Francine Champagne, President of Vision Models LA

0:02Welcome to the Business of Modelling, the podcast where we explore the fascinating world of the modelling industry. I'm Tessa Dewing, Managing Director of Sandra Reynolds, a commercial model agency celebrating its 50th year of business.

0:21Francine Champagne is a name that resonates across the fashion and talent industry. with a career journey that spans leading elite LA, co-founding the boutique agency Champagne Trot and now serving as president of high fashion agency Vision Los Angeles. Francine has become a respected architect of modern and model management, involved in forging the careers of stars such as Cameron Diaz, Molly Sims and Ashton Kutcher. Hi Francine, it's lovely to meet you in person. Thank you so much.

0:56Francine Champagne: Nice to meet you. Who were you before the agency, before all of this? Where did you grow up? So I grew up in New Orleans, Louisiana. And I grew up in a very tight knit family. And I just loved the fashion industry from a little girl. there was a woman that lived in my neighborhood that was a professional high fashion model and she would travel around the world and I just looked up to her so much and I think she really got me interested in the business to begin with she introduced me to my agent that eventually the person that became my agent right okay so you started out as a model I did yeah How did that journey happen?

1:47Francine Champagne: Well, the journey was very interesting because during that time, I realized that I really did not want to be a model. I loved the other side of the business. I loved the scouting part. I loved finding models. I was so interested in people's faces. and as a model it definitely allowed me to get into the the industry and meet so many people and learn the back side of it so it was great and I'm happy I did that and that was all still back in New Orleans so I started in New Orleans yeah what kind of work were you doing you know it was in New Orleans very tiny market it was fashion it was considered fashion at that point but then I got a contract to go to Japan and I lived in Osaka for several months.

2:40Francine Champagne: That's a very different culture and market. It was so different and I learned everything there. I really did. It's a tough market. They keep you busy and so I learned a lot there and then from there I went to Paris, from there New York. And that's when I decided this is not for me as far as being a model, but I love, love, love the industry. So let's see what else I can do. I love doing runway. I think that was my favorite part. And again, because it was back in the eighties, it was so different. And being in New Orleans, being in such a small market, I did a lot of the shows there. When I started traveling, I did not do many shows.

3:25Francine Champagne: I was not in that part of the business. It was more photography. But what I loved most, it was doing the shows. And which agencies were you with? So I was with New Orleans Artist Representatives. And then in Paris, I was with Mademoiselle. And then Elite New York. and then from there I moved to Los Angeles and started working at Elite Los Angeles as an assistant. So you were modeling, you stopped at the point you stopped modeling when you moved to LA. I did. Okay so why did you move to LA? I met some great friends in Paris when I was traveling in Paris and that were in the music industry and actually that was something that I thought maybe maybe I want to get into that business.

4:14Francine Champagne: But, so be it, it didn't happen. I ended up going right back into the fashion industry. So your first job was at Elite LA as an assistant. And then you worked your way up from there. I did. It was so much fun. I worked in the new faces division. As I told you, I loved the scouting aspect of our business. And so that's where I fit right in. And we represented models like Elizabeth Berkley, who became an actress. Cameron Diaz was one of my girls that I took care of. And it was just such a fun time. The market in Los Angeles at that point was very commercial. It was not high fashion. And so we were busy doing a lot of different catalog type jobs and such.

5:03Francine Champagne: I loved it, but I always knew in the back of my head that there was something more. And we were hoping that something would build in Los Angeles more fashion-wise. And eventually it happened. So, but we had a great time at Elite Los Angeles. I think we were very strong commercial type agency at the time. And it's a lot of fun. Worked with a great group of people that I'm still really close with today. And the structure of elite is very confusing, isn't it? Because you've got the, it's split. So you've got the four North Americans. And it wasn't that way back then. It was just elite. And you didn't have two different owners.

5:45Francine Champagne: It was John Casablanca at the time. And what he was great with, you know, he developed that look of the year contest, which I worked on several years. I would travel and do those events. and you learn so much about the scouting worldwide. And so they really, they had a great knack of finding amazing talent all over the world. But back then it was just elite. New York, Paris, it wasn't split up. And then eventually two different owners took over and split it between the two. So it is confusing today. I didn't realize that actually they've also got women, society. Yeah, 360. I had no idea when I looked into it.

6:32Yes, it's definitely interesting. Yeah. And, you know, just such a massive, massive machine.

6:37Francine Champagne: And that's the Elite Paris part of it. Yeah. That's not the Elite New York. Elite New York is totally separate. And what are the pros and cons of working for such a massive network? So even at the time, I think it's difficult to work with a network because there are so many people coming in and out. And as an agent and as a booker, you really want to invest in these models' lives. And you just don't have the time to create that relationship and to manage their careers properly. Because you have so many people coming in and out. And to network, you are responsible to taking on everyone that they send you.

7:23Francine Champagne: Right. So it's difficult. You weren't necessarily picking and choosing the models that you felt would work best in your market. You were given the girls that were represented in your market. Right. And unfortunately, there's a little infighting between the agencies. Yeah. For example, Elite New York. I'm saying elites. It's all of the network type agencies. If they have offices in New York and then Paris, Los Angeles, they're all fighting for the same job. And it becomes extremely confusing. And not only that, I don't think it benefits the models. Because what if our Los Angeles agency doesn't think that model is quite right for that market, but yet we still have to represent them?

8:14Francine Champagne: We're not doing them any favors by having to represent them. You know, when you are an agency like ourselves, Vision, we get to choose who we feel we can do the best job with. And I think that's the advantage of being the type of agency that we are. But then I guess the advantages of being with a big agency like or network like Elite was, as you said, being able to travel around the world and seeing the Elite model look and, you know, scouting markets. That is great. But today it's different. You know, now, small agencies like myself, ourselves, we have a network with all of the top agencies all over the world.

8:57Francine Champagne: So we can work with whoever we want to. And I think that's a big advantage. And do the best for that model. Yes. Based on where they're going to work. So we are truly managing their career.

9:14What inspired you to launch Champagne Trot?

9:16Francine Champagne: So at the time, the president of Elite Los Angeles, Valerie Trott, came to me. And I think the business was changing. And we were frustrated with being stuck in this box and the way that everyone thought we needed to do business in Los Angeles. And she had ideas where she wanted a commercial division. And you were a director at Elite at that point. I was a director at that point. And we just felt that we could do more. And I think that that pushed us to do our own thing. The good news was we had developed fantastic relationships with our models. And so they did want to follow us. And we fortunately started our agency with a great group of people and models.

10:08Francine Champagne: and again it was definitely more commercial type market at that point but we did quite well we had a good time doing it and it was fun starting your own thing you know you can make the decisions based on what you feel is beneficial for these models and it's not given to you and you're not following strict rules and guidelines so you opened your own offices yes here and yeah yeah And that lasted for a good seven years. And unfortunately, something happened and we ended up parting ways. And thus, Vision came along. So Vision acquired Champagne Trot, is that correct? No, Vision, well, not acquired, but yeah, I guess we became Vision.

11:00Francine Champagne: Yes. Yeah. My partner left the industry business. she retired and so then I kind of took over renamed it had some other people come in to help me rebrand rebuild the company and it was my focus really to create something different I did not want to do the same thing over again which was being a commercial type agency in Los Angeles right we had LA Models we have Wilhelmina they were all doing the same thing and I thought let's do something different. So what sets Vision apart then from other agencies in LA? We have some great competition here today. You know, there have been wonderful agencies that have been built here at this point.

11:45Francine Champagne: I do think we have great relationships with clients, people that have known us for a long time. We're very stable. My team, most of my staff has been with me for over 10 years. So there's a lot of stability there. We know a lot of people. And I think we really focus on the management of each talent and helping them build their careers. Everyone says that today. I know that. But I do think we take pride and our interest is in really having a close relationship with the family. I think that's super important. I really believe, and my team really believes that we make sure these kids stay in school until they graduate high school and then decide, is this really something that I want to do?

12:36Francine Champagne: Because if it is, they will have to take some time off of continuing their studies and traveling and figuring it out if this is truly meant for them. So I think we invest a lot of time in development and I think that sets us apart. Yeah. And I think actually you can always tell a good agency by how long their bookers and staff have been there. I think that's really important. There's so many that just go through such a high turnover. There's always, you know, the doors always open and close, you know, people are going in and out and we don't have that in our agency, which I'm proud of. Yeah, absolutely.

13:15So how many models do you represent and what are the divisions that you have?

13:18Francine Champagne: So we have a commercial to tv commercial division that represents not only our models but the actors and actresses they represent probably over 100 people we have a men's division and they probably represent close to 100 men and the women's division probably the same amount yeah give or take you know usually at a given time we have maybe 40 to 50 of our people in town living we do have many people based here in Los Angeles but we also represent people that live in New York or Europe I don't like to have a lot of what I say ghosts on my wall yeah that people that are never they're never here it's just we represent them just for their faces sure but it doesn't make sense to me so the ones that we show on our website are truly models that we represent and are available what percentage are you mother agents who maybe 50 i would say i'll say about 50 we have our scout tony perkins lives in new york and he has been in the industry as long if not longer than me and he worked at next for years ford and he's worked with me since the beginning He actually helped me start Vision Los Angeles.

14:43In such a competitive space, what would you say are the key business strategies that help an agency thrive?

14:49Francine Champagne: Being creative, you know, being open minded because things are changing constantly. So we have to be open to change and looks, you know, that has changed so much over the years. Sometimes you can't keep up with it, what people are looking for. And I think being professional, you know, I think you just, we have to keep that tight. And I think we obviously know how fickle the fashion industry can be. I think some people can or used to maybe look down a bit on LA as being a bit of a celebrity saturated market. What would you say makes LA special for models? And what are the advantages of having an agency on the West Coast?

15:32Francine Champagne: Well, today, there are so many clients that are here now. They've moved here. I think COVID really helped us out with that because we could shoot outside. You know, we have great weather most of the time. So that was extremely helpful for our industry. I think a lot of clients moved here. Again, weather. People want to be here. It's a great lifestyle. The disadvantage is driving. So many people don't want to have to drive. And here, it's so big. I didn't realize that. It's so spread out. It's so spread out. You really do need to be able to drive. But it also gives you a sense of independence. You can get into your car and go to Santa Monica or travel anywhere.

16:16Francine Champagne: We have the mountains. We have the beaches. It's a beautiful place to live. It's expensive, yes, but so is New York. I think, you know, between New York and L.A., totally two different lifestyles. I do feel like LA has blossomed into a much stronger industry here today than it was 20 years ago you know in order to become a high fashion model you had to go to New York today you really don't have to you can start in Los Angeles and go straight to Europe to do the shows you know there's no reason that you need to start in New York anymore and how do you balance between the creativity and commercial demands so between the the editorial jobs and the and the sort of commercial I think we just as a team discuss every project um the type of model that we represent or not we're we're just not going to work with the clients like the Walmarts or there will be some of those jobs that come through our commercial division and then maybe one someone is right for it but that's not who we cater to so we kind of hone into the type of clients that we want our models to work with how do you explain that to a model if they suddenly get a request for a I don't know twenty thousand dollars something from Walmart and you're going actually this is no we're not taking this because today is different it's hard to turn down that money and now it's not as before you had to worry about image so much.

17:55Francine Champagne: Today a lot of these things come and go, these ads, that people don't even see them. I hate to say that, but that's the truth. As an agent, it's a nightmare to get hold of this stuff you do. You can even find it sometimes. We weigh out the options. I mean, obviously someone like a Lindsay Wixson, she's an iconic model. We've started her. We have Madison Hedrick, who we started at 15 as well. She's been a huge successful model for so many years, over 15 years, both of them. So we have to weigh what is better for their image. Image comes first. And then we weigh out the options financially. So we take each situation and discuss it.

18:47What would you say is the most rewarding part of what you do?

18:51Francine Champagne: I think seeing a young girl, you know, living out her dream and becoming successful and having financial success too. And it lasting, you know, having a lasting career. So many of these models come in and go out very quickly. I think building a lasting career, that is the most rewarding thing for us to see. And when you're scouting new talent, what are the key qualities or signs you're looking out for? How do you recognize the potential? What does it take to be a vision model? That's changed a lot as well. It used to be all about looks, height, sizes, measurements, and today it's opened up. I think today it's very important, the personality, you know, the energy that that person exudes.

19:43Francine Champagne: I think they have to have other things going on. You can't just be a pretty face anymore or a unique face. I think you have to be intelligent. You have to have other aspirations because it makes you more interesting. And I think for us, that is very important. We work with models that we feel have that are multi-talented, not just looking to be a model. And that, yeah, leads me on to obviously personal branding now has become a huge part of the conversation. How do you help your talent build a presence that feels authentic, but also appeals to clients? Do you have those conversations at the very beginning?

20:26Absolutely do.

20:27Francine Champagne: And, you know, we don't push the Instagram so much, maybe six years, seven, eight years. It was very important for the girls because they were competing with the Instagram stars or models. I say girls just because I'm always dealing with the women more than the men. But I, you know, we kind of discuss that. I think there's for us, we want there to be a little bit of mystery. about the models and we really push them to be authentic in their presentation of their image online yeah and we help guide them with that so it's super important for us for these models to have that intact what sets apart those models who succeed over time from the ones that do just kind of come into the industry and then I definitely think it's um there's some natural gift you know the true successful models really do know how to work a camera.

21:29Francine Champagne: They know their angles. They know how to pose. They have a great presence about themselves. You know, their energy, the clients that they work with, the photographers, the art directors, makeup artists, they love being around that person. So personality is key. those girls you those models you feel it when they walk in the door if they have that type of presence and um yes it's it's easy to see for us just because we've been doing it for so long but it's it sets them apart from just being a pretty face yeah yeah and they have to want it of course as well don't they absolutely they have to be passionate about it but sometimes Sometimes the ones who are the most nonchalant about it, people like that too.

22:20And I find when I'm scouting, it's always the ones that have no idea that they think that they can be a model. They're like, really? Yes. Whereas the ones that are all...

22:32Francine Champagne: It's like I said about the mystery. Yeah. You know, there's something that you can't quite touch. Yeah. And I think that's interesting to people. Absolutely. Yeah. And what do you think the biggest mistakes new models make are?

22:48Francine Champagne: Spending their money too quickly. Thinking that this will last forever. Not preparing for the future. Yeah. Not continuing to educate themselves in other businesses. I think that is a huge mistake. I think constantly these models should be doing other things to grow and to build their lives. Because at some point it will stop and they should be ready to take on. Well, the work changes as well, doesn't it? And it's something you can almost pick up and put down all the way through your life. But it's true. But you need something else. And you need the tools to be able to get out there and do it.

23:32Francine Champagne: So I think that's probably the biggest mistake. And for us, because we are so keen on the management, we try to guide them early on and educate them on that. Usually when we're starting out with them, especially if we're mother agents, we're working with their parents as well. And so we explained the importance of saving, dealing with taxes, understanding the taxes, being an independent contractor, and education, you know, and always being prepared to learn other businesses. And I think just having those conversations constantly with them will build these strong models with great careers that can go on and do other things because they're educated and they're prepared.

24:22Francine Champagne: They've been managed that way. And this is something that I do suggest. Everyone, I think it's important. And even when models come in to meet with our agency and we really want to represent that model, I still think they should see every agency. And every agency that is the type of agency that they want to be with meaning. I think it's important to get out there and educate yourself on meeting the agency and their agents or bookers firsthand. because that model will be working with that team day to day, and they have to feel that relationship. They have to feel that it clicks. And if you just walk into one agency and think, this is it, I don't think you're doing yourself any favors.

25:15Francine Champagne: No, just sign with the first one. I think you need to get out there and see as many people to educate yourself about the process. I think that would be my advice to anyone.

25:35What do you think have been the biggest changes in model management since you came into the industry?

25:41Francine Champagne: It takes so much more time to do small things. And what I mean by that is now we're dealing with, you're not talking to people, you're not building relationships. over the phone with clients anymore. You are emailing. So those relationships are harder to build and it's tough to connect with people that way if you don't have that personal relationship. And the back and forth and the emails and the, it just seems like every little thing takes longer. And then you have added usages that we never had before. Internet, you know, all of those things come into it um that have that make it more difficult so i think those changes are big for us and were you uh were you in the industry before digital oh yes yeah so you know the polaroids and oh my goodness yes yes of course i mean i started in the 80s yeah yeah and so yeah no computer i mean you walk into the agency too any agency and people were going crazy the energy yeah you know everyone's on the phone lots of smoking yes and lots of round tables with the charts you know you wrote everything down you had to turn in vouchers you know that everything is now digital and online but sometimes it's great I mean I can't imagine going back to having to write invoices and facts and you know but sometimes it's easier and sometimes it's more difficult Yeah, absolutely.

27:16Francine Champagne: Good and bad. Good and bad. L.A. used to be seen as more commercial, as you've already said, but now it's a fashion hotspot in its own right. So how do you see it now compared to New York, London, Paris, Milan? I think we're up there with them. I think we're equivalent for sure. I think you can start a great career here. I do think we need those markets. I think we all need each other. I think it's great balance. I think sometimes the girls need a break to get out of the runway scene when they're doing it. It seems like shows are constantly happening, by the way. There's always a show season. So I think it's great for these models to get back to a market where they can stay put for a bit, do some work, make some money, do some great pictures, have some great image stuff come out.

28:07Francine Champagne: so I think we all play a part in the success of a model so I think we need New York we need Paris we need Milan and I think we need LA today for sure

28:26what do you see as a mother agency role a mother agency always used to be the agency in the city that got the model the work sure where they were and now of course there's scouts all over the place there are there are how do people know we we set our

28:40Francine Champagne: we try to be different by as i explained earlier really focusing on management having a relationship with the family so that they know that they have a home base they have someone to turn to that we can help them whenever they need information they need some help with management as far as other markets. We advise them as to the other markets where they will be signed. We set up those relationships with those agencies. We help them with their finances in the end. So as a mother agent, we play a big part in their career. So it's more than just booking them in our market. We really, you know, put a lot of effort into managing their careers fully.

29:32Yeah. And I think it's so important to have someone like, you know, like that, have a really good mother agent that sort of understands and can field jobs because, you know, you can have three agencies that wanting them on option for the same dates and that, you know, that can get really...

29:48Francine Champagne: Yeah, things have changed today. And now we see everything, which, you know, if there's a model that's represented in multiple markets we see all of their options yeah and if there are questions we can always jump in and discuss it so it's good

30:09now there's a lot of discussion around ai cgi models virtual influencers now how do you see

30:16Francine Champagne: the impact of this i don't see it quite yet i know it's coming and what do we have to do to prepare ourselves for it I'm not really quite sure no I just know that being the way we are I want to be open and um be ready for it so we're discussing it you know were any vision models um involved in the recent H &M project no no no no I hope I mean for for our industry that people want to see real human beings and it be authentic and maybe CGI or whatever AI will become more and more realistic but I think if you can't touch something I just can't imagine that it will take over. And what's one change in the fashion and modeling industry that genuinely excites you now?

31:09Francine Champagne: Boy, I just, I was hoping that the change with body types would stick. Yeah. So at a time we were excited more about that, that it wasn't, the industry wasn't so focused on measurements. I'll call it that. But it seems like we backtracked. Yeah. And we're going back to that. So right now, I'd like to be excited about going back to where we were a few years ago. And when you look ahead five or even 10 years, where do you see the role of a scout or booker heading? Do you think that the human element will always be central? Or do you think that could be more data driven down the line? I think you have to have a relationship with someone that is managing your career.

32:00Francine Champagne: so I think it's imperative to have a human being do that so it's just like when for during COVID we had to do zoom calls with models yeah you just it's awful it wasn't the same it's not the same you have to feel the energy of that person and meet them and I think that proved to us that that doesn't work no and I can't do these podcasts remotely I have to be you have to be in person because you feel the energy of that person absolutely and um you just get a sense of that person yeah better and more complete

32:42so over the years you've worked with some remarkable talent which individuals or moments

32:47Francine Champagne: really stand out in your memory there's so many it's really hard to say that's the problem with speaking to people that have been in the industry. I mean, you know, okay, so starting way back, Cameron Diaz, when she booked her first theatrical, you know, when she booked the mask, we, as a team back at Elite, knew she was so special. And she was a catalog model. She was not a fashion model. She did more of the catalog work. She did go to Paris for a bit, but she wasn't really known as a high fashion model. But we knew she had something so unique. She was so special. Her personality was just enormous.

33:29Francine Champagne: And so when we pushed her into going out for that, she was at first hesitant. And then she did it and she had some training and she was fantastic. So actually, I just saw her last week. So it was just kind of fun to see her. But that was exciting for us to see her transformation and for her to become such a huge star, you know, knowing that she was special, but then seeing her evolve and become who she is today is wonderful. I have so many other models I can mention. Lindsay Wixen, Madison Hedrick. There's so many. This goes on. Chrissy Teigen, I even represented it for a long time. So those relationships I built, I feel, you know, I'll never forget them.

34:25Francine Champagne: I think they've all become such successful, unique people, models, and it's fun to see what they do in life later. Specific jobs, I mean, obviously, Lindsay Wixson, when she was, we took her first digitals and we posted them on models.com and Stephen Mizell booked her immediately. Did he from those? That was super fun. Madison Hedrick, we always knew she would be such a star because she was so absolutely beautiful, American, gorgeous girl. And then when she booked her, one of her first jobs was with Prada. She did the show and then print campaign. we were so proud of that as well so those are a few just a few there's so many I'm sure I'm sure um and if you could wave a magic wand and take part in any project past present or future what would your dream booking or campaign look like you've probably done them all oh my gosh that's such a tough one I have no idea I mean I would just love to see any we do have a few young girls that are just so, they have so much desire to be a star.

35:40I have one that I'm thinking of specifically

35:44Francine Champagne: because she's the daughter of a model that I represented at Elite who did very well and now I represent her daughter and I want her to have so much success because she really wants it and And she's so professional and she's so driven. So if I can book her on something great, that will be... What would it be for her? Mew Mew, Prada, Gucci, Balenciaga, any of those. Any of the great high, high fashion brands. And she deserves it. And I think she'll do it one day. Yeah. And which models would you have dreamed of discovering? I think Carolyn Murphy is a beauty and she has lasted in this business forever and ever so I think that's fantastic um Daria I love her I think she's unique um those are a couple I mean I think Cindy Crawford in her day was just we were happy to represent her at Elite yeah you know we were proud to have her on our roster I didn't work with her directly but um she was an all-american beauty and I love those girls too still today even though you know it's so there are so many types yeah you know but uh that's your favorite I just love all-american beauties yeah yeah and if you had to choose the biggest benefit and the biggest drawback of working in the fashion industry what would they be well benefit it's fun it's very creative you get to surround yourself with creative people who are um have traveled so there's a lot of that um worldly people that interest me um drawback is it's 24 7 you know we are working uh around the clock for these for our models and as it should be but you know sometimes we have to step away and build our own lives you know and have a I have a family and I think I did that way I balanced yeah how did you I did I forced myself and yeah you know my husband is um he's an entrepreneur he really guided me so much when I opened the agency.

38:06Francine Champagne: But he also taught me a lot about balance and having a career and having a family. And so many people in our industry don't do that. And I really wanted that. And I think it benefited me along the way. It gave me some sanity because I was able to walk away from this business that is so fabulous and unique but then I also had that balance of stability and family life. And I think part of being able to do that is building a really great team around you. That's true. I mean I could never have done it without my team. I truly could never have done it without my team that's for sure. And what have been the proudest moments in your career so far?

38:53I think the proudest moments are working with the team that I have.

38:58Francine Champagne: They have, again, been with me for so long. They are truly like family to me. And I think I'm so proud of building this group of talent because they are talented individuals that mean so much to me and I trust them completely yeah that's my proudest part of this business and how do you stay inspired probably it's those people you know it's them and then also bringing in young people yeah to give you a new fresh take on our business yeah because there's always something new and different going on yeah and if we don't keep up with that then we become old news right absolutely so i think it's it's important to bring in the new fresh interesting people and listen to their perspective it's true yeah it's it's great for us for those listening who might dream of being an agent themselves what would be your advice my advice is to reach out start at the bottom learn everything that you can uh today it's so different with kids they don't want to take the time to really learn I'm saying that as a general perspective just because I have two children so I know yeah um it's changed so much I think you need to get in there and start at the bottom and really assist you know learn the business from the ground up put the hours in yes yeah that's the way that you learn really yeah and what do you think um is a type of the type of person that makes a good agent what do they need what skills sometimes you don't know until they're in there um you definitely have to have a great personality I think even though we don't use those phone skills anymore we're going to push it does that frustrate it frustrates me so much time because I think it sets you know I think it helped me in my business I was very friendly with so many of my clients and yeah today they'll still reach out to me and I run the place yeah and I'm not there because I'm not booking models anymore yeah but still they'll reach out to me you know so I think it's super important um and the younger ones don't seem to have those they don't have those skills so I think that's important personality and being being a person that really wants to learn yeah and um the thing is what we don't know is until they get in their their eye yeah that's something that you can't really learn I think you have to either you have it I guess a lot comes with experience with no learning the market yes and seeing other seeing and then some people just have that eye where they can look at someone's face and know that it's the type of model that we're looking for or looking at photographs and knowing those are the type of images that we want branding our agency or helping us create the image of the agency yeah it takes it takes a bit of time to learn to get the feel of that person but I think if you're young and you're creative and you have great energy and social skills it could be a really fun business

42:20fantastic thank you so much thank you francine thank you for taking us inside the world of vision los angeles and sharing the heart behind the agency it's been a true pleasure having this conversation with you today to learn more about francine's work and discover the talent at her agency, visit visionlosangeles.com. As always, thank you for listening. If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with someone who might find it inspiring. See you next time.