parent and we're working that's way harder than just working or just being a parent yes there's money involved but that doesn't make it yeah but on the plus side he has probably got

54:25Freddie Abrahams: more money than me now and actually you said something to me earlier you saying you know now you've now you're a mom actually going to work it's like a day off yeah 100 it's because you so many people especially being a model because you get everything done for you it's actually quite yeah I mean we really have it easy we get everything booked for us everything you know everything we're asked what we want for lunch you know everything's you just have to get there really and then do your job on set but it's you know it's really definitely much easier than a day at home with Arnie I love him to bits but yeah yeah but you know having having this career it means that you guys can work I know he goes to nursery as well but you can actually make it work so that one of you's with him when he needs you and I do feel really strongly that like we are really lucky I mean Fred gets to spend so much more time with him than a lot of other fathers because he's not in the office you know five days a week I also like a lot of my friends work you know when their child is one they go back to work five days a week which is you know it's normal but like they're seeing them like one hour a day for getting them up and then bedtime and i think we're really lucky we get to see him so much more especially in these the best years apparently it's definitely it's definitely a juggling act which we've which we've

55:56Daisy Pettinger: got you we've worked out as as as um he's kind of got gotten older but um in the beginning i think it was difficult especially in the very early days when when when jobs were coming in for both of us and trying to work out can we can we feasibly do it but now we we are working out we just made it we've made it work really because you have to because because like daisy said if you if you kind of lose a client or unavailable for a client it might just be more than just that it might be

56:22Freddie Abrahams: you might and also with agents like you can only say no so many times before they stop asking it's it's and you have to be that's one of the biggest things about this job you have to be available and flexible yeah yeah absolutely and so yeah i think we thought before we had arnie like it's great because we're both freelance we're both you know actually we can just work it out it's logistically it's not that it's logistically it is it is tricky yeah but it's we we are we are getting there i think we've we've we're definitely much better now that that that point is the sort

56:59Daisy Pettinger: of thing naively before we had a baby we thought would be advantageous because we're both flexible but actually if one of you is in a structured stable nine to five that actually makes it easier because at least that person will always be able to do nursery collection or etc yeah like that day but because we might have scenarios, it doesn't happen that often but we could be booked on the same day out of London.

57:26Freddie Abrahams: And both of you have been in the industry, you know, for a long time now to see how things have changed. What do you think has changed the most since you first started working?

57:35Daisy Pettinger: Even in the 10 years I've been, 12 years I've been doing it, just the huge reduction in castings and that makes it even sound like there are castings now that there there are but but i doubt if i have one every three weeks i mean whereas before when i started you get might have two or

57:55Freddie Abrahams: three a day if you know how to hold yourself and you you're charismatic and you which i'm not suggesting we are but like i think i think i always did quite well in the room because i could kind of sell myself and even if I wasn't the tallest if I wasn't the prettiest if I didn't have the best figure I felt I could kind of convince a client like I'm great to work with and I'm going to bring some personality because of course modeling is all about what you look like but it is personality as well right it's it's and you want to come across as someone that people want to work with because if you're going to be spending four days with someone you want them to actually be nice nice and like okay they're going to be fun helpful and and do what we need them to do so i think that's what is is more difficult now because self-tapes are just it's so hard to

58:48Daisy Pettinger: get that across years ago we would have friends in town you'd meet at castings and you'd have this massive sense of like community yeah and it was it was really nice and like i said it's hard to it's hard to look at it that clearly because we're at a different stage of life now we've got a baby you know people have children and they've got commitments and they're not going to just mooch around in town hours on end but um still it was just nice you'd have like interactions with people you kind of build up friendships bit by bit and you kind of chat and then you do things and just I don't know what it's like for say you're in your mid-20s now or you're 30 I just don't know what what that landscape looks like but definitely it was it was you know and obviously

59:29Freddie Abrahams: you know Instagram was a huge a huge thing that's changed everything because less in terms of like commercials but in terms of like you know stills all the fashion brands the e-com all that stuff you know people can be booked direct from Instagram now and there's you know when I started modeling it was like I'm like five for eight and a half and there was like discussion like oh she's not that tall and now you know like there's models it's really regular to have a model who's on set that's five foot six doesn't matter like so that just you know i guess it was more of an exclusive group of people competition yeah there's a lot more competition but it's that's a good thing you know in terms of the industry it is a good thing because that you know everyone is represented now it's yeah it's just totally it's just totally different are totally different.

1:00:21Freddie Abrahams: If someone's starting out in the industry who might be thinking about modelling as a career, what advice would you give them? I'd say that you really have to have a thick skin. And like, I have been doing this a long time. I'm confident. I'm very comfortable with myself. And I know I'm a good model. I know I am. But I still doubt myself sometimes because it's, you know, you can't book every job. And sometimes you don't book any jobs. and it's it's hard and also it's even harder when you've got the pressure of like having to pay a mortgage like it's not easy so I I would now and I think the way that the industry's changed is that I think I was lucky at when I started that I was able to only be a model but I think it's quite rare and I think it's even rarer now so I think if you do want to do it I think you do need to be prepared to have something else alongside it just for your mental health as well because then you're not just waiting for the phone to ring you're not relying on that soul thing and it's not stressful because you've always got the other thing that you're doing alongside it but i think that's you know that's quite common now that most people have something

1:01:27Daisy Pettinger: else they're doing about you fred what would you advise well i actually remember um a few years ago if i keep talking about the same job when i was on this cruise job it was with two two older chaps um a guy called gary greenwood who's probably early 60s and a french guy very distinguished both silver foxes obviously been modeling both of them for 40 years and i said oh like you know i was aware it sounded a bit um uh cliche but i was just like you know i'm in the presence of a lot of a lot of years of modeling experience here what advice would you would you give me and they said just being available that's that's it and and actually up until that point that that is always why i'd persevered because and not try to maybe get a get back in with my boss and do bits and pieces because I just wanted to be as available as possible to give it as much chance.

1:02:17Freddie Abrahams: And that's actually really good advice because as an agent, you know, that's the thing. You know, you can't kind of, and responsive as well. You know, if we're calling, it's like you can't come back three days later and expect the job still to be available. I would also say that's another piece of advice that I would give is in terms of agents, like it's a really important relationship and you don't work for the agent. they don't work for you you work together it's a partnership it's and and having that like relationship and and mutual respect is really important and to just be clear and honest with each other and also be professional because because it's a profession it's not like a little hobby like you if you want to be successful it's a professional profession you have to take things seriously you have to look after yourself you have to be disciplined in that way and keep everything you know reply to all your emails get digital updates all that you know keep your photos together get you know turn up on time all that stuff it is really important because you won't you know if you're really really really really bloody gorgeous you might get away with it for a while but like I think in the end people just won't stand for it if you're if you're a bit crap

1:03:41Freddie Abrahams: who would you love to work with what's the brand you haven't worked for that you'd love to gosh that's that is a hard question i mean honestly now i am really just like like i said it really changes what you what you want to do um but i would just i i honestly think that like the nice regular clients that are easy to get to and nice days nice to be around I think it's very boring and middle-aged but that's actually what you know that's actually what you want so what about you Fred?

1:04:15Daisy Pettinger: There aren't I mean I'm not really that into fashion but I'm into I'm into sport and I'm into movement and things like that so I'm just thinking it's more like brands that I would a lot I kind of align myself with naturally because that would be a natural fit because it wouldn't feel like work it would feel like you know you're literally endorsing endorsing yeah i guess we're kind of realistic enough to know like oh yeah there are

1:04:37Freddie Abrahams: lots of brands i'd love to work for but i'm pretty sure prada is not going to be knocking on my door anytime soon or you know you never say never but um i think we've we you know we've done we've both done a lot of great work for a lot of great brands really and i'm quite happy with what I've done so far. But I think, I think as, for me anyway, maybe as I get older, I'd like to hope that I age naturally and gracefully and maybe there'll be some nice skincare campaigns. And maybe you can bring that cruise the whole way around and go on a nice saga one. Well, do you know what, actually, yeah, do you know what, actually, we haven't really, we've done a couple of trips together, but I would really quite like to do some nice like tourie in the Maldives or something.

1:05:25Freddie Abrahams: Hosting hotel jobs. Yeah.

1:05:26Daisy Pettinger: Exactly. They're always nice. So I can't give you specific brands but it's always nice working for like a nice hotel or something where it's just nice. You're going to have a nice time. You know, you're trying to convey relaxing. Great, I can relax.

1:05:38Freddie Abrahams: Well, I think you're both absolutely lovely and I've just loved being invited to your home and being able to sit and hear your story. So Fred and Daisy, thank you so much. Thank you. It was great. It was really nice. Thank you.

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