Danni Bramall, Brand and E-commerce Strategist

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, the Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year in business. I'm in Manchester today with Danni Bramall, a brand and e-commerce strategist who's worked across the worlds of fashion, retail and online commerce, helping brands understand how they show up, sell and connect with consumers in an increasingly digital space. Danny has seen firsthand how the industry has moved from catalogues and in-store retail to online shopping and now AI-driven content.

0:45E-commerce is where a huge proportion of modelling work sits today, and it's also the area being disrupted most rapidly by technology. This conversation is about how we got here, what's changing and what that means for brands, creatives and models alike.

1:08Danny Brammell from Pretty You London, welcome to the Business of Modelling podcast. Thanks for having me Tessa, nice to be here. Before we get into work and e-commerce and AI, I want to start with you. So what first drew you into fashion and branding and creative work? Like, what's your background? Blimey. I mean, I suppose that is a big question. I think ultimately, and it's ironic, isn't it, how certain things sort of come about. Me sort of on my way here today from the office and WhatsAppping my dad, who was sending me old pictures of sketches that I'd done when I was 10 and 11. So they made me laugh and amused me quite a bit on the tram, you know, because they're just looking at sort of old sketches of designs that I was doing and all sort of wedding dress designs, the big puffy sort of, you know, shoulders, the Princess Diana-esque type sort of wedding dresses, you know, and it brings back all those memories of that's what I was really, that's what I loved, you know.

2:07Were you brought up in Manchester? I was actually born in Wigan, but then moved away from Wigan and studied at York College. so we moved to York um just because my sister she was pregnant with my niece and we decided to be closer to her and yeah and didn't really know at that time that fashion could be a thing to study or to work in I just I hadn't had that connection it just I had these sketches and this passion and this obsession you obviously just had that from when you were just really interested in totally I mean, my dad, we were brought up in a house that was very creative. You know, the whole sort of, well, both sides, really.

2:49You know, my grandma was a brilliant amateur sort of artist. That's what she did in her spare time. And her sketches are brilliant. And I have some of those still now. My dad was also super talented as well. And so come from a family, really, of musicians and artists and actors and dancers and all that sort of stuff. So I think it's just kind of, sometimes it's just in the blood, I guess. And I guess if it's something that was talked about at home and things, then you just, I guess, are naturally just drawn to that and more interested. I don't really remember the sort of TV being on too much. It was more music, right?

3:24So music was a really big thing in our house. and I just remember just looking through you know album covers of Grace Jones and just being absolutely blown away you know album covers of Blondie and just being mesmerized by these amazing album covers of these beautiful women you know in these gorgeous fashion so I think that's probably where it started plus my grandma was a beautiful dresser and she took absolute pride in how she looked so I think all of those things sort of drew me into design and fashion So what did you study at York? So I did my ND in fashion design, women's wear and technology and then did the HND and was lucky enough to have some amazing tutors there and lecturers.

4:09And they'd really pushed for York College to be on the map. And so I was lucky enough to show in London Graduate Fashion Week twice, once with York College and then once again when I went to London College of Fashion afterwards. would so at that point uh fashion designer was was the thing that you were yes yeah very much so yeah very much so yeah so that was it was all around design and product design and women's wear fashion um mainly and then sort of went on to work for some amazing companies spent some time at Stella McCartney's design room for example which was awe-inspiring as you can imagine in around that time and do you do they do graduate fashion week then like they do now and do you remember your first collection I do I mean I remember my first collection at York College which was based on old Etonians oh wow okay yeah and lots of sort of wools and and tweeds and and sort of crisp sort of pure white cottons and pleated cottons and that sounds beautiful yeah I still think about that it's funny isn't it it's sort of how things kind of collide because it was literally the only the other week I was cleaning out the office at home and came across one of my designs from that old Etonian collection that was in the press at the time and I remember showing my partner going wow look at this you know do you remember like this is so many years ago so yeah so I still remember that and then the collection I did at London was was all around a Russian sort of female figure type from a rich Russian family that escapes I'm thinking Melania now yeah and then and then unfortunately goes to a darker side of life and so the collection started I know what was I thinking anyway um but yeah it was all around this kind of you know this female I suppose it was trying to emulate how life can suddenly change and and how as a woman that you can be sort of more exposed to the good and bad really of the world and so the collection started off very much with all these gorgeous satins and silks and and then sort of you know it was all champagne colours and rich colours and then went quite dark you know and sort of more kind of rustic kind of Russian industrial type sort of garments um so it was almost telling the story I was going to say that really the story is kind of woven into the you know the fashion yeah and that must be really important when you're thinking about collections yeah and it still is it's storytelling is is crucial and more than ever you know I think with the world that we're living in with obviously the fake news and people are you know we're exhausted right because we're already overwhelmed with so much content being thrown at us that now we have to think of multiple things whilst consuming content which is is this a logistic company is it you know is it legit because anyone can look good can't they online yeah our brains are having to work triple hard because we're trying to decipher for whether it's legit and authentic.

7:05And then it's also, is it fake? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Is it fake being made to look authentic? Yeah, is it AI? Is it authentic? Is it fake news? Can I trust this resource? You know, so your brain's working overtime in literally, you know, seconds to try and figure out what content you're consuming. And that's, you know, that's sort of us looking at it with quite a lot of life experience. When you think of young people that don't have that life experience, you're right it's so important that we keep that human side more important and yeah I'm very passionate about this and you know you know and then there's other sides to it as well you know we've got to sort of be mindful of commerciality right and the position that I'm in is I obviously have pressure on budgets and things like anybody does when you know you're driving content and you're driving you know production but you know and so you have to consider ways of saving money and we're making the budget work as hard as possible.

8:03But equally, we've also got an incredible responsibility now, I feel, to drive human first as much as possible because what's the alternative? The alternative is that we allow this AI, CGI-driven, fuelled world into dominating all of us and all of our digital landscape. What does that mean when it's not being governed and there is no due diligence behind it, it means that we have less control, right? And we can be sort of influenced in many, many ways that's not always going to be positive. In fact, probably leaning more against the negative. We think we have a responsibility to hold on to reality.

8:49The best way to sort of give this example, I always think, is a chef at a restaurant. you know they have to create the best possible dish but they have to turn covers for x amount of profit so they have to find the right ingredients at the right cost with the right taste that's going to go with the right dish and I think that's the same for a designer or I think that's the same in the fashion industry yeah it's a perfect mix of everything but it's so expensive as well to to launch a collection I mean they have to have the right support don't they oh yeah The finance, it's, I guess, would you, what was your very early career like when you came out of LCF?

9:29It was definitely more on the design side. And I moved over to Barcelona and spent some time in Barcelona. And when I came back, my career, because this is quite often that happens as well. I feel that a lot of creatives sort of, you know, do design. They create garments and they're creating a line or, you know, whatever they're sort of doing, whatever aspects of the creative spectrum they're on. they lean into more of the advertising and marketing side because you kind of want to know what's happening with your products or how it's being marketed why is it selling why is it not selling what's the feedback is it being returned you know you have all these questions of how your product's being received how popular it is with the audience and sometimes or it was you know very segmented I feel as in now it's a lot more blended because we have loads of insight tools to hand now so we can see but we didn't we didn't we didn't back then so I started I kind of fell into more of the marketing and campaign side of things and it was around that time you know that digital started to come into the fold I remember working build building an e-commerce site for the first time and it was the unknown working with affiliate marketing seo conversations you know it was a murky world because I didn't really know what it meant I suppose we back then we were a bit like we are now with AI weren't we we suddenly had this yes worldwide web and yeah digital photography and all of that yeah you know and the phillips the old school were going oh that's never gonna work that's never gonna take on it's like well we kind of gotta you know we gotta move forwards with it we've got to understand it in order to sort of manage it the best we can you know and and and so that's why I always say my career is a bit like a snake really because I kind of started off here and then found myself lifting the bonnet up and being really interested in how the engine works yeah yeah and then sort of um like I say then went into sort of understanding how websites were built and how we trade on websites and how we how we can sell other people's products as well and how do we build a blog what does blog blogging look like and at that time as well blogging was huge you know I remember going to London London Fashion Week because of the blog because the blog I was writing and that was with What Are You Wearing the company I worked for Susie Bubble for example who I still follow to this day you know she she was part of the she was leading the way and they were the early creators weren't they the bloggers absolutely and they were front row yeah that's almost the bit between where it used to be all the magazine editors and the bloggers starting on that's all the influences on the front row isn't it well you're a blogger what you know and it was like but now of course look where we are with with you know content creation so yeah so I guess my career then sort of moved from creating and designing da da da and then it was like okay how is all of this being marketed how can we be bigger better how do we shout louder how do we lean into that's like just really interested you yeah because I think you you need that 360 yeah and and then I sort of fell or not fell but sort of then started to wonder well what's the foundations of what we market upon right and that's brand and that's brand strategy and I and I guess that's how in the last sort of 10-15 years I've been brand director head of brand roles because being head of brand it touches everything yeah I mean I love that I find that so interesting and I think people always say that to me is because I run a model agency like oh you must be really interested in fashion and I'm a bit like actually no I'm not it's actually the brand I love it's the you can you touch everything don't you when you're looking at brand you know it's about how how it works right from people think oh branding oh that's just a nice logo I mean oh it's not yeah no it's not I mean that's such a misconception isn't it and you know what I have noticed as well is sort of you know the sort of trends and around LinkedIn and everyone seems to be a brand expert suddenly the last five years I feel like it's a real buzzword and and strategy is kind of bounded about a lot as well everything's kind of all encompassing under the word strategy and of course it's not you know that one size fits all this is where we're at now with the danger of so many brands sort of popping up on socials right on TikTok and Instagram and people just thinking that it's really easy well I guess they haven't got the trust have they it's all about the trust the brand trust and yeah longevity and people recognizing and yeah and that takes a lot of foundational work and sort of throwing up a brand and just hoping that it sticks I mean that's this that's the short way of having a boom and bust brand and business if you want to build and you want to build sort of organically and steady and the right trajectory it's doing things right the first time around you know um and that takes it you know it takes um lots of consideration and this is the this is the danger that we're in is that kind of blanket approach you just mentioned them with AI just putting loads of money behind ads loads of money behind it I mean look at Timu and the likes right they'll just build lots of AI content of products that actually haven't been made and are fake products and they'll test the market and see if it's going to be you know a strong seller and then they'll make it so it's almost the other way around also you've also got ai or companies um basically building fake fronts haven't you on existing companies pretending to be existing companies saying oh we're doing a closing down sale and then it's linking people they think they're going on to one site that they know and actually they've built a ghost site that they're selling completely different products on yeah it's faceless isn't it yeah it's like who are you gonna sue yeah exactly you're gonna take to court yeah so yeah you do have to be super super careful and there isn't all you know one size fits all and it is a full circle you know of sort of a brand being genuine and real and having that tactility and having that human aspect behind it we're going to yearn for that and we're going to need that to still be around and present

15:39so i recently joined um pretty london and part of the pretty amazing group um pre pre joining pretty london i was working with john lewis so part well working with their cnc creative and content team so working with the art directors there and the producers and seeing how important um human values are and quality and service you know and that real luxury content output for john it was super super you know amazing experience I mean they are just they are just an incredible brand aren't they they are you know and the creative directors completely elevated them from a visual standpoint right and and so yeah so then I started with Pretty You London as head of brand and you know there's what they you know as a company been absolutely amazing success to date but so much opportunity so much opportunity which is why I why I joined them We as a brand, we are about natural fabrications, natural cottons, you know, looking at vegan silks, working with Portuguese factories, looking at working now with launching a linen range as well.

16:49And we are sustainable as a brand as well. We're not quite B Corp, but that's in line of view for sure. but this is where it's about celebrating the natural world bringing the outdoors in working with natural fabrications in order to sort of feel the best that we can that we can feel and this is the natural world the human world this is where we sit as a brand and do you feel that there's a responsibility on brands to do things the best way they can for the environment because It must be very difficult to have control over your entire supply chains if you're a big company. OK, the first answer is yes, they do have a responsibility.

17:33It's, you know, if you are, if you were a decent brand that wants to build for longevity and if you want to build loyalty with your audience, then your audience will expect you to take on that responsibility. if you are a gargantuan type juggernaut business of the world right there there isn't there isn't that desire there because ultimately they're just commercially minded and they're just it's just mass it's just volume as much as possible machines and things exactly so you have to think about what's important to you as a brand and if you are sort of small to medium size if you're an SME you do need to have those the right values in place because you just you won't keep hold of your customer and they they expect that from you as well so i i don't think there's any brand now that should be launching without sustainability in mind i think that was the case probably five six seven years ago and those that did uh you know are the ones that are doing well and supply chain wise again it's i suppose that's down to the size of your business but it's just working with reputable suppliers you know when working with factories that are taking a lot of our suppliers a lot of our factories for example do have the certification you know around sort of what they're using fabric wise how they're reducing water for example i think you've just got to be as close to your supply chain as you possibly can and choose wisely tell me what you remember of the industry before everything went online.

19:08Print was a big, big part of my inspiration for sure. You know, talking about, you know, the record sleeves earlier, you know, catalogues were a thing of how we shopped, wasn't it, right? And print advertising as well, you know, was... Well, print is definitely coming back. Magazines, billboards, yeah. Yeah, print is certainly coming back and you're seeing this more and more and I'm here for it because, I mean, look, look, I've never got out of the habit of buying a physical paper. You know, my partner laughs at me because I'll say, have you seen this article in The Guardian or whatever? And he'll say, I read it on my phone this morning in bed.

19:44I can't do that. And I'm like, oh, that's not fun though, is it? But yeah, print is definitely coming back. You know, we see it now. I mean, was it WGSN or Pinterest that launched their trends? Well, they've all launched trends recently as they would in January, but there was one, I'm sure it was, it might be WGSN, and it was all around you know the gen z now are going back to that more physical world right so they are having a digital detox they are monitoring how much time they spend on the phone you know they are going to vintage shops more we've definitely seen the second-hand industry and resale and luxury resale boom in the last 12 months you know look at ebay what ebay have done as well they've put all their money you know in that side of the business which is great to see when it comes to real and realness and having that sort of physical product i think gen gen z hurrah you know are bringing it back bringing it brilliant because it's gone almost full circle with um yeah i mean we won't get to catalogue era again actually with the glossy pages and you know but there's a nice balance I think isn't there absolutely and do you remember the early days of e-com like what was the initial shift like when brands started taking that sort of online retail seriously because obviously until that time you know footfall on the high street definitely it started to it did start to dwindle didn't it I think there was still a there was still a good hold on high street around that time I think people to start with didn't realize didn't believe that you could actually buy something without trying it on for a long time did they so much yeah it was I'm you know I'm trying to think I guess I mean what are you wearing was the first sort of website that I that I was obviously part of building and managing and and and marketing and it was it was almost a bit there was a there was a sort of a thrill really of the fact that you could have both yeah is what I recall it was like oh we could have this and that you know we can have bricks and mortar and we can also be online this is great this is going to double turnover when of course what we then saw is one leaned far more into it leaned more into digital and of course bricks and mortar started to really suffer but I guess there was a sort of a trust issue I mean everything there always is with human nature right and something something new like there is now with AI like you said earlier um yeah but it was it was very basic wasn't it I mean yeah back to the UX side of things on those first early websites it was just so clunky the intellect just wasn't there at all was it really but um we've definitely got more savvy with with because our lives are more online now of course than ever before I mean mobiles as well I mean what an advertising tool that is you know back in the day we'd be sort of fighting for somebody's attention you know from a billboard from an out of home point of view and now we're literally carrying advertising around in our hands but then there's so much competition now as we touched on you know and you have not always not all good you know whereas I suppose those brands and companies that could afford to advertise back then were all good yeah because they had to be because to afford to do it yeah whereas now anyone can set up whatever they want and stick it online and look great can't they well look great questionable um but yeah but you know it's funny because i the last couple of um sort of things i've i've done sort of public speaking wise i have brought this example up because i think it's really important that we remember remember this with you know with old sort of mad men days of advertising like you've just said they had the money they had the budget to invest in real creative teams.

23:35Automotive as an industry, let's take that as an example. Volkswagen, tone of voice, how clever the creative was. I mean, that was a bunch of art directors in a room thrashing it out probably for a week, you know, with the doors closed and the whiteboards up. And, you know, copywriters, you know, really sort of interrogating line after line before they went live with anything, with any advertising campaign. And the reason I bring this example up, because you see car ads now, and it probably is an AI generated. It's probably a digital showroom of some sorts, right? Well, they used to spend a fortune on beautiful productions, didn't they?

24:15With amazing locations. Yeah. Whereas now, yeah, they have the cars in ridiculous places, and you know it's AI. Yeah, and it's just the price. The sign-off, the call to action is just the price. oh that's great you know you just don't feel inspired at all do you yeah but as in back in the day and this is the power of good branding is that you lean into brand personality and it means that you can really sort of step up with that creative and be brave because you know who you are as a brand you know your audience and it allows you to be more creative and what we've lost is is because of the big sort of tech businesses we have lost that and we've been forced into huge rollout pieces where we've created multiple assets more than ever before for multiple platforms and it becomes wallpaper.

25:08Any creative though, any designer, any illustrator, any copywriter, you know, that are all feeling threatened with AI would of course say the same as what we're saying is that, you know, there's something beautiful in a piece of work that somebody a human has spent hours pouring the heart into you know it's it just it hits different you know they used to do sort of three or four shots a day but it would all be you know it wouldn't be any digital photography it would be just it would be creative yeah absolutely old school now I mean they're shooting sort of 60 shots a day aren't they this is what I'm this is exactly the situation I'm in on set as well because you you want to try and get you don't want to hinder the output but you want to obviously try and get as much content as you can so it lasts you for longer because you know as head of brand or head of marketing or anyone that's in a similar role to me will all feel under the same pressure yeah absolutely from ceo person or md saying we need more for less can you remember the point that e-commerce kind of stopped being the add-on and became the main event i think that happened pretty quickly i think that happened within within the within the year or the two years of really people building their sites it happened that quick you know we've seen the same with AI but you know that's that immediate rush to launch yeah you know chat was the you know came came out and was accessible straight on people's phones and then all of a sudden Google are rushing as well they're launching their AI and that's how quick it moves and I do remember it being the same for e-commerce whether they were good or not is a different question but they needed to have presence on there because the competition had presence online and that was just too much of a dent in income to pass up on you know there was just no way that people would lose out on such a large volume of possible sales and reaching new audiences.

27:05And to start with a lot of retailers used to use sort of still lives of images didn't they not they didn't actually have models for a lot of it where do you think that shift came from because obviously we will talk about it going up and back down again but you know e-commerce has become such a mainstream area you know for models to work in how did that sort of happen with with brands realizing that models sold clothes again pretty early I mean I feel that brands have always felt that models are best suited you know from from a I'm trying to think again around what you're wearing at the time gorgeous couture was such a big movement as well particularly it was a Manchester brand and I remember going on to their site and just being like wow that looks unreal and it was literally like I don't know what the coding was of that site at the time it was very something very different to what we all all of others had but it was almost like a scrolling and you see it on Bimbry Lola now and you see it on Zara sites we have the scrolling models you know with showing the collection and it was like that you run your cursor over and it sort of moved and all the models moved with it and it was really really cool and eye-catching and of course their their products didn't have much hanger appeal really yeah when I saw in Selfridges it looked fine but on a model wow it completely came to life of course it would because it it was all about the bias cut right it was all silks and drapery type fabrics and it was the beautiful you know cut out backs and the you know the ribbons and it was it was gorgeous evening wear which of course really comes to life on you know the female body and the curves and then and it's not the same on a mannequin no no you know and I think you know at the time when I used to work for I was a showroom manager just around the corner from here actually at um Blue Stocking and at the time we just had to get things on the site and it was all just ghost mannequin, which looked terrible, you know, but it was just a matter of getting it onto the site.

29:10The shift from doing stills and doing flat lays and things like that, again, shifted pretty quickly because your competitors were just already doing it. Like immediately you could see how much better your product was showing up.

29:30And what, from a brand point of view, really, what does a model bring to e-commerce beyond simply showing the clothes? There's something undeniable, right, about, you know, a good model. Let's take Kate Moss, right? She just stands for something straight away, doesn't she? You know that whatever she's going to be wearing is just going to not only just look amazing, but she's going to give it that edge, right? That Britishness, the rock and roll, you know, she's going to bring attitude to the clothes. so you you want the model to really represent your brand as well and it's there's something that with a good model as well there's there's that look into the camera the way they connect with the photographer that you just can't get with ai certainly not at this not at this point in time and there is a arguably there is a place for ai but line if i'd said that i've not recently been doing tests and things like that but and i think there's a place for it but certainly not for leading content certainly not for leading campaigns what you really want from a model is for them to just give is to tell a story that sounds really cliche right but it's all about the story isn't it it's the story yeah it's the narrative because that's what that's that's what we love as humans we love to buy into stories we remember stories you know I remember stories from my grandma she used to run this pub back in the day in the war days and she'd tell me about the american soldiers coming in and the uniforms they wore and the and the the dancing and the music and the piano but all of a sudden i was there right and and this is what we have to do with content especially flat content and we're in a digital world how do we humanize how do we bring something to life and it's through storytelling and you can only really storytell a campaign through a human model and a good model that's going to really bring something because in our recent autumn winter campaign you know we had amazing models but one in particular you could tell she'd done drama and acting before because what we do need is motion we need video a lot more video content than ever before now as well you need someone to move naturally you need someone to bring the story to life you need someone that's confident to do that have to be like they are like actors they're playing a role at the end of the day on set and you're right no one just shoot stills anymore no you know they're always going to be taking video yeah so you need someone who's not who's who can move naturally who's comfortable with with motion i think even with stills a model needs to move you've got to have that fluidity and that engagement with the camera which then creates you know trust and relatability exactly that you know you and also for pretty london as an example you know a lot of our fabrications are natural we use a lot of bamboo we're known for bamboo I love that it's so soft oh it's beautiful oh it's gorgeous yeah and you know and we get such an amazing response from from women and and men we do menswear as well that wear the products because it's just like wow it's just unbelievably comfortable and it's great for it's breathable it's great for women in menopause and all that sort of stuff as well but I guess that comes across when we were you know when we were shooting sort of econ and models would put the garments on for the first time and like I say we use a lot of natural fabrications and you know comfort softness quality are all our sort of values really straight away their response was wow this feels amazing yeah so you knew then on set that they would bring that to life you know and you can only really sort of feel that if you're asking them to put some horrible scratchy lacy thing on that they don't feel comfortable in well I mean I suppose even that they've got a responsibility to sell it in but you know but that I suppose that versus sort of AI is the difference yeah yeah because they can show the right emotion to the right fabrication to the right story so you've worked with loads of models in e-commerce what makes a good e-commerce model in particular when I joined Pretty U London we decided to just refresh everything and so I shot 275 or something around that number products with my creative lead um we reshot a lot of skews across two weeks I think it was across two studios with two lots of crews and we had numerous models because we wanted to show variation in age and skin tone and body shape and all of that sort of amazing stuff as as all brands should of course um and we had such a great vibe on set as well you know I think bringing the energy yeah to what can be long and drawn out days um because they are multiple shots yeah they are you know and and so to keep the energy I think is probably often overlooked as a really good as a really good sort of yeah because you need to then be you know everyone's you know by the end of the day everyone's getting tired you know but actually you need to keep the photographer inspired the crew inspired and the music layers really ideally lots of haribo on set um but you know that's the thing i think it's underrated or often mislooked of how important good positive energy is from a model yeah yeah and you all feed from each other as well don't you so that's super important back to ai i mean why are brands so drawn to it everyone's obviously now starting to experiment with it so tell me what's going on oh wow i mean that's a big question Tessa I guess to thinking about your first part of that question which is why are why we suddenly turn into it I think because because we can't ignore it is probably the first knee-jerk answer the fear of like back in the day of competitors taking over you know knowledge is power so knowing what a new tool is platform software outputs whatever whatever we want to call it, knowing what that, you know, what that is, gives us the choice of whether we go all in on black or whether we go all in on red or a bit of both.

35:47I think everyone's fighting to understand as much as they can and the implications of their role, their output, and also of any benefits commercially. And I think it's a mixture of all of those things. And it's also difficult with technology, isn't it? Because we all know the more technology is developed, the cheaper it becomes. So do you put the massive lot of money into something now that perhaps could be a lot cheaper down the line? And you think, I wish we waited six months or... And there's always going to be like everything that's fluid in this digital world is forever changing. It's going to take on new life and it'll keep moving and it'll keep developing.

36:33I mean, do you think consumers actually really care whether the model they're seeing is real or not? Yes, I think they do. That's good to hear. I mean, I guess, OK, maybe they do. Ultimately, if you could bring your product price down and say all our models are AI, it would be an interesting insight piece to do because I suppose everybody with the cost of living now the the economy that we're in I'm not bothered if I see it on a human model I want it I want that top five pounds cheaper if that's what it's going to that's the benefit to me as a consumer given the choice would you always choose for something to benefit you personally rather than see the bigger picture of the wider impact it depends on the audience segment that you go after we believe after doing a big deep dive on our customer and our audience and who they are and what are the brands they buy and where they live and what the media they consume we believe from that piece of work that they do care and so we have to box clever with with budget right and it's almost we lead human first always but do we do we test other colorways of a garment on ai do Do we test flat lays with AI?

37:50Do we test a different model shape with AI? Because that will save me from doing two weeks in studio as opposed to one. Yeah. So that is where I'm currently at at the minute. Is it really more efficient if you did decide to use, you know, digital models, AI models rather than human models? By the time you've done that, actually the cost and the time doing it probably at the moment isn't any different or could even be more. Really good point. And I'm, like I say, I'm looking into commercials now, this week, actually, and making that comparison of, okay, against time, human, you know, prepping for shoots.

38:33What does that equate to? What in reality does that cost saving look like? Yeah. if any yeah and at the minute it's it's going to be based on volume so we've been for a few years now working with a company um where we shoot the model we shoot the model in just flesh-colored underwear and they then clothe the model but they pay usage for every time they use yeah so digital twin yes so they're still the model is still getting paid for all of the use as they should as they should yes but they're not shooting everything every time because it's easier for them to do that is that something that yes this is what I'm in talks with now you know I'm scoping out really and you know as as long as the as long as the the model exists in real life as long as that that you know the identity is human yeah and they're getting paid for it rightly so because it's their it's their idea it's their you know and they and they're being paid properly then okay this gives us some flexibility and we have to be agile in our business yeah but this is where this irresponsibility of the freedom I mean I call it the age of opinion right which is everywhere oh I rushed to the comments couldn't wait to I ran to the comments you know because people can't wait to see what other people are saying about a celebrity or the bad mouthing them or the you know whatever it is and you think about you know after advertising of course then came you know influencer marketing but no regulation again so we've got a particular they did put ad on don't they now which kind of i think you know as as a consumer absolutely i want my daughter to know that actually that person she thinks is amazing is advertising that because she's being paid not because she likes the product but then as a an agent working for a content creator obviously that's watering that down isn't it so it's not so authentic but they've got to do something like that with AI haven't they well they do but I guess let's take a very famous family you know that would literally influence in our young girls to change their body shape yeah that's wild to me yeah that's kind of wild you know and you know building and selling a product based around that product naturally emphasizing a part of the body when in fact years later for it to come out that it was actually synthetic, that where's the regular, where's the off-come there?

41:06It's that irresponsibility for me that bothers me and that's why I urge people to really look at the content they're consuming and not to feel sloppy AI essentially because that's not a good place to be headed into.

41:27I mean, at the moment, and, you know, for the last few years, e-commerce is where, you know, a lot of models earn the bulk of their income. It's like their bread and butter. How concerned should the industry be about what's happening here? Is it going to be a downturn in real models needed? I think there will be. In that space for a bit. For a bit. And that's the key. Everything always comes full circle, like trends, like fashion. we were obsessed with saving time and making things more convenient for us however we then soon realized that that's actually not best for longevity for loyalty for brand buying in my instance obviously in fashion and so we soon then realize we come back to oh actually it's it's the old traditional sort of way of of working that that produces the the best and and you know i do believe that things will come in in full circle now will it have an effect immediately on the industry i think it probably will because there'll be a lot of you know business owners under the brand you know or creative there might be a surge of oh this is this is amazing this is a new tech technology that's gonna i don't need to hire in that production team anymore i can reduce my production budget by 50 you know and there will be that eagerness to to to do that but then i think I think that the results will speak for themselves because it won't work for everything.

42:59It won't work for everything. And there's a lot to be said for art directing, you know, and bringing out that human element on set. And there will be frustration with AI, as in we have frustration with other tech that just actually has become a hindrance to us rather than a help. We think that something's going to make our lives easier and it's going to drive better results. And in reality, it's probably a blend of both. So for a little while, maybe human models are going to become a premium rather than a default. Or the AI twin, you know, that might be where they actually have a digital version of themselves.

43:36And that's obviously what's used en masse. And then for high-end campaigns and, like I say, video, motion, et cetera, et cetera, then it's in real life and it's a physical presence on set. So I think there's going to be a mix of both. again we're now seeing these trends coming back of craftsmanship and curation and sense of care and you know sewing bee on tv the pottery show on tv you know the bake off you know it's this crafty kind of appreciation of human craft that's going to drive more value in the end that's where i'd say that you know you've got companies and brands like toast who i love their sort of email strategy is brilliant so it's amazing by the way because there's always some different there's different content they really champion the you know the collaborators they really champion the natural yarns and the slower pace of life they're telling the story of telling the story you know handmade pieces that are limited edition only and in a world of where there's mass of everything we all want just a little piece of something special and that really is what ultimate luxury is about It's about that Hermes bag.

44:45It's about the Kelly. It's about the Rolex we have to be on a waiting list for, right? It's things that are worth waiting for, are worth paying more for, ultimately. Going looking forward, how do you see e-commerce evolving over the next five years? I think we have to give more experience. I think we have to create more brand worlds. And there's some brands that are currently doing, some companies are already doing this very, very well. One is our competitors, so I'm not going to mention them. obviously you're doing it better yeah well we will yeah I mean we're in development for our sort of next wave really of rebrand but um but Bimbrilola you know is a oh god people that know me are sick of me talking about Bimbrilola but I can't not because what they do is so brilliant they show the world their their world and they bring you into that world and it's highly creative it's highly collaborative they have a really strong sort of charitable arm as well and I think we have to kind of go more down that route of building more brand worlds where people kind of want to hang out they want to spend more time on there yeah and it's not just about a pure shopping experience it's about us giving back yeah so I would say more in that world making it as digitally tactile as possible and just and give like I say giving back to understanding what's going to what's going to be a benefit to them so if you're a sleepwear brand or a nightwear brand like we are is it a meditation podcast or meditation so i list on spotify yeah adding value giving back you know it's almost becoming an all-encompassing brand world on on site so not just a site built for selling products but a site to experience too and do you think we'll get people back to the high street unfortunately we can't say everything's a generational fault no we can't however you know my my grandma and and that generation were big up on community it was a local pub it was a local high street it was popping down the shops and having a chat with somebody it was so important to them we don't we run into the supermarket and do everything as we can't wait to get out and if god forbid we see someone we know in there right you're changing aisles you're changing aisles you're picking up spuds when you didn't need spuds yeah i think we have our communities online now yeah and the big thing about having physical stores and bricks and mortar were they emulated and encouraged community and community build it was where people went to socialize i feel we need to think about the high street differently and we need to look at almost like showroom spaces yeah where we're mixing both you know it was part of the omnichannel kind of fix right it's part of that sort of customer journey piece when they there's still an aspect of being able to showcase and and and present a physical product but yet it doesn't have to be it's not manned by loads of staff or it's not you know you you still order online whilst whilst that you know it could also be for buyers it's be it's be you know consumers as well it's a space that's a collaborative space where yeah I think that that there's something there where it's blending both worlds will start to happen.

48:04Looking back, Danny, what has surprised you most about how the industry's changed? I was head of brand for Boohoo Man. I've worked for fast fashion companies. What was kind of upsetting was the speed of fast fashion, I guess. But I am sort of thrilled that that's turning a corner. You can feel it turning a corner. you can you know you can I see it I see it with young people I see how they shop I think the the other sort of aspects as well that was kind of disappointing is how we just went so online you know that now we are crawling we are sort of pulling that back like I say with being at Boo Man you know surprised that how how much of events worked for us how much music events pop-ups signings with you know an artist or whatever a collab all of that kind of stuff in real life events I am glad that they are now coming back as well and again it's the younger generation that are loving it I mean of course they want it to they want to do it for the gram right let's let's you know it's all about creating content but at least it's human to human sort of content again if you were starting out now what would you focus on learning it's craft and and the reason that I saying I'm trying to think why I said that so sort of um naturally it's it's around down to even typography anything typography or building or creating a bespoke font something that can't be you know replicated something that is unique to something is worth more surely yeah so you know why and try why try to compete on a on a digital side when you don't understand you know not having that you know that heart in craft of I feel like you really need to have that to understand how to you know amplify it digitally or how to to teach others yes you know what I mean yes I do that sound too deep and too vague I'm not sure that's really important because it's only when you know the true process of something that you appreciate it and finally what advice would you give to brands navigating this moment responsibly?

50:22Oh, AI, I think it's don't move too quickly. You know, everything that's worth something takes time. And even though it looks so appealing now, maybe just try not to action too quickly and really think about how you can use it responsibly. It's there to help, not to create. It's there to support, not to begin. and that's how I'm looking at AI.

50:51Danny Bramall, thank you so much. Oh, you're more than welcome.